July 7, 2025 • 47 mins
When you said, "I do," you entered marriage with high hopes, dreaming it would be supremely happy. You never intended for it to be miserable. Millions of couples are struggling in desperate marriages but it doesn’t have to end there! Marriage and family counselor Dr. Gary Chapman believes every troubled marriage has the potential to change for the better. He will lead us through steps to evaluate the problems, begin to see things more clearly and make choices for lasting positive impact on you and your spouse! There is help and hope for a stronger marriage. Don't miss Equipped with Chris Brooks!
Featured resource:
Loving Your Spouse When You Feel Like Walking Away: Real Help for Desperate Hearts in Difficult Marriages by Gary Chapman
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Surrendered Sexuality by Dr. Juli Slattery
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:16):
Hey friends, please enjoy this encore presentation of equipped with
Chris Brooks. Hey there folks, welcome to another exciting edition
of equipped with Chris Brooks! I am so glad that
you've tuned in. Why don't you strap on your seat belt?
We're going to navigate through the contours of culture, as always,
with the lens of the biblical worldview on. But before
we do that, let me remind you, this is the
(00:38):
day that the Lord has made. He has given it
as a gift so that you and I might rejoice
and be glad in it. So let's do just that.
Let's follow the words of the Apostle Paul. Let's rejoice
in the Lord always. And again I say, rejoice! I
hope you're having an absolutely amazing day. I know for
many of us, we start today a little bit sluggish,
(01:00):
so hopefully quip can be your second cup of coffee
this morning, get you going and get you excited, reminding
you that our God reigns and that he is faithful.
And you know, I love to meditate on the fact
that he promises to be Emmanuel, God with us, Never leaving,
never forsaking. So no matter what you're going through, know this.
You're not alone. God's in there with you. And that
(01:22):
he promises that if you turn to him, he will
give you the strength and the grace that you need
to not only survive, but to thrive for his name's sake.
And so be encouraged today. Today we're going to take
on a very important, and I think, very timely topic.
I want to talk to you today about living in
a painful and difficult marriage. Many of you that are
(01:42):
listening to me right now, you have deep Christian convictions.
And what do you do when you have a deep
conviction that divorce is not an option? That to honor
God means to sustain your marriage, but your marriage is
in a desperate, desperate situation and season. You know, no
marriage starts out like that. Most marriages start out with
(02:04):
dreams of happiness, high hopes of happiness. But along the way,
for millions and millions of couples across the country, those
dreams of happiness were quickly dashed, and now they find
themselves living in a reality of a marriage that is
full of misery. So how do we hold on to
God's promise? And what practical things can we do to
(02:28):
continue to love our spouse when we feel like walking away? Well,
this is too important of a topic for me to
take on by myself. I'm so grateful for my guests today.
I've invited along a friend of this ministry and a
friend for many of us. He's counseled us through his books,
through his talks, through his marriage, himself, walking through the
(02:49):
various stages of marriage in a public way. And we're
grateful for Doctor Gary Chapman. He's a well-known marriage counselor,
director of Marriage Seminars. He has written over 25 books,
including his number one New York Times bestseller, The Five
Love Languages we're Proud To. He's a graduate of the
Moody Bible Institute. He's also just a good friend who
(03:12):
takes time out to join us occasionally to help couples
and families to have the marriage and the family they've
always wanted and dreamed of. Doctor Chapman, how are you today?
S2 (03:23):
I am doing well, Chris, and it's great to be
back with you again, especially on this topic, because I've
been there. I know what it is to be married
and miserable. And this, this book grew out of not
only my own experience, but also the experience of scores
and scores of couples that I've worked with through the years.
S1 (03:41):
Well, I appreciate you being transparent and honest. You always are.
So let's get into the story of this book in
many ways. And I've seen this even in my own
pastoral ministry. Sermons and books are often sparked or inspired
because of encounters we have with people. And you start
the book talking about an encounter you had with a
very dear, sweet sister who was married to an alcoholic husband.
(04:05):
Talk about that encounter and how that sparked this book.
S2 (04:10):
Well, you know, this is a very common problem in
our society, as you well know, Chris. Alcoholism and also
drug abuse. The reality is, of course, that we often
feel like if this is the case, then there's just
no hope in the relationship. And we have the idea
that an alcoholic will never change. They'll always be an alcoholic.
(04:31):
The reality is, our libraries are filled with books of
people who used to be alcoholics and drug addicts, and
Christ changed their life and turned them around. And, you know,
life is just totally different. But it's very difficult when
you're living with someone in that situation. And the content
of this book is what I use, not only with
(04:52):
that lady, but with a lot of other people is,
first of all, we have to recognize that change is
possible because we give up hope when we think there's
no change. You know, we give up hope. And the
reality is that if you're willing to do your part
in terms of Loving them. First of all, loving them
and particularly in the right love language and then also
(05:15):
loving them enough not to sit still, but to say
to them, I love you too much to sit here
and do nothing. And therefore I hope you know that
I love you. And therefore here's what I'm going to do.
And then you tell them what you're going to do.
You know, you're inviting them to counseling, but if they're
not going, then you're not going to just sit there.
(05:36):
You're going to take a step. I call it tough love.
And chances are, it's in the tough love situation that
they will be willing to go for counseling and get help.
But sometimes what happens is we try tough love before
we before we try tender love. So I say love
them for six months. No matter how they treat you.
(05:57):
Speak their love language for six months and then say
to them, you know, I hope you know that I
love you. Do you feel like I love you? And
they're going to say, yeah. Oh yeah. It's been wonderful
the last six months. We say, you know, honey, I've
asked you many times to deal with this, and you
never have. And I feel like you don't love me.
That if you love me, you'd be willing to do something,
(06:19):
you know, to deal with this issue. And therefore, uh,
I'm going to give one, one opportunity. I'm going to
ask if you will go and you tell them where
you want them to go, the counseling or the treatment
center you want them to go. But if you're not
willing to do that, I'm going to move in with
my mother because I love you too much to sit
here and do nothing. And you, when you follow that
(06:41):
tender love. Six months of tender love with tough love.
Now they've got something that they're going to miss. Now
they're saying, oh, man. Oh, no. Is she going to
walk away? Yeah. And you say to them, I'm not
abandoning you. I just love you too much to sit
here and do nothing. Whenever you're ready to deal with this,
then I'll be willing to work with you. And we'll
(07:02):
get counseling. And we can. We can try to rebuild
our marriage. So when they feel like they're about to
lose something, that's when they typically go for treatment, and
that's when things can begin to change.
S1 (07:15):
You know, this book has been just a real powerful
book to me because it's so different in many ways
than the tone in some ways, of your other books
you really take on, I think just directly, the reality
of the spouse who lives with this dilemma. On the
one hand, I have a deep commitment to honoring Christ.
(07:38):
I want to honor Christ. On the other hand, I
have the reality of living in a miserable marriage. And
what you're trying to communicate, it seems to me, Doctor Chapman,
through this book, is both a reality as well as hopefulness.
Is that right?
S2 (07:55):
That is right. I'm trying to be very, very honest
about the difficulty. In what? I'm trying to be honest
about the desperateness that many people feel, because in the book,
you know, I deal with such things as the irresponsible spouse.
I mean, they won't work, you know, they just lose
one job after another and they won't work. And then
(08:16):
there's the workaholic who's never at home. How can you
have a relationship with somebody that's never at home? And
then there's a controlling spouse, you know, who's just they
have to have the final word on everything, and whatever
they say is what's going to be like. And you
just feel like a child, you know? And the spouse
that won't talk to you, you know, they're just silent.
You can ask questions. They just sit there and then,
(08:37):
you know, the verbally abusive spouse, the physically abusive spouse.
I mean, those two are just hard, hard, hard situations.
Or a spouse who was sexually abused as a child,
and they brought that into the marriage and never dealt
with it. Or maybe they are being abusive themselves in
that area. Uh, or the unfaithful spouse, you know, they've
(08:57):
had an affair, man, that strikes at the heart of
a marriage. And and then the alcoholic, the drug, abusive spouse.
We just talked about the depressed spouse. I mean, you know,
you can almost get depressed just listening to that list
I just gave.
S1 (09:11):
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
S2 (09:13):
So I'm trying to deal with real issues, but I'm
trying to bring hope into the situation because often, uh,
we've lost hope when we live with a spouse that
has one of these difficulties.
S1 (09:25):
You say in your book here, and I think this
is important, you say, I'm under no illusion that I
can provide a magic formula for bringing healing to all
such marriages. However, I do believe, based on my own
experience and counseling research in the field and sound moral principles,
that there is hope for the hardest of marriages. So,
(09:46):
like I said, on the one hand, there is this
communication of the reality, a reality that far too often
is overlooked or marginalized. On the other hand, you've not
lost sight of the hope that is found in Christ Jesus.
S2 (10:00):
Yeah, absolutely. You know, I talk in the book about
four different myths that people often have.
S1 (10:06):
Yeah.
S2 (10:06):
And one of them is that my spouse determines my well-being.
You know that their behavior determines whether I'm going to
be happy or not. No no no no no no.
We are individuals and we have a relationship with God.
I don't care how bad your spouse is or how
how addicted they are to this behavior or that behavior.
(10:27):
That does not determine your well-being. You and God have
a relationship. And yes, you may be married to an alcoholic,
and you may have a lot of painful feelings about
the whole thing. But you're certainly you know, your environment
does affect you, but your environment does not control you.
You're a person made in the image of God, and
(10:48):
you have tremendous abilities to help other people, including your spouse. So,
you know, you you walk with God. You let God
use your life. Your your well being is not determined
by your spouse. It's it's influenced by your spouse, but
it's not determined by your spouse. That's the that's the
first issue, I think. A second one, I think, Chris,
is the fact that I alluded to earlier and that
(11:09):
is that people can change. I don't care what behavior
they have. People can change with the help of God.
