July 8, 2025 • 47 mins
Do you feel isolated and lonely? If you're longing to connect with others, don't miss the next Equipped. Guest host Roy Patterson welcomes Dr. Heather Holleman. She will explore the six conversations that can help make inroads to forming relationships. Then we'll welcome the most-awarded female gospel artist of all time, CeCe Winans. Hear how God's been working in her life lately through her music and ministry. Don't miss Tuesday’s Equipped.
Featured resources:
The Six Conversations by Heather Holleman
More Than This CD by CeCe Winans
July thank you gift:
Surrendered Sexuality by Dr. Juli Slattery
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:19):
Well. Hey there friends, welcome to another exciting edition of
equip with Chris Brooks! I'm so thrilled that you've joined
us today. Do me a favor strap on your seat
belt as we navigate through the contours of culture, as
always with the lens of the biblical worldview on. But
before we do that, let me remind you, this is
the day that the Lord has made. He is giving
(00:40):
it as a gift so that you and I can
rejoice and be glad in it. So let's do just that.
Let's follow the words of the Apostle Paul. Let's rejoice
in the Lord always. And again I say, rejoice. Today
I want you to help me welcome my good friend
Roy Patterson to the host seat. Roy is a man
of God who has ministered through radio and the pastorate
(01:01):
for decades. He's the host and originator of the Urban
Praise streaming channel, and also host Celebration of Praise and
Music for Sunday here on Moody Radio. Roy, thank you
for leading this edition of equip.
S2 (01:16):
What a joy it is to be here with my
Equip family! It really is the day the Lord has made,
and we're rejoice and we're magnifying God for who he
is and all the great things that he said and
that he's done. I'm grateful for every opportunity to interact
with you, especially about what's going on in our culture,
(01:36):
what's happening in the power of God as the light
of the Lord really knocks back the power of darkness. Hey,
today we've got a wonderful, wonderful guest. Actually, we've got two.
And we'll be talking about conversations and music ministry. Start
off with Heather Holloman. This is a dear, dear sister.
She is an associate teaching professor at Penn State. She's
(02:00):
a speaker. She's an author and serves with Faculty commons
in the professor and graduate student ministry of Cru. Heather,
how are you?
S3 (02:10):
I'm doing well. How are you? It's so good to
be on your program. This is going to be fun.
S2 (02:14):
Oh, it's going to be so much fun. You've written
a tremendous book that I think everybody should read. It's
called The Six Conversations Pathways to Connecting in an Age
of Isolation and Incivility. When you think of conversations, what
comes to mind?
S3 (02:31):
Curiosity. Number one most important word. I've been in so
many social situations where no one asks one question or
you're out on a date with someone. The guy doesn't
ask you one question. You're out with a friend to coffee.
She doesn't ask you one question. Curiosity is the is
the key to great conversations, and it's a way to
really love people.
S2 (02:52):
It's interesting because we've got such a deluge of of information.
You know, we can Google, we can go to AI,
we can hey, hey, Heather, we can go back and
pick up a dusty encyclopedia. And we seem to know everything,
you know. And so it seems like we need to
set all that stuff to the side and say, wait
a minute. I just want to know who you are,
(03:14):
what you do, where you're from, and how life is
treating you.
S3 (03:18):
I love that, and I think you're right. Also, I've
noticed in the culture people are monologuing a lot. My TikTok,
my Instagram is just a lot of people talking at me.
And you're right. Nobody's just sitting down and saying, I
want to learn about you. And my favorite thing in
the world is to ask people, tell me what Jesus
is teaching you. How are you experiencing the Lord? Because
(03:40):
then I learn so much when I just ask people,
how are you experiencing God? So curiosity, just position yourself
to be curious. And my book gives six ways to
be curious about people.
S2 (03:51):
It's fascinating when I talk to people and they're on
their phones, they're on their iPads or whatever it might be,
the androids and and they're looking down and they're not
making eye contact. There doesn't seem to be this connection.
Do you tie that in to loneliness? Do you tie
that into isolation?
S3 (04:09):
Yes. I feel like more and more research is coming
out that these are kind of false forms of connection.
You know, when you're connecting online, you can have, you know,
some connection with people like, you know, I have a
family group chat. I love texting my friends, but nothing
replaces that connection face to face with people where you're
really experiencing community the way God designed. And yeah, we're
(04:32):
seeing an increase in loneliness. The most recent 2020 research
I'm reading says about 57% of the population is claiming
to be lonely. You know, not having meaningful in-person conversations.
So this is a real problem. I mean, the loneliness
epidemic is real. The health outcomes are terrible for loneliness.
So it's really important to address this, you know, from
(04:54):
a mental health and physical health, but also spiritually. God
made us relational. He's a relational God. So I just
feel really passionate about helping people have better conversations. It
can save marriages. It's great for children and grandchildren. I
know you've got four. Yeah, I do know how to connect.
How to connect? How do you ask good questions? How
do you connect with people.
S2 (05:15):
Mhm. Yeah. Those are the right questions okay. So I
grew up you're a lot younger than me. But I
grew up in an age where there were you know
that was part of the entertainment. Just just laughing together.
Talking together. What happened Heather can you just tell us
what happened? How did we become so mean and so
isolated and contentious?
S3 (05:36):
Well, I did the title of the book is Pathways
to Connecting in an Age of Isolation and Incivility. And
I don't know when it actually began. I trace it
back to maybe 2016. I just noticed a lot of
incivility and, you know, people just trying to connect through
hating one another. So it's almost like, wow, they thought,
(05:56):
you know, maybe I can find community by who we
hate or something like that. It was very odd. And
I noticed with my students they began to be very
suspicious and judgmental. So they're profoundly alone. And I would
ask them, well, when you're trying to meet someone, what's
going through your mind? And they would say things like, well,
who did you vote for? What did you believe about vaccines?
(06:17):
You know, what did you believe about Roe v Wade
or are you pro-Israel? Things that are very political, very
divisive in the culture. And I said to them, well,
you know what? If you believe the best about people,
what if you try to learn from people? That's a
different way. That's a different mindset than what I was
seeing in the culture. And that motivated me to write
the book, because I learned if you want to have
(06:38):
a loving connection with someone, it's not just about curiosity.
You have to have another mindset which is really believing
the best about them. And that comes out of Romans 12.
Philippians two. I mean, Romans 12 says to love your enemies,
you know, outdo one another in showing honor. Bless those
who persecute you. Totally different than what we're hearing in
the culture.
S2 (06:58):
I've heard people say, I mean, believers say this. I've
heard them say that they would rather go at somebody really,
really hard than to give them the benefit of the doubt,
to love them, to encourage them. I've even heard people
say they hate people that disagree with them. Um, I'm
concerned about that. I'm praying for people that have this
(07:21):
this mindset. And I really, really think that you hit
hit a nerve there just a second ago when you
said it's not just curiosity, it's an issue of of
trust giving people the benefit of the doubt. Is there
a way for us to get from point A, which
is the point of angry, and get to point B,
a place of benevolence?
S3 (07:42):
Well, two things helped me and set me free. The
first is I really meditated on Philippians two. It says
to value others above yourself. Take on the nature of
a servant. Take on the interests of other people. You
can't do that if you're hating them and believing they're
the enemy. The second thing that God used in my
life was a therapist actually told me, Heather, people are
(08:04):
not the enemy. Satan is the enemy. Oh, boy. So
you're kind of fighting the rhino. That's deep, isn't it?
S2 (08:10):
It is, it is.
S3 (08:10):
I was kind of fighting the wrong battle. And I
thought to myself, you know, there's a whole cultural system,
you know, Ephesians two says, the God of this age has,
you know, think about the idea that there's a ruler
of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is
now at work in those who are disobedient. And you
think about if you're going to live out Romans 12,
you're really ushering in a whole different kind of kingdom.
(08:32):
You know, it's a new way of thinking and living
where you're going to love people radically love those, bless
those who persecute you. It's a really different way of living.
I had to change the most. I was the most
immature in this area and I thought, well, to go
out and love people and believe the best about them,
the first thing that changed was instead of insulting my
neighbor for voting for someone I didn't agree with, I said, look, I.
(08:55):
I can tell that you care deeply about these issues.
I would love to know the story of when you
first started caring about politics. Tell me your story. And
when I was in the realm of narrative instead of
the realm of argument, we actually had a really warm connection.
And that's what the research says is what we're missing
warm connections with people. So get curious. Find out the
(09:17):
story of why people believe what they believe. You're going
to learn a lot. You're going to be living out
Philippians two in Romans 12. You're going to be conformed
to the image of Christ when you do those things.
S2 (09:27):
Mhm. Okay. So you're inspiring me now. I just, I
just I just want you to know that you're inspiring.
S3 (09:34):
Well I'm glad I need it. I need, you know,
my favorite teaching quote is we teach what we most
need to learn. And remember I'm on a college campus.
This is not easy for me to live out every day. No, no,
I do it by the power of the Holy Spirit.
I'm going to love you. Believe the best. I'm going
to learn from you.
S2 (09:49):
Mm. Well, here's here's how you're inspiring me. I'm. I'm
thinking that there is an element of worldliness that goes
with this contention. Rather than me loving you, rather than
me forgiving you, understanding you. Working with you. Relating to you.
It's just easier for me to write you off and
(10:09):
really succumb to the. You know, I have this picture
of a puppet master, and the puppet master is saying, yeah,
don't like them, don't care about them, don't don't agree
with them, don't go along with them. Just, just just
stick to yourself. And everyone who looks like you, talks
like you and thinks like you. And that is really worldly,
(10:29):
isn't it?
S3 (10:31):
Well, it is, and it sounds like pride to me.
That's the problem. It's not a humble spirit, a humble,
teachable spirit. When you're with your neighbors or in your
community and you're thinking, I know more than all of you,
and I'm right and you can't teach me anything, it's
a terrible way to live. I did some research about arrogance.
I mean, there are these pitfalls and conversations, and I
(10:52):
asked my students, you know, what character quality do you
most love in people? And they love this idea of
when you're with a humble person. Yeah. It's wonderful. There's
nothing worse than arrogance. And you know, the way that
Paul talks in Philippians two changed my mind. I mean,
Jesus humbled himself. He took on the nature of a servant.
(11:12):
And when you think about that, what does it mean
to be a servant in conversation? Well, a servant in
a conversation would be wanting to bless people, asking about them,
not making it all about you and how much you know.
