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June 23, 2025 • 47 mins

We are living in a time when the world desperately needs an example of unity in the midst of diversity. The Body of Christ can be that example if we clearly understand our mission.  Author and professor Dr. Walter Strickland takes your calls about how to build Kingdom Diversity so we can shine a light in our struggling world! 

Today's Resource: For God So Loved the World: a Blueprint for Kingdom Diversity

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Episode Transcript

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S1 (00:15):
Please enjoy this encore edition of equip with Chris Brooks. Well,
hey there folks, welcome to another exciting edition of equip
with Chris Brooks. I am so glad you tuned in today.
I hope you're having a great day. Why don't you
strap on your seat belt? We're going to navigate through
the contours of culture, as always with the lens of
the biblical worldview on. But before we do that, let

(00:38):
me remind you, this is the day that the Lord
has made. He has given it as a gift so
that you and I might rejoice and be glad in it.
So let's do just just that. Let's follow the words
of the Apostle Paul. Let's rejoice in the Lord always.
And again I say rejoice. And with that I welcome you,
my friends, into what will be hopefully a very encouraging

(00:59):
and exciting edition of equip. I want to start by
saying thank you to all of our friends and partners
who help to make equip possible each and every day. Uh,
through your gifts and your prayerful support of this ministry.
If we've been a blessing to you, if you've enjoyed, uh,
the wisdom, the resources and the gas that you hear
every day here on Equip. We would love your support

(01:21):
as we go forward. You know, there's a generation that
needs to be reached with the gospel. There's a generation
that doesn't want us to run from, but wants us
to run to the tough conversations. There's a generation that
needs a safe place to explore the questions they have
about Christ, about the gospel and the way it applies
to life, but wanting to know what the Scripture say.

(01:44):
And I hope and pray that you have been tuning
in long enough to know that we have, uh, we
strive every day to be that type of place, a
place in which Scripture can help to provide a guide
for us on how we should live our lives in
a way that honors Christ, uh, in a way that serves, uh,

(02:06):
human flourishing and reaches our neighbor with the gospel of Jesus.
And so if you want to support and be a partner,
please call the number now 888644 4144. Two ways you
can support a one time impact gift. Always so grateful
for that. And this month or you can become a
monthly partner. We call those good folks Equippers. You can

(02:27):
do that today. Dial the number 888644 4144. If the
Lord's been speaking to your heart, now's a great time
for you to do that today. We're going to have
part two of a very important discussion that we started
a couple of weeks ago with a great guest. Uh,
Doctor Walter Strickland on what the Bible has to say

(02:49):
about diversity. You know, it's interesting, as we look at
the New Testament, how God calls the church to be
born in a time in which there is this, this
small initial group of a band of brothers, Jewish followers
of Jesus, that are then told by our Lord and
Savior to go into a very diverse world and to

(03:11):
make disciples of the ethnic groups of the world, the
the nations, as our translations will have in English. They're
they're called to go into the nations and make disciples
of men. Well, this very command is a call to
diverse churches, local bodies of believers that represent all types

(03:33):
of cultural distinctions, from class to gender to to race
and ethnicity. And how were were this group of people
going to demonstrate the power of Christ, the power of
the gospel to reconcile men to God and man to
one another? How are they going to worship and work
and walk together in Christian love, uh, as a result

(03:56):
of their faith in Christ? Well, the whole New Testament
explores that, and we need to revisit what does the
Bible tell us about Kingdom diversity in our day and age?
And I'm really grateful that in addition to the New Testament, uh,
There is a wonderful resource I can recommend. It's a
blueprint for Kingdom diversity entitled For God So Loved the World,

(04:18):
co-authored by Walter Strickland, the second and Dayton Hartman and
Walter is with me today. He serves as associate vice
president for Kingdom Diversity Initiatives and assistant professor of systematic
and contextual theology at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. And he's
my guest today. Walter, how are you?

S2 (04:41):
I'm doing well, brother. I appreciate you having me on
Pastor Chris. It's a joy to be with you.

S1 (04:45):
It is always a privilege to have you. And we
we covered so much ground. And I do want to
commend our first conversation, uh, to our listeners. But just
by way of recap, give us an overview of, uh,
why you and Dayton and your fellow contributors, uh, felt
this project was important. And give us an overview of

(05:05):
the the layout of the project.

