October 15, 2024 • 50 mins
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Imagine transforming your workplace into a hub of creativity and purpose, where AI serves as an empowering co-pilot rather than a replacement. In our latest episode, we invite you to discover how global expert Luke Jamieson transitioned from baking pastries to leading dynamic contact centers, all while championing the cause of meaningful employee experiences. Get ready to challenge traditional motivation methods and usher in a human-centered leadership approach that moves beyond the mundane and taps into the vast potential of every team member.
AI isn't just a tool; it's a catalyst for redefining the future of work. Picture a world where organizations shed their task-oriented routines in favor of pursuing purpose-driven goals, enabling employees to connect deeply with their core values. Luke and I discuss how this shift enables intrinsic motivation to flourish, reducing stress, and enhancing job satisfaction. We also delve into the pitfalls of traditional reward systems, advocating for a culture of appreciation and gratitude that fosters transparency and dismantles silos in the workplace.
Our conversation takes a thought-provoking turn as we explore the importance of community-building and collaboration. We highlight the need for leaders to create spaces where growth and interaction thrive, viewing challenges as opportunities rather than obstacles. Join us as we tackle topics ranging from Australia's tall poppy syndrome to innovative evaluation methods in education. Together, we redefine leadership as a journey of shared success, inviting you to engage with our RVA framework to align your personal values with your career goals, driving meaningful and lasting change in your leadership journey.
Huge thank you to Mario Hernández for editing this content and PostFlow for helping me with the clips!
“Change will not come if we wait for some other person, or if we wait for some other time. We are the ones we’ve been waiting for. We are the change that we seek.”
- Barack Obama
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sarah Caminiti (00:07):
Welcome back, listeners, to another episode of
Epochal Growth.
I'm your host, sarah C, and Iam so happy that you're here
Today.
I am thrilled to bring you aconversation with someone who is
truly shaping the future ofwork.
Luth Jamson is a global expertin customer and employee
experience.
He's known for his creativeapproach to leadership and his
(00:28):
insights on how AI istransforming our roles, not
replacing them.
We're deep diving into theimportance of creating space for
purpose-driven work and how AIis revolutionizing leadership,
and why leaders need to focus onappreciation and belonging over
recognition and rewards.
This episode is packed with somany valuable insights you won't
(00:50):
want to miss.
Many of you will recognize Lukefrom the fantastic series with
Michael Madison 2020-ish thatwas on LinkedIn celebrating
leaders within the CX space, andI am so happy that he is now a
part of the Epochal Growthfamily.
All right, listeners, let's getinto it.
Luke Jamieson (01:09):
Well, g'day g'day everyone.
G'day g'day everyone.
My name is Jaand and I am sostoked to finally get to
face-to-face meet Sarah Caminiti.
I am.
What do you want to know aboutme?
I'm just passionate about CXand employee experience and the
future of work and all thethings that come with that, and
(01:31):
I like producing content that Ihope people like, because it's
you know, I think there's somuch drab stuff out here, so it
was awesome to actually get aninvite to be on this one,
because I think this is acracking podcast.
Oh man thank you, thank you.
Sarah Caminiti (01:47):
Well, I think that you do produce content that
people like, because that's howI was introduced to you and
what you're doing, and I thinkthe first thing that I do really
want to know, L, is whathappened.
What was your moment where yourealized you needed to talk
about everything you're sopassionate about talking about,
(02:11):
about the employee experience,about the power of making people
feel like they belong in theirworkplace?
What was it inside of you thatwas like I got to talk about
this?
Luke Jamieson (02:25):
Yeah, look, I'll tell you what it's been an
evolution to get to that, right,because many people might know
that I was a baker and pastrychef when I left school and that
was a blast.
I'm a creative person andthere's heaps of creativity to
be done in that.
But I'll tell you what, whenyou're working nights, your
(02:46):
mates become scarce andgirlfriends even more so.
So after I finished myapprenticeship and had my bakery
and all that sort of jazz, Ineeded to do something different
and really quick segue, like Idid some graphic design and
editing and ad space work andand that had me traveling up and
(03:08):
down the east coast ofaustralia.
If you haven't figured out bythe accent, if you haven't heard
me on a podcast before, I'm inmelbourne, australia, and um,
anyway, I moved to melbourne and, uh, it was.
I.
Funny enough, when you don'thave a qualification in graphic
design, it's not as easy as youthink't have a qualification in
graphic design.
(03:28):
It's not as easy as you thinkto get another job in it,
despite how good you are at it,right.
So I took a stepping stone jobinto a contact center.
I was like I'll just do thisfor a little bit until I can
find a creator and I was likethis world is insane, this world
is bizarre.
You're asking humans to try tobe as human and empathetic as
(03:49):
possible and then treatingeveryone like a robot, and I
don't know.
It was one of those moments.
So I've got a pretty.
You know, I've always had kindof this natural I gravitate to
leadership, right, and I ranyouth groups growing up and
(04:10):
created youth groups and ranthose and all that sort of stuff
.
And then so I saw thisopportunity to lead in contact
centers and I don't know, I justfell in love with it.
I fell in love with theopportunity to change and to
revolutionize how we do stuff inthat space, and particularly
from a contact center andemployee engagement perspective.
And so, to answer your question,finally, it's been an evolution
(04:36):
over the last 20 years, rightof what is it that drives us to
be motivated and give us a senseof belonging?
And it's made up of so many, somany things Like.
This idea of a sense ofbelonging is so complex and
there's all these differentsenses that we have to have in
order to feel that sense ofbelonging.
(04:56):
And you know that involvesthings like a, not just like
those obvious ones, like a senseof purpose and a sense of
meaning, but a sense of self, asense of community, a sense of
joy, a sense of achievement, asense of growth, and all of
these things have to align forus to get to a point of a sense
(05:18):
of belonging.
And so many organizations don'tknow how to do that and they
simply throw a pizza party andexpect people to be motivated.
And just the way we create KPIsand everything for people is
just so broken and we need toshift how we do that.
And I think one of the reasonsI love AI so much is because
(05:42):
it's freaking everyone out.
Right, it's freaking everyoneout and it's going to take our
jobs, and that's because we'vecreated all these jobs that are
made up of tasks that somebody,that a machine, can do, and and
I think people are starting torealize that we need to create
jobs that are not based on tasksbut based upon humans and and
(06:03):
what our broad mission andpurpose is for an organization.
How do we achieve that and whatis the output versus the input
that us, as humans, can bring toa workplace?
So, wow, that was a longresponse to your question.
I'm sorry, sarah.
So good.
Sarah Caminiti (06:20):
Oh, that was so good, man.
We are kindred spirits on somany levels, and I think that I
agree with every single thingthat you said.
And the thing that stood out,though, was the AI bit.
Was that's really differentthan what I've heard and what
(06:41):
I've talked with others about,for that correlation between AI
and CX.
I've been excited about AIbecause it's finally giving us a
chance to talk about all ofthese things that we've been
doing for a really long time,quietly and without any sort of
(07:03):
appreciation, with dataanalytics and really drilling
into the trend analysis anddoing all these manual things,
because we don't have thesupport or the budget to use the
tools that actually make useffective.
And AI is coming through andit's like, oh my God, this thing
is amazing.
Look at all these things thatthey do and it's like, guys,
(07:24):
we've been doing this for years.
You just never were payingattention.
But what you're saying about AIbeing a task, like it like
takes over those tasks, becauseso much of what we do is a task.
That is a huge chunk of whatthe purpose is of this job is.
(07:45):
So it's that is such a solidpoint, and it's I like that
angle.
I think that that's an anglethat can really connect with
people outside of our space.
That comes with the same resultof now we will be able to do
more.
We would be able to actually dothe stuff that we have been
doing, but use it in a morepurposeful way.
(08:05):
But saying that it is takingover those tasks, I think that
is a really well thought out wayof expressing the realities of
AI in the CX space.
Luke Jamieson (08:19):
I think it poses some really interesting future
of work thoughts as well aroundhow do we structure our days and
all that sort of stuff.
And I think, you know, inAustralia there's this the
unions, I think, did a reallypositive thing way, way back
(08:39):
when and created the eight-hourday, the eight-hour work day,
and so there's eight hours ofplay, eight hours of sleep and
eight hours of work, and I thinkthat that changes.
I think AI has the and that'sbeen decades and decades of that
right.
I think AI has the opportunityto change that because, you know
(09:03):
, as organizations start tothink about the like what we're
here for and what is the big,hairy, audacious goal as an
organization that we want to getlike, what is the purpose and
meaning of our organization, allof a sudden we can start
focusing our people on achievingthat instead of doing the tasks
, and I think that that thencreates these jobs of meaning
(09:25):
and stuff, and that mightactually mean that we don't need
to work eight hours a day.
We might only have to work fourhours a day to do that, but
it's purposeful, driven, alignedwork and that's going to be way
more valuable than these tasks.
Anyway, we're probably gettingway off topic, but that's kind
of where my head's at with thefuture of work right and what
(09:47):
this has potential to do.
Sarah Caminiti (09:49):
No, I think that that's totally on topic.
I'm so happy that you weresaying that, and I think that
this idea that we would be ableto do more purpose-driven work
within an organization makes methink a lot about core values.
Motivation makes me think a lotabout core values, because if
(10:10):
your core values as a companyare clearly defined and you have
a purpose and you actually liveby that and your actions speak
to these core values and youremployees feel those core values
, it allows them the space tolean into their personal core
(10:30):
values and see how they can makethe company stronger because of
it.
Wow, we now are able to utilizethese folks that we invited
into our space, into our company, to be employees and to help
make this place better.
