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Ever felt overwhelmed in customer service roles, struggling to keep a professional demeanor while maintaining your sanity? Hilary Dudek, head of customer experience at Gamma, joins us and shares her unique approach, drawing on her background in musical theater. Learn how adopting different roles or personas can help you set emotional boundaries, protect your energy, and avoid burnout, while still delivering top-notch customer service. We explore practical strategies for clearly communicating your boundaries and ensuring they are respected, helping you to preserve both your mental health and team harmony.
Customer support requires a unique set of skills that go far beyond answering phones. In this episode, we unpack the essential qualities that define exceptional service, such as empathy, quick thinking, and active listening. As AI and automation become more prevalent, we emphasize the irreplaceable value of the human touch in handling complex issues and fostering customer relationships. We also debate the pros and cons of automating repetitive tasks versus using them to deepen customer connections, ensuring you stay ahead in an evolving landscape.
Working in a startup environment brings its own set of challenges and rewards. Here, we celebrate the dynamic culture at Gamma, a growing team fueled by collaboration and shared goals. With insights on how platforms like Canny enhance team communication and feedback, we discuss the importance of maintaining work-life balance and high-quality output in a non-hustle culture. Hilary also shares her journey of building trust and camaraderie within outsourced teams, highlighting the significance of consistent communication and leading with confidence. Join us for an episode filled with actionable advice and inspiring stories that will help you thrive professionally and personally.
“Change will not come if we wait for some other person, or if we wait for some other time. We are the ones we’ve been waiting for. We are the change that we seek.”
- Barack Obama
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sarah Caminiti (00:09):
It is Tuesday and you know what that means A
new episode of Epochal Growth.
I am Sarah Caminiti, your host.
This is episode 16 of EpochalGrowth and I'm so happy that
you're here.
This is a podcast where weunlock transformative business
insights and leadershipstrategies.
We're going to be tackling areally important topic today
(00:31):
setting boundaries at work.
I feel pretty lucky today to bejoined by Hilary Dudek, head of
customer experience at Gamma.
She has a wealth of knowledgeand industry experience on how
to establish and maintaineffective boundaries in your
professional life and how thatimpacts your personal life too.
We're going to dive into somepractical tips on how to
communicate your boundariesclearly, the impact on
(00:53):
boundaries on team dynamics, thestrategies for creating a
culture that respects andupholds these limits, and how to
create a collaborativefoundation with your BPO.
I don't need to remind you tolike and follow and subscribe
and share this podcast withanybody that you think would
find it valuable.
If you think somebody couldlearn something wonderful from
these leaders, please pass thisepisode along, or any of the
(01:16):
other episodes of Epochal Growth.
All right, let's explore howyou can redefine your work
environment with strong andhealthy boundaries.
Are you ready to make a change?
Let's go.
Hilary Dudek (01:31):
It teaches you so many skills that I think
translate so well to customerservice and customer support
like not being afraid to talk toanybody and being able to hold
an interesting conversation,able to speak clearly you know
my diction has gotten very lazyover the years but in theory
have great diction, all sorts ofthings like that.
I think it's such a good skillset to have, even if you never
(01:54):
do anything with itprofessionally.
Sarah Caminiti (01:56):
I agree completely and I and I also
think that the ability to play arole also is something that, at
least for me, like it's shownitself in ways that I don't
realize until I'm likereflecting on it later.
But you know you, you'reallowed to, you know how to
approach things, like, okay,you've got an angry customer,
(02:17):
all right, well, let's, let'sjust meet them where they are
and and shift into that and kindof just make it less of a
personal experience, likepersonal, to it's impacting you
as a human being.
And more of all, right now Ineed to kind of to play this
role of this de-escalator and itdoesn't have anything to do
(02:38):
with me and be able to shifttone and context from person to
person that you're talking to.
I think a lot of that can comefrom a musical theater
background too.
Hilary Dudek (02:51):
I completely agree , and I think that lends itself
being able to put on a differentrole or persona.
I mean honestly similar to Inever worked at Disney, but it
seems similar to working atDisney Like I am now, this
customer service person thatcares so deeply and I'm going to
, you know, not take anythingpersonally.
But then you can drop thatpersona and it creates a
(03:11):
boundary between yourself andyour energy and the energy of
the person on the other end ofthe machine, and I think that's
something that's reallyimportant, especially in
industries that are alreadyreally tough to support, like
healthcare, for example.
I mean, healthcare is overall,a fairly depressing industry to
work in and customer support.
(03:31):
So if you can create thatpersona and use that as your
protection and your shield, Ithink it's a really great thing.
Sarah Caminiti (03:39):
I love that.
I love that you brought that upbecause it is creating that
boundary is one of those thingsthat you brought that up because
it's it is creating thatboundary is one of those things.
It's a skill that you have tolearn and you have to have been
burned probably a few times inorder to to understand, like,
where your limits are and whatactually happens when you give
yourself so fully to thecustomer and truly it does not
(04:01):
change the outcome for thecustomer experience.
If your heart and your soul andall of your emotions are tied
to the success of this person,you can still deliver that
incredible experience and saveyourself and your energy in the
process.
And that comes with time andit's an easy way to burn out and
(04:26):
not like this industry anymoreIf you don't uh, don't find that
that space.
But also, as a leader, it'ssuch a cool thing to teach
others how to do and make itfeel safe to do like,
acknowledge that, yeah, thissucks this, but this doesn't
have anything to do with you,and so let's figure out what we
(04:48):
can bring into this to, like youknow, make it so that you don't
feel so like depleted afterthese conversations.
Hilary Dudek (04:55):
Exactly, I 100% agree.
You shouldn't.
You shouldn't close your laptopor leave your office.
If you're working in office atthe end of the day and like,
bring those stories home withyou or that that other person's,
I guess, mess or energy,whatever you, you should have a
barrier between that becauseotherwise it's going to impact
(05:17):
you, it's going to impact yourfamily and friends and whoever
you're interacting with afterthat, and that's not fair to
anyone.
And, like you said, it's notproductive.
It'd be one thing if it wasproductive, if you were, I don't
know a surgeon thinking overthis person's problem and then
you come up with a solution.
That's probably a moreproductive use of your time,
although I would argue theystill need boundaries somewhere,
maybe just in a different way.
(05:38):
But, like you said, you canonly do so much.
Sarah Caminiti (05:48):
So at that point you have to be able to say I've
done what I can.
That's really sucks, but it'sgot nothing to do with me.
Yeah, and I think too, it canreally impact your self-esteem
and your self-worth If, everyday, you are allowing these
other people that you don't knowto speak to you poorly or to to
talk down to you or to justlike impact you in ways that
(06:10):
it's not appropriate or it's nothealthy, and if you don't have
a leader that's able to give youthat out of no, there is no way
that you are supposed to betreated this way.
There's no way that anyone isgoing to treat my team this way
and step in and and give youthat that freedom to say this
(06:32):
one has been a hard one, or I'mreally thinking it's leaning
into danger zone.
Can you just jump in hereplease, cause I just don't think
I have it in me to continue on?
This conversation gives yourteam just such a such an
opportunity to breathe and setsthe tone, but it really is up to
leadership to make that happen.
Hilary Dudek (06:54):
It really, really is, and that's something that
I've always strived to do andjust always make it known and
reiterate and then put it intoaction.
Of course it's one thing to saythings, but then if you don't
actually jump into theinteraction to support your
people, I think it's kind ofmeaningless.
But making it very clear thatyou know we have zero tolerance
policy for harassment and abuseverbal, any sort of abuse, any
(07:19):
sort of inappropriate language,language, I feel, when it's just
like our normal everyday fourletter words, I do feel like
there's some people that handlethose better than others.
So I've always blurred the linea little bit there.
You know, if someone's superangry and they're maybe swearing
at your product, for example,if you're the type of person
(07:40):
that is unbothered by that, thengreat like, just roll with it.
But if it's personal to you orwe're cursing people or, you
know, threatening people, that'sthat's something that just
won't be tolerated and I don'tcare.
I will go to back for you toleadership.
Hopefully we have a goodleadership team that will also
be on my side.
But like I don't care, I don'tcare if we lose that customer, I
(08:01):
don't care if we lose thatrevenue.
You're still human at the endof the day, this is just a job
in this capitalist hellscapethat we're living in, and it
doesn't matter.
Your personal well-being is notworth it.
Sarah Caminiti (08:14):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
And it doesn't even have toescalate to a point of a
four-letter word or actual abuse.
If it's like any feeling thatyou get when you are approaching
the conversation or somethinglike starts to get those feelers
up of, I don't really like thisanymore.
(08:34):
Um, then I always tell my team,like just call it, just call it
.
I would way rather you let meknow and uh, and bring me into
the fold then.
Then wait until it's it has hitthat point and you are feeling
those things, that they aresaying those words, because half
the time you just need to saythe exact same thing that
(08:55):
everyone's been saying to thisperson, but then put your title
at the bottom.
Hilary Dudek (09:02):
And, uh, you get it.
You understand, I know, earlyin my career I would go in and I
would do exactly that and Idefinitely had directs that were
like but I just said that I'mlike I know and it should matter
when you say it, and I'm sorrythat I didn't, but the fact that
yours says, you know, customersupport agent and mine says
customer support manager makes adifference.
(09:24):
It would also make a difference, probably, if I had a masculine
name versus a feminine name.
Sarah Caminiti (09:27):
So it it's out of your control, unfortunately,
the world we live in yeah, yeahand it's, and even like I love
that you said that the masculinething, because that's that is
so true.