S2 (11:25):
You're absolutely right. It really, really is. I cannot wait
to get back from this break. I want us to
talk about what it means to have humanity and look
at the six dimensions of of humanity. You go into
some really great things in your book, and I think
it's going to profit us as we interact with folks
who are like us, look like us, and folks who
(11:46):
are different. And yet we can be blessed, we can
be encouraged, we can be inspired by them as well.
We're with Heather Holloman today, and we're talking about her book,
The Six Conversations. I hope you will stick with us.
I'm Roy Patterson. I'm sitting in for Chris Brooks. This
is equipped.
S1 (12:15):
The enemy loves to take our sexual struggles and build
strongholds to separate us from God. We start believing lies
like we can't go to church anymore or that God
couldn't possibly love us. Surrender Sexuality by Julie Slattery breaks
down those barriers and shows you the path to freedom
without shame and into the welcoming arms of Jesus. We'll
(12:38):
send you a copy with our thanks when you support
equip this month. Simply call 888644 4144 or visit Equip radio.org.
S2 (12:57):
Welcome back to equip equipped with Chris Brooks. I'm Roy Patterson.
Thanks so much for hanging out with me. Hey love
to hear from you. Love for you to talk with
Heather Holloman. Our number is (877)Â 548-3675. That's (877)Â 548-3675. Hey, by
the way, Cece Winans will be joining us in about
20 minutes till the top of the hour. And we'll
(13:20):
have fun with her as well. But I'm thrilled right
in this moment to talking, to talk to this author,
this speaker, this teacher. She's just a wonderful woman of God. Hey, Heather,
I want to talk about humanity. What does it mean
to be human? And I think you've got, like, six
dimensions of it, right?
S3 (13:38):
Yes. And these were six categories that my husband and
I developed because people were having trouble asking questions in
conversations and then asking follow up questions. And we thought
of the six dimensions of what it means to be human.
So in conversation, you've got six pathways. You can ask
questions about social things, emotional things, physical things, cognitive things, volitional,
(14:02):
which is the fancy word for human decisions and spiritual.
And this is a game changer. When you see your friend,
you don't have to say, how are you? You can say, hey,
I'd love to hear about your friends. Who are you
spending time with? That's a social question. Or cognitive? That's
my favorite category of conversation. I love it when my
husband or friends say, Heather, what have you been thinking about?
(14:25):
And a lot of people who get stuck in conversation.
The best question to ask is in the volitional category.
What I advise is give a compliment and say, how
did you decide? So hey, I love those shoes. How
did you decide to get the Hokas instead of the Nike's?
You're going to have a great conversation with people. So
these are the six categories. Yep.
S2 (14:46):
Okay, so you are one of my favorite speakers. And
I say that sincerely because you've always got good, good stories.
And so I want to ask you about and you
can just pick any of them, any of these dimensions
where you were surprised or you were like, huh? I
hadn't thought of that, I hadn't I didn't see that coming.
You got any stories where people have interacted with you
(15:08):
about any of these these these dimensions?
S3 (15:11):
Well, all the time. And what you need to know
is my primary gift is evangelism. So a lot of
people ask me, how are you able to have so
many great conversations about Jesus all the time? And it's
because what's so surprising is how quickly you can get
to gospel conversations. If you just ask like a question
in the physical category. This is really surprising to me
(15:31):
that people love to talk about their bodies. So I
if I'm at the gym, I'll ask someone. I'll say, hey,
you know, say, I just met him, we're talking and
I'll be like, are you someone who has any injuries
you're recovering from? And someone will be like, yeah, I
have a rotator cuff injury. And I'll ask about the
physical therapy. And I'll say, was that really challenging for you?
(15:51):
All of a sudden? We're in the emotional category and
I'm like, how did you handle that? The disappointment of
not being able to go to the gym, and then
when it's my turn to share, I can say something like,
you know, I was really disappointed in that. Just the
way God made me. I do not have a good
knee and I really struggled with that. And then suddenly
we're talking about spiritual things, how God made us. It's amazing. Roy,
(16:12):
just go down any category. So the physical has probably
surprised me the most. People love to talk about physical spaces.
They love to talk about the five senses. If you're
stuck in conversation, ask people, have you tried any new
restaurants lately? Have you tried any new, anything new people
love to talk about? That's really surprised me. The ease
of talking about the physical category.
S2 (16:34):
Have you ever been sort of shook by the response?
And by that I mean just how people are so
lonely and they seem to be so incomplete, and they
look at you and they think, at last, somebody is
interested in me.
S3 (16:51):
This happens all the time, especially with travel. but I
found a really good question that it has led to
people crying in my presence. It has led to people
sending me gifts in the mail. And here's the question.
You're just talking to someone and you say, you know,
I just want to know, you know, what have you
been thinking about lately? What was on your mind most
this week? And the first person I was at the
(17:12):
church info desk and the first man. I didn't know
this man very well. My husband and I were standing there.
I said, you know what's been on your mind this week?
He started to cry. He needed to talk about some
hard things going on with his family, and we got it.
It was just a two minute conversation, but we got
an email the next day and he said, look, that
was the most loving question anyone has asked me all year,
(17:32):
and could we go out to lunch? My wife and
I would love to spend time with you all. The
second thing related to that is if you're with anyone
who's grieving, who's had a lot of hardship, and if
you ask them, just tell me what's been on your mind.
What thought is going through your mind you can't get
rid of? When I asked that question and you allow
someone to unburden themselves, which is Galatians six, carry each
(17:53):
other's burdens. You will be amazed at the warm connection
you feel, how much love they feel from you. A
trauma expert taught me that. That a loving question is, hey,
what thought is going through your mind you can't get
rid of? That is a great question to ask people,
especially if they're in a season of hardship.
S2 (18:12):
Well, it sounds so powerful and it sounds so easy
for those of us. And believe it or not, I
have my introverted side. I'm not completely an introvert, but
I've got that side as well. Is it possible to
step out of that shell and then to engage with people?
S3 (18:28):
Well, that's why my husband, ash, he travels with me
and we do a six conversation workshop, a Warm Connections
workshop together because he's an introvert who's really what he
calls proof of concept. He's actually become such an amazing
conversationalist because he always knows how to start and continue
a loving conversation. And he uses the six pathways. It
(18:49):
isn't easy for him, he tells the crowd he still
has to rely on the Lord and step out in faith,
but it always that warm connection is such a reward
for him, and he doesn't need a ton of them
because he's an introvert like you are. But yeah, he'll
usually start with, um, you know, a question. We call
him spark. Questions like, hey, what kind of new things
(19:09):
have you tried lately? But what's interesting about ash is
he also claims he doesn't have the gift of evangelism.
But using the six conversations and really believing. We wrote
a book together called sent. He's led two people on
our street to Jesus.
S2 (19:24):
Wow.
S3 (19:25):
Just by stepping out in faith in the power of
the Holy Spirit. Just talking to people about God, forming
a warm connection. Introverts love this book because it gives
you a strategy that kind of never fails. The other
reason it's great is if you have a young person
in your life who's interested in professional development. A lot
of research is showing that this is your number one
(19:46):
professional development skill, how to be curious and how to
carry a conversation that leads to a warm connection is
the number one skill young people need today.
S2 (19:56):
Well, it sounds like it's at least two gifts that
are operating right now. And I'm not talking about spiritual gifts,
but sort of a gift you would give to someone.
The gift of talking and the gift of listening. The
gift of sparking, as you said. Can you talk about that?
The talking and the listening?
S3 (20:13):
Well, the most important thing I learned in all of
my research, all the different research articles I read, all
the social science, nobody ever taught me how to listen.
And I learned what to listen for. So when you're
listening to someone, what you're listening for is what's called
core values. Listen for what they talk about. And then
you can say to them as you're talking, I can
(20:34):
tell you really value and then say it to them.
They're going to feel so loved. So I was at
a barbecue on, you know, 4th of July. And I
just was talking and I talked to this woman who
loves Penn State tailgating. And I just said, look, as
you're talking, I can tell you really value entertaining. You
love gathering people together. I said, how long have you
(20:55):
been that way? She felt so loved by this conversation.
And she. I was so honored. Roy, I got an
invite to the tailgate, and that is a big deal.
This is an exclusive party. And I.
S2 (21:07):
Got in.
S3 (21:08):
There. Yeah. So listen to what people care about. If
people are talking about their family or projects or if,
you know, just listen carefully. It's really good with children too,
because when they feel really heard by you, they're going
to feel really close to you when you're like, hey,
I can tell you really value your friends or you
really value, you know, whatever it is. Um, they're just
(21:29):
going to when when you say that to people, it
makes them feel like you've listened, that you really get them.
And it's it's what the research is calling a closeness
enhancing behavior.
S2 (21:38):
Um, you also talk about mutual sharing. Um, talk about
it right now.
S3 (21:44):
Well, if you're curious, you believe the best? You're expressing concern,
which is the three mindsets of a loving connection. That's
not going to be a conversation. That's an interview. You
have to share your life. So mutual sharing means you
know what to share. Now a lot of people don't know. Well,
what do I share in conversations. And my husband and
(22:04):
I really say just be aware of three things. Number one,
what's your major stressor this week? What's the thing on
your mind that you're stressed about? Is there kind of
a thought keeping you up at night that you want
to talk about? Or do you have an upcoming decision
you or your family is trying to make? I like
those three because if I were to say, Roy, what
about you? What's going on in your life? You could say, oh, actually, Heather,
(22:25):
our family's trying to make this decision about this. Then
we're going to have a great conversation. So just be aware,
self-aware enough about what stories you want to share in conversation,
because then you'll have a warm connection.
S2 (22:36):
It seems like it's a me too kind of deal.
You know where you're going through this. Say, hey, me too.
I or I have faced that, or I think I
will face it in the future. Please share with me
right now how you're making it, and hopefully you glean
something and it feels like what you're saying is people
feel they they feel seen. Um, I feel valuable when I,
(22:59):
when I talk to you, not only talk to me
at me, but you listen to me. And that seems
to make a difference, doesn't it?
S3 (23:05):
It does. And I think you know how Jesus just
delights in us so much. And we have the love
of the father. Imagine acting that way with your conversation partner,
that you are just delighted in them. You're letting the
love of the father flow through you to them. So
when they're talking to you, they feel like, oh my gosh,
I'm a delightful person.