(10:50):
Now we have this opportunity tolike see what can happen.
Let's see what happens if wegive them the tools that they
need to be successful and do thework that they want to do.
But the task stuff is taking upall of their time and celebrate
(11:11):
who they are and what theybring to the table and use that
as kind of your differentiatoras a company of.
Luke Jamieson (11:20):
This is what we believe in and this is why this
is what we believe in and thisis why that's it, and and I
think I think one of thechallenges I think we've seen in
in many industries is is goodintention and poor execution.
And so and let me give you anexample like um, like
(11:42):
environmental, social governance, right, esg these companies are
like, yeah, we want to beenvironmentally conscious and so
therefore, let's bring in somepeople who are really focused on
that and really passionateabout that and they bring them
into the organization so thatthey can say that they're taking
action and they're beingsocially responsible.
(12:07):
And then these people who arepassionate about that get into
these corporate organisationsand just get like destroyed by
the red tape and the mundane andthe tasks and all the things
that suck the soul out of you ina corporate environment, and
then, all of a sudden, it justbecomes a tick box exercise.
Whereas if we were able toremove some of those barriers
(12:31):
and remove some of that, thosethings that got in the way that
did suck your soul out becauseyou know I can take some of
these tasks and you can justfocus your passion and your,
your creativity and your joy andyour all the things that get
you excited about that.
How much better could that rolebe, and how much better is that
for the organization and howmuch better is that for our
(12:52):
society?
And I just think, man, there'ssome seriously cool opportunity
here for that.
Sarah Caminiti (12:58):
Yeah, no, there are.
It'll be really interestingwhere, I think we're hitting
into the next two to three yearsof a reality check, where the
shiny toy mentality of AI isstarting to leave a little bit.
The folks that decided to justdo it in a way that was
(13:21):
ineffective or thoughtless Iguess, for lack of a better term
for when they're implementingthese sorts of things are
regretting it, and theircustomers have voiced their
opinions about why they need tobe regretting these choices.
And now we're shifting intookay, well, this doesn't work.
(13:42):
We can't just replace an entiredepartment with a bot that has
never been trained and doesn'thave anything set up for QA.
So now?
Now, what do we do?
And now we're starting to see somuch more conversation into.
Well, it's an enhancement tool,it's a co-pilot, it's a
(14:04):
reminder of all of these otherthings that we want them to
remember, but the brain cannothold all of that information.
It's the 360 view of the actualcustomer journey and it's
allowing teams to not be siloedanymore.
Like, think about theopportunities that exist now to
(14:25):
not have everybody pit againsteach other, because no one
really could ever see into thecustomer experience that existed
for that one specificdepartment.
And so then you just areconstantly butting heads.
No one's talking the samelanguage, and now we can.
Luke Jamieson (14:44):
Yeah, yeah, exactly heads.
No one's talking the samelanguage and now we can.
Yeah, yeah, exactly yeah,that's yeah, like the thought of
that.
I've been I've been wrestlingwith a similar topic around like
reward and recognition.
Not wrestling with no, I've gotmy views on on this, but that
this idea of reward andrecognition within organizations
, um, and how it?
It literally pits people upagainst each other and that we
(15:06):
need to think of different waysto do that.
You know, around thatappreciation and gratitude
versus reward and recognition,and what does that mean for us
from an intrinsic valueperspective in our work lives?
So yeah, interesting,interesting.
I think there's some synergythere between those two topics,
(15:28):
for sure.
Sarah Caminiti (15:31):
What do you think companies should do?
Luke Jamieson (15:34):
Look, I think the problem with reward and
recognition programs inherentlyis that they more often than not
go to the extrinsic thing.
There's a reward, it's rewardbased, you're working towards
getting this reward and there'sthis celebrity culture that
comes with that right.
So all of a sudden I feel likethe world is all about 15
(15:56):
minutes of fame, and that's nodifferent in the office.
People are looking for that 15minutes of fame in the office
and they do that through thesereward and recognition programs.
And it's like how do I get myname up in the lights?
I tick all of these boxes, Itake all the widgets you've
thrown at me and I achieve themin this order in order to get
that recognition.
(16:17):
And then what that does is itputs people up against each
other within an organization,and those people who are doing
the work because it's meaningfulto them and they want to do
that work because just doing agood job is what satisfies them
and gives them that intrinsicreward and they do that because
(16:37):
it's the right thing to do Getoverlooked.
And then they get demotivatedbecause of these reward and
recognition programs and it's aform of gamification, right,
it's the gold star on thecheckbox because you know, you
(16:58):
did your homework today, andit's just a different form of
that, and I think we forget that, like you can have adverse
effects.
You know it's God it is.
You know, for every actionthere's an equal and opposite
reaction.
You know, and I'll give you anexample of that, like each is,
um, we're diving intogamification a bit here, but
(17:20):
linkedin has recently put gameson on there, so I don't know if
you've noticed this there'sthree games you can play on a
daily basis and, like I wasactually really enjoying those.
But, um, then, then, uh, theybrought in this thing of streaks
.
So then you would, how manydays in a row you would have to?
(17:41):
Actually, how many days in arow you'd completed it, and the
minute I lost my streak becauseyou know just life, I no longer
wanted to do it anymore, and soit has the complete opposite
reaction to that right.
And so, going back to employeeengagement, if the work itself
(18:03):
is meaningful and the workitself is the thing that gives
the satisfaction to the employee, because it's aligned, it's
purposeful, it's meaningful, andthey, how do we recognize that?
Well, I think it comes from aculture of appreciation.
You know, culture is just a setof behaviors repeated.
So it's those moments ofappreciation on a regular basis
(18:26):
which then drives gratitude, youknow.
So appreciation is outside toin, gratitude is inside to out
and it creates this nice flow.
And I think we need to moveback to this culture of
appreciation and gratitude andaligning meaningful work and the
(18:48):
achievement of that meaningfulwork.
So collaboratively, as a groupand as a team, we're all working
towards the same thing, versustrying to get this celebrity
status within an organization.
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No, that's powerful stuff,though.
(19:40):
Luke.
What have you found when youtalk about this stuff?
What has the response been?
Luke Jamieson (19:46):
I think the challenge of this is sometimes
it feels a little intangible.
So it's so easy to see a rewardand recognition program and see
that tangible outcome and it'seasy to put widgets in place and
it's easy to put metrics andgoals and all these sort of
things in place.
I'm not saying we shouldn'thave goals Goals are a great way
(20:10):
to celebrate achievement andprogress so great.
But we've got to think aboutwhat is the like, what is the?
How do we think about thosefrom an intrinsic value versus
the extrinsic value?
And the simple answer is it's acultural change.
But that is equally as hard toactually achieve right and it
(20:31):
takes some.
It takes some, some guts to tostand up and say we're actually
going to, we're actually goingto go down this path and we're
not going to have a reward andrecognition program, we're
actually doing away with it,where you've got organizations
left, right and center sayingwe're just introducing this new
reward and recognition program.
No, we're not about that,because culturally we're about
(20:52):
appreciation and this is whereleaders have an opportunity.
This is where leaders need tolead.
This is where leaders need tolead.
This is where leaders need toto.
And, again, this is where aihelps right leaders forever
taking the monkey on their back.
It's like how many times I thinkback to my career when I'm
leading people and runningcontact centers and a contact
(21:15):
center agent comes up to you andsays, hey, I've got this really
big problem, or I've got this,I'll be like all right.
Um, I've already got 50 thingson my plate.
But I'm like what do I say,leave it with me, leave it with
me.
All of a sudden, you've got 100things on your on your plate
and you're doing all these,these tasks, taking you away
from the thing that actually isgoing to provide the most value,
(21:37):
which is coaching, training,taking time to appreciate,
taking time to acknowledgesomeone's effort, celebrating
someone's growth.
I think that's a huge part.
That's a huge part of that whenwe talk about progress and
recognition and appreciation isacknowledging someone's growth
(22:00):
in something They've got betterat something, because that is an
intrinsic reward for someonethemselves, and just to
acknowledge that is so huge.
And so AI is going to help.
I think that's what I hope.
My hope for it is that it helpsleaders get back to doing the
things that are going to makethe biggest difference, which is
lead people and appreciatepeople and give them the time
(22:22):
and let them be seen.
I'm not talking about celebritystatus seen.
I'm not talking about puttingthem up in lights employee of
the month, bs.
I'm talking about just beingseen and appreciated and heard
and know that they'recontributing to something bigger
than themselves, which thenstarts to drive that sense of
belonging yeah.
Sarah Caminiti (22:44):
Yeah, it definitely does.
And it's one of those thingswhere, with the reward and the
recognition programs, those areusually the same companies that
have the most expensive helpdesk thing that actually only
does one tiny, tiny littlenugget of what actually needs to
be done.
And they get a pizza partytwice a year and it's such a
(23:09):
removal because they're not ableto give themselves the
opportunity to really thinkabout what it is that these
choices they're making aretelling the people that they're
working with.
And it goes over and over againto I don't value you enough, I
don't value your success enoughto actually look at you as a
(23:33):
person instead of a metric, andthen it does skew.
When you want to do this welland when you want to embrace it,
it boils down to data becauseyou can't coach, you can't see,
you can't be present if youdon't know the reality of what's
(23:56):
going on.
If you don't know the realityof what's going on and if you
are a leader who wants toactually be in it with your team
, you need to see.
Oh, yesterday I noticed thisperson had a huge dip in their
numbers.
I'm not gonna go to a negativeassumption and say they weren't
doing a good job.
