August 14, 2025 • 47 mins
AI is changing faster than ever—raising big questions for all of us. Is it good or bad? What's at stake if the church stays silent? On the next Equipped, guest host Collin Lambert talks with Dr. K. She'll help us unpack the risks, the redemptive possibilities, and why she calls this AI moment "a Gospel moment." How can believers use AI in ways that honor God? Don't miss this timely conversation on the next Equipped.
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:19):
Well. Hey there friends, welcome to another exciting edition of
equip with Chris Brooks! I'm so thrilled that you've joined
us today. Do me a favor strap on your seat
belt as we navigate through the contours of culture, as
always with the lens of the biblical worldview on. But
before we do that, let me remind you, this is
the day that the Lord has made. He is giving
(00:40):
it as a gift so that you and I can
rejoice and be glad in it. So let's do just that.
Let's follow the words of the Apostle Paul. Let's rejoice
in the Lord always. And again I say, rejoice. Today
I want you to help me to welcome to the
hot seat my good friend Colin Lambert. Colin is a
man of God who ministers through radio for decades, including
(01:02):
many years at Moody Radio. He's the host of Missions
today and is passionate about seeing people across the globe
growing Christ Jesus. Colin, thanks for leading this edition of Equip.
S2 (01:16):
Chris, great to be here with you folks. Glad to
be with you as well. Thank you for joining us
on Equipped with Chris Brooks today, we've got a important
topic to cover. Uh, it's AI, artificial intelligence. And the
question we're going to ask today is, is this AI
moment a gospel moment? Is this AI moment a gospel moment?
(01:38):
That's something we're going to try to answer today. And
we've got somebody I think is going to help us
do a pretty good job of that. Doctor Kay. Doctor
Kay is an AI consultant, a theologian, an ethicist, a
thought leader whose blend of expertise spans both US national
security theology, bioethics and leadership development. Doctor Kay has committed
(02:00):
to the Christian community and ministry through her consulting with
Faith tech. She has led with her pioneering and disability
ministry efforts with Johnny and friends. Hopefully we get a
chance to talk a little bit about that. She's a
prolific author. She's written a book called Hope's Horizon From
Chatbots to Jesus Return, and she is all over the
(02:24):
place talking about this topic on a regular basis, and
we're thrilled to have her with us today. Doctor K,
welcome to equipped with Chris Brooks.
S3 (02:32):
Well, thank you so much, Colin. It is a pleasure
to be with you and with your guests. So, um, yeah,
thank you so much.
S2 (02:40):
Uh, let's start with this. Is AI good or bad?
Can we make that call today?
S3 (02:46):
Uh, yeah. That bifurcation and binary, uh, kind of, uh,
we hear that bifurcation quite a bit. And I think
that I think there's some merit to, to this sort
of question. I would give some nuance to it to, um, that, uh,
as someone who really engages with this technology for a
(03:06):
living and I've been doing this for quite some time.
I actually did it, uh, in national security studying as well.
I do see AI as and you can think about
this more broadly. I see AI as a mirror that
reflects our fallen humanity back to us with sometimes, sometimes
uncomfortable clarity. So if we if we think about it
(03:27):
this way, AI systems are trained on human data. Our writings,
our conversations, our decisions for millennia. And you know, these
AI systems do not ever forget. So when we interact
with AI frontier models, we're essentially we're essentially seeing a
(03:48):
reflection of ourselves. Sometimes we can see some of our
best moments, but sometimes too, we can see our biases,
we can see our fears, and yes, even our sinfulness
reflected back to us. So this is the nuance I
would I would bring to the conversation, though, Colin. Uh,
I think the real question here isn't whether AI is
(04:10):
necessarily good or bad in that binary sense, but rather
what what kind of humans are we becoming as we
build and use these systems? I think that is a
deeper theological and discipleship question that we we often entertain
and think about at us and for us. Everything points
(04:32):
back to Jesus and the Jesus revival we want to
bring about in and through tech. So this is that's
that's exactly how I would frame this nuance, what kind
of humans call it. Are we becoming as we build
and use these systems?
S2 (04:48):
Hmm. Let me pause for just a moment and ask
you about faith tech. Can you? For those who aren't
familiar with it, can you tell us about it?
S3 (04:56):
Yes, absolutely. Faith tech, uh, exists to bring about a
Jesus revival, uh, in and through technology all around the globe.
We have a number of communities and cities around the
globe where We're technologists, builders, developers can get together in
community and build redemptively for Jesus. We're just beginning this
(05:19):
create program and it's a place for community. It's a
place to be embodied, uh, for Jesus and build tech
and to bring about that revival not only, uh, definitely
in our cities, but in technology, uh, settings and organizations
as well. And this is an incredibly critically important thing
to be able to do, to have the the global
(05:40):
church be a voice in these larger tech companies. Right?
Because these systems are embedded in every single institution around
the world. So that's what we do.
S2 (05:50):
Yeah. That's great. Uh, most of us may be familiar
with AI in in little bits and pieces. I don't
know if it started before the 2000, but that's when
I guess I first start thinking about it is when
mobile phones began to be little computers that could answer
questions for you. You might be able to give us
a little more history about when it actually began. But
(06:12):
I always kind of think of the early 2000, what
has happened in AI over the last few years. It
seems like it's just exploded recently.
S3 (06:21):
Yeah. I mean, that's true. It's kind of it has
been around and other terms, you know, as early as,
as as the 50s and 60s in machine learning and
so forth. And it had very narrow scope. And it
wasn't it wasn't certainly wasn't public at that time. I
want to say I would think about it like this.
And you're right. Um, it's embedded everywhere, especially in our cell,
(06:41):
our smartphones and in every system. Um, but if you
think about our first contact in the most recent history,
our first contact with AI being social media. Now, there's
a lot of talk about that these days. And so, um,
if you think about social media, we can think about
curation AI. That was our first contact and what the
(07:04):
what the aim was or the objective in Silicon Valley
was about getting our attention and engagement right. That's what
social media was all about. And that was a very,
very narrow, narrow form of AI. Now, in this second contact,
many would say the third contact we're in now with
(07:24):
the new Agentic era that we're in in 2025. But
our second contact was creation AI. And that's what we
see today with GPT, right, with generative AI and so forth.
And um, so we can think about the most recent
history kind of in those two contexts. Yes, in the smartphones,
(07:44):
but with social media more narrow now with generative AI.
So just one just one example here. And I think
that this will resonate with every with with your audience here.
But imagine imagine if three years ago, just three years ago,
we told you that we could have a conversation with
(08:05):
a computer that could help us write a letter, maybe
explain some of our medical tests, create a bedtime story
for our kids or grandkids, or even help us to
plan a dinner, a dinner party, or a vacation all
by just talking like you were talking to a friend. Well,
(08:26):
this is exactly what we can do today with AI.
There are some. There are a couple other, uh, distinctives
that I think are very important to point out here
about why this AI moment is not only a gospel moment,
but it's a different moment when we think about other
technological revolutions. And in three short points, Colin here for
(08:50):
the first, and I'd like for us all to really
contemplate this, because this is where the church can play
a fundamental role. But for the first time in human history,
we must share our cognitive and the intellectual space with
I frontier models that can act and think autonomously. Think
(09:11):
about ChatGPT Google, Gemini, Claude, anthropic Claude or llama or grok.
And for the first time in human history, we have
general purpose intelligent technology that can improve itself on its own.
And it touches every single one of our industries. And
(09:33):
this general purpose technology has implications for every single institution
on the planet, including the global church. And so we
can sum it up by saying this. The democratization of
this very powerful technology will change how we think about
expertise in coming years, amongst other things. But I can
(09:57):
say it like that. And so one simple and this
is just a simple Statement that people can think about.
Think about it this way. Technology of the past changed
what we did. AI technology today can change how we
think about who we are. It's pushing those boundaries. That's
(10:20):
what I'd say.
S2 (10:21):
It's incredible to to think through all of what you've
just described. And really the movement of AI technology over
the years and where we are getting to today, and
we're going to come back to that in just a moment.
When we come back, we'll talk about some of the positive,
redemptive aspects of AI, and we'll talk about some of
the concerns as well. And don't forget, we're going to
(10:44):
get to the part about what the church should be
or is doing with AI. All of that's coming up
in our conversation with doctor K. You can get involved
as well. 3675. You can find out all about doctor
K and her information at our website, Radio.com. I know
(11:09):
some of you will want to get right in there,
and maybe even get that book. Hopes arisen from chatbots
to Jesus return again. Phone lines open (877)Â 548-3675. We'll be
back with more of equipped with Chris Brooks and Doctor
K coming up in just a moment. Stay with us.
