July 10, 2025 • 47 mins
Why are there so many Protestant denominations in America? From revival fires to reform movements, American Christianity has seen both powerful awakenings and painful splits. On the next Equipped, Dr. Gregg Quiggle will explore the high points—and where we stumbled. Discover how our past still shapes our faith today when you join us on the next Equipped.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:21):
Welcome to equip with Chris Brooks. I'm Roy Patterson sitting
in for Chris. It is the day that the Lord
has made. Come on let's rejoice and let's be glad
in it. I trust you are looking around, looking up,
looking down and seeing that God has been good to you.
He's made ways, he's opened doors. He's been your friend
(00:41):
and the kind of friend that sticks closer than any brother. Hey,
today I'm so excited that we'll have an opportunity to
fellowship to deal with some of the cultural situations in
our world. Our love and our prayers are certainly with
Chris Brooks. He is a family man. He's a scholar.
He's a great teacher, a great preacher. But his focus
on the family is one of the things about him
(01:03):
that I admire. And so as he's walking through this
valley with his family, especially with his daughter, we're praying
for healing. We're praying that God would bless them, lead
them and guide them, and perfect those things that concern them.
All right. Again, I'm so glad that you and I
get to get together today to hang out. I've got
(01:23):
a dear friend with me today. He is a teacher's teacher.
He's a professor's professor. This man loves God. He loves
God's Word. And he has served at the Moody Bible
Institute for over 35 years, has taught grad school and undergrad.
I took him for a class in church history. He's
(01:44):
taught other classes as well. And so, inspired by what
he shared, I said, I've got to have him on. Uh,
he is the guy who was the D.L. Moody Professor
of Historical theology, and he's written books. He's given lectures,
he leads tours. Doctor Greg Quiggle, how are you.
S2 (02:05):
Roy? I'm great. You. You are far too kind, my
good friend.
S1 (02:10):
Oh, my goodness, I'm so excited to have you here today.
and are excited for our audience. I have always loved history.
I've always loved to look back and to see what's happened,
and it's given me wings for what could happen. How
did you get involved in history, especially church history?
S2 (02:30):
You know, a long time ago I went to a
Christian high school and, um, must have been 10th grade. Uh,
we were doing some reading in church history, and I
just got fascinated. I had hadn't heard of these people,
and I started to read about this, and it was
(02:52):
one of those things where it helped me to understand
some things like, oh, that's why we do this. Oh,
that's why this is the way this is. Oh, that's
where this came from. So for me, it was kind
of like a, um, it's kind of like when you're
doing a puzzle and you don't have the box, right? Right.
(03:16):
And all of a sudden somebody gives you the box
and you're like, wow, now this makes sense.
S1 (03:22):
Yeah.
S2 (03:23):
So for me, it kind of it kind of put
a lot of things in focus for me.
S1 (03:29):
Why is church history so important?
S2 (03:33):
Well, I think because, Roy, all of us want to
understand where we came from. Part of understanding who you
are is understanding where you came from. And, um, all
of us are part of a story, and we know
the story as it's contained in the Bible. And obviously,
(03:57):
that is the story. But the story doesn't end with
the history that ends in the New Testament. There's that
continuing work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of
men and women. Post Christ's ascension into heaven. Post the
(04:17):
stories we see in the book of Acts and those
those still shape us. They still are fundamental in causing
us to be the way we are today. And a
lot of the things that we do today are functions
of decisions that those people have made in the past.
(04:39):
And so part of it is just understanding who we are.
S1 (04:42):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey, this is what I loved about
your class. You gave it to us in the raw,
like this happened. This was cool. This was not cool,
but it happened. And so it sounds like it's important
to see history as history as opposed to trying to
manipulate it.
S2 (04:59):
Yeah, well, I used to tell students, you know, the
great thing about the Bible is everybody's goofy except Jesus.
That's kind of the. That's kind of the point, isn't it?
And so.
S1 (05:10):
Right.
S2 (05:11):
I mean, we forget the vast majority of the reason
that the books that we have in the New Testament
were written is because those churches were goofy.
S1 (05:21):
Mhm.
S2 (05:22):
Um, you know, O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you? Yeah. We,
we like to do this thing about how, how great
the early Christian church was. Well, wait a minute, you know. Right.
I don't know about you, but our church doesn't sit
around and say, boy, if we could just be like Corinth.
S1 (05:40):
Hmm.
S2 (05:40):
You know.
S1 (05:41):
Right.
S2 (05:42):
Or maybe if we're lucky, this Sunday, somebody will lie
to the Holy Spirit and get struck dead at the
930 service. Right, right. And then, if we're really lucky,
somebody will lie again to the Holy Spirit and get
struck down at the 11:00. Oh, my. There were huge
problems in the early church, and it was not a cakewalk.
And there were goofy people and, you know, there were
(06:04):
ethnic issues. Why did we have deacons. Well, that was
racial strife. Mm mm. Uh, so. So Peter had all
kinds of problems with Gentiles. Mm. And so we see
these stories and and, um, these remind us about the
(06:26):
grace of God.
S1 (06:27):
Amen.
S2 (06:28):
They remind us about human sinfulness. They remind us that
Jesus is the Savior and we're not. And and they
teach us about God's faithfulness.
S1 (06:41):
All right. Well, let's let's talk about some of your
favorites in, in church history. And eventually we're going to
talk about the American church and the history in this,
in this great land of ours. Uh, but let's let's
go back for, for a little while and talk about
some of your favorites. Um, you know, I know you
love Martin Luther. Um, talk about him and then some
(07:02):
others you love.
S2 (07:04):
Yeah. Well, let let let's do some sort of chronological order, please.
S1 (07:09):
Roy, please.
S2 (07:11):
Um, one of the early guys is a guy named Tertullian.
And Tertullian is an important early father who is, uh,
you'll you'll hear this theme when I talk about all
these guys. When they're right, they're really right. And when
they're wrong, they're really wrong.
S1 (07:32):
Interesting.
S2 (07:33):
Um, he is very, um, zealous for the faith. And
he is a gifted thinker. He he's often, um, given
credit for coining the phrase trinity. He's one of the
key thinkers in Christianity. And but he also, towards the
(07:53):
end of his life, there's some reason to believe he
kind of goes a little bit off the rails and
gets involved in sort of what we would call really
hardcore legalism. Um, because he's concerned about the degree of
sensuality in the church. And he and he overcorrects. But
but there, there is his his genius, his commitment, his steadfastness.
(08:19):
These are all remarkable things about him. Um, and then
you go to Augustine and one guy. It's an overstatement.
But somebody said, oh, all theology post Augustine is merely
a footnote that that's an overstatement. But but here is
a man who is from North Africa. He is. He
(08:42):
lives his life. Um, he was he would be what
we would today call a party animal. He one one
fellow said he went about licking the earth. He he
lived for sensuality. He had a child out of wedlock.
Incredibly brilliant. Um. And his story is a remarkable story
(09:04):
that the Lord was going to get him. And the
Lord pursued him. And it's also the story of a
faithful mother, a mother who literally chased him all over
the world, praying for him, pleading with him. And he
eventually comes to faith. And he is in many ways, um,
(09:27):
foundational to a lot of theology. Uh, both Roman Catholics
and Protestants look to Augustine as being central in defining
a lot of Christian thought. Just a brilliant man. Uh,
understood grace. His his confessions. He's the guy that wrote.
(09:51):
Our hearts are restless till they find rest in thee.
S1 (09:54):
I love that.
S2 (09:54):
Quote. Uh, yeah. It's just a stunning guy. Um, just
just remarkable fellow. And then we skip ahead and we
find a guy like Aquinas. And. And here is a
man who, um. Again, just utterly brilliant and sought to
(10:16):
understand God, uh, gave himself to try to understand as
much of God as he could and put together this
brilliant work called the Summa Theologica, the summation of theology.
And most of us have all kinds of trouble with
(10:37):
reading it, because it's so incredibly precise, and we're just
not that detailed in our thinking. Um, just a remarkable guy.
I don't agree with him in a lot of things,
but just his his profound commitment to know the Lord,
(10:58):
to know the Lord, to know the Lord and just
that commitment to that. Uh, so so those are those
are two of the earlier guys I, you know, we
can move on to, to Luther if you want to
talk about him after the break.