S4 (23:25):
I am a loved person.
S3 (23:27):
You know how many of us have had conversations where
we just feel that person is so interested in us
and just delighted by us? And that goes way back
to Dale Carnegie when he said, you know how to
win friends and influence people.
S4 (23:38):
Just be.
S3 (23:39):
Interested.
S4 (23:40):
In other people. It's so.
S3 (23:41):
Simple.
S4 (23:41):
Yeah.
S2 (23:42):
Yeah, I love that, I really do. All right, so
the world we live in right now has this contentious
mindset really. You know. Oh my goodness. Acrimonious. Acrimonious is just, uh,
the middle name of some people. So if I want
to turn the page on that because I've got some
friends who are listening right now, I've got like 100,000
(24:04):
friends who are listening right now who are saying, you
know what, maybe I should put down a sledgehammer and
I should put on my listening ears. Are there some
steps that folks can take to stop being so contentious?
S3 (24:16):
Well, one thing I've noticed is I have a lot
of contentious friends on Facebook or Instagram, but when I'm
with them in person, they're not that way.
S4 (24:24):
Amen.
S3 (24:24):
So one of the things I wanted to say is
you may have an online persona that is a political
pundit or your your online presence is very contentious. So
my best advice is take some time away from all
of that. Unless the Lord is calling you to be
a public protester. Think about just interpersonally warm connections. You know,
(24:45):
you want to think about the goal of this conversation
is not to win an argument, but to have a
warm connection. And that helps me. My goal is not
I'm going to win. My goal is what can I
do to feel a warm connection with someone. But I
do believe that there's a place for public protest. And,
you know, all of those things are important.
S4 (25:05):
In our society.
S3 (25:07):
But interpersonally, with your family, with your neighborhood, with your colleagues.
The goal is not to win an argument and to
help you, I want you to remember this storytelling. Stay
in the realm of narrative, not in the realm of argument.
Get them to tell the story, not argument.
S2 (25:24):
That sounds good. We're going to take a break. When
we come back, we want to hear some more about
how to be an effective storyteller, how to relate, how
to engage, how to deal with these six conversations. What
a joy it is to have Heather Holloman with us today. Really,
really is a blessing. You like to talk to her?
Give us a call at (877)Â 548-3675. That's (877)Â 548-3675. I'm Roy
(25:49):
Patterson sitting in for Chris Brooks. We love that guy.
He is a blessing. Such a great intellect and a
big heart of compassion. Stick around. We'll be back with
Heather and Cece Winans after this. Right here on equipped.
(26:17):
Welcome back to equipped with Chris Brooks. I'm Roy Patterson.
Thanks so much for being with me. You got a
question for you. Do you have questions about your sexuality
that no one seems to address, whether it's sexual sin,
gender confusion, or issues in your marriage? Surrendered Sexuality by
Doctor Julie Slattery has insights that you will profit from.
(26:42):
She'll help you see that God wants you to come
to him with any question that you might have, any
struggle that you're going through. And when you do, I
believe God is able to help you, lead you, and
guide you. Request your copy with your gift of any
amount by simply going to equipped. Yeah. Equipped radio.org that's
(27:06):
equipped radio.org. Or you can call 8886444144886444144. We've got Heather
Holloman on the line. Cece Winans is coming up shortly,
and I'm just thrilled to hang out with you guys today.
I'm Roy Patterson. I've got, uh, we got here. We
got Cathy from, uh, Indiana. Cathy, you've got a question
(27:30):
for Heather. Please go ahead.
S5 (27:32):
Yes. Um, God gave me a real desire to, um,
be encourager. especially for young women. And I've gone out
to lunch with some a couple of times, but I
find that I'm stumped. I don't know what to ask.
I kind of wasn't really socialized with as a kid,
so I kind of was by myself, but I really
(27:53):
want to really encourage them. And I know you gave
some pointers and I missed them and I truly don't.
I literally would just say, how are you? And that
would be just dropped after that.
S3 (28:07):
That's right. Um, first of all, I'm so glad you
asked that question. So many people want to encourage. They
want to be mentoring and they don't know how to
ask good questions. Um, instead of how are you? A
lot of people don't answer that question because the the
weak verb ah is stressful to the brain. Here's what
the next time you go out, this is what you say. Hey,
I want to know what has surprised you most about
(28:29):
your week, or what's challenged you most about your week?
Because then the brain can picture that verb in their
mind and you will get a question. I tried this
out on my teen daughters and I tried it out
in real time in my college classroom. I'll say, how
are you? And they'll say, fine, and the conversation ends.
But if I say, okay, what's challenged you most about
(28:50):
today or what surprised you most about today? They'll go
on and on and on. And then what the beauty
of this six conversational pathways is. Once they answer that question,
you have six possible follow up questions. So if you're
mentoring young woman and you say, oh, what's challenged you
most about this week? Maybe she'll say, oh, I got
a new puppy and I'm doing house training for the puppy. Well,
(29:11):
then what do you say? Well, you have six pathways social. Hey, um,
who else have you been talking to about this puppy?
Or who do you bring in to help train? You
can do a physical question. Hey, have you been getting
a lot of good sleep with this puppy? You know,
you're going to go on and on. Do volitional. How
did you decide to get the puppy? You're never going
to get lost in conversation again.
S2 (29:31):
Hmm hmm. Hey, Kathy, we want you to hold on.
I'm going to send you a copy of Heather's book.
S3 (29:36):
Yay!
S2 (29:37):
Yeah, that'd be really cool. It will be all right.
So don't you hang up. Hold on. Please. All right, so, Heather,
it sounds like we can cut through a whole lot
of generational concerns and boundaries and guardrails by asking questions,
because I know that there are people who are saying, um,
if I ask someone who is my age this question,
they would respond one way. Someone else, not so much.
(30:00):
Can can we use these questions on any and everybody?
S3 (30:05):
Well, yes, there are questions that young people enjoy more. Um,
they love to talk about their friends. If I'm with
a teenager or a college person and I'll say, okay,
tell me about your friends. What's the drama? You know,
whatever it is, they love to talk about music. Like
one of the things I learned is I'll say, hey,
what's on your Spotify on repeat? If they you know,
(30:26):
what that means is what is their most played song?
They love talking about that. I have found a lot
of success giving a compliment about their hair or skin
and saying, how did you get it that way? Like,
oh my gosh, your skin is glowing. How did you
get it that way? I have learned more about skincare
and hair care than I've ever wanted to, just by
(30:48):
giving a compliment to your person. Um, they love talking
and trends, you know, whatever it is. Also, young people
like to talk about what they're. But sometimes I'll say.
A teenager, I have a 13 year old neighbor. She
loves to talk about what's annoying her, I love it.
We have the best time. I'm like, tell me, everything
(31:08):
bothering you at school? And, um, so those work with
older people. I feel like it really honors them. Things
that you're learning about the Lord. Teach me all your wisdom.
It honors them. If you have an older person in
your life, ask them questions like, what do you think?
The most important thing is that I should learn about Jesus?
What is the most important thing you've learned about him?
(31:30):
Just ask questions. You're going to have so much fun.
So young people, social questions. Older people ask them about
what they're learning. Ask them to pass on their wisdom
or their garden or pickleball.
S2 (31:43):
There you go. Exactly. I was just talking to our
producer while we were on break, and she said she
has children who will see somebody going down the street,
and they'll just scream out, hey, I like your dog,
or I like your hairdo.
S3 (31:57):
I love it give a compliment. It's a way of
believing the best. In fact, the Yale Relationship Lab said
one of the number one ways to feel close to
people is to express what's called liking. You have to
tell people that you like them. Tell them, I like
this about you, or I have this memory with you,
or compliment anything that you see. It's actually living out
(32:18):
this idea of being an encourager. Um, you know, I
was really convicted by the Bible verse that says, let
no unwholesome talk come out of your mouth, but only
what is helpful for building others up according to their needs.
S2 (32:31):
Hmm. All right. For that person that's sort of timid.
They're a little afraid. Um, what do you say to them.
Because really they're like, I hardly even talk to people.
I barely look in the mirror. Okay, maybe I'm going
too far with that, but I don't talk to a
lot of people for that person that's afraid. What's your
best advice?
S3 (32:49):
My best advice is get a few questions that you
know work for you every time. So my favorite one
when I see people, if I haven't, I mean, and
this is my husband who's an introvert, just to say, hey,
it's good to see you. Who have you been spending
time with this week? Social question. Um, he loves asking
this question. What kind of day are you having on
a scale of 1 to 10? And then his engineering
(33:11):
friends love that because they love numbers. But whatever they say, like, oh,
I'm having a five. This is the best question. What
would have to happen to make it a ten?
S2 (33:20):
Wow.
S3 (33:21):
Ash uses that in the grocery store. He uses it
at the doctor and he's learned more about people. He'll say, okay,
what kind of day are you having? Scale of 1
to 10? And the cashier says, oh, it's a two.
And I shall say a two meaning, you know, zero
is the worst. He'll say, well, what what needs to
happen to make your day a ten? And the woman
was like, well, I didn't get my coffee this morning.
(33:41):
Well guess what? Ash is like, I got you. What's
your Starbucks order? I'm gonna come get it. You know,
you're just gonna love people. Just ask that question.
S2 (33:50):
I got it. Hey, here's the number to call. You
want to talk to Heather Holloman? The number is 87754836758775483675.
All right, so, Heather, I know you're a Bible scholar.
I know you love the word. You just love the
Lord Jesus. And there's no verse in the Bible that
(34:11):
escapes thee. Amen.
S3 (34:14):
Amen. I love that. I do love the word I still,
I still preach Ephesians two 1 to 10 almost every
morning to myself. I love the word. Do you have
do you have a passage that you go back to
every time? You just love it?
S2 (34:28):
My main verse is Psalm 138, verse eight, where it says,
the Lord will perfect that which concerns me.
S3 (34:35):
Ooh.
S2 (34:36):
Yeah, that's that's my verse. I hold on to that.
All right. So here's my question for you. Now in
the Bible, there's a ton of conversations. And that thought
didn't hit me until just this moment talking to you.
I'm thinking, wow, Jesus talking to the disciples and not
just preaching to them, listening to them interact with him,
(34:57):
how Paul and Silas, you know, interacted. And, uh, this
goes on and on. You got any favorite conversations in
the Bible? Yeah. Do you?
