July 2, 2025 • 47 mins
Someone has said that the one thing you can count on in life is change. We all face times of transition; some are good and some are bad. It is HOW we navigate these seasons that often contributes to our future success and the fulfillment of God's purposes in our lives! Dr. Michael Lindsay combines sound science with Biblical wisdom to help us maximize those pivotal points of life. Don't miss this insightful conversation coming up on Equipped!
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Hinge Moments
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:15):
Please enjoy this encore edition of equip with Chris Brooks. Well,
hey there friends, welcome to another exciting edition of Equipped
with Chris Rocks. I am absolutely thrilled that you've joined
us today. Why don't you do me a favor? Strap
on your seat belt. We've been praying for you. We're
going to navigate through the contours of culture, as always,
with the lens of the biblical worldview. But before we
(00:37):
do that, let me remind you. This is the day
that the Lord has made. He has given it as
a gift so that you and I can rejoice and
be glad in it. So let's do just that. Let's
follow the words of the Apostle Paul. Let's rejoice in
the Lord always. And again I say, rejoice. That is
the Word of Scripture. And I pray that that is
the heartbeat of your life. God is good and we
(01:00):
need to remind ourselves of that even and maybe especially
in seasons of change, how do you navigate successfully seasons
of transition and change when you're sensing that God is
compelling you to move maybe to a new city, maybe
to a new opportunity, maybe to into new relationships. Uh,
(01:24):
how do you navigate that? Well, uh, we're going to
talk about that. You know, recently I read a study
that was produced by the Wall Street Journal that speaks
to the fact that in this particular year, companies across
our country have had an unprecedented amount of employees who
have transitioned, uh, transitioned to new roles or even out
(01:47):
of the company to new companies. And, uh, that just
really provoked me to think about what I have seen
in my own personal sphere of relationships, network of relationships.
So many people are in what is called hinge moments
of their lives. Moments in which life is changing. Pivot moments,
(02:09):
if you will. And I want to help you to
navigate through that. Some of you are again discerning that
God is provoking change. Some of you, it's not so
much a matter of discernment, but just change is happening
and being thrust upon you, and I want you to
navigate that well. So I invited someone who I have
(02:30):
a tremendous amount of respect for. I'm a huge fan of,
from a distance, Doctor Michael Lindsay, uh, Doctor Lindsay is
a is a president of a college, Taylor University in Upland, Indiana.
He previously served as president of Gordon College. Uh, he
also is a sociologist. Uh, he has done tremendous research,
(02:56):
talking to leaders across sectors about how they lead, about
the essence of leadership. And now, in his newest book,
Hinge Moments How to Make the Most of Life's Transitions. Michael,
how are you today?
S2 (03:11):
I'm doing fine. Thanks so much for having me on, Chris.
S1 (03:14):
It is so good to have you on. It's great
to be with you. I know this has been a
world wind of of change in this season, in your
own life. Before we get into the book, how are
you and your family doing through Covid, through all that
the last 12 months have presented to us?
S2 (03:35):
Well, thanks. We are excited about beginning a new chapter
at Taylor University, a wonderful Christian university in Indiana. Um,
after having a wonderful time for ten years in the
presidency of Gordon College in Boston. Covid 19 was an
interesting challenge for all of us in Christian higher ed,
but I'm so proud of what happened at both institutions. Uh,
(03:58):
very low positivity rates, terrific compliance. You know, our students, uh,
love the Lord, and they love one another. And so
it would it's not surprising that they would be, uh,
great examples for the rest of the higher ed community,
and I'm also hopeful to be able to see how
the Lord is going to use this societal wide hinge
moment as we move through the recovery, and we begin
(04:21):
to get further toward the end of the tunnel. And
in the process of that, hopefully the Lord can use
it for his greater good.
S1 (04:29):
Yeah, well, I'm glad to hear that you're doing well,
and I know many of us who have appreciated your
work are certainly celebrating the fact that you are continuing
on in leadership in the post that you're going to
be taking on and looking forward to the the things
that lie ahead. But let's talk about your most recent book,
(04:50):
Hinge Moments. I know you put a ton of research
into your books. Talk a little bit about what this
book is about and how it came into being.
S2 (05:00):
I spent about ten years of my life interviewing senior
leaders in American society, and produced what is the largest
study of leaders ever done. I interviewed former Presidents Carter
and Bush, cabinet secretaries like Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rice,
as well as the CEOs of 250 of the largest companies,
including 20 of the fortune 100 CEOs, and the presence
(05:23):
of every major nonprofit in the U.S., including the presence
of Harvard, Stanford and Princeton. What I was really trying
to figure out is what had been important milestones in
their life, and how did that in turn shape the
person that they became and the way that they led?
While working through that multiyear research project? I just became
convinced that that so many of these individuals had really
(05:45):
navigated big changes in their life effectively. As a college president,
I want to do everything I can to help equip
my students to be successful over the long haul. So
I started writing the book, thinking it would be advice
for college students on how to make wise decisions. But
in the process, I realized it had an opportunity for
a much wider readership, including people you know, middle age
(06:06):
or older that are thinking about how do they make
good use of the time the Lord has given them?
And all of that led to what became hinge moments.
S1 (06:14):
I want you to maybe expound upon the statement that
you have in your introduction up under the section what
are hinge Moments? You say this there are particular moments
in our own lives that we realize sometimes in a flash,
that something has to change. It's going to change whether
we like it or not. You go on to say
(06:35):
what follows these instances will depend depend intrinsically on the
decisions we make and the actions we take. These are
hinge moments, opportunities to open or to close doors to
various pathways of our lives. Those are profound words. Expound
upon that.
S2 (06:57):
Well, the average American has given 37,000,000 minutes of life.
But each of us, if we look back on our
own life, can say there's probably somewhere between 12 and
20 individual minutes that had a disproportionate impact on the
rest of our lives. The minute you're born, the minute
you come to faith in Christ, the minute you meet
(07:17):
your spouse, the minute your first child is born, the
minute you have your first serious professional setback, the minute
that you lose a loved one, these become significant inflection
points in our life. What I found is that all
of us experience these, but not everybody prepares adequately for
them or is thinking about them. Well, change happens to
(07:40):
us in a moment, but transition is a process that
takes weeks, months, sometimes years to navigate. And the book
is designed to try and help people think about those changes,
prepare for them so they can respond more effectively when
they invariably come.
S1 (07:57):
I want to talk about how we navigate these seasons,
but you say this again in your book. For all
of us, there's only one thing that remains the same
the fact that nothing does. How much is navigating successfully
through your hinge moments is just embracing the reality that
(08:17):
comfort is an illusion and that everything changes.
S2 (08:22):
Well, most of us fear change because we think it's
going to entail a sense of loss. And I guess
that's probably true in some grand way that every change
does involve gains and losses. But most of us learn
how to regroup and how to respond and how to
rebound from those losses. And most of the time, the
(08:45):
changes that come along become milestones where the Lord really
does extraordinary things. Frederick Buechner is a pastor and author
who wrote a statement that really stood out to me.
He said something to the effect of even the saddest
things in life, once we have made peace with them,
can be sources of strength for the journey that still
(09:06):
lies ahead. And I really think that that's probably true
for all of us, that if we can think about
how we might respond to those changes, whether it's, you know,
your job is eliminated or your wife says, we need
to move to California. All of these become moments for
transition that could end up having a very positive long
(09:27):
term effect. But we've got to be ready for it.
We've got to be prepared for it.
S1 (09:31):
So when you look back over the past year, Michael,
and you consider Covid, it's it's obviously a hinge moment.
It's a huge societal hinge moment for for so many. Again,
the type of thing that you said change is going
to happen whether we like it or not. Do you
see it as a good thing or how do you
(09:52):
see it? Do you see it in an adversarial way?
How should we see it?
S2 (09:57):
Well, let's let's remember that 1918 was the outbreak of
the Spanish flu pandemic. The most significant public health crisis
in the last hundred years. 1929 was the start of
the Great Depression, the economic upheaval that had ripple effect
around the world. And 1968 was the year of racial,
political and cultural upheaval that has stayed with us ever since.
(10:21):
The last 12 months have been like 1918, 1929 and
1968 all rolled into one. And so I think it
is incredibly important for the church, for those of us
who are Christ followers, to say, we've got to steward
this moment well because it's a once in a generation experience.
But I'm also hopeful I get to work with college
(10:43):
students every day, and I'm very hopeful for the way
that the gospel can have a positive impact, not just
in the church, but also for the common good.
S1 (10:53):
You talk about the fact in your book how transitions
shape us. How have your transition shaped you from going
from what you describe as your dream job, as on
the sociology faculty at Rice University to this wonderful tenure
at Gordon College. Uh, to now, another hinge moment as you, uh,
(11:17):
traverse and travel the road to Taylor.
S2 (11:21):
Well, I certainly never dreamed when I got my PhD
that I would eventually serve as a university president in
New England and the Midwest. I'm originally from the South, so, um,
living in these different parts of the country has been
an adventure for me. But I'm so grateful that the
Lord has expanded my horizons and has used opportunities that
(11:42):
have come along to not just affect my life, but
the life of my girls, my wife, uh, our family
is so much richer and better. Having met fellow believers
and having the experiences of living in a different part
of the country. So part of what I want to
try and do with the book is to just encourage people.