God is in the business of transforming people's lives. You know, uh,
Saint Augustine once lived for pleasure. He sought his his
satisfaction through sinful sexual behavior. I mean, he lived a
horrible life, and his mother prayed for him. You know,
(11:31):
his mother prayed for him. His mother prayed for him,
and he became a model of godliness. I mean, we
think of Saint Saint Augustine, man, this is, you know,
a great man. Listen, God has the potential of changing
any man and any woman. I don't care what their
behavior is. I don't care what they've been trapped in.
God has the ability to change people. You can't change them.
But you can cooperate with God and influence them. And
(11:55):
that's one of the messages of the book.
S1 (11:58):
Well, you know, and again, what you're bringing to the table,
Doctor Chapman is both research. You've seen it firsthand. So
this is more than just theory, though. You've seen it firsthand.
You've lived it. Lived it as you alluded to. Seasons
of marriage and misery and seeing God turn it around.
So I think it's important to make sure people understand
(12:19):
that we're going to give away, give out a lot
of practical wisdom today. But this is more than just theory.
This is more than just pop psychology. This is, uh,
coming from a man who's had a lifetime of walking
with the Lord and a lifetime of seeing God's Word
work for many. We got to take a short break.
When we come back, we're going to dig into all
(12:40):
the doctor Chapman has to say here. What do you
do if you're married to the irresponsible spouse? Or what
do you do if you're in a controlling relationship or
a spouse that won't communicate at all, or even if
you're in a reality of an abusive relationship, we're going
to get to that and so much more. But when
we come back, the question that I think is on
everyone's mind that I'll ask Doctor Gary Chapman is why
(13:04):
not just walk away? You know, so often we say
don't walk away. Well, here's the question. Why not just
walk away? You don't change that dial. I promise you,
we're going to take up that topic and so much more.
Don't forget, social media is available to you today. So
if you want to give comments or questions, we're going
to use Facebook and Twitter for that. Uh, we want
(13:25):
to get as much content out of Doctor Chapman as
we can. So please go to Facebook at Equip Radio.
Twitter at Equip radio. Leave your comments and questions and
whatever you do, let a friend know that we're on
the air. Don't change that dial. So much more to come.
Next up on equip. Do you have questions about your
(13:47):
sexuality that no one seems to address? Whether it's sexual sin,
gender confusion, or issues in your marriage? Surrender Sexuality by
Doctor Julie Slattery has insights you need. She'll help you
to see that God wants to be invited into your
questions and struggles. And when you do, everything changes. Request
(14:08):
your copy with your gift of any amount. To equip,
simply call (888)Â 644-4144 or visit Equip Radio.com. Chris Brooks here
reminding you that today's program is pre-recorded and we won't
be taking your calls. Welcome back to Equipped with Chris Brooks.
(14:31):
You know, there are certain days when I really encourage
you to let someone know we're on the air. Today
is one of those days. We want to help marriages,
in particular marriages where people are ready to walk away
in their minds. Their bags are already packed. You can
be used by God today to rescue a marriage. Why
don't you let a friend or a family member know
(14:52):
we're on the air? Feel free to go on your
social media personal pages to share with folks that they
need to listen in to equip radio today. And if
we're not live in that area, don't despair. Just link
our website. Equip radio.org. That's. Radio. There they can listen
(15:13):
24 hours a day, seven days a week. We have
such a wonderful guest today, Doctor Gary Chapman. Doctor Chapman,
we're looking at your book, Loving your Spouse when you
feel like walking away. Subtitle real help for desperate hearts
in difficult marriages. Uh, one of the sections of your book,
you answer the question, why not just walk away again?
(15:34):
I love you for your honesty in saying, let's just
bring out to the open the elephant that's in the room.
So clearly, that's one of the the big questions of
not just non-Christians, but Christians today. And here's what you say.
You say ours has been called a throwaway society. What
do you mean by that? What's a throwaway society. And
(15:56):
why is that concept bad? As it pertains to marriage,
Doctor Chapman?
S2 (16:00):
Well, you know, in our culture, almost everything has a lifespan.
And then it's over. You know, even our cell phones,
you know, we have to get new cell phones and
then discard the other one. Uh, it's okay with material things,
but when it comes to relationships, uh, we can't just
discard them easily, because as long as they're alive, they're
(16:21):
still there. You can leave your spouse, you can walk away,
but they still are there. And if you have children,
you're going to bump into them on a regular basis.
And then there's going to be, you know, high school graduations.
There's going to be the wedding of your children. There's
going to, you know, divorce doesn't solve anything. It does
give you a little momentary, uh, release from the pressure
(16:43):
and the tension, but it creates a whole lot of
other problems. Yeah. And and, you know, uh, I fully
understand and engage with the feeling That there's no hope.
You know, I've tried everything and there's just no hope.
I remember when I felt that way in my marriage,
you know. And I said to God, I just I
don't I don't know what else to do. I've done
(17:04):
everything I know to do. And when I said that,
there came to my mind a visual image of Jesus
on his knees, washing the feet of his disciples. And
I heard God say to me, that is the problem
in your marriage. You do not have that attitude towards
your wife. Wow.
S1 (17:22):
Yeah. That's powerful. Hit me like.
S2 (17:24):
A ton of bricks. Chris. Oh, man.
S1 (17:26):
You quote in this book interaction, you had again another
one of your many, many interactions with a woman who
said to you, doctor, Doctor Chapman, this is two years
after her divorce. She said our marriage was bad, but
the divorce is even worse. Mhm. And I think that
there are going to be many. And again dealing with
elephants in the room, there are going to be many.
(17:47):
Doctor Chapman, there are going to hear us today and
say well there they go again. That's just another The
conversation among male evangelicals who are saying, just shut up
and stay married without being sensitive to the pain. Well,
let me just say that I hope that's not what
you're hearing, because this is not the tone of the conversation.
It is. Yes, marriage is God's plan. Fighting for difficult
(18:11):
marriages glorifies God, and and divorce is oftentimes far more
painful than people give any type of credit to. But
we're also saying at the same time, Doctor Chapman, but
yet we recognize the real pain in the marriage, and
we want to provide wisdom for relief to that pain.
(18:32):
And the belief that those things can change. Is that
is that an accurate summary of the tone?
S2 (18:37):
It is. Chris. You know, sometimes we think we only
have two options. One is just to stay in the marriage,
just stick it out and be miserable. And the other
is to get out and hope that things will get
better somewhere down the line.
S1 (18:52):
Yeah.
S2 (18:52):
Now, those are two options, to be sure, but they're
not the only options. There is the option of staying
in the marriage long enough to have a positive influence
on your spouse. Now, I know that many times we
feel like, well, I've tried everything. Just as I said,
I felt like I'd tried everything, you know, until God
worked in my heart and revealed to me I did
(19:15):
not have an attitude of serving my wife. And I
started asking her three questions. You know, honey, what can
I do to help you? How can I make your
life easier? And how can I be a better husband?
And my wife gave me answers and I started doing
those things. And within three months, her whole attitude changed
toward me. She started asking me those three questions. So,
(19:37):
you know, I've been to the bottom and here's the
deal we cannot change our spouse, okay? We've heard that
over and over and over. But here's what we don't hear.
You can influence your spouse. And the fact is, every
single day you influence your spouse, either for better or
for worse. Let me give you just a simple example, Chris. Uh,
(20:00):
you you come home from work, you walk in the house,
you go find your spouse, you give them a hug,
little kiss, ask them how their day is gone, have
a little conversation with them and then say, honey, what
can I do to help you this evening? Okay, you've
positively influenced your spouse. They're feeling better now about you.
But let's say you come home, you don't go find
(20:21):
your spouse. You go to the refrigerator, get you a drink,
flip on the TV, or flip on your computer and
get engaged. You know, just kind of unwinding from the day.
You've just influenced your spouse in a negative way. You've
just communicated they're not important in your life. So every
day we influence and you can influence your spouse. Whatever
(20:43):
their behavior, you can have a positive influence on them.
And that's the challenge of the Bible is to have
a positive influence, not just to sit there, not just
to endure, not just to put up with it, but
to do something led by God that has the potential
of influencing your spouse to change.
S1 (21:00):
Yeah. And that's why you say in this book, it
all starts with attitude. Yeah. That you have to take
control of your own attitude. You know, when you talk
about dealing with myths you mentioned for my environment determines
my state of mind. People cannot change. That's a myth.
In a desperate marriage, I only have two options. You
just talked about that. Some situations are hopeless. But, you know,
(21:22):
I just think an outflow of that is such a
powerful outflow of that is to recognize that in many,
many ways, it starts with you choosing to take control
of your attitude and actions and not giving that power
away to anyone. Being able to say, as you say
in your book, Doctor Chapman, that I'm responsible for my
(21:42):
own attitude. That's a tough thing. But that is, by
God's grace, a power that we don't have to give away,
do we?
S2 (21:50):
Absolutely. You know, we don't choose our feelings. The feelings
just grab us. But we choose our attitude. Attitude is
the way we think about something. And when we focus
on the negative aspects of what's going on in our
marriage relationship, then the negative gets bigger and bigger and bigger.
And every time you you think and you talk about
the negative part, it gets bigger and bigger. So we
(22:13):
have to think in terms of what might I do
with the help of God that has the potential for
changing this relationship?
S1 (22:22):
Yes.
S2 (22:22):
And you start looking for the positive things that you
might do. Now, you see, typically we preach to the spouse,
you know, you've got to stop doing this. You've got
to start doing this. And we preach to them and
I understand why. I mean, we we want them to change,
but spouses don't change. When you preach to them, preaching
becomes condemnation to them. You know, but you get you
(22:44):
and God line up against them. or really for them.
