June 30, 2025 • 47 mins
It’s easy to trust God when things are going well but what happens when we face calamity or injustice? The book of Job is a helpful guide as we navigate seasons of pain while holding onto our confidence in God. Pastor and author Christopher Ash will explore God’s relationship with Job to help us address the question: “Where is God in the midst of suffering?”
Today's Resource: Trusting God in the Darkness
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:15):
Please enjoy this encore edition of equip with Chris Brooks. Well,
hey there friends, welcome to another exciting edition of equip
with Chris Brooks. I'm absolutely thrilled and humbled that you
would listen to us today, but I want you to
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(00:36):
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(00:56):
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(01:18):
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(01:41):
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(03:34):
Radio.com is available to you. So here's the question that
we all have to wrestle with. If we believe in
the sovereignty of God, as I do, and I hope
you do, as well as the starting point for all theology,
good theology, then the question that we have to consider
or contend with is, how do we trust God through
(03:56):
seasons of suffering? I think we all find it easy
to trust God when life is going well. But what
do we do when pain seems to be the dominant
narrative of our lives? Uh, what do we do when
it seems like God is silent in our suffering. Or
even worse, that God's sovereignty is directed towards us in
(04:19):
our suffering as well. If we're going to celebrate that
he is owner of our Highland moments, our mountaintop moments,
then we also have to recognize that he is just
as much Lord in our valleys. So to help us
to process through this massive Multi-millennial old question is Christopher Ash.
(04:42):
Christopher Ash is, um, a scholar who writes with a
pastor's pen. He is a writer in residence at Tyndale
House in Cambridge. He is a full time preacher, speaker,
and writer as well. He previously served as the as
the director of the Proclamation Trust. Uh Cornhill Training course,
and as minister and church planter. He and his wife, Carolyn,
(05:06):
are members of Saint Andrew the Great Church in Cambridge
and Christopher, I think I'm right when I say you
have four, uh, just south of perfect children and seven grandchildren.
Is that right?
S2 (05:19):
Very nearly. We've now got eight grandchildren.
S1 (05:21):
Oh, wow.
S2 (05:23):
That's the last one. Was born just a month ago,
so we're now up to eight. It keeps changing.
S1 (05:29):
How have you figured out yet, uh, theologically, how to
justify the fact that the fall seems to skip grandchildren?
Have you have you been able to write on that
at all?
S2 (05:41):
Yeah, it does, doesn't it? Well, we reckon that none
of their faults come down to us.
S1 (05:47):
That's right, that's right, that's right. Well, congratulations to you
and your family. Uh, before we get into the contents
of the book, how are you doing? How is the
work going at Tyndale House?
S2 (06:01):
Uh, Tyndale House is going well. Um, personally, I think
I'm up and down. I think all the restrictions and
things have taken their toll a bit, as they have
with so many of us. And I think those of
us who are pastors at heart are these are these
are difficult days. And sometimes I find my my morale
(06:22):
a bit low as a result. But, um, today's not
a bad day. And, uh, faith is pressing on in
the good days and the bad days.
S1 (06:33):
It seems to me that even in the way you've
answered that question, it reveals a lot about the honesty,
the vulnerability that marks your life. I think that for
whatever reason, many of us as Christians have been either
inadvertently or directly, um, trained to minimize the challenges of life,
(06:55):
to quickly bypass the difficulties, to get to the good part,
to treat the Christian life as if every day was
ice cream and rainbows. But that just is not consistent
with the biblical narrative or what we experience practically in
the Christian life. Is it?
S2 (07:12):
No, no it isn't. And it's there are cultural differences.
And I guess in some ways, our Western cultures are
moving towards talking a lot about mental health, perhaps a
bit too much sometimes. Sometimes the pendulum swings the other
way and people are talking. You know, somebody says, somebody
(07:33):
made me cry. It's affecting my mental health. And we
want to say, oh, you probably need to meet someone
who's got real mental health problems.
S1 (07:42):
Yeah, yeah. I think that for us, we have major
sections of our scriptures that we would do well to
spend more time in. Um, I am drawn as a
pastor to the writings of Paul. I am drawn to
the Gospels. I find myself celebrating the Psalms. I love
(08:02):
the wisdom of the Proverbs. But it's been said and
noted Christopher, that The Book of Job might be the
hardest book of the Bible to find for most Christians.