S1 (11:14):
Yeah. Let's come back to Luther right after the break.
We're talking to Doctor Greg Quigley today. Talking church history.
I know you love history like I do. Here's a
number to call (877)Â 548-3675. If you have a question for
Greg Quigley, uh, that number is (877)Â 548-3675. I'm Roy Patterson.
(11:36):
Thank you so much for hanging out with me. You're
listening to equipped.
S3 (11:50):
The enemy loves to take our sexual struggles and build
strongholds that separate us from God. We start believing lies
like we can't go to church anymore or that God
couldn't possibly love us. Surrender Sexuality by Julie Slattery breaks
down those barriers and shows you the path to freedom
without shame and into the welcoming arms of Jesus. We'll
(12:14):
send you a copy with our thanks when you support
equipped this month. Simply call 888644 4144 or visit Equip radio.org.
S1 (12:32):
Welcome back to equipped. I'm Roy Patterson sitting in for
Chris Brooks. I love the fact that you're tuned in.
I love the fact that you pray, you seek God
and you want to be the best version of yourself
as you exalt Christ. And nobody's perfect. Nobody has arrived yet.
We're still walking in in this world. We're still growing
(12:52):
in Christ. And as we talk to Doctor Greg Quiggle today,
we find some history that can hopefully inspire us to say,
if they can make it, we can make it. If
they were flawed and we're flawed, hopefully together we can
move forward in Jesus name. Hey Greg, you were talking
about tremendous people in church history. You're about to talk
about Martin Luther. Give us your insights.
S2 (13:16):
Yeah. Luther is again another illustration of when he's right.
He's really right. And when he's wrong, he's really wrong.
S1 (13:25):
Gotcha, gotcha.
S2 (13:27):
Luther's understanding of justification is absolutely, utterly extraordinary. Uh, he
he gets the gospel. He understands what it means to
be saved by faith alone, by grace alone in Christ alone.
He gets it. And his ability to state it is electric.
(13:48):
It is stunning. Um. And he understands sin. He really
Understand sin, and he takes sin seriously in ways that, frankly,
most of us don't. And it's stunning. Um, but he
he's what he said about about Jewish people is simply, uh.
(14:11):
It's wrong.
S1 (14:12):
Yeah.
S2 (14:13):
He's just absolutely, utterly wrong. It's indefensible. And and, um,
there's just it's indefensible.
S1 (14:23):
Okay.
S2 (14:24):
Okay. And he was he was absolutely, utterly wrong. And again,
here we see here's a guy who, on the one
hand gets it, on the other hand has this huge
blind spot, um, and, you know, the other one another
guys that I absolutely, utterly love is Dwight Moody. Yeah.
And Mr. Moody was remarkable. Here's a guy who came
(14:47):
from nothing. Um, a guy who loved Jesus and served
the Lord to the best of his ability. Incredible humility.
Never wanted anything named after himself. He. He would go.
He would be absolutely appalled to war on Moody radio.
S1 (15:07):
Moody radio.
S2 (15:10):
He, uh, his brand was Jesus.
S1 (15:14):
Yes, sir.
S2 (15:15):
He wanted it about Jesus. Um. And just an incredibly
remarkable guy. But he made mistakes, too.
S1 (15:24):
Sure.
S2 (15:25):
And, uh, what what he did with what he had is,
is absolutely stunning. In fact, just the name that people
are probably more familiar with or the ministry they're more
familiar with is Billy Graham and Billy Graham, uh, deliberately
(15:47):
copied Mr. Moody. Mr. Moody was his model. I found
a letter when I was digging around in Mr. Moody's
stuff that Billy Graham wrote to Mr. Moody's daughter and said,
I don't know if you have any idea the kind
of impact that your father's ministry has had around the world.
It was just, just absolutely, utterly stunning. So off the
(16:10):
off the top of my head, those those are just
4 or 5 names.
S1 (16:15):
So it seems like we have a real monolithic mindset.
Either someone is good or they're bad. They're moving forward
or they're pulling us backwards. Uh, I love the fact
that you see people in 3D. You see people as
they are, how God has used them and inspires us
(16:38):
to be used by God to. All right. So we've
talked a little bit about the early church. I got
to do one more thing. Okay. Okay. Let me backtrack
a little bit. Nicene Creed. Uh, talk about that.
S2 (16:51):
Well, Nicene Creed, uh, comes out of the the, um,
early church history when Christianity becomes legalized. Yeah. There is
an emperor. The emperor's name is Constantine. Now, most people
are more familiar with his half brother Ovaltine. Who invented
(17:12):
the malted milk drink? Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah,
it's a dad joke.
S1 (17:17):
It is a dad joke. And you know what? It's
not a bad one. It's not.
S2 (17:21):
Okay, well. Thank you. Roy? Yeah. Uh. Uh, so Constantine
converts in 300, around 300. He, um, wants the empire
to be Christian. And one of the things he finds
out is there's a debate among the Christians whether or
not Jesus is God. Well, we. You know, what do you.
(17:43):
What are we doing here? We can't have a we
gotta know who the head of the religion is. And
so there, there is a meeting among bishops in the
city of Nicaea, and I'll do this as short as possible.
The essence of the argument is this If Jesus is
(18:03):
not God, he cannot save anybody.
S1 (18:08):
Um.
S2 (18:10):
I'll say that again. If Jesus is not God, he
cannot save anybody. And anytime you talk about Jesus and
you make him less God than the Father is God,
you are by definition destroying the Christian doctrine of salvation. Wow.
Christians teach that you are saved by faith in Jesus Christ,
(18:35):
and if he is not God, he cannot solve the
problem because the problem is sin and death, and only
God can defeat sin and death. and you might as
well put your trust in me.
S4 (18:54):
Hmm? Hmm?
S2 (18:56):
No creature. No creature. No creature can defeat sin and death.
But Jesus can. And he can because he's fully God.
And if he isn't God, we're without hope. That's the
(19:16):
essence of Nicaea. When we say Jesus is God, we
mean He is God in the same sense that we
mean the Father is God.
S4 (19:29):
Mm.
S2 (19:30):
That's the essence of Nicaea. Now, it's a very technical argument, but.
But Jesus is the same kind of being that the
father is. You cannot make the father more God than Jesus,
or Jesus cannot save us.
S4 (19:48):
Mhm.
S1 (19:50):
Yeah I like these theological theological waters that we're swimming
in right now. This is, this is some really good stuff.
And I'm blessed by it because I live in a world.
You live in a world. Greg. Greg. Quiggle. That that says, uh,
my truth is my truth. Your truth is your truth.
Let's just be comfortable. I mean, there's surely there's more
(20:10):
than one way to God. Surely there's more than one
form of salvation. Don't be so narrow minded. What do
you say to that?
S2 (20:19):
Well, look, uh, everybody's going to die.
S1 (20:23):
Yeah.
S2 (20:26):
And there's something deeply, fundamentally wrong with all of us.
And if if we could fix it, we would. If
humans could fix it, we would have fixed it by now.
But we can't. So. Who can fix this. And the
(20:48):
essence of the Christian message is that the problem that
we face can only be solved by God. And God
actually entered human history in the person of Jesus Christ.
And because of that, Jesus is capable of doing what
(21:10):
no one else can do. Buddha cannot do it. Muhammad
cannot do it. No one can do it. Only God
can save. There is no other name given among men
whereby ye must be saved. It's not a matter of
(21:31):
being narrow, it's a matter of being honest. I am
going to die. You are going to die. Every person
that hears this broadcast is going to die.
S4 (21:44):
Mm.
S2 (21:46):
And there is only one type of person that can
beat that. And that's God. And Jesus the Son of
God said, I'm the way, I'm the truth, and I'm
the life, and I will give you eternal life. I
(22:08):
can beat this. I did beat this. I rose from
the dead. Jesus lives and so shall I. That's the
Christian promise. Those who give themselves and faith to him
do not need to fear death. It will. It has
been defeated, and it will be defeated, and we will
(22:29):
reign with him. That's the essence of the Christian message.
S1 (22:34):
It's powerful and necessary. We've got to hear that. We've
got to stand on that. Absolutely. Hey, I've got a
couple of minutes before we have to take a hard
break at the bottom of the hour. Let's talk about
American Christianity. How did it get started and and who
was involved in it?
