July 23, 2025 • 47 mins
When life feels dark and painful, even faithful believers can find themselves asking—how can God still be good? On the next edition Equipped, Chris Brooks sits down with author and professor Collin Hansen to explore God’s goodness and justice. No easy answers—just real, compassionate truth to settle your questions and encourage your heart!
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Where Is God in a World With So Much Evil? by Collin Hansen
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:20):
Well. Hey there friends, welcome to another exciting edition of
equip with Chris Brooks! I am so thrilled that you've
joined us today. Can you do me a favor? Strap
on your seatbelt. We're going to navigate through the contours
of culture, as always, with the lens of the biblical
worldview on. But before we do that, let me remind you,
this is the day that the Lord has made. He
(00:40):
has given it as a gift so that you and
I can rejoice and be glad in it. So let's
do just that. Let's follow the word to the Apostle Paul.
Let's rejoice in the Lord always. And again I say, rejoice. Well,
have you ever found yourself asking the question, God, how
could you allow this to happen? Why is there so
(01:01):
much evil in the world? And Lord, where were you
when pain and trouble rushed into my life? If you've
ever asked yourself any of those questions, today is your
program today, we're going to have a conversation that simply
takes up the question, Where is God in a world
(01:22):
with so much evil? It's a big question. It's a
question that spans the ages that maybe is as old
as humanity is, if not just a little bit younger
than humanity itself. It's a question of the Bible gratefully
does not shy away from. It's also the title of
(01:42):
the newest book resource from my guest today, Colin Hansen.
Many of you know Colin is the vice president of
content and editor in chief for the Gospel Coalition. He's
also the executive director of the Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics.
He hosts one of my favorite podcasts, Gospel Bound. If
you don't listen to that, you should on a regular basis.
(02:05):
And in his spare time, he has time to be
a professor and co-chair of the advisory board at Beeson
Divinity School in Birmingham, Alabama. Colin, welcome to equip.
S2 (02:18):
I'm really glad to be here, Chris. Thanks for having
me back.
S1 (02:20):
You know, I think after reading your bio, maybe, uh,
a great place to start would be your work at Beason,
because in many ways, your work at Beason influenced this
newest resource. Talk about how your class there, um, helps
to shape this current project on where God is in
the world. So with so much evil.
S2 (02:44):
That's a great place to start, Chris. So I have
the great privilege of teaching a course in cultural apologetics
every year to people who are training for ministry. And
this is a class that bridges between a lot of
the work that we do on history and doctrine and
biblical exegesis into the contemporary period. We focus on a
lot of difficult questions sexuality and racism and justice and
(03:09):
on and on and on, things like that. And at
the end of just this two week period, we have
a final assignment. It's a sermon that needs to be
written by each member of the class, and they have
to incorporate, um, an answer to this simple question. What
do you think is the greatest objection to Christianity? Now,
(03:30):
this could be a personal one, something that you say,
I really struggle with this, or it could be something
that you just hear about a whole lot. And I
get a pretty wide range of answers. But as I
started teaching this class, I thought, well, I should give
these students an example of of what that looks like
in my own life. And one thing I found, Chris,
(03:51):
is that when I'm engaged in an apologetic conversation with someone,
usually I try to steer that conversation. I mean, it
often just goes there naturally, but I try to steer
that question or that conversation toward the question of the
problem of evil. And I find various ways to to
really heighten some of the, dramatic difficulties and tensions involved
(04:14):
in that question, but it's one of the more consistent
issues that comes up in those sermons. But that's what
led me to ultimately to write this book. And this
is an expansion on that sermon that I, that I
deliver in the class where I'm trying to ask my,
you know, the professor is trying to to fulfill his
own assignment in there before the students have to do
(04:35):
it themselves.
S1 (04:35):
Now, that takes a lot of bravery and courage. As
I said in my opening introduction, this question is probably
is as old as humanity in some form or fashion.
And it certainly has been the great challenge. You took
a trip to Yad Vashem, um, and uh, and really
you share about it in the book and the pages
(04:58):
of the book that talk about this really are palpable
with emotion. For those who don't know, what is Yad
Vashem and how did it impact you?
S2 (05:07):
Yad Vashem is the world's Holocaust remembrance center. That's in Jerusalem.
I was there with a tour group, and this was
not a place that I knew much about before I
was visiting. I'd been as a as a young adult
or actually as a teenager, I think, to Washington, D.C.
and the Holocaust Museum there. So I had a little
(05:28):
bit of that context and had studied some of this
back in, in college, had been a European history major.
But when you're in Jerusalem and you see you walk
through this whole journey to see what Jewish life was
like around Europe, uh, before the before the Second World War,
you see all these names, you see all these faces,
you learn about all of these different stories, you see
(05:51):
their life together. You're seeing so many of these children, um,
it just it just hits you. And it truly is
an overwhelming experience. And it's designed to be an overwhelming experience.
And then you come to the end. You've been through
this whole thing. You've seen the whole journey. You're emotionally very,
(06:13):
very overwrought at that point. And then they bring you
to this, this big picture. And it's what a lot
of us have expected if we know something about the Holocaust. Uh,
you see these these bunks, you know, bunk after bunk
after bunk after bunk. And there are these skeletal figures
who are staring into that camera. And you learn a
(06:34):
little bit more of the details. You learn this is
the Buchenwald concentration camp. You learn that it's, uh, George
Patton's Third Army, the United States, that liberates this camp
in 1945. And then you focus in a little bit more,
and you, you recognize, with the help of the guide
that you actually know one of the figures who is
in that picture. And that is a teenaged Elie Wiesel,
(06:58):
Nobel Prize winner, who would go on to be one
of the most profound advocates of remembrance of the Holocaust
so that we would not repeat it again or allow
it to be repeated again. And he wrote a book
that many people have read. It's one of the best
selling books, really, of the 20th century called night. And
(07:19):
as I read that book, coming back, I thought, that
is a book that deserves engagement and response. So that's
my experience with Yad Vashem.
S1 (07:27):
Well, you know, I went to a similar I didn't
get a chance to visit the Holocaust Museum that you
just described, but I did get a chance to visit
back in 2008, in Kigali, Rwanda, the Genocide Museum that
chronicles not only their national genocide, um, and the pain
(07:49):
of their story. Many may remember the movie Hotel Rwanda
that captures that story, but also it chronicles genocide throughout
the world, uh, and global history. And you find yourself
at the end of that. Totally broken. I remember sitting
outside after taking that tour and weeping Colin for 30 minutes,
(08:15):
and I remember thinking about God, why didn't you not
stop this? And coming ultimately to the conclusion that where
would he begin if he was to eradicate evil fully
from the human experience, who would be left? And I
remember thinking, like you, you walk out of that moment
(08:39):
wanting to not only see evil eradicated, but wanting someone
to blame and ultimately coming to the conclusion it's all
of us, Colin. It's not that there is some singular
evil group of people that you can pin all of
this on, or some clean solution to this. Either there
(09:00):
is no one left in humanity because we're all broken
and sinful and contributing to the evil in the world
or as the Bible gives us. God works his plan
of redemption, uh, in the world. And I'm glad that
he did talk about the way that you framed the question,
(09:20):
because I don't think the way you framed the question
is coincidental. You didn't ask the question why you asked where.
S2 (09:27):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that question really comes from Elie Wiesel. Uh,
so in in that book night, there's a really difficult,
difficult moment in there. And a rabbi, through this difficult
moment in the concentration camp is screaming, Where is God?
(09:49):
Where is he? And and Elie, just a child is
thinking about this, and he's thinking, we've killed him. I mean,
he can't possibly be alive. There cannot possibly be a God.
He cannot be found. If he would allow this thing
to happen. And of course, what makes this so profound
(10:11):
and so heartbreaking in so many different ways is that
this is the Jewish people. Yeah. And so these cries
of Where is God? Well, this is part of what
my book is, is all about. Yeah. They're throughout the
scriptures themselves from his people. Yes. Jewish and all the
way through to us today.
S1 (10:30):
Well, this is a profound book, and I am grateful
for your courage in many ways to follow the truth
where it leads, to follow God to the answer. Friends,
we're going to take up this question on the other
side of this break. Where is God in the world
with so much evil? If you're going through pain and suffering,
(10:52):
and this is an acute question to you right now.
Don't turn that down. Sean McDowell, in his endorsement of
the book, says the problem of evil and in particular
the Holocaust is the greatest challenge to the faith from
a biblical and pastoral perspective. Hansen tackles this challenge with
boldness and compassion. I couldn't agree more. We want to
(11:14):
take your questions as well. That's why social media is
available to you 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
Find us on Facebook or Twitter or X as well
there at Equipped Radio. Leave your questions. I promise you,
we'll read. We'll respond. Don't go anywhere. Much more to come.