And it's not that job moves. It's always right where
it's located. It doesn't move. It's just that many of
us don't want to find job. Because when we find job,
(08:25):
we discover, uh, a part of life that is very real,
but all too often denied or minimized. What would what
would prompt you, Christopher Ash, to write a book based
off of job?
S2 (08:41):
I think what you've just said, Chris, is a good reason.
If there's a part of the scriptures that we neglect,
it's worth trying to help one another to get into
that part because God hasn't given it to us for
no reason. And so that's a good reason. As I
(09:01):
go on working on the book of Job from time
to time. I'm just conscious how deeply relevant it is
to a Christian cultures, which in parts of the world
it's the so-called prosperity gospel, which is no gospel at all.
But I think in Western cultures it's often what I
(09:22):
call the therapeutic gospel, which is that the sort of
pseudo gospel that says, um, God is there for me
to make me feel good. And, uh, job speaks to
both of those mistakes and does so in a way
which is sobering and dark, but ultimately because it's realistic
(09:43):
and because it leads to Christ. Ultimately, it's a wonderfully
encouraging book.
S1 (09:49):
Yeah, I think that to hear you say that is
different than the way most would describe it. I think
it was Christian Smith, the sociologist, who described this generation
of In the spirituality within Christian circles as moralistic therapeutic deism.
S3 (10:10):
Yes, he did, didn't he?
S1 (10:11):
He kind of. You kind of referenced that or inferred
that in your statement. What is that for those who
may be unfamiliar with that moralistic therapeutic deism, and how
does that contrast against biblical Christianity?
S2 (10:27):
I, as I understand it and I may have got
this wrong, but as I understand it, it's the observation
that people often default to think that if there is
a God, God is somewhat distant, hence the deism, but
that God's function, if I can put it like that,
is therapeutic to make me feel good to to heal
(10:50):
me and make me feel good. And it's moralistic because
and I'm sure we'll come on to talk about this.
It's not dissimilar to the worldview of job's Comforters, and
I need to try to be good or live in,
be true to myself, that sort of thing. But if
(11:10):
I do, I can expect that life will go well
and that so much of our Christianity, um, shifts over
into that kind of shallow imitation of real discipleship. I
don't know if I've expressed that right or accurately.
S1 (11:28):
Yeah, I think you have. And I think that added
to that is kind of this sense of me centeredness,
if you will.
S3 (11:37):
Mhm.
S1 (11:37):
Um, and uh, that over deifies uh, us and cheapens
or lessens the sovereignty of God and our dependency on him.
The book and I've, I've, uh, forgive me, I failed
to mention the title of the book. It is trusting
God in the darkness, trusting God in the darkness, the
(11:57):
newest book by Christopher Ash. Subtitle A Guide to understanding
the Book of Job. How have you give us an
overview of the Book of Job when we come back
from a break, but before we go to that break.
Quick question for you. And that is this. It seems
that in a world that feels like it's spinning out
of control, that it becomes increasingly difficult to believe that
(12:19):
God has everything under his control. Uh, what do you
say to those who are struggling with that?
S2 (12:27):
It's it's a good question. Uh, but it often reveals
more about how we think the world ought to be, uh,
about our reluctance to let God be God and to
let God tell us how he governs the world. And
I think the book of Job is going to help
us a lot with that, with that question. We so
(12:51):
often the the sort of arrogance that we, we say, well,
if I were God, I wouldn't do it this way.
And because I can't understand why God governs the world
the way he does. I sometimes reject the sovereignty of
God or try to.
S1 (13:12):
With that said, let's let's prepare for a break. And
these are opportunities for you to go to our website
and investigate the resource. And I would highly commend Christopher
Ash's wonderful book to you. Very meaningful book to you
trusting God in the darkness. If you have, um, like
(13:34):
many of us, neglected the wisdom of job, if you
have felt that job is distant from you, it feels
too long or too confusing, um, or that somehow it
contains no comfort, then just know you're not alone. But
Christopher Ash has written his volume specifically for for you
(13:55):
and for all of us to be able to see
God's goodness and grace, even through the Book of Job
and even in our dark seasons. I want to encourage
your heart, and in order to do that, I'm going
to ask you to stick and stay. Don't go anywhere.
Much more to come. Next up on equip with Chris Brooks.