S2 (22:52):
Sure. Well, American Christianity was imported from Europe. Europeans brought
it over when they came over in various, um, at
various points in time, they brought their Christianity with them.
And so they brought the various types of Christianity, depending
(23:15):
on where they came from in Europe. So some of
them would have brought various brands of English Christianity, others
would have brought various brands of Christianity from the continent.
So you would have had all those state churches or
established churches from the European continents, that would have been
(23:39):
brought over by European colonialists when they came over and
they would have brought their religion with them, and that
that's how the story starts. Now, what makes America different
is America decided to do something that no other Western
(24:01):
country had ever tried. They said, we're not going to
have a state church. We are not going to have
an established religion. We're going to let people decide for themselves. Whoa,
(24:24):
that's a wild idea.
S1 (24:27):
How about.
S2 (24:27):
It? Nobody in Europe had ever tried that. And so
that's going to create a whole different dynamic about how
religion is going to function in the United States, and
we can spend a good amount of time sort of
(24:47):
diving into that. If we're up against a break here,
we can we can spend some time going into that
or we can start doing that now, if you'd like. Roy,
it's up to you.
S1 (24:56):
Hey, I got about 30s before I have to hit
the break. Um, take that time, please.
S2 (25:01):
Okay. If the state is staying out of the religion business,
then the question is who controls what happens in terms
of religion? And the answer is the people do. So
(25:25):
you can practice anything you want by way of religion
in this country. And we'll talk about that more after
the break.
S1 (25:33):
Sounds good. We're talking with Doctor Greg Quickel. Uh, I
think he's a genius when it comes to church history.
So much to say. So much inspiration. Love for you
to give us a call. The number is 87754836758775483675. I
think we have to know history or we're doomed to
(25:56):
repeat it. I'm Roy Patterson sitting in for Chris Brooks.
You keep it locked right where it is. This is equipped.
Welcome back to equipped with Chris Brooks I'm Roy Patterson.
(26:18):
Thanks so much for hanging out with me. You know,
there is a devil out there that hates you. And
he hates me. He loves to take our sexual struggles
and build strongholds. That separates us from God. We start
believing that we can't go to church anymore or fellowship
with the saints anymore. We're locked down. We're isolated because
(26:41):
we're so ashamed. Well Surrendered Sexuality by Julie Slattery breaks
down those barriers and shows you the path to freedom
without shame and into the welcoming arms of our loving
Lord Jesus Christ. We'll send you a copy with our
thanks when you support equipped this month. Call 888644 4144.
(27:04):
That's 888644 4144. Or you can visit equipped radio.org. I
hope you'll do that today. Thanks in advance for your support.
All right, Greg, let's get back into this church history thing.
So the people come to America and they're excited. It's
not going to be a state church. And then what happens?
S2 (27:29):
Well, then then, uh, then it's, uh. I'll use an
old expression. Katie, bar the door. That means that means
there are no rules.
S1 (27:39):
Ah.
S2 (27:40):
And the rule? The only rule is the only limiting
factor is your ability to get people to follow you.
So what that means is American religion is incredibly vibrant.
It's very popular. It's driven by the masses. It tends
(28:06):
to be very simple. I didn't say simplistic. There's a difference.
Simple because it has to be driven by the common man. So, Roy,
if you and I tomorrow want to start a church,
who's going to stop us?
S4 (28:22):
Hmm hmm.
S1 (28:23):
Nobody.
S2 (28:24):
Nobody. Right? Nobody. Right? Right. So tomorrow we can, if
you and I tomorrow say we want to start the
Church of Abracadabra, we can go and we can file
some paperwork with the state of Illinois and the federal government.
We get tax exempt number. And the only thing that's
(28:44):
going to limit us is our capacity to get people
to come and give us money.
S4 (28:51):
Right, right.
S2 (28:54):
And so what that does is that's going to create
incredible diversity. So what we have is free enterprise of religion.
So religion Christianity in America functions the same way business does.
(29:20):
So if you want to start a grocery store. Who's
stopping you?
S1 (29:28):
Interesting.
S2 (29:30):
Nobody. The only thing that. The only thing that's limiting
you is your capacity to make the business work, right?
S4 (29:38):
Yes.
S2 (29:38):
And so it's the same sort of thing. Now, what
that means is again, the upside to this is American.
American Christianity is going to be very practical. It's going
to be very vibrant. It's going to be very simple.
But sometimes it's also going to be nutty.
S4 (30:01):
Mhm. Wow.
S1 (30:03):
Wow.
S2 (30:03):
And because there are no rules right.
S4 (30:06):
Mm. Mm.
S2 (30:08):
So you can create anything you want if you and
I want to start the church of Abracadabra and we
want to say, well you know we, we have, we
were walking down the street and God told us that
if you rub your forehead sideways on Thursday afternoon and
(30:29):
say abracadabra, uh, you will see a vision of Jesus.
And I have a special version of the Bible that
when you read it on Wednesday and you do this
on Thursday, and if you send me $400, you will
get a special blessing in the mail.
S4 (30:49):
Mhm. Mhm.
S2 (30:52):
Is anyone going to be able to stop that.
S4 (30:55):
No.
S2 (30:56):
No. And we see this. Right.
S1 (30:58):
Right.
S2 (30:59):
I mean and so so this this is both the
blessing and the curse. Curse of American religion. So you
know one of the questions is why are there so
many different kinds of churches in America? Why not? Why
are there so many different kinds of ketchup when you
go to the grocery store?
S4 (31:18):
Sure.
S1 (31:19):
Sure.
S2 (31:20):
It's the same principle. Right?
S4 (31:22):
Right.
S2 (31:22):
As as long as you get somebody to buy it,
somebody can make another brand of ketchup. As long as
you can make somebody to buy it. Somebody can make
another brand of mustard. As long as you get somebody
to buy it, somebody can make another kind of church.
So if you are a very. Charismatic, popular, colorful person
(31:52):
who is able to move people.
S4 (31:59):
Um.
S2 (32:00):
It's very likely. You can build a church.
S4 (32:06):
Yeah.
S2 (32:07):
And, and we see some of this. And so we see,
you know, the downside of this is people get into
Christianity because frankly, there's money in it.
S4 (32:18):
Mhm. Mm.
S2 (32:20):
And there was a movie I think it was in
the 1950s. You and I are probably old enough to
remember this. It was called Elmer Gantry. Remember that.
S4 (32:28):
With.
S2 (32:28):
Burt Lancaster.
S4 (32:29):
Caster?
S2 (32:29):
Yeah, where he's a traveling evangelist who is a womanizer
and all, and he's just a charlatan, and he just
goes around and he's making money, big money. And we
know this, Roy. We see it generation after generation after generation.
There's another man or woman that's figured out they're really
(32:51):
not committed to Jesus at all. This is a money
making scheme. And who controls it? Who can stop this?
And the answer is nobody. That's the downside to having
free enterprise in religion. So there's no control. There's no restraints.
(33:14):
There's no there's no limits. You can make up stuff.
And and America has created some really crazy kinds of stuff.
S4 (33:25):
Mhm.
S2 (33:26):
Um, There's lots of. Really. There was a group that started,
you know, that they were called the Millerites, that he
was convinced that Jesus was returning to upstate New York
in 1844. Well, that didn't work out very well. They
(33:46):
all went to upstate New York in 1844, and he
didn't return. They called it the Great Disappointment. Right. Ah,
it was 1845. So then that didn't work out either. Well,
you know. So and then there was something called the
Oneida colonies. They practiced communal everything, including they called it
(34:09):
complex marriage. Everybody was married to everybody.
S4 (34:12):
Oh, my.
S2 (34:13):
Yeah. And again, who's stopping this stuff?
S4 (34:16):
Mm.
S2 (34:17):
So you get all this kind of stuff. Experimentation. Free enterprise. Uh,
and that's why there are so many different kinds. That's
why in America, the non-denominational is so that that is
(34:38):
so incredibly popular. It's a church start started by somebody
that answers to nobody but that congregation.
S1 (34:46):
So on one hand, it's it's freedom, but it can
lead to something that is certainly unbiblical. All right. So
I want to ask you about Jonathan Edwards. And, you know,
Finney and and all of those all of those guys,
you got some favorites in American Christianity.