Next up on equip. Do you have questions about your
(11:37):
sexuality that no one seems to address? Whether it's sexual sin,
gender confusion, or issues in your marriage, surrender Sexuality by
Doctor Julie Slattery has insights you need. She'll help you
to see that God wants to be invited into your
questions and struggles. And when you do, everything changes. Request
(11:59):
your copy with your gift of any amount. To equip,
simply call 888644 4144 or visit Radio.com. Welcome back to
my guest today, Colin Hansen. His book, Where Is God
(12:22):
in a World with So Much Evil tries to answer
this question with boldness, biblical accuracy, and compassion. That's why
I encourage you to find out more about Colin and
about the resource at our website. Equip radio.org. That's equip
radio dot. Colin, um, I want to talk to you
on a personal level about being a husband and a father.
(12:45):
How much did you think about your children as you
worked on this project?
S2 (12:51):
That's such a perceptive question, Chris. Um, there's a book
called The Road by Cormac McCarthy. Uh, McCarthy's is considered
a pretty classic contemporary fiction writer, and it's about a
father and it's about a son. It's a very harrowing account.
I gotta say, I wish I read that book before
I became a dad. Especially to sons. Yeah. Um, it's
(13:15):
it's cliché because it's true. Um, so many of us, we.
Our greatest nightmare is losing our kids. And the greatest
disaster that we can imagine is, is us outliving those children.
And so I've heard many people describe it this way,
but your your children are like your, your heart, you know,
(13:37):
they're they're your heart, but they're on the outside and
you can't you can't always protect them. And I think
one thing, just to kind of summarize that, that overall feeling,
and I know so many people listening now can relate
to this. But, um, you become quickly overwhelmed in life
when you imagine all the things that you cannot protect,
the ones that you love Of from. And so at
(13:59):
that point you can either break down or you can
try to manage and control everything, which of course will
lead to that breakdown. The only other option beyond despair
is to trust. And who do you trust ultimately in
God there? Who is a good and perfect father? Again,
(14:20):
we could talk about this part a long time, Chris,
because of course, so much of of of what is
most poignant here is the loss of the Son of God. Um,
on the cross. Uh, by his by his father. So, yeah,
the Bible gives us a lot of evocative theological language
to understand this reality that we experience as as earthly
(14:43):
parents so acutely.
S1 (14:45):
Yeah. It's amazing how this does bring us not only
together universally, all of us experiencing suffering, but it does
cause us to think about our children. The The vulnerability
of it and it thrust this question upon us. I
will just say, as somebody who, uh, is an apologist
and passionate about engaging this question, one of the things
(15:08):
that I appreciate about the Christian faith is that this
is not a question that's exclusive to us. Like, every
worldview has to wrestle with this question. I just love
the fact that the Christian faith does not avoid it.
And it gives questions that, to me have been the
most tenable, most comprehensive, and most compassionate. So let's just
(15:34):
dive into it, because one of the, uh, the sections
of your book is a world where God is isn't silent.
And it makes me think of Francis Schaeffer, who famously said,
he is there and he is not silent. Um, let's
just talk about that. That God is not silent.
S2 (15:56):
Well again, going back to Vsel and writing his book night,
this question of where is God? And I thought about this,
reflected on it, and I stopped and realised apart from
God there is no such thing as justice. You're simply
crying out into the wilderness. You're crying out into the emptiness.
(16:16):
It's precisely the sense, the acute sense of justice that
we all feel. Looking back on the Holocaust that Elie
Wiesel feels when he's looking on this evil. That itself
is a testimony that we are made in the image
of God. As the book of Romans talks about Romans
chapter one. We have this sense of the divine. We
(16:40):
have a sense of, of, of right and wrong. Even
if you're not a Christian, this is all of humanity.
If you think about it a little bit more, Chris,
you start to realize, just in a very concrete ways,
how different we are from any other creature, from any
other animal. You don't see this kind of reflection. You
know that the eagles don't soar over the mountains wondering why.
(17:05):
Why am I here? You don't see the the giraffes.
They don't. They don't see them talking with one another,
pondering the. You know, what is my purpose here in life?
Or what is right and wrong in the, you know,
in the animal kingdom, you just don't see those dynamics
of good and evil coming up. And so you realize
there is something different about us. And it's not that
(17:27):
God is silent. As Christians, we know that he speaks
very clearly through His Word, but also we just know
he's not silent because people are crying out saying, this
is wrong. The only reason they're doing that is because
they've been made in the image of God, you.
S1 (17:42):
Know, and one of the most poignant sections of your book,
you say, but I think God is speaking loudly. He
is not silent at all. You go on to say,
We hear his voice in the anguish and and later on,
you challenge us to be his voice. So in many ways,
(18:03):
when we take up this question, um, far from being
detached from it and being able to lay it simply
in the lap of God, we, his people have to
be confronted with, have we been his voice? In a
world where there is Holocaust, there is brokenness, there is
(18:24):
evil and injustice. From Russia and Ukraine to the Middle
East to our own streets in our lives. Personally, how
much of this book is meant to challenge the believer
to make sure that we are not silent?
S2 (18:43):
I love that point, Chris, and I think about it
in this historical context. We are living in very historical times. Um,
you don't always want to live in historical times because
it means there's a lot of violence, a lot of conflict.
And there's no doubt that this project has a new
kind of relevance. Because when you're dealing with issues of
(19:03):
the Second World War and you're dealing with the Holocaust,
we're looking at in Ukraine, the largest invasion in Europe,
the largest land battle in land war since the Second
World War in Europe. And then with the Hamas attacks, um,
out of Gaza on October 7th, 2023, you have the
largest murder of Jews since the Holocaust in there. So
(19:24):
at one level, these are these are unfortunately timely, even
as they're timely questions, even as they are timeless questions.
And one last point, Chris, I just want to bring
this back to you. You mentioned earlier the Rwanda situation,
and I could have easily opened the book talking about that.
One of the reasons I want to to focus on
this so much is because a lot of people are
(19:45):
confused when they think about these huge events, like Nazi
Germany or Rwanda. Wanda Germany was the most advanced Christian
civilization on Earth. Rwanda was one of the most heavily
Christianized countries in Africa. When these things happened. That's why
it's so important to go back to what you said earlier, Chris,
(20:05):
that this is a matter of each one of us
in our hearts and how capable humanity is of doing
horrible things to each other and how important it is
as Christians to resist that. Because we can't just blame
this on the people that we don't like. Unfortunately, a
lot of these things have happened even in places where
a lot of people, even the majority of people, profess
(20:28):
the name of Christ.
S1 (20:29):
You know, this generation has been affectionately called or referred
to as the justice generation, passionate about economic justice, human rights, uh,
other social justice issues. But I like to think of
it this way that if we want to reduce the
amount of evil in the world. We need to look
(20:50):
internally like the. The low hanging fruit in this conversation
is the evil in my heart. And what I've done
to confront that in my quest to call out the
bad actors of the world. If the Bible is right,
that quest to call out the bad actors in the
world will ultimately leave me looking in the mirror, because
(21:11):
all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
And it seems to me to be disingenuous for me
to try to search the world over, to try to
eradicate evil. If I haven't first found myself on my
knees before a merciful God, repenting of my contribution to
the evil and the brokenness of the world. So in
(21:33):
many ways, this book calls us to be reconciled to Christ,
to cry out to him, to redeem us not just
from an evil world, but from the evil that exists
within me. Let's talk about job. What did you learn
from job and why does the Bible even give us job?
S2 (21:55):
Oh, job is simply the most profound answer we've ever had.
Apart from the cross to this question of evil, it's
also a sign that God is not surprised by this question.
All of our anguish, all of our concerns, none of
this catches him by surprise. And he gives us a sure,
reliable guide in his word. I think, Chris, what stands
(22:15):
out to me most about job is actually thinking about
his friends. And I learned this from a couple of
my friends, um, who have written about the book of job,
was doing an interview with them, and they pointed out
something so significant they were looking at these friends. You know, Chris,
we make fun of these friends. These are bad friends.
But I don't think we I don't think we're quite
(22:36):
fair to the friends. First of all, in job's anguish,
they do the right thing. At first, they just spend
time with him. They're quiet. They're not trying to to
solve all the problems as if they could. They're not
trying to explain them away. But at some point, something
does begin to change with the friends and they start
to say things like, well, job, there must have been
(22:57):
something that you did wrong here. They're trying to investigate
this and I never thought about it this way, Chris,
but it's so it's so true of of of the
book of job, but also our experience, the reason they
want to find out what job did wrong is so
that they could protect themselves from what happened to job.