(14:20):
As another fiscal year comes to a close here on equip,
we're thankful for those of you who give monthly gifts
to support this program. We're seeing many lives change through
our daily conversations and your monthly gifts, as Equippers will
not only touch lives locally, but across the world. Make
a difference today and become an equipper. Call 888644 4144
(14:42):
or sign up online at Equip radio.org. Today's program has
been prerecorded so our phone lines are not open. Welcome
back to equip with Chris Brooks Trusting God in the darkness,
written by Christopher Ash, is our featured resource of the day.
I would encourage you to find out more by going
(15:03):
to our website at Radio.com. Also, our social media platforms
are available to you at Equip Radio, on Facebook and
on Twitter. We have features there for trusting God in
the darkness. It is a guide to understanding the book
of Job. And if you are wired like me, hopefully
your your love for Scripture causes you to desire to
(15:27):
delve deeper into the maybe the neglected or under resourced,
under traversed sections of Scripture. And I think for many
of us, job would qualify as an area that has
a need of deeper study. But Christopher, for those who
(15:47):
feel confused by job, maybe feel like they already know
the punchline, if you will. The moral of the story
or maybe feel that man, this book is somewhat intimidating.
You give in chapter one a basic introduction to the book,
but what would you say for those who are intimidated
(16:10):
on how to start engaging with job?
S2 (16:14):
Uh, it is an intimidating book. Uh, many of us
are familiar with the first two chapters where the story
kicks off with high drama, with scenes in heaven and
scenes on earth. And many of us are reasonably familiar
at the end with parts of the Lord's speeches and
the conclusion in the last chapter. But in between you're
(16:36):
reading them and and sometimes you just think to yourself,
I don't know who's saying what. And it is confusing.
And I've tried to write this book as a kind
of way in to the different bits of the book.
The three sections of the book are the first two chapters,
or first chapter and a half, which tells us, introduces job,
(16:57):
tells us what happened to him as a godly believer.
Then his friends are introduced at the end of chapter
two and the next long section of the book, all
the way from the end of chapter two, right the
way through to the end of chapter 31 is job
debating with his friends, uh, about why what's happening to
(17:20):
job is happening, how does God govern the world and
that kind of thing. These big questions right the way
through chapters 3 to 31. And then from chapter 32,
you begin to get the answers, first of all, through
a man called Elihu in chapters 32 to 37, and
(17:41):
then the Lord's magnificent speeches in chapters 38, 40, and 41.
And then the story draws to a close. It's not
if you get hold of the main bits of the
book and what's going on. And my little introduction, I think,
gives quite a readable way in to do that. It's
(18:01):
not nearly as bad as, as as as as you
might think when you're when you're reading through it.
S1 (18:08):
What are wheelchair questions?
S2 (18:11):
Ah, yes. In the introduction, I talk about what I
call wheelchair questions and armchair questions. And by a wheelchair question,
I mean a question that is asked from a position
of suffering. When somebody asks a real question about pain
and suffering from a position of pain and suffering, and
(18:31):
by an armchair question, I mean the kind of casual
question that a university debater or a talk show might
have where people aren't particularly suffering, but they just enjoy
tossing difficult questions around. And so I've suggested that job
is a book for those who are in the position
(18:52):
of really suffering and grappling with these questions for themselves,
or indeed for people whom they love.
S1 (18:59):
I want to start with asking some questions for those
who are listening about what you have discovered about the
nature of God. But give us a sense of how
much of your time and attention you've invested into understanding job.
S2 (19:16):
That's very hard to answer. It's been a business of
a number of years. I wrote a long commentary for
Crossway called Job The Wisdom of the cross, which goes
right through every verse of the book. And that's a
detailed commentary, this little introduction, which I originally wrote for
the UK before that. And I've redone it for North America,
(19:39):
is a lighter way in for people who don't really
want to to to plod through every verse of, of
the book. So I it's very hard to tell how
long I've spent on it. I mean, I've been working
on it on and off since about 2003. I think
(20:01):
it was two. Um, but I've been doing other things
as well. I haven't just been thinking about job.
S1 (20:08):
Well, you know, I think it's it's noteworthy to understand
you don't write a verse by verse commentary without a
tremendous amount of thought and scholarship into a book. I
say all that just to say that, um, you're, um,
qualified to be able to have this discussion with. And
so let's talk about some of the things that, at
(20:28):
least for you, Christopher Ash, you have discovered about the
nature of God. First, uh, as you read through job,
it's interesting how the book opens with, uh, Satan literally
coming before God and asking for permission, if you will, uh,
almost baiting, it seems. God concerning job. What is the
(20:52):
opening of job? Communicate to you about God and the
nature of our world as well.