S1 (11:34):
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want to help you enjoy a daily conversation with the Lord.
This is why I'm offering The Quiet Time Kickstart by
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(11:56):
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S2 (12:13):
Welcome back to equipped with Chris Brooks. I'm Colin Lambert
sitting in today. My thanks to our team in Chicago.
Ryan is at the controls. Lisa is producing Anthony answering
your phone calls today. And my thanks to my friends
here at the Bridge Radio in Austin, Texas. They've made
their studios available to me to be with you today.
(12:33):
Our guest is doctor K, an AI consultant, theologian, ethicist,
and thought leader. Uh, she is helping us answer today
the question, is this AI moment a gospel moment? Just
before the break, we were talking about some of the
uses of AI technology. Right now, we will be digging
more deeply into that, and especially what the church as
(12:55):
a whole can be and should be doing with AI.
But before we get there, let me remind you, the
phone lines are open. 87754836758775483675. If you have a question
or comment for our guest doctor Kay, you've we've talked
about good or bad and and how humankind will use
(13:18):
this tool and are using it. What are some of
the positive redemptive aspects of generative AI?
S3 (13:25):
Yeah, that is a that is a very important question.
And one of the things we love to talk about
at tech is redemptive AI. So let me lay this
out because this is this is, uh, very much connected
to this AI moment being a gospel moment, but redemptive
AI first and foremost asked some very different questions that
(13:47):
ask some deeper theological questions. So instead of just asking
the question, uh, how can we use AI more efficiently, Gently,
we ask in terms of the redemptive AI framework, how
might I participate in God's redemptive story? How can it
(14:08):
participate in God's redemptive story instead of just optimizing for engagement,
which is on everyone's lips in terms of responsible and
not redemptive AI? We look for and think about how
we can design AI and products for spiritual formation and
(14:28):
for discipleship. And so if you'll allow me, um, call
in to be able to talk about this AI within
this framework, um, about this, this AI moment being a
gospel moment. Um, because I think that this is where
the church can really step in and be a voice
and make a difference as this technology embeds every system. Um, first,
(14:53):
there's evidence because of this technology and it's all over.
If you look at the research, even just on social media,
some of the research. There's evidence of an unanticipated existential
crisis globally because of this technology and this crisis. Though
this crisis could open doors to a spiritual awakening globally.
(15:18):
Think Matthew 28 here I can raise very profound questions
about human purpose and place in the world. And in fact,
what is happening is this could allow us to step
into what we call the wisdom gap. Now, the wisdom
gap is not original to me. The wisdom gap is
a concept that actually came out by an organization called
(15:43):
the center for Humane Technology. And it talks about quite
a few institutions stepping into that wisdom gap created by
this technology. It doesn't mention the church, which is why
I'm talking about it from the perspective as a Christian.
So I want to talk a bit about the connection
between this I moment being a gospel moment, and the
wisdom gap that the church needs to step into. So
(16:07):
what the wisdom gap is, is this there's an increasing
complexity of AI technology, and anyone who even just pays
minimal attention to what's going on, it's just coming at
us so quickly. So there's an increasing complexity of AI,
coupled with a waning ability of us humans and institutions
(16:27):
to respond timely and appropriately. So what this does is
create this huge gap between the complexity and our ability
to respond. And this is not just about the understanding
the technology better. Yes, we have to understand it, but
it's about much, much more. This is about being able
to proclaim the profound truth about Jesus in that wisdom gap.
(16:53):
And think about it this way as AI becomes increasingly
more sophisticated and complex, many find themselves grappling with a
deeper sense of insignificance. And some humans, um, are really
feeling so diminished by these thinking models that can process,
create reason with extraordinary speed and capability far beyond human capacity.
(17:18):
And so just I want to give you one statistic
that really lays this out. And it's so important. This
is from a 2024 study. And Colin I can even
provide this study for you. But one of the things
it points out is that there is a soaring existential anxiety.
This peer reviewed 2024 study says that there's a high
(17:39):
prevalence of existential anxieties related to the rapid advancements in AI,
and strikingly, 92%, or 92.7% of participants reported anxiety about
life's meaningless meaninglessness due to AI, and 79% felt a
(18:00):
sense of of emptiness. And that is why when I
think about this wisdom gap, I look at this and say,
this AI moment is definitely a gospel moment, and that
is the profound truth. This is the profound opportunity we have.
This very crisis of human identity represents our greatest opportunity
(18:25):
to advance the Great Commission. Right. And so think about
the wisdom gap as advancing the Great Commission.
S2 (18:34):
Yeah.
S3 (18:35):
So that is positive. That is redemptive.
S2 (18:39):
That's a positive thing. That's super positive. But and let
me just clarify for those who are listening and maybe
just for myself, part of that, what you've just described
in that study is almost the feeling of being, and
a fear that many of us are facing, a fear
of being replaced by this kind of technology. It's already
(19:00):
happening in some places across the country, some workplaces already
replacing people with, uh, mechanical or, or, uh, this type
of AI technology.
S3 (19:12):
That is exactly right. That's one. So there's the economic aspect. Um,
and there's also, I mean, in you and I spend
quite a bit of time on, uh, because I want
to understand to more broadly the cultural temperature, if you will,
when it comes to this sort of, uh, this technology
(19:33):
that is general purpose and intelligence. I really want to
understand how people are processing, seeing this existentially. So I
spent a lot of time on Reddit and discord to
get that cultural temperature. And everywhere in every industry, you
begin to see it not only economically, but existentially. And
(19:54):
so this is where I think you know, that the
church certainly has a role to to step in and
talk about the truth of Jesus. And yes, we can
have a voice to begin to to shift the to
shift the paradigm and shift the narrative about putting redemptive
I first and foremost before these tech companies. And you
(20:14):
know what? Here's the thing. In a lot of these
tech companies like meta and OpenAI and Google, there's a
lot of great Christians that work there, and we can
support them in this, if that makes sense.
S2 (20:29):
Yes. Yeah. And, you know, it seems also at this
moment for the church, and I want to get to
the church here in just a moment. This this moment
is also a time where when people are feeling this,
when they are reporting this and experiencing this, and 92%
are saying this is an issue. This is where the
church can be talking about, uh, the, the value of
(20:53):
the human being, the value of the individual, not because of, uh,
something happening in the world, not because of their circumstances,
not because of technology, but because God created them in
his image.
S3 (21:07):
Yes. Yes. And we could say much, much more about that. Uh,
and there's other questions that we should raise within that,
within that, um, sort of paradigm as well, because, uh,
and I get this, you know, I spent 13 years
working for, um, Johnny and Friends and Joni Erickson Tada,
who was just I can't I can't say enough of
(21:30):
about who she really is and what she, what she represents.
But one of the things I mean, when it comes
to the image of God, you know, it is it
is not about traits. It's about who we are. Because,
you know, people with disabilities especially, you know, a lot
of times their humanity would be called into question because
(21:51):
they might be on the spectrum, or they didn't have
a voice, or they they were in a wheelchair. So
we've dealt with that all the time now. I is
just raising. It's just making more visible, kind of and
pushing the church to really think about, well, what does
it mean to be made in the image of God?
What are we really talking about? And this has everything
(22:11):
to do with stepping into this wisdom gap. And this
is that's what I, this I moment is the gospel moment.
S2 (22:19):
Yeah. For sure. You mentioned Johnny and Friends and I,
in your introduction talked about you helping her ministry with
some things. Is there something you can share with us
about what you did in in putting your resources and
your time and effort into helping Johnny and friends?
S3 (22:38):
Yeah, yeah, so I started I was a professor at
Biola in Talbot for 20 years, and I stayed working
there part time when I went to Johnny and Friends
full time in 2007. And what what me and my
colleague did, Steve Bundy, is we stood up the Christian
Institute on Disability within Johnny and Friends. And so we
(22:59):
developed a curriculum Beyond Suffering, and we had an internship
program and public policy to address a lot of the
issues related to disability ministry in the church and disability
ministry globally. I mean, there's 1 billion people and more, uh,
affected by disability around the world. So that's what we did.
(23:20):
And we educated we equipped the church to be able
to go out and take the gospel to those with disabilities,
much like I'm doing right now. And we're doing that
faith tech to bring the gospel to those who who
work in and through tech. That's and that's the connection.
S2 (23:38):
I love that. Thank you for sharing that because I,
Johnny and friends, good friends of folks in Christian radio
and Johnny. Well loved by by so many. Thank you
for your work there and for sharing what you did there.