It's an illusion. Wow. And, Chris, we do this all
(23:20):
the time. When something horrible happens, we want to know
who did it, who's to blame, and what they did wrong.
We want to know that they deserved it. Because if
they don't deserve it. Chris, what does that say about us? Yeah.
That we can't protect ourselves. That we can't stop this
from happening. And we know that intellectually, but we don't
(23:41):
want to believe it experientially. We don't want to believe
that there is that little control over what happens in
our lives? And so we want to be able to
attribute it to I'm I'm doing the right thing. This
person who suffered did the wrong thing there. Chris, we
do this in a million different ways, from our health
choices to any number of things. But that's one of
(24:01):
the many lessons I think, that we can pull away
from job is to recognize, and that's how God talks
about it in the end as well. This is part
of what life is like in a fallen world, and
ultimately it's only the cross of Christ that makes sense
of it. And as you pointed out earlier, Chris, yes,
this is a problem that we face as Christians. In reality,
it's a problem of all humanity. Everybody has to encounter
(24:24):
the same basic issues.
S1 (24:26):
Yeah, and we also learn from job again to tread lightly.
And our accusations that we hurled towards towards God as
if he is unjust. It's interesting how we often like
to take the credit for the good stuff for ourselves,
and then to blame him for the bad stuff. And
yet in job 42 and four he says here and
(24:50):
I will speak. I will question you, and you make
it known to me. Man, you talk about cowering under
those words, how job wilted under those words of that torrent,
of being questioned by God as the Inquisition, uh, all
of us, all of us would do well to not
(25:11):
only give grace to others, but to say, God, I
know so little. I am so small. You are so big.
And when I can't understand your ways. When I can't
track your hand. Help me to trust your heart and
your character. Well, the Bible calls Jesus a suffering servant.
(25:32):
What does that mean? And how does that help us
to understand God's sympathy and commitment to us, even through
our suffering. We're going to take up that question on
the other side of this break. It's always a great day.
Whenever Colin Hansen stops by quip. I want to encourage
you find out more about him, his work at the
Gospel Coalition, as well as his newest resource, Where is
(25:56):
God in the world with so much Evil? Go to
our website. Equip Radio.com. We'll be right back right after this.
(26:19):
Well hey there friends, welcome back to equip with Chris Brooks.
Time flies when you're having a great conversation. Such is
the case today. So grateful to have Colin Hansen with
me to talk about his newest work. Where is God
in the world with so much evil? I also want
to encourage you to become a digital evangelist. What is
a digital evangelist? It's simply someone who's willing to share
(26:42):
the resources that have impacted your life deeply with someone else.
If you've come across a podcast, a book, a resource,
a conversation, a radio program just like this that is
spoken to your heart deeply. Why don't you just click
the share button on our social media pages and say,
(27:04):
with a simple post to all of your friends and
those who trust you deeply, hey, listen to this. It's
been a blessing to me. One of the ways you
could do that is, again, to find us on social media.
You can go to Twitter or you can go to Facebook.
You can find us on Instagram. Just look for Equip Radio.
(27:25):
And again when you get there, click the share button.
Just as this conversation has hopefully encouraged your heart, it
will encourage the hearts of others as well. Colin has
been brave enough bold enough to take up the question,
Where is God in a world with so much evil.
A question that every single one of us has asked
at some point, and he's done so with boldness and compassion.
(27:49):
I want to read from Isaiah 53. Isaiah 53 has
an interesting way of describing Jesus. Verse number three of
Isaiah 53 says that he was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief. You know,
I think when we think of our Savior Triumphant, we
(28:13):
often get a revelation, one view of the Savior. And
that's a great view, uh, of him being strong and
mighty and majestic, the conquering hero, if you will. Uh,
but when you listen to Isaiah describe Jesus this way. Despised, rejected.
(28:34):
A man of sorrows, acquainted with grief. Um, what does
that speak to you about who our Savior is and
how he relates to our suffering?
S2 (28:46):
There's another description there, Chris, that is especially poignant to me.
It says he opened, not his mouth. Mhm. Just imagine this, Chris.
The the savior of the world. The agent of creation,
the one who holds all things together by the word
of his power. Hanging on the cross after having faced
(29:07):
these these false accusations, accusations lobbied against him by the
very people he came to save, especially the Jewish, the
Jewish people, the Jewish leaders, at least in this case.
And imagine him not defending himself, not defending himself, in
part because he knew that this was the mission that
his father had sent him to do. And he'd agonized,
(29:30):
he'd agonized and Gethsemane over that mission coming up to
its culmination there on the cross. I just think, Chris,
of how just kind of two points here. One is
how uncommon this is when you look at the other
world religions, when you look at the alternatives to describe
God himself in this way, I find nothing that's even
(29:53):
close to this in terms of the identification of the
Son of God with suffering, which ultimately is the answer
that Christians have maybe not a perfect intellectual question answer
as if that one exists, but a deeply personal and
emotional and experiential answer. Um, yeah. I'm just I'm just
(30:15):
struck just struck thinking about that every time I think
about that and, and I, I just there's no situation, Chris.
Just I'm on my second point here. There's no situation.
We're told that Christ himself sympathizes with us in our weaknesses,
the weaknesses of what we. I mean, he was without
(30:36):
sin and yet was became sin, taking that to the
cross and and scorning that that shame so that we
could be saved. I just don't find anything remotely parallel
to this anywhere. And then you realize it's not that
Christianity so has a problem, is that Christianity has the
(30:59):
only solution that is both intellectually sensible but also emotionally
satisfying at the same time. There just isn't any alternative.
S1 (31:09):
Yeah, I love that you brought up the fact that, um,
Christianity is not just intellectually sensible. Uh, I love that
because there are other worldviews that are pretty deeply, profoundly
philosophical in how they answer this and some even, um, appealing,
(31:29):
if you will, to the intellect. But what I think, uh,
puts Christianity over the top, in my opinion, is the
fact that God has a son and that son suffered
and died, uh, the death of an innocent man who
did no wrong and took our sins and evils upon him.
(31:53):
You know, many of our listeners will know the pain
that our family experienced 2019 when, uh, our, our oldest son, Chris,
died unexpectedly, tragically. And, um, and I remember sitting with
that and in those moments and I think, you know, this, Colin,
and anybody who's ever been through deep, deep pain and
(32:16):
loss knows this. In those moments, you're not so much
looking to have some philosophical conversation, right? What I was
not trying to look for was, uh, some volume that
was written by a dead guy 200 years ago that, um,
you know, try to tackle this from just some philosophical perspective.
(32:37):
I'm looking for who can sympathize with the hurt that
I feel that can't even be expressed through words. And, uh,
I just remember and, uh, one morning, sitting in this
pain and realizing that the father understands what I'm experiencing
(33:02):
because he, too, uh, watched his son suffer and die. That,
to me, is profound. It takes it from just the
realm of intellectualism, and it puts it in such a
relational term that I'm able to trust him not just
with my thoughts, not just with my life, but Colin
(33:23):
with my heart.
S2 (33:26):
Yeah. And I think, Chris, that that trust is what
it's all about. It's all about developing those habits and
instincts of trust. And I go back to another biblical
example here, and I know that it's one that ministered
to you during that time and subsequently as well. So
I'm walking with a really close friend of mine here
(33:48):
in town who lost his son, uh, a number of
years ago, and his immediate instinct was to go back
to David in the Old Testament and the loss of
his son. Yeah. Uh, he will not come to me,
but I will go to him. Yeah. And, of course,
that's about the resurrection. Ultimately, the cross itself is meaningful.
(34:10):
But what's powerful and what changes everything is resurrection.
S1 (34:16):
That's right.
S2 (34:16):
And what's interesting in, in David's case, is that that
son was lost as a result of his sin. That
was a judgment. But that's not the case most of
the time that we're able to able to understand. Um,
and yet nevertheless, you can just see how the Lord
ministers to David his trust in that moment to understand
not only what we see in the cross, that his
(34:37):
sin has been covered, but also that there is a
hope of resurrection someday. And that really, Chris, as you know.
S1 (34:45):
So yeah, let me let me jump in.
S2 (34:47):
It changes everything.
S1 (34:49):
Let me jump in. If I could, because you're exactly
right that minister to me greatly. And one of the
things that's really profound about this story of David after
his son's death is that he gets up from the ground.