S2 (21:00):
That is such a good question. And you get in
the in the two scenes in heaven, you get the
sons of God or angels. So these are beings who
are supernatural, but they're not gods, and the Satan is
one of them. Uh, and and they teach us that
(21:20):
God is absolutely sovereign, but that he chooses to govern
the world through intermediate agencies, powers that are less than
God but supernatural, and that he governs the world through
those intermediate agencies and some of those agencies, the Satan
(21:41):
and all his, um, those who work for him are evil.
So it's this really mind stretching thought that that God uses. He's.
God himself has no evil. He's not the origin of evil.
He's not behind evil. And yet he shapes and governs
the world using evil amongst other things to work out
(22:05):
his purposes of love and goodness. And I think that
really helps, because it distinguishes Christianity from a religion like Islam, which,
as I understand it, has a God who is simply
in control, full stop. Uh, and it distinguishes Christianity from
polytheism or animism, the sort of thing where there are
(22:28):
lots of different gods or goddesses all fighting it out,
and you never know who's going to win. Yes, but
the Bible's view is realistic about evil, and there are
such things as supernatural forces of evil, but they are
not divine, and God is using them and weaving them,
I think Luther famously called Satan God's Satan.
S1 (22:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, you you walk away
with no other conclusion. If you give a fair reading
to this book that God is sovereign and not only, again,
over the parts of this world and his creation that
we would deem good, but over all of it, not
just bits and parts, but all of it. That's difficult
(23:15):
for some to wrap their mind around. Understandably so. God
is not neatly packaged into our boxes or categories. Neither
are his ways or activities. I don't know about you, Christopher,
but I've always, when it comes to the question of
why evil or why pain and suffering, I've always preferred
(23:39):
to take a cumulative case approach instead of trying to
find one reason that answers for all cases of evil
or suffering in our world. But to be able to
say that there may be various reasons why this moment is.
Is happening in job's life. I think what makes it
(24:01):
so perplexing is that. Even Satan affirms that this man
is blameless. He's a man of integrity. He's a man
that seems to hold fast to his integrity. So how
do we process that?
S2 (24:19):
I have been very, very struck in studying the Book
of Job by the many ways in which job foreshadows
the Lord Jesus Christ. He's not the Lord Jesus Christ, obviously,
and he says some things he shouldn't say and has
to repent of them at the end. But in his
blamelessness and his suffering, he foreshadows the Lord Jesus Christ.
(24:43):
And there's something about undeserved suffering which reaches its culmination
in the cross, and without which there could never in
the universe be undeserved grace. And so there's something profoundly
gospel shaped about the sufferings of job, and also about
(25:07):
the sufferings of the Christian believer, which Paul calls the the,
the overflow, or what's lacking in some strange way in
the sufferings of Christ. In um, in his letter to
the Colossians. So that there's something about undeserved suffering which
is profoundly connected to undeserved grace in the universe. And
(25:32):
I found that a very, very profound thought and one
that that really helps. It doesn't answer every question. Yeah,
I'm not sure we're meant to answer every question, but
it gives us something which is really significant and gospel shaped.
S1 (25:49):
So well said. What does job teach us about weeping
with those who weep? We'll talk to Christopher about that
on the other side of this break. And what are
the biggest misconceptions about God in the midst of our suffering?
Here's what we're going to do. We're going to bless
five individuals with complimentary copies of Trusting God in the
Darkness through our social media sites. Go there now. Facebook
(26:12):
and Twitter. Equip radio. We'll be right back. Chris Brooks
here reminding you that today's program is pre-recorded and we
won't be taking your calls. Welcome back to equip with
Chris Brooks. You know, we're always committed to helping you
to build your library with great books. As a matter
of fact, if you were to check the shelves of
(26:33):
my library, you would find the books of our guests
lining them. It's because I believe that the guests we
have on this program are some of the most thoughtful
Christians that we have in this generation. Christopher Ash certainly
ranks in that group and his most recent work. Trusting
(26:53):
God in the darkness A Guide to Understanding the Book
of Job is well worth your being added to your bookshelf.
So how are we going to bless you? Well, we're
going to give away five complimentary copies today. Uh, everyone
can order a copy, so feel free to do that.