S3 (35:06):
I have three. The first is the conversation in the
garden where Jesus where God asks three questions, you know,
where are you? Who told you you were naked? What
have you done? Those are great questions to like. Hey,
where are you? Where have you been? Who told you? Who?
Who are you authorizing to tell you who you are?
And then what have you done? I just love it
(35:27):
because it's like.
S2 (35:28):
That's three.
S3 (35:28):
Questions. Yeah, we all need to answer those questions for
our own life. I love the woman at the well
because she tries to get him in a theological argument,
and he will not take it. He Jesus goes straight
to the truth. The last conversation I've been focusing on
lately is actually on the road to Emmaus, when he's
walking with the two that don't recognize him. And I
(35:50):
just love every time Jesus asks questions, he he actually
asks people to share what they know. Like, hey, haven't
you heard this or what have you thought about this?
If you look through the gospels, Jesus asks questions in
every category of what it means to be human. And
I love his disposition. Sometimes Jesus is that loving, gentle
(36:11):
presence when he has to be strong and just speak
the truth, he's able to do that as well. It's
hard when you're reading a text because you don't know
what his tone of voice was necessarily right. But I
just love reading those. But I think my favorite is Genesis,
because I think those three questions are the three questions.
When you're thinking of conversations with God and yourself, those
(36:31):
are the three questions you need to ask yourself today.
Where am I in relation to God? Who am I
authorizing to tell me who I am? And then what
have I done that means? Am I aware that I'm
a sinner in need of salvation? And is Jesus going
to be my authority or not?
S6 (36:47):
Mm mm.
S2 (36:48):
That's that's pretty compelling. All right. I got one more
Bible verse for you, the verse that says speak the
truth in love. Typically when I hear that verse, when
I hear that verse, I'm thinking of something that's harsh,
that's difficult, um, sometimes even mean spirited. But our conversation
right now has sort of flipped that for me, and
I'm starting to see it from a different perspective. Give
(37:11):
me your thoughts on that verse.
S3 (37:13):
Well, speak the truth in love. When I think of
the four mindsets of a loving conversation, you're curious, believing
the best, expressing concern, and then sharing your life. If
God invites you to have a moment where you're speaking
truth to someone, it's not going to feel like a
weird pivot or like a sales pitch or some kind
(37:33):
of rebuke. It's going to feel really loving. Yeah. Because
you're you already have a warm connection with that person.
And what the research says is you're moving someone from
a reactive brain state to a responsive brain state. So
when you're speaking something that's true that maybe they don't
disagree with, it won't come off as an argument necessarily.
You'll just be telling them like, this is something that
(37:55):
the Bible says, or this is something I've been thinking
about and you're still having a good conversation with them,
but you're able to maybe correct something that they've said
or speak truth into their life. My husband's much better
at that than I am. He's he isn't a flatterer.
He likes to just speak the truth. But he's worked
so hard on building warm connections with people. I think
that's why he's having so much success sharing his faith,
(38:18):
I think, and people are responding to that. I think
it's because he's able to speak the truth in love.
S6 (38:23):
Mm.
S2 (38:24):
Yeah. I'm fascinated by that, because I think that there
are some people who are starving for the truth. They're
starving for an opportunity to hear something different about themselves. Meaning, um,
I need to speak into their lives that you are valuable.
You are important. God's hand is upon you. God loves you.
He's got purpose. He's got great things in store for you.
(38:47):
And I know you've been told you're worthless. You're nobody.
You're nothing. You're going nowhere. But I want to tell
you the truth, Jesus Christ absolutely loves you. And I'm
telling you, I have not thought about that like that
until this conversation.
S3 (39:03):
I love that, no, I love that people need love.
They need to know the true path of human flourishing.
It's Jesus. It's nothing else that people are offering these
kids in the culture. And so when you're speaking the
truth in love, it's going to it's just going to
feel like life to them. You're going to be speaking
words of life to people.
S6 (39:21):
Mm.
S2 (39:22):
We're talking with Heather Holloman right now. I'd love for
you to give us a call. The number is 87754836758775483675. Hey,
I want to tell you God's hand is on your life.
God has you listening to us right now, and we're
thrilled that you're doing that. So make it a point.
(39:44):
Make it a point to know that God's love is real.
And we want you to receive that love. We want
you to know that this love is an everlasting love.
It's not shaky. It's not milquetoast. It's not wishy washy.
It's the kind of love that you can't even imagine.
But it is real, and it is there for you. Hey,
I'm Roy Patterson. I'm sitting in for Chris Brooks. Thanks
(40:05):
so much for hanging out. Cece Winans is coming up
in just a few minutes. Don't you dare touch that dial.
You're listening to equipped.
S1 (40:18):
In today's rapidly changing culture, Christians need solid biblical guidance
more than ever. That's our mission here at Equip to
provide biblical wisdom for life's toughest questions. When you step
in as an equipper, you're not just giving your monthly
support helps to offer clarity and hope to a confused
and anxious culture, and you'll get exclusive resources and updates
(40:40):
from us all year long. Join our team of monthly
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S2 (40:59):
Welcome back to equipped with Chris Brooks I'm Roy Patterson.
Thanks so much for hanging out with me. Appreciate you.
Heather Holloman is absolutely amazing. Uh, Heather has stepped away
and Cece Winans has stepped to the microphone. We're thrilled
to have this Grammy Award winning, winning woman. And she's
(41:19):
a great woman of God. A man. CC, how are you?
S7 (41:26):
I'm good. How are you?
S2 (41:28):
I'm good. Always good to talk to you. Thanks so
much for spending some time with us.
S7 (41:32):
You got it. Thanks for having me again.
S2 (41:34):
No doubt. No, no doubt about it. Uh, got a
few questions for you. Um, and, yeah, I'm going to
just go straight to these questions. Um, so when it
comes to ministry, you've been doing this. How long?
S7 (41:47):
Oh.
S2 (41:48):
Really? That's that's a tough one.
S7 (41:50):
Over, over. For a long time. Um, over 40 years.
S2 (41:57):
Is that so?
S7 (41:58):
Yeah.
S2 (41:59):
Best advice your parents gave you about ministry?
S7 (42:03):
Live what you preach.
S2 (42:04):
Wow. Wow wow wow. Okay. Most surprising thing about ministry.
And let me qualify that that question. Because what I've
noticed about you, the longevity is there. And it feels
like this This season for you is unlike no other.
I've never seen you this popular, let alone this powerful. Um,
(42:27):
any secrets to the longevity and and your heart that
that says. Wait, you know, wait a minute. I've got
to make sure I stay focused. I've got to stay
focused on what God has for me. Any secrets there?
S7 (42:40):
Oh, yeah. I mean, I think that is the secret
is you got to live in the secret place. What
you got? You got to stay close to him. You know,
what I've learned is that God will always do what
he says he will do. Mhm. Um, my job is
just to stay out of the way. It's to make
sure I'm in prayer. Make sure I'm crucifying flesh.
S2 (43:05):
Yes, ma'am.
S7 (43:06):
Remembering that without him, I'm absolutely nothing. Um. And he
just needs us to be available. He needs us to
be clean and ready for him to use us. Um,
and so that's that, that's the thing that that not
surprises me. But as you walk it out, it just
(43:28):
becomes more and more real that God is all powerful
and and he will do what he says he will do.
But he does give us a responsibility to walk in obedience. Um,
and that's the only thing I'm to focus on. Keep
your eyes on Jesus and let him do everything else.
S2 (43:46):
What I've noticed is, despite all the wonderful awards, the Grammys,
the stellars, the, um, the doves, etc., you focus on,
Christ seems so, so steadfast. Uh, do others come to
you and say, man, I want to have that power.
I want to have that anointing. And if if they do,
what do you tell them?
S7 (44:09):
Yeah. You know, I do get a lot of people
now and again, you look back and because of, you know,
I am at the age I'm at now. You know,
when I started out in this industry, I was a teenager,
you know, and I'm 60. I'll be 61 this year. Um,
so there's a lot of years you don't you don't
think about it when you're doing it. You just you
(44:30):
just every day, you're just like, Lord, give me this day.
S2 (44:34):
Yeah, yeah.
S7 (44:35):
You know, and then you turn around and it's like, wow,
look what God has done. Mm. And so they do
ask me that, especially the younger people. And I'm just
learning that, you know, as I look back, it's in
those mundane moments that, that that changes happen. You know,
a lot of times as young people and myself included, you,
you focus on those high mountain, uh, experiences, you know, uh,
(45:02):
but but it's in those mundane times when you just continue.
There's so many scriptures in the Bible that encourages us
to just continue, continue in the faith, continue to be
faithful at your local church, continue to go to have prayer.
Continue to have your devotions. Continue to fear God and
reverence God. You never graduate from that. I don't care
(45:23):
how many awards you get. I don't care what your
platform turns into. The requirement is the same.
S2 (45:30):
That's powerful. Yeah, it absolutely is.
S7 (45:33):
Yeah. And so that's what I'm trying to. Because. Because
I'm the mother of the church now, you know, I'm
here because of the mothers that went before me. And
I was telling somebody the other day, you don't realize
what is happening because you start out and thank God
that they corrected me. They rebuked me. They loved on me.
They prayed for me. They showed me what holiness looks like.
(45:54):
They dressed properly, you know, um, they could care less
about the world. They were sold out to God. And
it was because of those role models that I had
that I am strong in my faith today. Hands down.
I know that's the reason why. And then I realized,
wait a minute, you're the mother of.
S2 (46:12):
Yeah, you're the one now. everyone's looking at.
S7 (46:14):
You. You. Who are you pouring into? Who are you?
Are you living your life in a way that they
can actually mimic and be doing the right thing, you know?
S2 (46:24):
Well that's powerful.
S7 (46:25):
So yeah, when you realize that shift, then I realize
I have a responsibility.
S2 (46:30):
Well, that's the most important thing. It really, really is. Well,
we're so glad that you decided to hang out with
us for a few minutes. Um. I thank God for you.
Keep going. Got a great song out called come, Jesus. Come.
You guys make it a point to check that out.