S2 (05:08):
Definitely, definitely. So what we understand is that in the Bible,
we see that God's passion for a multicultural people is evident,
even from as early as the commission of Abraham, to
go to all the peoples that were scattered from the
Tower of Babel. And we see how this manifests in
the book of revelation, in revelation five and revelation seven,
where all tribes, tongues, and nations are gathered around the

(05:30):
throne of God, crying out to his praises. And then now,
as Christians, we ought to do our best to give, um,
sort of previews of this kingdom reality even now, uh,
to the best of our ability. And what we understand
is that the problem with, uh, racialization in our country
is so deep that there needs to be some resources

(05:53):
about how to engage this, um, this really complex issue. Uh,
for people who want to actually make some progress on this.
And so what we've done is we've gathered several of
our several authors and who have a lot to offer, uh,
the body of Christ. And we have the first section,
which really allows us to understand what the nature of
the history of race and racism in America are. And

(06:16):
we do that not just to rehash the troubles of
the past, but to really diagnose, in particular, what's going on.
Being a doctor that says more than just sin has,
you know, taken effect on your body, but to say, hey,
it's this particular kind of sickness. So that so now
we can treat it, which is what part two and
part three are. Yeah. So in part two we talk
about the public witness of the church and how the

(06:37):
church ought to look out, um, you know, from its
walls into society as a, as a balm of restoration.
But then in part three we say, okay, what does
this look like within the bounds of the church? How
do we become a people? Uh, and create churches and
parachurch ministries that serve all of God's people?

S1 (06:56):
I love that. And, you know, in our first conversation,
we spent most of our time talking about, uh, history.
Reflecting on that. And again, I use the analogy of
a couple, a marriage. A married couple that you know
there so often. The reality of a couple that has
had pain or trauma to their marriage. Oftentimes you'll find

(07:18):
a husband. And this is an overgeneralization, but often you'll
find a husband who just simply wants to forge forward
to apologize and move forward and say, how can we
reconcile and make the best of our days ahead? And
a lot of times as a pastor, I'll have wives
who'll say, well, before we can go forward, we need

(07:39):
to understand and we need to process through the hurt
and the pain of the past. And I think so
often this is the case when we're having the discussion
about diversity and the history of both successes and times
and seasons where we have not reflected the gospel well
within the church in America in this particular area. And

(08:00):
so we spend a lot of time talking about that and,
and how that applies to our contemporary moment. But I
want to talk about this whole concept of corporate witness,
because I believe, Walter, Doctor Strickland, that we one of
the things that plagues America often, uh, is that the
American church is that there is a hyper individualism that

(08:22):
causes us, as we read the text, to miss things
like corporate witness. And in your introduction to your book,
you say this, the church's collective witness either clarifies or
obscures the gospel of Jesus Christ and the hope of
John's vision in revelation seven and nine. What do you
mean when you talk about collective witness? Corporate witness? Uh,

(08:46):
either clarifying or obscuring.

S2 (08:50):
So I would imagine and I would pray that if
people saw the church, the people who were not church folk,
who were not Christians, they would see the people of
God worshiping. And they would I would hope that they
would be they would be forced to have to say,
there's something going on over there that's not going on here.
And as Christians, we obviously know that the the gospel

(09:12):
is at play. Uh, there's a gospel, you know, uh,
that that takes down this dividing wall of hostility, that
men's brokenness and what have you. And we know it's
that we know that's what it is. But but the
but the question I continue to raise is, is that
do our churches and do our parish church ministries and
so on and so forth, uh, speak truly of the gospel?

(09:35):
Or does our testimony of, you know, having churches that
are racialized, being that, you know, it's common in America
for black folks and white folks and Hispanic folks and
Asian folks and doesn't, you know, just to name a
couple of demographics to worship in isolation from each other.
And so my concern is, is that people who are
not Christians looking to the church don't see much different

(09:58):
than what they see outside of the church as it
pertains to this particular issue.

S1 (10:02):
Yeah. And I would take it a step further and
say that sometimes it actually is a step behind what
they may see in other areas. For example, in corporate America,
you often see diversity. You see businesses understanding the importance
of reaching different markets of people if they're going to
have business success. You often see that in sports teams

(10:25):
understand in athletics that, man, we have to have some
diversity here. And I think that the church definitely wants
to lead and not lag behind as it pertains to
showing the unity and the reconciliation that is possible through
the gospel. But again, going back to, uh, pressing a
little bit further, Doctor Strickland, on this hyper individualism. I

(10:48):
think that part of the challenge is that we haven't
been taught to think corporately. Obviously, we should reject on
the hyper extreme collectivism. I think we are individuals. Right.
But yet within Scripture, there is a call of connectedness
that I, my actions as an individual member of the

(11:12):
Body of Christ do reflect. It does reflect on you.
Your actions reflect on me, in particular in the local
church context. That's an important concept to understand, isn't it?