S1 (22:49):
To let me just say this, let me just say this.
If you would have said that in my church on
Sunday morning, you would have got a whole lot of amens,
because that was that was a a man's statement. And
I just think that we feel too often that we
can argue our spouses in the change. Yeah. And that's
men or woman. You know, you just can't do it.
All the yelling in the world is not what's going
(23:10):
to change. But again, when you take control of your
own heart, attitude and actions, you can begin to see change.
So much content there. But I want to talk about
the three categories in the book, because you lump three
categories of spouses together. And this is so important, and
I want to at least give an overview of each one.
One is the apathetic spouse. Secondly, the abusive spouse. Thirdly,
(23:34):
the disconnected spouse. So let's talk about the apathetic spouse.
What if you are living with a spouse who their
issue is that they are either irresponsible Responsible, or they're
a workaholic or they're depressed. What do you advise for people?
And I know that's such a myriad of issues, so
(23:54):
I can't expect you to be specific for each one.
But talk about in general, how do we speak to
or live with an apathetic spouse?
S2 (24:03):
I think, first of all, we might ask, why are
they apathetic? You know, for example, depression, what led to
their depression? Sometimes it's a situation in life that happened
to them, and they just the emotions just caved in
on them. And that's temporary. Sometimes if the situation changes,
the emotion lifts. Sometimes they got sick and they got
(24:25):
on a drug. And that is now the issue. Sometimes
it is a physical thing and sometimes that's where medication
can be helpful, you know. So there's different kinds of depression.
If you want to be a positive change agent in
a relationship like that, you try to find out how
what led them to where they are. Yeah. Then you
(24:46):
can begin to think in terms of what? What might
help bring them out.
S1 (24:49):
I love.
S2 (24:49):
That, you.
S1 (24:50):
Know. Yeah, I love that because I think that so
often we're dealing with symptoms instead of dealing with the
source root of the problem. So it's a great question
to start with saying what is at the root of this.
What is causing this person to either be a workaholic?
I know for me, um, you know, and I'm like
many men of my generation, growing up feeling like love
(25:13):
was based off of performance. And so a lot of
the workaholism is a product of feeling like I have
to prove my worth. But a lot of times it's
just being told, I love you in spite of your performance.
I mean, that may be the first time any man
hears that. I mean, there's a lot of men who
I know. Doctor Chapman didn't get that from dad didn't
(25:36):
get that from mom, didn't get that from grandparents. And
maybe a spouse might be the first person to say
to them, I love you in spite of or regardless
of your performance. Listen, we're going to come back. Uh,
that music means we have to take a short break.
I promise you, we're going to come back with more, uh,
wisdom from Doctor Chapman. Not only about the, uh, subjects
(25:59):
we talk about now, but we're going to try to
fill some of your questions as well. Go to social media,
equip radio, Facebook, and Twitter for some new folks. We're
going to give away free copies of Doctor Chapman's book.
Don't change that dial. The best is yet to come.
Next up on equip. As a dad, a friend, and
a neighbor, I share your concerns over the growing problems
(26:20):
in our culture. That's why on equip we tackle the
tough issues learning how to respond with grace and truth.
We're looking for like minded partners to stand with us.
Would you be willing to become an Equipper today? In
this role, you'll give a monthly donation to support the
Ministry of Equip and as an Equipper, you'll receive insider benefits,
such as a bi weekly email that contains pastoral messages
(26:40):
prepared just for you. Become an equipper today by calling
888644 4144 or go to equip radio.org. Chris Brooks here
reminding you that today's program is pre-recorded. While we won't
be taking calls, we do want to connect with you
on social media. Welcome back folks. I'm so grateful for
each and every one of you who listen to equip
(27:02):
each and every day. Want to say thank you to
our generous donors? Our partners make this show possible day
by day, equipping you to more effectively live, share, and
defend your faith. Today's guest is Doctor Gary Chapman. We're
talking about loving your spouse when you feel like walking away.
Isn't that a reality for so many? And Doctor Chapman,
(27:22):
you begin to lay out, I think, just a good
framework for how we can address all of these categories
of difficult marriages and difficult spouses. First, you talked about
recognizing and rejecting the myths that often hold us captive,
but then you begin to talk about taking Responsibility for
our own behavior and better understanding our spouse's behavior. That's
(27:45):
so critical, isn't it?
S2 (27:46):
Well, it is. Our attitude, first of all, needs to
focus on what can I do that will be positive,
that has a potential for doing something good and then
learning our spouse. You know, we talked before the break
about the workaholic. Uh, and you're exactly right that many
times men are workaholics because their whole idea is that
(28:08):
their worth is based on their performance. But here's another
aspect of that. Maybe his love language is words of affirmation,
and at work he gets words of affirmation, but he
comes home. And because he comes home at 8:00 or
830 at night and the wife is on his case
because you should have been home earlier, you don't have
(28:28):
to work these long hours. Da da da da da.
She's giving him negative words. Well, why would he want
to come home? Yeah, he gets positive words at work.
He comes home and the wife gives him negative words,
you know. So I think understanding the person's love language
will help you know how to be a more positive influence,
(28:49):
rather than a part of the problem. You know, when
she criticizes him, she's just exasperating the problem and driving
him further away. So understanding why the person does what
they do and understand their love language can help you
be a more positive influence.
S1 (29:05):
And you're talking about influence and you keep coming back
to this. We cannot control or change our spouse's behavior
by force, but we can influence them. And we do
as you say we do each and every day. But
I want to just kind of turn the page, if
I could, to Doctor Chapman something that is real and
relevant in the moment that we live in. What we're
finding in this hour of church history is that many
(29:28):
women have gained a voice and taken an opportunity to
share about the abuses that they've experienced, the mistreatment they've experienced,
oftentimes at the hands of those who should have loved
them and honored them more. So what do you say
to the spouse who is in an abusive relationship? And
I guess out of fairness, I should expand this because
(29:50):
nowadays we're seeing women abuse men as well as men
abusing women. So I don't want to I want to
make sure I'm not being insensitive. But how do you
advise or what what wisdom and counsel do you give
to those in that type of relationship?
S2 (30:06):
Well, let me say first of all, Chris, that I
don't think that physical abuse or sexual abuse should ever
be accepted behavior in a marriage relationship or out of
a marriage relationship for that matter. And the earlier you
deal with this in a marriage relationship, the better. See,
what happens is many times a couple gets married and
(30:28):
after the in-love experience wears off, the husband goes back
to being normal. Okay. And if his behavior has been
to be physically abusive to people in his life. When
he gets angry, then he will. He will do that
to his wife and the first time he has an
action of physical abuse or sexual abuse, that's the time
(30:52):
for her to say, you know, honey, I don't know
what's going on here, but I didn't sign up for this.
And this is not acceptable behavior. You know, tough love
needs to come early in which she's saying, no, no, no, no, no,
I will not experience this again. If you're not willing
to get help with this, then I'm going to. And
I would say, first of all, you go to a counselor,
(31:14):
talk to a counselor. Don't try to make these decisions
just on your own. Um, but we should never accept
that kind of behavior. And oftentimes, of course, it's later
in the marriage when you find out that a husband,
for example, has sexually abused one of your children. I mean,
this is terrible and should never, ever be acceptable behavior.
(31:35):
You don't just sit there. He has to deal with this.
You cannot go on. Yes. So I think, you know.
S1 (31:43):
And, Doctor Chapman, if I could just for a moment,
I hate to interrupt, because I want you to come
back to exactly where you left off, but I think
it's appropriate for us to also start with those who
are pre-married, those who are engaged, those who are single
and considering marrying someone. If you see these signs that
Doctor Chapman is talking about someone who has explosive anger,
(32:06):
someone who is physically abusive of the people in their lives,
someone who has a sexual addiction, all of these things.
I would say that so often what blows my mind
are singles who live as if they're under the same
obligation as marrieds. You have the freedom as a single
to run. You have the freedom as a single to
(32:28):
call it off. And I think that for more often
than not, Doctor Chapman, what I've seen is that very
rarely do these type of behaviors come out of the
blue in a marriage. They're sometimes if that does happen,
but a lot of times there are signs that are
there pre marriage. And so I just wanted to just
(32:48):
insert that if you are not married and you're seeing
these signs then you push the pause button or you
totally walk away but don't ignore them.
S2 (32:57):
That's a good word Chris. And not only that kind
of behavior toward you when you're dating, but that kind
of behavior toward their parents or toward their siblings or
toward people with whom they work. Because if they're explosive
in those other situations, they will eventually be explosive toward you.
So when you see that in a dating relationship, that
(33:18):
is a red flag waving that says, don't move into
marriage with this person. Now, if you can, if they
will go for help, I mean, there's always help. Okay.
If they're willing to go for counseling and really dig
into this issue, find out where that anger is coming
from and how the behavior they're having. And let them
discover this is this is not good. They're not going
(33:40):
to make it in life with this kind of behavior. Uh,
but if you if they if they don't make any
efforts to deal with that, then it's a deal breaker
for me as a single. It's a deal breaker as
a married who faces that sort of thing. It's not
that we're going to abandon them. Okay. We made a
commitment to them. We're not going to abandon them, but
we're not going to sit there and let that behavior
(34:01):
continue and be a part of it. We're going to
step out of that situation and say to them, I
am not abandoning you, but I love you too much
to do nothing. And unless you're willing to deal with this,
then I'm not going to live with you right now.