I'm Roy Patterson. I'm sitting in for Chris Brooks, grateful
for an opportunity to exalt Christ and to deal with
some of the issues of our day. You, uh, stick
(46:52):
around to this local station, this station of inspiration. I
believe you'll be blessed if you do. Alright. Equipped is
a production of the Moody Radio Network under the umbrella
of the Moody Bible Institute. I love you, I thank
God for you. Gotta go. Until next time. You walk
in grace and peace.
Well. Hey there friends, welcome to another exciting edition of
equip with Chris Brooks! I'm so thrilled that you've joined
us today. Do me a favor strap on your seat
belt as we navigate through the contours of culture, as
always with the lens of the biblical worldview on. But
before we do that, let me remind you, this is
the day that the Lord has made. He is giving
(00:40):
it as a gift so that you and I can
rejoice and be glad in it. So let's do just that.
Let's follow the words of the Apostle Paul. Let's rejoice
in the Lord always. And again I say, rejoice. Today
I want you to help me welcome my good friend
Roy Patterson to the host seat. Roy is a man
of God who has ministered through radio and the pastorate
(01:01):
for decades. He's the host and originator of the Urban
Praise streaming channel, and also host Celebration of Praise and
Music for Sunday here on Moody Radio. Roy, thank you
for leading this edition of equip.
S2 (01:16):
What a joy it is to be here with my
Equip family! It really is the day the Lord has made,
and we're rejoice and we're magnifying God for who he
is and all the great things that he said and
that he's done. I'm grateful for every opportunity to interact
with you, especially about what's going on in our culture,
(01:36):
what's happening in the power of God as the light
of the Lord really knocks back the power of darkness. Hey,
today we've got a wonderful, wonderful guest. Actually, we've got two.
And we'll be talking about conversations and music ministry. Start
off with Heather Holloman. This is a dear, dear sister.
She is an associate teaching professor at Penn State. She's
(02:00):
a speaker. She's an author and serves with Faculty commons
in the professor and graduate student ministry of Cru. Heather,
how are you?
S3 (02:10):
I'm doing well. How are you? It's so good to
be on your program. This is going to be fun.
S2 (02:14):
Oh, it's going to be so much fun. You've written
a tremendous book that I think everybody should read. It's
called The Six Conversations Pathways to Connecting in an Age
of Isolation and Incivility. When you think of conversations, what
comes to mind?
S3 (02:31):
Curiosity. Number one most important word. I've been in so
many social situations where no one asks one question or
you're out on a date with someone. The guy doesn't
ask you one question. You're out with a friend to coffee.
She doesn't ask you one question. Curiosity is the is
the key to great conversations, and it's a way to
really love people.
S2 (02:52):
It's interesting because we've got such a deluge of of information.
You know, we can Google, we can go to AI,
we can hey, hey, Heather, we can go back and
pick up a dusty encyclopedia. And we seem to know everything,
you know. And so it seems like we need to
set all that stuff to the side and say, wait
a minute. I just want to know who you are,
(03:14):
what you do, where you're from, and how life is
treating you.
S3 (03:18):
I love that, and I think you're right. Also, I've
noticed in the culture people are monologuing a lot. My TikTok,
my Instagram is just a lot of people talking at me.
And you're right. Nobody's just sitting down and saying, I
want to learn about you. And my favorite thing in
the world is to ask people, tell me what Jesus
is teaching you. How are you experiencing the Lord? Because
(03:40):
then I learn so much when I just ask people,
how are you experiencing God? So curiosity, just position yourself
to be curious. And my book gives six ways to
be curious about people.
S2 (03:51):
It's fascinating when I talk to people and they're on
their phones, they're on their iPads or whatever it might be,
the androids and and they're looking down and they're not
making eye contact. There doesn't seem to be this connection.
Do you tie that in to loneliness? Do you tie
that into isolation?
S3 (04:09):
Yes. I feel like more and more research is coming
out that these are kind of false forms of connection.
You know, when you're connecting online, you can have, you know,
some connection with people like, you know, I have a
family group chat. I love texting my friends, but nothing
replaces that connection face to face with people where you're
really experiencing community the way God designed. And yeah, we're
(04:32):
seeing an increase in loneliness. The most recent 2020 research
I'm reading says about 57% of the population is claiming
to be lonely. You know, not having meaningful in-person conversations.
So this is a real problem. I mean, the loneliness
epidemic is real. The health outcomes are terrible for loneliness.
So it's really important to address this, you know, from
(04:54):
a mental health and physical health, but also spiritually. God
made us relational. He's a relational God. So I just
feel really passionate about helping people have better conversations. It
can save marriages. It's great for children and grandchildren. I
know you've got four. Yeah, I do know how to connect.
How to connect? How do you ask good questions? How
do you connect with people.
S2 (05:15):
Mhm. Yeah. Those are the right questions okay. So I
grew up you're a lot younger than me. But I
grew up in an age where there were you know
that was part of the entertainment. Just just laughing together.
Talking together. What happened Heather can you just tell us
what happened? How did we become so mean and so
isolated and contentious?
S3 (05:36):
Well, I did the title of the book is Pathways
to Connecting in an Age of Isolation and Incivility. And
I don't know when it actually began. I trace it
back to maybe 2016. I just noticed a lot of
incivility and, you know, people just trying to connect through
hating one another. So it's almost like, wow, they thought,
(05:56):
you know, maybe I can find community by who we
hate or something like that. It was very odd. And
I noticed with my students they began to be very
suspicious and judgmental. So they're profoundly alone. And I would
ask them, well, when you're trying to meet someone, what's
going through your mind? And they would say things like, well,
who did you vote for? What did you believe about vaccines?
(06:17):
You know, what did you believe about Roe v Wade
or are you pro-Israel? Things that are very political, very
divisive in the culture. And I said to them, well,
you know what? If you believe the best about people,
what if you try to learn from people? That's a
different way. That's a different mindset than what I was
seeing in the culture. And that motivated me to write
the book, because I learned if you want to have
(06:38):
a loving connection with someone, it's not just about curiosity.
You have to have another mindset which is really believing
the best about them. And that comes out of Romans 12.
Philippians two. I mean, Romans 12 says to love your enemies,
you know, outdo one another in showing honor. Bless those
who persecute you. Totally different than what we're hearing in
the culture.
S2 (06:58):
I've heard people say, I mean, believers say this. I've
heard them say that they would rather go at somebody really,
really hard than to give them the benefit of the doubt,
to love them, to encourage them. I've even heard people
say they hate people that disagree with them. Um, I'm
concerned about that. I'm praying for people that have this
(07:21):
this mindset. And I really, really think that you hit
hit a nerve there just a second ago when you
said it's not just curiosity, it's an issue of of
trust giving people the benefit of the doubt. Is there
a way for us to get from point A, which
is the point of angry, and get to point B,
a place of benevolence?
S3 (07:42):
Well, two things helped me and set me free. The
first is I really meditated on Philippians two. It says
to value others above yourself. Take on the nature of
a servant. Take on the interests of other people. You
can't do that if you're hating them and believing they're
the enemy. The second thing that God used in my
life was a therapist actually told me, Heather, people are
(08:04):
not the enemy. Satan is the enemy. Oh, boy. So
you're kind of fighting the rhino. That's deep, isn't it?
S2 (08:10):
It is, it is.
S3 (08:10):
I was kind of fighting the wrong battle. And I
thought to myself, you know, there's a whole cultural system,
you know, Ephesians two says, the God of this age has,
you know, think about the idea that there's a ruler
of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is
now at work in those who are disobedient. And you
think about if you're going to live out Romans 12,
you're really ushering in a whole different kind of kingdom.
(08:32):
You know, it's a new way of thinking and living
where you're going to love people radically love those, bless
those who persecute you. It's a really different way of living.
I had to change the most. I was the most
immature in this area and I thought, well, to go
out and love people and believe the best about them,
the first thing that changed was instead of insulting my
neighbor for voting for someone I didn't agree with, I said, look, I.
(08:55):
I can tell that you care deeply about these issues.
I would love to know the story of when you
first started caring about politics. Tell me your story. And
when I was in the realm of narrative instead of
the realm of argument, we actually had a really warm connection.
And that's what the research says is what we're missing
warm connections with people. So get curious. Find out the
(09:17):
story of why people believe what they believe. You're going
to learn a lot. You're going to be living out
Philippians two in Romans 12. You're going to be conformed
to the image of Christ when you do those things.
S2 (09:27):
Mhm. Okay. So you're inspiring me now. I just, I
just I just want you to know that you're inspiring.
S3 (09:34):
Well I'm glad I need it. I need, you know,
my favorite teaching quote is we teach what we most
need to learn. And remember I'm on a college campus.
This is not easy for me to live out every day. No, no,
I do it by the power of the Holy Spirit.
I'm going to love you. Believe the best. I'm going
to learn from you.
S2 (09:49):
Mm. Well, here's here's how you're inspiring me. I'm. I'm
thinking that there is an element of worldliness that goes
with this contention. Rather than me loving you, rather than
me forgiving you, understanding you. Working with you. Relating to you.
It's just easier for me to write you off and
(10:09):
really succumb to the. You know, I have this picture
of a puppet master, and the puppet master is saying, yeah,
don't like them, don't care about them, don't don't agree
with them, don't go along with them. Just, just just
stick to yourself. And everyone who looks like you, talks
like you and thinks like you. And that is really worldly,
(10:29):
isn't it?
S3 (10:31):
Well, it is, and it sounds like pride to me.
That's the problem. It's not a humble spirit, a humble,
teachable spirit. When you're with your neighbors or in your
community and you're thinking, I know more than all of you,
and I'm right and you can't teach me anything, it's
a terrible way to live. I did some research about arrogance.
I mean, there are these pitfalls and conversations, and I
(10:52):
asked my students, you know, what character quality do you
most love in people? And they love this idea of
when you're with a humble person. Yeah. It's wonderful. There's
nothing worse than arrogance. And you know, the way that
Paul talks in Philippians two changed my mind. I mean,
Jesus humbled himself. He took on the nature of a servant.
(11:12):
And when you think about that, what does it mean
to be a servant in conversation? Well, a servant in
a conversation would be wanting to bless people, asking about them,
not making it all about you and how much you know.
S2 (11:25):
You're absolutely right. It really, really is. I cannot wait
to get back from this break. I want us to
talk about what it means to have humanity and look
at the six dimensions of of humanity. You go into
some really great things in your book, and I think
it's going to profit us as we interact with folks
who are like us, look like us, and folks who
(11:46):
are different. And yet we can be blessed, we can
be encouraged, we can be inspired by them as well.