I feel like I did.
I dream if someone did likeexperiment where they like
started, uh, a job and they theyhad uh, uh, they like there was
(09:49):
a misspelling or something withwith how, with their name, like
within the system, and and itbecame like a masculine
presenting name, and so theyjust kind of like rolled with it
and uh, and then they ended upswitching back to like who they
actually are and the differencein conversation and quality of
conversation was like nuts,which isn't surprising, but it's
(10:13):
still depressing.
Hilary Dudek (10:14):
Yes, no, you did not make that up.
I don't remember who did it andI don't know if they were part
of the community or if it wasjust a community member that
brought it up and talked aboutit, but that definitely happened
, 100%.
And I saw another article, amore recent one, where this
person I think she was anindividual contributor, she was
(10:35):
a consultant or something and soshe had a website with a AI
chat bot that had a masculinename or no.
It had a feminine, femininename and all the men were
hitting on it.
It was just a scheduling bot,that's all it did, and, like the
amount of men that would hit onit or ask it out was staggering
and they had never interactedwith it before.
(10:56):
And it was a whole article.
I'll have to find it and sendit to you, but that was
fascinating to me and alsoreally gross.
Wow, wow.
Sarah Caminiti (11:03):
Wow, wow, wow, wow.
What is that Like?
What a world we live in.
What a world we live in.
I mean, I've got a lot ofthoughts about that, but dang
like bold moves.
Hilary Dudek (11:18):
Bold, bold, bold, bold moves.
It's a bold strategy, kat yeah,Gosh.
Yeah, people are fascinating,but that's what drew me to
support and that's what I'vealways said in pretty much any
job interview I've ever had,starting from when I was really
young to even now.
Why do you want to do this?
People are fascinating.
(11:38):
They're absolutely fascinating.
They frustrate me.
Sometimes I hate them all,sometimes I love them all, but
they never cease to amaze.
I'll tell you that they keep itme.
Sometimes I hate them all,sometimes I love them all, but
they never cease to amaze.
I'll tell you that they keep itinteresting.
Humans are interesting.
Sarah Caminiti (11:49):
Yes, Yep, they are, and they are a puzzle and
every single person is a verydifferent puzzle.
And when you are able to workin support, you have the chance
to test out different puzzlepieces and experiment and be
surprised and, uh, I don't know,it's just, it's, it's such a
(12:11):
different, it's such a differentplace.
It's just, it's a special placeand that's why I think the
people that are in the communityare as special as they are,
because we all are here for areason, and uh and others
outside of our circle would notbe as successful or tolerate, uh
, the space, the way that wethrive in it.
Hilary Dudek (12:32):
I completely agree .
It definitely takes and it tookme a long time to understand
that that not that I'mspecifically like special, but
like in general, that customersupport, customer service,
people are unique and are giftedin that way.
For a long time I was just like, well, yeah, you just answer
(12:53):
the phone and you do thesethings, or well, yeah, you're
going to approach it this way,or, yeah, you're going to.
It was just of course you dothat, and then I would work.
I'm thinking back specificallyto, like, my days in hospitality
, when I was actually in personso I could like actually see how
other people were working,working at the front desk of a
hotel, and it was mind blowingto me that, like, truly like,
(13:14):
some people are not cut out forit.
I'm sure they have other giftsand talents that they should be
applying elsewhere, but, like,the amount of people that didn't
get it from a customer serviceperspective it was.
It was super eyeopening to meand it made me feel really good
about my career and where I'mgoing in it and that you know
this, this truly is a skill setthat not everybody has and
(13:36):
that's, that's awesome.
Sarah Caminiti (13:37):
Yes, 100%, it is a.
It's something that took me awhile too, and I've noticed for
a lot of folks, the journey toactually a career and being
proud of your career in supporthas been a long and bumpy
journey, and I mean, I thinksome of that has to do with tech
and the industry and actuallycreating a space for people to
(14:00):
like level up their career inthe support world and have it
not be just a stepping stone.
So the conversations have kindof changed in that regard, but
still, it is a group of peoplethat have to be clear
communicators.
They have to be able to bequick on their feet.
They have to be articulate butalso be able to to pivot.
(14:24):
They have to be articulate butalso be able to to pivot.
They have to be thoughtful andempathetic.
They have to be activelylistening.
They have to be doing all ofthese things.
And that's just in oneinteraction.
They've probably got sevenother interactions that they're
dealing with at the same exacttime and they're able to do it,
so yeah, it's a skill, it 100%is, and people should feel good
about having that skill set andand there's a use for it.
Hilary Dudek (14:45):
There's never going to be I, I so AI, robots,
ai, whatever it's never going toget to the point where you
won't meet a human.
You know, using hospitality,since I just used that as an
example, of course, you can likeautomate your check in and
check outs and honestly, Ireally like that because I like
not having to wait in line andtalk to a human.
At least one or two folks atthe front desk like your skills
(15:16):
will always be needed.
Fast food workers will alwaysbe needed, like delivery people,
all this customer service it'snot going away.
So why not double down and beproud of what you're doing and
like work to like just reallyexcel in those skill sets?
Sarah Caminiti (15:27):
Yes, totally it is.
It's so true that there is thisis a weird time.
That's like it's a positive anda negative thing.
That's happening right now withAI, with with the realization
of what support professionalsare actually doing, based on the
types of tools and analyticsthat are coming out of customer
support focused AI things,because these are things that
(15:51):
we've been doing manually foryears.
But I think that it's going tobe a huge shift in like a couple
of years, where all of theseplaces that are like, oh, we're
going to be totally AI, we'rejust going to totally lean into
AI.
This is the only way that we'regoing to do it.
You know, we're going to evendo AI on phone support why not?
(16:11):
And then they're going torealize oh, hey, yeah, no, we
have lost a huge amount ofcredibility of our customers, of
the type of like I don't knowbuzz around us, because now we
are known for deception and poorservice and making things
(16:33):
incredibly hard for customersand it's just it's going to
backfire very, very hard.
Hilary Dudek (16:38):
Yes, yes, a hundred percent.
Use AI, use these cool toolsthat are coming, because they're
very cool.
I work for a company that usesAI to build awesome slide decks,
but it's not replacing theperson delivering the
presentation.
It's not replacing the person.
It should make the customersupport person's job that much
(16:59):
easier they should be handling.
What I consider if you trulylove customer support is the fun
stuff, the complex puzzles, thereally tough things, the
mindless questions or whatever.
Those can be done away withabsolutely and, you know,
redirected to help center or theAI or whatever, but it's only
(17:21):
to make more room for thecustomer support person to do
their job as excellently as theycan.
That's just a skill set that Idon't think AI is ever going to
be able to replicate.
Sarah Caminiti (17:32):
No, no.
And even those ones that arethose like repetitive tasks or
questions.
I love those ones because Ithink that they are a gateway to
developing a relationship withthe customer, because you're you
are showing them that eventhese questions where you may
feel silly asking them becausethey seem so obvious, no, it's
(17:53):
still a safe space for you toask those questions.
And if you create that kind offoundational opportunity with
the customer, then you're ableto have a conversation about
their use case and reallyunderstand what's going on, why
they are having such a hard timeremembering their password or
why they're having such a hardtime like understanding this
(18:15):
little corner of things.
And if we just make theassumption that those questions
are just questions, like it'sjust like we miss out on so much
, that could happen.
Hilary Dudek (18:29):
I really like that perspective.
Um, I don't know that I 100%agree.
I don't know.
I have to think about thatbecause I just honestly, it
comes down in my mind.
It's like a triangle and at thevery base of it is prevention,
like your product should be goodenough or clean enough or
well-designed enough that folksdon't have questions and that
(18:51):
folks understand like, oh, I canreset my password here or
whatever the case may be, but ifyour product isn't there yet,
that's interesting.
Would you say that, even if youwere getting like 500 password
reset questions a day?
Sarah Caminiti (19:07):
Well, when I say that I don't, I mean that
because I'm a very data focusedperson, like I'm a very
analytical support professional,and like when I am looking at
things for those repetitivequestions like where you're just
sending out an article for theknowledge base, that is, that
starts to start the conversationof well, why didn't they know
(19:29):
to look at this on their own,what is it that they're missing
from the documentation?
Why isn't the forgot passwordthing as obvious?
And so it starts those, thewebs of those things.
Yes, and, and I do always worrythat you would miss out on
those sorts of analytics If youwere just sending everybody over
(19:50):
to, to a, to a bot or to thehelp center, because people are
still getting information,they're still needing
information, but you're not ableto extract it as easily.
But what I really mean is Ithink that there is too much of
a negative vibe to simplequestions coming into support,
(20:15):
and those are going to alwayshappen and and you are
responsible for analyzing themand finding out why they're
doing it.
But also, those are stillvaluable questions, that that
are coming from your customer,and they are still open for
conversation and opportunitiesto create a foundation.
Hilary Dudek (20:37):
Okay, your clarification makes a lot of
sense to me and I agree with you.
I agree with that.
I like being able to see thedata from my bot, for example I
actually don't have a bot rightnow for support but see the data
and then say okay, they'veasked this question 500 times,
(20:58):
why are they asking this?
And then taking steps to figurethat out and reduce it and
maybe that is removing the bot,so I can actually talk to these
people and understand why ormaybe it's doing something else.
These people and understand whyor maybe it's doing something
else.
But I agree that like there isthis sort of not taboo but like
(21:20):
these easy questions shouldn'tbe asked.