He dresses himself, he washes, he bathes, he dresses himself
almost as if he has an appointment. And his servants
are wondering, what is he going to do? You know,
(35:11):
and and he gets up and he goes to the
house of the Lord, and he worships. And one of
the things that I've often thought about is that man,
my son Chris, is experiencing the greatest worship service, the
most glorious worship service that I could ever imagine. And
every time I'm in worship. It is a taste of
(35:34):
what we will one day experience again together. And so
what a what a blessing to have the blessed hope
of the resurrection that is ours in Christ, that he
is the resurrection and the life. And I'm so grateful
that we don't have a God who is a distant, disconnected, uh, deity,
(36:00):
that we have a God who is well acquainted with
our sufferings and our sorrows, and who loves us and says,
come to me, all of you who are weary and
heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Uh, I
hope that this conversation is encouraging you if it is,
become a digital evangelist today. Share this conversation. Call a friend.
(36:23):
Go to your social media. Make sure somebody else is
blessed as well. Also, get your copy of this wonderful
resource by Colin Hanson by going to our website equip radio. Equip.
We confront the cultural challenges of our time, offering biblical
(36:44):
truth with discernment and confidence in God's plans and purposes.
Your support as an Equipper helps us reach more people
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and partner with us in this vital ministry. Call (888)Â 644-4144
(37:07):
or go online to equip Radio.com. Welcome back to equip
with Chris Brook. So grateful for these few moments that
we get a chance to, uh, Talk and and share
(37:28):
with Colin Hansen. And I appreciate, Colin, your thoughtfulness and
taking up the question, Where is God in the world
of so much evil and man? This just scratches the surface.
There are nuggets of truth and the resource that Colin
has produced, and I want to encourage you to go
to our website to find out more, to order your copy.
(37:49):
And maybe this becomes the gift, the olive branch, if
you will, the tool that God uses to help to
restore someone's relationship with the Lord. That has been a
strange because of their journey through suffering. And, uh, I
would encourage you to do so. And I'm grateful for
the people who were willing to point me in the
(38:10):
right direction and dark nights of the soul that I've experienced,
and all of us need to sojourners. And maybe you
could be that for someone else. So go to our website,
equip radio. All right, Colin, this is where I want
to land the plane. In a few moments, we have left. Um,
what advice do you want to give to others who
maybe are walking with someone who's going through suffering? How
(38:34):
can we help someone who has suffered?
S2 (38:39):
Well, I think there are two things that stand out.
And one of them goes back to what we discussed
earlier with the friends of of job. Um, the sitting,
the presence, um, the practical help. I think sometimes we
can be dismissive of that, but it's just the willingness
to show up and not necessarily to ask how to help,
(39:01):
but to just start helping. Um, I mean, it can
be difficult. Sometimes we feel like we're being intrusive in there,
but being intrusive in suffering is more like coming in
and trying to fix the problem, or trying to solve
the problem, or trying to explain it away, or to
encourage people to like, as if you can talk them
(39:22):
out of their grief. That's Intrusiveness when it comes to
suffering for most people, but not sort of being invasively
loving of jumping in and helping them with those, with those,
those different things. And I do think, Chris, there are
some people who would be helped by this book in
that moment. For some other people, it might be helpful
(39:42):
down the line. Um, I do think it's an instructive.
What I tried to do with this book is really
just to build off Scripture and to say, lean into
that instinct of trust, encourage others to lean into that
instinct as well, and recognize the Bible itself gives a
fulsome account of that language, that language of lament, that
(40:04):
language of God. How could you allow this to happen?
You know, we've talked about the cross. We've talked about
job in here. The book of Habakkuk is a really
good place to go as well. It's a it's it's
very much addressing the same problem really. The entire experience
of exile, um, is, is rich with this. But then
beyond that again when you're showing up and you want
(40:24):
to minister to somebody, you don't know what to say.
You can't go wrong with the Psalms. The Psalms are
just full, full of this. And it's just what you
said earlier. There's an intellectual component, of course, here because
we're learning about who God is. But the emotional component
of the Psalms just cannot be matched. So show up,
get involved. Invasively love by just helping people to, you know,
(40:48):
with with everyday tasks and things like that, but also
just sit with them and even sit with them in
Scripture and the Psalms in particular, uh, stand out for their, um,
just their beauty, their reminders of God, but also just
the way we can emotionally and spiritually connect to God
through them.
S1 (41:04):
Yeah. I'm so grateful for all that you just said,
because I do think that sometimes, uh, at least in
my life, when people have asked me, you know, how
can I help? How can I be a blessing to you?
How can I serve? And I love that question. It's
so sincere, and it's the right question for the body
of Christ to ask the brothers and sisters to ask.
But there are certain times when I haven't known the answer. Like,
(41:28):
I don't even know what my soul needs. And so
I'm grateful for your encouragement to not not be, you know,
controlling or heavy handed, but to look for just practical
ways to show the love of Christ. Because sometimes if
you're waiting for someone to say, oh, I know exactly
what I need, you might be waiting a very, very
(41:49):
long time. I also appreciate you mentioning presence ministry. Just
being there. You know, when I think back to some
of the valleys of my life, I can't tell you
exactly what someone said or did. But I do remember
who was there. I can tell you, the people who
(42:10):
were there and sometimes just being there, just being willing to.
And I know that it can feel scary to sit
with somebody and their suffering, but God gives grace for that,
just as God gives us grace for salvation. I'm convinced, Colin,
that God gives us grace for suffering as well. Let's
(42:30):
just talk to pastors for a moment. I'm a pastor.
I have a huge heart for pastors in the local church.
How would you encourage us to use this resource, Colin?
Because I know so much of this can easily be
seen just as a personal resource for a personal or
private journey. But I think there's some pastoral, uh, grace here.
(42:53):
What would you say if you had a room full
of pastors and you could place this in each one
of their hands, or maybe how to best use it?
S2 (43:02):
Well, I think the best time to be thinking about
these questions is before you head into that dark night.
It goes back to what I said earlier. How are
we discipling one another for that instinct of trust? How
do we how do we encourage one another so that
when the inevitable happens. We all know how life ends.
(43:23):
It's one way or another, but we all know that
it ends the same way. We all have to be
prepared for this. We're all in the same boat. You
mentioned that earlier. Our shared humanity here. So it's a
matter of discipleship to simply prepare people well for those instincts,
to help them know, okay, when this happens, what scriptures
will come to mind? Where do I turn in? Where
(43:46):
do I turn in Scripture? What songs would be helpful
for me to sing, to kind of cultivate those levels
of trust? Or just what disciplines or just experiences with God?
How do I connect with God in those moments? I mean,
I know that I have some of those some of
those hymns that I go back to things like be still,
my soul, abide with me. You know, I know that
(44:09):
if I walked through some of those same experiences that
that you have have had to walk through, kind of
know of trying to train my soul that those are
the ones that I would go to because those are
the ones that I have gone to. Yeah. In those moments.
So use this resource to help disciple prepare people ahead
of what is unfortunately inevitable for all of us.
S1 (44:30):
Yeah, it's been said that either you are in a storm,
you just came out of one, or you're headed into one.
And I think it's important for us as the church to, uh,
not pretend as if the world is not broken. As
a matter of fact, the fact that the fall did
happen only further validates the truthfulness of God's redemptive story
(44:53):
and mission and the scriptures. And so don't shy away
from that. And, uh, let's lean in. Just like our
good brother Colin has helped to encourage us through this resource.
Let's all be willing to lean in. And if you
feel like, man, I'm not as smart as Colin Hansen.
That's all right. You got a book, you got a resource.
You don't have to go it alone. That's the beauty
(45:15):
of the body of Christ. We have a Savior and
we have one another. Colin, you are a gift to
the body. We really do appreciate you, brother. Um, how
can we best pray for you? Maybe with 30s left.
S2 (45:32):
Well, I think, Chris, we all live what we preach.
We have unspoken things and spoken things that we are
going through. Um. And I just want to be found
faithful in those moments as they continue to come with
what I've shared here on this program, what I've written
in this book. I want to live out in my
life as well. If you could pray for that, I'd
really appreciate it.
S1 (45:52):
Father, thank you for calling. I pray that you would
bless him. Let your hand of mercy and grace be
upon his family as well. And, Lord, our hearts do yearn,
that those who have been deeply wounded by this world
would find that there is a balm in Gilead, that
they would find hope in you. So may many turn
(46:14):
from sin to Christ for salvation. As a result of
this resource and this conversation, thank you for Colin and
the gift of the years to the body in Jesus name.
Amen and amen. Amen. Colin Hanson, you are off to
hot seat, brother. We appreciate you. Uh, friends, I want
to encourage you. Please go to our website. Find out more.
(46:37):
Where is God in the world with so much evil? Well,
the answer is he's there and he is not silent.
I so appreciate you tuning in to today's edition of equipped. Again,
I want to encourage you find out more at our website.