S2 (35:05):
Yes. And, and, uh, I love Jonathan Edwards. Jonathan Edwards
did things that were awful, too. He owned a slave.
S1 (35:14):
I remember, and not firsthand, I don't remember just so
people don't think I'm that old, but, uh, go ahead.
S2 (35:23):
And you say how And, um, I don't know. But
I know this. If if the Lord tarries 100 years,
people will look at us and say, how did they
do that?
S4 (35:35):
Yeah.
S2 (35:36):
Um, because people have blind spots. Edwards, uh, understanding of
the sovereignty of God, his conception of what constitutes true religion,
what a real revival was. Editor Edwards. Edwards understood when
(35:58):
revivals happen, not only is God the Holy Spirit working,
but so is the devil.
S4 (36:05):
Hmm.
S2 (36:07):
And so ever revival, there's three things happening. God is working,
the devil is working. And people are also engaging in self-deception.
S4 (36:17):
Hmm.
S2 (36:18):
And so he's the guy that said we need discernment.
And he wrote an incredibly important book called Treatise on
Religious Infection. Infections, affections. It's a very, very, very dense book.
But you can get, in essence, what he says this
(36:38):
if it's a real revival, it'll stick, it'll last.
S4 (36:42):
I'll tell you.
S2 (36:43):
A story after the break to explain that.
S1 (36:45):
I can't wait to hear about it. I'm fascinated by
the move of God through the people of God, and
how God has used this country to get the gospel
out to not only the rest of our country, but
to the world. I want you guys to keep it
locked right where it is. I'm Roy Patterson, sitting in
for Chris Brooks. Doctor Greg Quiggle is our guest. Love
(37:08):
for you to give him a call. We'll be back
right after this. On equipped.
S3 (37:17):
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(37:39):
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S1 (37:56):
Welcome back to equipped with Chris Brooks I'm Roy Patterson.
Thank you so much for hanging out with me. Excited
about this program today I love history, I really do
American history. Uh, World War two history history history, history.
And to talk about church history. What God has done
(38:18):
something in this world and it's phenomenal. And it's amazing
that he uses people, ordinary people like you and like me,
to impact this culture. Doctor Greg Quiggle is with us. Hey,
before you tell us that story concerning Jonathan Edwards, uh,
let's go to Mark on line one. Mark, please go
(38:40):
ahead with your question. You got to keep it brief
because I've only got a little bit of time left.
Go ahead. Mark.
S5 (38:46):
Well, I think anti-Semitism is tragic and deplorable, but I'm
wondering if Luther honestly misread a phrase. In John. When
John talks about the Jews, he doesn't mean all Jews.
He means the Jewish authorities. And it was. It's just
like the way young people in the 60s used the
(39:08):
phrase the establishment. They didn't mean their favorite youth pastor
or their favorite school teacher. They meant the people who
were running the systems of that day. And so I
wonder if I'm right that Luther misunderstood that phrase in
John the Jews.
S1 (39:24):
Thanks, Mark. Appreciate the question. Go ahead doc.
S2 (39:27):
Yeah. Um, Luther's problem with Luther's problem with the Jews
was less racial than it was theological. So I don't
think it was a biblical thing. What what Luther was
arguing was that the Jewish people of his day were
(39:48):
pushing what he believed constituted a, a, a works justification.
And he saw that as being wrong, and therefore he
saw them as being on the side of Satan. I mean,
so I don't think he got it from a reading
of a biblical text in that sense. I think he
(40:08):
got it from his understanding of the text and, um,
without getting too much further into it in order to
save time, I think we'll just. We'll just have to
have to leave it there. If a Jewish person converted
to Christianity, he fully accepted them as a brother and
sister in Christ. So it wasn't necessarily a racial thing.
(40:31):
It was about their understanding of how a person was
justified by works. Although that's even that's a simplification. But
let's just leave it there for now.
S1 (40:44):
Sounds good. Hey Mark, thanks so much for calling in.
Let's go to Nancy from Homewood on line two. Nancy,
please go ahead with your question.
S6 (40:52):
Yes. I would like to know what is the meaning
of lent and the putting the ashes on the head?
I don't, uh, can't understand that.
S2 (41:03):
Yeah, that's a very good question. And I'm probably not
a very good guy to answer it, given that I
was raised a Baptist. Um, the the idea is, um,
that you are in entering into the period of mourning, um,
(41:23):
leading up to the crucifixion of Christ. And so you
are you are recreating in your own life and entering
into that experience whereby Christ is making payment for your sin.
And so you're doing that by giving up something, by
(41:45):
going by by experiencing a kind of suffering yourself to
give you just a just a smidgeon of understanding what
your salvation cost. Christ.
S4 (41:57):
Mm.
S1 (41:58):
Interesting. All right. Hey, here's the number to call if
you want to talk to Doctor Greg Quiggle. It is 87754836758775483675.
So glad that Jesus paid it all. All to him
I owe. hey, you got a story about Jonathan Edwards?
(42:18):
Please go ahead.
S2 (42:19):
Yeah, well, I'm going to illustrate Edwards point. There was
a revival. I don't know, 30 years or so ago
on campus at Wheaton College. I happened to live in Wheaton.
I was over there, and I was talking to a
guy walking across campus, and he said, you know, I
see you guys are having a service or something. He said, yeah,
(42:40):
we're having hoopla. I went, what? What do you mean
you're having hoopla?
S4 (42:44):
Revival.
S2 (42:45):
And he said, he said, we won't know for 20
years whether or not this is real.
S4 (42:52):
Hmm.
S2 (42:54):
And what he meant by that is precisely what Edwards
was saying. If it's real, it'll stick. Real revival is
not something that lasts a weekend. Real revival is something
that produces a life long change.
S1 (43:13):
Interesting.
S2 (43:15):
And so that that is I think what Edwards is about,
real revival is a fundamental change of the being. While
it may have massive impact in the moment, true Christianity
is a fundamental change of the being that leads to
a fundamental change of life, not just a a burst
(43:39):
of activity for a weekend.
S4 (43:41):
Hmm.
S1 (43:42):
It's interesting because there are folks who've experienced religious fervor and, um,
eventually that died down. But the revivals that have fascinated
me have not only touched the church, but people have
stopped drinking bars have shut down houses of prostitution, cease
(44:02):
to exist. It really impacted the culture. Uh, that particular area.
Isn't that right?
S2 (44:10):
Yes. And so, I mean, in our own day. Look
what happened after nine over 11. There's that spurt of
religious activity in New York City, right? So the question is,
did any of it stick?
S4 (44:29):
Hmm.
S2 (44:30):
And that those are the questions that Edwards wants us
to ask because he says if it's a real act
of God, it sticks.
S1 (44:42):
And it's powerful. Go ahead please.
S2 (44:44):
Yeah. And I think I think that is I think
when you read the New Testament, that's true. Um, you know,
when Jesus calls the 1211 of them stick. Now, they,
you know, they trip and fall. And what? But 11
(45:06):
of them stick.
S4 (45:07):
Hmm hmm.
S2 (45:09):
And and and so I think that to judge, to make,
to come to conclusions about revival solely in the moment
is to miss the purpose of a revival. The purpose
of revival is not just to have fervor in the moment.
(45:29):
The purpose of the revival is to be converted, to
be transformed, not just to be momentarily turbocharged.
S1 (45:44):
What I've seen in church history, and again, I've taken
you as as my prof. So that's my disclaimer, is
that there can be such a powerful move of God,
but there's bound to be persecution. I've only got a
minute left. Give me a quick comment on that.
S2 (46:03):
That is true. And sometimes persecution is purifying. Sometimes persecution
is destructive. There was a church of 300,000 in Japan.
At one point. It was. It was crucified into extinction
by the shoguns.
S4 (46:22):
Hmm.
S2 (46:24):
So? So persecution often follows, uh, powerful movements of God.
S1 (46:31):
I got 30s left. If people want to reach out
to you, how can they do it?
S7 (46:36):
Oh, boy. That's a good question.
S2 (46:39):
Uh, you can reach me at my email. Ranch 812
at Hotmail.com. Ranch 812@hotmail.com.
S1 (46:48):
Great wonderful, wonderful. Teacher, preacher. Tour leader. Reach out to them.