Well, but they're, they areasking them.
So like, let's figure out why.
Sarah Caminiti (21:26):
I agree with that A hundred percent.
Yeah, yeah, no, and, and, and Ithink that if you're getting
500 questions about something ina day, the bigger question is
what the heck are you doing tocreate a product that is having
500 questions about the sameexact thing?
Like is that?
Was this a slow ramp?
Hilary Dudek (21:45):
Yes, or has this always been 500?
Like we need to have aconversation because that is
intense for no reason.
Yes, prevention begins in theproduct, so that's where you're
going back to your product team.
Why is this button here, or whyisn't there a button here or
whatever?
(22:05):
That is maybe, yes, a hundredpercent.
Um, we don't need to go out ofour way to make things hard for
the customer or make them askthose silly questions or those
simple questions.
But no, what I really like aboutmy current role is that there's
a huge emphasis on listening tothe customer, and so not only
myself, but a lot of the designteam especially hops on calls
(22:29):
with our power users all thetime and I really, really love
that.
First of all, before me and the, the engineering and design
teams were doing supportthemselves, so they're very
empathetic to what it looks liketo their customers, but they're
taking the time to listen evennow and say, okay, like, why are
you using it this way?
Oh, oh, this is a use casewe've never thought of.
(22:50):
That's actually really cool.
We could build this way.
Oh, this is a use case we'venever thought of.
That's actually really cool.
We could build this thing tosupport this use case.
So listening makes a world ofdifference.
Sarah Caminiti (23:00):
I love that.
I'm so glad that you're in aspace like especially because
you had mentioned when we weregoing over who you are before
the podcast that you havepreviously been in a very
different space for support in alarger space from where you are
before this, before the podcast.
That you have previously beenin a very different space for
support in a larger space forfrom where you are now and and
that's great that you're able toenter into a company that has
(23:24):
already set a tone with theircustomers of value, of listening
, of impact, of community andtransparency, which happens when
you have those developers andengineers and product folks
coming into the conversation.
And so I'd love to know, like,how you have approached this
with them in and included theother teams in the conversation
(23:48):
as you've been navigating,entering into this different
space.
Hilary Dudek (23:51):
Yeah, something that we did that I think is
really cool is that weimplemented a tool called
cannyio.
It's a feedback tool, and soit's very simply placed inside
of our product menu so, like, ifyou're going to contact support
, you can also see the option toprovide feedback, and that
board is monitored by primarilydesign.
(24:13):
Engineering gets in there too,but primarily like the
co-founders, myself and design,and we respond to nearly every
single person that leaves acomment.
I'm sure this will becomeunscalable at some point, but
right now, like my designer,nick, is in there all the time
Like, oh my gosh, tell me aboutthis.
Why are you asking?
If you can embed this this way,like, what are you doing?
(24:35):
Tell me about this, let's hopon a call.
Here's my calendar, like, and Ican see how he's interacting
too, which you know, sincedesign and engineering were
doing support before I came on.
It was actually a very.
It helped me ramp up faster tosee how they were interacting,
but also, just I'm seeing, okay,and then I can go follow up
with Nick.
Hey, you know, I saw you talkto David.
(24:56):
What did David have to say?
And sometimes I end up talkingto them too, and so it's a
really cohesive flow ofinformation.
We also have Slack channels thatwe post in very regularly and
it's all very early stagestartup.
I mean there's 16 of us, sothere's no like set protocol,
(25:18):
nothing's in stone, but we alljust we take our feedback and we
put it in the beta feedbackchannel and we all talk about it
.
There's just a lot ofdiscussions happening all the
time that are very organic andour product is very creative.
It's a platform that you canuse to make presentations or a
website or an ebook.
I've seen people make a websitefor their restaurant
(25:41):
family-owned restaurant so it'svery flexible and fluid, and so
we're kind of taking thatflexible, fluid approach as well
and we're not locking into anyone thing, which I think is
really cool.
I started to ramble a littlebit, but basically, like, using
shared platforms like Canny umreally helps facilitate those
internal conversations.
Sarah Caminiti (26:01):
No, I love that you are in such a collaborative
space and I mean, 16 folks isactually from from, because I
come from bootstrap world and sothat's uh, that's like
long-term company team size inin a lot of regards like uh
that's yeah, yeah, 16, and I'vebeen early stage startups like
(26:27):
this before, for example,Handshake, I was the 13th um and
I watched it scale and grow.
Hilary Dudek (26:32):
But it's so nice to be back to what feels like my
roots with this really tight,close-knit team.
I mean, they've never had anyattrition, like the entire team
is completely intact, which Ilove, and they just they just
get stuff done, but it's not ina it's not a hustle mentality.
Sarah Caminiti (26:49):
We're doing stuff constantly, we're
constantly talking to people whoare constantly iterating, but
it's not like a overworkyourself, don't have work-life
balance type of hustle, and Ireally appreciate that, oh,
that's so good, because there issuch a difference, especially,
at least like I've seen since Istarted building teams and then
reflecting on the teams thatI've been in in my career and in
(27:11):
that kind of a mentality, thework that you produce when you
are in that crazy hustle,intense space is not of the same
caliber as the work that youproduce when you actually are
allowed to be thoughtful withyour time and purposeful and and
like thorough and and you justthere's so many opportunities
(27:33):
for dropping the ball orforgetting something or or just
like skipping over it becauseyou're so stressed about the
timeline and and to to build aculture around.
No, we hired you because you'rereally good at what you do and
we want you to be able to dothat to the capacity that you
see fit, and here is the spaceto do it.
(27:54):
That's when things reallyreally shine.
Hilary Dudek (27:57):
Yes, 100% agree and I mean I've been in the
office one time with them.
They're they're mostly inoffice.
I mean they work like remotelyfrom an hour away, but they're
mostly in office.
I'm one of the only few peoplethat are remote, truly remote,
um, but just seeing them worktogether as well is so cool
because, yeah, it's just thisopen floor plan and folks are
(28:19):
typically quiet and focused, butlike if an ad hoc conversation
needs to come up, it comes upand then we just go back to our
work but it's not a forced thing.
Or there's no forced like notthat stand-ups are a bad thing,
but there's no like forcedstand-ups or forced meetings for
the sake of having meetings andchecking boxes.
It's really all right.
Use your time and the output,from what I can see so far, has
(28:41):
been, like you said, farmerquality, because they have the
time and the space to actuallydo their work really really well
and based on actual feedbackfrom customers or from support.
So that's just.
I hope we never lose it.
It's lovely.
Sarah Caminiti (28:57):
It's awesome.
Are you starting to like createthe policies and the procedures
and all of like, the actuallike locked in stuff right now,
or is that something that you'regoing to hold off on until you
start building out a team?
Hilary Dudek (29:09):
So I do have a really small team.
They're outsourced at the BPO.
They came on at the same timeas me and so I manage them.
I'm starting to build those out, but it's pretty minimal at
this point.
Our product also isn't.
I mean, it is complex, but youdon't need a ton of policies yet
(29:30):
at this point.
It's more like, okay, when dowe refund, when do we not?
Things like that.
We're working on an abuse andmoderation policy, because we
should have at least a barebones basic one at this point.
But, um, yeah, so starting todocument those things, but it's
not a pressing need at thispoint, because we're not.
We're not throwing bodies ontothe team, just bodies.
(29:53):
You know, we just raised ourseries a, which is super
exciting.
We just announced it yesterday.
But we're not going to justthank you.
I did it myself not at all, um,but we're not going to just
thank you.
I did it myself Not at all.
But we're not going to juststart throwing bodies at things.
Sarah Caminiti (30:06):
So yeah, that's I mean.
You have to do that.
You have to do that withsupport.
You have to be aware of thevolume, understand the customer
and how to how to give them whatthey need.
But also don't set the tone of,yeah, we're always going to get
back to you in like fiveminutes because we're always
here, we never are away, becausethat also is when you start to
(30:30):
think about it, like from theirperspective, of like no, we want
you to have your weekend too.
We want you to take the timewith your family too.
Like, we are here when it isappropriate.
China we have a lot of folks inKorea.
Hilary Dudek (31:06):
We have Germany starting to kind of be a big,
booming one, Brazil, so we are.
I am going to have somebodystart working on the weekends,
but I hired him specifically forweekends and so you know he
gets his two days off during theweek.
And yeah, outside of thosehours still like we're not 24
seven support, we just have youknow all all the days covered.
Yeah, Outside of that stilllike we're not 24 7 support, we
just have you know all all thedays covered.
Yeah, outside of that.
No, you're not getting aresponse like look at our help
center.
We have tons of really cooltutorials on youtube and I plan
(31:28):
on making more like check outour resources.
We'll get back to you becauseeveryone deserves that work-life
balance and honestly like, whyare you making a slide at like
12 am your time?
Go to bed?
Sarah Caminiti (31:42):
And why is it so important for you to get an
answer to your question aboutthe slide at 12 am, your time?
Like, let's just breathe andwait, we'll take that.
Hilary Dudek (31:53):
Yes, yes, that would be cool if customer
support could influence the waythe world works.
I don't know, it's a prettylofty goal, but could imbue
everybody with a sense ofwork-life balance and pushing
back a little bit.
Are these slides really thatimportant?
Are they really due on the timeframe, or can we take another,
(32:15):
you know, six hours or whatever.
That would be full of support Ithink support does do that.
Sarah Caminiti (32:19):
I think in in its own way, it starts like you
have to be cognizant of thevalues of the company when you
are interacting with support you.