S2 (11:25):
It is, it is. And I think that what we're
getting at as well is that, you know, if we
understand that, if we understand that we are persons, individuals
in community, we understand that our that our lives both
you know, it can it can be, you know, our
individualism can be assisted by a community that's diverse, where
we have people of different perspectives helping us to see

(11:47):
the world appropriately. But but if we surround ourselves with
people who are just like us, it makes us see
the world very narrowly, which is not seeing it truly.
And it sort of hardens us to the fact that
we think that this is the only way in which
to see the world, and then it actually does more
of a disservice. So, so we're a bunch of individuals

(12:08):
who are in a collective but are collective, is very
narrow in our in our emphasis and focus.

S1 (12:14):
Yeah. And I think this comes back to understanding the value,
the importance, the call of church membership and the way
we see the local churches, not simply as fan clubs
for the same preacher or the same choir or the
same program, but covenant communities. You keep referring to the
term community. Uh, talk about how our view of ecclesiology

(12:38):
may play into this. Walter.

S2 (12:41):
Yeah, definitely. You know what? I think that covenant membership
in a in a local church is so important because
we ought to be very sold out to fulfilling these
one anothers of the New Testament to one to another.
So this this is what I often say. I say,
imagine if we treated our marriage covenants with the same,
you know, openness that we treat our, our, uh, our

(13:02):
covenant communities at church with. Then the second we feel misunderstood,
the second we feel like, you know, someone's not listening
to us or we're not the center of everything, then
we just give it up. That's not how we. That's
not how, uh, mature Christians treat their marriage. And because
of that, they're they're sharpened, they're stretched, they grow together,
their love is deepened for one another. And because of that,

(13:26):
there's a more faithful testimony to Christ in the church.
And I think that we have that same we also
have that same level of commitment one to another. So
in the local body of Christ, that commitment to each
other ought to drive us to to love each other well,
to hear each other, even if your experience is not
my experience. I'm hearing my brother or sister who's hurting

(13:49):
and bearing each other's burdens, as Scripture calls us to do,
as we're sharpening each other like iron, as Proverbs says.

S1 (13:55):
And I'm going to say Amen to everything you just said.
And I'm just going to add one thing to that too,
and that is for those who feel they're hurting. You
don't just bail because you feel you're hurting. And I
think that far too often it is so tempting to say,
I'm going to break off from the local church and
formulate covenant community around social movements of common grievance, and

(14:18):
I think that that is equally as dangerous as not
hearing your brother. It is simply bailing. I remember Walter
when my wife and I, 23 years ago stood at
the front of that church and we said all of
our I do's, right? And afterwards I remember having a
conversation with my wife saying, divorce is not an option. Uh,

(14:38):
we're in it for the long haul. And praise God.
God is by his grace kept us together. And I
pray that there would be churches that would say that
to one another. Uh, that divorce is not an option.
And I'm going to do my best to honor you,
and you're going to do your best to honor me.
And there may be times when we're misunderstanding one another hurting,

(15:01):
but we're going to work through this together as the
and let the gospel be our guide. Uh, listen, we
gotta take a short break. When we come back, we're
going to delve deeper into, uh, kind of the scope
and sequence of, uh, Walter's book. But it really is
a blueprint for us for how to experience kingdom diversity.
Now we'll talk about how you can experience in your

(15:22):
personal life and how you can experience in your local church,
and how the local church can be a witness to
a watching world. Join the conversation at 8775675. Much more
to come. Next up, the Bible offers victory over sin
and Satan. But even strong Christians can feel discouraged or

(15:43):
even distant from God, if that's where you find yourself today.
May I encourage you to get a copy of Still
Standing by Lina Abujamra. Lina has walked this road and
knows that suffering isn't in the detour. It's often the
very path God uses to transform us. We'll send you
a copy of Still Standing when you support equip this month.