You know, divorce separation can be a positive thing if
it's done in that manner. But most of the time
(34:24):
we just put up with it for again and again
and again and again. And finally we get so burned
out with all of it that we think will divorce
is the only way. And so we move out, not
as a redemptive matter. We we move out as just
abandoning them. So, uh, the Christian perspective is whatever action
we take should be loving action. That is, it should
(34:45):
be action designed to influence them in a positive way.
S1 (34:49):
You know, if there is an unrepentant heart, I would
even say to that these things can get legal as well.
We have to recognize that if your life is in danger,
if the if the lives of your children are in
harm's way, then you have to get law enforcement involved
at times to be able to protect you and to
(35:09):
keep you safe. But again, all with the hopes of repentance. See,
this is, I think, what makes the gospel so unique
is there is both accountability and a hope for restoration
and repentance. And so what Doctor Chapman and I are
communicating is this high level of accountability while still loving
and hoping for restoration. If somehow those two things can
(35:33):
come together. I believe that God honors that. You know,
I want to speak for just a moment, Doctor Chapman,
to fellow pastors that are out there as well. For
the past 8 or 9 years, our church has dedicated
October to domestic violence awareness, and we have talked about
it openly, recognizing that if the statistics are true for
our congregation, we have a relatively large congregation you're talking
(35:56):
about 1 in 3 women in our church have experienced
or are currently experiencing abuse. Oftentimes, they're doing it in silence.
Pastors to overlook that is nothing short of negligence. So
I would say maybe you want to task if you're
a pastor, someone within your ministry, a woman that is
trusted and respected to be a resource as well. A
(36:18):
group of women can form a team to just have
materials that are available that say, what do you do
if domestic violence is a part of your reality. Where's
a safe place to call? What are the domestic Christian
domestic violence ministries that are out there to be able
to just have a safe place to reach out and
(36:42):
to call is so critical, so important. I just feel,
Doctor Chapman, our churches need to make sure we're mobilized
for this reality and not just living in denial.
S2 (36:52):
Well, I think that's true, Chris. And I think so
many churches really do not address this issue. And so
the church is silent, just as sometimes just as sometimes
the wives are silent and it doesn't go away. It
always gets worse. It doesn't just get better with the
passing of time. It only gets better if there's some
influence on that person that moves them in a different direction.
S1 (37:16):
Yes, and Doctor Chapman does a great job in his
book of giving resources. You have, uh, in, uh, in
chapter nine, you have a list of resources, a help
line that if folks can call. And I would just
advise pastors and leaders who say, you know what, we
have not made this an issue. Let me just say,
Doctor Chapman, it's not only going to get worse in
(37:37):
individual relationships. I just think this is something that the
culture is not going to let go of. No, I
think we, as we as pastors, have to make sure
that we don't sit back and just hope that somehow
our church is unscathed by this. We need to make
sure we're addressing it head on. And this resource, loving
your spouse when you feel like walking away, has an
(37:58):
entire section that's dedicated to what do I do if
I'm if I'm living with an abusive spouse or if
I have an abusive spouse? Pastors get this for you,
your elders, your leadership team, your staff. Read through it
together as a group. Read and come up with a
game plan proactively.
S2 (38:19):
Good word Chris. I hope pastors who are listening will
take that seriously.
S1 (38:23):
And let me just say too, if we could before
we go on to the next group. Doctor Chapman, just
speak to men for just a moment, because there's a
lot of men and we know the statistics that typically
what we find with abusive men is that they themselves
were abused, or they come from families where abuse was
a pattern. And so if you're a man and you say,
I don't want to be this guy, and I've said
(38:44):
across from many guys who have said to me, Pastor Chris,
I don't want to be this guy. I don't want
to be. I hate when my anger is explosive. I
hate when I abuse. I want to be different, man.
Be proactive and get help. And this is where men's
ministry Doctor Chapman comes in big time. And and I
(39:05):
think this is where repentance and acknowledging the own issues
in your own life to sin patterns in your own
life is very huge for men.
S2 (39:13):
I think that's the first step, Chris, is to acknowledge
that I have a problem, that this is not acceptable behaviour,
that I really don't like this about myself. I'm willing
to I apologize, but it's not just apologizing. I'm willing
to get help because over and over, a person who
has been abusive will apologize. But then two months later,
(39:34):
they do the same thing again. Two months later, they
do the same thing, and after every one, they apologize.
The difficulty is they don't follow through and get help
to change that behavior. So certainly apologizing is the first
step in acknowledging to yourself that you don't like this
about yourself and then take steps to deal with it.
And yes, that can be reading books. But I think
(39:56):
for most guys, it's going to take sitting down with
a counselor or a trusted, mature person sharing that problem
and let them help you and let God help you
break the chains of that behavior.
S1 (40:08):
That's good stuff. Hopefully it's helping couples that are listening.
And if you're a men's ministry director, get the book
as well. Read through it with your many, your men's ministry.
And why don't you be brave enough as a men's
ministry director to maybe ask men Man who's struggling with this.
And if you're struggling with this, we want to create
a safe place for you as well, to come to
(40:29):
one of our men's ministry leaders so you can get help.
We have to be proactive, and we got to love
people enough not to be silent. When we come back,
we're going to ask Doctor Chapman about the disconnected spouse.
It's going to help you tremendously. Don't forget social media.
Facebook and Twitter are available for you. We'll be right
back with more after this. The enemy loves to take
(40:50):
our sexual struggles and build strongholds that separate us from God.
We start believing lies like we can't go to church
anymore or that God couldn't possibly love us. Surrender Sexuality
by Julie Slattery breaks down those barriers and shows you
the path to freedom without shame and into the welcoming
(41:10):
arms of Jesus. We'll send you a copy with our
thanks when you support equip this month. Simply call 888644
4144 or visit equip Radio. Today's program has been pre-recorded
so our phone lines are not open. Welcome back to
(41:32):
equipped with Chris Brooks. It's never enough time when you
have Doctor Gary Chapman on the hot seat. He does
so well with sharing why we should celebrate marriage. And
what do we do when we face a difficult seasons
or the difficult realities and tough marriages? We want folks
out there to know that we love you. We're praying
for you. And as a matter of fact, we want
(41:53):
to be a blessing to you. So here's what we're
going to do. We're always looking to add new friends
to our social media community. Uh, we love that community
because it allows us to keep the conversation going even
after the broadcast is off the air. So if you
would join that community, we're going to pick five new
names on Facebook or Twitter. New friends that say, I
(42:14):
need this resource. If you can like our page for
the first time, Facebook or Twitter, go there now. We'll
pick five new names. We'll let you know who you are,
and we'll send you a copy of this wonderful resource.
Loving your spouse when you feel like walking away. Real
help for desperate hearts in difficult marriages. Doctor Chapman, what
(42:35):
do you do when you have a spouse that just
lacks communication skills or just the ability to communicate effectively,
and you feel like your emotional tank is on empty?
S2 (42:48):
You know, Chris, I think again, one of the first
things is to ask yourself why? Why is my spouse
reticent to talk and share and discuss things? It can
be traced to the home in which they grew up,
where they were told, you know, children don't talk. And
maybe that was true throughout the teenage years, and the
parents never listened to them, so they just learned not
(43:10):
to talk. It could also be your own response to
them that when they do talk, you correct them and say, well, no,
that's not right. No no no no no no I
don't no I don't agree with that. Well particularly if
they don't have a good self-image anyway. And then you disagree.
When they do talk they learn from you that it's
(43:32):
best not to talk. So trying to get at what's
behind their behavior is always an important step. Now, you
can't always determine that I understand, but it's worth an effort.
And even to ask them, why do you think it
is that when I ask you a question many times,
you don't ever answer me. Sometimes you just walk out
(43:53):
of the room. Why do you think you respond that way?
And if you'll just sit there and listen, not preach
them a sermon, but listen, they may well answer that question,
and you may well discover something about your spouse you
never knew. You can't make someone talk, but you can
(44:13):
try to discover what's behind their lack of communication.
S1 (44:17):
Yes. You know, one of the things I love that
you do at the end of each chapter that I
should have mentioned earlier, Doctor Chapman, is that there is
a small section at the end of each chapter that says,
for further help, for further help. And you have resources
in each chapter for folks to turn to to get
the help that they need. And and like you said,
(44:39):
sometimes when you look into the history or when you
begin to ask the question, why is the person that way?
What you find is that there's brokenness, there's abuse. They
they need help. And I like to say this to
couples and Doctor Chapman, I love to hear you just
speak about this. Not every issue in a marriage is
the issue of the marriage. Sometimes it's issues related to
(45:01):
the individual, isn't it?
S2 (45:03):
Absolutely. And because all of us grew up in a
culture and we were influenced by our parents or someone
who served as our parents, we were influenced by all
the things that happened in our past, and we bring
all of that into marriage. And most of the time
we've never processed our history. It's just our history. And
(45:24):
we've been influenced by it. And we respond in certain
ways because of it. And we don't even understand it
ourselves as an individual. It's good for all of us
to ask, you know, how did I get to be
the way I am? What happened in my life that
caused me to be this way or that way? Self
understanding can be a good step in the process of
(45:47):
changing things because yes, we are influenced by our our history,
but we're not controlled by our history. We're humans and
we can make changes. We don't have to always be angry, hateful,
mean people. And we don't ever, always have to be noncommunicating.
You know, we can learn how to grow more in
(46:08):
the skills that make a healthy marriage relationship.
S1 (46:12):
Doctor Chapman, you've given us quite a book to read.
I think it's obvious at this point that this is
not one of those casual reads. You take on some
pretty heavy issues. These are issues with enormous consequences for
the marriage, but you do so with hope. Now, this
is a book that requires folks to take action. It's
not a book that minimizes your pain, but it is
(46:34):
a book that empowers you to know that you can
take control of your attitude. And if you can just
overcome the myths, step into the realities. You can see
powerful change and influence not only of your spouse, but
in your marriage as well. Get a copy of Loving
Your Spouse When You Feel Like Walking Away. We'll give
away five free copies to new friends that like us
(46:57):
on Facebook and Twitter. Doctor Chapman, thank you for joining
me today.