That day I'm going to go up tothem and I'm going to say did
(24:17):
you have some really complexproblems?
Yesterday?
Like I noticed that you weretaking a much longer time than
usual, but you didn't come andask for help.
So I just kind of want to checkin and, like, let them know.
Luke Jamieson (24:31):
Yeah, it could be one step further where they're
actually getting insight intowhat it was before they actually
even have to ask that question.
And it could be hey, wow, I sawhow that affected this.
How do I want to be able tosupport you by doing X, y, z, or
let's buddy you up with thisperson, or hey, well done on
(24:53):
handling something that in anyother day we would say you
didn't do a good job, but theinsights actually shown me that
you actually took the time tocare and show value to that
customer and add loyalty and allthe things that we wanted.
So we really appreciate thatyou've done that.
And this thing comes back tothe output that someone does and
(25:14):
not the input right?
And yeah, wow, yeah, I justthink there's.
There's so much opportunity,yeah.
Sarah Caminiti (25:22):
Yeah, no, there is.
There's definitely so muchopportunity and the fact that
there's conversations being hadoutside of the CX space, cause I
feel like we're a special bunchthat have known that this is
what makes a difference for along time, because we're dealing
with human emotions every day,like that is the name of the
(25:44):
game when you're working withcustomers and we're able to play
and see what happens when weapproach a problem in this way.
We see what happens when we aska question in this way and oh,
this didn't convey what I wantedto convey in this way.
And so when I go and talk to myboss about something, I know I
should probably, you know, trythese words, because these seem
(26:08):
to work really well with thecustomer and the message will
get across much better withsomebody else.
But the QA piece of being aleader is something that AI, I
think, has really shown a reallypositive light on.
Of the excuse of I don't havetime or I only need to look at
(26:32):
two, two or three tickets amonth and that's my QA is that
excuse isn't valid anymorebecause it's taken that out if
you actually invest in a programthat does it for you.
Luke Jamieson (26:49):
Yeah, yeah, I always struggle with that anyway
when leading with people thewhole idea that one call can
ruin your whole month orwhatever as an agent.
That's why I created a wholenew quality framework when I was
at an organization, which wasmore focused on just breaking
(27:10):
down the individual componentsof a call and rating that as a
holistic view of performance.
Versus this one call was a zero, despite the fact that there
was 99 good things, but youfailed to do a security check on
, so it's a zero.
I think we need to take a moreholistic approach to quality,
(27:30):
even if you don't have AI right,but I think, yeah, you're right
AI is definitely going torevolutionize that space, thank
God.
Sarah Caminiti (27:41):
What did you see as a change when you started
implementing that holisticapproach to QA and how did that
conversation go when you weretalking about it with senior
leadership, that you werechanging the way that you were
doing QA?
Luke Jamieson (27:58):
Well, the biggest thing is it impacts the
employee, right?
So let's say it is three callsor four calls a month and and
whatever, and you fail one andyour pass marks 80.
You can't pass if you fail onecall and so you're written off
for that.
And if that happens a couple oftimes in a year, you've written
off your whole year.
And then once you're no longer,once you no longer realize you
(28:21):
can achieve the goal, what's thepoint in even trying for the
rest of the year?
And it just leads down thishorrible path of disinterest and
disengagement and apathy andall these things that we don't
want, and destroys resilience.
And, yeah, it's a horribleprocess.
So the biggest impact isactually on the employee because
(28:43):
it's like, okay, I know I canmake a mistake and yet still be
acknowledged for all the goodthings I did, and that doesn't
take away from the mistake,right?
We report the mistake up theline, we acknowledge it, we
address it.
We create a closed loop circuitthat allows us to then go and
address that with a customer andwith regulators or whoever it
(29:05):
is that we need to do to do theright thing to rectify the
situation.
But what it doesn't do isdestroy all the good things that
somebody does and degradesomeone down to a binary moment.
It's a way more holisticapproach and I think that's a
way better employee experience.
(29:25):
It makes no difference to thecustomer in that moment, right,
if the mistake's done, themistake's done.
It's what we do afterwards thatchanges that for the customer.
But in that moment for theemployee, how we treat that
makes a huge difference to them.
Sarah Caminiti (29:47):
Yep, yep, no, it definitely does.
There's something I realizedwhen I started building the
teams in my previous jobs andstuff it's when you're, and it
took them a while to get used tothis too.
So it's a different approach tothese sort of conversations.
But difficult conversationsaren't supposed to be like
(30:09):
anxiety-inducing, like feel likeyou're going to throw up
conversations.
A leader needs to takeresponsibility for the fact that
that employee did not have thesupport that they need to do the
job that they needed to do.
Well, because we have toremember, everybody's trying to
do their best, and so if youstart approaching those
(30:30):
conversations of hey, we knowthat this wasn't an intentional
thing, but why did you do itthis way, walk me through it so
that I can figure out where inthis process things didn't go
according to plan, so that wecan then put something in place
to support you and help you andthen share this with everybody
(30:51):
else, because if you're feelingthis, you're not alone.
Everyone is probably feelingthis in some capacity, and now
we can have a conversation.
Luke Jamieson (31:02):
Yeah, exactly, it's removing that binary
approach to these things, whereit's good or bad.
And again I'm going to go backto a gamification example and
why I think there's a place forit in the workforce when done
properly.
I don't know if you play gamesor not Sometimes, sometimes, All
(31:29):
right.
Sometimes yeah, in most gamesyou get to that boss challenge,
that boss fight where you haveto.
You know the final challenge toovercome a level or whatever it
is, even if it's in Candy Crush, there's always going to be
that big one that's going to getyou to the next level.
We don't approach that.
(31:50):
When you approach a game atthat level, you don't go in
there going.
This is a pass-fail moment forme.
This is one of those momentsthat if I screw this up my
career's over, I'm never playingthis game again.
You don't approach it like that.
(32:11):
You approach it as a learningopportunity.
Right, you have a go at it.
All, right, new work, I'm gonnagive it another go.
Okay, I got slightly better.
Yeah, I overcome it.
Great, we, we move on to ournext level threshold of
challenge.
If we approached, if weapproached those, those
difficult conversations in thesame way that it is, this is
just a boss fight.
We just we're gonna, we'regonna have a go at it.
We, we might, we might, wemight die on this one.
(32:33):
Yeah, okay, let's go againthough.
Okay, let's just have anothercrack at it.
Let's just have another crackat it and and have it.
Have a different mentality goinginto that, that this isn't
binary.
This is just a, an opportunityfor learning and growth and
moving forward.
We have a, we have a muchbetter um uh feeling towards
that.
All of a sudden, we don't havethe anxiety right and of of that
(32:56):
I think.
You know.
I even think about my oldestdaughter is doing her her um
final year of school at themoment and, uh, she's going into
exams in the next couple ofweeks and I just worry for her
because, like, exams suck forthat exact reason.
Yeah, it's all that hard workthat you've put in for years and
years come down to this binarymoment of can I perform in this
(33:20):
next two hours to be able toshow that I know this or that I
you know, and there's so manyfactors that play into that.
It can be time, it can beanxiety, it can be all these
things, and yet we approach thisin such a binary way that
creates all this stress andanxiety, which it doesn't need
to be.
There's so many other ways wecould test, learning and check
(33:42):
that someone has competency andum and and desire and passion
and and thinking like just justum like the comprehension
solving yeah, comprehensive.
You know all those sort ofthings.
I can't, you know, lose, listen, kind of talk all of a sudden.
But you know it's, uh, weapproach, if we approach these,
um, it's, it's, it's this way ofthat we've done these things in
(34:07):
our society, that things arejust good and bad, and I just
don't think there is good andbad.
I think it's so much morecomplex than that and we
shouldn't simplify anything downto that.
Sarah Caminiti (34:19):
No, no, I agree, I definitely agree, and I'm
hopeful that your daughter getsout of this Luckily she has a
support system and you beingable to have those conversations
of taking some of that pressureoff of her, because it really
does take away some of that loveof learning that could still
(34:40):
exist and you want to have carryon with you for the rest of
your kids' lives, exactly whenthere's just that doomsday of I
could just have a bad day or I'mnot good at taking tests.
I mean from a personal thing, Iwas terrible at taking tests.
(35:02):
I would just panic and I wouldjust feel like I was never going
to be able to remembereverything.
My mind would go blank and then, who knows, who knows what was
going to happen.
Luke Jamieson (35:14):
Just like I did then, exactly Just like I did
then.
And hey, I think I made up sixwords with that sentence.
Sarah Caminiti (35:21):
Yes, no, it's true, though, and that shouldn't
define a person, and that'slike.
I've been thinking a lot aboutresumes, too, and uh, and the
pressure that goes into creatingthe right resume and saying the
right thing and being able toarticulate it the right way, and
(35:45):
it boils down to some justcrappy power dynamics, with all
of these different things, ofgood and bad.
There's no gray.
It is, someone has decided thatthis is good, this is bad and
you can't defend it.
We're not going to have aconversation about it.
(36:07):
You either are or you are not,and that's that.
Luke Jamieson (36:12):
And what a terrible mindset.
Sarah Caminiti (36:17):
No, there's no feedback.
Luke Jamieson (36:19):
You don't go into it going.
Do I sell myself here?
Or do I go in with humility andundersell myself?
Do I go in there as what's myapproach to this?
And you don't always know.
It's hard to tell from a jobdescription and a company
profile as to what they'relooking for, and then you get a
(36:41):
one-liner rejection email and nofeedback as to, oh, the
feedback you get.
There was a lot of greatcandidates, awesome, so I'm not
one of them.
Sarah Caminiti (36:54):
What did I do wrong?