(16:05):
Simply call 888644 4144 or visit Equip Radio. Org. Chris
Brooks here reminding you that today's program is pre-recorded and
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(16:26):
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(16:47):
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(17:07):
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(17:29):
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(17:49):
so if you could please stand with us at 88644 4144.
Maybe you're listening today and you have been processing through
the the entire conversation that's happening in our culture about
diversity and ethnicity and race and in so many confusing

(18:10):
voices and so many ungodly and secular messages. And you're saying,
I just want to, as a Christian model, the love
of Jesus Christ. And you're wondering, how do I do that?
How do I cut through the noise and the and
the shouting and the divisiveness and the vitriol? And how
do I just model the love of Jesus that's in

(18:30):
my heart and that I see in Scripture. Well, Walter
Strickland has written a great book For God So Loved
the world, uh, that I would commend to you. And
that's what we're talking about today. Maybe you're, uh, processing
questions in your own personal life or within your local church, uh,
that you like for us to give you wisdom on

(18:51):
the phone number. If you want to join the conversation. 8775675.
That's 877548 3675. Or if it's easier, go to our
social platforms and leave your comments and questions there. Walter,
I want to just talk about diversity and its importance
on two levels. One in our personal lives and then

(19:15):
secondly in our local churches. Let's start in our personal lives.
What should be the goal there and how do we
experience healthy and diverse relationships and and maybe kind of
to to give context to that, does the Bible even
call us to that? What's wrong with me not interacting
with people who are different than me?

S2 (19:36):
You know, I really do think that, uh, what we're
missing out on is an opportunity, as I mentioned before,
to sharpen ourselves. And this is the thing, I think,
that we think that the Bible is, uh, sort of
pushing them. Just, hey, just be somewhere, be where you're
comfortable and not be stretched. But I think Scripture is

(19:58):
is the author of Scripture, is the Scripture is very clear,
the divine author, that is, of saying that to be
amongst people who are different, it's going to cause, you know,
these rough edges begin to rub up against each other.
And but because of that, we are going to be sanctified.
We are going to have to put on Christ in
new ways, to be patient, to be slow, to listen,

(20:20):
to be those who are empathetic with each other. And
so people in a multicultural environment are yes, there's a
witness to Christ publicly, but also it does something to us.
And so my motivation for being within and putting myself
within a people, that is, of every tribe, tongue and

(20:40):
nation to the best I can in my, in my
community is, is because that personally, it sharpens me. It
makes me more like Christ because I have to exude
characteristics of godliness to to participate in an environment like that.
And so, you know, I would encourage folks practically to
displace yourselves to, to put yourself in places where you

(21:04):
are not a majority voice because it helps you to
it challenges your assumptions about things like Scripture or even
just other assumptions that we have, like we're individuals or
even other, you know, things that we just see as
so normative or even, you know, in justifying them in Scripture,
it really doesn't allow us to assume anything. And it

(21:26):
clarifies the gospel and those realities, because no one can
get any sort of cultural baggage in and under the
guise of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And so displacing ourselves,
putting ourselves under the leadership of people who don't look
like us is such an important practice for us. Because,
I mean, I think we we begin to see in

(21:46):
our blind spots, and sometimes we think we have to
go to Tokyo or some far off land to do that.
But even here in America, we can still do that
by getting into places where it will force us to
see ourselves as as we are.

S1 (22:00):
Yeah, I love the fact that I get a chance to,
with my church family, get a chance to see the
world through their eyes, and they get a chance to
see the world through my eyes. And we grow as
a result, as we study Scripture together from different lived experiences.
Being able to see richness in the texts that maybe

(22:22):
would have been missed because, let's be honest, our cultural
experience does influence and shape the way we read the
text and part of the way that we, um, maybe
resist the pitfall of being culturally captive in the way
that we read Scripture is by being in diverse groups
of disciples so that we can read more faithfully. I

(22:44):
do want to just reference this, Walter. Second Corinthians five
and 20. Uh, you know it. It is familiar. It says,
therefore we are ambassadors for Christ. God making his appeal
through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be
reconciled to God. I think there's a second benefit to

(23:04):
us having diverse relationships. And it seems to me that
that second benefit is that we have the ability to
model the power of the gospel. Maybe, put another way,
how can we call people to be reconciled to God
if the gospel can't reconcile us to one another? Is
that part of it? Walter.

S2 (23:26):
Yeah, that's that's definitely part of it. Because if we have, uh,
the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, then we should be
able to, you know, overcome these divides, these divides that
stand up between us. And even if they are man
made divides that have taken root in our culture, that
have placed us into these ruts that divide us. I mean,
if anybody ought to be able to do this, it's

(23:49):
the people of God. And so I really do think
that that testimony is part and parcel to what it
means to not only be justified to God, but then
had the capacity to be justified to each other. And
you and you mentioned, I think, before Ephesians two, and
that the first half is talking about new life as

(24:09):
an individual. You were dead. And verses one through three
and then going through verses eight and nine, you know,
we're made new. But then, uh, he then applies it
first to an ethnic divide between Jew and Gentile. And
so the people who are made new in Christ are
now the ones who are able to be those who
bring about peace and put to death hostility, which we

(24:32):
read about in verses 15 and 16.