If you are setting yourself upwith fake expectations, that's
on you, because you didn't lookand see what the support policy
is, what's the sla, what's thelike, what are all of these
things that are associated withit.
(32:41):
And so if you're, if you are acompany that wants to create a
space for your team that iswhere they are allowed to enjoy
their downtime without having tohave Slack on their phone on,
just in case there's all thesefires that really aren't fires,
then the best way to do that isthrough customer support and
(33:02):
have that message be okay, like,we hear you, we're going to get
to you, we support you, we wantyou to be successful.
Here's our help center.
But but we have boundaries andand maybe they'll start thinking
, hey, wait a second.
They're allowed to haveboundaries in support.
Why don't we have boundaries insupport?
(33:23):
And maybe it could just liketrickle all around.
I mean, we're the voice of thecompany, we're the people that
are talking to the people.
Hilary Dudek (33:30):
Yes, I like it a lot.
Yes, everyone needs boundaries.
I like your perspective on that.
Sarah Caminiti (33:37):
So you know what I realized, Hilary, I never
gave you a chance to introduceyourself, so do you want to
introduce yourself?
Hilary Dudek (33:44):
Sure, I can do that.
I am Hilary.
I have been in the customersupport space since 2015.
I also started working remotelyin 2015.
I started as an agent andworked my way up to director
level, and currently I am thehead of community and support at
Gamma, which is an awesomeplatform for creating
(34:05):
presentations and websites.
So awesome.
Sarah Caminiti (34:07):
I love that you started in remote from the very
beginning for this sort of alike for your career and have
been building it ever since.
That's fantastic,Congratulations.
Hilary Dudek (34:18):
Thank you, yeah, it was definitely.
It was definitely before.
It was cool to do it.
What was cool is it came aboutthrough a connection from my
hospitality days, through myhotel days.
I worked at the front desk fora while, as a front desk
supervisor for five years.
Well, I was in the supervisorthe whole time, but I worked for
five years at a boutique hotelin Michigan and the Townsend
Hotel.
(34:39):
If you are familiar inBirmingham, it's Metro Detroit,
so you might not be Totally, butcool shout out, maybe someone
will be.
Yeah yeah, it's a sweet littlehotel.
One of the valets there went onto found Handshake and I stayed
connected to him.
Sarah Caminiti (35:12):
And that is how I started an agent at his job,
at his place, at his company,those connections and and not in
any sort of transactional way,but just like just be there, be
present with other people andand ask questions like who knows
what could come out of it.
Hilary Dudek (35:28):
Yes, absolutely Be present, be a good human, just
make connections.
I mean we weren't best friendsby any means, but you know I
enjoyed talking to everybodythere and that included Belvin
and Valley and you knowhousekeeping and so when you
make those connections, goodthings come out of it for
everybody.
So never be never be too goodto be nice to somebody or
(35:49):
friendly to somebody.
I think pretty much everyone inour community is.
Sarah Caminiti (35:54):
No, no.
I think that that is like acore value of every single
person that that I've comeacross and support where they
really do just want to take thetime to help.
They really do want to take thetime to support people and it's
the ones like you, Hilary, thatare moving up in the ranks of
spaces and showing the teamsthat you lead and the companies
that you enter that this is away to be successful and this
(36:17):
does hold value, and this isimportant that we'll hopefully
share, that it's possible withthe folks that are going to be
leaders after, exactly.
Hilary Dudek (36:27):
Exactly, you're doing the same thing.
We're all doing it in ourlittle parts of the world and I
love it just wholesome, healthyplaces to work for our agents
and for our teams, but also justfor the customers.
And, like you said, if you caneven influence just a couple
customers to think maybe I canhave boundaries or maybe my
(36:48):
company or my team can haveboundaries, you're doing good in
the world and that's awesome.
Sarah Caminiti (36:53):
I think so yeah, I mean, why not?
Why not try?
So I'm curious too, like whenworking with your, with the BPO
for the outsourcing for yourteam, like how are you, like,
how does that work withleadership, like for you as the
leader, if they're not folksthat you actually found and
(37:14):
hired and and and and, and Imean like you didn't hire them
yourself.
They're from this company thatyou, that you brought in.
So how is that dynamic and howare you able to kind of
influence their, their ways ofworking?
Hilary Dudek (37:28):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So obviously they onboarded thesame day as me, so I had zero
say in even picking the BPO, butthey are a newer one, they're
offshores, they're not US, and Ireally like them so far, so
that's helpful.
The primary thing that I'vedone is become very close with
their team lead.
Her and I have Slack all thetime.
(37:48):
We are constantly communicating.
We have a weekly standup thatwe attend and chat through
things, and so that's reallybeen the biggest part for me is
maintaining that connection withher.
We seem to think very similarlyabout things, which is great.
Our leadership approach ispretty much aligned, which is a
stroke of luck, but very nice.
(38:09):
So, like I said, the two thatcame on with her are still there
, and then we just hired thisother gentleman to work on the
weekend.
So it'll be interesting to seeif her, if she's remained
aligned with what she broughtwith the other two, if she
remains aligned with this way.
Um, it's just been a lot ofcommunication so far, just a lot
(38:29):
of slacking and meetings, andnot a ton of meetings but a lot
of slacking and just sharingideas and such that's that's
really nice.
Sarah Caminiti (38:36):
that's really nice because it could be such a
boundaries could be so blurryand and since you came on at the
same time, that probably wasthe perfect scenario to be able
to enter this space at the samelevel and navigate it together
and and build out what needed tobe built out in order to
support the team, especially ifyou're adding extra people too.
Hilary Dudek (38:57):
Yes, yes, and I think it established, like you
said, like this really good,like camaraderie, because, yeah,
I wasn't there first and thenhiring her, but she wasn't there
first and I came in.
So we learned together.
We onboarded, like theco-founders onboarded us in like
engineering and design a littlebit, so we got onboarded
together.
The BPO actually did a lot ofthe early documentation for
(39:21):
their processes as well, so likethey kind of took ownership of
that.
I've refined them a bit since,but like it's been very much a
collaborative approach and Ithink it's really helped us grow
together and help build trustas well.
Sarah Caminiti (39:35):
For sure.
That's the biggest thing withhaving any sort of outsourcing
is the trust aspect of it.
You have to have thatcamaraderie and that foundation
of trust in order for this to bean actual partnership, because
that's what it is at the end ofthe day.
Hilary Dudek (39:51):
Yes exactly.
Exactly so.
Yeah, well, we can do anothercheck-in in you know like a year
or something, but so far it'sbeen a really good few months
with them.
It's been about five months.
What's the company?
It's Horatio.
I know they were new to me too.
Sarah Caminiti (40:07):
I was like yeah, cool, um, okay.
So we are getting towards theend of our hour and uh, but I do
want to ask you, Hilary, so,with every person that I have
gift me with their time, I liketo take a second for you to
(40:27):
share what era you are in, orwhat era you are entering.
Hilary, what is your era?
Hilary Dudek (40:33):
I think my era is like I was trying to find one
word that would describe it.
I think I'm going to use flow.
I've just entered my flow era,where I have boundaries that are
super healthy and I'm notafraid to communicate them, but
I'm also just not operating froma scarcity mindset anymore.
(40:54):
I'm just like whatever's goingto happen is going to happen.
Whatever's going to happen isgoing to happen, and I know that
I'm equipped with lifeexperience and the tools that I
need to like get through itDoesn't matter how bad it is,
and so, like I'm just going torelax a little bit and not be so
stressed about it and not,things don't need to be so black
and white.
So flow seemed to be thecorrect word for that.
(41:16):
It can be adjective, it can benoun, but just I'm in my flow
era.
What's going?
Sarah Caminiti (41:21):
to be is going to be.
I love this era and I love thatit's really.
It's an ownership era too.
You are, as you should be proudof where you are in your career
.
You know what you know and youknow that you do it well, and
it's that so I've.
I've realized this too, with,too with the more people that I
talk to, it's shedding thatdesperation.
(41:43):
It's we're not desperate forthis.
It's like no, you need us, youneed Hilary to be successful,
for her to join your team,instead of you, Hilary, being
(42:03):
like please just say yes, I'lltake anything.
I'll take anything.
Too many people, myselfincluded, enter into those
spaces in the beginning of youknow, just don't say no, no,
you've earned it, you've earnedit 100%.
Hilary Dudek (42:19):
Exactly so have you Absolutely.
And there's a differencebetween making a grounded
cognitive decision to be youknow, I don't know assuming we
can assume like you're laid off,okay, I am going to take this
gap job, it is what it is, thisis what it's going to do, here's
the timeframe.
There's nothing wrong with that.
But making a cognitive decision, not a stressed out desperate
(42:43):
decision, I mean, it's very true.
The easiest way to like findyour next job is to already have
a job, because you're notoperating from that desperation
mindset.
So just clearing that out ofthe way.
You might have to do things youdon't want to do.
Sarah Caminiti (42:56):
Bad things may still happen to me or it may
still happen to you but like wecan control how we react to it,
yep, yep, and we are stillworthy of awesome things because
we have worked hard and deservethem.
Hilary Dudek (43:10):
It's, that's it exactly.
End of story.
Sarah Caminiti (43:12):
Yeah, period awesome what a perfect way to
end this, Hilary uh.
Hilary Dudek (43:15):
Thank you so much for your time yes, thank you so
much for having me.
This has been wonderful.
Sarah Caminiti (43:24):
I enjoyed actually getting to talk to you
face to face for once.