S2 (47:01):
Thanks, Chris. Always enjoy being with you folks.
S1 (47:04):
I can't wait until we're together again next time. Remember,
equipped with Chris Brooks is a production of Moody Radio,
a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
Hey friends, please enjoy this encore presentation of equipped with
Chris Brooks. Hey there folks, welcome to another exciting edition
of equipped with Chris Brooks! I am so glad that
you've tuned in. Why don't you strap on your seat belt?
We're going to navigate through the contours of culture, as always,
with the lens of the biblical worldview on. But before
we do that, let me remind you, this is the
(00:38):
day that the Lord has made. He has given it
as a gift so that you and I might rejoice
and be glad in it. So let's do just that.
Let's follow the words of the Apostle Paul. Let's rejoice
in the Lord always. And again I say, rejoice! I
hope you're having an absolutely amazing day. I know for
many of us, we start today a little bit sluggish,
(01:00):
so hopefully quip can be your second cup of coffee
this morning, get you going and get you excited, reminding
you that our God reigns and that he is faithful.
And you know, I love to meditate on the fact
that he promises to be Emmanuel, God with us, Never leaving,
never forsaking. So no matter what you're going through, know this.
You're not alone. God's in there with you. And that
(01:22):
he promises that if you turn to him, he will
give you the strength and the grace that you need
to not only survive, but to thrive for his name's sake.
And so be encouraged today. Today we're going to take
on a very important, and I think, very timely topic.
I want to talk to you today about living in
a painful and difficult marriage. Many of you that are
(01:42):
listening to me right now, you have deep Christian convictions.
And what do you do when you have a deep
conviction that divorce is not an option? That to honor
God means to sustain your marriage, but your marriage is
in a desperate, desperate situation and season. You know, no
marriage starts out like that. Most marriages start out with
(02:04):
dreams of happiness, high hopes of happiness. But along the way,
for millions and millions of couples across the country, those
dreams of happiness were quickly dashed, and now they find
themselves living in a reality of a marriage that is
full of misery. So how do we hold on to
God's promise? And what practical things can we do to
(02:28):
continue to love our spouse when we feel like walking away? Well,
this is too important of a topic for me to
take on by myself. I'm so grateful for my guests today.
I've invited along a friend of this ministry and a
friend for many of us. He's counseled us through his books,
through his talks, through his marriage, himself, walking through the
(02:49):
various stages of marriage in a public way. And we're
grateful for Doctor Gary Chapman. He's a well-known marriage counselor,
director of Marriage Seminars. He has written over 25 books,
including his number one New York Times bestseller, The Five
Love Languages we're Proud To. He's a graduate of the
Moody Bible Institute. He's also just a good friend who
(03:12):
takes time out to join us occasionally to help couples
and families to have the marriage and the family they've
always wanted and dreamed of. Doctor Chapman, how are you today?
S2 (03:23):
I am doing well, Chris, and it's great to be
back with you again, especially on this topic, because I've
been there. I know what it is to be married
and miserable. And this, this book grew out of not
only my own experience, but also the experience of scores
and scores of couples that I've worked with through the years.
S1 (03:41):
Well, I appreciate you being transparent and honest. You always are.
So let's get into the story of this book in
many ways. And I've seen this even in my own
pastoral ministry. Sermons and books are often sparked or inspired
because of encounters we have with people. And you start
the book talking about an encounter you had with a
very dear, sweet sister who was married to an alcoholic husband.
(04:05):
Talk about that encounter and how that sparked this book.
S2 (04:10):
Well, you know, this is a very common problem in
our society, as you well know, Chris. Alcoholism and also
drug abuse. The reality is, of course, that we often
feel like if this is the case, then there's just
no hope in the relationship. And we have the idea
that an alcoholic will never change. They'll always be an alcoholic.
(04:31):
The reality is, our libraries are filled with books of
people who used to be alcoholics and drug addicts, and
Christ changed their life and turned them around. And, you know,
life is just totally different. But it's very difficult when
you're living with someone in that situation. And the content
of this book is what I use, not only with
(04:52):
that lady, but with a lot of other people is,
first of all, we have to recognize that change is
possible because we give up hope when we think there's
no change. You know, we give up hope. And the
reality is that if you're willing to do your part
in terms of Loving them. First of all, loving them
and particularly in the right love language and then also
(05:15):
loving them enough not to sit still, but to say
to them, I love you too much to sit here
and do nothing. And therefore I hope you know that
I love you. And therefore here's what I'm going to do.
And then you tell them what you're going to do.
You know, you're inviting them to counseling, but if they're
not going, then you're not going to just sit there.
(05:36):
You're going to take a step. I call it tough love.
And chances are, it's in the tough love situation that
they will be willing to go for counseling and get help.
But sometimes what happens is we try tough love before
we before we try tender love. So I say love
them for six months. No matter how they treat you.
(05:57):
Speak their love language for six months and then say
to them, you know, I hope you know that I
love you. Do you feel like I love you? And
they're going to say, yeah. Oh yeah. It's been wonderful
the last six months. We say, you know, honey, I've
asked you many times to deal with this, and you
never have. And I feel like you don't love me.
That if you love me, you'd be willing to do something,
(06:19):
you know, to deal with this issue. And therefore, uh,
I'm going to give one, one opportunity. I'm going to
ask if you will go and you tell them where
you want them to go, the counseling or the treatment
center you want them to go. But if you're not
willing to do that, I'm going to move in with
my mother because I love you too much to sit
here and do nothing. And you, when you follow that
(06:41):
tender love. Six months of tender love with tough love.
Now they've got something that they're going to miss. Now
they're saying, oh, man. Oh, no. Is she going to
walk away? Yeah. And you say to them, I'm not
abandoning you. I just love you too much to sit
here and do nothing. Whenever you're ready to deal with this,
then I'll be willing to work with you. And we'll
(07:02):
get counseling. And we can. We can try to rebuild
our marriage. So when they feel like they're about to
lose something, that's when they typically go for treatment, and
that's when things can begin to change.
S1 (07:15):
You know, this book has been just a real powerful
book to me because it's so different in many ways
than the tone in some ways, of your other books
you really take on, I think just directly, the reality
of the spouse who lives with this dilemma. On the
one hand, I have a deep commitment to honoring Christ.
(07:38):
I want to honor Christ. On the other hand, I
have the reality of living in a miserable marriage. And
what you're trying to communicate, it seems to me, Doctor Chapman,
through this book, is both a reality as well as hopefulness.
Is that right?
S2 (07:55):
That is right. I'm trying to be very, very honest
about the difficulty. In what? I'm trying to be honest
about the desperateness that many people feel, because in the book,
you know, I deal with such things as the irresponsible spouse.
I mean, they won't work, you know, they just lose
one job after another and they won't work. And then
(08:16):
there's the workaholic who's never at home. How can you
have a relationship with somebody that's never at home? And
then there's a controlling spouse, you know, who's just they
have to have the final word on everything, and whatever
they say is what's going to be like. And you
just feel like a child, you know? And the spouse
that won't talk to you, you know, they're just silent.
You can ask questions. They just sit there and then,
(08:37):
you know, the verbally abusive spouse, the physically abusive spouse.
I mean, those two are just hard, hard, hard situations.
Or a spouse who was sexually abused as a child,
and they brought that into the marriage and never dealt
with it. Or maybe they are being abusive themselves in
that area. Uh, or the unfaithful spouse, you know, they've
(08:57):
had an affair, man, that strikes at the heart of
a marriage. And and then the alcoholic, the drug, abusive spouse.
We just talked about the depressed spouse. I mean, you know,
you can almost get depressed just listening to that list
I just gave.
S1 (09:11):
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
S2 (09:13):
So I'm trying to deal with real issues, but I'm
trying to bring hope into the situation because often, uh,
we've lost hope when we live with a spouse that
has one of these difficulties.
S1 (09:25):
You say in your book here, and I think this
is important, you say, I'm under no illusion that I
can provide a magic formula for bringing healing to all
such marriages. However, I do believe, based on my own
experience and counseling research in the field and sound moral principles,
that there is hope for the hardest of marriages. So,
(09:46):
like I said, on the one hand, there is this
communication of the reality, a reality that far too often
is overlooked or marginalized. On the other hand, you've not
lost sight of the hope that is found in Christ Jesus.
S2 (10:00):
Yeah, absolutely. You know, I talk in the book about
four different myths that people often have.
S1 (10:06):
Yeah.
S2 (10:06):
And one of them is that my spouse determines my well-being.
You know that their behavior determines whether I'm going to
be happy or not. No no no no no no.
We are individuals and we have a relationship with God.
I don't care how bad your spouse is or how
how addicted they are to this behavior or that behavior.
(10:27):
That does not determine your well-being. You and God have
a relationship. And yes, you may be married to an alcoholic,
and you may have a lot of painful feelings about
the whole thing. But you're certainly you know, your environment
does affect you, but your environment does not control you.
You're a person made in the image of God, and
(10:48):
you have tremendous abilities to help other people, including your spouse. So,
you know, you you walk with God. You let God
use your life. Your your well being is not determined
by your spouse. It's it's influenced by your spouse, but
it's not determined by your spouse. That's the that's the
first issue, I think. A second one, I think, Chris,
is the fact that I alluded to earlier and that
(11:09):
is that people can change. I don't care what behavior
they have. People can change with the help of God.