S1 (24:35):
Yeah, I think that's beautiful. Let's talk about the local church.
We've referred to it already, but in many ways our
local churches will not be more diverse in our personal
lives quite often. And so it starts in our personal lives.
But as we think about the local church, uh, Walter, uh,
why is it important that we see diversity within the

(24:56):
local church as we gather publicly to worship?

S2 (25:00):
Yeah. So, you know, I really do love how we,
you know, talked about how we were sharpened, uh, personally. But,
I mean, it's fantastic to to see that snapshot of
God actually bringing people together. But then it not only
ends there because, you know, when people come together, those,
those stumbling blocks are going to be there. But what

(25:22):
happens in corporate worship is that, you know, we have
these issues that we have to tackle, but sometimes we
just look across the table or across the living room
and say, man, I don't even know if we can
move forward with these tough issues. But then you set
them aside for a moment. You recalibrate yourself by worshiping together,
not separately, but together. And then you sort of reorient

(25:45):
yourself around Christ. Being renewed in the spirit together. Celebrating
what you, uh, you know, what you have in common
and what your primary identifying marker is, which is Christ.
And then you have a renewed ability to be able
to tackle those things that want to keep us apart
because of our nation's history and so on. So I
think that is so important.

S1 (26:05):
Yeah. So beautiful, so powerful. Phone number 8775675. Join the conversation.
Much more right after this. Chris Brooks here reminding you
that today's program is pre-recorded. While we won't be taking calls,
we do want to connect with you on social media.

(26:27):
Welcome back to equipped with Chris Brooks having a fascinating
conversation about the importance of kingdom diversity within the body
of Christ and our personal lives and our local churches
for the purpose of public witness to a watching world.
I want to also invite you to join the conversation
with myself and Doctor Walter Strickland concerning his newest book,

(26:49):
For God So Loved the World. You can get a
copy by by going to our website at Radio.com. There
you can find information about ordering. But I want to
encourage you to do so. We have to rise above
the simple, uh, divisiveness or arguments that are happening in
our culture around this. And sometimes, let's be honest, even

(27:09):
within the church, uh, we're more focused on where we disagree.
Instead of locking arms on where we agree, this book
calls us together towards that. The phone number, if you
want to join the conversation with your questions is 8775675.
That's 877548 3675. Walter, I would love to just give

(27:33):
you the opportunity to express your heart about your hopes
of the church having a different and distinct voice in
this hour as it pertains to, uh, much of the
painfulness that you see in conversations around diversity and unity.

S2 (27:51):
Yeah. You know, we have talked a lot about the
local church, and I think that's so important because I
think what people assume is that we would that we
just want people who are different to be in the
same worship space because it looks nice, but it's far
deeper than that. We've talked about the impact on the individual.
We've talked about the renewing power of worshiping together. But also,

(28:14):
I mean, as we are together bearing those burdens, it
actually changes how we do mission together. So the way
that we look outward facing from the church, because now,
you know, if we have a multicultural church, we are
going to be working to demonstrate the gospel on behalf
of the brokenness that's felt throughout our church, not just
in one particular group. And so it really does allow

(28:37):
us to, uh, to, to to link arms. And there's
and there's ways in which I am strong and my
brother is weak, and there's ways in which my brother
or sister is weak and I am strong. I think
I might have messed that up, but I think you
guys get what I'm saying. You know, we need each
other even as we're, we're we're doing ministry outward facing. Because,
you know, there might be times where I have a

(28:58):
relationship that can catalyze the witness of Christ, and then
someone might have the resources to sort of back that up,
or vice versa, or they might have know how. I
guess what I'm trying to say is that as we
are sensitized to each other's needs, will then be more
likely to see those needs outside of the church, and
our heart will be broken for them more easily. And,

(29:21):
you know, because we've already seen the pain and the
grief that happens like that up close with our brothers
and sisters whom we deeply care about. And so as
we begin to interact as ambassadors for Christ in society,
it really begins to change the areas that we apply
the gospel. And I think that's very important. And another
reason why I would like to see, you know, people

(29:44):
from different backgrounds worship and minister together.