Would you please do that? And Roy Patterson, you're listening
to equip with Chris Brooks. This is a production of
the Moody Radio Network under the umbrella of the Moody
Bible Institute. Until next time, walk in Grace and peace.
Welcome to equip with Chris Brooks. I'm Roy Patterson sitting
in for Chris. It is the day that the Lord
has made. Come on let's rejoice and let's be glad
in it. I trust you are looking around, looking up,
looking down and seeing that God has been good to you.
He's made ways, he's opened doors. He's been your friend
(00:41):
and the kind of friend that sticks closer than any brother. Hey,
today I'm so excited that we'll have an opportunity to
fellowship to deal with some of the cultural situations in
our world. Our love and our prayers are certainly with
Chris Brooks. He is a family man. He's a scholar.
He's a great teacher, a great preacher. But his focus
on the family is one of the things about him
(01:03):
that I admire. And so as he's walking through this
valley with his family, especially with his daughter, we're praying
for healing. We're praying that God would bless them, lead
them and guide them, and perfect those things that concern them.
All right. Again, I'm so glad that you and I
get to get together today to hang out. I've got
(01:23):
a dear friend with me today. He is a teacher's teacher.
He's a professor's professor. This man loves God. He loves
God's Word. And he has served at the Moody Bible
Institute for over 35 years, has taught grad school and undergrad.
I took him for a class in church history. He's
(01:44):
taught other classes as well. And so, inspired by what
he shared, I said, I've got to have him on. Uh,
he is the guy who was the D.L. Moody Professor
of Historical theology, and he's written books. He's given lectures,
he leads tours. Doctor Greg Quiggle, how are you.
S2 (02:05):
Roy? I'm great. You. You are far too kind, my
good friend.
S1 (02:10):
Oh, my goodness, I'm so excited to have you here today.
and are excited for our audience. I have always loved history.
I've always loved to look back and to see what's happened,
and it's given me wings for what could happen. How
did you get involved in history, especially church history?
S2 (02:30):
You know, a long time ago I went to a
Christian high school and, um, must have been 10th grade. Uh,
we were doing some reading in church history, and I
just got fascinated. I had hadn't heard of these people,
and I started to read about this, and it was
(02:52):
one of those things where it helped me to understand
some things like, oh, that's why we do this. Oh,
that's why this is the way this is. Oh, that's
where this came from. So for me, it was kind
of like a, um, it's kind of like when you're
doing a puzzle and you don't have the box, right? Right.
(03:16):
And all of a sudden somebody gives you the box
and you're like, wow, now this makes sense.
S1 (03:22):
Yeah.
S2 (03:23):
So for me, it kind of it kind of put
a lot of things in focus for me.
S1 (03:29):
Why is church history so important?
S2 (03:33):
Well, I think because, Roy, all of us want to
understand where we came from. Part of understanding who you
are is understanding where you came from. And, um, all
of us are part of a story, and we know
the story as it's contained in the Bible. And obviously,
(03:57):
that is the story. But the story doesn't end with
the history that ends in the New Testament. There's that
continuing work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of
men and women. Post Christ's ascension into heaven. Post the
(04:17):
stories we see in the book of Acts and those
those still shape us. They still are fundamental in causing
us to be the way we are today. And a
lot of the things that we do today are functions
of decisions that those people have made in the past.
(04:39):
And so part of it is just understanding who we are.
S1 (04:42):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey, this is what I loved about
your class. You gave it to us in the raw,
like this happened. This was cool. This was not cool,
but it happened. And so it sounds like it's important
to see history as history as opposed to trying to
manipulate it.
S2 (04:59):
Yeah, well, I used to tell students, you know, the
great thing about the Bible is everybody's goofy except Jesus.
That's kind of the. That's kind of the point, isn't it?
And so.
S1 (05:10):
Right.
S2 (05:11):
I mean, we forget the vast majority of the reason
that the books that we have in the New Testament
were written is because those churches were goofy.
S1 (05:21):
Mhm.
S2 (05:22):
Um, you know, O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you? Yeah. We,
we like to do this thing about how, how great
the early Christian church was. Well, wait a minute, you know. Right.
I don't know about you, but our church doesn't sit
around and say, boy, if we could just be like Corinth.
S1 (05:40):
Hmm.
S2 (05:40):
You know.
S1 (05:41):
Right.
S2 (05:42):
Or maybe if we're lucky, this Sunday, somebody will lie
to the Holy Spirit and get struck dead at the
930 service. Right, right. And then, if we're really lucky,
somebody will lie again to the Holy Spirit and get
struck down at the 11:00. Oh, my. There were huge
problems in the early church, and it was not a cakewalk.
And there were goofy people and, you know, there were
(06:04):
ethnic issues. Why did we have deacons. Well, that was
racial strife. Mm mm. Uh, so. So Peter had all
kinds of problems with Gentiles. Mm. And so we see
these stories and and, um, these remind us about the
(06:26):
grace of God.
S1 (06:27):
Amen.
S2 (06:28):
They remind us about human sinfulness. They remind us that
Jesus is the Savior and we're not. And and they
teach us about God's faithfulness.
S1 (06:41):
All right. Well, let's let's talk about some of your
favorites in, in church history. And eventually we're going to
talk about the American church and the history in this,
in this great land of ours. Uh, but let's let's
go back for, for a little while and talk about
some of your favorites. Um, you know, I know you
love Martin Luther. Um, talk about him and then some
(07:02):
others you love.
S2 (07:04):
Yeah. Well, let let let's do some sort of chronological order, please.
S1 (07:09):
Roy, please.
S2 (07:11):
Um, one of the early guys is a guy named Tertullian.
And Tertullian is an important early father who is, uh,
you'll you'll hear this theme when I talk about all
these guys. When they're right, they're really right. And when
they're wrong, they're really wrong.
S1 (07:32):
Interesting.
S2 (07:33):
Um, he is very, um, zealous for the faith. And
he is a gifted thinker. He he's often, um, given
credit for coining the phrase trinity. He's one of the
key thinkers in Christianity. And but he also, towards the
(07:53):
end of his life, there's some reason to believe he
kind of goes a little bit off the rails and
gets involved in sort of what we would call really
hardcore legalism. Um, because he's concerned about the degree of
sensuality in the church. And he and he overcorrects. But
but there, there is his his genius, his commitment, his steadfastness.
(08:19):
These are all remarkable things about him. Um, and then
you go to Augustine and one guy. It's an overstatement.
But somebody said, oh, all theology post Augustine is merely
a footnote that that's an overstatement. But but here is
a man who is from North Africa. He is. He
(08:42):
lives his life. Um, he was he would be what
we would today call a party animal. He one one
fellow said he went about licking the earth. He he
lived for sensuality. He had a child out of wedlock.
Incredibly brilliant. Um. And his story is a remarkable story
(09:04):
that the Lord was going to get him. And the
Lord pursued him. And it's also the story of a
faithful mother, a mother who literally chased him all over
the world, praying for him, pleading with him. And he
eventually comes to faith. And he is in many ways, um,
(09:27):
foundational to a lot of theology. Uh, both Roman Catholics
and Protestants look to Augustine as being central in defining
a lot of Christian thought. Just a brilliant man. Uh,
understood grace. His his confessions. He's the guy that wrote.
(09:51):
Our hearts are restless till they find rest in thee.
S1 (09:54):
I love that.
S2 (09:54):
Quote. Uh, yeah. It's just a stunning guy. Um, just
just remarkable fellow. And then we skip ahead and we
find a guy like Aquinas. And. And here is a
man who, um. Again, just utterly brilliant and sought to
(10:16):
understand God, uh, gave himself to try to understand as
much of God as he could and put together this
brilliant work called the Summa Theologica, the summation of theology.
And most of us have all kinds of trouble with
(10:37):
reading it, because it's so incredibly precise, and we're just
not that detailed in our thinking. Um, just a remarkable guy.
I don't agree with him in a lot of things,
but just his his profound commitment to know the Lord,
(10:58):
to know the Lord, to know the Lord and just
that commitment to that. Uh, so so those are those
are two of the earlier guys I, you know, we
can move on to, to Luther if you want to
talk about him after the break.
S1 (11:14):
Yeah. Let's come back to Luther right after the break.
We're talking to Doctor Greg Quigley today. Talking church history.