We have information links on our website for you to
(27:14):
learn more about that. If you go to our website
or program guide today, but also if you go to
our social media site and, uh, let us know you're
you're interested. And I would say three groups that could
benefit from this book, certainly pastors who want to shepherd
their people well through suffering. Um, it is very important
(27:38):
for us to be able to not only teach people
on how to honor God in the easy or good
parts of life, when life is going easily, but also
how to honor God in the hard parts of life.
And so, pastors, secondly, those who find themselves in, as
(27:58):
Christopher describes it, the wheelchair. You're in a season of
suffering yourself. Maybe physically, emotionally. Maybe you've exhausted your your hope.
As the prophet says in the Book of Lamentations, my
hope has been expended. I have no hope left. Maybe
you find yourself there. I certainly know what that's like. Uh,
(28:20):
this resource could make a huge difference in your understanding
of God. But then thirdly, maybe you're a friend to someone,
a loved one, of someone who is currently going through
a storm, a trial, and a dark season. Man, what
a blessing you could be. So I want to encourage
you to get your hands on a copy of this resource.
(28:41):
Trusting God in the darkness. Christopher Ash is the author,
and he's with us today. Um, Christopher, you know, so
many questions that that I would have about the Book
of Job. I don't know which one I wrestle with more.
I struggle with more, uh, evil that is caused by
the hands of humanity or what many would call in
(29:02):
secular world natural disasters. Both show up in the book
of job, don't they?
S2 (29:08):
They certainly do. So you get what we would call
war and terrorism, and you get something that comes from
the weather disasters that come from the weather. Um, and
they both show up and they're both treated much the same, really,
as though they come from, um, the hand of God
through Satan. And they're part of God's purposes in some
(29:31):
strange way. And it's really intense, really strong and intense.
S1 (29:39):
You have a chapter entitled weep with Those who Weep. Um,
help us to understand what that means.
S2 (29:47):
Yes. Chapter three, where job laments and he's just speaking
to himself. Really, uh, about his misery. And it's an
enormously powerful chapter. When I first preached it. Uh, I
was a pastor. We didn't have any music in our
meeting that Sunday evening. None at all. We didn't sing.
(30:09):
We didn't listen to any music. We listened to some
of Jeremiah's laments. We listened to Psalm 137. We listen
to something of the story of William Cooper, the the,
the hymn writer and his depression. And we had no music,
and it really helped us to weep with those who weep.
And I had an extraordinary response of of people in
(30:32):
the church thanking me for something that was realistic about suffering.
And there's something wonderful about about diving in to the
scriptures and feeling something of the darkness.
S1 (30:51):
It's a profound reality that you, uh, that you allude
to in the scriptures again. Um, I think in some
ways this is further affirmation of the earmarks of divinity. Um,
certainly if I'm writing a book just as a fan, uh,
I'm not including this. These dark moments of questioning lament,
(31:14):
the fact that these are included just speaks to the
fact that this is far more than a book that is, um,
inspired by humanity. Uh, I don't know about your dreams,
but in my dreams, I'm always the hero. Things are
always good, you know? Um, but this is this is
far more, uh, in in line and consistent with the
(31:36):
reality that life presents us with pain. And it is
a book that helps us to understand, uh, the source
of this and and God's grace in in the midst.
What is what was maybe your your biggest surprise in
studying job?
S2 (31:55):
I. Hard to know what to say, but I think
one of them is that job at the beginning will
have shared with his comforters, uh, certain assumptions. So they
all agreed that God is sovereign, which is true. They
all agreed that God is just, which is true. And
(32:16):
his comforters assumed that if something good happens to you,
it must mean that you did something good to deserve it.
A sort of law of karma and or In the
Sound of Music. Um, somewhere in my youth and childhood,
I must have done something good. That's the theology of
job's comforters. And job begins with that assumption. But he
(32:39):
honestly questions it because he knows it's not true for him,
and he gradually wins through by grace to this understanding,
some understanding of the sovereignty of God, and that that
there is a place for undeserved suffering in God's gracious
plans for the universe. And I think that really struck
(33:01):
me the difference between the comforters, who are just formulaic.
They're not going to let the evidence get in the
way of a good theory. And Jobe himself, who is
honestly grappling in the presence of God with these difficult questions,
and God affirms him at the end as having spoken rightly,
(33:22):
even though he says some things he shouldn't have said.