S1 (29:47):
You know, there's another part of this, too, as I
look at your title, Walter, the book For God So
Loved the World, based off of John 316, the most
famous passage of the New Testament. For many, I think
about the challenge that it presents to you and to
me as disciples of Christ, who are modeling our lives
after the Lord that we serve, that if God loved

(30:09):
the world, what is my circle of love look like?
And what does it look like to expand my circle
of love? I think we all know who our parents,
what it's like to have a little one when they're
an infant. Their circle of love is pretty tiny. It's
pretty small. It's just them, right? And it's really cool
as a parent, when you see that circle of love

(30:30):
expand and they begin to reciprocate love and affection towards you,
and it's really cool to see it expand to them
loving their siblings, right? And I know every grandparent out
there is is excited when it expands to loving grandma
and Papa. And I got a teenager now and I've
seen her Circle of love wall to expand now to

(30:53):
friends that are outside of our home, uh, where she's
wanting to hang out with them and do life with
them and spend time with them. Uh, friends that are
in her church, small group, friends that are in her school. Well,
as I think about the call of the gospel, acts
one and eight, I think about how it challenges us to, uh,
challenge those early disciples to love those who are close

(31:14):
to them in Jerusalem, those who are further from them
in Judea and Samaria, uh, ultimately to the uttermost parts
of the earth. Man, that's a pretty bold and radical
call to expand your love to not only, uh, those
that are, uh, different than you, but those who may
even be opposed to you, because ultimately, we can't love

(31:37):
our enemy until we begin to love those who are
different than us. Walter.

S2 (31:43):
And that's precisely correct. I mean, even as we're talking
about I mean, I read my I read the story
of Jonah to my kids the other night, you know,
as he was called to go to those who are
different from them. And he was so, you know, against
taking the good news that there's a God who loves
them to them because they didn't deserve it in his
mind and all these other excuses. But the Lord has

(32:03):
given us that now as a New Testament church, that
acts one and eight paradigm and the love acts one eight,
because it really gives us an answer to the people
who say, well, but but what if my church is
in a neighborhood that's 100% of one race or one ethnicity?

S1 (32:19):
Yes.

S2 (32:19):
To which I would say, well, yeah. Yeah. You know,
so I would say, well, obviously for those ideally, you know, our,
our local church will look like our communities. But if
your community is fairly homogeneous. Well, the local body does
interact in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the ends of the earth.

(32:41):
And so even if that community is very similar, you
can get busy worshiping Jesus and ministering in your state
or even on the national level and even around the world.
And so what that does, it allows us to place
an emphasis on groups that are outside of ourselves. And
so if I'm a Christian who lives in a fairly

(33:01):
homogeneous environment, or a pastor who's pastoring a church in
a 100% of one demographic context, I would be sure
to preach and teach and to read my Bible, to
see that God loves everybody, and then to extend the
ministries of our church to people who are outside of
our city, who are in our state, and who are,

(33:23):
you know, taking national mission trips and even international mission trips,
and really focusing a lot of our resources and energy
and prayer and monetary resources to furthering not just the
ministry at our local church address, but, you know, to
the ends of the earth.

S1 (33:39):
Yeah, 100%. And I you know, I agree with you again.
Phone number 8775675. That's 877548 3675. There's another chapter in
your book that I really want us to touch on.
And that is the chapter written by D.R. Horton, who's
been a friend and a guest on this show several times.

(34:01):
Apologetics in the 21st century. And I think that he
hit something that is very important and that is and
his opening line, he talks about where there are disparities, racism,
urbanization in America. What ends up happening is that all
too often, church goers, uh, look outside of the church

(34:22):
to find answers to life's situational questions. Talk about what
happens when we don't achieve that. um, type of, uh,
beautiful mosaic multi-ethnic reality within our churches when it comes
to solving the real lived challenges that many face.

S2 (34:45):
You know, I think that's a great question because I
think we actually belittle those problems. Uh, number one, or
we look to those problems in a very superficial way.
So if I'm in a, an environment where the, you know,
and it's not and it's not representative of anybody outside
of it, but the problem that someone's facing is beyond

(35:08):
that group. We oftentimes resort to artificial things that are helpful,
like books and articles, but even worse, you know, blogs
and Twitter and TikTok and things like that to sort
of get answers to those questions. But the reality is,
is that those are research and reading books and things
like that, and reading articles that should be a precursor

(35:30):
to or a supplement with engaging with actual people. Because
if we haven't engaged with them, we don't understand the
depth of the problem. We'll simply have a book knowledge
of the problem. And so, um, I think as far
as apologetics goes, I think that until we really begin
to see the depth of the issues that are opposing Christ,
and in that particular chapter, we even begin to talk about,

(35:52):
you know, uh, uh, different, you know, um, religious belief
systems that have opposed Christ. But until we are with
those people, we really can't understand the depth of the
pain and the and the and the anxieties of the
movement so that we can't apply the gospel directly to it.