Thank you, Hilary, and thankyou, listeners, for tuning into
this episode of Epochal Growth.
I hope Hilary insights onsetting boundaries has given you
some practical tools and afresh perspective to manage your
personal and professional lifemore effectively.
Remember, setting boundariesisn't about saying no.
It's about creating the spaceyou need to thrive and protect
(43:45):
what matters most to you.
If you found value in today'sconversation, please subscribe
to the podcast, please leave areview and share it with your
network For more episodes andupdates.
You can find us wherever youlisten to your podcasts.
You can also find us on YouTube, where there'll be additional
clips and highlights from eachof the episodes.
Thank you again for listeningand until next time, let's keep
(44:08):
setting those boundaries andgrowing boldly.
I'm Sarah Kameniti.
This is Epochal Growth.
I hope you have a great day.
It is Tuesday and you know what that means A
new episode of Epochal Growth.
I am Sarah Caminiti, your host.
This is episode 16 of EpochalGrowth and I'm so happy that
you're here.
This is a podcast where weunlock transformative business
insights and leadershipstrategies.
We're going to be tackling areally important topic today
(00:31):
setting boundaries at work.
I feel pretty lucky today to bejoined by Hilary Dudek, head of
customer experience at Gamma.
She has a wealth of knowledgeand industry experience on how
to establish and maintaineffective boundaries in your
professional life and how thatimpacts your personal life too.
We're going to dive into somepractical tips on how to
communicate your boundariesclearly, the impact on
(00:53):
boundaries on team dynamics, thestrategies for creating a
culture that respects andupholds these limits, and how to
create a collaborativefoundation with your BPO.
I don't need to remind you tolike and follow and subscribe
and share this podcast withanybody that you think would
find it valuable.
If you think somebody couldlearn something wonderful from
these leaders, please pass thisepisode along, or any of the
(01:16):
other episodes of Epochal Growth.
All right, let's explore howyou can redefine your work
environment with strong andhealthy boundaries.
Are you ready to make a change?
Let's go.
Hilary Dudek (01:31):
It teaches you so many skills that I think
translate so well to customerservice and customer support
like not being afraid to talk toanybody and being able to hold
an interesting conversation,able to speak clearly you know
my diction has gotten very lazyover the years but in theory
have great diction, all sorts ofthings like that.
I think it's such a good skillset to have, even if you never
(01:54):
do anything with itprofessionally.
Sarah Caminiti (01:56):
I agree completely and I and I also
think that the ability to play arole also is something that, at
least for me, like it's shownitself in ways that I don't
realize until I'm likereflecting on it later.
But you know you, you'reallowed to, you know how to
approach things, like, okay,you've got an angry customer,
(02:17):
all right, well, let's, let'sjust meet them where they are
and and shift into that and kindof just make it less of a
personal experience, likepersonal, to it's impacting you
as a human being.
And more of all, right now Ineed to kind of to play this
role of this de-escalator and itdoesn't have anything to do
(02:38):
with me and be able to shifttone and context from person to
person that you're talking to.
I think a lot of that can comefrom a musical theater
background too.
Hilary Dudek (02:51):
I completely agree , and I think that lends itself
being able to put on a differentrole or persona.
I mean honestly similar to Inever worked at Disney, but it
seems similar to working atDisney Like I am now, this
customer service person thatcares so deeply and I'm going to
, you know, not take anythingpersonally.
But then you can drop thatpersona and it creates a
(03:11):
boundary between yourself andyour energy and the energy of
the person on the other end ofthe machine, and I think that's
something that's reallyimportant, especially in
industries that are alreadyreally tough to support, like
healthcare, for example.
I mean, healthcare is overall,a fairly depressing industry to
work in and customer support.
(03:31):
So if you can create thatpersona and use that as your
protection and your shield, Ithink it's a really great thing.
Sarah Caminiti (03:39):
I love that.
I love that you brought that upbecause it is creating that
boundary is one of those thingsthat you brought that up because
it's it is creating thatboundary is one of those things.
It's a skill that you have tolearn and you have to have been
burned probably a few times inorder to to understand, like,
where your limits are and whatactually happens when you give
yourself so fully to thecustomer and truly it does not
(04:01):
change the outcome for thecustomer experience.
If your heart and your soul andall of your emotions are tied
to the success of this person,you can still deliver that
incredible experience and saveyourself and your energy in the
process.
And that comes with time andit's an easy way to burn out and
(04:26):
not like this industry anymoreIf you don't uh, don't find that
that space.
But also, as a leader, it'ssuch a cool thing to teach
others how to do and make itfeel safe to do like,
acknowledge that, yeah, thissucks this, but this doesn't
have anything to do with you,and so let's figure out what we
(04:48):
can bring into this to, like youknow, make it so that you don't
feel so like depleted afterthese conversations.
Hilary Dudek (04:55):
Exactly, I 100% agree.
You shouldn't.
You shouldn't close your laptopor leave your office.
If you're working in office atthe end of the day and like,
bring those stories home withyou or that that other person's,
I guess, mess or energy,whatever you, you should have a
barrier between that becauseotherwise it's going to impact
(05:17):
you, it's going to impact yourfamily and friends and whoever
you're interacting with afterthat, and that's not fair to
anyone.
And, like you said, it's notproductive.
It'd be one thing if it wasproductive, if you were, I don't
know a surgeon thinking overthis person's problem and then
you come up with a solution.
That's probably a moreproductive use of your time,
although I would argue theystill need boundaries somewhere,
maybe just in a different way.
(05:38):
But, like you said, you canonly do so much.
Sarah Caminiti (05:48):
So at that point you have to be able to say I've
done what I can.
That's really sucks, but it'sgot nothing to do with me.
Yeah, and I think too, it canreally impact your self-esteem
and your self-worth If, everyday, you are allowing these
other people that you don't knowto speak to you poorly or to to
talk down to you or to justlike impact you in ways that
(06:10):
it's not appropriate or it's nothealthy, and if you don't have
a leader that's able to give youthat out of no, there is no way
that you are supposed to betreated this way.
There's no way that anyone isgoing to treat my team this way
and step in and and give youthat that freedom to say this
(06:32):
one has been a hard one, or I'mreally thinking it's leaning
into danger zone.
Can you just jump in hereplease, cause I just don't think
I have it in me to continue on?
This conversation gives yourteam just such a such an
opportunity to breathe and setsthe tone, but it really is up to
leadership to make that happen.
Hilary Dudek (06:54):
It really, really is, and that's something that
I've always strived to do andjust always make it known and
reiterate and then put it intoaction.
Of course it's one thing to saythings, but then if you don't
actually jump into theinteraction to support your
people, I think it's kind ofmeaningless.
But making it very clear thatyou know we have zero tolerance
policy for harassment and abuseverbal, any sort of abuse, any
(07:19):
sort of inappropriate language,language, I feel, when it's just
like our normal everyday fourletter words, I do feel like
there's some people that handlethose better than others.
So I've always blurred the linea little bit there.
You know, if someone's superangry and they're maybe swearing
at your product, for example,if you're the type of person
(07:40):
that is unbothered by that, thengreat like, just roll with it.
But if it's personal to you orwe're cursing people or, you
know, threatening people, that'sthat's something that just
won't be tolerated and I don'tcare.
I will go to back for you toleadership.
Hopefully we have a goodleadership team that will also
be on my side.
But like I don't care, I don'tcare if we lose that customer, I
(08:01):
don't care if we lose thatrevenue.
You're still human at the endof the day, this is just a job
in this capitalist hellscapethat we're living in, and it
doesn't matter.
Your personal well-being is notworth it.
Sarah Caminiti (08:14):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
And it doesn't even have toescalate to a point of a
four-letter word or actual abuse.
If it's like any feeling thatyou get when you are approaching
the conversation or somethinglike starts to get those feelers
up of, I don't really like thisanymore.
(08:34):
Um, then I always tell my team,like just call it, just call it
.
I would way rather you let meknow and uh, and bring me into
the fold then.
Then wait until it's it has hitthat point and you are feeling
those things, that they aresaying those words, because half
the time you just need to saythe exact same thing that
(08:55):
everyone's been saying to thisperson, but then put your title
at the bottom.
Hilary Dudek (09:02):
And, uh, you get it.
You understand, I know, earlyin my career I would go in and I
would do exactly that and Idefinitely had directs that were
like but I just said that I'mlike I know and it should matter
when you say it, and I'm sorrythat I didn't, but the fact that
yours says, you know, customersupport agent and mine says
customer support manager makes adifference.
(09:24):
It would also make a difference, probably, if I had a masculine
name versus a feminine name.
Sarah Caminiti (09:27):
So it it's out of your control, unfortunately,
the world we live in yeah, yeahand it's, and even like I love
that you said that the masculinething, because that's that is
so true.
I feel like I did.
I dream if someone did likeexperiment where they like
started, uh, a job and they theyhad uh, uh, they like there was
(09:49):
a misspelling or something withwith how, with their name, like
within the system, and and itbecame like a masculine
presenting name, and so theyjust kind of like rolled with it
and uh, and then they ended upswitching back to like who they
actually are and the differencein conversation and quality of
conversation was like nuts,which isn't surprising, but it's
(10:13):
still depressing.
Hilary Dudek (10:14):
Yes, no, you did not make that up.
I don't remember who did it andI don't know if they were part
of the community or if it wasjust a community member that
brought it up and talked aboutit, but that definitely happened
, 100%.