We're coming up on a break in just a moment,
but I just kind of on my sheet of paper
here in front of me had drawn a little diagram
(23:58):
of what and how potentially I could impact the church.
I just want to share a couple of thoughts, and
then I'm going to have you comment when we come
back from this break. But as I was writing down here,
several tracks within the church for I, for instance, pastors,
it could help them craft sermons, it could create topics,
or it could be a topic from the pulpit. What
(24:20):
kinds of things should pastors be doing? Congregations. It's a
learning opportunity for congregations. How about missions? I know it's
being used already in Bible translation. What about growth plans
for missions? Could it be used in that way? And theology,
is it trustworthy? You've mentioned a couple of seminaries that
you've been tied to, and one of the questions that
(24:42):
I think we need to touch on is it's great
that it's there. It's collecting all this data. But in
the midst of somebody asking a question, wanting an orthodox
biblical answer, could unorthodox or unbiblical pieces of information be
getting into the answer for the question we ask? Those
are just a couple of the things I'm thinking through.
(25:04):
And when we come back with doctor K in just
a moment, uh, we're going to dig into more about
what the church can and should and is doing with
AI right now, because that really is the big question.
Is this AI moment a gospel moment? I think from
what we've already heard, we can tell it is and
it can be. But what should the church be doing?
(25:26):
Church pastors, church leaders? And how might it affect missions
and mission activity? We're going to talk about that and
more coming up with doctor K in just a moment
right here on equipped with Chris Brooks. (877)Â 548-3675 is our number.
If you have a question or comment, maybe you've had
some interactions with AI you'd like to talk about that,
or maybe a question about it. (877)Â 548-3675. Nothing to be
(25:52):
afraid of, but we do need to make sure we're
using it in the best way possible. (877)Â 548-3675. Back with
doctor K and more. Have equipped with Chris Brooks coming
up in just a moment. Welcome back to equipped with
(26:20):
Chris Brooks I'm Colin Lambert sitting in for Chris today.
Continue to pray for Chris and his family. I know
he would appreciate that. Our topic today is is this
AI moment a gospel moment? Our guest is doctor K,
an AI consultant, theologian, ethicist, thought leader, author her book
Hope's horizon from chatbots to Jesus return. And in the
(26:43):
first half hour of the program, we really were laying
some groundwork, talking about what AI is all about, good
or bad, what kinds of things do we need to
be thinking about as we work with AI? And I
want to move now into what the church should, can,
and is doing with AI right now, just before the break. Uh,
Doctor Kay, I was talking about some of these different
(27:05):
elements of the church the pastors, the congregation, missions, theology departments.
ET cetera. ET cetera. So many different, uh, ways that
I could impact the church. Let me just start with
a basic question. I'm assuming your answer would be yes
to should the church be involved with and utilizing AI? Uh,
(27:26):
what can and should the church be doing right now?
S3 (27:30):
Yeah. That's it. And and that is a long question
and a question. It's an operational question that I think
is critically important. And there's there's theological and discipleship questions
that come along with that. The short answer is, is yes,
and to use it with wisdom and discernment. So some
of my concerns there, they're twofold. When we think about this,
(27:54):
the first is Bible literacy and I literacy. Um, and
so a lot of times, you know, like for instance, um,
you know, in prompting one of these models and, and
then it gets like, oh, tell me about, you know,
say John 316 and its connection to, uh, this other
(28:16):
passage and so forth. One of the things that we
have to do is have when when the output is
and it answers the question, uh, is to be able to,
as President Reagan would always say, well, yeah, you need
to verify and you need to validate that, that those,
those points. Right. Use it, but use it with discernment
(28:37):
And with wisdom and guidance, and that necessitates that we
know something about what Scripture says to begin with. And
we don't rely not only on a chat bot, but
anyone else. Right. So and understanding, like I said before,
I can be a mirror and it can reflect some
of our best and some of our writings. It's trained
on that data, but it also represents a lot of
(28:59):
our fallen human nature as well. And I and in
that sense, it could be instructive as well. I could
speak a little bit more to that, but yes, using
it to help outline and research for sermons, um, missions. Um,
some of our like high impact use cases, as we
call them, with Bible translation and looking at the digital church.
(29:22):
And how can we interact with the digital church and
where places where people can't meet us in person? Uh,
a lot of that is understanding how to use it
with wisdom and also knowing our Bibles well enough to, to,
to be able to have that sort of discernment. And,
you know, that's that's more demanding. It's demanding for us
(29:43):
to have that, um, that sort of Bible literacy so
that we understand interpretations and we can point out and
see where a model might not be correct and be
able to, to to say, oh, no, that's not quite correct.
But this is and so feed this back into your data.
So you Saddam Hussein. So it's iterative and it's a responsibility.
(30:08):
And one of the things I like to talk about
or to mention here too, is we as Christians should
resist the tyranny of convenience. Okay.
S2 (30:18):
Yes.
S3 (30:18):
One of the one of the things that that this
technology allows us is, hey, just put in a prompt,
it can create all our sermons and our Bible, you know,
our Sunday School lessons and so forth, and we can
give in to that tyranny of convenience and not rely
on on the wisdom and guidance and spirit that God
has given us to be able to interact with His Word,
(30:40):
and that's demanding of us, and we have to go.
We have to develop out that counter-narrative, right, and not
give over so much of our autonomy, uh, to AI.
So yes, I'm an AI consultant, and yes, there's a
place for it. But part of redemptive AI framework is,
is having the wisdom and the Bible literacy here to.
S2 (31:01):
Yeah. Phone lines are open. Eight, seven. Yes. Absolutely. 87754836758775483675.
Let's go to the phones. Bob, you're in Chicago. Thanks
for calling. Today your question or comment for doctor K?
S4 (31:18):
Well, it's kind of a question, but it's more of
a comment. Does not A.I., to one degree or another
preclude our dependency upon the Holy Spirit when we have
questions or need God's, uh, and direct input.
S2 (31:37):
Great question.
S3 (31:37):
Question. Yeah. And you know what. And and I would
agree and I so I'm not one. And that gets
to I think what I was just talking about with
Bible literacy wisdom and hearing the hearing the voice of
the Holy Spirit, which we all have as Christians to. But, um,
I think another thing is not putting putting God's Holy
(32:02):
Spirit in a box as well. I think he can
work through all kinds of technology. Um, and, and he
works through, just in general, revelation understanding. He works in,
in the physical world. Um, but that doesn't preclude our, our, um, our,
our discernment. And we certainly don't want to rely just
(32:26):
simply on AI chatbots for any sort of guidance. And that's,
that's that is the tension that we walk. That is
the tension that we have today. And that's why I
would say to not to give in to that tyranny
of convenience. Um, I do think there's ways in which
God can call us to account in ways, um, and
(32:50):
I can go a little bit more into some of
those questions, because I think Bob's question is very poignant
and leads to other issues that we need to think
about as Christians. But, Bob, thank you so much for
that question. I totally, totally resonate with you.
S2 (33:06):
Yeah, Bob, thanks for your call. I actually was going
to ask that question when Bob called, so I wanted
him to, uh, to go ahead and ask it himself.
And I think, you know, the the tyranny of the
urgent or the tyranny of, of convenience can certainly be
a part of this. I know I've used it before
(33:27):
or asked, uh, you know, ChatGPT to give me a,
you know, give me a five minute devotional on this
topic and it it shoots something out and it's pretty decent.
I mean, it's sound, it's biblical. I checked the references.
It all looks good. But then I'm sitting there thinking,
now I did that. It took two seconds and I
didn't pray about it. The Holy Spirit didn't give me
(33:48):
any direction on it. Uh, it's not even tied to
my life, really. It's just kind of something created. I
began to realize. And you talked about this earlier. What
kind of humans are we becoming? That really is part
of answering part of that question. We have become a
community of people who are totally interested in convenience and
(34:11):
something like I. It's so easy for us to use
it in whatever format, whether it's a biblical Christian format,
a church format, or a work format or a school format.
We just want to get the job done and get
it done quick, and I is going to do that
for us. How do we I mean, we've gotta we've
gotta up our self-control a little bit, don't we?
S3 (34:32):
Yes. That's right. And this gets down to and this
really is about practicing the spiritual disciplines and what this is.
This is why, because of this tyranny of convenience. Because
and I would say too, that this I moment is
a gospel moment for this very reason. I think that
that the church is being challenged right now with this
(34:55):
journey of convenience, exactly to the point you just made
about the fact that Chat or Claude or Gemini can
can just with one prompt, give us exactly what we
need and we go about our day. That is not
what discipleship is about. Right. Um, and so that's why
(35:15):
if if you allow me just because this is important
discipleship question and this is something, um, I think about,
for instance, I will ask the question, what's the one
question that every Christian should ask themselves about their I use. Okay.