Equip radio 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Remember,
(46:57):
equip with Chris Brooks is a production of Moody Radio,
a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
Well. Hey there friends, welcome to another exciting edition of
equip with Chris Brooks! I am so thrilled that you've
joined us today. Can you do me a favor? Strap
on your seatbelt. We're going to navigate through the contours
of culture, as always, with the lens of the biblical
worldview on. But before we do that, let me remind you,
this is the day that the Lord has made. He
(00:40):
has given it as a gift so that you and
I can rejoice and be glad in it. So let's
do just that. Let's follow the word to the Apostle Paul.
Let's rejoice in the Lord always. And again I say, rejoice. Well,
have you ever found yourself asking the question, God, how
could you allow this to happen? Why is there so
(01:01):
much evil in the world? And Lord, where were you
when pain and trouble rushed into my life? If you've
ever asked yourself any of those questions, today is your
program today, we're going to have a conversation that simply
takes up the question, Where is God in a world
(01:22):
with so much evil? It's a big question. It's a
question that spans the ages that maybe is as old
as humanity is, if not just a little bit younger
than humanity itself. It's a question of the Bible gratefully
does not shy away from. It's also the title of
(01:42):
the newest book resource from my guest today, Colin Hansen.
Many of you know Colin is the vice president of
content and editor in chief for the Gospel Coalition. He's
also the executive director of the Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics.
He hosts one of my favorite podcasts, Gospel Bound. If
you don't listen to that, you should on a regular basis.
(02:05):
And in his spare time, he has time to be
a professor and co-chair of the advisory board at Beeson
Divinity School in Birmingham, Alabama. Colin, welcome to equip.
S2 (02:18):
I'm really glad to be here, Chris. Thanks for having
me back.
S1 (02:20):
You know, I think after reading your bio, maybe, uh,
a great place to start would be your work at Beason,
because in many ways, your work at Beason influenced this
newest resource. Talk about how your class there, um, helps
to shape this current project on where God is in
the world. So with so much evil.
S2 (02:44):
That's a great place to start, Chris. So I have
the great privilege of teaching a course in cultural apologetics
every year to people who are training for ministry. And
this is a class that bridges between a lot of
the work that we do on history and doctrine and
biblical exegesis into the contemporary period. We focus on a
lot of difficult questions sexuality and racism and justice and
(03:09):
on and on and on, things like that. And at
the end of just this two week period, we have
a final assignment. It's a sermon that needs to be
written by each member of the class, and they have
to incorporate, um, an answer to this simple question. What
do you think is the greatest objection to Christianity? Now,
(03:30):
this could be a personal one, something that you say,
I really struggle with this, or it could be something
that you just hear about a whole lot. And I
get a pretty wide range of answers. But as I
started teaching this class, I thought, well, I should give
these students an example of of what that looks like
in my own life. And one thing I found, Chris,
(03:51):
is that when I'm engaged in an apologetic conversation with someone,
usually I try to steer that conversation. I mean, it
often just goes there naturally, but I try to steer
that question or that conversation toward the question of the
problem of evil. And I find various ways to to
really heighten some of the, dramatic difficulties and tensions involved
(04:14):
in that question, but it's one of the more consistent
issues that comes up in those sermons. But that's what
led me to ultimately to write this book. And this
is an expansion on that sermon that I, that I
deliver in the class where I'm trying to ask my,
you know, the professor is trying to to fulfill his
own assignment in there before the students have to do
(04:35):
it themselves.
S1 (04:35):
Now, that takes a lot of bravery and courage. As
I said in my opening introduction, this question is probably
is as old as humanity in some form or fashion.
And it certainly has been the great challenge. You took
a trip to Yad Vashem, um, and uh, and really
you share about it in the book and the pages
(04:58):
of the book that talk about this really are palpable
with emotion. For those who don't know, what is Yad
Vashem and how did it impact you?
S2 (05:07):
Yad Vashem is the world's Holocaust remembrance center. That's in Jerusalem.
I was there with a tour group, and this was
not a place that I knew much about before I
was visiting. I'd been as a as a young adult
or actually as a teenager, I think, to Washington, D.C.
and the Holocaust Museum there. So I had a little
(05:28):
bit of that context and had studied some of this
back in, in college, had been a European history major.
But when you're in Jerusalem and you see you walk
through this whole journey to see what Jewish life was
like around Europe, uh, before the before the Second World War,
you see all these names, you see all these faces,
you learn about all of these different stories, you see
(05:51):
their life together. You're seeing so many of these children, um,
it just it just hits you. And it truly is
an overwhelming experience. And it's designed to be an overwhelming experience.
And then you come to the end. You've been through
this whole thing. You've seen the whole journey. You're emotionally very,
(06:13):
very overwrought at that point. And then they bring you
to this, this big picture. And it's what a lot
of us have expected if we know something about the Holocaust. Uh,
you see these these bunks, you know, bunk after bunk
after bunk after bunk. And there are these skeletal figures
who are staring into that camera. And you learn a
(06:34):
little bit more of the details. You learn this is
the Buchenwald concentration camp. You learn that it's, uh, George
Patton's Third Army, the United States, that liberates this camp
in 1945. And then you focus in a little bit more,
and you, you recognize, with the help of the guide
that you actually know one of the figures who is
in that picture. And that is a teenaged Elie Wiesel,
(06:58):
Nobel Prize winner, who would go on to be one
of the most profound advocates of remembrance of the Holocaust
so that we would not repeat it again or allow
it to be repeated again. And he wrote a book
that many people have read. It's one of the best
selling books, really, of the 20th century called night. And
(07:19):
as I read that book, coming back, I thought, that
is a book that deserves engagement and response. So that's
my experience with Yad Vashem.
S1 (07:27):
Well, you know, I went to a similar I didn't
get a chance to visit the Holocaust Museum that you
just described, but I did get a chance to visit
back in 2008, in Kigali, Rwanda, the Genocide Museum that
chronicles not only their national genocide, um, and the pain
(07:49):
of their story. Many may remember the movie Hotel Rwanda
that captures that story, but also it chronicles genocide throughout
the world, uh, and global history. And you find yourself
at the end of that. Totally broken. I remember sitting
outside after taking that tour and weeping Colin for 30 minutes,
(08:15):
and I remember thinking about God, why didn't you not
stop this? And coming ultimately to the conclusion that where
would he begin if he was to eradicate evil fully
from the human experience, who would be left? And I
remember thinking, like you, you walk out of that moment
(08:39):
wanting to not only see evil eradicated, but wanting someone
to blame and ultimately coming to the conclusion it's all
of us, Colin. It's not that there is some singular
evil group of people that you can pin all of
this on, or some clean solution to this. Either there
(09:00):
is no one left in humanity because we're all broken
and sinful and contributing to the evil in the world
or as the Bible gives us. God works his plan
of redemption, uh, in the world. And I'm glad that
he did talk about the way that you framed the question,
(09:20):
because I don't think the way you framed the question
is coincidental. You didn't ask the question why you asked where.
S2 (09:27):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that question really comes from Elie Wiesel. Uh,
so in in that book night, there's a really difficult,
difficult moment in there. And a rabbi, through this difficult
moment in the concentration camp is screaming, Where is God?
(09:49):
Where is he? And and Elie, just a child is
thinking about this, and he's thinking, we've killed him. I mean,
he can't possibly be alive. There cannot possibly be a God.
He cannot be found. If he would allow this thing
to happen. And of course, what makes this so profound
(10:11):
and so heartbreaking in so many different ways is that
this is the Jewish people. Yeah. And so these cries
of Where is God? Well, this is part of what
my book is, is all about. Yeah. They're throughout the
scriptures themselves from his people. Yes. Jewish and all the
way through to us today.
S1 (10:30):
Well, this is a profound book, and I am grateful
for your courage in many ways to follow the truth
where it leads, to follow God to the answer. Friends,
we're going to take up this question on the other
side of this break. Where is God in the world
with so much evil? If you're going through pain and suffering,
(10:52):
and this is an acute question to you right now.
Don't turn that down. Sean McDowell, in his endorsement of
the book, says the problem of evil and in particular
the Holocaust is the greatest challenge to the faith from
a biblical and pastoral perspective. Hansen tackles this challenge with
boldness and compassion. I couldn't agree more. We want to
(11:14):
take your questions as well. That's why social media is
available to you 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
Find us on Facebook or Twitter or X as well
there at Equipped Radio. Leave your questions. I promise you,
we'll read. We'll respond. Don't go anywhere. Much more to come.