God is in the business of transforming people's lives. You know, uh,
Saint Augustine once lived for pleasure. He sought his his
satisfaction through sinful sexual behavior. I mean, he lived a
horrible life, and his mother prayed for him. You know,
(11:31):
his mother prayed for him. His mother prayed for him,
and he became a model of godliness. I mean, we
think of Saint Saint Augustine, man, this is, you know,
a great man. Listen, God has the potential of changing
any man and any woman. I don't care what their
behavior is. I don't care what they've been trapped in.
God has the ability to change people. You can't change them.
But you can cooperate with God and influence them. And
(11:55):
that's one of the messages of the book.
S1 (11:58):
Well, you know, and again, what you're bringing to the table,
Doctor Chapman is both research. You've seen it firsthand. So
this is more than just theory, though. You've seen it firsthand.
You've lived it. Lived it as you alluded to. Seasons
of marriage and misery and seeing God turn it around.
So I think it's important to make sure people understand
(12:19):
that we're going to give away, give out a lot
of practical wisdom today. But this is more than just theory.
This is more than just pop psychology. This is, uh,
coming from a man who's had a lifetime of walking
with the Lord and a lifetime of seeing God's Word
work for many. We got to take a short break.
When we come back, we're going to dig into all
(12:40):
the doctor Chapman has to say here. What do you
do if you're married to the irresponsible spouse? Or what
do you do if you're in a controlling relationship or
a spouse that won't communicate at all, or even if
you're in a reality of an abusive relationship, we're going
to get to that and so much more. But when
we come back, the question that I think is on
everyone's mind that I'll ask Doctor Gary Chapman is why
(13:04):
not just walk away? You know, so often we say
don't walk away. Well, here's the question. Why not just
walk away? You don't change that dial. I promise you,
we're going to take up that topic and so much more.
Don't forget, social media is available to you today. So
if you want to give comments or questions, we're going
to use Facebook and Twitter for that. Uh, we want
(13:25):
to get as much content out of Doctor Chapman as
we can. So please go to Facebook at Equip Radio.
Twitter at Equip radio. Leave your comments and questions and
whatever you do, let a friend know that we're on
the air. Don't change that dial. So much more to come.
Next up on equip. Do you have questions about your
(13:47):
sexuality that no one seems to address? Whether it's sexual sin,
gender confusion, or issues in your marriage? Surrender Sexuality by
Doctor Julie Slattery has insights you need. She'll help you
to see that God wants to be invited into your
questions and struggles. And when you do, everything changes. Request
(14:08):
your copy with your gift of any amount. To equip,
simply call (888)Â 644-4144 or visit Equip Radio.com. Chris Brooks here
reminding you that today's program is pre-recorded and we won't
be taking your calls. Welcome back to Equipped with Chris Brooks.
(14:31):
You know, there are certain days when I really encourage
you to let someone know we're on the air. Today
is one of those days. We want to help marriages,
in particular marriages where people are ready to walk away
in their minds. Their bags are already packed. You can
be used by God today to rescue a marriage. Why
don't you let a friend or a family member know
(14:52):
we're on the air? Feel free to go on your
social media personal pages to share with folks that they
need to listen in to equip radio today. And if
we're not live in that area, don't despair. Just link
our website. Equip radio.org. That's. Radio. There they can listen
(15:13):
24 hours a day, seven days a week. We have
such a wonderful guest today, Doctor Gary Chapman. Doctor Chapman,
we're looking at your book, Loving your Spouse when you
feel like walking away. Subtitle real help for desperate hearts
in difficult marriages. Uh, one of the sections of your book,
you answer the question, why not just walk away again?
(15:34):
I love you for your honesty in saying, let's just
bring out to the open the elephant that's in the room.
So clearly, that's one of the the big questions of
not just non-Christians, but Christians today. And here's what you say.
You say ours has been called a throwaway society. What
do you mean by that? What's a throwaway society. And
(15:56):
why is that concept bad? As it pertains to marriage,
Doctor Chapman?
S2 (16:00):
Well, you know, in our culture, almost everything has a lifespan.
And then it's over. You know, even our cell phones,
you know, we have to get new cell phones and
then discard the other one. Uh, it's okay with material things,
but when it comes to relationships, uh, we can't just
discard them easily, because as long as they're alive, they're
(16:21):
still there. You can leave your spouse, you can walk away,
but they still are there. And if you have children,
you're going to bump into them on a regular basis.
And then there's going to be, you know, high school graduations.
There's going to be the wedding of your children. There's
going to, you know, divorce doesn't solve anything. It does
give you a little momentary, uh, release from the pressure
(16:43):
and the tension, but it creates a whole lot of
other problems. Yeah. And and, you know, uh, I fully
understand and engage with the feeling That there's no hope.
You know, I've tried everything and there's just no hope.
I remember when I felt that way in my marriage,
you know. And I said to God, I just I
don't I don't know what else to do. I've done
(17:04):
everything I know to do. And when I said that,
there came to my mind a visual image of Jesus
on his knees, washing the feet of his disciples. And
I heard God say to me, that is the problem
in your marriage. You do not have that attitude towards
your wife. Wow.
S1 (17:22):
Yeah. That's powerful. Hit me like.
S2 (17:24):
A ton of bricks. Chris. Oh, man.
S1 (17:26):
You quote in this book interaction, you had again another
one of your many, many interactions with a woman who
said to you, doctor, Doctor Chapman, this is two years
after her divorce. She said our marriage was bad, but
the divorce is even worse. Mhm. And I think that
there are going to be many. And again dealing with
elephants in the room, there are going to be many.
(17:47):
Doctor Chapman, there are going to hear us today and
say well there they go again. That's just another The
conversation among male evangelicals who are saying, just shut up
and stay married without being sensitive to the pain. Well,
let me just say that I hope that's not what
you're hearing, because this is not the tone of the conversation.
It is. Yes, marriage is God's plan. Fighting for difficult
(18:11):
marriages glorifies God, and and divorce is oftentimes far more
painful than people give any type of credit to. But
we're also saying at the same time, Doctor Chapman, but
yet we recognize the real pain in the marriage, and
we want to provide wisdom for relief to that pain.
(18:32):
And the belief that those things can change. Is that
is that an accurate summary of the tone?
S2 (18:37):
It is. Chris. You know, sometimes we think we only
have two options. One is just to stay in the marriage,
just stick it out and be miserable. And the other
is to get out and hope that things will get
better somewhere down the line.
S1 (18:52):
Yeah.
S2 (18:52):
Now, those are two options, to be sure, but they're
not the only options. There is the option of staying
in the marriage long enough to have a positive influence
on your spouse. Now, I know that many times we
feel like, well, I've tried everything. Just as I said,
I felt like I'd tried everything, you know, until God
worked in my heart and revealed to me I did
(19:15):
not have an attitude of serving my wife. And I
started asking her three questions. You know, honey, what can
I do to help you? How can I make your
life easier? And how can I be a better husband?
And my wife gave me answers and I started doing
those things. And within three months, her whole attitude changed
toward me. She started asking me those three questions. So,
(19:37):
you know, I've been to the bottom and here's the
deal we cannot change our spouse, okay? We've heard that
over and over and over. But here's what we don't hear.
You can influence your spouse. And the fact is, every
single day you influence your spouse, either for better or
for worse. Let me give you just a simple example, Chris. Uh,
(20:00):
you you come home from work, you walk in the house,
you go find your spouse, you give them a hug,
little kiss, ask them how their day is gone, have
a little conversation with them and then say, honey, what
can I do to help you this evening? Okay, you've
positively influenced your spouse. They're feeling better now about you.
But let's say you come home, you don't go find
(20:21):
your spouse. You go to the refrigerator, get you a drink,
flip on the TV, or flip on your computer and
get engaged. You know, just kind of unwinding from the day.
You've just influenced your spouse in a negative way. You've
just communicated they're not important in your life. So every
day we influence and you can influence your spouse. Whatever
(20:43):
their behavior, you can have a positive influence on them.
And that's the challenge of the Bible is to have
a positive influence, not just to sit there, not just
to endure, not just to put up with it, but
to do something led by God that has the potential
of influencing your spouse to change.
S1 (21:00):
Yeah. And that's why you say in this book, it
all starts with attitude. Yeah. That you have to take
control of your own attitude. You know, when you talk
about dealing with myths you mentioned for my environment determines
my state of mind. People cannot change. That's a myth.
In a desperate marriage, I only have two options. You
just talked about that. Some situations are hopeless. But, you know,
(21:22):
I just think an outflow of that is such a
powerful outflow of that is to recognize that in many,
many ways, it starts with you choosing to take control
of your attitude and actions and not giving that power
away to anyone. Being able to say, as you say
in your book, Doctor Chapman, that I'm responsible for my
(21:42):
own attitude. That's a tough thing. But that is, by
God's grace, a power that we don't have to give away,
do we?
S2 (21:50):
Absolutely. You know, we don't choose our feelings. The feelings
just grab us. But we choose our attitude. Attitude is
the way we think about something. And when we focus
on the negative aspects of what's going on in our
marriage relationship, then the negative gets bigger and bigger and bigger.
And every time you you think and you talk about
the negative part, it gets bigger and bigger. So we
(22:13):
have to think in terms of what might I do
with the help of God that has the potential for
changing this relationship?
S1 (22:22):
Yes.
S2 (22:22):
And you start looking for the positive things that you
might do. Now, you see, typically we preach to the spouse,
you know, you've got to stop doing this. You've got
to start doing this. And we preach to them and
I understand why. I mean, we we want them to change,
but spouses don't change. When you preach to them, preaching
becomes condemnation to them. You know, but you get you
(22:44):
and God line up against them. or really for them.
S1 (22:49):
To let me just say this, let me just say this.