And these are some of the things that keep me
(35:37):
up at night. As a Christian who served our country
and came back into ministry. And so this is a question, Colin,
I'm going to put this out here, and I'd love
to hear from the audience as well. What is this
one question? Here it is for me. When, when when
has an I response ever made you uncomfortable with your
(36:02):
own question? So we can ask the question and to
what degree do we ever feel uncomfortable about this? And
what I mean by this is that in a lot
of ways, AI is making certain things more transparent about
who we are and the humans we're becoming. It can
(36:23):
reveal our lack of patience. Why else would people prefer
to talk to AI companions that never tire of listening?
It's exposing, I think, some of our, you know, some
of our, um, impatience. Um, and listen to this. AI
does not condemn us for our questions. I think in
(36:46):
some sense, it's showing our inability to truly be present
with other people. And so I believe at the deeper level,
I believe this transparency about human nature is actually God's
gift in some way. If we listen to it. We
can no longer hide behind facades, I think. So the
(37:06):
question is, will we allow this, this as it exposes
maybe our impatience and our driving other people who are
lonely to chatbots. Will this drive us to the wisdom
gap and to the only one who can save us
from this predicament? Right. So when we see our impatience
(37:27):
with these rapid fire questions that we give to to AI,
when we realize that we're using AI to to avoid
difficult conversations, and when we prefer some of these non-judgmental
responses to human accountability. These are the divine appointments, I think,
to lead us back to Jesus. Exactly what you said, Colin.
(37:50):
I just said it a little bit more long winded.
Sorry about that.
S2 (37:54):
No great, great information. I think it's super helpful. We're
going to come back in just a moment with more
of your phone calls. (877)Â 548-3675. A fascinating conversation about artificial intelligence,
what we should and should not be doing, and what
the church can and cannot be doing with AI. Where
does the spirit fit in? Where do we fit in,
(38:17):
and what do we need to learn? How do we
prepare for the next iteration of AI? All of that
coming up with your calls in just a moment. (877)Â 548-3675. Again,
all the information about today's programme, along with the audio
after we finish today will be at equipped Radio.com. Is
this I moment a gospel moment? We believe so. What way?
(38:39):
We'll talk more about it when we come back in
just a moment with doctor K. Stay with us for
more of equipped with Chris Brooks.
S1 (38:57):
In today's rapidly changing culture, Christians need solid biblical guidance
more than ever. That's our mission here at Equip to
provide biblical wisdom for life's toughest questions. When you step
in as an equipper, you're not just giving your monthly
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(39:19):
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S2 (39:38):
As followers of Christ, we know that daily time in
God's Word matters, but often distractions can make it hard
to stay consistent. Now is a perfect time to refresh
or begin this life giving habit. We would love to
send you a copy of The Quiet Time Kickstart by
Rachel Jones. It's a compact guide that starts small and
(39:59):
helps you build a steady, meaningful rhythm in Scripture, setting
you up for ongoing success. You can request your copy
with a gift of any amount to equipped. You can
call 8644 4144 or go to equipped radio. I'm Colin
Lambert sitting in for Chris today on equipped with Chris Brooks.
(40:20):
Our guest is doctor K, an AI consultant, theologian, ethicist, author,
thought leader, and boy, what a fascinating conversation. Today we're
going to go back to your phone. Uh, phone calls. (877)Â 548-3675. Chris,
you're calling from Nashville, Tennessee today. Your question or comment
for our guest?
S5 (40:41):
Yeah. Um, this is an amazing conversation, and I'm so
glad that you're having it. And to be honest, I'm
I'm shocked that I haven't heard it at church yet. Um,
and that's kind of part of my question. Um, I'm
just wondering, in light of the tyranny of convenience that
(41:01):
you're talking about, which I've never heard about. That's amazing. Uh,
way of thinking about it. Um, what are some healthy
practices as we approach just the, the, uh, kind of
that moment where we have a thought. We have a
question and we go, oh, I could build a prompt
(41:24):
or like what? What what are the healthy ways to
to kind of resist that tyranny of convenience when it
comes to AI. And then also how do we respond, uh,
to those prompts? What's the healthy way, what's the biblical
way to respond to those prompts when we do? Because
(41:45):
I'll be honest, I don't think I filter anything. I just,
you know, it's like when I googled things, I just
Google it and and look and kind of just take
it or. Well, I had a little filtering to do,
but now it's like I get this voice and I
just receive it, um, which is scary. Um, and I
guess maybe the last part of that, the church part
(42:05):
is how do we teach this to our churches? How
do we how do we teach this to our kids? Um,
so yeah, anyway, a bunch of things.
S2 (42:14):
Great questions. Thank you. Chris. Uh, doctor K, give it
a shot.
S3 (42:18):
Oh. Thanks, Chris. I mean, yeah, you had several. Several
parts to your question there, which are all relevant and
salient and and tough ones for us to the last question, uh, first, uh,
and the church, um, and teaching, I think leaning into
biblical literacy, first and foremost, uh, is critically important in
(42:40):
this I age. And then understanding how to, to, uh,
prompt in such a way that we become more challenged, uh, by,
by some of this interaction with these AI systems, which
we simply can't avoid anymore. So those are two, two
parts to it. And also, uh, realizing there are ways
(43:04):
with these models. And this is what I'm saying too.
And I go back to my footstomp here on this
AI moment being a gospel moment that, um, this is right.
I mean, and this is the temptation and this is
the business model too is it's called a persuasive psychology
technology that this is a lot of times we don't
(43:25):
step back and verify and validate some of the outputs,
and that is something we have to do. And we
have to think about this in terms of biblical literacy
and AI literacy as, um, a spiritual discipline. This is
a new spiritual discipline that we must have today. Uh,
and this technology is forcing us to have that. Uh,
(43:48):
and I love and appreciate so many of Chris's, uh,
questions along those lines. And I would encourage that this
process is more demanding. Um, but it is a counter-narrative
to the tyranny of, of convenience to see this as
a spiritual discipline and try to understand and pray about. Lord,
how are you using this today? Uh, and here's the
(44:11):
thing for us, though, to Colin, is like when we
humans See ourselves in some ways reflected in being shaped
by these AI systems, including their biases and limitations and
so forth. And we are confronted with these truths about
ourselves that we can no longer deny. This is where
(44:33):
it is a turn back to God's Word that that
should be an about face, back to God's Word and
back to Jesus, the only one that can save us
from this.
S2 (44:45):
Yeah. Chris, thank you so much for your questions. And, uh,
we don't have time for another call. I do want
to share quickly because, uh, and this is just a
general question about AI. Nancy from Illinois asked the question,
how do you credit AI if you're doing research, it
doesn't always give you where it's getting the answer from.
S3 (45:06):
Yeah. And not I have access to some of the
most capable models, but actually you can prompt them for
their sources. And that's a part of the validation process.
I think that as a more capable models become free
subscription free subscriptions, if you will. You can ask for
those sources and validate them and then and then actually
(45:27):
quote them as well with the sources. You put the
source in there and say, this was from chat and
you validated it.
S2 (45:34):
Yeah. That's helpful. Super helpful. Wow, what a conversation. And again,
as Chris mentioned, just, uh, amazing that we're talking about it.
And boy, an encouragement to each one of us not
to get caught up in the tyranny of convenience. Let's
make sure we are like the Bereans and going back
and checking the scriptures. Let's make sure that our, our,
(45:55):
our spiritual maturity is at the point that we can
see when something is wrong or mistaken, when we print
it out from AI. Let's make sure that our churches
are discipling people in such a way that the their
knowledge of the scriptures is strong enough to be able
to do that. And let's make sure in all of it,
we do it through prayer and engagement with the Word
(46:18):
of God on a regular basis. Doctor Kay. Fascinating. Again,
great to talk to you. Thanks so much. For your information.
We'll direct people to you and your book and other
information at Radio.com. Thank you so much for your time today.
S3 (46:33):
Thank you, I appreciate it.
S2 (46:36):
Yeah, well, something to think about. Maybe you'll keep that
on your mind for the next little while and even
listen to this program again, or share it with others.