We're with Heather Holloman today, and we're talking about her book,
The Six Conversations. I hope you will stick with us.
I'm Roy Patterson. I'm sitting in for Chris Brooks. This
is equipped.
S1 (12:15):
The enemy loves to take our sexual struggles and build
strongholds to separate us from God. We start believing lies
like we can't go to church anymore or that God
couldn't possibly love us. Surrender Sexuality by Julie Slattery breaks
down those barriers and shows you the path to freedom
without shame and into the welcoming arms of Jesus. We'll
(12:38):
send you a copy with our thanks when you support
equip this month. Simply call 888644 4144 or visit Equip radio.org.
S2 (12:57):
Welcome back to equip equipped with Chris Brooks. I'm Roy Patterson.
Thanks so much for hanging out with me. Hey love
to hear from you. Love for you to talk with
Heather Holloman. Our number is (877)Â 548-3675. That's (877)Â 548-3675. Hey, by
the way, Cece Winans will be joining us in about
20 minutes till the top of the hour. And we'll
(13:20):
have fun with her as well. But I'm thrilled right
in this moment to talking, to talk to this author,
this speaker, this teacher. She's just a wonderful woman of God. Hey, Heather,
I want to talk about humanity. What does it mean
to be human? And I think you've got, like, six
dimensions of it, right?
S3 (13:38):
Yes. And these were six categories that my husband and
I developed because people were having trouble asking questions in
conversations and then asking follow up questions. And we thought
of the six dimensions of what it means to be human.
So in conversation, you've got six pathways. You can ask
questions about social things, emotional things, physical things, cognitive things, volitional,
(14:02):
which is the fancy word for human decisions and spiritual.
And this is a game changer. When you see your friend,
you don't have to say, how are you? You can say, hey,
I'd love to hear about your friends. Who are you
spending time with? That's a social question. Or cognitive? That's
my favorite category of conversation. I love it when my
husband or friends say, Heather, what have you been thinking about?
(14:25):
And a lot of people who get stuck in conversation.
The best question to ask is in the volitional category.
What I advise is give a compliment and say, how
did you decide? So hey, I love those shoes. How
did you decide to get the Hokas instead of the Nike's?
You're going to have a great conversation with people. So
these are the six categories. Yep.
S2 (14:46):
Okay, so you are one of my favorite speakers. And
I say that sincerely because you've always got good, good stories.
And so I want to ask you about and you
can just pick any of them, any of these dimensions
where you were surprised or you were like, huh? I
hadn't thought of that, I hadn't I didn't see that coming.
You got any stories where people have interacted with you
(15:08):
about any of these these these dimensions?
S3 (15:11):
Well, all the time. And what you need to know
is my primary gift is evangelism. So a lot of
people ask me, how are you able to have so
many great conversations about Jesus all the time? And it's
because what's so surprising is how quickly you can get
to gospel conversations. If you just ask like a question
in the physical category. This is really surprising to me
(15:31):
that people love to talk about their bodies. So I
if I'm at the gym, I'll ask someone. I'll say, hey,
you know, say, I just met him, we're talking and
I'll be like, are you someone who has any injuries
you're recovering from? And someone will be like, yeah, I
have a rotator cuff injury. And I'll ask about the
physical therapy. And I'll say, was that really challenging for you?
(15:51):
All of a sudden? We're in the emotional category and
I'm like, how did you handle that? The disappointment of
not being able to go to the gym, and then
when it's my turn to share, I can say something like,
you know, I was really disappointed in that. Just the
way God made me. I do not have a good
knee and I really struggled with that. And then suddenly
we're talking about spiritual things, how God made us. It's amazing. Roy,
(16:12):
just go down any category. So the physical has probably
surprised me the most. People love to talk about physical spaces.
They love to talk about the five senses. If you're
stuck in conversation, ask people, have you tried any new
restaurants lately? Have you tried any new, anything new people
love to talk about? That's really surprised me. The ease
of talking about the physical category.
S2 (16:34):
Have you ever been sort of shook by the response?
And by that I mean just how people are so
lonely and they seem to be so incomplete, and they
look at you and they think, at last, somebody is
interested in me.
S3 (16:51):
This happens all the time, especially with travel. but I
found a really good question that it has led to
people crying in my presence. It has led to people
sending me gifts in the mail. And here's the question.
You're just talking to someone and you say, you know,
I just want to know, you know, what have you
been thinking about lately? What was on your mind most
this week? And the first person I was at the
(17:12):
church info desk and the first man. I didn't know
this man very well. My husband and I were standing there.
I said, you know what's been on your mind this week?
He started to cry. He needed to talk about some
hard things going on with his family, and we got it.
It was just a two minute conversation, but we got
an email the next day and he said, look, that
was the most loving question anyone has asked me all year,
(17:32):
and could we go out to lunch? My wife and
I would love to spend time with you all. The
second thing related to that is if you're with anyone
who's grieving, who's had a lot of hardship, and if
you ask them, just tell me what's been on your mind.
What thought is going through your mind you can't get
rid of? When I asked that question and you allow
someone to unburden themselves, which is Galatians six, carry each
(17:53):
other's burdens. You will be amazed at the warm connection
you feel, how much love they feel from you. A
trauma expert taught me that. That a loving question is, hey,
what thought is going through your mind you can't get
rid of? That is a great question to ask people,
especially if they're in a season of hardship.
S2 (18:12):
Well, it sounds so powerful and it sounds so easy
for those of us. And believe it or not, I
have my introverted side. I'm not completely an introvert, but
I've got that side as well. Is it possible to
step out of that shell and then to engage with people?
S3 (18:28):
Well, that's why my husband, ash, he travels with me
and we do a six conversation workshop, a Warm Connections
workshop together because he's an introvert who's really what he
calls proof of concept. He's actually become such an amazing
conversationalist because he always knows how to start and continue
a loving conversation. And he uses the six pathways. It
(18:49):
isn't easy for him, he tells the crowd he still
has to rely on the Lord and step out in faith,
but it always that warm connection is such a reward
for him, and he doesn't need a ton of them
because he's an introvert like you are. But yeah, he'll
usually start with, um, you know, a question. We call
him spark. Questions like, hey, what kind of new things
(19:09):
have you tried lately? But what's interesting about ash is
he also claims he doesn't have the gift of evangelism.
But using the six conversations and really believing. We wrote
a book together called sent. He's led two people on
our street to Jesus.
S2 (19:24):
Wow.
S3 (19:25):
Just by stepping out in faith in the power of
the Holy Spirit. Just talking to people about God, forming
a warm connection. Introverts love this book because it gives
you a strategy that kind of never fails. The other
reason it's great is if you have a young person
in your life who's interested in professional development. A lot
of research is showing that this is your number one
(19:46):
professional development skill, how to be curious and how to
carry a conversation that leads to a warm connection is
the number one skill young people need today.
S2 (19:56):
Well, it sounds like it's at least two gifts that
are operating right now. And I'm not talking about spiritual gifts,
but sort of a gift you would give to someone.
The gift of talking and the gift of listening. The
gift of sparking, as you said. Can you talk about that?
The talking and the listening?
S3 (20:13):
Well, the most important thing I learned in all of
my research, all the different research articles I read, all
the social science, nobody ever taught me how to listen.
And I learned what to listen for. So when you're
listening to someone, what you're listening for is what's called
core values. Listen for what they talk about. And then
you can say to them as you're talking, I can
(20:34):
tell you really value and then say it to them.
They're going to feel so loved. So I was at
a barbecue on, you know, 4th of July. And I
just was talking and I talked to this woman who
loves Penn State tailgating. And I just said, look, as
you're talking, I can tell you really value entertaining. You
love gathering people together. I said, how long have you
(20:55):
been that way? She felt so loved by this conversation.
And she. I was so honored. Roy, I got an
invite to the tailgate, and that is a big deal.
This is an exclusive party. And I.
S2 (21:07):
Got in.
S3 (21:08):
There. Yeah. So listen to what people care about. If
people are talking about their family or projects or if,
you know, just listen carefully. It's really good with children too,
because when they feel really heard by you, they're going
to feel really close to you when you're like, hey,
I can tell you really value your friends or you
really value, you know, whatever it is. Um, they're just
(21:29):
going to when when you say that to people, it
makes them feel like you've listened, that you really get them.
And it's it's what the research is calling a closeness
enhancing behavior.
S2 (21:38):
Um, you also talk about mutual sharing. Um, talk about
it right now.
S3 (21:44):
Well, if you're curious, you believe the best? You're expressing concern,
which is the three mindsets of a loving connection. That's
not going to be a conversation. That's an interview. You
have to share your life. So mutual sharing means you
know what to share. Now a lot of people don't know. Well,
what do I share in conversations. And my husband and
(22:04):
I really say just be aware of three things. Number one,
what's your major stressor this week? What's the thing on
your mind that you're stressed about? Is there kind of
a thought keeping you up at night that you want
to talk about? Or do you have an upcoming decision
you or your family is trying to make? I like
those three because if I were to say, Roy, what
about you? What's going on in your life? You could say, oh, actually, Heather,
(22:25):
our family's trying to make this decision about this. Then
we're going to have a great conversation. So just be aware,
self-aware enough about what stories you want to share in conversation,
because then you'll have a warm connection.
S2 (22:36):
It seems like it's a me too kind of deal.
You know where you're going through this. Say, hey, me too.
I or I have faced that, or I think I
will face it in the future. Please share with me
right now how you're making it, and hopefully you glean
something and it feels like what you're saying is people
feel they they feel seen. Um, I feel valuable when I,
(22:59):
when I talk to you, not only talk to me
at me, but you listen to me. And that seems
to make a difference, doesn't it?
S3 (23:05):
It does. And I think you know how Jesus just
delights in us so much. And we have the love
of the father. Imagine acting that way with your conversation partner,
that you are just delighted in them. You're letting the
love of the father flow through you to them. So
when they're talking to you, they feel like, oh my gosh,
I'm a delightful person.
S4 (23:25):
I am a loved person.
S3 (23:27):
You know how many of us have had conversations where
we just feel that person is so interested in us
and just delighted by us? And that goes way back
to Dale Carnegie when he said, you know how to
win friends and influence people.
S4 (23:38):
Just be.