S1 (36:09):
That's so critical. And I think it's really important for
us to understand that it really does open a door
while Walter to outside and aberrant philosophies and, you know, someone,
you know, as someone who did urban ministry for 20 years,
pastored a church, uh, in inner city Detroit for 20 years.
One of the things that I saw is that when

(36:31):
the church had a failure at addressing with a full throated,
gospel centered, uh, answer the social problems that many face,
then the door began to be open for other groups
to come in. The Nation of Islam, Moorish Science Temple,

(36:52):
Five Percenters all of these Hebrew Israelites began to have
greater voice, uh, that the gospel should feel.

S2 (37:01):
That's exactly right. And, uh, I know that your readers,
your listeners are aware, but if you want a good resource,
there's a book called Urban Apologetics by Christopher W Brooks
that addresses that.

S1 (37:13):
That.

S2 (37:13):
Issue as well. But but yeah, I do think that, uh,
engaging social issues, those those wounds that I keep referring
to really does allow people to say, okay, I sense
that this gospel that those Christians are about is one
that heals things. One that redeems things. And then after
they begin to sense that that's a part of our story,

(37:36):
they're going to start listening for it. And at that moment,
as we're meeting those needs, as we're sort of trying
to heal the wounds as best as we can in
all of our fallenness and in our in our in
our limitations. But even in our trying, we can begin
to proclaim the one who will ultimately fulfill and heal
those wounds, who is Jesus Christ. And so it really

(37:57):
allows us in that service, in meeting those social needs,
to give an answer for the hope that's within us.
But if we don't proclaim the gospel, we're simply, you know,
another sort of social community group. But if we only
proclaim the gospel with no action, then we're just a
clanging cymbal. So they both have to come together.

S1 (38:14):
Yeah. And let me just say this. I do think
that it's really important how we go about meeting those needs.
You talked about not just being some social community group.
I think it's important because I know there's a lot
of folks who are listening right now saying, man, I
want to meet those needs. I want to get involved.
How do I meet those needs? I think, Walter, what
your book encourages us to do is to meet those

(38:36):
needs from the context of relationship. These healed, reconciled relationships
will ultimately allow us to do it. Not in a
paternal way, not in a way that perpetuates pain or dependency,
but in a mutuality relational, relational context seems to be, Walter,
the best blueprint or pathway.

S2 (38:58):
I couldn't agree more because as we get to like
since the the the issues that people are facing in relationship,
we begin to understand a fuller scope of the problem
and not just the definition of the problem that's written
on paper and things like that. And so as we
do that, we can begin to identify what the real

(39:19):
problems are, because sometimes if you're new to a context
and you're looking at symptoms, you might think that that's
the essence of the problem, but really it's just a symptom.
And there's something beyond that that must that must be healed.
And so in relationship, it gives us the time and
the space and the longevity to begin to, to see
past those initial things that we might pounce on and

(39:40):
try to tackle when there's really something that's more substantive
behind there. And then as we are seeing what the
crux of it is, we begin to interact about that
with people who are different than us. And then we
all have our, again, our different resources that we can
steward and leverage on behalf of ridding that problem, because
we all have different things to bring to the table again.

(40:01):
So sometimes relationships, sometimes it's, uh, you know, funds, sometimes it's,
you know, just, uh, knowledge of the situation. We all
bring something to the table as those who are laboring
together and ministering together as a people of God.

S1 (40:14):
We're going to take a break. When we come back, Walter,
we're going to talk about repentance and forgiveness. Why? Both
are essential for reconciliation. Don't go anywhere, folks. If you
want to order a copy of For God So Loved
the World, you can do so by going to our
website at Quip radio dot oh, that's equipped radio.org. At

(40:41):
equipped is our goal to strengthen your faith. And we're
always excited as we hear stories of people coming to
faith as a result of our program, but we couldn't
possibly accomplish this mission alone. That's why we're looking for
equippers and people just like you, who will give a
monthly gift to help us keep this program on the air.
Would you consider partnering with us? Become an Equipper today

(41:02):
and receive special insider benefits, such as a bi weekly
email that contains pastoral messages prepared just for you? Call
888644 4144 or go online to equip radio org. Today's
program has been prerecorded so our phone lines are not open.
Welcome back to Equipped with Chris Brooks. Want to encourage

(41:25):
you to pick up this wonderful resource for God So
Loved the World, written by Doctor Walter Strickland. You can
also learn more about Walter. Follow him on Twitter if
you're there. I always preface it this way, Walter, if
you're not on Twitter, don't get on Twitter. But if
you are on Twitter, follow the right people. And Walter

(41:46):
is one of those people that you can follow. And
just about every day I'm encouraged by you posting a
reminder from Scripture of the type of people we ought
to be and the wonderful God that we serve. And
so I'm grateful for those who use social media for
the good, and so grateful for that. But again, you
can order a copy of the book by going to

(42:08):
our website Equip radio Equip radio. There's a lot more
in the book. We have yet in two conversations to
get to the relationship between men and women. Uh, that's
an important piece of it. Do you want to just
say a quick word on that?