And I saw another article, amore recent one, where this
person I think she was anindividual contributor, she was
(10:35):
a consultant or something and soshe had a website with a AI
chat bot that had a masculinename or no.
It had a feminine, femininename and all the men were
hitting on it.
It was just a scheduling bot,that's all it did, and, like the
amount of men that would hit onit or ask it out was staggering
and they had never interactedwith it before.
(10:56):
And it was a whole article.
I'll have to find it and sendit to you, but that was
fascinating to me and alsoreally gross.
Wow, wow.
Sarah Caminiti (11:03):
Wow, wow, wow, wow.
What is that Like?
What a world we live in.
What a world we live in.
I mean, I've got a lot ofthoughts about that, but dang
like bold moves.
Hilary Dudek (11:18):
Bold, bold, bold, bold moves.
It's a bold strategy, kat yeah,Gosh.
Yeah, people are fascinating,but that's what drew me to
support and that's what I'vealways said in pretty much any
job interview I've ever had,starting from when I was really
young to even now.
Why do you want to do this?
People are fascinating.
(11:38):
They're absolutely fascinating.
They frustrate me.
Sometimes I hate them all,sometimes I love them all, but
they never cease to amaze.
I'll tell you that they keep itme.
Sometimes I hate them all,sometimes I love them all, but
they never cease to amaze.
I'll tell you that they keep itinteresting.
Humans are interesting.
Sarah Caminiti (11:49):
Yes, Yep, they are, and they are a puzzle and
every single person is a verydifferent puzzle.
And when you are able to workin support, you have the chance
to test out different puzzlepieces and experiment and be
surprised and, uh, I don't know,it's just, it's, it's such a
(12:11):
different, it's such a differentplace.
It's just, it's a special placeand that's why I think the
people that are in the communityare as special as they are,
because we all are here for areason, and uh and others
outside of our circle would notbe as successful or tolerate, uh
, the space, the way that wethrive in it.
Hilary Dudek (12:32):
I completely agree .
It definitely takes and it tookme a long time to understand
that that not that I'mspecifically like special, but
like in general, that customersupport, customer service,
people are unique and are giftedin that way.
For a long time I was just like, well, yeah, you just answer
(12:53):
the phone and you do thesethings, or well, yeah, you're
going to approach it this way,or, yeah, you're going to.
It was just of course you dothat, and then I would work.
I'm thinking back specificallyto, like, my days in hospitality
, when I was actually in personso I could like actually see how
other people were working,working at the front desk of a
hotel, and it was mind blowingto me that, like, truly like,
(13:14):
some people are not cut out forit.
I'm sure they have other giftsand talents that they should be
applying elsewhere, but, like,the amount of people that didn't
get it from a customer serviceperspective it was.
It was super eyeopening to meand it made me feel really good
about my career and where I'mgoing in it and that you know
this, this truly is a skill setthat not everybody has and
(13:36):
that's, that's awesome.
Sarah Caminiti (13:37):
Yes, 100%, it is a.
It's something that took me awhile too, and I've noticed for
a lot of folks, the journey toactually a career and being
proud of your career in supporthas been a long and bumpy
journey, and I mean, I thinksome of that has to do with tech
and the industry and actuallycreating a space for people to
(14:00):
like level up their career inthe support world and have it
not be just a stepping stone.
So the conversations have kindof changed in that regard, but
still, it is a group of peoplethat have to be clear
communicators.
They have to be able to bequick on their feet.
They have to be articulate butalso be able to to pivot.
(14:24):
They have to be articulate butalso be able to to pivot.
They have to be thoughtful andempathetic.
They have to be activelylistening.
They have to be doing all ofthese things.
And that's just in oneinteraction.
They've probably got sevenother interactions that they're
dealing with at the same exacttime and they're able to do it,
so yeah, it's a skill, it 100%is, and people should feel good
about having that skill set andand there's a use for it.
Hilary Dudek (14:45):
There's never going to be I, I so AI, robots,
ai, whatever it's never going toget to the point where you
won't meet a human.
You know, using hospitality,since I just used that as an
example, of course, you can likeautomate your check in and
check outs and honestly, Ireally like that because I like
not having to wait in line andtalk to a human.
At least one or two folks atthe front desk like your skills
(15:16):
will always be needed.
Fast food workers will alwaysbe needed, like delivery people,
all this customer service it'snot going away.
So why not double down and beproud of what you're doing and
like work to like just reallyexcel in those skill sets?
Sarah Caminiti (15:27):
Yes, totally it is.
It's so true that there is thisis a weird time.
That's like it's a positive anda negative thing.
That's happening right now withAI, with with the realization
of what support professionalsare actually doing, based on the
types of tools and analyticsthat are coming out of customer
support focused AI things,because these are things that
(15:51):
we've been doing manually foryears.
But I think that it's going tobe a huge shift in like a couple
of years, where all of theseplaces that are like, oh, we're
going to be totally AI, we'rejust going to totally lean into
AI.
This is the only way that we'regoing to do it.
You know, we're going to evendo AI on phone support why not?
(16:11):
And then they're going torealize oh, hey, yeah, no, we
have lost a huge amount ofcredibility of our customers, of
the type of like I don't knowbuzz around us, because now we
are known for deception and poorservice and making things
(16:33):
incredibly hard for customersand it's just it's going to
backfire very, very hard.
Hilary Dudek (16:38):
Yes, yes, a hundred percent.
Use AI, use these cool toolsthat are coming, because they're
very cool.
I work for a company that usesAI to build awesome slide decks,
but it's not replacing theperson delivering the
presentation.
It's not replacing the person.
It should make the customersupport person's job that much
(16:59):
easier they should be handling.
What I consider if you trulylove customer support is the fun
stuff, the complex puzzles, thereally tough things, the
mindless questions or whatever.
Those can be done away withabsolutely and, you know,
redirected to help center or theAI or whatever, but it's only
(17:21):
to make more room for thecustomer support person to do
their job as excellently as theycan.
That's just a skill set that Idon't think AI is ever going to
be able to replicate.
Sarah Caminiti (17:32):
No, no.
And even those ones that arethose like repetitive tasks or
questions.
I love those ones because Ithink that they are a gateway to
developing a relationship withthe customer, because you're you
are showing them that eventhese questions where you may
feel silly asking them becausethey seem so obvious, no, it's
(17:53):
still a safe space for you toask those questions.
And if you create that kind offoundational opportunity with
the customer, then you're ableto have a conversation about
their use case and reallyunderstand what's going on, why
they are having such a hard timeremembering their password or
why they're having such a hardtime like understanding this
(18:15):
little corner of things.
And if we just make theassumption that those questions
are just questions, like it'sjust like we miss out on so much
, that could happen.
Hilary Dudek (18:29):
I really like that perspective.
Um, I don't know that I 100%agree.
I don't know.
I have to think about thatbecause I just honestly, it
comes down in my mind.
It's like a triangle and at thevery base of it is prevention,
like your product should be goodenough or clean enough or
well-designed enough that folksdon't have questions and that
(18:51):
folks understand like, oh, I canreset my password here or
whatever the case may be, but ifyour product isn't there yet,
that's interesting.
Would you say that, even if youwere getting like 500 password
reset questions a day?
Sarah Caminiti (19:07):
Well, when I say that I don't, I mean that
because I'm a very data focusedperson, like I'm a very
analytical support professional,and like when I am looking at
things for those repetitivequestions like where you're just
sending out an article for theknowledge base, that is, that
starts to start the conversationof well, why didn't they know
(19:29):
to look at this on their own,what is it that they're missing
from the documentation?
Why isn't the forgot passwordthing as obvious?
And so it starts those, thewebs of those things.
Yes, and, and I do always worrythat you would miss out on
those sorts of analytics If youwere just sending everybody over
(19:50):
to, to a, to a bot or to thehelp center, because people are
still getting information,they're still needing
information, but you're not ableto extract it as easily.
But what I really mean is Ithink that there is too much of
a negative vibe to simplequestions coming into support,
(20:15):
and those are going to alwayshappen and and you are
responsible for analyzing themand finding out why they're
doing it.
But also, those are stillvaluable questions, that that
are coming from your customer,and they are still open for
conversation and opportunitiesto create a foundation.
Hilary Dudek (20:37):
Okay, your clarification makes a lot of
sense to me and I agree with you.
I agree with that.
I like being able to see thedata from my bot, for example I
actually don't have a bot rightnow for support but see the data
and then say okay, they'veasked this question 500 times,
(20:58):
why are they asking this?
And then taking steps to figurethat out and reduce it and
maybe that is removing the bot,so I can actually talk to these
people and understand why ormaybe it's doing something else.
These people and understand whyor maybe it's doing something
else.
But I agree that like there isthis sort of not taboo but like
(21:20):
these easy questions shouldn'tbe asked.
Well, but they're, they areasking them.
So like, let's figure out why.
Sarah Caminiti (21:26):
I agree with that A hundred percent.
Yeah, yeah, no, and, and, and Ithink that if you're getting
500 questions about something ina day, the bigger question is
what the heck are you doing tocreate a product that is having
500 questions about the sameexact thing?
Like is that?
Was this a slow ramp?
Hilary Dudek (21:45):
Yes, or has this always been 500?
Like we need to have aconversation because that is
intense for no reason.
Yes, prevention begins in theproduct, so that's where you're
going back to your product team.
Why is this button here, or whyisn't there a button here or
whatever?
(22:05):
That is maybe, yes, a hundredpercent.
Um, we don't need to go out ofour way to make things hard for
the customer or make them askthose silly questions or those
simple questions.