Change happens to us. Some of it is by our
own choosing, some of it is by the choice of
(12:04):
somebody else. But all of us can choose how we
respond to the change. And throughout the Bible we see
examples of the faithful who embrace the change that the
Lord brought into their life, and even the difficult moments. Remember,
Joseph says, what others may have meant for evil. God
meant for good. Ours is a God who redeems even
the hard things. And that's the great news for all
(12:26):
of us.
S1 (12:27):
When we come back, we're going to talk about some
of the stages of transition, how transitions define us. My friends,
there are a few key moments in life in which
your whole life is defined by, hinges upon, and is
changed by. We want you to be ready for those
moments and to navigate those moments well. And so in
(12:49):
order to do that, I'm highly recommending you get your
hands on a copy of Hinge Moments making the most
of life's transitions. We're all in it. All of us
are in a hinge moment in human history, some more
acutely living into it on a personal level. I want
you to land on the other side of the door,
(13:11):
swing in the place that God has called you to be.
So find out more at our website. Equip radio.org. Michael
Lindsey says this that the study of leadership is the
science of transition, the study of the science of transition.
We're going to talk about what that means more on
(13:31):
the other side of this break. As always, we're going
to give away some complimentary copies of our guests book.
And part of the way we do that is through
social media. So today we're going to pick five names, uh,
from individuals who join us on social media, uh, that
we will, uh, give a complimentary copy of Hinge Moments
(13:52):
to Justice, a thank you for listening to the program.
So why don't you do me a favor? Go to
Equip Radio on Facebook and Twitter. Join us there. It
allows us to keep the conversation going, and to invest
in your life in a way that equips you to
more effectively live, share, and defend your faith. We'll be
right back with more from Michael Lindsey on the other
(14:14):
side of this break. Next up on equip. Do you
have questions about your sexuality that no one seems to address,
whether it's sexual sin, gender confusion, or issues in your marriage?
Surrender Sexuality by Doctor Julie Slattery has insights you need.
She'll help you to see that God wants to be
(14:34):
invited into your questions and struggles. And when you do,
everything changes. Request your copy with your gift of any amount.
To equip, simply call 888644 4144 or visit Equip radio.org.
Chris Brooks here reminding you that today's program is pre-recorded
(14:57):
and we won't be taking your calls. Welcome back to
equipped with Chris Brooks. Michael Lindsey is my guest. We're
discussing his newest book, Hinge Moment Making the most of
Life transitions. Maybe you're in the midst of transition. Uh,
this is a gift to you. To me, that Michael
Lindsey has written for the world. Why don't you go
(15:17):
to our website, Equip radio. I believe it'll be a
great encouragement to your heart. You can find out ordering
instructions there. Uh, one of the pages that's often overlooked.
Of every book that I find to be most fascinating. Michael,
is the dedication page you dedicate this book to Davis, Herman, Kurt,
(15:38):
Rebecca and William. You call them wonderful partners for navigating
life's hinge moments. Who are they and why are they
so important?
S2 (15:48):
Well, that's so special. I never get asked about that.
So Davis Metzger was a student body president at Gordon,
who worked in my office as a presidential fellow, and
then came and joined my president's office team, and he
helped me in drafting the manuscript and was a great
conversation partner through the whole process. Kurt Hecker and Herman
Smith were the two board chairs at Gordon College during
(16:10):
my presidency, and both of them walked alongside me through
a variety of different hinge moments, both for the institution
and for me personally. William Hagen is a trusted colleague
who graduated from Gordon, became my chief of staff and
at Gordon, and he's now serving as vice president for
strategy and chief of staff at Taylor. And then, of course,
my wife, Rebecca, who's been the greatest partner through the
(16:33):
last 26 years of married life.
S1 (16:36):
It tells me a lot. It tells me that to
properly navigate through hinge moments, you need a team, don't you?
S2 (16:44):
Indeed. Yeah. We rely upon our family and friends the most,
because oftentimes those hinge moments come at seasons of real
leaving one community and then eventually joining another one. And
in those in-between times, you really depend upon the close
friends and loved ones.
S1 (17:02):
I don't know which part I love most about your writing,
the descriptive portions of the prescriptive portions. Let's talk a
little bit, though, about the prescriptive. You walk us through
seven stages of transition. Can you give us a quick
introduction of that?
S2 (17:19):
Yeah. So just as there are five stages of grief
I found in my research, there's seven stages of transition
even before you fully know changes afoot. There's something within
our spirit or our hearts that begins to sort of stir.
I describe it as the butterflies that are in our stomach.
And in the book, I tell the story of a
couple of different butterfly moments of my own journey of
(17:42):
sensing that God was calling me to step away from
the Gordon presidency, a job that I had loved and
thought I would do for the rest of my life
and be open to doing something else. Though I didn't
know what that was or where it would be. And
so we anticipate some of these changes and begin to
discern that maybe God is calling us to do something different.
Then we get to sort of the low point. I
would describe it in terms of your confidence. Um, it's
(18:05):
a season of self-doubt and frankly, oftentimes a little bit
of depression or sadness called the intersection phase. When you're
really betwixt and between, you're sort of in the threshold.
You've left your old place, but you haven't joined your
new place. But then gradually you begin to get acclimated
to your new community. You begin to develop some relational
ties and get sort of connected with that. And eventually
(18:28):
that leads to a full integration with your new community
or your new life. And then eventually you realize, in
the grand scheme of things, the Lord actually used all
of the the challenges that you went through on that
journey to make you into a stronger, more faithful disciple.
So it's seven stages of transition that take you from
sort of where you're starting down to a low point
(18:50):
and then back up to a high point that's even
higher than where you started. And I found consistently, no
matter who I interviewed, all 550 leaders that I interviewed
went through this experience. And it resonates with my own
journey over the last year as well.
S1 (19:05):
Let's talk about maybe a story from the discernment phase.
I want to read a quote, though, from your book.
You say there are at least three kinds of change
we face or changes. Rather, we face those we wouldn't choose.
But we can see coming, those we choose ourselves, and
those that flood our homes at two in the morning. Yeah.
(19:28):
So when you talk about that, talk about maybe a
story or so that sticks out to you about the
discernment phase.
S2 (19:35):
Well, so the allusion to the flood is I tell
the story about how my childhood home was flooded when
the reservoir in our hometown of Jackson, Mississippi, reached a
breaking point. And the mayor had to make the very
difficult decision to open the floodgates, realizing that he was
going to flood about one third of the city, but
(19:56):
that if the floodgates had broken, it would flood the
entire city. And so my house, in the course of
about six hours, went from being perfectly dry to having five,
six feet of water in it. And oftentimes, you know,
those kinds of things happen instantaneously. And so you have
to be able to sort of respond, um, based on
(20:18):
the spiritual disciplines that you developed and the character that
you've developed up to that moment, I say that you can't,
you know, really rely upon these hinge moments to be
the moments when you develop your character. You're just sort
of responding on instinct. So these kinds of episodes, tragedies
don't develop our character, they just reveal it. And so,
(20:41):
so much of what we have to do is be
ready by developing those kind of spiritual disciplines, just as
you would go to the gym to work out your muscles.
So also you need to develop spiritual disciplines to work
out your soul.
S1 (20:53):
You highlight the fact that it's hard though. So why
is it so hard? Why would you, um, you know, uh,
define these transition moments as moments that feel like you're,
you're abandoning, uh, something.
S2 (21:11):
Well, I think for most of us, we are so
afraid of the negative side of change that we actually
become overly cautious. And I tell in the book, you know,
some interesting social science research that shows that most of
us are so risk averse, we actually miss out on
a number of great opportunities and blessings that the Lord
(21:31):
would like to bring into our life, but we're too
afraid to take the step of faith. And so what
we have to what we have to do, in essence,
is develop the kind of character, like the character character
of the people in the Bible who were willing to
embrace whatever it is that the Lord has for me.
I'm ready to be open to it.
S1 (21:50):
What did you learn from talking to Doctor Steven Levitt?
S2 (21:54):
Well, Steve Levitt is part of a larger sort of
network of researchers, which is really talking to us about
the importance for us to not rely too much on
our own intuition or trust, but instead to be willing
to take more risks. The book is really sort of
an encouragement for Christ followers to be willing to take
(22:17):
more risks and to say, you can sort of step
out on faith and you can get an opportunity to
go into the next phase, or to be willing to
undertake something that may seem difficult or hard, but through
it you develop a sense of perseverance.
S1 (22:30):
But I have to imagine, and you highlight so much
of your story in the book, but there are also
opportunities that you have turned down along the way. I mean,
the opportunity to join the wonderful institution of Taylor, uh,
was a unique opportunity that you sense was right and
(22:51):
in the next step for you. But how do you
know when it is time to say yes or when
it's time to say no?
S2 (22:59):
Well, there's an interesting thing. So I announced to my
board of trustees at Gordon in October that I was
going to step away from the presidency at the end
of the academic year. And they responded wonderfully supportive and
tried to, you know, I was getting text messages and
phone calls, people saying, are you sure you really want
to do this? But I really felt led by God
that it was a step of faith, and it required
(23:21):
an act of obedience on my part. But then, you know,
it's now October 15th, and I've announced to the world
and people would say, well, where are you going? And
I have no idea. You know, I'm not sure what
I'm going to do. And I think people had suspicions
that I had some master plan, but I didn't. I
was just really asking the Lord to guide me. So
I began talking with people, praying and. And in the end,
(23:43):
I was very blessed. I have three different pathways available
and each of them would have been exciting. Good pathways.