If you would have said that in my church on
Sunday morning, you would have got a whole lot of amens,
because that was that was a a man's statement. And
I just think that we feel too often that we
can argue our spouses in the change. Yeah. And that's
men or woman. You know, you just can't do it.
All the yelling in the world is not what's going
(23:10):
to change. But again, when you take control of your
own heart, attitude and actions, you can begin to see change.
So much content there. But I want to talk about
the three categories in the book, because you lump three
categories of spouses together. And this is so important, and
I want to at least give an overview of each one.
One is the apathetic spouse. Secondly, the abusive spouse. Thirdly,
(23:34):
the disconnected spouse. So let's talk about the apathetic spouse.
What if you are living with a spouse who their
issue is that they are either irresponsible Responsible, or they're
a workaholic or they're depressed. What do you advise for people?
And I know that's such a myriad of issues, so
(23:54):
I can't expect you to be specific for each one.
But talk about in general, how do we speak to
or live with an apathetic spouse?
S2 (24:03):
I think, first of all, we might ask, why are
they apathetic? You know, for example, depression, what led to
their depression? Sometimes it's a situation in life that happened
to them, and they just the emotions just caved in
on them. And that's temporary. Sometimes if the situation changes,
the emotion lifts. Sometimes they got sick and they got
(24:25):
on a drug. And that is now the issue. Sometimes
it is a physical thing and sometimes that's where medication
can be helpful, you know. So there's different kinds of depression.
If you want to be a positive change agent in
a relationship like that, you try to find out how
what led them to where they are. Yeah. Then you
(24:46):
can begin to think in terms of what? What might
help bring them out.
S1 (24:49):
I love.
S2 (24:49):
That, you.
S1 (24:50):
Know. Yeah, I love that because I think that so
often we're dealing with symptoms instead of dealing with the
source root of the problem. So it's a great question
to start with saying what is at the root of this.
What is causing this person to either be a workaholic?
I know for me, um, you know, and I'm like
many men of my generation, growing up feeling like love
(25:13):
was based off of performance. And so a lot of
the workaholism is a product of feeling like I have
to prove my worth. But a lot of times it's
just being told, I love you in spite of your performance.
I mean, that may be the first time any man
hears that. I mean, there's a lot of men who
I know. Doctor Chapman didn't get that from dad didn't
(25:36):
get that from mom, didn't get that from grandparents. And
maybe a spouse might be the first person to say
to them, I love you in spite of or regardless
of your performance. Listen, we're going to come back. Uh,
that music means we have to take a short break.
I promise you, we're going to come back with more, uh,
wisdom from Doctor Chapman. Not only about the, uh, subjects
(25:59):
we talk about now, but we're going to try to
fill some of your questions as well. Go to social media,
equip radio, Facebook, and Twitter for some new folks. We're
going to give away free copies of Doctor Chapman's book.
Don't change that dial. The best is yet to come.
Next up on equip. As a dad, a friend, and
a neighbor, I share your concerns over the growing problems
(26:20):
in our culture. That's why on equip we tackle the
tough issues learning how to respond with grace and truth.
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Would you be willing to become an Equipper today? In
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(26:40):
prepared just for you. Become an equipper today by calling
888644 4144 or go to equip radio.org. Chris Brooks here
reminding you that today's program is pre-recorded. While we won't
be taking calls, we do want to connect with you
on social media. Welcome back folks. I'm so grateful for
each and every one of you who listen to equip
(27:02):
each and every day. Want to say thank you to
our generous donors? Our partners make this show possible day
by day, equipping you to more effectively live, share, and
defend your faith. Today's guest is Doctor Gary Chapman. We're
talking about loving your spouse when you feel like walking away.
Isn't that a reality for so many? And Doctor Chapman,
(27:22):
you begin to lay out, I think, just a good
framework for how we can address all of these categories
of difficult marriages and difficult spouses. First, you talked about
recognizing and rejecting the myths that often hold us captive,
but then you begin to talk about taking Responsibility for
our own behavior and better understanding our spouse's behavior. That's
(27:45):
so critical, isn't it?
S2 (27:46):
Well, it is. Our attitude, first of all, needs to
focus on what can I do that will be positive,
that has a potential for doing something good and then
learning our spouse. You know, we talked before the break
about the workaholic. Uh, and you're exactly right that many
times men are workaholics because their whole idea is that
(28:08):
their worth is based on their performance. But here's another
aspect of that. Maybe his love language is words of affirmation,
and at work he gets words of affirmation, but he
comes home. And because he comes home at 8:00 or
830 at night and the wife is on his case
because you should have been home earlier, you don't have
(28:28):
to work these long hours. Da da da da da.
She's giving him negative words. Well, why would he want
to come home? Yeah, he gets positive words at work.
He comes home and the wife gives him negative words,
you know. So I think understanding the person's love language
will help you know how to be a more positive influence,
(28:49):
rather than a part of the problem. You know, when
she criticizes him, she's just exasperating the problem and driving
him further away. So understanding why the person does what
they do and understand their love language can help you
be a more positive influence.
S1 (29:05):
And you're talking about influence and you keep coming back
to this. We cannot control or change our spouse's behavior
by force, but we can influence them. And we do
as you say we do each and every day. But
I want to just kind of turn the page, if
I could, to Doctor Chapman something that is real and
relevant in the moment that we live in. What we're
finding in this hour of church history is that many
(29:28):
women have gained a voice and taken an opportunity to
share about the abuses that they've experienced, the mistreatment they've experienced,
oftentimes at the hands of those who should have loved
them and honored them more. So what do you say
to the spouse who is in an abusive relationship? And
I guess out of fairness, I should expand this because
(29:50):
nowadays we're seeing women abuse men as well as men
abusing women. So I don't want to I want to
make sure I'm not being insensitive. But how do you
advise or what what wisdom and counsel do you give
to those in that type of relationship?
S2 (30:06):
Well, let me say first of all, Chris, that I
don't think that physical abuse or sexual abuse should ever
be accepted behavior in a marriage relationship or out of
a marriage relationship for that matter. And the earlier you
deal with this in a marriage relationship, the better. See,
what happens is many times a couple gets married and
(30:28):
after the in-love experience wears off, the husband goes back
to being normal. Okay. And if his behavior has been
to be physically abusive to people in his life. When
he gets angry, then he will. He will do that
to his wife and the first time he has an
action of physical abuse or sexual abuse, that's the time
(30:52):
for her to say, you know, honey, I don't know
what's going on here, but I didn't sign up for this.
And this is not acceptable behavior. You know, tough love
needs to come early in which she's saying, no, no, no, no, no,
I will not experience this again. If you're not willing
to get help with this, then I'm going to. And
I would say, first of all, you go to a counselor,
(31:14):
talk to a counselor. Don't try to make these decisions
just on your own. Um, but we should never accept
that kind of behavior. And oftentimes, of course, it's later
in the marriage when you find out that a husband,
for example, has sexually abused one of your children. I mean,
this is terrible and should never, ever be acceptable behavior.
(31:35):
You don't just sit there. He has to deal with this.
You cannot go on. Yes. So I think, you know.
S1 (31:43):
And, Doctor Chapman, if I could just for a moment,
I hate to interrupt, because I want you to come
back to exactly where you left off, but I think
it's appropriate for us to also start with those who
are pre-married, those who are engaged, those who are single
and considering marrying someone. If you see these signs that
Doctor Chapman is talking about someone who has explosive anger,
(32:06):
someone who is physically abusive of the people in their lives,
someone who has a sexual addiction, all of these things.
I would say that so often what blows my mind
are singles who live as if they're under the same
obligation as marrieds. You have the freedom as a single
to run. You have the freedom as a single to
(32:28):
call it off. And I think that for more often
than not, Doctor Chapman, what I've seen is that very
rarely do these type of behaviors come out of the
blue in a marriage. They're sometimes if that does happen,
but a lot of times there are signs that are
there pre marriage. And so I just wanted to just
(32:48):
insert that if you are not married and you're seeing
these signs then you push the pause button or you
totally walk away but don't ignore them.
S2 (32:57):
That's a good word Chris. And not only that kind
of behavior toward you when you're dating, but that kind
of behavior toward their parents or toward their siblings or
toward people with whom they work. Because if they're explosive
in those other situations, they will eventually be explosive toward you.
So when you see that in a dating relationship, that
(33:18):
is a red flag waving that says, don't move into
marriage with this person. Now, if you can, if they
will go for help, I mean, there's always help. Okay.
If they're willing to go for counseling and really dig
into this issue, find out where that anger is coming
from and how the behavior they're having. And let them
discover this is this is not good. They're not going
(33:40):
to make it in life with this kind of behavior. Uh,
but if you if they if they don't make any
efforts to deal with that, then it's a deal breaker
for me as a single. It's a deal breaker as
a married who faces that sort of thing. It's not
that we're going to abandon them. Okay. We made a
commitment to them. We're not going to abandon them, but
we're not going to sit there and let that behavior
(34:01):
continue and be a part of it. We're going to
step out of that situation and say to them, I
am not abandoning you, but I love you too much
to do nothing. And unless you're willing to deal with this,
then I'm not going to live with you right now.
You know, divorce separation can be a positive thing if
it's done in that manner. But most of the time
(34:24):
we just put up with it for again and again
and again and again. And finally we get so burned
out with all of it that we think will divorce
is the only way. And so we move out, not
as a redemptive matter. We we move out as just
abandoning them. So, uh, the Christian perspective is whatever action
we take should be loving action. That is, it should
(34:45):
be action designed to influence them in a positive way.
S1 (34:49):
You know, if there is an unrepentant heart, I would
even say to that these things can get legal as well.