But no, what I really like aboutmy current role is that there's
a huge emphasis on listening tothe customer, and so not only
myself, but a lot of the designteam especially hops on calls
(22:29):
with our power users all thetime and I really, really love
that.
First of all, before me and the, the engineering and design
teams were doing supportthemselves, so they're very
empathetic to what it looks liketo their customers, but they're
taking the time to listen evennow and say, okay, like, why are
you using it this way?
Oh, oh, this is a use casewe've never thought of.
(22:50):
That's actually really cool.
We could build this way.
Oh, this is a use case we'venever thought of.
That's actually really cool.
We could build this thing tosupport this use case.
So listening makes a world ofdifference.
Sarah Caminiti (23:00):
I love that.
I'm so glad that you're in aspace like especially because
you had mentioned when we weregoing over who you are before
the podcast that you havepreviously been in a very
different space for support in alarger space from where you are
before this, before the podcast.
That you have previously beenin a very different space for
support in a larger space forfrom where you are now and and
that's great that you're able toenter into a company that has
(23:24):
already set a tone with theircustomers of value, of listening
, of impact, of community andtransparency, which happens when
you have those developers andengineers and product folks
coming into the conversation.
And so I'd love to know, like,how you have approached this
with them in and included theother teams in the conversation
(23:48):
as you've been navigating,entering into this different
space.
Hilary Dudek (23:51):
Yeah, something that we did that I think is
really cool is that weimplemented a tool called
cannyio.
It's a feedback tool, and soit's very simply placed inside
of our product menu so, like, ifyou're going to contact support
, you can also see the option toprovide feedback, and that
board is monitored by primarilydesign.
(24:13):
Engineering gets in there too,but primarily like the
co-founders, myself and design,and we respond to nearly every
single person that leaves acomment.
I'm sure this will becomeunscalable at some point, but
right now, like my designer,nick, is in there all the time
Like, oh my gosh, tell me aboutthis.
Why are you asking?
If you can embed this this way,like, what are you doing?
(24:35):
Tell me about this, let's hopon a call.
Here's my calendar, like, and Ican see how he's interacting
too, which you know, sincedesign and engineering were
doing support before I came on.
It was actually a very.
It helped me ramp up faster tosee how they were interacting,
but also, just I'm seeing, okay,and then I can go follow up
with Nick.
Hey, you know, I saw you talkto David.
(24:56):
What did David have to say?
And sometimes I end up talkingto them too, and so it's a
really cohesive flow ofinformation.
We also have Slack channels thatwe post in very regularly and
it's all very early stagestartup.
I mean there's 16 of us, sothere's no like set protocol,
(25:18):
nothing's in stone, but we alljust we take our feedback and we
put it in the beta feedbackchannel and we all talk about it
.
There's just a lot ofdiscussions happening all the
time that are very organic andour product is very creative.
It's a platform that you canuse to make presentations or a
website or an ebook.
I've seen people make a websitefor their restaurant
(25:41):
family-owned restaurant so it'svery flexible and fluid, and so
we're kind of taking thatflexible, fluid approach as well
and we're not locking into anyone thing, which I think is
really cool.
I started to ramble a littlebit, but basically, like, using
shared platforms like Canny umreally helps facilitate those
internal conversations.
Sarah Caminiti (26:01):
No, I love that you are in such a collaborative
space and I mean, 16 folks isactually from from, because I
come from bootstrap world and sothat's uh, that's like
long-term company team size inin a lot of regards like uh
that's yeah, yeah, 16, and I'vebeen early stage startups like
(26:27):
this before, for example,Handshake, I was the 13th um and
I watched it scale and grow.
Hilary Dudek (26:32):
But it's so nice to be back to what feels like my
roots with this really tight,close-knit team.
I mean, they've never had anyattrition, like the entire team
is completely intact, which Ilove, and they just they just
get stuff done, but it's not ina it's not a hustle mentality.
Sarah Caminiti (26:49):
We're doing stuff constantly, we're
constantly talking to people whoare constantly iterating, but
it's not like a overworkyourself, don't have work-life
balance type of hustle, and Ireally appreciate that, oh,
that's so good, because there issuch a difference, especially,
at least like I've seen since Istarted building teams and then
reflecting on the teams thatI've been in in my career and in
(27:11):
that kind of a mentality, thework that you produce when you
are in that crazy hustle,intense space is not of the same
caliber as the work that youproduce when you actually are
allowed to be thoughtful withyour time and purposeful and and
like thorough and and you justthere's so many opportunities
(27:33):
for dropping the ball orforgetting something or or just
like skipping over it becauseyou're so stressed about the
timeline and and to to build aculture around.
No, we hired you because you'rereally good at what you do and
we want you to be able to dothat to the capacity that you
see fit, and here is the spaceto do it.
(27:54):
That's when things reallyreally shine.
Hilary Dudek (27:57):
Yes, 100% agree and I mean I've been in the
office one time with them.
They're they're mostly inoffice.
I mean they work like remotelyfrom an hour away, but they're
mostly in office.
I'm one of the only few peoplethat are remote, truly remote,
um, but just seeing them worktogether as well is so cool
because, yeah, it's just thisopen floor plan and folks are
(28:19):
typically quiet and focused, butlike if an ad hoc conversation
needs to come up, it comes upand then we just go back to our
work but it's not a forced thing.
Or there's no forced like notthat stand-ups are a bad thing,
but there's no like forcedstand-ups or forced meetings for
the sake of having meetings andchecking boxes.
It's really all right.
Use your time and the output,from what I can see so far, has
(28:41):
been, like you said, farmerquality, because they have the
time and the space to actuallydo their work really really well
and based on actual feedbackfrom customers or from support.
So that's just.
I hope we never lose it.
It's lovely.
Sarah Caminiti (28:57):
It's awesome.
Are you starting to like createthe policies and the procedures
and all of like, the actuallike locked in stuff right now,
or is that something that you'regoing to hold off on until you
start building out a team?
Hilary Dudek (29:09):
So I do have a really small team.
They're outsourced at the BPO.
They came on at the same timeas me and so I manage them.
I'm starting to build those out, but it's pretty minimal at
this point.
Our product also isn't.
I mean, it is complex, but youdon't need a ton of policies yet
(29:30):
at this point.
It's more like, okay, when dowe refund, when do we not?
Things like that.
We're working on an abuse andmoderation policy, because we
should have at least a barebones basic one at this point.
But, um, yeah, so starting todocument those things, but it's
not a pressing need at thispoint, because we're not.
We're not throwing bodies ontothe team, just bodies.
(29:53):
You know, we just raised ourseries a, which is super
exciting.
We just announced it yesterday.
But we're not going to justthank you.
I did it myself not at all, um,but we're not going to just
thank you.
I did it myself Not at all.
But we're not going to juststart throwing bodies at things.
Sarah Caminiti (30:06):
So yeah, that's I mean.
You have to do that.
You have to do that withsupport.
You have to be aware of thevolume, understand the customer
and how to how to give them whatthey need.
But also don't set the tone of,yeah, we're always going to get
back to you in like fiveminutes because we're always
here, we never are away, becausethat also is when you start to
(30:30):
think about it, like from theirperspective, of like no, we want
you to have your weekend too.
We want you to take the timewith your family too.
Like, we are here when it isappropriate.
China we have a lot of folks inKorea.
Hilary Dudek (31:06):
We have Germany starting to kind of be a big,
booming one, Brazil, so we are.
I am going to have somebodystart working on the weekends,
but I hired him specifically forweekends and so you know he
gets his two days off during theweek.
And yeah, outside of thosehours still like we're not 24
seven support, we just have youknow all all the days covered.
Yeah, Outside of that stilllike we're not 24 7 support, we
just have you know all all thedays covered.
Yeah, outside of that.
No, you're not getting aresponse like look at our help
center.
We have tons of really cooltutorials on youtube and I plan
(31:28):
on making more like check outour resources.
We'll get back to you becauseeveryone deserves that work-life
balance and honestly like, whyare you making a slide at like
12 am your time?
Go to bed?
Sarah Caminiti (31:42):
And why is it so important for you to get an
answer to your question aboutthe slide at 12 am, your time?
Like, let's just breathe andwait, we'll take that.
Hilary Dudek (31:53):
Yes, yes, that would be cool if customer
support could influence the waythe world works.
I don't know, it's a prettylofty goal, but could imbue
everybody with a sense ofwork-life balance and pushing
back a little bit.
Are these slides really thatimportant?
Are they really due on the timeframe, or can we take another,
(32:15):
you know, six hours or whatever.
That would be full of support Ithink support does do that.
Sarah Caminiti (32:19):
I think in in its own way, it starts like you
have to be cognizant of thevalues of the company when you
are interacting with support you.
If you are setting yourself upwith fake expectations, that's
on you, because you didn't lookand see what the support policy
is, what's the sla, what's thelike, what are all of these
things that are associated withit.
(32:41):
And so if you're, if you are acompany that wants to create a
space for your team that iswhere they are allowed to enjoy
their downtime without having tohave Slack on their phone on,
just in case there's all thesefires that really aren't fires,
then the best way to do that isthrough customer support and
(33:02):
have that message be okay, like,we hear you, we're going to get
to you, we support you, we wantyou to be successful.
Here's our help center.
But but we have boundaries andand maybe they'll start thinking
, hey, wait a second.
They're allowed to haveboundaries in support.
Why don't we have boundaries insupport?
(33:23):
And maybe it could just liketrickle all around.
I mean, we're the voice of thecompany, we're the people that
are talking to the people.