If you know some friends who are interested in AI,
maybe you've had some conversations about AI. This program will
be available a little later today. Grab it and send
it out to some friends. Let them take a look
at it as well. So thankful for you being with
(46:57):
us today, and thankful to Chris for allowing me to
sit in this seat. Equipped with Chris Brooks is a
production of Moody Radio, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
Well. Hey there friends, welcome to another exciting edition of
equip with Chris Brooks! I'm so thrilled that you've joined
us today. Do me a favor strap on your seat
belt as we navigate through the contours of culture, as
always with the lens of the biblical worldview on. But
before we do that, let me remind you, this is
the day that the Lord has made. He is giving
(00:40):
it as a gift so that you and I can
rejoice and be glad in it. So let's do just that.
Let's follow the words of the Apostle Paul. Let's rejoice
in the Lord always. And again I say, rejoice. Today
I want you to help me to welcome to the
hot seat my good friend Colin Lambert. Colin is a
man of God who ministers through radio for decades, including
(01:02):
many years at Moody Radio. He's the host of Missions
today and is passionate about seeing people across the globe
growing Christ Jesus. Colin, thanks for leading this edition of Equip.
S2 (01:16):
Chris, great to be here with you folks. Glad to
be with you as well. Thank you for joining us
on Equipped with Chris Brooks today, we've got a important
topic to cover. Uh, it's AI, artificial intelligence. And the
question we're going to ask today is, is this AI
moment a gospel moment? Is this AI moment a gospel moment?
(01:38):
That's something we're going to try to answer today. And
we've got somebody I think is going to help us
do a pretty good job of that. Doctor Kay. Doctor
Kay is an AI consultant, a theologian, an ethicist, a
thought leader whose blend of expertise spans both US national
security theology, bioethics and leadership development. Doctor Kay has committed
(02:00):
to the Christian community and ministry through her consulting with
Faith tech. She has led with her pioneering and disability
ministry efforts with Johnny and friends. Hopefully we get a
chance to talk a little bit about that. She's a
prolific author. She's written a book called Hope's Horizon From
Chatbots to Jesus Return, and she is all over the
(02:24):
place talking about this topic on a regular basis, and
we're thrilled to have her with us today. Doctor K,
welcome to equipped with Chris Brooks.
S3 (02:32):
Well, thank you so much, Colin. It is a pleasure
to be with you and with your guests. So, um, yeah,
thank you so much.
S2 (02:40):
Uh, let's start with this. Is AI good or bad?
Can we make that call today?
S3 (02:46):
Uh, yeah. That bifurcation and binary, uh, kind of, uh,
we hear that bifurcation quite a bit. And I think
that I think there's some merit to, to this sort
of question. I would give some nuance to it to, um, that, uh,
as someone who really engages with this technology for a
(03:06):
living and I've been doing this for quite some time.
I actually did it, uh, in national security studying as well.
I do see AI as and you can think about
this more broadly. I see AI as a mirror that
reflects our fallen humanity back to us with sometimes, sometimes
uncomfortable clarity. So if we if we think about it
(03:27):
this way, AI systems are trained on human data. Our writings,
our conversations, our decisions for millennia. And you know, these
AI systems do not ever forget. So when we interact
with AI frontier models, we're essentially we're essentially seeing a
(03:48):
reflection of ourselves. Sometimes we can see some of our
best moments, but sometimes too, we can see our biases,
we can see our fears, and yes, even our sinfulness
reflected back to us. So this is the nuance I
would I would bring to the conversation, though, Colin. Uh,
I think the real question here isn't whether AI is
(04:10):
necessarily good or bad in that binary sense, but rather
what what kind of humans are we becoming as we
build and use these systems? I think that is a
deeper theological and discipleship question that we we often entertain
and think about at us and for us. Everything points
(04:32):
back to Jesus and the Jesus revival we want to
bring about in and through tech. So this is that's
that's exactly how I would frame this nuance, what kind
of humans call it. Are we becoming as we build
and use these systems?
S2 (04:48):
Hmm. Let me pause for just a moment and ask
you about faith tech. Can you? For those who aren't
familiar with it, can you tell us about it?
S3 (04:56):
Yes, absolutely. Faith tech, uh, exists to bring about a
Jesus revival, uh, in and through technology all around the globe.
We have a number of communities and cities around the
globe where We're technologists, builders, developers can get together in
community and build redemptively for Jesus. We're just beginning this
(05:19):
create program and it's a place for community. It's a
place to be embodied, uh, for Jesus and build tech
and to bring about that revival not only, uh, definitely
in our cities, but in technology, uh, settings and organizations
as well. And this is an incredibly critically important thing
to be able to do, to have the the global
(05:40):
church be a voice in these larger tech companies. Right?
Because these systems are embedded in every single institution around
the world. So that's what we do.
S2 (05:50):
Yeah. That's great. Uh, most of us may be familiar
with AI in in little bits and pieces. I don't
know if it started before the 2000, but that's when
I guess I first start thinking about it is when
mobile phones began to be little computers that could answer
questions for you. You might be able to give us
a little more history about when it actually began. But
(06:12):
I always kind of think of the early 2000, what
has happened in AI over the last few years. It
seems like it's just exploded recently.
S3 (06:21):
Yeah. I mean, that's true. It's kind of it has
been around and other terms, you know, as early as,
as as the 50s and 60s in machine learning and
so forth. And it had very narrow scope. And it
wasn't it wasn't certainly wasn't public at that time. I
want to say I would think about it like this.
And you're right. Um, it's embedded everywhere, especially in our cell,
(06:41):
our smartphones and in every system. Um, but if you
think about our first contact in the most recent history,
our first contact with AI being social media. Now, there's
a lot of talk about that these days. And so, um,
if you think about social media, we can think about
curation AI. That was our first contact and what the
(07:04):
what the aim was or the objective in Silicon Valley
was about getting our attention and engagement right. That's what
social media was all about. And that was a very,
very narrow, narrow form of AI. Now, in this second contact,
many would say the third contact we're in now with
(07:24):
the new Agentic era that we're in in 2025. But
our second contact was creation AI. And that's what we
see today with GPT, right, with generative AI and so forth.
And um, so we can think about the most recent
history kind of in those two contexts. Yes, in the smartphones,
(07:44):
but with social media more narrow now with generative AI.
So just one just one example here. And I think
that this will resonate with every with with your audience here.
But imagine imagine if three years ago, just three years ago,
we told you that we could have a conversation with
(08:05):
a computer that could help us write a letter, maybe
explain some of our medical tests, create a bedtime story
for our kids or grandkids, or even help us to
plan a dinner, a dinner party, or a vacation all
by just talking like you were talking to a friend. Well,
(08:26):
this is exactly what we can do today with AI.
There are some. There are a couple other, uh, distinctives
that I think are very important to point out here
about why this AI moment is not only a gospel moment,
but it's a different moment when we think about other
technological revolutions. And in three short points, Colin here for
(08:50):
the first, and I'd like for us all to really
contemplate this, because this is where the church can play
a fundamental role. But for the first time in human history,
we must share our cognitive and the intellectual space with
I frontier models that can act and think autonomously. Think
(09:11):
about ChatGPT Google, Gemini, Claude, anthropic Claude or llama or grok.
And for the first time in human history, we have
general purpose intelligent technology that can improve itself on its own.
And it touches every single one of our industries. And
(09:33):
this general purpose technology has implications for every single institution
on the planet, including the global church. And so we
can sum it up by saying this. The democratization of
this very powerful technology will change how we think about
expertise in coming years, amongst other things. But I can
(09:57):
say it like that. And so one simple and this
is just a simple Statement that people can think about.
Think about it this way. Technology of the past changed
what we did. AI technology today can change how we
think about who we are. It's pushing those boundaries. That's
(10:20):
what I'd say.
S2 (10:21):
It's incredible to to think through all of what you've
just described. And really the movement of AI technology over
the years and where we are getting to today, and
we're going to come back to that in just a moment.
When we come back, we'll talk about some of the positive,
redemptive aspects of AI, and we'll talk about some of
the concerns as well. And don't forget, we're going to
(10:44):
get to the part about what the church should be
or is doing with AI. All of that's coming up
in our conversation with doctor K. You can get involved
as well. 3675. You can find out all about doctor
K and her information at our website, Radio.com. I know
(11:09):
some of you will want to get right in there,
and maybe even get that book. Hopes arisen from chatbots
to Jesus return again. Phone lines open (877)Â 548-3675. We'll be
back with more of equipped with Chris Brooks and Doctor
K coming up in just a moment. Stay with us.
S1 (11:34):
Do you wish your quiet time was more meaningful? I
want to help you enjoy a daily conversation with the Lord.
This is why I'm offering The Quiet Time Kickstart by
Rachel Jones as this month's impact gift. With shorter scripture
passages and simple notes, this resource gently guides you into
a consistent, rewarding time in God's Word. Request your copy today.