But but the big the headline, the headline is he's
spoken rightly, chapter 42, verse seven. So that was a surprise,
just to see how Joab and the comforters, they share
the understanding of any more or less serious person in
the world, that there is right and wrong. And if
(33:42):
you do right, you can expect things to go well.
And if you do wrong, you can expect things to
go badly. And that's that's how everybody begins. But the
gospel says you, there is such a thing as pure,
undeserved grace. And the reason for that is that there
is something as pure, undeserved suffering.
S3 (34:05):
It could be said across.
S1 (34:06):
It could be said when we are experiencing undeserved suffering, uh,
that our lives are pointing people to the cross, reflecting
the gospel in a lived way, uh, that allows us
to be an embodiment of the message and the ministry
of of Christ, pointing people again to the one who
(34:28):
ultimately suffered unjustly. Uh, for for your sins and for mine. Uh,
maybe a verse that sticks out to me in the
book of Job I, I first heard John Piper, I
believe it was maybe a decade ago, deliver a message
called words for the wind. Words for the wind. And
it was based off of job 626, which says, do
(34:50):
you think that you can reprove words when the speech
of a despairing man is wind? And it's as if
job is communicating. Hey, you! You're being tripped up by
my words. You're judging me for not saying everything appropriately or, um,
or sensitively, but my words are just wind right now.
(35:15):
And I think about how often in my pain and
in my suffering, um, I've had to be forgiven for, um,
maybe expressing myself in my pain in a way that
revealed the hurt, the The emotions of it. We learn
a lot about the nature of humanity through job, don't we?
S2 (35:35):
Oh, we certainly do. And we learn a lot about God.
I constantly come back to James chapter five, which talks
about the steadfastness of job, and goes straight on to say,
you've seen the purpose of the Lord, how the Lord
is compassionate and merciful. And you probably wouldn't immediately think
(35:57):
the Book of Job is about the Lord's compassion and mercy.
And yet it is. And I want to commend it
to all your listeners that The Book of Job is
a book which teaches us the Lord's compassion and mercy,
but does so in ways that really stretch our thinking.
S1 (36:17):
These friends are comforters, if you will, of job often
get criticism. Uh, but what did they get right?
S2 (36:25):
Well, they got right that God is sovereign And that
God is just. They said that constantly and job said
that and it's true. But they had no place for
undeserved suffering. So in chapter four, Eliphaz, one of the
comforters asks the question who that was innocent ever suffered?
(36:50):
And the implication is, nobody who's innocent could possibly have suffered.
And you, you say to yourself, well, there's no place
in your thinking for the cross of Christ.
S1 (37:00):
Yes, yes, yes. What a wonderful observation. And what a
profound truth. And it is no small thing for you
to say these two characteristics of God. He is sovereign
and he is just.
S3 (37:13):
These are.
S1 (37:14):
Just massive, massively important qualities of God that that married, um,
you know, uh, just in-depth study and and discussion in
particular for a generation that is so desirous of justice.
S3 (37:34):
Uh, yes. Yes, yes.
S1 (37:37):
So looking for that?
S2 (37:38):
Yeah. They sort of they kind of law without gospel.
S1 (37:43):
Yes.
S2 (37:43):
That's how I characterize them. There's no gospel in what
they say, but there's the the seeds of the law
of God are there?
S1 (37:52):
Yeah. Well, I think it is brilliant. Uh, in and, uh, the,
the way that the Spirit of God, through the book
of Job reveals to us that if we are going
to be a people that embrace unmerited grace, unmerited love,
undeserved blessing, that it seems to me that we must
(38:16):
then also recognize that there is place for what seems
to be unjustified suffering. And so, um, job teaches us
much there. We're going to take one final break, and
then when we come back, Christopher will be in the
rapid fire round, what I call the rapid fire round,
where I'm going to ask a few questions and we'll
(38:37):
get in as many of the remaining questions as possible.
And you, I hope, will do your best to give
us a well-reasoned, albeit brief, answers to these questions. Uh,
the book is trusting God in the darkness for every
pastor who's listening. Uh, this could be a wonderful tool.
This book was shaped from the preaching ministry of Christopher Ash. And, uh,
(39:01):
as always, he brings a scholar's mind and a pastor's
pen to every book that he writes. I highly recommend
it to you. If you're in the season of suffering,
you need to hear God's voice. Don't be like Adam
running from God, but run to God in your suffering.