S2 (42:22):
Yeah. You know, um, if we wanted to have a
conversation about how God loves the world and how God
and how we can create churches and ministries that, uh, serve, well,
you know, both men and women and people from every ethnicity.
The conversation about, um, you know, gender has to be
a part of the book. And so there are three, uh,

(42:43):
there's two chapters and then an appendix that begin to
talk about how it is that, you know, uh, the
body of Christ, both men and women, can serve as
partners in ministry. Uh, but but it does it does
insist that, you know, that I believe that that God
has made us to be complementary to each other. But
what in our in our desire to be complementary one

(43:04):
to another as far as how the male and female
interact both in the church and the home, we sort
of overshot the runway to ensure that we are, you know,
having sort of male headship in many churches, uh, that
I've seen. So what the book tries to do in
that regard is it really tries to, uh, you know,

(43:24):
reimagine how we see our sisters in Christ as partners
and genuine partners in ministry and really begins to encourage
us how to think about that theologically and how, uh,
sort of works through the ministries of the local church.

S1 (43:37):
Yeah, those are really good chapters. And I would commend
those who are very, uh, thoughtful about that, wanting to
make sure that they affirm, uh, the, uh, the worth
value and, um, and joint giftedness of our sisters in
Christ that want to be able to start from a
place of where we can celebrate God's, um, guidance and

(44:00):
wisdom concerning, uh, how we work together as men and women.
I would really commend those chapters, but I want to
just talk about, in all of these areas, be it
male female relationships, uh, multiethnic relationships across class, category and distinction,
those relationships, there's going to be times where we reflect
the gospel well. Times when we blow it. When we

(44:22):
blow it, there's woundedness. Talk about what repentance and forgiveness
has to look like for there to be reconciliation.

S2 (44:30):
Yeah. And this is where it gets tough. You know,
I really do think that folks want to, uh, see this, uh,
picture of revelation seven manifest, you know, more and more
in our local churches and even in our personal relationships.
But I think this is the part where it really begins.
It begins to get personal because, uh, what we have

(44:51):
to do is, you know, if you've been feeling the
backside of this, uh, difficult narrative in our history and
even how it manifests in the church, you know, there
comes a point where we have to stop dealing each
other blows, and we have to someone has to absorb
the blow. And I think we should all choose to
sort of absorb, you know, at some point this blow

(45:12):
and say, you know what? Because someone has absorbed the
blow for me and that person is Jesus Christ because
he was the one who was, you know, um, you know,
scourged and and beaten for our transgressions and sin, for
the sake of giving each and every one of us life.
And so I think, especially for people of color, that's
going to be a very challenging thing, but something that

(45:34):
we have to have spiritual fortitude to be able to do.
So I talked to my grandmother and she, uh, was
a faithful she is a faithful Christian. And she marched
with Doctor King and what have you. And she was
consistently saying that, Walter, if you're going to do this work,
you have to press into Christ. Is your Bible worn out?
And are your knees calloused from praying or else you

(45:57):
won't make it? And then also, uh, to being able
to ask forgiveness, you know, and forgiveness, even for the
subtle things or the subconscious things or the unintentional things
that have been done because they deal real wounds as well.
So those in the majority culture, that's definitely something I
think we need to be begin to pray about because

(46:17):
there are things that you've participated in, said and done
that were very hurtful. Yet you didn't know it. And
so as you've been forgiven by your by people around you,
then you can, you know, kind of move forward in
that way together. So these two things, repentance and forgiveness
are so important for this conversation.

S1 (46:39):
We are called to love God and to love neighbor and, uh,
it through faith in Christ, through the wisdom of the gospel.
We can do that. Well for watching world. Walter, thank
you so much for joining me for part two of
this awesome conversation about this phenomenal resource for God. So
loved the world, folks. Get your hands on a copy
of this great book. Go to Equip radio. Can't wait

(47:02):
till we're together again next time. Until then, as always,
remember equip with Chris Brooks is a production of Moody Radio,
a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
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