(11:56):
When you support equip, call 888644 Four. 41. 44. Or
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S2 (12:13):
Welcome back to equipped with Chris Brooks. I'm Colin Lambert
sitting in today. My thanks to our team in Chicago.
Ryan is at the controls. Lisa is producing Anthony answering
your phone calls today. And my thanks to my friends
here at the Bridge Radio in Austin, Texas. They've made
their studios available to me to be with you today.
(12:33):
Our guest is doctor K, an AI consultant, theologian, ethicist,
and thought leader. Uh, she is helping us answer today
the question, is this AI moment a gospel moment? Just
before the break, we were talking about some of the
uses of AI technology. Right now, we will be digging
more deeply into that, and especially what the church as
(12:55):
a whole can be and should be doing with AI.
But before we get there, let me remind you, the
phone lines are open. 87754836758775483675. If you have a question
or comment for our guest doctor Kay, you've we've talked
about good or bad and and how humankind will use
(13:18):
this tool and are using it. What are some of
the positive redemptive aspects of generative AI?
S3 (13:25):
Yeah, that is a that is a very important question.
And one of the things we love to talk about
at tech is redemptive AI. So let me lay this
out because this is this is, uh, very much connected
to this AI moment being a gospel moment, but redemptive
AI first and foremost asked some very different questions that
(13:47):
ask some deeper theological questions. So instead of just asking
the question, uh, how can we use AI more efficiently, Gently,
we ask in terms of the redemptive AI framework, how
might I participate in God's redemptive story? How can it
(14:08):
participate in God's redemptive story instead of just optimizing for engagement,
which is on everyone's lips in terms of responsible and
not redemptive AI? We look for and think about how
we can design AI and products for spiritual formation and
(14:28):
for discipleship. And so if you'll allow me, um, call
in to be able to talk about this AI within
this framework, um, about this, this AI moment being a
gospel moment. Um, because I think that this is where
the church can really step in and be a voice
and make a difference as this technology embeds every system. Um, first,
(14:53):
there's evidence because of this technology and it's all over.
If you look at the research, even just on social media,
some of the research. There's evidence of an unanticipated existential
crisis globally because of this technology and this crisis. Though
this crisis could open doors to a spiritual awakening globally.
(15:18):
Think Matthew 28 here I can raise very profound questions
about human purpose and place in the world. And in fact,
what is happening is this could allow us to step
into what we call the wisdom gap. Now, the wisdom
gap is not original to me. The wisdom gap is
a concept that actually came out by an organization called
(15:43):
the center for Humane Technology. And it talks about quite
a few institutions stepping into that wisdom gap created by
this technology. It doesn't mention the church, which is why
I'm talking about it from the perspective as a Christian.
So I want to talk a bit about the connection
between this I moment being a gospel moment, and the
wisdom gap that the church needs to step into. So
(16:07):
what the wisdom gap is, is this there's an increasing
complexity of AI technology, and anyone who even just pays
minimal attention to what's going on, it's just coming at
us so quickly. So there's an increasing complexity of AI,
coupled with a waning ability of us humans and institutions
(16:27):
to respond timely and appropriately. So what this does is
create this huge gap between the complexity and our ability
to respond. And this is not just about the understanding
the technology better. Yes, we have to understand it, but
it's about much, much more. This is about being able
to proclaim the profound truth about Jesus in that wisdom gap.
(16:53):
And think about it this way as AI becomes increasingly
more sophisticated and complex, many find themselves grappling with a
deeper sense of insignificance. And some humans, um, are really
feeling so diminished by these thinking models that can process,
create reason with extraordinary speed and capability far beyond human capacity.
(17:18):
And so just I want to give you one statistic
that really lays this out. And it's so important. This
is from a 2024 study. And Colin I can even
provide this study for you. But one of the things
it points out is that there is a soaring existential anxiety.
This peer reviewed 2024 study says that there's a high
(17:39):
prevalence of existential anxieties related to the rapid advancements in AI,
and strikingly, 92%, or 92.7% of participants reported anxiety about
life's meaningless meaninglessness due to AI, and 79% felt a
(18:00):
sense of of emptiness. And that is why when I
think about this wisdom gap, I look at this and say,
this AI moment is definitely a gospel moment, and that
is the profound truth. This is the profound opportunity we have.
This very crisis of human identity represents our greatest opportunity
(18:25):
to advance the Great Commission. Right. And so think about
the wisdom gap as advancing the Great Commission.
S2 (18:34):
Yeah.
S3 (18:35):
So that is positive. That is redemptive.
S2 (18:39):
That's a positive thing. That's super positive. But and let
me just clarify for those who are listening and maybe
just for myself, part of that, what you've just described
in that study is almost the feeling of being, and
a fear that many of us are facing, a fear
of being replaced by this kind of technology. It's already
(19:00):
happening in some places across the country, some workplaces already
replacing people with, uh, mechanical or, or, uh, this type
of AI technology.
S3 (19:12):
That is exactly right. That's one. So there's the economic aspect. Um,
and there's also, I mean, in you and I spend
quite a bit of time on, uh, because I want
to understand to more broadly the cultural temperature, if you will,
when it comes to this sort of, uh, this technology
(19:33):
that is general purpose and intelligence. I really want to
understand how people are processing, seeing this existentially. So I
spent a lot of time on Reddit and discord to
get that cultural temperature. And everywhere in every industry, you
begin to see it not only economically, but existentially. And
(19:54):
so this is where I think you know, that the
church certainly has a role to to step in and
talk about the truth of Jesus. And yes, we can
have a voice to begin to to shift the to
shift the paradigm and shift the narrative about putting redemptive
I first and foremost before these tech companies. And you
(20:14):
know what? Here's the thing. In a lot of these
tech companies like meta and OpenAI and Google, there's a
lot of great Christians that work there, and we can
support them in this, if that makes sense.
S2 (20:29):
Yes. Yeah. And, you know, it seems also at this
moment for the church, and I want to get to
the church here in just a moment. This this moment
is also a time where when people are feeling this,
when they are reporting this and experiencing this, and 92%
are saying this is an issue. This is where the
church can be talking about, uh, the, the value of
(20:53):
the human being, the value of the individual, not because of, uh,
something happening in the world, not because of their circumstances,
not because of technology, but because God created them in
his image.
S3 (21:07):
Yes. Yes. And we could say much, much more about that. Uh,
and there's other questions that we should raise within that,
within that, um, sort of paradigm as well, because, uh,
and I get this, you know, I spent 13 years
working for, um, Johnny and Friends and Joni Erickson Tada,
who was just I can't I can't say enough of
(21:30):
about who she really is and what she, what she represents.
But one of the things I mean, when it comes
to the image of God, you know, it is it
is not about traits. It's about who we are. Because,
you know, people with disabilities especially, you know, a lot
of times their humanity would be called into question because
(21:51):
they might be on the spectrum, or they didn't have
a voice, or they they were in a wheelchair. So
we've dealt with that all the time now. I is
just raising. It's just making more visible, kind of and
pushing the church to really think about, well, what does
it mean to be made in the image of God?
What are we really talking about? And this has everything
(22:11):
to do with stepping into this wisdom gap. And this
is that's what I, this I moment is the gospel moment.
S2 (22:19):
Yeah. For sure. You mentioned Johnny and Friends and I,
in your introduction talked about you helping her ministry with
some things. Is there something you can share with us
about what you did in in putting your resources and
your time and effort into helping Johnny and friends?
S3 (22:38):
Yeah, yeah, so I started I was a professor at
Biola in Talbot for 20 years, and I stayed working
there part time when I went to Johnny and Friends
full time in 2007. And what what me and my
colleague did, Steve Bundy, is we stood up the Christian
Institute on Disability within Johnny and Friends. And so we
(22:59):
developed a curriculum Beyond Suffering, and we had an internship
program and public policy to address a lot of the
issues related to disability ministry in the church and disability
ministry globally. I mean, there's 1 billion people and more, uh,
affected by disability around the world. So that's what we did.
(23:20):
And we educated we equipped the church to be able
to go out and take the gospel to those with disabilities,
much like I'm doing right now. And we're doing that
faith tech to bring the gospel to those who who
work in and through tech. That's and that's the connection.
S2 (23:38):
I love that. Thank you for sharing that because I,
Johnny and friends, good friends of folks in Christian radio
and Johnny. Well loved by by so many. Thank you
for your work there and for sharing what you did there.
We're coming up on a break in just a moment,
but I just kind of on my sheet of paper
here in front of me had drawn a little diagram
(23:58):
of what and how potentially I could impact the church.