Next up on equip. Do you have questions about your
(11:37):
sexuality that no one seems to address? Whether it's sexual sin,
gender confusion, or issues in your marriage, surrender Sexuality by
Doctor Julie Slattery has insights you need. She'll help you
to see that God wants to be invited into your
questions and struggles. And when you do, everything changes. Request
(11:59):
your copy with your gift of any amount. To equip,
simply call 888644 4144 or visit Radio.com. Welcome back to
my guest today, Colin Hansen. His book, Where Is God
(12:22):
in a World with So Much Evil tries to answer
this question with boldness, biblical accuracy, and compassion. That's why
I encourage you to find out more about Colin and
about the resource at our website. Equip radio.org. That's equip
radio dot. Colin, um, I want to talk to you
on a personal level about being a husband and a father.
(12:45):
How much did you think about your children as you
worked on this project?
S2 (12:51):
That's such a perceptive question, Chris. Um, there's a book
called The Road by Cormac McCarthy. Uh, McCarthy's is considered
a pretty classic contemporary fiction writer, and it's about a
father and it's about a son. It's a very harrowing account.
I gotta say, I wish I read that book before
I became a dad. Especially to sons. Yeah. Um, it's
(13:15):
it's cliché because it's true. Um, so many of us, we.
Our greatest nightmare is losing our kids. And the greatest
disaster that we can imagine is, is us outliving those children.
And so I've heard many people describe it this way,
but your your children are like your, your heart, you know,
(13:37):
they're they're your heart, but they're on the outside and
you can't you can't always protect them. And I think
one thing, just to kind of summarize that, that overall feeling,
and I know so many people listening now can relate
to this. But, um, you become quickly overwhelmed in life
when you imagine all the things that you cannot protect,
the ones that you love Of from. And so at
(13:59):
that point you can either break down or you can
try to manage and control everything, which of course will
lead to that breakdown. The only other option beyond despair
is to trust. And who do you trust ultimately in
God there? Who is a good and perfect father? Again,
(14:20):
we could talk about this part a long time, Chris,
because of course, so much of of of what is
most poignant here is the loss of the Son of God. Um,
on the cross. Uh, by his by his father. So, yeah,
the Bible gives us a lot of evocative theological language
to understand this reality that we experience as as earthly
(14:43):
parents so acutely.
S1 (14:45):
Yeah. It's amazing how this does bring us not only
together universally, all of us experiencing suffering, but it does
cause us to think about our children. The The vulnerability
of it and it thrust this question upon us. I
will just say, as somebody who, uh, is an apologist
and passionate about engaging this question, one of the things
(15:08):
that I appreciate about the Christian faith is that this
is not a question that's exclusive to us. Like, every
worldview has to wrestle with this question. I just love
the fact that the Christian faith does not avoid it.
And it gives questions that, to me have been the
most tenable, most comprehensive, and most compassionate. So let's just
(15:34):
dive into it, because one of the, uh, the sections
of your book is a world where God is isn't silent.
And it makes me think of Francis Schaeffer, who famously said,
he is there and he is not silent. Um, let's
just talk about that. That God is not silent.
S2 (15:56):
Well again, going back to Vsel and writing his book night,
this question of where is God? And I thought about this,
reflected on it, and I stopped and realised apart from
God there is no such thing as justice. You're simply
crying out into the wilderness. You're crying out into the emptiness.
(16:16):
It's precisely the sense, the acute sense of justice that
we all feel. Looking back on the Holocaust that Elie
Wiesel feels when he's looking on this evil. That itself
is a testimony that we are made in the image
of God. As the book of Romans talks about Romans
chapter one. We have this sense of the divine. We
(16:40):
have a sense of, of, of right and wrong. Even
if you're not a Christian, this is all of humanity.
If you think about it a little bit more, Chris,
you start to realize, just in a very concrete ways,
how different we are from any other creature, from any
other animal. You don't see this kind of reflection. You
know that the eagles don't soar over the mountains wondering why.
(17:05):
Why am I here? You don't see the the giraffes.
They don't. They don't see them talking with one another,
pondering the. You know, what is my purpose here in life?
Or what is right and wrong in the, you know,
in the animal kingdom, you just don't see those dynamics
of good and evil coming up. And so you realize
there is something different about us. And it's not that
(17:27):
God is silent. As Christians, we know that he speaks
very clearly through His Word, but also we just know
he's not silent because people are crying out saying, this
is wrong. The only reason they're doing that is because
they've been made in the image of God, you.
S1 (17:42):
Know, and one of the most poignant sections of your book,
you say, but I think God is speaking loudly. He
is not silent at all. You go on to say,
We hear his voice in the anguish and and later on,
you challenge us to be his voice. So in many ways,
(18:03):
when we take up this question, um, far from being
detached from it and being able to lay it simply
in the lap of God, we, his people have to
be confronted with, have we been his voice? In a
world where there is Holocaust, there is brokenness, there is
(18:24):
evil and injustice. From Russia and Ukraine to the Middle
East to our own streets in our lives. Personally, how
much of this book is meant to challenge the believer
to make sure that we are not silent?
S2 (18:43):
I love that point, Chris, and I think about it
in this historical context. We are living in very historical times. Um,
you don't always want to live in historical times because
it means there's a lot of violence, a lot of conflict.
And there's no doubt that this project has a new
kind of relevance. Because when you're dealing with issues of
(19:03):
the Second World War and you're dealing with the Holocaust,
we're looking at in Ukraine, the largest invasion in Europe,
the largest land battle in land war since the Second
World War in Europe. And then with the Hamas attacks, um,
out of Gaza on October 7th, 2023, you have the
largest murder of Jews since the Holocaust in there. So
(19:24):
at one level, these are these are unfortunately timely, even
as they're timely questions, even as they are timeless questions.
And one last point, Chris, I just want to bring
this back to you. You mentioned earlier the Rwanda situation,
and I could have easily opened the book talking about that.
One of the reasons I want to to focus on
this so much is because a lot of people are
(19:45):
confused when they think about these huge events, like Nazi
Germany or Rwanda. Wanda Germany was the most advanced Christian
civilization on Earth. Rwanda was one of the most heavily
Christianized countries in Africa. When these things happened. That's why
it's so important to go back to what you said earlier, Chris,
(20:05):
that this is a matter of each one of us
in our hearts and how capable humanity is of doing
horrible things to each other and how important it is
as Christians to resist that. Because we can't just blame
this on the people that we don't like. Unfortunately, a
lot of these things have happened even in places where
a lot of people, even the majority of people, profess
(20:28):
the name of Christ.
S1 (20:29):
You know, this generation has been affectionately called or referred
to as the justice generation, passionate about economic justice, human rights, uh,
other social justice issues. But I like to think of
it this way that if we want to reduce the
amount of evil in the world. We need to look
(20:50):
internally like the. The low hanging fruit in this conversation
is the evil in my heart. And what I've done
to confront that in my quest to call out the
bad actors of the world. If the Bible is right,
that quest to call out the bad actors in the
world will ultimately leave me looking in the mirror, because
(21:11):
all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
And it seems to me to be disingenuous for me
to try to search the world over, to try to
eradicate evil. If I haven't first found myself on my
knees before a merciful God, repenting of my contribution to
the evil and the brokenness of the world. So in
(21:33):
many ways, this book calls us to be reconciled to Christ,
to cry out to him, to redeem us not just
from an evil world, but from the evil that exists
within me. Let's talk about job. What did you learn
from job and why does the Bible even give us job?
S2 (21:55):
Oh, job is simply the most profound answer we've ever had.
Apart from the cross to this question of evil, it's
also a sign that God is not surprised by this question.
All of our anguish, all of our concerns, none of
this catches him by surprise. And he gives us a sure,
reliable guide in his word. I think, Chris, what stands
(22:15):
out to me most about job is actually thinking about
his friends. And I learned this from a couple of
my friends, um, who have written about the book of job,
was doing an interview with them, and they pointed out
something so significant they were looking at these friends. You know, Chris,
we make fun of these friends. These are bad friends.
But I don't think we I don't think we're quite
(22:36):
fair to the friends. First of all, in job's anguish,
they do the right thing. At first, they just spend
time with him. They're quiet. They're not trying to to
solve all the problems as if they could. They're not
trying to explain them away. But at some point, something
does begin to change with the friends and they start
to say things like, well, job, there must have been
(22:57):
something that you did wrong here. They're trying to investigate
this and I never thought about it this way, Chris,
but it's so it's so true of of of the
book of job, but also our experience, the reason they
want to find out what job did wrong is so
that they could protect themselves from what happened to job.
It's an illusion. Wow. And, Chris, we do this all
(23:20):
the time. When something horrible happens, we want to know
who did it, who's to blame, and what they did wrong.