Luke Jamieson (36:54):
Yeah, yeah, exactly Like if we talk about
that from a customer experienceperspective.
If we were to just put that outthere and get no feedback,
that's it, we would be up inarms about it, right?
So yeah, it's a broken industry, broken process.
Sarah Caminiti (37:17):
It is, it is.
Luke Jamieson (37:19):
And this is coming from people who are
people, people this is comingfrom your HR areas, right who
are there for your, are meant tobe your people champions, and
then this is how they treatexternal people Like oh God,
don't start me.
Sarah Caminiti (37:40):
No, it's.
I mean, this is.
We could have another two hours, probably talking about this.
I think that the biggest thingis someone asking for your
expectations for salary on a jobdescription and like setting it
up so that from day one youdon't have any negotiating power
, like you threw it out thewindow, like now they hold this
(38:05):
secret number and they are goingto judge you based on how you
were defining your worth and youcan't go too high, because if
you go too high, then you'regoing to get automatically
rejected because you're outsideof the budget.
If you go too low, then you'regoing to get the low end,
regardless of whether yourqualifications like say that
that's what it's going to be.
No one tells you what the bandis, so you have no clue what
(38:31):
your place is in all of it.
And then you have to go into ajob interview and figure out how
you're going to navigate itwhen you still don't even know
if they like the number that youput into the job application in
the first place.
Luke Jamieson (38:46):
Yeah, yeah, broken Broken.
Sarah Caminiti (38:51):
Broken.
There's my soapbox for 1030 atnight.
Love it, but it's.
Yeah, there's a lot to belearned from customer experience
.
There's a lot to be learned.
If different departments ofdifferent companies, different
C-suite folks thought of everyperson in their company as a
customer, I think that peoplewould approach a lot of things
(39:15):
very differently.
Luke Jamieson (39:19):
I agree it makes me actually think about the
application process that thisidea of a CV is actually a
completely wrong approach, right, it almost does need to be that
questionnaire of answer thesequestions and you'll get a score
and then come back and then wecan give you a feedback loop,
because, look, I get it.
If you've got to reply to 100,200, 1,000 people with feedback
(39:45):
on their application, that's alot.
It's a big train, right?
But hey, you know what we coulduse AI for that?
Sarah Caminiti (39:55):
Whoa, whoa.
No well, why not?
Though?
When I do job applications,like when I'm hiring I don't
look at the resume, really.
I don't look at the coverletter.
Really.
I ask a series of questions,and I want to understand how
they think about a problem, orhow they start a paragraph when
(40:15):
they're trying to talk to a fakeangry customer.
I want to see what your realityis in this job.
What your reality is in thisjob, not some stuff that you
Googled, you're supposed to putdown on a piece of paper, and an
AI has the opportunity toreally do that and do it
(40:38):
effectively.
Luke Jamieson (40:40):
And then it can be like hey AI who wrote your
resume?
This is AI, who's going toreview it and give you the
response?
Gold.
Sarah Caminiti (40:52):
No one said the feedback loop had to be by a
person.
It's just a beautiful circle ofrobots talking to robots and
just a lot of them are trainedvery well by humans.
Luke Jamieson (41:04):
Exactly.
Yeah, that'll be the firstthing that you say when you get
in the room.
I'm so glad your robot liked myrobot.
Let's have a conversation aboutwhat it's like to be a human
here.
So, yeah, awesome, yeah that'sreally good.
Sarah Caminiti (41:17):
So, L, I don't want to take up more of your
Friday, even though I wish thatI could take up the entire day,
because I want to just keeptalking to you but I do end
every episode by asking thefolks that gift me with their
time what era do you findyourself in, or what era are you
moving into, L?
(41:37):
So, hey, what's your era?
Luke Jamieson (41:39):
Oh, I mean, like 1989, taylor Swift.
Let me think, if I think aboutmy era, my era is my
collaboration era.
So this year I set myself agoal to try to make most of my
(42:02):
content collaborative and workwith others, with others.
And I had this epiphany kind oflast year and like I've got a
lot of accolades, um, which I,which I'm very grateful for.
So anyone who's given me one ofthose just know that I'm super
grateful.
Um, but as as this conversationhas gone, like, I've also been
(42:24):
been questioning the value ofrecognition and what does that
mean?
And self-promotion, it kind ofis no recommendation, right, so
it's.
You know, when I get theseaccolades, it's almost
uncomfortable for me to be like,wow, look at this, another
(42:46):
accolade that I just got.
It's.
It's because, particularly inAustralia, right, australia has
this thing called tall poppysyndrome.
I don't know if you've heard ofthat before and, yeah, aussies
have this.
This really bad.
I think it's a really bad traitthat we, we don't like anyone
(43:07):
on a pedestal.
We chop them down, bringeveryone back down, very
egalitarian in that way.
So don't stick your neck outtoo far because you know, and
that's hard when you want to bea thought leader right when you
want to be a thought leader andyou want to, which is what I
aspire to be.
I aspire to be a thought leaderand provide my thoughts on
(43:31):
these topics that I'm passionateabout, so that I learn and
others learn at the same time,and that we can create great
conversation.
But I think last year, when Isort of got to that point of
like there's no point in havinga conversation just with
yourself, and I want tocollaborate with other people
and create great content withother people and share our
(43:55):
amazing community and build thiscommunity, which is where the
2020-ish series came from.
Right, it was like how do Iconnect with as many people as
possible and share their storiesand share how awesome they are?
Um, and I think that's a waybetter way of of recognizing
each other and putting up peoplein lights.
And, and you know, I think itwas uh, you know, when vicky um
(44:20):
gave your shout out, uh, that'swhen we connected and, and to me
, I was like man, if that's notthe greatest success of 2020-ish
is that you and I got toconnect and we're now here
having this podcast.
Like that, to me, definedsuccess, it's not some accolade,
it's the fact that my network'sgrown.
I'm able to connect with akindred spirit and build this
(44:43):
network and, you know, challengeeach other, right?
There was a few of those postswhere Jeff Toyster love him to
death.
I just think he's amazing.
I've looked up to him for solong.
I'm so grateful that he waseven part of it.
He would challenge me on thethings that I said and it made
me think and stop and go.
(45:04):
Actually, what do I actuallythink about this and do I really
, you know, is this a one linethat I'm putting on LinkedIn or
is this actually what I think?
And that's the power ofcollaboration, right?
Is that we get better with thisstuff?
You know, and you know thesaying.
You ever heard the saying ironsharpens iron.
Sarah Caminiti (45:21):
Mm-hmm.
Luke Jamieson (45:25):
I actually think that there's I actually been,
I've been thinking about that,saying a lot, and I might have
said this somewhere else, but Iactually think that that, if we
think about what you sharpen aknife with, you sharpen it with
a stone right, and it's we wesharpen things, and the reason
we do that is because it createsmore friction, and the more
(45:49):
friction we have, the sharper weget.
Um, and so it's the opposite tocustomer experience, right,
customer experience is all aboutremoving friction.
You know, finding friction,removing it, whereas growth
within ourselves is aboutfinding something that causes
friction, that makes us sharper.
And so, yeah, the only way youcan do that is through
(46:09):
collaboration.
So my Taylor Swift album coverwill be the collaboration era.
Sarah Caminiti (46:16):
I love this era and I have loved 2020-ish, and I
am so happy that Vicky shoutedme out.
I mean, the message I sent youwhen I first introduced myself
to you, Luke, was I have to sendthis to my mom so that she can
see that I am on this.
This is a really big deal.
This is a crazy moment, and youmade people feel heard and seen
(46:42):
and appreciated andacknowledged.
You gave them a space to shineand to be proud of themselves,
and I think that that is areally, really powerful gift
that you have given thiscommunity, because we all
struggle with celebratingourselves.
And sometimes we need the helpof others to do it, and you gave
(47:04):
that.
And so I'm very thankful foryou.
Luke Jamieson (47:08):
Well, you've made me emotional because that was
Michael and I's goal was to putother people in lights and give
them a platform, and so I'mthrilled by that.
I'm thrilled that you wantedyour mom to see that.
That's the icing on the cakefor me, right?
Yeah, really awesome, reallyawesome, and I'm looking forward
(47:29):
to having you on the seriesnext.
Michael and I are lookingforward to having you on the
series as a feature next year,as a full-time guest next season
.
Sarah Caminiti (47:39):
I'm so excited.
I am so, so, so excited.
I can't wait to dive into thatwith you and I'll be picking
Vicky's brain and Rob's brainabout what it was like to be a
feature on there and really,really have fun, because you
guys are fun and you make it funand it's great.
Luke Jamieson (47:59):
That's it.
That's what it's about.
It's about creating.
You said something before whichI thought was awesome.
It's about creating space.
You know, and I think that isthe future of work, and if we
finish on anything, I think wefinish on this, that is, the
leaders of the future are goingto be space makers.
They're going to create space,whether it's online, virtually
in there.
(48:20):
They make space for theirpeople to grow, to flourish, to
have conversations and to sharewith each other.
The leader of the future is aspace maker.
Sarah Caminiti (48:32):
Luke, way to bring a mic drop right there.
Well, thank you so so much forthis, and I can't wait to keep
talking to you and I just Ireally appreciate you.
So thanks, Luke.
Luke Jamieson (48:49):
Back at you, sarah, and uh, I'll sign off, as
I always do with everyone.
Hooroo, which is a uh.
It's an Aussie slang term, andeveryone always asks me what it
means, and it's derived from theword hooray.
So we we celebrate theconversation that we've just had
, so I like that Hooroo.