I just want to share a couple of thoughts, and
then I'm going to have you comment when we come
back from this break. But as I was writing down here,
several tracks within the church for I, for instance, pastors,
it could help them craft sermons, it could create topics,
or it could be a topic from the pulpit. What
(24:20):
kinds of things should pastors be doing? Congregations. It's a
learning opportunity for congregations. How about missions? I know it's
being used already in Bible translation. What about growth plans
for missions? Could it be used in that way? And theology,
is it trustworthy? You've mentioned a couple of seminaries that
you've been tied to, and one of the questions that
(24:42):
I think we need to touch on is it's great
that it's there. It's collecting all this data. But in
the midst of somebody asking a question, wanting an orthodox
biblical answer, could unorthodox or unbiblical pieces of information be
getting into the answer for the question we ask? Those
are just a couple of the things I'm thinking through.
(25:04):
And when we come back with doctor K in just
a moment, uh, we're going to dig into more about
what the church can and should and is doing with
AI right now, because that really is the big question.
Is this AI moment a gospel moment? I think from
what we've already heard, we can tell it is and
it can be. But what should the church be doing?
(25:26):
Church pastors, church leaders? And how might it affect missions
and mission activity? We're going to talk about that and
more coming up with doctor K in just a moment
right here on equipped with Chris Brooks. (877)Â 548-3675 is our number.
If you have a question or comment, maybe you've had
some interactions with AI you'd like to talk about that,
or maybe a question about it. (877)Â 548-3675. Nothing to be
(25:52):
afraid of, but we do need to make sure we're
using it in the best way possible. (877)Â 548-3675. Back with
doctor K and more. Have equipped with Chris Brooks coming
up in just a moment. Welcome back to equipped with
(26:20):
Chris Brooks I'm Colin Lambert sitting in for Chris today.
Continue to pray for Chris and his family. I know
he would appreciate that. Our topic today is is this
AI moment a gospel moment? Our guest is doctor K,
an AI consultant, theologian, ethicist, thought leader, author her book
Hope's horizon from chatbots to Jesus return. And in the
(26:43):
first half hour of the program, we really were laying
some groundwork, talking about what AI is all about, good
or bad, what kinds of things do we need to
be thinking about as we work with AI? And I
want to move now into what the church should, can,
and is doing with AI right now, just before the break. Uh,
Doctor Kay, I was talking about some of these different
(27:05):
elements of the church the pastors, the congregation, missions, theology departments.
ET cetera. ET cetera. So many different, uh, ways that
I could impact the church. Let me just start with
a basic question. I'm assuming your answer would be yes
to should the church be involved with and utilizing AI? Uh,
(27:26):
what can and should the church be doing right now?
S3 (27:30):
Yeah. That's it. And and that is a long question
and a question. It's an operational question that I think
is critically important. And there's there's theological and discipleship questions
that come along with that. The short answer is, is yes,
and to use it with wisdom and discernment. So some
of my concerns there, they're twofold. When we think about this,
(27:54):
the first is Bible literacy and I literacy. Um, and
so a lot of times, you know, like for instance, um,
you know, in prompting one of these models and, and
then it gets like, oh, tell me about, you know,
say John 316 and its connection to, uh, this other
(28:16):
passage and so forth. One of the things that we
have to do is have when when the output is
and it answers the question, uh, is to be able to,
as President Reagan would always say, well, yeah, you need
to verify and you need to validate that, that those,
those points. Right. Use it, but use it with discernment
(28:37):
And with wisdom and guidance, and that necessitates that we
know something about what Scripture says to begin with. And
we don't rely not only on a chat bot, but
anyone else. Right. So and understanding, like I said before,
I can be a mirror and it can reflect some
of our best and some of our writings. It's trained
on that data, but it also represents a lot of
(28:59):
our fallen human nature as well. And I and in
that sense, it could be instructive as well. I could
speak a little bit more to that, but yes, using
it to help outline and research for sermons, um, missions. Um,
some of our like high impact use cases, as we
call them, with Bible translation and looking at the digital church.
(29:22):
And how can we interact with the digital church and
where places where people can't meet us in person? Uh,
a lot of that is understanding how to use it
with wisdom and also knowing our Bibles well enough to, to,
to be able to have that sort of discernment. And,
you know, that's that's more demanding. It's demanding for us
(29:43):
to have that, um, that sort of Bible literacy so
that we understand interpretations and we can point out and
see where a model might not be correct and be
able to, to to say, oh, no, that's not quite correct.
But this is and so feed this back into your data.
So you Saddam Hussein. So it's iterative and it's a responsibility.
(30:08):
And one of the things I like to talk about
or to mention here too, is we as Christians should
resist the tyranny of convenience. Okay.
S2 (30:18):
Yes.
S3 (30:18):
One of the one of the things that that this
technology allows us is, hey, just put in a prompt,
it can create all our sermons and our Bible, you know,
our Sunday School lessons and so forth, and we can
give in to that tyranny of convenience and not rely
on on the wisdom and guidance and spirit that God
has given us to be able to interact with His Word,
(30:40):
and that's demanding of us, and we have to go.
We have to develop out that counter-narrative, right, and not
give over so much of our autonomy, uh, to AI.
So yes, I'm an AI consultant, and yes, there's a
place for it. But part of redemptive AI framework is,
is having the wisdom and the Bible literacy here to.
S2 (31:01):
Yeah. Phone lines are open. Eight, seven. Yes. Absolutely. 87754836758775483675.
Let's go to the phones. Bob, you're in Chicago. Thanks
for calling. Today your question or comment for doctor K?
S4 (31:18):
Well, it's kind of a question, but it's more of
a comment. Does not A.I., to one degree or another
preclude our dependency upon the Holy Spirit when we have
questions or need God's, uh, and direct input.
S2 (31:37):
Great question.
S3 (31:37):
Question. Yeah. And you know what. And and I would
agree and I so I'm not one. And that gets
to I think what I was just talking about with
Bible literacy wisdom and hearing the hearing the voice of
the Holy Spirit, which we all have as Christians to. But, um,
I think another thing is not putting putting God's Holy
(32:02):
Spirit in a box as well. I think he can
work through all kinds of technology. Um, and, and he
works through, just in general, revelation understanding. He works in,
in the physical world. Um, but that doesn't preclude our, our, um, our,
our discernment. And we certainly don't want to rely just
(32:26):
simply on AI chatbots for any sort of guidance. And that's,
that's that is the tension that we walk. That is
the tension that we have today. And that's why I
would say to not to give in to that tyranny
of convenience. Um, I do think there's ways in which
God can call us to account in ways, um, and
(32:50):
I can go a little bit more into some of
those questions, because I think Bob's question is very poignant
and leads to other issues that we need to think
about as Christians. But, Bob, thank you so much for
that question. I totally, totally resonate with you.
S2 (33:06):
Yeah, Bob, thanks for your call. I actually was going
to ask that question when Bob called, so I wanted
him to, uh, to go ahead and ask it himself.
And I think, you know, the the tyranny of the
urgent or the tyranny of, of convenience can certainly be
a part of this. I know I've used it before
(33:27):
or asked, uh, you know, ChatGPT to give me a,
you know, give me a five minute devotional on this
topic and it it shoots something out and it's pretty decent.
I mean, it's sound, it's biblical. I checked the references.
It all looks good. But then I'm sitting there thinking,
now I did that. It took two seconds and I
didn't pray about it. The Holy Spirit didn't give me
(33:48):
any direction on it. Uh, it's not even tied to
my life, really. It's just kind of something created. I
began to realize. And you talked about this earlier. What
kind of humans are we becoming? That really is part
of answering part of that question. We have become a
community of people who are totally interested in convenience and
(34:11):
something like I. It's so easy for us to use
it in whatever format, whether it's a biblical Christian format,
a church format, or a work format or a school format.
We just want to get the job done and get
it done quick, and I is going to do that
for us. How do we I mean, we've gotta we've
gotta up our self-control a little bit, don't we?
S3 (34:32):
Yes. That's right. And this gets down to and this
really is about practicing the spiritual disciplines and what this is.
This is why, because of this tyranny of convenience. Because
and I would say too, that this I moment is
a gospel moment for this very reason. I think that
that the church is being challenged right now with this
(34:55):
journey of convenience, exactly to the point you just made
about the fact that Chat or Claude or Gemini can
can just with one prompt, give us exactly what we
need and we go about our day. That is not
what discipleship is about. Right. Um, and so that's why
(35:15):
if if you allow me just because this is important
discipleship question and this is something, um, I think about,
for instance, I will ask the question, what's the one
question that every Christian should ask themselves about their I use. Okay.