We want to know that they deserved it. Because if
they don't deserve it. Chris, what does that say about us? Yeah.
That we can't protect ourselves. That we can't stop this
from happening. And we know that intellectually, but we don't
(23:41):
want to believe it experientially. We don't want to believe
that there is that little control over what happens in
our lives? And so we want to be able to
attribute it to I'm I'm doing the right thing. This
person who suffered did the wrong thing there. Chris, we
do this in a million different ways, from our health
choices to any number of things. But that's one of
(24:01):
the many lessons I think, that we can pull away
from job is to recognize, and that's how God talks
about it in the end as well. This is part
of what life is like in a fallen world, and
ultimately it's only the cross of Christ that makes sense
of it. And as you pointed out earlier, Chris, yes,
this is a problem that we face as Christians. In reality,
it's a problem of all humanity. Everybody has to encounter
(24:24):
the same basic issues.
S1 (24:26):
Yeah, and we also learn from job again to tread lightly.
And our accusations that we hurled towards towards God as
if he is unjust. It's interesting how we often like
to take the credit for the good stuff for ourselves,
and then to blame him for the bad stuff. And
yet in job 42 and four he says here and
(24:50):
I will speak. I will question you, and you make
it known to me. Man, you talk about cowering under
those words, how job wilted under those words of that torrent,
of being questioned by God as the Inquisition, uh, all
of us, all of us would do well to not
(25:11):
only give grace to others, but to say, God, I
know so little. I am so small. You are so big.
And when I can't understand your ways. When I can't
track your hand. Help me to trust your heart and
your character. Well, the Bible calls Jesus a suffering servant.
(25:32):
What does that mean? And how does that help us
to understand God's sympathy and commitment to us, even through
our suffering. We're going to take up that question on
the other side of this break. It's always a great day.
Whenever Colin Hansen stops by quip. I want to encourage
you find out more about him, his work at the
Gospel Coalition, as well as his newest resource, Where is
(25:56):
God in the world with so much Evil? Go to
our website. Equip Radio.com. We'll be right back right after this.
(26:19):
Well hey there friends, welcome back to equip with Chris Brooks.
Time flies when you're having a great conversation. Such is
the case today. So grateful to have Colin Hansen with
me to talk about his newest work. Where is God
in the world with so much evil? I also want
to encourage you to become a digital evangelist. What is
a digital evangelist? It's simply someone who's willing to share
(26:42):
the resources that have impacted your life deeply with someone else.
If you've come across a podcast, a book, a resource,
a conversation, a radio program just like this that is
spoken to your heart deeply. Why don't you just click
the share button on our social media pages and say,
(27:04):
with a simple post to all of your friends and
those who trust you deeply, hey, listen to this. It's
been a blessing to me. One of the ways you
could do that is, again, to find us on social media.
You can go to Twitter or you can go to Facebook.
You can find us on Instagram. Just look for Equip Radio.
(27:25):
And again when you get there, click the share button.
Just as this conversation has hopefully encouraged your heart, it
will encourage the hearts of others as well. Colin has
been brave enough bold enough to take up the question,
Where is God in a world with so much evil.
A question that every single one of us has asked
at some point, and he's done so with boldness and compassion.
(27:49):
I want to read from Isaiah 53. Isaiah 53 has
an interesting way of describing Jesus. Verse number three of
Isaiah 53 says that he was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief. You know,
I think when we think of our Savior Triumphant, we
(28:13):
often get a revelation, one view of the Savior. And
that's a great view, uh, of him being strong and
mighty and majestic, the conquering hero, if you will. Uh,
but when you listen to Isaiah describe Jesus this way. Despised, rejected.
(28:34):
A man of sorrows, acquainted with grief. Um, what does
that speak to you about who our Savior is and
how he relates to our suffering?
S2 (28:46):
There's another description there, Chris, that is especially poignant to me.
It says he opened, not his mouth. Mhm. Just imagine this, Chris.
The the savior of the world. The agent of creation,
the one who holds all things together by the word
of his power. Hanging on the cross after having faced
(29:07):
these these false accusations, accusations lobbied against him by the
very people he came to save, especially the Jewish, the
Jewish people, the Jewish leaders, at least in this case.
And imagine him not defending himself, not defending himself, in
part because he knew that this was the mission that
his father had sent him to do. And he'd agonized,
(29:30):
he'd agonized and Gethsemane over that mission coming up to
its culmination there on the cross. I just think, Chris,
of how just kind of two points here. One is
how uncommon this is when you look at the other
world religions, when you look at the alternatives to describe
God himself in this way, I find nothing that's even
(29:53):
close to this in terms of the identification of the
Son of God with suffering, which ultimately is the answer
that Christians have maybe not a perfect intellectual question answer
as if that one exists, but a deeply personal and
emotional and experiential answer. Um, yeah. I'm just I'm just
(30:15):
struck just struck thinking about that every time I think
about that and, and I, I just there's no situation, Chris.
Just I'm on my second point here. There's no situation.
We're told that Christ himself sympathizes with us in our weaknesses,
the weaknesses of what we. I mean, he was without
(30:36):
sin and yet was became sin, taking that to the
cross and and scorning that that shame so that we
could be saved. I just don't find anything remotely parallel
to this anywhere. And then you realize it's not that
Christianity so has a problem, is that Christianity has the
(30:59):
only solution that is both intellectually sensible but also emotionally
satisfying at the same time. There just isn't any alternative.
S1 (31:09):
Yeah, I love that you brought up the fact that, um,
Christianity is not just intellectually sensible. Uh, I love that
because there are other worldviews that are pretty deeply, profoundly
philosophical in how they answer this and some even, um, appealing,
(31:29):
if you will, to the intellect. But what I think, uh,
puts Christianity over the top, in my opinion, is the
fact that God has a son and that son suffered
and died, uh, the death of an innocent man who
did no wrong and took our sins and evils upon him.
(31:53):
You know, many of our listeners will know the pain
that our family experienced 2019 when, uh, our, our oldest son, Chris,
died unexpectedly, tragically. And, um, and I remember sitting with
that and in those moments and I think, you know, this, Colin,
and anybody who's ever been through deep, deep pain and
(32:16):
loss knows this. In those moments, you're not so much
looking to have some philosophical conversation, right? What I was
not trying to look for was, uh, some volume that
was written by a dead guy 200 years ago that, um,
you know, try to tackle this from just some philosophical perspective.
(32:37):
I'm looking for who can sympathize with the hurt that
I feel that can't even be expressed through words. And, uh,
I just remember and, uh, one morning, sitting in this
pain and realizing that the father understands what I'm experiencing
(33:02):
because he, too, uh, watched his son suffer and die. That,
to me, is profound. It takes it from just the
realm of intellectualism, and it puts it in such a
relational term that I'm able to trust him not just
with my thoughts, not just with my life, but Colin
(33:23):
with my heart.
S2 (33:26):
Yeah. And I think, Chris, that that trust is what
it's all about. It's all about developing those habits and
instincts of trust. And I go back to another biblical
example here, and I know that it's one that ministered
to you during that time and subsequently as well. So
I'm walking with a really close friend of mine here
(33:48):
in town who lost his son, uh, a number of
years ago, and his immediate instinct was to go back
to David in the Old Testament and the loss of
his son. Yeah. Uh, he will not come to me,
but I will go to him. Yeah. And, of course,
that's about the resurrection. Ultimately, the cross itself is meaningful.
(34:10):
But what's powerful and what changes everything is resurrection.
S1 (34:16):
That's right.
S2 (34:16):
And what's interesting in, in David's case, is that that
son was lost as a result of his sin. That
was a judgment. But that's not the case most of
the time that we're able to able to understand. Um,
and yet nevertheless, you can just see how the Lord
ministers to David his trust in that moment to understand
not only what we see in the cross, that his
(34:37):
sin has been covered, but also that there is a
hope of resurrection someday. And that really, Chris, as you know.
S1 (34:45):
So yeah, let me let me jump in.
S2 (34:47):
It changes everything.
S1 (34:49):
Let me jump in. If I could, because you're exactly
right that minister to me greatly. And one of the
things that's really profound about this story of David after
his son's death is that he gets up from the ground.
He dresses himself, he washes, he bathes, he dresses himself
almost as if he has an appointment. And his servants
are wondering, what is he going to do? You know,
(35:11):
and and he gets up and he goes to the
house of the Lord, and he worships. And one of
the things that I've often thought about is that man,
my son Chris, is experiencing the greatest worship service, the
most glorious worship service that I could ever imagine. And
every time I'm in worship. It is a taste of
(35:34):
what we will one day experience again together. And so
what a what a blessing to have the blessed hope
of the resurrection that is ours in Christ, that he
is the resurrection and the life. And I'm so grateful
that we don't have a God who is a distant, disconnected, uh, deity,
(36:00):
that we have a God who is well acquainted with
our sufferings and our sorrows, and who loves us and says,
come to me, all of you who are weary and
heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Uh, I
hope that this conversation is encouraging you if it is,
become a digital evangelist today. Share this conversation. Call a friend.