S3 (23:39):
Interested.
S4 (23:40):
In other people. It's so.
S3 (23:41):
Simple.
S4 (23:41):
Yeah.
S2 (23:42):
Yeah, I love that, I really do. All right, so
the world we live in right now has this contentious
mindset really. You know. Oh my goodness. Acrimonious. Acrimonious is just, uh,
the middle name of some people. So if I want
to turn the page on that because I've got some
friends who are listening right now, I've got like 100,000
(24:04):
friends who are listening right now who are saying, you
know what, maybe I should put down a sledgehammer and
I should put on my listening ears. Are there some
steps that folks can take to stop being so contentious?
S3 (24:16):
Well, one thing I've noticed is I have a lot
of contentious friends on Facebook or Instagram, but when I'm
with them in person, they're not that way.
S4 (24:24):
Amen.
S3 (24:24):
So one of the things I wanted to say is
you may have an online persona that is a political
pundit or your your online presence is very contentious. So
my best advice is take some time away from all
of that. Unless the Lord is calling you to be
a public protester. Think about just interpersonally warm connections. You know,
(24:45):
you want to think about the goal of this conversation
is not to win an argument, but to have a
warm connection. And that helps me. My goal is not
I'm going to win. My goal is what can I
do to feel a warm connection with someone. But I
do believe that there's a place for public protest. And,
you know, all of those things are important.
S4 (25:05):
In our society.
S3 (25:07):
But interpersonally, with your family, with your neighborhood, with your colleagues.
The goal is not to win an argument and to
help you, I want you to remember this storytelling. Stay
in the realm of narrative, not in the realm of argument.
Get them to tell the story, not argument.
S2 (25:24):
That sounds good. We're going to take a break. When
we come back, we want to hear some more about
how to be an effective storyteller, how to relate, how
to engage, how to deal with these six conversations. What
a joy it is to have Heather Holloman with us today. Really,
really is a blessing. You like to talk to her?
Give us a call at (877)Â 548-3675. That's (877)Â 548-3675. I'm Roy
(25:49):
Patterson sitting in for Chris Brooks. We love that guy.
He is a blessing. Such a great intellect and a
big heart of compassion. Stick around. We'll be back with
Heather and Cece Winans after this. Right here on equipped.
(26:17):
Welcome back to equipped with Chris Brooks. I'm Roy Patterson.
Thanks so much for being with me. You got a
question for you. Do you have questions about your sexuality
that no one seems to address, whether it's sexual sin,
gender confusion, or issues in your marriage? Surrendered Sexuality by
Doctor Julie Slattery has insights that you will profit from.
(26:42):
She'll help you see that God wants you to come
to him with any question that you might have, any
struggle that you're going through. And when you do, I
believe God is able to help you, lead you, and
guide you. Request your copy with your gift of any
amount by simply going to equipped. Yeah. Equipped radio.org that's
(27:06):
equipped radio.org. Or you can call 8886444144886444144. We've got Heather
Holloman on the line. Cece Winans is coming up shortly,
and I'm just thrilled to hang out with you guys today.
I'm Roy Patterson. I've got, uh, we got here. We
got Cathy from, uh, Indiana. Cathy, you've got a question
(27:30):
for Heather. Please go ahead.
S5 (27:32):
Yes. Um, God gave me a real desire to, um,
be encourager. especially for young women. And I've gone out
to lunch with some a couple of times, but I
find that I'm stumped. I don't know what to ask.
I kind of wasn't really socialized with as a kid,
so I kind of was by myself, but I really
(27:53):
want to really encourage them. And I know you gave
some pointers and I missed them and I truly don't.
I literally would just say, how are you? And that
would be just dropped after that.
S3 (28:07):
That's right. Um, first of all, I'm so glad you
asked that question. So many people want to encourage. They
want to be mentoring and they don't know how to
ask good questions. Um, instead of how are you? A
lot of people don't answer that question because the the
weak verb ah is stressful to the brain. Here's what
the next time you go out, this is what you say. Hey,
I want to know what has surprised you most about
(28:29):
your week, or what's challenged you most about your week?
Because then the brain can picture that verb in their
mind and you will get a question. I tried this
out on my teen daughters and I tried it out
in real time in my college classroom. I'll say, how
are you? And they'll say, fine, and the conversation ends.
But if I say, okay, what's challenged you most about
(28:50):
today or what surprised you most about today? They'll go
on and on and on. And then what the beauty
of this six conversational pathways is. Once they answer that question,
you have six possible follow up questions. So if you're
mentoring young woman and you say, oh, what's challenged you
most about this week? Maybe she'll say, oh, I got
a new puppy and I'm doing house training for the puppy. Well,
(29:11):
then what do you say? Well, you have six pathways social. Hey, um,
who else have you been talking to about this puppy?
Or who do you bring in to help train? You
can do a physical question. Hey, have you been getting
a lot of good sleep with this puppy? You know,
you're going to go on and on. Do volitional. How
did you decide to get the puppy? You're never going
to get lost in conversation again.
S2 (29:31):
Hmm hmm. Hey, Kathy, we want you to hold on.
I'm going to send you a copy of Heather's book.
S3 (29:36):
Yay!
S2 (29:37):
Yeah, that'd be really cool. It will be all right.
So don't you hang up. Hold on. Please. All right, so, Heather,
it sounds like we can cut through a whole lot
of generational concerns and boundaries and guardrails by asking questions,
because I know that there are people who are saying, um,
if I ask someone who is my age this question,
they would respond one way. Someone else, not so much.
(30:00):
Can can we use these questions on any and everybody?
S3 (30:05):
Well, yes, there are questions that young people enjoy more. Um,
they love to talk about their friends. If I'm with
a teenager or a college person and I'll say, okay,
tell me about your friends. What's the drama? You know,
whatever it is, they love to talk about music. Like
one of the things I learned is I'll say, hey,
what's on your Spotify on repeat? If they you know,
(30:26):
what that means is what is their most played song?
They love talking about that. I have found a lot
of success giving a compliment about their hair or skin
and saying, how did you get it that way? Like,
oh my gosh, your skin is glowing. How did you
get it that way? I have learned more about skincare
and hair care than I've ever wanted to, just by
(30:48):
giving a compliment to your person. Um, they love talking
and trends, you know, whatever it is. Also, young people
like to talk about what they're. But sometimes I'll say.
A teenager, I have a 13 year old neighbor. She
loves to talk about what's annoying her, I love it.
We have the best time. I'm like, tell me, everything
(31:08):
bothering you at school? And, um, so those work with
older people. I feel like it really honors them. Things
that you're learning about the Lord. Teach me all your wisdom.
It honors them. If you have an older person in
your life, ask them questions like, what do you think?
The most important thing is that I should learn about Jesus?
What is the most important thing you've learned about him?
(31:30):
Just ask questions. You're going to have so much fun.
So young people, social questions. Older people ask them about
what they're learning. Ask them to pass on their wisdom
or their garden or pickleball.
S2 (31:43):
There you go. Exactly. I was just talking to our
producer while we were on break, and she said she
has children who will see somebody going down the street,
and they'll just scream out, hey, I like your dog,
or I like your hairdo.
S3 (31:57):
I love it give a compliment. It's a way of
believing the best. In fact, the Yale Relationship Lab said
one of the number one ways to feel close to
people is to express what's called liking. You have to
tell people that you like them. Tell them, I like
this about you, or I have this memory with you,
or compliment anything that you see. It's actually living out
(32:18):
this idea of being an encourager. Um, you know, I
was really convicted by the Bible verse that says, let
no unwholesome talk come out of your mouth, but only
what is helpful for building others up according to their needs.
S2 (32:31):
Hmm. All right. For that person that's sort of timid.
They're a little afraid. Um, what do you say to them.
Because really they're like, I hardly even talk to people.
I barely look in the mirror. Okay, maybe I'm going
too far with that, but I don't talk to a
lot of people for that person that's afraid. What's your
best advice?
S3 (32:49):
My best advice is get a few questions that you
know work for you every time. So my favorite one
when I see people, if I haven't, I mean, and
this is my husband who's an introvert, just to say, hey,
it's good to see you. Who have you been spending
time with this week? Social question. Um, he loves asking
this question. What kind of day are you having on
a scale of 1 to 10? And then his engineering
(33:11):
friends love that because they love numbers. But whatever they say, like, oh,
I'm having a five. This is the best question. What
would have to happen to make it a ten?
S2 (33:20):
Wow.
S3 (33:21):
Ash uses that in the grocery store. He uses it
at the doctor and he's learned more about people. He'll say, okay,
what kind of day are you having? Scale of 1
to 10? And the cashier says, oh, it's a two.
And I shall say a two meaning, you know, zero
is the worst. He'll say, well, what what needs to
happen to make your day a ten? And the woman
was like, well, I didn't get my coffee this morning.
(33:41):
Well guess what? Ash is like, I got you. What's
your Starbucks order? I'm gonna come get it. You know,
you're just gonna love people. Just ask that question.
S2 (33:50):
I got it. Hey, here's the number to call. You
want to talk to Heather Holloman? The number is 87754836758775483675.
All right, so, Heather, I know you're a Bible scholar.
I know you love the word. You just love the
Lord Jesus. And there's no verse in the Bible that
(34:11):
escapes thee. Amen.
S3 (34:14):
Amen. I love that. I do love the word I still,
I still preach Ephesians two 1 to 10 almost every
morning to myself. I love the word. Do you have
do you have a passage that you go back to
every time? You just love it?
S2 (34:28):
My main verse is Psalm 138, verse eight, where it says,
the Lord will perfect that which concerns me.
S3 (34:35):
Ooh.
S2 (34:36):
Yeah, that's that's my verse. I hold on to that.
All right. So here's my question for you. Now in
the Bible, there's a ton of conversations. And that thought
didn't hit me until just this moment talking to you.
I'm thinking, wow, Jesus talking to the disciples and not
just preaching to them, listening to them interact with him,
(34:57):
how Paul and Silas, you know, interacted. And, uh, this
goes on and on. You got any favorite conversations in
the Bible? Yeah. Do you?
S3 (35:06):
I have three. The first is the conversation in the
garden where Jesus where God asks three questions, you know,
where are you? Who told you you were naked? What
have you done? Those are great questions to like. Hey,
where are you? Where have you been? Who told you? Who?