I know you love history like I do. Here's a
number to call (877)Â 548-3675. If you have a question for
Greg Quigley, uh, that number is (877)Â 548-3675. I'm Roy Patterson.
(11:36):
Thank you so much for hanging out with me. You're
listening to equipped.
S3 (11:50):
The enemy loves to take our sexual struggles and build
strongholds that separate us from God. We start believing lies
like we can't go to church anymore or that God
couldn't possibly love us. Surrender Sexuality by Julie Slattery breaks
down those barriers and shows you the path to freedom
without shame and into the welcoming arms of Jesus. We'll
(12:14):
send you a copy with our thanks when you support
equipped this month. Simply call 888644 4144 or visit Equip radio.org.
S1 (12:32):
Welcome back to equipped. I'm Roy Patterson sitting in for
Chris Brooks. I love the fact that you're tuned in.
I love the fact that you pray, you seek God
and you want to be the best version of yourself
as you exalt Christ. And nobody's perfect. Nobody has arrived yet.
We're still walking in in this world. We're still growing
(12:52):
in Christ. And as we talk to Doctor Greg Quiggle today,
we find some history that can hopefully inspire us to say,
if they can make it, we can make it. If
they were flawed and we're flawed, hopefully together we can
move forward in Jesus name. Hey Greg, you were talking
about tremendous people in church history. You're about to talk
about Martin Luther. Give us your insights.
S2 (13:16):
Yeah. Luther is again another illustration of when he's right.
He's really right. And when he's wrong, he's really wrong.
S1 (13:25):
Gotcha, gotcha.
S2 (13:27):
Luther's understanding of justification is absolutely, utterly extraordinary. Uh, he
he gets the gospel. He understands what it means to
be saved by faith alone, by grace alone in Christ alone.
He gets it. And his ability to state it is electric.
(13:48):
It is stunning. Um. And he understands sin. He really
Understand sin, and he takes sin seriously in ways that, frankly,
most of us don't. And it's stunning. Um, but he
he's what he said about about Jewish people is simply, uh.
(14:11):
It's wrong.
S1 (14:12):
Yeah.
S2 (14:13):
He's just absolutely, utterly wrong. It's indefensible. And and, um,
there's just it's indefensible.
S1 (14:23):
Okay.
S2 (14:24):
Okay. And he was he was absolutely, utterly wrong. And again,
here we see here's a guy who, on the one
hand gets it, on the other hand has this huge
blind spot, um, and, you know, the other one another
guys that I absolutely, utterly love is Dwight Moody. Yeah.
And Mr. Moody was remarkable. Here's a guy who came
(14:47):
from nothing. Um, a guy who loved Jesus and served
the Lord to the best of his ability. Incredible humility.
Never wanted anything named after himself. He. He would go.
He would be absolutely appalled to war on Moody radio.
S1 (15:07):
Moody radio.
S2 (15:10):
He, uh, his brand was Jesus.
S1 (15:14):
Yes, sir.
S2 (15:15):
He wanted it about Jesus. Um. And just an incredibly
remarkable guy. But he made mistakes, too.
S1 (15:24):
Sure.
S2 (15:25):
And, uh, what what he did with what he had is,
is absolutely stunning. In fact, just the name that people
are probably more familiar with or the ministry they're more
familiar with is Billy Graham and Billy Graham, uh, deliberately
(15:47):
copied Mr. Moody. Mr. Moody was his model. I found
a letter when I was digging around in Mr. Moody's
stuff that Billy Graham wrote to Mr. Moody's daughter and said,
I don't know if you have any idea the kind
of impact that your father's ministry has had around the world.
It was just, just absolutely, utterly stunning. So off the
(16:10):
off the top of my head, those those are just
4 or 5 names.
S1 (16:15):
So it seems like we have a real monolithic mindset.
Either someone is good or they're bad. They're moving forward
or they're pulling us backwards. Uh, I love the fact
that you see people in 3D. You see people as
they are, how God has used them and inspires us
(16:38):
to be used by God to. All right. So we've
talked a little bit about the early church. I got
to do one more thing. Okay. Okay. Let me backtrack
a little bit. Nicene Creed. Uh, talk about that.
S2 (16:51):
Well, Nicene Creed, uh, comes out of the the, um,
early church history when Christianity becomes legalized. Yeah. There is
an emperor. The emperor's name is Constantine. Now, most people
are more familiar with his half brother Ovaltine. Who invented
(17:12):
the malted milk drink? Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah,
it's a dad joke.
S1 (17:17):
It is a dad joke. And you know what? It's
not a bad one. It's not.
S2 (17:21):
Okay, well. Thank you. Roy? Yeah. Uh. Uh, so Constantine
converts in 300, around 300. He, um, wants the empire
to be Christian. And one of the things he finds
out is there's a debate among the Christians whether or
not Jesus is God. Well, we. You know, what do you.
(17:43):
What are we doing here? We can't have a we
gotta know who the head of the religion is. And
so there, there is a meeting among bishops in the
city of Nicaea, and I'll do this as short as possible.
The essence of the argument is this If Jesus is
(18:03):
not God, he cannot save anybody.
S1 (18:08):
Um.
S2 (18:10):
I'll say that again. If Jesus is not God, he
cannot save anybody. And anytime you talk about Jesus and
you make him less God than the Father is God,
you are by definition destroying the Christian doctrine of salvation. Wow.
Christians teach that you are saved by faith in Jesus Christ,
(18:35):
and if he is not God, he cannot solve the
problem because the problem is sin and death, and only
God can defeat sin and death. and you might as
well put your trust in me.
S4 (18:54):
Hmm? Hmm?
S2 (18:56):
No creature. No creature. No creature can defeat sin and death.
But Jesus can. And he can because he's fully God.
And if he isn't God, we're without hope. That's the
(19:16):
essence of Nicaea. When we say Jesus is God, we
mean He is God in the same sense that we
mean the Father is God.
S4 (19:29):
Mm.
S2 (19:30):
That's the essence of Nicaea. Now, it's a very technical argument, but.
But Jesus is the same kind of being that the
father is. You cannot make the father more God than Jesus,
or Jesus cannot save us.
S4 (19:48):
Mhm.
S1 (19:50):
Yeah I like these theological theological waters that we're swimming
in right now. This is, this is some really good stuff.
And I'm blessed by it because I live in a world.
You live in a world. Greg. Greg. Quiggle. That that says, uh,
my truth is my truth. Your truth is your truth.
Let's just be comfortable. I mean, there's surely there's more
(20:10):
than one way to God. Surely there's more than one
form of salvation. Don't be so narrow minded. What do
you say to that?
S2 (20:19):
Well, look, uh, everybody's going to die.
S1 (20:23):
Yeah.
S2 (20:26):
And there's something deeply, fundamentally wrong with all of us.
And if if we could fix it, we would. If
humans could fix it, we would have fixed it by now.
But we can't. So. Who can fix this. And the
(20:48):
essence of the Christian message is that the problem that
we face can only be solved by God. And God
actually entered human history in the person of Jesus Christ.
And because of that, Jesus is capable of doing what
(21:10):
no one else can do. Buddha cannot do it. Muhammad
cannot do it. No one can do it. Only God
can save. There is no other name given among men
whereby ye must be saved. It's not a matter of
(21:31):
being narrow, it's a matter of being honest. I am
going to die. You are going to die. Every person
that hears this broadcast is going to die.
S4 (21:44):
Mm.
S2 (21:46):
And there is only one type of person that can
beat that. And that's God. And Jesus the Son of
God said, I'm the way, I'm the truth, and I'm
the life, and I will give you eternal life. I
(22:08):
can beat this. I did beat this. I rose from
the dead. Jesus lives and so shall I. That's the
Christian promise. Those who give themselves and faith to him
do not need to fear death. It will. It has
been defeated, and it will be defeated, and we will
(22:29):
reign with him. That's the essence of the Christian message.
S1 (22:34):
It's powerful and necessary. We've got to hear that. We've
got to stand on that. Absolutely. Hey, I've got a
couple of minutes before we have to take a hard
break at the bottom of the hour. Let's talk about
American Christianity. How did it get started and and who
was involved in it?
S2 (22:52):
Sure. Well, American Christianity was imported from Europe. Europeans brought
it over when they came over in various, um, at
various points in time, they brought their Christianity with them.