And these are some of the things that keep me
(35:37):
up at night. As a Christian who served our country
and came back into ministry. And so this is a question, Colin,
I'm going to put this out here, and I'd love
to hear from the audience as well. What is this
one question? Here it is for me. When, when when
has an I response ever made you uncomfortable with your
(36:02):
own question? So we can ask the question and to
what degree do we ever feel uncomfortable about this? And
what I mean by this is that in a lot
of ways, AI is making certain things more transparent about
who we are and the humans we're becoming. It can
(36:23):
reveal our lack of patience. Why else would people prefer
to talk to AI companions that never tire of listening?
It's exposing, I think, some of our, you know, some
of our, um, impatience. Um, and listen to this. AI
does not condemn us for our questions. I think in
(36:46):
some sense, it's showing our inability to truly be present
with other people. And so I believe at the deeper level,
I believe this transparency about human nature is actually God's
gift in some way. If we listen to it. We
can no longer hide behind facades, I think. So the
(37:06):
question is, will we allow this, this as it exposes
maybe our impatience and our driving other people who are
lonely to chatbots. Will this drive us to the wisdom
gap and to the only one who can save us
from this predicament? Right. So when we see our impatience
(37:27):
with these rapid fire questions that we give to to AI,
when we realize that we're using AI to to avoid
difficult conversations, and when we prefer some of these non-judgmental
responses to human accountability. These are the divine appointments, I think,
to lead us back to Jesus. Exactly what you said, Colin.
(37:50):
I just said it a little bit more long winded.
Sorry about that.
S2 (37:54):
No great, great information. I think it's super helpful. We're
going to come back in just a moment with more
of your phone calls. (877)Â 548-3675. A fascinating conversation about artificial intelligence,
what we should and should not be doing, and what
the church can and cannot be doing with AI. Where
does the spirit fit in? Where do we fit in,
(38:17):
and what do we need to learn? How do we
prepare for the next iteration of AI? All of that
coming up with your calls in just a moment. (877)Â 548-3675. Again,
all the information about today's programme, along with the audio
after we finish today will be at equipped Radio.com. Is
this I moment a gospel moment? We believe so. What way?
(38:39):
We'll talk more about it when we come back in
just a moment with doctor K. Stay with us for
more of equipped with Chris Brooks.
S1 (38:57):
In today's rapidly changing culture, Christians need solid biblical guidance
more than ever. That's our mission here at Equip to
provide biblical wisdom for life's toughest questions. When you step
in as an equipper, you're not just giving your monthly
support helps to offer clarity and hope to a confused
and anxious culture, and you'll get exclusive resources and updates
(39:19):
from us all year long. Join our team of monthly
supporters today. Call 888644 4144 or visit Equip radio. Org.
S2 (39:38):
As followers of Christ, we know that daily time in
God's Word matters, but often distractions can make it hard
to stay consistent. Now is a perfect time to refresh
or begin this life giving habit. We would love to
send you a copy of The Quiet Time Kickstart by
Rachel Jones. It's a compact guide that starts small and
(39:59):
helps you build a steady, meaningful rhythm in Scripture, setting
you up for ongoing success. You can request your copy
with a gift of any amount to equipped. You can
call 8644 4144 or go to equipped radio. I'm Colin
Lambert sitting in for Chris today on equipped with Chris Brooks.
(40:20):
Our guest is doctor K, an AI consultant, theologian, ethicist, author,
thought leader, and boy, what a fascinating conversation. Today we're
going to go back to your phone. Uh, phone calls. (877)Â 548-3675. Chris,
you're calling from Nashville, Tennessee today. Your question or comment
for our guest?
S5 (40:41):
Yeah. Um, this is an amazing conversation, and I'm so
glad that you're having it. And to be honest, I'm
I'm shocked that I haven't heard it at church yet. Um,
and that's kind of part of my question. Um, I'm
just wondering, in light of the tyranny of convenience that
(41:01):
you're talking about, which I've never heard about. That's amazing. Uh,
way of thinking about it. Um, what are some healthy
practices as we approach just the, the, uh, kind of
that moment where we have a thought. We have a
question and we go, oh, I could build a prompt
(41:24):
or like what? What what are the healthy ways to
to kind of resist that tyranny of convenience when it
comes to AI. And then also how do we respond, uh,
to those prompts? What's the healthy way, what's the biblical
way to respond to those prompts when we do? Because
(41:45):
I'll be honest, I don't think I filter anything. I just,
you know, it's like when I googled things, I just
Google it and and look and kind of just take
it or. Well, I had a little filtering to do,
but now it's like I get this voice and I
just receive it, um, which is scary. Um, and I
guess maybe the last part of that, the church part
(42:05):
is how do we teach this to our churches? How
do we how do we teach this to our kids? Um,
so yeah, anyway, a bunch of things.
S2 (42:14):
Great questions. Thank you. Chris. Uh, doctor K, give it
a shot.
S3 (42:18):
Oh. Thanks, Chris. I mean, yeah, you had several. Several
parts to your question there, which are all relevant and
salient and and tough ones for us to the last question, uh, first, uh,
and the church, um, and teaching, I think leaning into
biblical literacy, first and foremost, uh, is critically important in
(42:40):
this I age. And then understanding how to, to, uh,
prompt in such a way that we become more challenged, uh, by,
by some of this interaction with these AI systems, which
we simply can't avoid anymore. So those are two, two
parts to it. And also, uh, realizing there are ways
(43:04):
with these models. And this is what I'm saying too.
And I go back to my footstomp here on this
AI moment being a gospel moment that, um, this is right.
I mean, and this is the temptation and this is
the business model too is it's called a persuasive psychology
technology that this is a lot of times we don't
(43:25):
step back and verify and validate some of the outputs,
and that is something we have to do. And we
have to think about this in terms of biblical literacy
and AI literacy as, um, a spiritual discipline. This is
a new spiritual discipline that we must have today. Uh,
and this technology is forcing us to have that. Uh,
(43:48):
and I love and appreciate so many of Chris's, uh,
questions along those lines. And I would encourage that this
process is more demanding. Um, but it is a counter-narrative
to the tyranny of, of convenience to see this as
a spiritual discipline and try to understand and pray about. Lord,
how are you using this today? Uh, and here's the
(44:11):
thing for us, though, to Colin, is like when we
humans See ourselves in some ways reflected in being shaped
by these AI systems, including their biases and limitations and
so forth. And we are confronted with these truths about
ourselves that we can no longer deny. This is where
(44:33):
it is a turn back to God's Word that that
should be an about face, back to God's Word and
back to Jesus, the only one that can save us
from this.
S2 (44:45):
Yeah. Chris, thank you so much for your questions. And, uh,
we don't have time for another call. I do want
to share quickly because, uh, and this is just a
general question about AI. Nancy from Illinois asked the question,
how do you credit AI if you're doing research, it
doesn't always give you where it's getting the answer from.
S3 (45:06):
Yeah. And not I have access to some of the
most capable models, but actually you can prompt them for
their sources. And that's a part of the validation process.
I think that as a more capable models become free
subscription free subscriptions, if you will. You can ask for
those sources and validate them and then and then actually
(45:27):
quote them as well with the sources. You put the
source in there and say, this was from chat and
you validated it.
S2 (45:34):
Yeah. That's helpful. Super helpful. Wow, what a conversation. And again,
as Chris mentioned, just, uh, amazing that we're talking about it.
And boy, an encouragement to each one of us not
to get caught up in the tyranny of convenience. Let's
make sure we are like the Bereans and going back
and checking the scriptures. Let's make sure that our, our,
(45:55):
our spiritual maturity is at the point that we can
see when something is wrong or mistaken, when we print
it out from AI. Let's make sure that our churches
are discipling people in such a way that the their
knowledge of the scriptures is strong enough to be able
to do that. And let's make sure in all of it,
we do it through prayer and engagement with the Word
(46:18):
of God on a regular basis. Doctor Kay. Fascinating. Again,
great to talk to you. Thanks so much. For your information.
We'll direct people to you and your book and other
information at Radio.com. Thank you so much for your time today.
S3 (46:33):
Thank you, I appreciate it.
S2 (46:36):
Yeah, well, something to think about. Maybe you'll keep that
on your mind for the next little while and even
listen to this program again, or share it with others.
If you know some friends who are interested in AI,
maybe you've had some conversations about AI. This program will
be available a little later today. Grab it and send
it out to some friends. Let them take a look
at it as well. So thankful for you being with
(46:57):
us today, and thankful to Chris for allowing me to
sit in this seat. Equipped with Chris Brooks is a
production of Moody Radio, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
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