Who are you authorizing to tell you who you are?
And then what have you done? I just love it
(35:27):
because it's like.
S2 (35:28):
That's three.
S3 (35:28):
Questions. Yeah, we all need to answer those questions for
our own life. I love the woman at the well
because she tries to get him in a theological argument,
and he will not take it. He Jesus goes straight
to the truth. The last conversation I've been focusing on
lately is actually on the road to Emmaus, when he's
walking with the two that don't recognize him. And I
(35:50):
just love every time Jesus asks questions, he he actually
asks people to share what they know. Like, hey, haven't
you heard this or what have you thought about this?
If you look through the gospels, Jesus asks questions in
every category of what it means to be human. And
I love his disposition. Sometimes Jesus is that loving, gentle
(36:11):
presence when he has to be strong and just speak
the truth, he's able to do that as well. It's
hard when you're reading a text because you don't know
what his tone of voice was necessarily right. But I
just love reading those. But I think my favorite is Genesis,
because I think those three questions are the three questions.
When you're thinking of conversations with God and yourself, those
(36:31):
are the three questions you need to ask yourself today.
Where am I in relation to God? Who am I
authorizing to tell me who I am? And then what
have I done that means? Am I aware that I'm
a sinner in need of salvation? And is Jesus going
to be my authority or not?
S6 (36:47):
Mm mm.
S2 (36:48):
That's that's pretty compelling. All right. I got one more
Bible verse for you, the verse that says speak the
truth in love. Typically when I hear that verse, when
I hear that verse, I'm thinking of something that's harsh,
that's difficult, um, sometimes even mean spirited. But our conversation
right now has sort of flipped that for me, and
I'm starting to see it from a different perspective. Give
(37:11):
me your thoughts on that verse.
S3 (37:13):
Well, speak the truth in love. When I think of
the four mindsets of a loving conversation, you're curious, believing
the best, expressing concern, and then sharing your life. If
God invites you to have a moment where you're speaking
truth to someone, it's not going to feel like a
weird pivot or like a sales pitch or some kind
(37:33):
of rebuke. It's going to feel really loving. Yeah. Because
you're you already have a warm connection with that person.
And what the research says is you're moving someone from
a reactive brain state to a responsive brain state. So
when you're speaking something that's true that maybe they don't
disagree with, it won't come off as an argument necessarily.
You'll just be telling them like, this is something that
(37:55):
the Bible says, or this is something I've been thinking
about and you're still having a good conversation with them,
but you're able to maybe correct something that they've said
or speak truth into their life. My husband's much better
at that than I am. He's he isn't a flatterer.
He likes to just speak the truth. But he's worked
so hard on building warm connections with people. I think
that's why he's having so much success sharing his faith,
(38:18):
I think, and people are responding to that. I think
it's because he's able to speak the truth in love.
S6 (38:23):
Mm.
S2 (38:24):
Yeah. I'm fascinated by that, because I think that there
are some people who are starving for the truth. They're
starving for an opportunity to hear something different about themselves. Meaning, um,
I need to speak into their lives that you are valuable.
You are important. God's hand is upon you. God loves you.
He's got purpose. He's got great things in store for you.
(38:47):
And I know you've been told you're worthless. You're nobody.
You're nothing. You're going nowhere. But I want to tell
you the truth, Jesus Christ absolutely loves you. And I'm
telling you, I have not thought about that like that
until this conversation.
S3 (39:03):
I love that, no, I love that people need love.
They need to know the true path of human flourishing.
It's Jesus. It's nothing else that people are offering these
kids in the culture. And so when you're speaking the
truth in love, it's going to it's just going to
feel like life to them. You're going to be speaking
words of life to people.
S6 (39:21):
Mm.
S2 (39:22):
We're talking with Heather Holloman right now. I'd love for
you to give us a call. The number is 87754836758775483675. Hey,
I want to tell you God's hand is on your life.
God has you listening to us right now, and we're
thrilled that you're doing that. So make it a point.
(39:44):
Make it a point to know that God's love is real.
And we want you to receive that love. We want
you to know that this love is an everlasting love.
It's not shaky. It's not milquetoast. It's not wishy washy.
It's the kind of love that you can't even imagine.
But it is real, and it is there for you. Hey,
I'm Roy Patterson. I'm sitting in for Chris Brooks. Thanks
(40:05):
so much for hanging out. Cece Winans is coming up
in just a few minutes. Don't you dare touch that dial.
You're listening to equipped.
S1 (40:18):
In today's rapidly changing culture, Christians need solid biblical guidance
more than ever. That's our mission here at Equip to
provide biblical wisdom for life's toughest questions. When you step
in as an equipper, you're not just giving your monthly
support helps to offer clarity and hope to a confused
and anxious culture, and you'll get exclusive resources and updates
(40:40):
from us all year long. Join our team of monthly
supporters today! Call 888644 4144 or visit Equip radio.org.
S2 (40:59):
Welcome back to equipped with Chris Brooks I'm Roy Patterson.
Thanks so much for hanging out with me. Appreciate you.
Heather Holloman is absolutely amazing. Uh, Heather has stepped away
and Cece Winans has stepped to the microphone. We're thrilled
to have this Grammy Award winning, winning woman. And she's
(41:19):
a great woman of God. A man. CC, how are you?
S7 (41:26):
I'm good. How are you?
S2 (41:28):
I'm good. Always good to talk to you. Thanks so
much for spending some time with us.
S7 (41:32):
You got it. Thanks for having me again.
S2 (41:34):
No doubt. No, no doubt about it. Uh, got a
few questions for you. Um, and, yeah, I'm going to
just go straight to these questions. Um, so when it
comes to ministry, you've been doing this. How long?
S7 (41:47):
Oh.
S2 (41:48):
Really? That's that's a tough one.
S7 (41:50):
Over, over. For a long time. Um, over 40 years.
S2 (41:57):
Is that so?
S7 (41:58):
Yeah.
S2 (41:59):
Best advice your parents gave you about ministry?
S7 (42:03):
Live what you preach.
S2 (42:04):
Wow. Wow wow wow. Okay. Most surprising thing about ministry.
And let me qualify that that question. Because what I've
noticed about you, the longevity is there. And it feels
like this This season for you is unlike no other.
I've never seen you this popular, let alone this powerful. Um,
(42:27):
any secrets to the longevity and and your heart that
that says. Wait, you know, wait a minute. I've got
to make sure I stay focused. I've got to stay
focused on what God has for me. Any secrets there?
S7 (42:40):
Oh, yeah. I mean, I think that is the secret
is you got to live in the secret place. What
you got? You got to stay close to him. You know,
what I've learned is that God will always do what
he says he will do. Mhm. Um, my job is
just to stay out of the way. It's to make
sure I'm in prayer. Make sure I'm crucifying flesh.
S2 (43:05):
Yes, ma'am.
S7 (43:06):
Remembering that without him, I'm absolutely nothing. Um. And he
just needs us to be available. He needs us to
be clean and ready for him to use us. Um,
and so that's that, that's the thing that that not
surprises me. But as you walk it out, it just
(43:28):
becomes more and more real that God is all powerful
and and he will do what he says he will do.
But he does give us a responsibility to walk in obedience. Um,
and that's the only thing I'm to focus on. Keep
your eyes on Jesus and let him do everything else.
S2 (43:46):
What I've noticed is, despite all the wonderful awards, the Grammys,
the stellars, the, um, the doves, etc., you focus on,
Christ seems so, so steadfast. Uh, do others come to
you and say, man, I want to have that power.
I want to have that anointing. And if if they do,
what do you tell them?
S7 (44:09):
Yeah. You know, I do get a lot of people
now and again, you look back and because of, you know,
I am at the age I'm at now. You know,
when I started out in this industry, I was a teenager,
you know, and I'm 60. I'll be 61 this year. Um,
so there's a lot of years you don't you don't
think about it when you're doing it. You just you
(44:30):
just every day, you're just like, Lord, give me this day.
S2 (44:34):
Yeah, yeah.
S7 (44:35):
You know, and then you turn around and it's like, wow,
look what God has done. Mm. And so they do
ask me that, especially the younger people. And I'm just
learning that, you know, as I look back, it's in
those mundane moments that, that that changes happen. You know,
a lot of times as young people and myself included, you,
you focus on those high mountain, uh, experiences, you know, uh,
(45:02):
but but it's in those mundane times when you just continue.
There's so many scriptures in the Bible that encourages us
to just continue, continue in the faith, continue to be
faithful at your local church, continue to go to have prayer.
Continue to have your devotions. Continue to fear God and
reverence God. You never graduate from that. I don't care
(45:23):
how many awards you get. I don't care what your
platform turns into. The requirement is the same.
S2 (45:30):
That's powerful. Yeah, it absolutely is.
S7 (45:33):
Yeah. And so that's what I'm trying to. Because. Because
I'm the mother of the church now, you know, I'm
here because of the mothers that went before me. And
I was telling somebody the other day, you don't realize
what is happening because you start out and thank God
that they corrected me. They rebuked me. They loved on me.
They prayed for me. They showed me what holiness looks like.
(45:54):
They dressed properly, you know, um, they could care less
about the world. They were sold out to God. And
it was because of those role models that I had
that I am strong in my faith today. Hands down.
I know that's the reason why. And then I realized,
wait a minute, you're the mother of.
S2 (46:12):
Yeah, you're the one now. everyone's looking at.
S7 (46:14):
You. You. Who are you pouring into? Who are you?
Are you living your life in a way that they
can actually mimic and be doing the right thing, you know?
S2 (46:24):
Well that's powerful.
S7 (46:25):
So yeah, when you realize that shift, then I realize
I have a responsibility.
S2 (46:30):
Well, that's the most important thing. It really, really is. Well,
we're so glad that you decided to hang out with
us for a few minutes. Um. I thank God for you.
Keep going. Got a great song out called come, Jesus. Come.
You guys make it a point to check that out.
I'm Roy Patterson. I'm sitting in for Chris Brooks, grateful
for an opportunity to exalt Christ and to deal with
some of the issues of our day. You, uh, stick
(46:52):
around to this local station, this station of inspiration. I
believe you'll be blessed if you do. Alright. Equipped is
a production of the Moody Radio Network under the umbrella
of the Moody Bible Institute. I love you, I thank
God for you. Gotta go. Until next time. You walk
in grace and peace.
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