And I would have, you know, could have had a
very fulfilling life in those. But I did feel like
that the Lord really guided me in a particular moment
of decision. I had a particularly sleepless night, um, when
(24:04):
I was weighing the opportunity to go to Taylor, and
I had never had that before or since. It turned
out that the board of trustees at Taylor had been
praying about my candidacy that very evening, and one of
the trustees prayed that if God was calling me, that
God would do whatever it took to get my attention,
even if it meant keeping me up all night. Don't
(24:25):
let him get a wink of sleep. And when I
heard that story, I realized, wow, the Lord is in this,
and I've got to be responsive. So not every day
do we get those kinds of signals. But ours is
a God who wants to answer our prayers. He wants
to meet us at our place of need. And so
I think as we turn our lives over to the
Lord and ask him to guide us. He'll do it
(24:47):
in exceeding measure. And I certainly found that to be
the case in my own sense of calling to Taylor.
S1 (24:52):
Wow. You know, I have a similar story in my
life as well on how I ended up in in
my current role pastorally leaving the church that I pastor
for 20 years and now at a new church. Loving
the journey. Grateful for the spiritual family here. But I
jokingly will say after hearing your story, someone may be
(25:12):
losing sleep because they're not responding to the prayers of
another person, so the quicker you respond, the better you'll sleep.
I'm so grateful for your transparency. We got to take
another break. When we come back, we're going to talk
about the powerful and important role of mentors in our lives. Uh,
why was Gandalf so important in the life of Bilbo?
(25:35):
What about Obi-Wan? Uh, why was he so important in
the life of Luke? All of us can think of
these mentors. without which we would not have been able
to navigate change. Do you have true mentors in your life?
We're going to talk about that and much more. The
book Hinge Moments making the most of Life's transitions. I
(25:56):
encourage you to get it now, not only for yourself,
but maybe for a leader, a young adult, someone in
transition that you know and you love. Why don't you
be a blessing? Go to our website. Equip Radio.com ordering
information there. We'll be right back right after this. Chris
Brooks here reminding you that today's program is pre-recorded. While
(26:19):
we won't be taking calls, we do want to connect
with you on social media. Welcome back to Equipped with
Chris Brooks. So grateful for all of you who listen
and support the program. Today's conversation is with Doctor Michael Lindsey.
Doctor Lindsey has been the president of Gordon College. He's
also been on the sociology faculty at Rice University. Presently,
(26:42):
he is preparing for his next post as the President
of Taylor University. Really excited to have him on as
he discusses his work. This platinum study of leaders and
how hinge moments define our lives, and how we can
make the most out of the transitional moments of our lives.
(27:02):
Doctor Lindsay, we were talking before we went to break
about mentors. Why are mentors so important and invaluable in
this transition process?
S2 (27:12):
You know, I found in the lives of all the
leaders that I interviewed, so many of them really relied
upon older advisors, counselors, mentors who gave them words of encouragement,
words of wisdom, and help them to navigate the big
changes that occurred. And I certainly have found that to
be true in my own life. Each of us rely
upon a handful of people who have gone before us,
(27:33):
who can help encourage us, but also show us the way. Oftentimes,
mentors can prod us to, to take new pathways, or
they can help walk alongside us when the hard times come.
S1 (27:46):
Yeah, I'd love for you to just spend a moment,
if you could, to just talk about what it was
like to have coffee with with George Gallup.
S3 (27:54):
Well, George Gallup.
S2 (27:55):
Was an amazing mentor and friend. Um, the story is
that I was in seminary and had thought that I
was going to do a internship working with a group
of missionaries who served the diplomatic community at the United Nations.
But at the last minute, they basically called and said,
you know, we just we think the Lord is telling
us this is not what we should do. And so
(28:16):
we're not going to we're not going to have you
as our intern. And I was just devastated. And I
told my wife it was the end of the year,
and I was desperate to find somebody and I didn't
know what to do. And I had met Mr. Gallup once.
I knew he was a Christian. And, uh, he he
was working in my, you know, where I was living
in Princeton, new Jersey. And she said, why don't you
(28:37):
call him and just see if he would ever consider
taking you on. And I gave her every reason in
the book of why that was a stupid idea, including
the fact that he would have to be my direct supervisor.
And I couldn't imagine asking George Gallup to take on
a seminary intern, but also because I just, you know,
I said, well, he's got to pay me, and it's
going to be very difficult. I can't imagine that it
(28:57):
would work. But I was, you know, in many ways
I was sort of desperate. I didn't have any other
good options. So I finally called up mr. Gallup and
asked if I could buy him a cup of coffee.
I didn't tell him what was on my mind, but
when we got together, I told him my dilemma and
asked if he had any work that a, you know,
a young seminary intern could help him with. As it
turned out, he had a book project that he was
(29:18):
working on at the time, and he said, maybe you
could help me write the book. Now, when he told
me that I had a certain vision of what co-authoring
a book would be like, and it turns out, you know,
I was more of a research assistant, and I ended
up writing 95% of the book. But he was so kind,
he allowed me to be listed as a co-author. And
it really began my sort of journey in both social
(29:39):
science research as well as as an author and speaker.
So it changed my life, and it really occurred over
a cup of coffee when I asked George Gallup and
took a little bit of a risk. He said yes,
and we developed a mentorship that continued on for many,
many years afterwards.
S1 (29:54):
That's fascinating to me. And you never know, right? That's
part of the risk taking of life. And many people
right now should be praying for a mentor and maybe
taking the risk to grab a cup of coffee, to
extend a question or invitation to deepen a relationship. You
(30:14):
never know what's on the other side. You know, earlier
I asked the question, when shouldn't we leave? And I
found this comment in your book to be pretty profound.
You say never cut important ties to people or organizations
simply because of your own irritation or short term bad experience.
S2 (30:33):
Yeah, I think that that's right. Part of that is
just advice my mom always gave me of not burning bridges,
but also part of it is the experience of leading
an institution. And I can just say oftentimes people assume
that they know the full picture behind, you know, frustrations
or difficulties they've experienced, when in fact, there's a whole
(30:56):
lot that goes into what happens at institutions, and many
times the frustrations that people feel are legitimate, but they're
not the full picture. And so you just don't want
to assume that you've got the full picture because you
may not. And in the end, you may be cutting
off a relationship that the Lord wants you to continue
to have. I think it matters a lot that we
(31:18):
end well wherever we are. And this is true not
just for taking on new jobs or moving, but it's
also how we, you know, navigate relationships. Um, I think
it's quite instructive. One of my friends who was pregnant
at the time she was reading my book, talked about
how the nine months of gestation getting ready for your
(31:38):
baby's arrival, in many ways, is walking you through these
different phases of hinge moments because you're a first time parent.
I mean, it's a scary proposition. The life that you've
known in the past is not going to be the same.
You're excited about the baby's arrival, but at the same time,
it doesn't entail a sense of change. All of these
become ways in which we sort of develop the kind
of virtue and wisdom and character that will serve us
(32:02):
well over the long haul. And part of that is
keeping those connections with people who have been important in
different phases of your life.
S1 (32:09):
I want to make sure that those who are listening
know that this book is so accessible. I'm holding it
in my hand right now, and you would think that
the wisdom that Michael sharing this would be a 500
page volume book and easily could have been, uh, maybe
the greatest miracle of it all is how you reduce
(32:30):
all of that study, all those interviews, down to a
book of about 150 pages, roughly. But that's what it is.
And I love the fact that it's 150 pages because
it's accessible, it's practical, but it's so full of wisdom
on how to navigate through the changes of life. Well,
and so it may be a book that I could
(32:52):
see being read individually, but certainly I could see it, Michael,
being read in a group, a group study that could
really help to make all the difference in the life
of those who are navigating not only currently through a
hinge moment, but no one is on the horizon. Um,
let's talk about this next phase, Michael. And I think
(33:12):
it's really important. The landing phase. So. So after you've
gone through, uh, the emotions of discerning and anticipation and intersection,
ultimately you do find your new your new place, your
new step, that new opportunity, that new relationship. How do
you navigate through that season? Well.
S2 (33:34):
I think it's vital that we try to be very
attentive to the importance of developing and strengthening new relationships,
learning people's names and faces, being more curious about the
people you're meeting than they're curious about you. You know,
it's some of the basic manners that our parents teach
us as a young kid, but sometimes we forget as
we get older. It's important that you really take a
(33:56):
vested interest in others and help them to see that
you care for them, and you're looking forward to getting
to know them in a meaningful way. And I find
that throughout that process, the Lord uses us to help
get connected, develop relationships that will serve us well in
this next season of wherever he's called us.
S1 (34:13):
Out of the leaders you interviewed, who do you feel
like really embodied that?
S2 (34:18):
There's a lot of intentionality among a lot of people. So,
you know, I think that I tell the story of
Oprah Winfrey, who has a very interesting journey whereby her
start in daytime television really came as a result of
being fired from, um, serving as the evening news anchor
in Baltimore. And, you know, she has amazing, uh, emotional
(34:43):
and relational intelligence and is able to make connections with
people really quick. Not everybody can be Oprah Winfrey, but
each of us in our different giftings can be intentional
about developing relationships. And that's kind of the key message
is to say, you know, all that we're about at
the end of the day is about connecting with other people.