Sarah Caminiti (49:17):
My goodness, what a perfect way to end that
episode.
Thank you so much, LukeJamieson, for gifting me with
your time, and thank you so much, listeners, for joining us
today for Epochal Growth.
If you loved what you heard,don't forget to hit subscribe,
share this episode with someonethat needs to hear Luke's
insights and leave us a review.
We're nearing the end of theseason, so stay tuned for some
final amazing conversationscoming up and, if you're ready
(49:38):
to take what you've learnedtoday and align it with your own
leadership style and careergoals, head epochaloperations.
com to to explore my RVAframework.
It's designed to help youidentify your core values,
define your ideal role andcreate a path to lasting impact.
Remember, creating space forgrowth, purpose and leadership
(50:00):
is what drives real change.
I'm Sarah Caminiti.
Have a great day.
Welcome back, listeners, to another episode of
Epochal Growth.
I'm your host, sarah C, and Iam so happy that you're here
Today.
I am thrilled to bring you aconversation with someone who is
truly shaping the future ofwork.
Luth Jamson is a global expertin customer and employee
experience.
He's known for his creativeapproach to leadership and his
(00:28):
insights on how AI istransforming our roles, not
replacing them.
We're deep diving into theimportance of creating space for
purpose-driven work and how AIis revolutionizing leadership,
and why leaders need to focus onappreciation and belonging over
recognition and rewards.
This episode is packed with somany valuable insights you won't
(00:50):
want to miss.
Many of you will recognize Lukefrom the fantastic series with
Michael Madison 2020-ish thatwas on LinkedIn celebrating
leaders within the CX space, andI am so happy that he is now a
part of the Epochal Growthfamily.
All right, listeners, let's getinto it.
Luke Jamieson (01:09):
Well, g'day g'day everyone.
G'day g'day everyone.
My name is Jaand and I am sostoked to finally get to
face-to-face meet Sarah Caminiti.
I am.
What do you want to know aboutme?
I'm just passionate about CXand employee experience and the
future of work and all thethings that come with that, and
(01:31):
I like producing content that Ihope people like, because it's
you know, I think there's somuch drab stuff out here, so it
was awesome to actually get aninvite to be on this one,
because I think this is acracking podcast.
Oh man thank you, thank you.
Sarah Caminiti (01:47):
Well, I think that you do produce content that
people like, because that's howI was introduced to you and
what you're doing, and I thinkthe first thing that I do really
want to know, L, is whathappened.
What was your moment where yourealized you needed to talk
about everything you're sopassionate about talking about,
(02:11):
about the employee experience,about the power of making people
feel like they belong in theirworkplace?
What was it inside of you thatwas like I got to talk about
this?
Luke Jamieson (02:25):
Yeah, look, I'll tell you what it's been an
evolution to get to that, right,because many people might know
that I was a baker and pastrychef when I left school and that
was a blast.
I'm a creative person andthere's heaps of creativity to
be done in that.
But I'll tell you what, whenyou're working nights, your
(02:46):
mates become scarce andgirlfriends even more so.
So after I finished myapprenticeship and had my bakery
and all that sort of jazz, Ineeded to do something different
and really quick segue, like Idid some graphic design and
editing and ad space work andand that had me traveling up and
(03:08):
down the east coast ofaustralia.
If you haven't figured out bythe accent, if you haven't heard
me on a podcast before, I'm inmelbourne, australia, and um,
anyway, I moved to melbourne and, uh, it was.
I.
Funny enough, when you don'thave a qualification in graphic
design, it's not as easy as youthink't have a qualification in
graphic design.
(03:28):
It's not as easy as you thinkto get another job in it,
despite how good you are at it,right.
So I took a stepping stone jobinto a contact center.
I was like I'll just do thisfor a little bit until I can
find a creator and I was likethis world is insane, this world
is bizarre.
You're asking humans to try tobe as human and empathetic as
(03:49):
possible and then treatingeveryone like a robot, and I
don't know.
It was one of those moments.
So I've got a pretty.
You know, I've always had kindof this natural I gravitate to
leadership, right, and I ranyouth groups growing up and
(04:10):
created youth groups and ranthose and all that sort of stuff
.
And then so I saw thisopportunity to lead in contact
centers and I don't know, I justfell in love with it.
I fell in love with theopportunity to change and to
revolutionize how we do stuff inthat space, and particularly
from a contact center andemployee engagement perspective.
And so, to answer your question,finally, it's been an evolution
(04:36):
over the last 20 years, rightof what is it that drives us to
be motivated and give us a senseof belonging?
And it's made up of so many, somany things Like.
This idea of a sense ofbelonging is so complex and
there's all these differentsenses that we have to have in
order to feel that sense ofbelonging.
(04:56):
And you know that involvesthings like a, not just like
those obvious ones, like a senseof purpose and a sense of
meaning, but a sense of self, asense of community, a sense of
joy, a sense of achievement, asense of growth, and all of
these things have to align forus to get to a point of a sense
(05:18):
of belonging.
And so many organizations don'tknow how to do that and they
simply throw a pizza party andexpect people to be motivated.
And just the way we create KPIsand everything for people is
just so broken and we need toshift how we do that.
And I think one of the reasonsI love AI so much is because
(05:42):
it's freaking everyone out.
Right, it's freaking everyoneout and it's going to take our
jobs, and that's because we'vecreated all these jobs that are
made up of tasks that somebody,that a machine, can do, and and
I think people are starting torealize that we need to create
jobs that are not based on tasksbut based upon humans and and
(06:03):
what our broad mission andpurpose is for an organization.
How do we achieve that and whatis the output versus the input
that us, as humans, can bring toa workplace?
So, wow, that was a longresponse to your question.
I'm sorry, sarah.
So good.
Sarah Caminiti (06:20):
Oh, that was so good, man.
We are kindred spirits on somany levels, and I think that I
agree with every single thingthat you said.
And the thing that stood out,though, was the AI bit.
Was that's really differentthan what I've heard and what
(06:41):
I've talked with others about,for that correlation between AI
and CX.
I've been excited about AIbecause it's finally giving us a
chance to talk about all ofthese things that we've been
doing for a really long time,quietly and without any sort of
(07:03):
appreciation, with dataanalytics and really drilling
into the trend analysis anddoing all these manual things,
because we don't have thesupport or the budget to use the
tools that actually make useffective.
And AI is coming through andit's like, oh my God, this thing
is amazing.
Look at all these things thatthey do and it's like, guys,
(07:24):
we've been doing this for years.
You just never were payingattention.
But what you're saying about AIbeing a task, like it like
takes over those tasks, becauseso much of what we do is a task.
That is a huge chunk of whatthe purpose is of this job is.
(07:45):
So it's that is such a solidpoint, and it's I like that
angle.
I think that that's an anglethat can really connect with
people outside of our space.
That comes with the same resultof now we will be able to do
more.
We would be able to actually dothe stuff that we have been
doing, but use it in a morepurposeful way.
(08:05):
But saying that it is takingover those tasks, I think that
is a really well thought out wayof expressing the realities of
AI in the CX space.
Luke Jamieson (08:19):
I think it poses some really interesting future
of work thoughts as well aroundhow do we structure our days and
all that sort of stuff.
And I think, you know, inAustralia there's this the
unions, I think, did a reallypositive thing way, way back
(08:39):
when and created the eight-hourday, the eight-hour work day,
and so there's eight hours ofplay, eight hours of sleep and
eight hours of work, and I thinkthat that changes.
I think AI has the and that'sbeen decades and decades of that
right.
I think AI has the opportunityto change that because, you know
(09:03):
, as organizations start tothink about the like what we're
here for and what is the big,hairy, audacious goal as an
organization that we want to getlike, what is the purpose and
meaning of our organization, allof a sudden we can start
focusing our people on achievingthat instead of doing the tasks
, and I think that that thencreates these jobs of meaning
(09:25):
and stuff, and that mightactually mean that we don't need
to work eight hours a day.
We might only have to work fourhours a day to do that, but
it's purposeful, driven, alignedwork and that's going to be way
more valuable than these tasks.
Anyway, we're probably gettingway off topic, but that's kind
of where my head's at with thefuture of work right and what
(09:47):
this has potential to do.
Sarah Caminiti (09:49):
No, I think that that's totally on topic.
I'm so happy that you weresaying that, and I think that
this idea that we would be ableto do more purpose-driven work
within an organization makes methink a lot about core values.
Motivation makes me think a lotabout core values, because if
(10:10):
your core values as a companyare clearly defined and you have
a purpose and you actually liveby that and your actions speak
to these core values and youremployees feel those core values
, it allows them the space tolean into their personal core
(10:30):
values and see how they can makethe company stronger because of
it.
Wow, we now are able to utilizethese folks that we invited
into our space, into our company, to be employees and to help
make this place better.
(10:50):
Now we have this opportunity tolike see what can happen.
Let's see what happens if wegive them the tools that they
need to be successful and do thework that they want to do.
But the task stuff is taking upall of their time and celebrate
(11:11):
who they are and what theybring to the table and use that
as kind of your differentiatoras a company of.
Luke Jamieson (11:20):
This is what we believe in and this is why this
is what we believe in and thisis why that's it, and and I
think I think one of thechallenges I think we've seen in
in many industries is is goodintention and poor execution.
And so and let me give you anexample like um, like
(11:42):
environmental, social governance, right, esg these companies are
like, yeah, we want to beenvironmentally conscious and so
therefore, let's bring in somepeople who are really focused on
that and really passionateabout that and they bring them
into the organization so thatthey can say that they're taking
action and they're beingsocially responsible.