(36:23):
Go to your social media. Make sure somebody else is
blessed as well. Also, get your copy of this wonderful
resource by Colin Hanson by going to our website equip radio. Equip.
We confront the cultural challenges of our time, offering biblical
(36:44):
truth with discernment and confidence in God's plans and purposes.
Your support as an Equipper helps us reach more people
with God's truth, and you'll receive exclusive monthly resources and
updates to encourage your spiritual life. Become an Equipper today
and partner with us in this vital ministry. Call (888)Â 644-4144
(37:07):
or go online to equip Radio.com. Welcome back to equip
with Chris Brook. So grateful for these few moments that
we get a chance to, uh, Talk and and share
(37:28):
with Colin Hansen. And I appreciate, Colin, your thoughtfulness and
taking up the question, Where is God in the world
of so much evil and man? This just scratches the surface.
There are nuggets of truth and the resource that Colin
has produced, and I want to encourage you to go
to our website to find out more, to order your copy.
(37:49):
And maybe this becomes the gift, the olive branch, if
you will, the tool that God uses to help to
restore someone's relationship with the Lord. That has been a
strange because of their journey through suffering. And, uh, I
would encourage you to do so. And I'm grateful for
the people who were willing to point me in the
(38:10):
right direction and dark nights of the soul that I've experienced,
and all of us need to sojourners. And maybe you
could be that for someone else. So go to our website,
equip radio. All right, Colin, this is where I want
to land the plane. In a few moments, we have left. Um,
what advice do you want to give to others who
maybe are walking with someone who's going through suffering? How
(38:34):
can we help someone who has suffered?
S2 (38:39):
Well, I think there are two things that stand out.
And one of them goes back to what we discussed
earlier with the friends of of job. Um, the sitting,
the presence, um, the practical help. I think sometimes we
can be dismissive of that, but it's just the willingness
to show up and not necessarily to ask how to help,
(39:01):
but to just start helping. Um, I mean, it can
be difficult. Sometimes we feel like we're being intrusive in there,
but being intrusive in suffering is more like coming in
and trying to fix the problem, or trying to solve
the problem, or trying to explain it away, or to
encourage people to like, as if you can talk them
(39:22):
out of their grief. That's Intrusiveness when it comes to
suffering for most people, but not sort of being invasively
loving of jumping in and helping them with those, with those,
those different things. And I do think, Chris, there are
some people who would be helped by this book in
that moment. For some other people, it might be helpful
(39:42):
down the line. Um, I do think it's an instructive.
What I tried to do with this book is really
just to build off Scripture and to say, lean into
that instinct of trust, encourage others to lean into that
instinct as well, and recognize the Bible itself gives a
fulsome account of that language, that language of lament, that
(40:04):
language of God. How could you allow this to happen?
You know, we've talked about the cross. We've talked about
job in here. The book of Habakkuk is a really
good place to go as well. It's a it's it's
very much addressing the same problem really. The entire experience
of exile, um, is, is rich with this. But then
beyond that again when you're showing up and you want
(40:24):
to minister to somebody, you don't know what to say.
You can't go wrong with the Psalms. The Psalms are
just full, full of this. And it's just what you
said earlier. There's an intellectual component, of course, here because
we're learning about who God is. But the emotional component
of the Psalms just cannot be matched. So show up,
get involved. Invasively love by just helping people to, you know,
(40:48):
with with everyday tasks and things like that, but also
just sit with them and even sit with them in
Scripture and the Psalms in particular, uh, stand out for their, um,
just their beauty, their reminders of God, but also just
the way we can emotionally and spiritually connect to God
through them.
S1 (41:04):
Yeah. I'm so grateful for all that you just said,
because I do think that sometimes, uh, at least in
my life, when people have asked me, you know, how
can I help? How can I be a blessing to you?
How can I serve? And I love that question. It's
so sincere, and it's the right question for the body
of Christ to ask the brothers and sisters to ask.
But there are certain times when I haven't known the answer. Like,
(41:28):
I don't even know what my soul needs. And so
I'm grateful for your encouragement to not not be, you know,
controlling or heavy handed, but to look for just practical
ways to show the love of Christ. Because sometimes if
you're waiting for someone to say, oh, I know exactly
what I need, you might be waiting a very, very
(41:49):
long time. I also appreciate you mentioning presence ministry. Just
being there. You know, when I think back to some
of the valleys of my life, I can't tell you
exactly what someone said or did. But I do remember
who was there. I can tell you, the people who
(42:10):
were there and sometimes just being there, just being willing to.
And I know that it can feel scary to sit
with somebody and their suffering, but God gives grace for that,
just as God gives us grace for salvation. I'm convinced, Colin,
that God gives us grace for suffering as well. Let's
(42:30):
just talk to pastors for a moment. I'm a pastor.
I have a huge heart for pastors in the local church.
How would you encourage us to use this resource, Colin?
Because I know so much of this can easily be
seen just as a personal resource for a personal or
private journey. But I think there's some pastoral, uh, grace here.
(42:53):
What would you say if you had a room full
of pastors and you could place this in each one
of their hands, or maybe how to best use it?
S2 (43:02):
Well, I think the best time to be thinking about
these questions is before you head into that dark night.
It goes back to what I said earlier. How are
we discipling one another for that instinct of trust? How
do we how do we encourage one another so that
when the inevitable happens. We all know how life ends.
(43:23):
It's one way or another, but we all know that
it ends the same way. We all have to be
prepared for this. We're all in the same boat. You
mentioned that earlier. Our shared humanity here. So it's a
matter of discipleship to simply prepare people well for those instincts,
to help them know, okay, when this happens, what scriptures
will come to mind? Where do I turn in? Where
(43:46):
do I turn in Scripture? What songs would be helpful
for me to sing, to kind of cultivate those levels
of trust? Or just what disciplines or just experiences with God?
How do I connect with God in those moments? I mean,
I know that I have some of those some of
those hymns that I go back to things like be still,
my soul, abide with me. You know, I know that
(44:09):
if I walked through some of those same experiences that
that you have have had to walk through, kind of
know of trying to train my soul that those are
the ones that I would go to because those are
the ones that I have gone to. Yeah. In those moments.
So use this resource to help disciple prepare people ahead
of what is unfortunately inevitable for all of us.
S1 (44:30):
Yeah, it's been said that either you are in a storm,
you just came out of one, or you're headed into one.
And I think it's important for us as the church to, uh,
not pretend as if the world is not broken. As
a matter of fact, the fact that the fall did
happen only further validates the truthfulness of God's redemptive story
(44:53):
and mission and the scriptures. And so don't shy away
from that. And, uh, let's lean in. Just like our
good brother Colin has helped to encourage us through this resource.
Let's all be willing to lean in. And if you
feel like, man, I'm not as smart as Colin Hansen.
That's all right. You got a book, you got a resource.
You don't have to go it alone. That's the beauty
(45:15):
of the body of Christ. We have a Savior and
we have one another. Colin, you are a gift to
the body. We really do appreciate you, brother. Um, how
can we best pray for you? Maybe with 30s left.
S2 (45:32):
Well, I think, Chris, we all live what we preach.
We have unspoken things and spoken things that we are
going through. Um. And I just want to be found
faithful in those moments as they continue to come with
what I've shared here on this program, what I've written
in this book. I want to live out in my
life as well. If you could pray for that, I'd
really appreciate it.
S1 (45:52):
Father, thank you for calling. I pray that you would
bless him. Let your hand of mercy and grace be
upon his family as well. And, Lord, our hearts do yearn,
that those who have been deeply wounded by this world
would find that there is a balm in Gilead, that
they would find hope in you. So may many turn
(46:14):
from sin to Christ for salvation. As a result of
this resource and this conversation, thank you for Colin and
the gift of the years to the body in Jesus name.
Amen and amen. Amen. Colin Hanson, you are off to
hot seat, brother. We appreciate you. Uh, friends, I want
to encourage you. Please go to our website. Find out more.
(46:37):
Where is God in the world with so much evil? Well,
the answer is he's there and he is not silent.
I so appreciate you tuning in to today's edition of equipped. Again,
I want to encourage you find out more at our website.
Equip radio 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Remember,
(46:57):
equip with Chris Brooks is a production of Moody Radio,
a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
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