And then if you're a sojourner, a friend, a loved one,
(39:21):
get this resource for someone you love. It can make
all the difference. Go to our website equip radio. Also
social media available one of five will pick names today.
We'll be right back. What do you do when following
Jesus leads to suffering instead of success? In her book
(39:42):
Still Standing, Lena Abujamra helps us to discover how to
find joy even in pain. Drawing from her own journey
and the truth of Scripture, she reminds us that God
uses our pain to shape us and make us more
like him. Request your copy today with a gift of
any amount to equip. Simply call 888644 4144 or visit
(40:07):
Equip radio.org. Welcome back to equip with Chris Brooks. Can't
thank Christopher Ashe enough for carving out time to be
with us. I hope you're being edified by this conversation.
We have it certainly not for mere academic reasons. My
(40:28):
desire is not to simply fill your notebook with tons
of great facts and information. Uh, it is for the living.
Scripture is given. Given to us for the living. And
I want you to be able to live well in
all seasons. That includes your seasons of suffering. To know
(40:48):
the closeness of your Savior and to recognize you don't
have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our afflictions. Um,
let's let's talk about a theology of of Satan and
the devil. What do you feel we need to know, Christopher? Uh,
about this. The influence of Satan and the devil.
S2 (41:12):
Uh, that he's real. He's supernatural. Uh, he's not an
alternative God. He is a creature, a rebellious creature, and
he is used by God against his own will for
God's purposes, and in the end, he will achieve nothing
to frustrate the sovereign good purposes of God.
S1 (41:35):
I love that, and I think that we who want
to take again the bits and pieces of Scripture that
seem convenient to us and reject the others often take
heaven while rejecting hell. Uh, we we take God and
angels while rejecting Satan and demons. And the fact is,
is the same Bible, uh, that is divine, uh, and inerrant, infallible,
(41:59):
gives us both. Um, let's talk about suffering today as Christians. Um,
what do we what should we understand as being the
difference between, uh, our suffering and non-Christian suffering?
S2 (42:13):
To put it bluntly, uh, suffering outside of Christ is
a terrible thing, but it is an anticipation of a
much worse suffering. Unless a man or woman trusts in Christ,
suffering in Christ can never be a punishment for sins
because Christ has paid for our sins. It may be
(42:36):
the father's wise discipline, or it may be something that's
part of the cost of getting the gospel out in
the world. Or it may be something we simply don't understand,
but it's in some way an overflow of the sufferings
of Christ, but not a punishment.
S1 (42:54):
It's interesting because, uh, you know, as we as we
think through what it means to be a child of God,
that relationship really marks how we understand all things, doesn't it?
S2 (43:06):
It really does. And the book of Job does not
contradict that.
S1 (43:10):
So ultimately, what is your hope for those who pick
up the book for those who would Uh, spend dedicated
time to reading through the pages. What is your hope?
S2 (43:25):
My hope is that faith in Christ will be deepened.
And that as the poetry of job seeps into our bloodstreams,
we not only understand Christ more deeply, but we feel
Christ more deeply.
S1 (43:45):
You know, I always, with every author I love to
ask a question either at the beginning or at the
end about the dedication page, because I think dedication pages
are easily overlooked, but they speak volumes. Your dedication page
reads as this to the Saints at All Saints, Little Shelford, England,
(44:09):
1997 to 2004. With thanks for all you taught me
of the love of Jesus Christ. And when I read
your dedication page, Christopher, my mind immediately went to what
is it like to traverse this world with all of
the brokenness and all of the suffering in it, inside
(44:31):
of covenant community and within, within the context of a
family of faith like All Saints. Um, versus outside of it,
I think there's much to be said about the beauty
of the local church and the communion of believers. Can
you talk somewhat about that?
S2 (44:50):
Yes. All Saints, it's a small fellowship in a village
just outside Cambridge. And I was the pastor, and they
were precious years there with, uh, those going through difficult times,
as there is, uh, in every church. But with faith.
And I can remember some pastoral visits to 1 or
(45:13):
2 going through very difficult times with much suffering, and
you weep with them. And yet there's faith there in Christ,
and Christ holds on to them through the darkness. And
I first preached the book of job, or parts of
the book of Job in that fellowship. And I learned
so much. I think I learned, I learned from the
(45:33):
book of job, but I learned from the brothers and
sisters amongst whom I was opening it up. And I'm
so thankful to God for them and for their faith
and patient perseverance makes all the difference in the world,
rather than just privately reading the Bible.