(12:07):
And then these people who arepassionate about that get into
these corporate organisationsand just get like destroyed by
the red tape and the mundane andthe tasks and all the things
that suck the soul out of you ina corporate environment, and
then, all of a sudden, it justbecomes a tick box exercise.
Whereas if we were able toremove some of those barriers
(12:31):
and remove some of that, thosethings that got in the way that
did suck your soul out becauseyou know I can take some of
these tasks and you can justfocus your passion and your,
your creativity and your joy andyour all the things that get
you excited about that.
How much better could that rolebe, and how much better is that
for the organization and howmuch better is that for our
(12:52):
society?
And I just think, man, there'ssome seriously cool opportunity
here for that.
Sarah Caminiti (12:58):
Yeah, no, there are.
It'll be really interestingwhere, I think we're hitting
into the next two to three yearsof a reality check, where the
shiny toy mentality of AI isstarting to leave a little bit.
The folks that decided to justdo it in a way that was
(13:21):
ineffective or thoughtless Iguess, for lack of a better term
for when they're implementingthese sorts of things are
regretting it, and theircustomers have voiced their
opinions about why they need tobe regretting these choices.
And now we're shifting intookay, well, this doesn't work.
(13:42):
We can't just replace an entiredepartment with a bot that has
never been trained and doesn'thave anything set up for QA.
So now?
Now, what do we do?
And now we're starting to see somuch more conversation into.
Well, it's an enhancement tool,it's a co-pilot, it's a
(14:04):
reminder of all of these otherthings that we want them to
remember, but the brain cannothold all of that information.
It's the 360 view of the actualcustomer journey and it's
allowing teams to not be siloedanymore.
Like, think about theopportunities that exist now to
(14:25):
not have everybody pit againsteach other, because no one
really could ever see into thecustomer experience that existed
for that one specificdepartment.
And so then you just areconstantly butting heads.
No one's talking the samelanguage, and now we can.
Luke Jamieson (14:44):
Yeah, yeah, exactly heads.
No one's talking the samelanguage and now we can.
Yeah, yeah, exactly yeah,that's yeah, like the thought of
that.
I've been I've been wrestlingwith a similar topic around like
reward and recognition.
Not wrestling with no, I've gotmy views on on this, but that
this idea of reward andrecognition within organizations
, um, and how it?
It literally pits people upagainst each other and that we
(15:06):
need to think of different waysto do that.
You know, around thatappreciation and gratitude
versus reward and recognition,and what does that mean for us
from an intrinsic valueperspective in our work lives?
So yeah, interesting,interesting.
I think there's some synergythere between those two topics,
(15:28):
for sure.
Sarah Caminiti (15:31):
What do you think companies should do?
Luke Jamieson (15:34):
Look, I think the problem with reward and
recognition programs inherentlyis that they more often than not
go to the extrinsic thing.
There's a reward, it's rewardbased, you're working towards
getting this reward and there'sthis celebrity culture that
comes with that right.
So all of a sudden I feel likethe world is all about 15
(15:56):
minutes of fame, and that's nodifferent in the office.
People are looking for that 15minutes of fame in the office
and they do that through thesereward and recognition programs.
And it's like how do I get myname up in the lights?
I tick all of these boxes, Itake all the widgets you've
thrown at me and I achieve themin this order in order to get
that recognition.
(16:17):
And then what that does is itputs people up against each
other within an organization,and those people who are doing
the work because it's meaningfulto them and they want to do
that work because just doing agood job is what satisfies them
and gives them that intrinsicreward and they do that because
(16:37):
it's the right thing to do Getoverlooked.
And then they get demotivatedbecause of these reward and
recognition programs and it's aform of gamification, right,
it's the gold star on thecheckbox because you know, you
(16:58):
did your homework today, andit's just a different form of
that, and I think we forget that, like you can have adverse
effects.
You know it's God it is.
You know, for every actionthere's an equal and opposite
reaction.
You know, and I'll give you anexample of that, like each is,
um, we're diving intogamification a bit here, but
(17:20):
linkedin has recently put gameson on there, so I don't know if
you've noticed this there'sthree games you can play on a
daily basis and, like I wasactually really enjoying those.
But, um, then, then, uh, theybrought in this thing of streaks
.
So then you would, how manydays in a row you would have to?
(17:41):
Actually, how many days in arow you'd completed it, and the
minute I lost my streak becauseyou know just life, I no longer
wanted to do it anymore, and soit has the complete opposite
reaction to that right.
And so, going back to employeeengagement, if the work itself
(18:03):
is meaningful and the workitself is the thing that gives
the satisfaction to the employee, because it's aligned, it's
purposeful, it's meaningful, andthey, how do we recognize that?
Well, I think it comes from aculture of appreciation.
You know, culture is just a setof behaviors repeated.
So it's those moments ofappreciation on a regular basis
(18:26):
which then drives gratitude, youknow.
So appreciation is outside toin, gratitude is inside to out
and it creates this nice flow.
And I think we need to moveback to this culture of
appreciation and gratitude andaligning meaningful work and the
(18:48):
achievement of that meaningfulwork.
So collaboratively, as a groupand as a team, we're all working
towards the same thing, versustrying to get this celebrity
status within an organization.
Sarah Caminiti (18:58):
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No, that's powerful stuff,though.
(19:40):
Luke.
What have you found when youtalk about this stuff?
What has the response been?
Luke Jamieson (19:46):
I think the challenge of this is sometimes
it feels a little intangible.
So it's so easy to see a rewardand recognition program and see
that tangible outcome and it'seasy to put widgets in place and
it's easy to put metrics andgoals and all these sort of
things in place.
I'm not saying we shouldn'thave goals Goals are a great way
(20:10):
to celebrate achievement andprogress so great.
But we've got to think aboutwhat is the like, what is the?
How do we think about thosefrom an intrinsic value versus
the extrinsic value?
And the simple answer is it's acultural change.
But that is equally as hard toactually achieve right and it
(20:31):
takes some.
It takes some, some guts to tostand up and say we're actually
going to, we're actually goingto go down this path and we're
not going to have a reward andrecognition program, we're
actually doing away with it,where you've got organizations
left, right and center sayingwe're just introducing this new
reward and recognition program.
No, we're not about that,because culturally we're about
(20:52):
appreciation and this is whereleaders have an opportunity.
This is where leaders need tolead.
This is where leaders need tolead.
This is where leaders need toto.
And, again, this is where aihelps right leaders forever
taking the monkey on their back.
It's like how many times I thinkback to my career when I'm
leading people and runningcontact centers and a contact
(21:15):
center agent comes up to you andsays, hey, I've got this really
big problem, or I've got this,I'll be like all right.
Um, I've already got 50 thingson my plate.
But I'm like what do I say,leave it with me, leave it with
me.
All of a sudden, you've got 100things on your on your plate
and you're doing all these,these tasks, taking you away
from the thing that actually isgoing to provide the most value,
(21:37):
which is coaching, training,taking time to appreciate,
taking time to acknowledgesomeone's effort, celebrating
someone's growth.
I think that's a huge part.
That's a huge part of that whenwe talk about progress and
recognition and appreciation isacknowledging someone's growth
(22:00):
in something They've got betterat something, because that is an
intrinsic reward for someonethemselves, and just to
acknowledge that is so huge.
And so AI is going to help.
I think that's what I hope.
My hope for it is that it helpsleaders get back to doing the
things that are going to makethe biggest difference, which is
lead people and appreciatepeople and give them the time
(22:22):
and let them be seen.
I'm not talking about celebritystatus seen.
I'm not talking about puttingthem up in lights employee of
the month, bs.
I'm talking about just beingseen and appreciated and heard
and know that they'recontributing to something bigger
than themselves, which thenstarts to drive that sense of
belonging yeah.
Sarah Caminiti (22:44):
Yeah, it definitely does.
And it's one of those thingswhere, with the reward and the
recognition programs, those areusually the same companies that
have the most expensive helpdesk thing that actually only
does one tiny, tiny littlenugget of what actually needs to
be done.
And they get a pizza partytwice a year and it's such a
(23:09):
removal because they're not ableto give themselves the
opportunity to really thinkabout what it is that these
choices they're making aretelling the people that they're
working with.
And it goes over and over againto I don't value you enough, I
don't value your success enoughto actually look at you as a
(23:33):
person instead of a metric, andthen it does skew.
When you want to do this welland when you want to embrace it,
it boils down to data becauseyou can't coach, you can't see,
you can't be present if youdon't know the reality of what's
(23:56):
going on.
If you don't know the realityof what's going on and if you
are a leader who wants toactually be in it with your team
, you need to see.
Oh, yesterday I noticed thisperson had a huge dip in their
numbers.
I'm not gonna go to a negativeassumption and say they weren't
doing a good job.
That day I'm going to go up tothem and I'm going to say did
(24:17):
you have some really complexproblems?
Yesterday?
Like I noticed that you weretaking a much longer time than
usual, but you didn't come andask for help.
So I just kind of want to checkin and, like, let them know.
Luke Jamieson (24:31):
Yeah, it could be one step further where they're
actually getting insight intowhat it was before they actually
even have to ask that question.
And it could be hey, wow, I sawhow that affected this.
How do I want to be able tosupport you by doing X, y, z, or
let's buddy you up with thisperson, or hey, well done on
(24:53):
handling something that in anyother day we would say you
didn't do a good job, but theinsights actually shown me that
you actually took the time tocare and show value to that
customer and add loyalty and allthe things that we wanted.
So we really appreciate thatyou've done that.
And this thing comes back tothe output that someone does and
(25:14):
not the input right?