And so they brought the various types of Christianity, depending
(23:15):
on where they came from in Europe. So some of
them would have brought various brands of English Christianity, others
would have brought various brands of Christianity from the continent.
So you would have had all those state churches or
established churches from the European continents, that would have been
(23:39):
brought over by European colonialists when they came over and
they would have brought their religion with them, and that
that's how the story starts. Now, what makes America different
is America decided to do something that no other Western
(24:01):
country had ever tried. They said, we're not going to
have a state church. We are not going to have
an established religion. We're going to let people decide for themselves. Whoa,
(24:24):
that's a wild idea.
S1 (24:27):
How about.
S2 (24:27):
It? Nobody in Europe had ever tried that. And so
that's going to create a whole different dynamic about how
religion is going to function in the United States, and
we can spend a good amount of time sort of
(24:47):
diving into that. If we're up against a break here,
we can we can spend some time going into that
or we can start doing that now, if you'd like. Roy,
it's up to you.
S1 (24:56):
Hey, I got about 30s before I have to hit
the break. Um, take that time, please.
S2 (25:01):
Okay. If the state is staying out of the religion business,
then the question is who controls what happens in terms
of religion? And the answer is the people do. So
(25:25):
you can practice anything you want by way of religion
in this country. And we'll talk about that more after
the break.
S1 (25:33):
Sounds good. We're talking with Doctor Greg Quickel. Uh, I
think he's a genius when it comes to church history.
So much to say. So much inspiration. Love for you
to give us a call. The number is 87754836758775483675. I
think we have to know history or we're doomed to
(25:56):
repeat it. I'm Roy Patterson sitting in for Chris Brooks.
You keep it locked right where it is. This is equipped.
Welcome back to equipped with Chris Brooks I'm Roy Patterson.
(26:18):
Thanks so much for hanging out with me. You know,
there is a devil out there that hates you. And
he hates me. He loves to take our sexual struggles
and build strongholds. That separates us from God. We start
believing that we can't go to church anymore or fellowship
with the saints anymore. We're locked down. We're isolated because
(26:41):
we're so ashamed. Well Surrendered Sexuality by Julie Slattery breaks
down those barriers and shows you the path to freedom
without shame and into the welcoming arms of our loving
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(27:04):
That's 888644 4144. Or you can visit equipped radio.org. I
hope you'll do that today. Thanks in advance for your support.
All right, Greg, let's get back into this church history thing.
So the people come to America and they're excited. It's
not going to be a state church. And then what happens?
S2 (27:29):
Well, then then, uh, then it's, uh. I'll use an
old expression. Katie, bar the door. That means that means
there are no rules.
S1 (27:39):
Ah.
S2 (27:40):
And the rule? The only rule is the only limiting
factor is your ability to get people to follow you.
So what that means is American religion is incredibly vibrant.
It's very popular. It's driven by the masses. It tends
(28:06):
to be very simple. I didn't say simplistic. There's a difference.
Simple because it has to be driven by the common man. So, Roy,
if you and I tomorrow want to start a church,
who's going to stop us?
S4 (28:22):
Hmm hmm.
S1 (28:23):
Nobody.
S2 (28:24):
Nobody. Right? Nobody. Right? Right. So tomorrow we can, if
you and I tomorrow say we want to start the
Church of Abracadabra, we can go and we can file
some paperwork with the state of Illinois and the federal government.
We get tax exempt number. And the only thing that's
(28:44):
going to limit us is our capacity to get people
to come and give us money.
S4 (28:51):
Right, right.
S2 (28:54):
And so what that does is that's going to create
incredible diversity. So what we have is free enterprise of religion.
So religion Christianity in America functions the same way business does.
(29:20):
So if you want to start a grocery store. Who's
stopping you?
S1 (29:28):
Interesting.
S2 (29:30):
Nobody. The only thing that. The only thing that's limiting
you is your capacity to make the business work, right?
S4 (29:38):
Yes.
S2 (29:38):
And so it's the same sort of thing. Now, what
that means is again, the upside to this is American.
American Christianity is going to be very practical. It's going
to be very vibrant. It's going to be very simple.
But sometimes it's also going to be nutty.
S4 (30:01):
Mhm. Wow.
S1 (30:03):
Wow.
S2 (30:03):
And because there are no rules right.
S4 (30:06):
Mm. Mm.
S2 (30:08):
So you can create anything you want if you and
I want to start the church of Abracadabra and we
want to say, well you know we, we have, we
were walking down the street and God told us that
if you rub your forehead sideways on Thursday afternoon and
(30:29):
say abracadabra, uh, you will see a vision of Jesus.
And I have a special version of the Bible that
when you read it on Wednesday and you do this
on Thursday, and if you send me $400, you will
get a special blessing in the mail.
S4 (30:49):
Mhm. Mhm.
S2 (30:52):
Is anyone going to be able to stop that.
S4 (30:55):
No.
S2 (30:56):
No. And we see this. Right.
S1 (30:58):
Right.
S2 (30:59):
I mean and so so this this is both the
blessing and the curse. Curse of American religion. So you
know one of the questions is why are there so
many different kinds of churches in America? Why not? Why
are there so many different kinds of ketchup when you
go to the grocery store?
S4 (31:18):
Sure.
S1 (31:19):
Sure.
S2 (31:20):
It's the same principle. Right?
S4 (31:22):
Right.
S2 (31:22):
As as long as you get somebody to buy it,
somebody can make another brand of ketchup. As long as
you can make somebody to buy it. Somebody can make
another brand of mustard. As long as you get somebody
to buy it, somebody can make another kind of church.
So if you are a very. Charismatic, popular, colorful person
(31:52):
who is able to move people.
S4 (31:59):
Um.
S2 (32:00):
It's very likely. You can build a church.
S4 (32:06):
Yeah.
S2 (32:07):
And, and we see some of this. And so we see,
you know, the downside of this is people get into
Christianity because frankly, there's money in it.
S4 (32:18):
Mhm. Mm.
S2 (32:20):
And there was a movie I think it was in
the 1950s. You and I are probably old enough to
remember this. It was called Elmer Gantry. Remember that.
S4 (32:28):
With.
S2 (32:28):
Burt Lancaster.
S4 (32:29):
Caster?
S2 (32:29):
Yeah, where he's a traveling evangelist who is a womanizer
and all, and he's just a charlatan, and he just
goes around and he's making money, big money. And we
know this, Roy. We see it generation after generation after generation.
There's another man or woman that's figured out they're really
(32:51):
not committed to Jesus at all. This is a money
making scheme. And who controls it? Who can stop this?
And the answer is nobody. That's the downside to having
free enterprise in religion. So there's no control. There's no restraints.
(33:14):
There's no there's no limits. You can make up stuff.
And and America has created some really crazy kinds of stuff.
S4 (33:25):
Mhm.
S2 (33:26):
Um, There's lots of. Really. There was a group that started,
you know, that they were called the Millerites, that he
was convinced that Jesus was returning to upstate New York
in 1844. Well, that didn't work out very well. They
(33:46):
all went to upstate New York in 1844, and he
didn't return. They called it the Great Disappointment. Right. Ah,
it was 1845. So then that didn't work out either. Well,
you know. So and then there was something called the
Oneida colonies. They practiced communal everything, including they called it
(34:09):
complex marriage. Everybody was married to everybody.
S4 (34:12):
Oh, my.
S2 (34:13):
Yeah. And again, who's stopping this stuff?
S4 (34:16):
Mm.
S2 (34:17):
So you get all this kind of stuff. Experimentation. Free enterprise. Uh,
and that's why there are so many different kinds. That's
why in America, the non-denominational is so that that is
(34:38):
so incredibly popular. It's a church start started by somebody
that answers to nobody but that congregation.
S1 (34:46):
So on one hand, it's it's freedom, but it can
lead to something that is certainly unbiblical. All right. So
I want to ask you about Jonathan Edwards. And, you know,
Finney and and all of those all of those guys,
you got some favorites in American Christianity.
S2 (35:05):
Yes. And, and, uh, I love Jonathan Edwards. Jonathan Edwards
did things that were awful, too. He owned a slave.
S1 (35:14):
I remember, and not firsthand, I don't remember just so
people don't think I'm that old, but, uh, go ahead.
S2 (35:23):
And you say how And, um, I don't know. But
I know this. If if the Lord tarries 100 years,
people will look at us and say, how did they
do that?