(35:03):
We are created for relationship. And so using the hinge
moments as a way of developing and deepening relationships is
pretty important in the whole framework.
S1 (35:12):
How do you avoid making false assumptions about the new
place because you step through the door? You obviously have
your first impressions of them as they have their first
impressions of you. You probably have some input from the
narratives of others on the place or the people. How
(35:33):
do you look ahead without falling into the trap of
false presumptions?
S2 (35:38):
Well, that's a really astute observation. I do think you
only get one chance to make a first impression. So
you really want to be thoughtful about how you come
across and how people get to know you. At the
same time, we don't want to put too much stock
in first impressions because oftentimes our judgments are not exactly accurate.
So you've got to develop that over time. And I
think the Lord does that in our lives and gives
(35:58):
us a chance to sort of discern people. But you
got to hold it loosely. In the book, I talk
about how often recent college grads sort of have an
image of their first, their first major job, that it's
going to be this ideal role when in fact most
of our first jobs are not that great. You know,
they have some elements of things that we enjoy, but
(36:20):
in every job there's stuff that you don't enjoy. So
don't make quick decisions and say, you know, I'm take
this job for three months and then leave. Stick it out.
give it a chance to sort of settle. And eventually
I think you'll find that there are going to be
parts that you'll enjoy and maybe parts that you'll grow
into at the same time. I think, um, when you're
getting to know new people, you just got to hold
(36:42):
it loosely and say, Lord, give me the eyes to
see the ears to hear what you want me to
observe in this new community as you go into a
new church, your church planters. This is a good bit
of advice for church planters. Oftentimes, they will start with
the assumption that the first impression is always the most accurate,
when in fact you have to sort of test and
validate that over time, as you get to know people
and get to know the community. So we hold it loosely.
(37:05):
We do our very best to make a positive impression
and we pray a lot.
S1 (37:09):
Recently, I was given a book by a friend that
goes under the title of Leading something. You didn't start leading,
something you didn't start, and a lot of a lot
of us are in that situation where we're leading things.
We didn't start, and yet we are called to do
the enormous work of establishing curating culture. We got to
(37:33):
take a short break. But when we come back, I
want to talk to you about how do you build culture? Folks,
this book, Hinge Moments, is a critical resource in the
hand of every leader because we are constantly facing and
having to navigate change. As Doctor Lindsay has said that
the one thing that we can be sure of is
(37:54):
that nothing stays the same. Everything changes. And so how
do we leverage the moments, those defining moments in our
lives and for the benefit of those that we lead?
That's why you need hinge moments, my friends. I encourage
you emphatically that this would be a great resource to
(38:15):
add to your library. Can you do that? Can you
go to our website? Equip Radio.com? It'll be a blessing. Also,
we're going to give away some free copies to those
who reach out to us on social media. We'll pick
a few names and let you know that you've won.
For the rest, it is well worth the investment. We'll
be right back with more right after this. The enemy
(38:39):
loves to take our sexual struggles and build strongholds to
separate us from God. We start believing lies like we
can't go to church anymore or that God couldn't possibly
love us. Surrender Sexuality by Julie Slattery breaks down those
barriers and shows you the path to freedom without shame
(39:00):
and into the welcoming arms of Jesus. We'll send you
a copy with our thanks when you support equipped this month.
Simply call 888644 4144 or visit Equip Radio. Org. Michael,
(39:21):
you've been such a joy to talk to on today's
edition of equip, there are literally dozens of questions that
I would love to ask, but because this is our
last segment together, we're going to treat this like a
rapid fire round. And so I'll ask a few questions.
You do your best to answer, and we'll get in
as many questions as we can. How do we go
(39:44):
about building culture in a new place?
S2 (39:48):
Well, culture is pretty much, uh, the ways that people
make sense of the world. And so what you want
to try and do is draw together people, stories and
what I call in the book, cultural artifacts. So, uh,
physical objects, parts of the history of the place, you
really want to mine what came before us and then
help to build the culture in the direction that you want.
(40:09):
So it's really about storytelling and using symbols to get
people excited about what the Lord is doing in your community.
S1 (40:16):
That section of the book is so valuable storytelling, using symbols,
mining the past. I think so often the mistake that
leaders make, in particular younger leaders, less experienced leaders, is
to treat new opportunities in a self-centered way, as opposed
to a stewardship that you've been given and an invitation
(40:38):
to be a part of a new community, a new
family for you, but certainly one that has established norms, roots,
a past. You know, one of the bits of recommendation
that has helped me a lot is I came from
a mentor of mine who said, Chris, when you're in
a new place, it's okay to tear down old fences.
But before you do, you want to find out who
(41:01):
built them and why they were built. And I think
it's really important to know those things, because you might
find at the end of it that that fence is
worth leaving there. Uh, let me ask another question about
building trust. Uh, that's hard to do. In particular, I find, Michael,
that most organizational leaders are telling me that in a
(41:21):
post-Covid world, there is more of an assumption of suspicion
concerning leaders than it was in a pre-COVID world. So
how do you build trust?
S2 (41:31):
You know, trust is something that you have to develop
over a long haul. And I think that probably the
most important thing is finding ways for you to be
authentic and revealing. So in my presidency at Gordon, I
chose the sermons that I preached in chapel to be
specific occasions when I would tell stories about my family
(41:51):
and about myself that were in some ways revealing. And
I worked really hard to make sure that they were
stories that where I wasn't the hero or things didn't
always go well, but that I shared stories of struggle
or pain or difficulty and how God sustained me in that.
I think that the more we are revealing, the more
people will be likely to trust us.
S1 (42:10):
I love that. I love that so much. And I
think that part of the reason why I love it
is because so often I'm not the hero of the story.
So that's pretty easy for me to pick those stories
that I'm not the hero of. But I do believe
that there is so much value in transparency and building trust.
And it really does take patience, doesn't it?
S4 (42:33):
It does for sure.
S1 (42:35):
Let's let's talk about as you progress through the book,
you ultimately talk about this whole issue of growing through
major life changes. So many of us are paralyzed by
fear and embarrassment. Why shouldn't we be?
S2 (42:52):
Well, I think the benefit of interviewing 550 amazing Americans
who've had tremendous experiences is that you can see each
of them went through moments of challenge and pain, and
there is no shame in going through a setback or disappointment.
The shame occurs when we don't learn from those and
don't grow from them. And so, you know, as you,
(43:15):
as you have various hard knocks along the way, you
also develop a sense of resilience and grit that allows
you to be successful over the long haul.
S1 (43:24):
You know, you chronicle the story as part of the
life of former President George W Bush. Obviously, his life
and his ups and downs are pretty well noted, but
there are redemption moments. He experienced one of those redemption
moments in his political journey, didn't he?
S2 (43:45):
Mhm. Well, I think that the, the work that President
Bush and his advisers did around Aids relief in sub-Saharan
Africa is undoubtedly is being hailed as probably the greatest
achievement of his administration and maybe the most significant public
policy action the US government has taken since the Marshall
Plan after World War two. And Democrats and Republicans alike,
(44:08):
who excoriated George W Bush in different moments of his presidency,
have come to see him in many ways as a hero,
a man who brought his faith convictions to bear to
the For the presidency and did a lot of good
in the process.
S1 (44:21):
You use the life of Corrie ten boom in a
powerful way, and I would love, as we kind of
land this plane, for you to talk about what you
learned about the importance of not only having hinges, but
to have steady hinges.
S2 (44:38):
Well, the book talks about hinges are engineering marvels because
they allow doors to remain open or doors that are
closed to remain closed, but they also allow for a
door that's closed to be opened and an open door
to be closed. So it's truly amazing. In the same way,
(44:59):
the biblical virtues that we're admonished to embrace, the fruit
of the spirit, things like courage and self-control, wisdom and
working for justice. These are all virtues throughout the narrative
of Scripture that the faithful are admonished to embody. And
Corrie ten boom, of course, represented that uh, saving, uh,
(45:19):
many Jews from certain death from the Nazis as she
was living in Amsterdam during, uh, the dark days of
World War two, and how important it was for her
to be willing to demonstrate courage under fire. Grace under
pressure is really important in that what I hope to do.
I've got 11 year old twin girls, and I want
(45:40):
them to develop the kind of virtue so they'd be
willing to take the courageous action for following what God
would lead them to do, and to do it with integrity.
And what I find over the long haul is that
people who have developed these virtues through daily spiritual disciplines
and living out their daily life, they end up becoming, uh, heroic,
(46:01):
not in the sense of, you know, made for a Hollywood, uh,
motion picture, but they do the kinds of important moments
that the Lord uses to change people's lives. And that's
the great thing about the gospel is that we are
given the opportunity to to work, to be the agents
of God's work in the world and to help, uh,
(46:22):
bring redemption in the lives of other people.
S1 (46:25):
You are such a important voice in this hour. I
couldn't be more excited for you. Be more excited for, uh, Taylor.
And I'm looking forward to all that God has in
store for you. So grateful for you. Thank you for
joining us. You know, Kay James says this about your
book that it's a must read. Uh, for those who
(46:46):
are going through the chaotic changes of life, all of
us are navigating through that. This book helps. Thank you
so much, Michael.
S2 (46:54):
Really appreciate it. Thanks for having me on.