And yeah, wow, yeah, I justthink there's.
There's so much opportunity,yeah.
Sarah Caminiti (25:22):
Yeah, no, there is.
There's definitely so muchopportunity and the fact that
there's conversations being hadoutside of the CX space, cause I
feel like we're a special bunchthat have known that this is
what makes a difference for along time, because we're dealing
with human emotions every day,like that is the name of the
(25:44):
game when you're working withcustomers and we're able to play
and see what happens when weapproach a problem in this way.
We see what happens when we aska question in this way and oh,
this didn't convey what I wantedto convey in this way.
And so when I go and talk to myboss about something, I know I
should probably, you know, trythese words, because these seem
(26:08):
to work really well with thecustomer and the message will
get across much better withsomebody else.
But the QA piece of being aleader is something that AI, I
think, has really shown a reallypositive light on.
Of the excuse of I don't havetime or I only need to look at
(26:32):
two, two or three tickets amonth and that's my QA is that
excuse isn't valid anymorebecause it's taken that out if
you actually invest in a programthat does it for you.
Luke Jamieson (26:49):
Yeah, yeah, I always struggle with that anyway
when leading with people thewhole idea that one call can
ruin your whole month orwhatever as an agent.
That's why I created a wholenew quality framework when I was
at an organization, which wasmore focused on just breaking
(27:10):
down the individual componentsof a call and rating that as a
holistic view of performance.
Versus this one call was a zero, despite the fact that there
was 99 good things, but youfailed to do a security check on
, so it's a zero.
I think we need to take a moreholistic approach to quality,
(27:30):
even if you don't have AI right,but I think, yeah, you're right
AI is definitely going torevolutionize that space, thank
God.
Sarah Caminiti (27:41):
What did you see as a change when you started
implementing that holisticapproach to QA and how did that
conversation go when you weretalking about it with senior
leadership, that you werechanging the way that you were
doing QA?
Luke Jamieson (27:58):
Well, the biggest thing is it impacts the
employee, right?
So let's say it is three callsor four calls a month and and
whatever, and you fail one andyour pass marks 80.
You can't pass if you fail onecall and so you're written off
for that.
And if that happens a couple oftimes in a year, you've written
off your whole year.
And then once you're no longer,once you no longer realize you
(28:21):
can achieve the goal, what's thepoint in even trying for the
rest of the year?
And it just leads down thishorrible path of disinterest and
disengagement and apathy andall these things that we don't
want, and destroys resilience.
And, yeah, it's a horribleprocess.
So the biggest impact isactually on the employee because
(28:43):
it's like, okay, I know I canmake a mistake and yet still be
acknowledged for all the goodthings I did, and that doesn't
take away from the mistake,right?
We report the mistake up theline, we acknowledge it, we
address it.
We create a closed loop circuitthat allows us to then go and
address that with a customer andwith regulators or whoever it
(29:05):
is that we need to do to do theright thing to rectify the
situation.
But what it doesn't do isdestroy all the good things that
somebody does and degradesomeone down to a binary moment.
It's a way more holisticapproach and I think that's a
way better employee experience.
(29:25):
It makes no difference to thecustomer in that moment, right,
if the mistake's done, themistake's done.
It's what we do afterwards thatchanges that for the customer.
But in that moment for theemployee, how we treat that
makes a huge difference to them.
Sarah Caminiti (29:47):
Yep, yep, no, it definitely does.
There's something I realizedwhen I started building the
teams in my previous jobs andstuff it's when you're, and it
took them a while to get used tothis too.
So it's a different approach tothese sort of conversations.
But difficult conversationsaren't supposed to be like
(30:09):
anxiety-inducing, like feel likeyou're going to throw up
conversations.
A leader needs to takeresponsibility for the fact that
that employee did not have thesupport that they need to do the
job that they needed to do.
Well, because we have toremember, everybody's trying to
do their best, and so if youstart approaching those
(30:30):
conversations of hey, we knowthat this wasn't an intentional
thing, but why did you do itthis way, walk me through it so
that I can figure out where inthis process things didn't go
according to plan, so that wecan then put something in place
to support you and help you andthen share this with everybody
(30:51):
else, because if you're feelingthis, you're not alone.
Everyone is probably feelingthis in some capacity, and now
we can have a conversation.
Luke Jamieson (31:02):
Yeah, exactly, it's removing that binary
approach to these things, whereit's good or bad.
And again I'm going to go backto a gamification example and
why I think there's a place forit in the workforce when done
properly.
I don't know if you play gamesor not Sometimes, sometimes, All
(31:29):
right.
Sometimes yeah, in most gamesyou get to that boss challenge,
that boss fight where you haveto.
You know the final challenge toovercome a level or whatever it
is, even if it's in Candy Crush, there's always going to be
that big one that's going to getyou to the next level.
We don't approach that.
(31:50):
When you approach a game atthat level, you don't go in
there going.
This is a pass-fail moment forme.
This is one of those momentsthat if I screw this up my
career's over, I'm never playingthis game again.
You don't approach it like that.
(32:11):
You approach it as a learningopportunity.
Right, you have a go at it.
All, right, new work, I'm gonnagive it another go.
Okay, I got slightly better.
Yeah, I overcome it.
Great, we, we move on to ournext level threshold of
challenge.
If we approached, if weapproached those, those
difficult conversations in thesame way that it is, this is
just a boss fight.
We just we're gonna, we'regonna have a go at it.
We, we might, we might, wemight die on this one.
(32:33):
Yeah, okay, let's go againthough.
Okay, let's just have anothercrack at it.
Let's just have another crackat it and and have it.
Have a different mentality goinginto that, that this isn't
binary.
This is just a, an opportunityfor learning and growth and
moving forward.
We have a, we have a muchbetter um uh feeling towards
that.
All of a sudden, we don't havethe anxiety right and of of that
(32:56):
I think.
You know.
I even think about my oldestdaughter is doing her her um
final year of school at themoment and, uh, she's going into
exams in the next couple ofweeks and I just worry for her
because, like, exams suck forthat exact reason.
Yeah, it's all that hard workthat you've put in for years and
years come down to this binarymoment of can I perform in this
(33:20):
next two hours to be able toshow that I know this or that I
you know, and there's so manyfactors that play into that.
It can be time, it can beanxiety, it can be all these
things, and yet we approach thisin such a binary way that
creates all this stress andanxiety, which it doesn't need
to be.
There's so many other ways wecould test, learning and check
(33:42):
that someone has competency andum and and desire and passion
and and thinking like just justum like the comprehension
solving yeah, comprehensive.
You know all those sort ofthings.
I can't, you know, lose, listen, kind of talk all of a sudden.
But you know it's, uh, weapproach, if we approach these,
um, it's, it's, it's this way ofthat we've done these things in
(34:07):
our society, that things arejust good and bad, and I just
don't think there is good andbad.
I think it's so much morecomplex than that and we
shouldn't simplify anything downto that.
Sarah Caminiti (34:19):
No, no, I agree, I definitely agree, and I'm
hopeful that your daughter getsout of this Luckily she has a
support system and you beingable to have those conversations
of taking some of that pressureoff of her, because it really
does take away some of that loveof learning that could still
(34:40):
exist and you want to have carryon with you for the rest of
your kids' lives, exactly whenthere's just that doomsday of I
could just have a bad day or I'mnot good at taking tests.
I mean from a personal thing, Iwas terrible at taking tests.
(35:02):
I would just panic and I wouldjust feel like I was never going
to be able to remembereverything.
My mind would go blank and then, who knows, who knows what was
going to happen.
Luke Jamieson (35:14):
Just like I did then, exactly Just like I did
then.
And hey, I think I made up sixwords with that sentence.
Sarah Caminiti (35:21):
Yes, no, it's true, though, and that shouldn't
define a person, and that'slike.
I've been thinking a lot aboutresumes, too, and uh, and the
pressure that goes into creatingthe right resume and saying the
right thing and being able toarticulate it the right way, and
(35:45):
it boils down to some justcrappy power dynamics, with all
of these different things, ofgood and bad.
There's no gray.
It is, someone has decided thatthis is good, this is bad and
you can't defend it.
We're not going to have aconversation about it.
(36:07):
You either are or you are not,and that's that.
Luke Jamieson (36:12):
And what a terrible mindset.
Sarah Caminiti (36:17):
No, there's no feedback.
Luke Jamieson (36:19):
You don't go into it going.
Do I sell myself here?
Or do I go in with humility andundersell myself?
Do I go in there as what's myapproach to this?
And you don't always know.
It's hard to tell from a jobdescription and a company
profile as to what they'relooking for, and then you get a
(36:41):
one-liner rejection email and nofeedback as to, oh, the
feedback you get.
There was a lot of greatcandidates, awesome, so I'm not
one of them.
Sarah Caminiti (36:54):
What did I do wrong?
Luke Jamieson (36:54):
Yeah, yeah, exactly Like if we talk about
that from a customer experienceperspective.
If we were to just put that outthere and get no feedback,
that's it, we would be up inarms about it, right?
So yeah, it's a broken industry, broken process.
Sarah Caminiti (37:17):
It is, it is.
Luke Jamieson (37:19):
And this is coming from people who are
people, people this is comingfrom your HR areas, right who
are there for your, are meant tobe your people champions, and
then this is how they treatexternal people Like oh God,
don't start me.
Sarah Caminiti (37:40):
No, it's.
I mean, this is.
We could have another two hours, probably talking about this.