Hilary Dudek (33:30):
Yes, I like it a lot.
Yes, everyone needs boundaries.
I like your perspective on that.
Sarah Caminiti (33:37):
So you know what I realized, Hilary, I never
gave you a chance to introduceyourself, so do you want to
introduce yourself?
Hilary Dudek (33:44):
Sure, I can do that.
I am Hilary.
I have been in the customersupport space since 2015.
I also started working remotelyin 2015.
I started as an agent andworked my way up to director
level, and currently I am thehead of community and support at
Gamma, which is an awesomeplatform for creating
(34:05):
presentations and websites.
So awesome.
Sarah Caminiti (34:07):
I love that you started in remote from the very
beginning for this sort of alike for your career and have
been building it ever since.
That's fantastic,Congratulations.
Hilary Dudek (34:18):
Thank you, yeah, it was definitely.
It was definitely before.
It was cool to do it.
What was cool is it came aboutthrough a connection from my
hospitality days, through myhotel days.
I worked at the front desk fora while, as a front desk
supervisor for five years.
Well, I was in the supervisorthe whole time, but I worked for
five years at a boutique hotelin Michigan and the Townsend
Hotel.
(34:39):
If you are familiar inBirmingham, it's Metro Detroit,
so you might not be Totally, butcool shout out, maybe someone
will be.
Yeah yeah, it's a sweet littlehotel.
One of the valets there went onto found Handshake and I stayed
connected to him.
Sarah Caminiti (35:12):
And that is how I started an agent at his job,
at his place, at his company,those connections and and not in
any sort of transactional way,but just like just be there, be
present with other people andand ask questions like who knows
what could come out of it.
Hilary Dudek (35:28):
Yes, absolutely Be present, be a good human, just
make connections.
I mean we weren't best friendsby any means, but you know I
enjoyed talking to everybodythere and that included Belvin
and Valley and you knowhousekeeping and so when you
make those connections, goodthings come out of it for
everybody.
So never be never be too goodto be nice to somebody or
(35:49):
friendly to somebody.
I think pretty much everyone inour community is.
Sarah Caminiti (35:54):
No, no.
I think that that is like acore value of every single
person that that I've comeacross and support where they
really do just want to take thetime to help.
They really do want to take thetime to support people and it's
the ones like you, Hilary, thatare moving up in the ranks of
spaces and showing the teamsthat you lead and the companies
that you enter that this is away to be successful and this
(36:17):
does hold value, and this isimportant that we'll hopefully
share, that it's possible withthe folks that are going to be
leaders after, exactly.
Hilary Dudek (36:27):
Exactly, you're doing the same thing.
We're all doing it in ourlittle parts of the world and I
love it just wholesome, healthyplaces to work for our agents
and for our teams, but also justfor the customers.
And, like you said, if you caneven influence just a couple
customers to think maybe I canhave boundaries or maybe my
(36:48):
company or my team can haveboundaries, you're doing good in
the world and that's awesome.
Sarah Caminiti (36:53):
I think so yeah, I mean, why not?
Why not try?
So I'm curious too, like whenworking with your, with the BPO
for the outsourcing for yourteam, like how are you, like,
how does that work withleadership, like for you as the
leader, if they're not folksthat you actually found and
(37:14):
hired and and and and, and Imean like you didn't hire them
yourself.
They're from this company thatyou, that you brought in.
So how is that dynamic and howare you able to kind of
influence their, their ways ofworking?
Hilary Dudek (37:28):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So obviously they onboarded thesame day as me, so I had zero
say in even picking the BPO, butthey are a newer one, they're
offshores, they're not US, and Ireally like them so far, so
that's helpful.
The primary thing that I'vedone is become very close with
their team lead.
Her and I have Slack all thetime.
(37:48):
We are constantly communicating.
We have a weekly standup thatwe attend and chat through
things, and so that's reallybeen the biggest part for me is
maintaining that connection withher.
We seem to think very similarlyabout things, which is great.
Our leadership approach ispretty much aligned, which is a
stroke of luck, but very nice.
(38:09):
So, like I said, the two thatcame on with her are still there
, and then we just hired thisother gentleman to work on the
weekend.
So it'll be interesting to seeif her, if she's remained
aligned with what she broughtwith the other two, if she
remains aligned with this way.
Um, it's just been a lot ofcommunication so far, just a lot
(38:29):
of slacking and meetings, andnot a ton of meetings but a lot
of slacking and just sharingideas and such that's that's
really nice.
Sarah Caminiti (38:36):
that's really nice because it could be such a
boundaries could be so blurryand and since you came on at the
same time, that probably wasthe perfect scenario to be able
to enter this space at the samelevel and navigate it together
and and build out what needed tobe built out in order to
support the team, especially ifyou're adding extra people too.
Hilary Dudek (38:57):
Yes, yes, and I think it established, like you
said, like this really good,like camaraderie, because, yeah,
I wasn't there first and thenhiring her, but she wasn't there
first and I came in.
So we learned together.
We onboarded, like theco-founders onboarded us in like
engineering and design a littlebit, so we got onboarded
together.
The BPO actually did a lot ofthe early documentation for
(39:21):
their processes as well, so likethey kind of took ownership of
that.
I've refined them a bit since,but like it's been very much a
collaborative approach and Ithink it's really helped us grow
together and help build trustas well.
Sarah Caminiti (39:35):
For sure.
That's the biggest thing withhaving any sort of outsourcing
is the trust aspect of it.
You have to have thatcamaraderie and that foundation
of trust in order for this to bean actual partnership, because
that's what it is at the end ofthe day.
Hilary Dudek (39:51):
Yes exactly.
Exactly so.
Yeah, well, we can do anothercheck-in in you know like a year
or something, but so far it'sbeen a really good few months
with them.
It's been about five months.
What's the company?
It's Horatio.
I know they were new to me too.
Sarah Caminiti (40:07):
I was like yeah, cool, um, okay.
So we are getting towards theend of our hour and uh, but I do
want to ask you, Hilary, so,with every person that I have
gift me with their time, I liketo take a second for you to
(40:27):
share what era you are in, orwhat era you are entering.
Hilary, what is your era?
Hilary Dudek (40:33):
I think my era is like I was trying to find one
word that would describe it.
I think I'm going to use flow.
I've just entered my flow era,where I have boundaries that are
super healthy and I'm notafraid to communicate them, but
I'm also just not operating froma scarcity mindset anymore.
(40:54):
I'm just like whatever's goingto happen is going to happen.
Whatever's going to happen isgoing to happen, and I know that
I'm equipped with lifeexperience and the tools that I
need to like get through itDoesn't matter how bad it is,
and so, like I'm just going torelax a little bit and not be so
stressed about it and not,things don't need to be so black
and white.
So flow seemed to be thecorrect word for that.
(41:16):
It can be adjective, it can benoun, but just I'm in my flow
era.
What's going?
Sarah Caminiti (41:21):
to be is going to be.
I love this era and I love thatit's really.
It's an ownership era too.
You are, as you should be proudof where you are in your career
.
You know what you know and youknow that you do it well, and
it's that so I've.
I've realized this too, with,too with the more people that I
talk to, it's shedding thatdesperation.
(41:43):
It's we're not desperate forthis.
It's like no, you need us, youneed Hilary to be successful,
for her to join your team,instead of you, Hilary, being
(42:03):
like please just say yes, I'lltake anything.
I'll take anything.
Too many people, myselfincluded, enter into those
spaces in the beginning of youknow, just don't say no, no,
you've earned it, you've earnedit 100%.
Hilary Dudek (42:19):
Exactly so have you Absolutely.
And there's a differencebetween making a grounded
cognitive decision to be youknow, I don't know assuming we
can assume like you're laid off,okay, I am going to take this
gap job, it is what it is, thisis what it's going to do, here's
the timeframe.
There's nothing wrong with that.
But making a cognitive decision, not a stressed out desperate
(42:43):
decision, I mean, it's very true.
The easiest way to like findyour next job is to already have
a job, because you're notoperating from that desperation
mindset.
So just clearing that out ofthe way.
You might have to do things youdon't want to do.
Sarah Caminiti (42:56):
Bad things may still happen to me or it may
still happen to you but like wecan control how we react to it,
yep, yep, and we are stillworthy of awesome things because
we have worked hard and deservethem.
Hilary Dudek (43:10):
It's, that's it exactly.
End of story.
Sarah Caminiti (43:12):
Yeah, period awesome what a perfect way to
end this, Hilary uh.
Hilary Dudek (43:15):
Thank you so much for your time yes, thank you so
much for having me.
This has been wonderful.
Sarah Caminiti (43:24):
I enjoyed actually getting to talk to you
face to face for once.
Thank you, Hilary, and thankyou, listeners, for tuning into
this episode of Epochal Growth.
I hope Hilary insights onsetting boundaries has given you
some practical tools and afresh perspective to manage your
personal and professional lifemore effectively.
Remember, setting boundariesisn't about saying no.
It's about creating the spaceyou need to thrive and protect
(43:45):
what matters most to you.
If you found value in today'sconversation, please subscribe
to the podcast, please leave areview and share it with your
network For more episodes andupdates.
You can find us wherever youlisten to your podcasts.
You can also find us on YouTube, where there'll be additional
clips and highlights from eachof the episodes.
Thank you again for listeningand until next time, let's keep
(44:08):
setting those boundaries andgrowing boldly.
I'm Sarah Kameniti.
This is Epochal Growth.
I hope you have a great day.
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