S1 (46:56):
Folks. You can find out more at Equip Radio.com. Until
we're together again, uh, remember that equipped with Chris Brooks
is a production of Moody Radio, a ministry of Moody
Bible Institute.
Please enjoy this encore edition of equip with Chris Brooks. Well,
hey there friends, welcome to another exciting edition of Equipped
with Chris Rocks. I am absolutely thrilled that you've joined
us today. Why don't you do me a favor? Strap
on your seat belt. We've been praying for you. We're
going to navigate through the contours of culture, as always,
with the lens of the biblical worldview. But before we
(00:37):
do that, let me remind you. This is the day
that the Lord has made. He has given it as
a gift so that you and I can rejoice and
be glad in it. So let's do just that. Let's
follow the words of the Apostle Paul. Let's rejoice in
the Lord always. And again I say, rejoice. That is
the Word of Scripture. And I pray that that is
the heartbeat of your life. God is good and we
(01:00):
need to remind ourselves of that even and maybe especially
in seasons of change, how do you navigate successfully seasons
of transition and change when you're sensing that God is
compelling you to move maybe to a new city, maybe
to a new opportunity, maybe to into new relationships. Uh,
(01:24):
how do you navigate that? Well, uh, we're going to
talk about that. You know, recently I read a study
that was produced by the Wall Street Journal that speaks
to the fact that in this particular year, companies across
our country have had an unprecedented amount of employees who
have transitioned, uh, transitioned to new roles or even out
(01:47):
of the company to new companies. And, uh, that just
really provoked me to think about what I have seen
in my own personal sphere of relationships, network of relationships.
So many people are in what is called hinge moments
of their lives. Moments in which life is changing. Pivot moments,
(02:09):
if you will. And I want to help you to
navigate through that. Some of you are again discerning that
God is provoking change. Some of you, it's not so
much a matter of discernment, but just change is happening
and being thrust upon you, and I want you to
navigate that well. So I invited someone who I have
(02:30):
a tremendous amount of respect for. I'm a huge fan of,
from a distance, Doctor Michael Lindsay, uh, Doctor Lindsay is
a is a president of a college, Taylor University in Upland, Indiana.
He previously served as president of Gordon College. Uh, he
also is a sociologist. Uh, he has done tremendous research,
(02:56):
talking to leaders across sectors about how they lead, about
the essence of leadership. And now, in his newest book,
Hinge Moments How to Make the Most of Life's Transitions. Michael,
how are you today?
S2 (03:11):
I'm doing fine. Thanks so much for having me on, Chris.
S1 (03:14):
It is so good to have you on. It's great
to be with you. I know this has been a
world wind of of change in this season, in your
own life. Before we get into the book, how are
you and your family doing through Covid, through all that
the last 12 months have presented to us?
S2 (03:35):
Well, thanks. We are excited about beginning a new chapter
at Taylor University, a wonderful Christian university in Indiana. Um,
after having a wonderful time for ten years in the
presidency of Gordon College in Boston. Covid 19 was an
interesting challenge for all of us in Christian higher ed,
but I'm so proud of what happened at both institutions. Uh,
(03:58):
very low positivity rates, terrific compliance. You know, our students, uh,
love the Lord, and they love one another. And so
it would it's not surprising that they would be, uh,
great examples for the rest of the higher ed community,
and I'm also hopeful to be able to see how
the Lord is going to use this societal wide hinge
moment as we move through the recovery, and we begin
(04:21):
to get further toward the end of the tunnel. And
in the process of that, hopefully the Lord can use
it for his greater good.
S1 (04:29):
Yeah, well, I'm glad to hear that you're doing well,
and I know many of us who have appreciated your
work are certainly celebrating the fact that you are continuing
on in leadership in the post that you're going to
be taking on and looking forward to the the things
that lie ahead. But let's talk about your most recent book,
(04:50):
Hinge Moments. I know you put a ton of research
into your books. Talk a little bit about what this
book is about and how it came into being.
S2 (05:00):
I spent about ten years of my life interviewing senior
leaders in American society, and produced what is the largest
study of leaders ever done. I interviewed former Presidents Carter
and Bush, cabinet secretaries like Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rice,
as well as the CEOs of 250 of the largest companies,
including 20 of the fortune 100 CEOs, and the presence
(05:23):
of every major nonprofit in the U.S., including the presence
of Harvard, Stanford and Princeton. What I was really trying
to figure out is what had been important milestones in
their life, and how did that in turn shape the
person that they became and the way that they led?
While working through that multiyear research project? I just became
convinced that that so many of these individuals had really
(05:45):
navigated big changes in their life effectively. As a college president,
I want to do everything I can to help equip
my students to be successful over the long haul. So
I started writing the book, thinking it would be advice
for college students on how to make wise decisions. But
in the process, I realized it had an opportunity for
a much wider readership, including people you know, middle age
(06:06):
or older that are thinking about how do they make
good use of the time the Lord has given them?
And all of that led to what became hinge moments.
S1 (06:14):
I want you to maybe expound upon the statement that
you have in your introduction up under the section what
are hinge Moments? You say this there are particular moments
in our own lives that we realize sometimes in a flash,
that something has to change. It's going to change whether
we like it or not. You go on to say
(06:35):
what follows these instances will depend depend intrinsically on the
decisions we make and the actions we take. These are
hinge moments, opportunities to open or to close doors to
various pathways of our lives. Those are profound words. Expound
upon that.
S2 (06:57):
Well, the average American has given 37,000,000 minutes of life.
But each of us, if we look back on our
own life, can say there's probably somewhere between 12 and
20 individual minutes that had a disproportionate impact on the
rest of our lives. The minute you're born, the minute
you come to faith in Christ, the minute you meet
(07:17):
your spouse, the minute your first child is born, the
minute you have your first serious professional setback, the minute
that you lose a loved one, these become significant inflection
points in our life. What I found is that all
of us experience these, but not everybody prepares adequately for
them or is thinking about them. Well, change happens to
(07:40):
us in a moment, but transition is a process that
takes weeks, months, sometimes years to navigate. And the book
is designed to try and help people think about those changes,
prepare for them so they can respond more effectively when
they invariably come.
S1 (07:57):
I want to talk about how we navigate these seasons,
but you say this again in your book. For all
of us, there's only one thing that remains the same
the fact that nothing does. How much is navigating successfully
through your hinge moments is just embracing the reality that
(08:17):
comfort is an illusion and that everything changes.
S2 (08:22):
Well, most of us fear change because we think it's
going to entail a sense of loss. And I guess
that's probably true in some grand way that every change
does involve gains and losses. But most of us learn
how to regroup and how to respond and how to
rebound from those losses. And most of the time, the
(08:45):
changes that come along become milestones where the Lord really
does extraordinary things. Frederick Buechner is a pastor and author
who wrote a statement that really stood out to me.
He said something to the effect of even the saddest
things in life, once we have made peace with them,
can be sources of strength for the journey that still
(09:06):
lies ahead. And I really think that that's probably true
for all of us, that if we can think about
how we might respond to those changes, whether it's, you know,
your job is eliminated or your wife says, we need
to move to California. All of these become moments for
transition that could end up having a very positive long
(09:27):
term effect. But we've got to be ready for it.
We've got to be prepared for it.
S1 (09:31):
So when you look back over the past year, Michael,
and you consider Covid, it's it's obviously a hinge moment.
It's a huge societal hinge moment for for so many. Again,
the type of thing that you said change is going
to happen whether we like it or not. Do you
see it as a good thing or how do you
(09:52):
see it? Do you see it in an adversarial way?
How should we see it?
S2 (09:57):
Well, let's let's remember that 1918 was the outbreak of
the Spanish flu pandemic. The most significant public health crisis
in the last hundred years. 1929 was the start of
the Great Depression, the economic upheaval that had ripple effect
around the world. And 1968 was the year of racial,
political and cultural upheaval that has stayed with us ever since.
(10:21):
The last 12 months have been like 1918, 1929 and
1968 all rolled into one. And so I think it
is incredibly important for the church, for those of us
who are Christ followers, to say, we've got to steward
this moment well because it's a once in a generation experience.
But I'm also hopeful I get to work with college
(10:43):
students every day, and I'm very hopeful for the way
that the gospel can have a positive impact, not just
in the church, but also for the common good.
S1 (10:53):
You talk about the fact in your book how transitions
shape us. How have your transition shaped you from going
from what you describe as your dream job, as on
the sociology faculty at Rice University to this wonderful tenure
at Gordon College. Uh, to now, another hinge moment as you, uh,
(11:17):
traverse and travel the road to Taylor.
S2 (11:21):
Well, I certainly never dreamed when I got my PhD
that I would eventually serve as a university president in
New England and the Midwest. I'm originally from the South, so, um,
living in these different parts of the country has been
an adventure for me. But I'm so grateful that the
Lord has expanded my horizons and has used opportunities that
(11:42):
have come along to not just affect my life, but
the life of my girls, my wife, uh, our family
is so much richer and better. Having met fellow believers
and having the experiences of living in a different part
of the country. So part of what I want to
try and do with the book is to just encourage people.
Change happens to us. Some of it is by our
own choosing, some of it is by the choice of
(12:04):
somebody else. But all of us can choose how we
respond to the change. And throughout the Bible we see
examples of the faithful who embrace the change that the
Lord brought into their life, and even the difficult moments. Remember,
Joseph says, what others may have meant for evil. God
meant for good. Ours is a God who redeems even
the hard things. And that's the great news for all
(12:26):
of us.