I think that the biggest thingis someone asking for your
expectations for salary on a jobdescription and like setting it
up so that from day one youdon't have any negotiating power
, like you threw it out thewindow, like now they hold this
(38:05):
secret number and they are goingto judge you based on how you
were defining your worth and youcan't go too high, because if
you go too high, then you'regoing to get automatically
rejected because you're outsideof the budget.
If you go too low, then you'regoing to get the low end,
regardless of whether yourqualifications like say that
that's what it's going to be.
No one tells you what the bandis, so you have no clue what
(38:31):
your place is in all of it.
And then you have to go into ajob interview and figure out how
you're going to navigate itwhen you still don't even know
if they like the number that youput into the job application in
the first place.
Luke Jamieson (38:46):
Yeah, yeah, broken Broken.
Sarah Caminiti (38:51):
Broken.
There's my soapbox for 1030 atnight.
Love it, but it's.
Yeah, there's a lot to belearned from customer experience
.
There's a lot to be learned.
If different departments ofdifferent companies, different
C-suite folks thought of everyperson in their company as a
customer, I think that peoplewould approach a lot of things
(39:15):
very differently.
Luke Jamieson (39:19):
I agree it makes me actually think about the
application process that thisidea of a CV is actually a
completely wrong approach, right, it almost does need to be that
questionnaire of answer thesequestions and you'll get a score
and then come back and then wecan give you a feedback loop,
because, look, I get it.
If you've got to reply to 100,200, 1,000 people with feedback
(39:45):
on their application, that's alot.
It's a big train, right?
But hey, you know what we coulduse AI for that?
Sarah Caminiti (39:55):
Whoa, whoa.
No well, why not?
Though?
When I do job applications,like when I'm hiring I don't
look at the resume, really.
I don't look at the coverletter.
Really.
I ask a series of questions,and I want to understand how
they think about a problem, orhow they start a paragraph when
(40:15):
they're trying to talk to a fakeangry customer.
I want to see what your realityis in this job.
What your reality is in thisjob, not some stuff that you
Googled, you're supposed to putdown on a piece of paper, and an
AI has the opportunity toreally do that and do it
(40:38):
effectively.
Luke Jamieson (40:40):
And then it can be like hey AI who wrote your
resume?
This is AI, who's going toreview it and give you the
response?
Gold.
Sarah Caminiti (40:52):
No one said the feedback loop had to be by a
person.
It's just a beautiful circle ofrobots talking to robots and
just a lot of them are trainedvery well by humans.
Luke Jamieson (41:04):
Exactly.
Yeah, that'll be the firstthing that you say when you get
in the room.
I'm so glad your robot liked myrobot.
Let's have a conversation aboutwhat it's like to be a human
here.
So, yeah, awesome, yeah that'sreally good.
Sarah Caminiti (41:17):
So, L, I don't want to take up more of your
Friday, even though I wish thatI could take up the entire day,
because I want to just keeptalking to you but I do end
every episode by asking thefolks that gift me with their
time what era do you findyourself in, or what era are you
moving into, L?
(41:37):
So, hey, what's your era?
Luke Jamieson (41:39):
Oh, I mean, like 1989, taylor Swift.
Let me think, if I think aboutmy era, my era is my
collaboration era.
So this year I set myself agoal to try to make most of my
(42:02):
content collaborative and workwith others, with others.
And I had this epiphany kind oflast year and like I've got a
lot of accolades, um, which I,which I'm very grateful for.
So anyone who's given me one ofthose just know that I'm super
grateful.
Um, but as as this conversationhas gone, like, I've also been
(42:24):
been questioning the value ofrecognition and what does that
mean?
And self-promotion, it kind ofis no recommendation, right, so
it's.
You know, when I get theseaccolades, it's almost
uncomfortable for me to be like,wow, look at this, another
(42:46):
accolade that I just got.
It's.
It's because, particularly inAustralia, right, australia has
this thing called tall poppysyndrome.
I don't know if you've heard ofthat before and, yeah, aussies
have this.
This really bad.
I think it's a really bad traitthat we, we don't like anyone
(43:07):
on a pedestal.
We chop them down, bringeveryone back down, very
egalitarian in that way.
So don't stick your neck outtoo far because you know, and
that's hard when you want to bea thought leader right when you
want to be a thought leader andyou want to, which is what I
aspire to be.
I aspire to be a thought leaderand provide my thoughts on
(43:31):
these topics that I'm passionateabout, so that I learn and
others learn at the same time,and that we can create great
conversation.
But I think last year, when Isort of got to that point of
like there's no point in havinga conversation just with
yourself, and I want tocollaborate with other people
and create great content withother people and share our
(43:55):
amazing community and build thiscommunity, which is where the
2020-ish series came from.
Right, it was like how do Iconnect with as many people as
possible and share their storiesand share how awesome they are?
Um, and I think that's a waybetter way of of recognizing
each other and putting up peoplein lights.
And, and you know, I think itwas uh, you know, when vicky um
(44:20):
gave your shout out, uh, that'swhen we connected and, and to me
, I was like man, if that's notthe greatest success of 2020-ish
is that you and I got toconnect and we're now here
having this podcast.
Like that, to me, definedsuccess, it's not some accolade,
it's the fact that my network'sgrown.
I'm able to connect with akindred spirit and build this
(44:43):
network and, you know, challengeeach other, right?
There was a few of those postswhere Jeff Toyster love him to
death.
I just think he's amazing.
I've looked up to him for solong.
I'm so grateful that he waseven part of it.
He would challenge me on thethings that I said and it made
me think and stop and go.
(45:04):
Actually, what do I actuallythink about this and do I really
, you know, is this a one linethat I'm putting on LinkedIn or
is this actually what I think?
And that's the power ofcollaboration, right?
Is that we get better with thisstuff?
You know, and you know thesaying.
You ever heard the saying ironsharpens iron.
Sarah Caminiti (45:21):
Mm-hmm.
Luke Jamieson (45:25):
I actually think that there's I actually been,
I've been thinking about that,saying a lot, and I might have
said this somewhere else, but Iactually think that that, if we
think about what you sharpen aknife with, you sharpen it with
a stone right, and it's we wesharpen things, and the reason
we do that is because it createsmore friction, and the more
(45:49):
friction we have, the sharper weget.
Um, and so it's the opposite tocustomer experience, right,
customer experience is all aboutremoving friction.
You know, finding friction,removing it, whereas growth
within ourselves is aboutfinding something that causes
friction, that makes us sharper.
And so, yeah, the only way youcan do that is through
(46:09):
collaboration.
So my Taylor Swift album coverwill be the collaboration era.
Sarah Caminiti (46:16):
I love this era and I have loved 2020-ish, and I
am so happy that Vicky shoutedme out.
I mean, the message I sent youwhen I first introduced myself
to you, Luke, was I have to sendthis to my mom so that she can
see that I am on this.
This is a really big deal.
This is a crazy moment, and youmade people feel heard and seen
(46:42):
and appreciated andacknowledged.
You gave them a space to shineand to be proud of themselves,
and I think that that is areally, really powerful gift
that you have given thiscommunity, because we all
struggle with celebratingourselves.
And sometimes we need the helpof others to do it, and you gave
(47:04):
that.
And so I'm very thankful foryou.
Luke Jamieson (47:08):
Well, you've made me emotional because that was
Michael and I's goal was to putother people in lights and give
them a platform, and so I'mthrilled by that.
I'm thrilled that you wantedyour mom to see that.
That's the icing on the cakefor me, right?
Yeah, really awesome, reallyawesome, and I'm looking forward
(47:29):
to having you on the seriesnext.
Michael and I are lookingforward to having you on the
series as a feature next year,as a full-time guest next season
.
Sarah Caminiti (47:39):
I'm so excited.
I am so, so, so excited.
I can't wait to dive into thatwith you and I'll be picking
Vicky's brain and Rob's brainabout what it was like to be a
feature on there and really,really have fun, because you
guys are fun and you make it funand it's great.
Luke Jamieson (47:59):
That's it.
That's what it's about.
It's about creating.
You said something before whichI thought was awesome.
It's about creating space.
You know, and I think that isthe future of work, and if we
finish on anything, I think wefinish on this, that is, the
leaders of the future are goingto be space makers.
They're going to create space,whether it's online, virtually
in there.
(48:20):
They make space for theirpeople to grow, to flourish, to
have conversations and to sharewith each other.
The leader of the future is aspace maker.
Sarah Caminiti (48:32):
Luke, way to bring a mic drop right there.
Well, thank you so so much forthis, and I can't wait to keep
talking to you and I just Ireally appreciate you.
So thanks, Luke.
Luke Jamieson (48:49):
Back at you, sarah, and uh, I'll sign off, as
I always do with everyone.
Hooroo, which is a uh.
It's an Aussie slang term, andeveryone always asks me what it
means, and it's derived from theword hooray.
So we we celebrate theconversation that we've just had
, so I like that Hooroo.
Sarah Caminiti (49:17):
My goodness, what a perfect way to end that
episode.
Thank you so much, LukeJamieson, for gifting me with
your time, and thank you so much, listeners, for joining us
today for Epochal Growth.
If you loved what you heard,don't forget to hit subscribe,
share this episode with someonethat needs to hear Luke's
insights and leave us a review.
We're nearing the end of theseason, so stay tuned for some
final amazing conversationscoming up and, if you're ready
(49:38):
to take what you've learnedtoday and align it with your own
leadership style and careergoals, head epochaloperations.
com to to explore my RVAframework.
It's designed to help youidentify your core values,
define your ideal role andcreate a path to lasting impact.
Remember, creating space forgrowth, purpose and leadership
(50:00):
is what drives real change.
I'm Sarah Caminiti.
Have a great day.
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