We have to recognize that if your life is in danger,
if the if the lives of your children are in
harm's way, then you have to get law enforcement involved
at times to be able to protect you and to
(35:09):
keep you safe. But again, all with the hopes of repentance. See,
this is, I think, what makes the gospel so unique
is there is both accountability and a hope for restoration
and repentance. And so what Doctor Chapman and I are
communicating is this high level of accountability while still loving
and hoping for restoration. If somehow those two things can
(35:33):
come together. I believe that God honors that. You know,
I want to speak for just a moment, Doctor Chapman,
to fellow pastors that are out there as well. For
the past 8 or 9 years, our church has dedicated
October to domestic violence awareness, and we have talked about
it openly, recognizing that if the statistics are true for
our congregation, we have a relatively large congregation you're talking
(35:56):
about 1 in 3 women in our church have experienced
or are currently experiencing abuse. Oftentimes, they're doing it in silence.
Pastors to overlook that is nothing short of negligence. So
I would say maybe you want to task if you're
a pastor, someone within your ministry, a woman that is
trusted and respected to be a resource as well. A
(36:18):
group of women can form a team to just have
materials that are available that say, what do you do
if domestic violence is a part of your reality. Where's
a safe place to call? What are the domestic Christian
domestic violence ministries that are out there to be able
to just have a safe place to reach out and
(36:42):
to call is so critical, so important. I just feel,
Doctor Chapman, our churches need to make sure we're mobilized
for this reality and not just living in denial.
S2 (36:52):
Well, I think that's true, Chris. And I think so
many churches really do not address this issue. And so
the church is silent, just as sometimes just as sometimes
the wives are silent and it doesn't go away. It
always gets worse. It doesn't just get better with the
passing of time. It only gets better if there's some
influence on that person that moves them in a different direction.
S1 (37:16):
Yes, and Doctor Chapman does a great job in his
book of giving resources. You have, uh, in, uh, in
chapter nine, you have a list of resources, a help
line that if folks can call. And I would just
advise pastors and leaders who say, you know what, we
have not made this an issue. Let me just say,
Doctor Chapman, it's not only going to get worse in
(37:37):
individual relationships. I just think this is something that the
culture is not going to let go of. No, I
think we, as we as pastors, have to make sure
that we don't sit back and just hope that somehow
our church is unscathed by this. We need to make
sure we're addressing it head on. And this resource, loving
your spouse when you feel like walking away, has an
(37:58):
entire section that's dedicated to what do I do if
I'm if I'm living with an abusive spouse or if
I have an abusive spouse? Pastors get this for you,
your elders, your leadership team, your staff. Read through it
together as a group. Read and come up with a
game plan proactively.
S2 (38:19):
Good word Chris. I hope pastors who are listening will
take that seriously.
S1 (38:23):
And let me just say too, if we could before
we go on to the next group. Doctor Chapman, just
speak to men for just a moment, because there's a
lot of men and we know the statistics that typically
what we find with abusive men is that they themselves
were abused, or they come from families where abuse was
a pattern. And so if you're a man and you say,
I don't want to be this guy, and I've said
(38:44):
across from many guys who have said to me, Pastor Chris,
I don't want to be this guy. I don't want
to be. I hate when my anger is explosive. I
hate when I abuse. I want to be different, man.
Be proactive and get help. And this is where men's
ministry Doctor Chapman comes in big time. And and I
(39:05):
think this is where repentance and acknowledging the own issues
in your own life to sin patterns in your own
life is very huge for men.
S2 (39:13):
I think that's the first step, Chris, is to acknowledge
that I have a problem, that this is not acceptable behaviour,
that I really don't like this about myself. I'm willing
to I apologize, but it's not just apologizing. I'm willing
to get help because over and over, a person who
has been abusive will apologize. But then two months later,
(39:34):
they do the same thing again. Two months later, they
do the same thing, and after every one, they apologize.
The difficulty is they don't follow through and get help
to change that behavior. So certainly apologizing is the first
step in acknowledging to yourself that you don't like this
about yourself and then take steps to deal with it.
And yes, that can be reading books. But I think
(39:56):
for most guys, it's going to take sitting down with
a counselor or a trusted, mature person sharing that problem
and let them help you and let God help you
break the chains of that behavior.
S1 (40:08):
That's good stuff. Hopefully it's helping couples that are listening.
And if you're a men's ministry director, get the book
as well. Read through it with your many, your men's ministry.
And why don't you be brave enough as a men's
ministry director to maybe ask men Man who's struggling with this.
And if you're struggling with this, we want to create
a safe place for you as well, to come to
(40:29):
one of our men's ministry leaders so you can get help.
We have to be proactive, and we got to love
people enough not to be silent. When we come back,
we're going to ask Doctor Chapman about the disconnected spouse.
It's going to help you tremendously. Don't forget social media.
Facebook and Twitter are available for you. We'll be right
back with more after this. The enemy loves to take
(40:50):
our sexual struggles and build strongholds that separate us from God.
We start believing lies like we can't go to church
anymore or that God couldn't possibly love us. Surrender Sexuality
by Julie Slattery breaks down those barriers and shows you
the path to freedom without shame and into the welcoming
(41:10):
arms of Jesus. We'll send you a copy with our
thanks when you support equip this month. Simply call 888644
4144 or visit equip Radio. Today's program has been pre-recorded
so our phone lines are not open. Welcome back to
(41:32):
equipped with Chris Brooks. It's never enough time when you
have Doctor Gary Chapman on the hot seat. He does
so well with sharing why we should celebrate marriage. And
what do we do when we face a difficult seasons
or the difficult realities and tough marriages? We want folks
out there to know that we love you. We're praying
for you. And as a matter of fact, we want
(41:53):
to be a blessing to you. So here's what we're
going to do. We're always looking to add new friends
to our social media community. Uh, we love that community
because it allows us to keep the conversation going even
after the broadcast is off the air. So if you
would join that community, we're going to pick five new
names on Facebook or Twitter. New friends that say, I
(42:14):
need this resource. If you can like our page for
the first time, Facebook or Twitter, go there now. We'll
pick five new names. We'll let you know who you are,
and we'll send you a copy of this wonderful resource.
Loving your spouse when you feel like walking away. Real
help for desperate hearts in difficult marriages. Doctor Chapman, what
(42:35):
do you do when you have a spouse that just
lacks communication skills or just the ability to communicate effectively,
and you feel like your emotional tank is on empty?
S2 (42:48):
You know, Chris, I think again, one of the first
things is to ask yourself why? Why is my spouse
reticent to talk and share and discuss things? It can
be traced to the home in which they grew up,
where they were told, you know, children don't talk. And
maybe that was true throughout the teenage years, and the
parents never listened to them, so they just learned not
(43:10):
to talk. It could also be your own response to
them that when they do talk, you correct them and say, well, no,
that's not right. No no no no no no I
don't no I don't agree with that. Well particularly if
they don't have a good self-image anyway. And then you disagree.
When they do talk they learn from you that it's
(43:32):
best not to talk. So trying to get at what's
behind their behavior is always an important step. Now, you
can't always determine that I understand, but it's worth an effort.
And even to ask them, why do you think it
is that when I ask you a question many times,
you don't ever answer me. Sometimes you just walk out
(43:53):
of the room. Why do you think you respond that way?
And if you'll just sit there and listen, not preach
them a sermon, but listen, they may well answer that question,
and you may well discover something about your spouse you
never knew. You can't make someone talk, but you can
(44:13):
try to discover what's behind their lack of communication.
S1 (44:17):
Yes. You know, one of the things I love that
you do at the end of each chapter that I
should have mentioned earlier, Doctor Chapman, is that there is
a small section at the end of each chapter that says,
for further help, for further help. And you have resources
in each chapter for folks to turn to to get
the help that they need. And and like you said,
(44:39):
sometimes when you look into the history or when you
begin to ask the question, why is the person that way?
What you find is that there's brokenness, there's abuse. They
they need help. And I like to say this to
couples and Doctor Chapman, I love to hear you just
speak about this. Not every issue in a marriage is
the issue of the marriage. Sometimes it's issues related to
(45:01):
the individual, isn't it?
S2 (45:03):
Absolutely. And because all of us grew up in a
culture and we were influenced by our parents or someone
who served as our parents, we were influenced by all
the things that happened in our past, and we bring
all of that into marriage. And most of the time
we've never processed our history. It's just our history. And
(45:24):
we've been influenced by it. And we respond in certain
ways because of it. And we don't even understand it
ourselves as an individual. It's good for all of us
to ask, you know, how did I get to be
the way I am? What happened in my life that
caused me to be this way or that way? Self
understanding can be a good step in the process of
(45:47):
changing things because yes, we are influenced by our our history,
but we're not controlled by our history. We're humans and
we can make changes. We don't have to always be angry, hateful,
mean people. And we don't ever, always have to be noncommunicating.
You know, we can learn how to grow more in
(46:08):
the skills that make a healthy marriage relationship.
S1 (46:12):
Doctor Chapman, you've given us quite a book to read.
I think it's obvious at this point that this is
not one of those casual reads. You take on some
pretty heavy issues. These are issues with enormous consequences for
the marriage, but you do so with hope. Now, this
is a book that requires folks to take action. It's
not a book that minimizes your pain, but it is
(46:34):
a book that empowers you to know that you can
take control of your attitude. And if you can just
overcome the myths, step into the realities. You can see
powerful change and influence not only of your spouse, but
in your marriage as well. Get a copy of Loving
Your Spouse When You Feel Like Walking Away. We'll give
away five free copies to new friends that like us
(46:57):
on Facebook and Twitter. Doctor Chapman, thank you for joining
me today.
S2 (47:01):
Thanks, Chris. Always enjoy being with you folks.
S1 (47:04):
I can't wait until we're together again next time. Remember,
equipped with Chris Brooks is a production of Moody Radio,
a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
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