S1 (12:27):
When we come back, we're going to talk about some
of the stages of transition, how transitions define us. My friends,
there are a few key moments in life in which
your whole life is defined by, hinges upon, and is
changed by. We want you to be ready for those
moments and to navigate those moments well. And so in
(12:49):
order to do that, I'm highly recommending you get your
hands on a copy of Hinge Moments making the most
of life's transitions. We're all in it. All of us
are in a hinge moment in human history, some more
acutely living into it on a personal level. I want
you to land on the other side of the door,
(13:11):
swing in the place that God has called you to be.
So find out more at our website. Equip radio.org. Michael
Lindsey says this that the study of leadership is the
science of transition, the study of the science of transition.
We're going to talk about what that means more on
(13:31):
the other side of this break. As always, we're going
to give away some complimentary copies of our guests book.
And part of the way we do that is through
social media. So today we're going to pick five names, uh,
from individuals who join us on social media, uh, that
we will, uh, give a complimentary copy of Hinge Moments
(13:52):
to Justice, a thank you for listening to the program.
So why don't you do me a favor? Go to
Equip Radio on Facebook and Twitter. Join us there. It
allows us to keep the conversation going, and to invest
in your life in a way that equips you to
more effectively live, share, and defend your faith. We'll be
right back with more from Michael Lindsey on the other
(14:14):
side of this break. Next up on equip. Do you
have questions about your sexuality that no one seems to address,
whether it's sexual sin, gender confusion, or issues in your marriage?
Surrender Sexuality by Doctor Julie Slattery has insights you need.
She'll help you to see that God wants to be
(14:34):
invited into your questions and struggles. And when you do,
everything changes. Request your copy with your gift of any amount.
To equip, simply call 888644 4144 or visit Equip radio.org.
Chris Brooks here reminding you that today's program is pre-recorded
(14:57):
and we won't be taking your calls. Welcome back to
equipped with Chris Brooks. Michael Lindsey is my guest. We're
discussing his newest book, Hinge Moment Making the most of
Life transitions. Maybe you're in the midst of transition. Uh,
this is a gift to you. To me, that Michael
Lindsey has written for the world. Why don't you go
(15:17):
to our website, Equip radio. I believe it'll be a
great encouragement to your heart. You can find out ordering
instructions there. Uh, one of the pages that's often overlooked.
Of every book that I find to be most fascinating. Michael,
is the dedication page you dedicate this book to Davis, Herman, Kurt,
(15:38):
Rebecca and William. You call them wonderful partners for navigating
life's hinge moments. Who are they and why are they
so important?
S2 (15:48):
Well, that's so special. I never get asked about that.
So Davis Metzger was a student body president at Gordon,
who worked in my office as a presidential fellow, and
then came and joined my president's office team, and he
helped me in drafting the manuscript and was a great
conversation partner through the whole process. Kurt Hecker and Herman
Smith were the two board chairs at Gordon College during
(16:10):
my presidency, and both of them walked alongside me through
a variety of different hinge moments, both for the institution
and for me personally. William Hagen is a trusted colleague
who graduated from Gordon, became my chief of staff and
at Gordon, and he's now serving as vice president for
strategy and chief of staff at Taylor. And then, of course,
my wife, Rebecca, who's been the greatest partner through the
(16:33):
last 26 years of married life.
S1 (16:36):
It tells me a lot. It tells me that to
properly navigate through hinge moments, you need a team, don't you?
S2 (16:44):
Indeed. Yeah. We rely upon our family and friends the most,
because oftentimes those hinge moments come at seasons of real
leaving one community and then eventually joining another one. And
in those in-between times, you really depend upon the close
friends and loved ones.
S1 (17:02):
I don't know which part I love most about your writing,
the descriptive portions of the prescriptive portions. Let's talk a
little bit, though, about the prescriptive. You walk us through
seven stages of transition. Can you give us a quick
introduction of that?
S2 (17:19):
Yeah. So just as there are five stages of grief
I found in my research, there's seven stages of transition
even before you fully know changes afoot. There's something within
our spirit or our hearts that begins to sort of stir.
I describe it as the butterflies that are in our stomach.
And in the book, I tell the story of a
couple of different butterfly moments of my own journey of
(17:42):
sensing that God was calling me to step away from
the Gordon presidency, a job that I had loved and
thought I would do for the rest of my life
and be open to doing something else. Though I didn't
know what that was or where it would be. And
so we anticipate some of these changes and begin to
discern that maybe God is calling us to do something different.
Then we get to sort of the low point. I
would describe it in terms of your confidence. Um, it's
(18:05):
a season of self-doubt and frankly, oftentimes a little bit
of depression or sadness called the intersection phase. When you're
really betwixt and between, you're sort of in the threshold.
You've left your old place, but you haven't joined your
new place. But then gradually you begin to get acclimated
to your new community. You begin to develop some relational
ties and get sort of connected with that. And eventually
(18:28):
that leads to a full integration with your new community
or your new life. And then eventually you realize, in
the grand scheme of things, the Lord actually used all
of the the challenges that you went through on that
journey to make you into a stronger, more faithful disciple.
So it's seven stages of transition that take you from
sort of where you're starting down to a low point
(18:50):
and then back up to a high point that's even
higher than where you started. And I found consistently, no
matter who I interviewed, all 550 leaders that I interviewed
went through this experience. And it resonates with my own
journey over the last year as well.
S1 (19:05):
Let's talk about maybe a story from the discernment phase.
I want to read a quote, though, from your book.
You say there are at least three kinds of change
we face or changes. Rather, we face those we wouldn't choose.
But we can see coming, those we choose ourselves, and
those that flood our homes at two in the morning. Yeah.
(19:28):
So when you talk about that, talk about maybe a
story or so that sticks out to you about the
discernment phase.
S2 (19:35):
Well, so the allusion to the flood is I tell
the story about how my childhood home was flooded when
the reservoir in our hometown of Jackson, Mississippi, reached a
breaking point. And the mayor had to make the very
difficult decision to open the floodgates, realizing that he was
going to flood about one third of the city, but
(19:56):
that if the floodgates had broken, it would flood the
entire city. And so my house, in the course of
about six hours, went from being perfectly dry to having five,
six feet of water in it. And oftentimes, you know,
those kinds of things happen instantaneously. And so you have
to be able to sort of respond, um, based on
(20:18):
the spiritual disciplines that you developed and the character that
you've developed up to that moment, I say that you can't,
you know, really rely upon these hinge moments to be
the moments when you develop your character. You're just sort
of responding on instinct. So these kinds of episodes, tragedies
don't develop our character, they just reveal it. And so,
(20:41):
so much of what we have to do is be
ready by developing those kind of spiritual disciplines, just as
you would go to the gym to work out your muscles.
So also you need to develop spiritual disciplines to work
out your soul.
S1 (20:53):
You highlight the fact that it's hard though. So why
is it so hard? Why would you, um, you know, uh,
define these transition moments as moments that feel like you're,
you're abandoning, uh, something.
S2 (21:11):
Well, I think for most of us, we are so
afraid of the negative side of change that we actually
become overly cautious. And I tell in the book, you know,
some interesting social science research that shows that most of
us are so risk averse, we actually miss out on
a number of great opportunities and blessings that the Lord
(21:31):
would like to bring into our life, but we're too
afraid to take the step of faith. And so what
we have to what we have to do, in essence,
is develop the kind of character, like the character character
of the people in the Bible who were willing to
embrace whatever it is that the Lord has for me.
I'm ready to be open to it.
S1 (21:50):
What did you learn from talking to Doctor Steven Levitt?
S2 (21:54):
Well, Steve Levitt is part of a larger sort of
network of researchers, which is really talking to us about
the importance for us to not rely too much on
our own intuition or trust, but instead to be willing
to take more risks. The book is really sort of
an encouragement for Christ followers to be willing to take
(22:17):
more risks and to say, you can sort of step
out on faith and you can get an opportunity to
go into the next phase, or to be willing to
undertake something that may seem difficult or hard, but through
it you develop a sense of perseverance.
S1 (22:30):
But I have to imagine, and you highlight so much
of your story in the book, but there are also
opportunities that you have turned down along the way. I mean,
the opportunity to join the wonderful institution of Taylor, uh,
was a unique opportunity that you sense was right and
(22:51):
in the next step for you. But how do you
know when it is time to say yes or when
it's time to say no?
S2 (22:59):
Well, there's an interesting thing. So I announced to my
board of trustees at Gordon in October that I was
going to step away from the presidency at the end
of the academic year. And they responded wonderfully supportive and
tried to, you know, I was getting text messages and
phone calls, people saying, are you sure you really want
to do this? But I really felt led by God
that it was a step of faith, and it required
(23:21):
an act of obedience on my part. But then, you know,
it's now October 15th, and I've announced to the world
and people would say, well, where are you going? And
I have no idea. You know, I'm not sure what
I'm going to do. And I think people had suspicions
that I had some master plan, but I didn't. I
was just really asking the Lord to guide me. So
I began talking with people, praying and. And in the end,
(23:43):
I was very blessed. I have three different pathways available
and each of them would have been exciting. Good pathways.