S4 (35:35):
Yeah.
S2 (35:36):
Um, because people have blind spots. Edwards, uh, understanding of
the sovereignty of God, his conception of what constitutes true religion,
what a real revival was. Editor Edwards. Edwards understood when
(35:58):
revivals happen, not only is God the Holy Spirit working,
but so is the devil.
S4 (36:05):
Hmm.
S2 (36:07):
And so ever revival, there's three things happening. God is working,
the devil is working. And people are also engaging in self-deception.
S4 (36:17):
Hmm.
S2 (36:18):
And so he's the guy that said we need discernment.
And he wrote an incredibly important book called Treatise on
Religious Infection. Infections, affections. It's a very, very, very dense book.
But you can get, in essence, what he says this
(36:38):
if it's a real revival, it'll stick, it'll last.
S4 (36:42):
I'll tell you.
S2 (36:43):
A story after the break to explain that.
S1 (36:45):
I can't wait to hear about it. I'm fascinated by
the move of God through the people of God, and
how God has used this country to get the gospel
out to not only the rest of our country, but
to the world. I want you guys to keep it
locked right where it is. I'm Roy Patterson, sitting in
for Chris Brooks. Doctor Greg Quiggle is our guest. Love
(37:08):
for you to give him a call. We'll be back
right after this. On equipped.
S3 (37:17):
In today's rapidly changing culture, Christians need solid biblical guidance
more than ever. That's our mission here at Equip to
provide biblical wisdom for life's toughest questions. When you step
in as an equipper, you're not just giving your monthly
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(37:39):
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S1 (37:56):
Welcome back to equipped with Chris Brooks I'm Roy Patterson.
Thank you so much for hanging out with me. Excited
about this program today I love history, I really do
American history. Uh, World War two history history history, history.
And to talk about church history. What God has done
(38:18):
something in this world and it's phenomenal. And it's amazing
that he uses people, ordinary people like you and like me,
to impact this culture. Doctor Greg Quiggle is with us. Hey,
before you tell us that story concerning Jonathan Edwards, uh,
let's go to Mark on line one. Mark, please go
(38:40):
ahead with your question. You got to keep it brief
because I've only got a little bit of time left.
Go ahead. Mark.
S5 (38:46):
Well, I think anti-Semitism is tragic and deplorable, but I'm
wondering if Luther honestly misread a phrase. In John. When
John talks about the Jews, he doesn't mean all Jews.
He means the Jewish authorities. And it was. It's just
like the way young people in the 60s used the
(39:08):
phrase the establishment. They didn't mean their favorite youth pastor
or their favorite school teacher. They meant the people who
were running the systems of that day. And so I
wonder if I'm right that Luther misunderstood that phrase in
John the Jews.
S1 (39:24):
Thanks, Mark. Appreciate the question. Go ahead doc.
S2 (39:27):
Yeah. Um, Luther's problem with Luther's problem with the Jews
was less racial than it was theological. So I don't
think it was a biblical thing. What what Luther was
arguing was that the Jewish people of his day were
(39:48):
pushing what he believed constituted a, a, a works justification.
And he saw that as being wrong, and therefore he
saw them as being on the side of Satan. I mean,
so I don't think he got it from a reading
of a biblical text in that sense. I think he
(40:08):
got it from his understanding of the text and, um,
without getting too much further into it in order to
save time, I think we'll just. We'll just have to
have to leave it there. If a Jewish person converted
to Christianity, he fully accepted them as a brother and
sister in Christ. So it wasn't necessarily a racial thing.
(40:31):
It was about their understanding of how a person was
justified by works. Although that's even that's a simplification. But
let's just leave it there for now.
S1 (40:44):
Sounds good. Hey Mark, thanks so much for calling in.
Let's go to Nancy from Homewood on line two. Nancy,
please go ahead with your question.
S6 (40:52):
Yes. I would like to know what is the meaning
of lent and the putting the ashes on the head?
I don't, uh, can't understand that.
S2 (41:03):
Yeah, that's a very good question. And I'm probably not
a very good guy to answer it, given that I
was raised a Baptist. Um, the the idea is, um,
that you are in entering into the period of mourning, um,
(41:23):
leading up to the crucifixion of Christ. And so you
are you are recreating in your own life and entering
into that experience whereby Christ is making payment for your sin.
And so you're doing that by giving up something, by
(41:45):
going by by experiencing a kind of suffering yourself to
give you just a just a smidgeon of understanding what
your salvation cost. Christ.
S4 (41:57):
Mm.
S1 (41:58):
Interesting. All right. Hey, here's the number to call if
you want to talk to Doctor Greg Quiggle. It is 87754836758775483675.
So glad that Jesus paid it all. All to him
I owe. hey, you got a story about Jonathan Edwards?
(42:18):
Please go ahead.
S2 (42:19):
Yeah, well, I'm going to illustrate Edwards point. There was
a revival. I don't know, 30 years or so ago
on campus at Wheaton College. I happened to live in Wheaton.
I was over there, and I was talking to a
guy walking across campus, and he said, you know, I
see you guys are having a service or something. He said, yeah,
(42:40):
we're having hoopla. I went, what? What do you mean
you're having hoopla?
S4 (42:44):
Revival.
S2 (42:45):
And he said, he said, we won't know for 20
years whether or not this is real.
S4 (42:52):
Hmm.
S2 (42:54):
And what he meant by that is precisely what Edwards
was saying. If it's real, it'll stick. Real revival is
not something that lasts a weekend. Real revival is something
that produces a life long change.
S1 (43:13):
Interesting.
S2 (43:15):
And so that that is I think what Edwards is about,
real revival is a fundamental change of the being. While
it may have massive impact in the moment, true Christianity
is a fundamental change of the being that leads to
a fundamental change of life, not just a a burst
(43:39):
of activity for a weekend.
S4 (43:41):
Hmm.
S1 (43:42):
It's interesting because there are folks who've experienced religious fervor and, um,
eventually that died down. But the revivals that have fascinated
me have not only touched the church, but people have
stopped drinking bars have shut down houses of prostitution, cease
(44:02):
to exist. It really impacted the culture. Uh, that particular area.
Isn't that right?
S2 (44:10):
Yes. And so, I mean, in our own day. Look
what happened after nine over 11. There's that spurt of
religious activity in New York City, right? So the question is,
did any of it stick?
S4 (44:29):
Hmm.
S2 (44:30):
And that those are the questions that Edwards wants us
to ask because he says if it's a real act
of God, it sticks.
S1 (44:42):
And it's powerful. Go ahead please.
S2 (44:44):
Yeah. And I think I think that is I think
when you read the New Testament, that's true. Um, you know,
when Jesus calls the 1211 of them stick. Now, they,
you know, they trip and fall. And what? But 11
(45:06):
of them stick.
S4 (45:07):
Hmm hmm.
S2 (45:09):
And and and so I think that to judge, to make,
to come to conclusions about revival solely in the moment
is to miss the purpose of a revival. The purpose
of revival is not just to have fervor in the moment.
(45:29):
The purpose of the revival is to be converted, to
be transformed, not just to be momentarily turbocharged.
S1 (45:44):
What I've seen in church history, and again, I've taken
you as as my prof. So that's my disclaimer, is
that there can be such a powerful move of God,
but there's bound to be persecution. I've only got a
minute left. Give me a quick comment on that.
S2 (46:03):
That is true. And sometimes persecution is purifying. Sometimes persecution
is destructive. There was a church of 300,000 in Japan.
At one point. It was. It was crucified into extinction
by the shoguns.
S4 (46:22):
Hmm.
S2 (46:24):
So? So persecution often follows, uh, powerful movements of God.
S1 (46:31):
I got 30s left. If people want to reach out
to you, how can they do it?
S7 (46:36):
Oh, boy. That's a good question.
S2 (46:39):
Uh, you can reach me at my email. Ranch 812
at Hotmail.com. Ranch 812@hotmail.com.
S1 (46:48):
Great wonderful, wonderful. Teacher, preacher. Tour leader. Reach out to them.
Would you please do that? And Roy Patterson, you're listening
to equip with Chris Brooks. This is a production of
the Moody Radio Network under the umbrella of the Moody
Bible Institute. Until next time, walk in Grace and peace.
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