And I would have, you know, could have had a
very fulfilling life in those. But I did feel like
that the Lord really guided me in a particular moment
of decision. I had a particularly sleepless night, um, when
(24:04):
I was weighing the opportunity to go to Taylor, and
I had never had that before or since. It turned
out that the board of trustees at Taylor had been
praying about my candidacy that very evening, and one of
the trustees prayed that if God was calling me, that
God would do whatever it took to get my attention,
even if it meant keeping me up all night. Don't
(24:25):
let him get a wink of sleep. And when I
heard that story, I realized, wow, the Lord is in this,
and I've got to be responsive. So not every day
do we get those kinds of signals. But ours is
a God who wants to answer our prayers. He wants
to meet us at our place of need. And so
I think as we turn our lives over to the
Lord and ask him to guide us. He'll do it
(24:47):
in exceeding measure. And I certainly found that to be
the case in my own sense of calling to Taylor.
S1 (24:52):
Wow. You know, I have a similar story in my
life as well on how I ended up in in
my current role pastorally leaving the church that I pastor
for 20 years and now at a new church. Loving
the journey. Grateful for the spiritual family here. But I
jokingly will say after hearing your story, someone may be
(25:12):
losing sleep because they're not responding to the prayers of
another person, so the quicker you respond, the better you'll sleep.
I'm so grateful for your transparency. We got to take
another break. When we come back, we're going to talk
about the powerful and important role of mentors in our lives. Uh,
why was Gandalf so important in the life of Bilbo?
(25:35):
What about Obi-Wan? Uh, why was he so important in
the life of Luke? All of us can think of
these mentors. without which we would not have been able
to navigate change. Do you have true mentors in your life?
We're going to talk about that and much more. The
book Hinge Moments making the most of Life's transitions. I
(25:56):
encourage you to get it now, not only for yourself,
but maybe for a leader, a young adult, someone in
transition that you know and you love. Why don't you
be a blessing? Go to our website. Equip Radio.com ordering
information there. We'll be right back right after this. Chris
Brooks here reminding you that today's program is pre-recorded. While
(26:19):
we won't be taking calls, we do want to connect
with you on social media. Welcome back to Equipped with
Chris Brooks. So grateful for all of you who listen
and support the program. Today's conversation is with Doctor Michael Lindsey.
Doctor Lindsey has been the president of Gordon College. He's
also been on the sociology faculty at Rice University. Presently,
(26:42):
he is preparing for his next post as the President
of Taylor University. Really excited to have him on as
he discusses his work. This platinum study of leaders and
how hinge moments define our lives, and how we can
make the most out of the transitional moments of our lives.
(27:02):
Doctor Lindsay, we were talking before we went to break
about mentors. Why are mentors so important and invaluable in
this transition process?
S2 (27:12):
You know, I found in the lives of all the
leaders that I interviewed, so many of them really relied
upon older advisors, counselors, mentors who gave them words of encouragement,
words of wisdom, and help them to navigate the big
changes that occurred. And I certainly have found that to
be true in my own life. Each of us rely
upon a handful of people who have gone before us,
(27:33):
who can help encourage us, but also show us the way. Oftentimes,
mentors can prod us to, to take new pathways, or
they can help walk alongside us when the hard times come.
S1 (27:46):
Yeah, I'd love for you to just spend a moment,
if you could, to just talk about what it was
like to have coffee with with George Gallup.
S3 (27:54):
Well, George Gallup.
S2 (27:55):
Was an amazing mentor and friend. Um, the story is
that I was in seminary and had thought that I
was going to do a internship working with a group
of missionaries who served the diplomatic community at the United Nations.
But at the last minute, they basically called and said,
you know, we just we think the Lord is telling
us this is not what we should do. And so
(28:16):
we're not going to we're not going to have you
as our intern. And I was just devastated. And I
told my wife it was the end of the year,
and I was desperate to find somebody and I didn't
know what to do. And I had met Mr. Gallup once.
I knew he was a Christian. And, uh, he he
was working in my, you know, where I was living
in Princeton, new Jersey. And she said, why don't you
(28:37):
call him and just see if he would ever consider
taking you on. And I gave her every reason in
the book of why that was a stupid idea, including
the fact that he would have to be my direct supervisor.
And I couldn't imagine asking George Gallup to take on
a seminary intern, but also because I just, you know,
I said, well, he's got to pay me, and it's
going to be very difficult. I can't imagine that it
(28:57):
would work. But I was, you know, in many ways
I was sort of desperate. I didn't have any other
good options. So I finally called up mr. Gallup and
asked if I could buy him a cup of coffee.
I didn't tell him what was on my mind, but
when we got together, I told him my dilemma and
asked if he had any work that a, you know,
a young seminary intern could help him with. As it
turned out, he had a book project that he was
(29:18):
working on at the time, and he said, maybe you
could help me write the book. Now, when he told
me that I had a certain vision of what co-authoring
a book would be like, and it turns out, you know,
I was more of a research assistant, and I ended
up writing 95% of the book. But he was so kind,
he allowed me to be listed as a co-author. And
it really began my sort of journey in both social
(29:39):
science research as well as as an author and speaker.
So it changed my life, and it really occurred over
a cup of coffee when I asked George Gallup and
took a little bit of a risk. He said yes,
and we developed a mentorship that continued on for many,
many years afterwards.
S1 (29:54):
That's fascinating to me. And you never know, right? That's
part of the risk taking of life. And many people
right now should be praying for a mentor and maybe
taking the risk to grab a cup of coffee, to
extend a question or invitation to deepen a relationship. You
(30:14):
never know what's on the other side. You know, earlier
I asked the question, when shouldn't we leave? And I
found this comment in your book to be pretty profound.
You say never cut important ties to people or organizations
simply because of your own irritation or short term bad experience.
S2 (30:33):
Yeah, I think that that's right. Part of that is
just advice my mom always gave me of not burning bridges,
but also part of it is the experience of leading
an institution. And I can just say oftentimes people assume
that they know the full picture behind, you know, frustrations
or difficulties they've experienced, when in fact, there's a whole
(30:56):
lot that goes into what happens at institutions, and many
times the frustrations that people feel are legitimate, but they're
not the full picture. And so you just don't want
to assume that you've got the full picture because you
may not. And in the end, you may be cutting
off a relationship that the Lord wants you to continue
to have. I think it matters a lot that we
(31:18):
end well wherever we are. And this is true not
just for taking on new jobs or moving, but it's
also how we, you know, navigate relationships. Um, I think
it's quite instructive. One of my friends who was pregnant
at the time she was reading my book, talked about
how the nine months of gestation getting ready for your
(31:38):
baby's arrival, in many ways, is walking you through these
different phases of hinge moments because you're a first time parent.
I mean, it's a scary proposition. The life that you've
known in the past is not going to be the same.
You're excited about the baby's arrival, but at the same time,
it doesn't entail a sense of change. All of these
become ways in which we sort of develop the kind
of virtue and wisdom and character that will serve us
(32:02):
well over the long haul. And part of that is
keeping those connections with people who have been important in
different phases of your life.
S1 (32:09):
I want to make sure that those who are listening
know that this book is so accessible. I'm holding it
in my hand right now, and you would think that
the wisdom that Michael sharing this would be a 500
page volume book and easily could have been, uh, maybe
the greatest miracle of it all is how you reduce
(32:30):
all of that study, all those interviews, down to a
book of about 150 pages, roughly. But that's what it is.
And I love the fact that it's 150 pages because
it's accessible, it's practical, but it's so full of wisdom
on how to navigate through the changes of life. Well,
and so it may be a book that I could
(32:52):
see being read individually, but certainly I could see it, Michael,
being read in a group, a group study that could
really help to make all the difference in the life
of those who are navigating not only currently through a
hinge moment, but no one is on the horizon. Um,
let's talk about this next phase, Michael. And I think
(33:12):
it's really important. The landing phase. So. So after you've
gone through, uh, the emotions of discerning and anticipation and intersection,
ultimately you do find your new your new place, your
new step, that new opportunity, that new relationship. How do
you navigate through that season? Well.
S2 (33:34):
I think it's vital that we try to be very
attentive to the importance of developing and strengthening new relationships,
learning people's names and faces, being more curious about the
people you're meeting than they're curious about you. You know,
it's some of the basic manners that our parents teach
us as a young kid, but sometimes we forget as
we get older. It's important that you really take a
(33:56):
vested interest in others and help them to see that
you care for them, and you're looking forward to getting
to know them in a meaningful way. And I find
that throughout that process, the Lord uses us to help
get connected, develop relationships that will serve us well in
this next season of wherever he's called us.
S1 (34:13):
Out of the leaders you interviewed, who do you feel
like really embodied that?
S2 (34:18):
There's a lot of intentionality among a lot of people. So,
you know, I think that I tell the story of
Oprah Winfrey, who has a very interesting journey whereby her
start in daytime television really came as a result of
being fired from, um, serving as the evening news anchor
in Baltimore. And, you know, she has amazing, uh, emotional
(34:43):
and relational intelligence and is able to make connections with
people really quick. Not everybody can be Oprah Winfrey, but
each of us in our different giftings can be intentional
about developing relationships. And that's kind of the key message
is to say, you know, all that we're about at
the end of the day is about connecting with other people.
(35:03):
We are created for relationship. And so using the hinge
moments as a way of developing and deepening relationships is
pretty important in the whole framework.
S1 (35:12):
How do you avoid making false assumptions about the new
place because you step through the door? You obviously have
your first impressions of them as they have their first
impressions of you. You probably have some input from the
narratives of others on the place or the people. How
(35:33):
do you look ahead without falling into the trap of
false presumptions?
S2 (35:38):
Well, that's a really astute observation. I do think you
only get one chance to make a first impression. So
you really want to be thoughtful about how you come
across and how people get to know you. At the
same time, we don't want to put too much stock
in first impressions because oftentimes our judgments are not exactly accurate.
So you've got to develop that over time. And I
think the Lord does that in our lives and gives
(35:58):
us a chance to sort of discern people. But you
got to hold it loosely. In the book, I talk
about how often recent college grads sort of have an
image of their first, their first major job, that it's
going to be this ideal role when in fact most
of our first jobs are not that great. You know,
they have some elements of things that we enjoy, but
(36:20):
in every job there's stuff that you don't enjoy. So
don't make quick decisions and say, you know, I'm take
this job for three months and then leave. Stick it out.
give it a chance to sort of settle. And eventually
I think you'll find that there are going to be
parts that you'll enjoy and maybe parts that you'll grow
into at the same time. I think, um, when you're
getting to know new people, you just got to hold
(36:42):
it loosely and say, Lord, give me the eyes to
see the ears to hear what you want me to
observe in this new community as you go into a
new church, your church planters. This is a good bit
of advice for church planters. Oftentimes, they will start with
the assumption that the first impression is always the most accurate,
when in fact you have to sort of test and
validate that over time, as you get to know people
and get to know the community. So we hold it loosely.
(37:05):
We do our very best to make a positive impression
and we pray a lot.
S1 (37:09):
Recently, I was given a book by a friend that
goes under the title of Leading something. You didn't start leading,
something you didn't start, and a lot of a lot
of us are in that situation where we're leading things.
We didn't start, and yet we are called to do
the enormous work of establishing curating culture. We got to
(37:33):
take a short break. But when we come back, I
want to talk to you about how do you build culture? Folks,
this book, Hinge Moments, is a critical resource in the
hand of every leader because we are constantly facing and
having to navigate change. As Doctor Lindsay has said that
the one thing that we can be sure of is
(37:54):
that nothing stays the same. Everything changes. And so how
do we leverage the moments, those defining moments in our
lives and for the benefit of those that we lead?
That's why you need hinge moments, my friends. I encourage
you emphatically that this would be a great resource to
(38:15):
add to your library. Can you do that? Can you
go to our website? Equip Radio.com? It'll be a blessing. Also,
we're going to give away some free copies to those
who reach out to us on social media. We'll pick
a few names and let you know that you've won.
For the rest, it is well worth the investment. We'll
be right back with more right after this. The enemy
(38:39):
loves to take our sexual struggles and build strongholds to
separate us from God. We start believing lies like we
can't go to church anymore or that God couldn't possibly
love us. Surrender Sexuality by Julie Slattery breaks down those
barriers and shows you the path to freedom without shame
(39:00):
and into the welcoming arms of Jesus. We'll send you
a copy with our thanks when you support equipped this month.
Simply call 888644 4144 or visit Equip Radio. Org. Michael,
(39:21):
you've been such a joy to talk to on today's
edition of equip, there are literally dozens of questions that
I would love to ask, but because this is our
last segment together, we're going to treat this like a
rapid fire round. And so I'll ask a few questions.
You do your best to answer, and we'll get in
as many questions as we can. How do we go
(39:44):
about building culture in a new place?
S2 (39:48):
Well, culture is pretty much, uh, the ways that people
make sense of the world. And so what you want
to try and do is draw together people, stories and
what I call in the book, cultural artifacts. So, uh,
physical objects, parts of the history of the place, you
really want to mine what came before us and then
help to build the culture in the direction that you want.
(40:09):
So it's really about storytelling and using symbols to get
people excited about what the Lord is doing in your community.
S1 (40:16):
That section of the book is so valuable storytelling, using symbols,
mining the past. I think so often the mistake that
leaders make, in particular younger leaders, less experienced leaders, is
to treat new opportunities in a self-centered way, as opposed
to a stewardship that you've been given and an invitation
(40:38):
to be a part of a new community, a new
family for you, but certainly one that has established norms, roots,
a past. You know, one of the bits of recommendation
that has helped me a lot is I came from
a mentor of mine who said, Chris, when you're in
a new place, it's okay to tear down old fences.
But before you do, you want to find out who
(41:01):
built them and why they were built. And I think
it's really important to know those things, because you might
find at the end of it that that fence is
worth leaving there. Uh, let me ask another question about
building trust. Uh, that's hard to do. In particular, I find, Michael,
that most organizational leaders are telling me that in a
(41:21):
post-Covid world, there is more of an assumption of suspicion
concerning leaders than it was in a pre-COVID world. So
how do you build trust?
S2 (41:31):
You know, trust is something that you have to develop
over a long haul. And I think that probably the
most important thing is finding ways for you to be
authentic and revealing. So in my presidency at Gordon, I
chose the sermons that I preached in chapel to be
specific occasions when I would tell stories about my family
(41:51):
and about myself that were in some ways revealing. And
I worked really hard to make sure that they were
stories that where I wasn't the hero or things didn't
always go well, but that I shared stories of struggle
or pain or difficulty and how God sustained me in that.
I think that the more we are revealing, the more
people will be likely to trust us.
S1 (42:10):
I love that. I love that so much. And I
think that part of the reason why I love it
is because so often I'm not the hero of the story.
So that's pretty easy for me to pick those stories
that I'm not the hero of. But I do believe
that there is so much value in transparency and building trust.
And it really does take patience, doesn't it?
S4 (42:33):
It does for sure.
S1 (42:35):
Let's let's talk about as you progress through the book,
you ultimately talk about this whole issue of growing through
major life changes. So many of us are paralyzed by
fear and embarrassment. Why shouldn't we be?
S2 (42:52):
Well, I think the benefit of interviewing 550 amazing Americans
who've had tremendous experiences is that you can see each
of them went through moments of challenge and pain, and
there is no shame in going through a setback or disappointment.
The shame occurs when we don't learn from those and
don't grow from them. And so, you know, as you,
(43:15):
as you have various hard knocks along the way, you
also develop a sense of resilience and grit that allows
you to be successful over the long haul.
S1 (43:24):
You know, you chronicle the story as part of the
life of former President George W Bush. Obviously, his life
and his ups and downs are pretty well noted, but
there are redemption moments. He experienced one of those redemption
moments in his political journey, didn't he?
S2 (43:45):
Mhm. Well, I think that the, the work that President
Bush and his advisers did around Aids relief in sub-Saharan
Africa is undoubtedly is being hailed as probably the greatest
achievement of his administration and maybe the most significant public
policy action the US government has taken since the Marshall
Plan after World War two. And Democrats and Republicans alike,
(44:08):
who excoriated George W Bush in different moments of his presidency,
have come to see him in many ways as a hero,
a man who brought his faith convictions to bear to
the For the presidency and did a lot of good
in the process.
S1 (44:21):
You use the life of Corrie ten boom in a
powerful way, and I would love, as we kind of
land this plane, for you to talk about what you
learned about the importance of not only having hinges, but
to have steady hinges.
S2 (44:38):
Well, the book talks about hinges are engineering marvels because
they allow doors to remain open or doors that are
closed to remain closed, but they also allow for a
door that's closed to be opened and an open door
to be closed. So it's truly amazing. In the same way,
(44:59):
the biblical virtues that we're admonished to embrace, the fruit
of the spirit, things like courage and self-control, wisdom and
working for justice. These are all virtues throughout the narrative
of Scripture that the faithful are admonished to embody. And
Corrie ten boom, of course, represented that uh, saving, uh,
(45:19):
many Jews from certain death from the Nazis as she
was living in Amsterdam during, uh, the dark days of
World War two, and how important it was for her
to be willing to demonstrate courage under fire. Grace under
pressure is really important in that what I hope to do.
I've got 11 year old twin girls, and I want
(45:40):
them to develop the kind of virtue so they'd be
willing to take the courageous action for following what God
would lead them to do, and to do it with integrity.
And what I find over the long haul is that
people who have developed these virtues through daily spiritual disciplines
and living out their daily life, they end up becoming, uh, heroic,
(46:01):
not in the sense of, you know, made for a Hollywood, uh,
motion picture, but they do the kinds of important moments
that the Lord uses to change people's lives. And that's
the great thing about the gospel is that we are
given the opportunity to to work, to be the agents
of God's work in the world and to help, uh,
(46:22):
bring redemption in the lives of other people.
S1 (46:25):
You are such a important voice in this hour. I
couldn't be more excited for you. Be more excited for, uh, Taylor.
And I'm looking forward to all that God has in
store for you. So grateful for you. Thank you for
joining us. You know, Kay James says this about your
book that it's a must read. Uh, for those who
(46:46):
are going through the chaotic changes of life, all of
us are navigating through that. This book helps. Thank you
so much, Michael.
S2 (46:54):
Really appreciate it. Thanks for having me on.
S1 (46:56):
Folks. You can find out more at Equip Radio.com. Until
we're together again, uh, remember that equipped with Chris Brooks
is a production of Moody Radio, a ministry of Moody
Bible Institute.
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