S1 (45:51):
I praise God for those who within the body of believers,
lead well. Thank God for those who serve well. But
I praise God as well for those who suffer well. Uh,
they become examples for us. Christopher, your book is nothing
short of a gift to the body of Christ. I'm
grateful for God's grace at work in your life. Thank
(46:13):
you again for carving out time to discuss how we
can trust God in the darkness. God bless you, my friend.
S2 (46:20):
Thank you for inviting me, Chris. It's been a joy
to be with you again.
S1 (46:24):
Folks, I want to encourage you. This is one of
those books of the Bible that I know it's easy
to overlook, to neglect to not be drawn to. But
job has much to teach us about Jesus. And that's
precisely the point. It is through the sufferings of job
that we are prepared for the suffering of a Savior
(46:45):
who would come to suffer for not his sin or iniquity,
but for the sins of the world, and ultimately would
provide redemption for all of us. If you don't know
that salvation. I encourage you to turn to him and
dial this number 888. Need him. Until we together again
next time. Remember, equipped with Chris Brooks is a production
(47:06):
of Moody Radio, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
Please enjoy this encore edition of equip with Chris Brooks. Well,
hey there friends, welcome to another exciting edition of equip
with Chris Brooks. I'm absolutely thrilled and humbled that you
would listen to us today, but I want you to
do me a favor. Strap on your seatbelt. We're going
to navigate through the contours of culture, as always, with
the lens of the biblical worldview on. But before we
(00:36):
do that, let me remind you, this is the day
that the Lord has made. He has given it as
a gift so that you and I can rejoice and
be glad in it. So let's do just that. Let's
follow the words of the Apostle Paul. Let's rejoice in
the Lord always. And again I say rejoice! Well, it's
amazing how quickly time flies. And if you're a part
(00:56):
of the Moody family, uh, we operate on a June
to June fiscal year, and so we are coming to
the end of yet another fiscal year. That's the end
of our financial calendar. And, you know, these types of
moments give us opportunity to reflect and to celebrate. we
want to say thank you for your faithfulness and supporting
(01:18):
the ministry. What an amazing year it's been. Obviously full
of challenges and setbacks and obstacles and all of those
realities that have come along with one of the most
difficult seasons. I think many of us would agree that
we faced in our lifetime. But through it all, we
have broadcast every single day here at equip. We see
(01:41):
people coming to faith in Christ, growing in their faith
in Christ, uh, being disciples who make disciples, who love
Jesus and who are committed to making him known. And
I want to say thank you for that. Thank you
for being committed to living, sharing and defending your faith.
That is the mission here at Equip to equip you
to do that effectively. As we approach the fiscal year end, uh,
(02:05):
it is always with the recognition that we need your partnership.
We cannot do this ministry without you. Your generosity Adds
fuel to the engine. That is the mission of equip.
Your generosity and God's grace are the only reasons that
we're able to persistently be here to communicate the gospel
(02:25):
to you, to your neighbors, to your community, and also
to answer the tough questions that that the next generation
is asking with both biblical and relevant answers. And so
I'm asking for you to prayerfully consider helping us to
finish this season strong. A couple of ways you can
do that. One is by becoming a monthly partner. Uh,
(02:47):
these are good folks who come alongside of us and
set aside maybe a dollar a day gift to $30
a month to invest in this ministry that touches the
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helping to change the world, one life at a time. Uh,
or you can give a one time gift. We call
those gifts impact gifts. And if God has blessed you
(03:10):
only if you've been edified through this ministry, what we
ask for you to support, if you're just checking us out,
please feel no pressure. But if you have been touched
by our guest, our resources, wisdom that has been offered,
could you please dial the number now? 888644 4144. I'll
give it again. It's 888644 4144. Or as always, equip
(03:34):
Radio.com is available to you. So here's the question that
we all have to wrestle with. If we believe in
the sovereignty of God, as I do, and I hope
you do, as well as the starting point for all theology,
good theology, then the question that we have to consider
or contend with is, how do we trust God through
(03:56):
seasons of suffering? I think we all find it easy
to trust God when life is going well. But what
do we do when pain seems to be the dominant
narrative of our lives? Uh, what do we do when
it seems like God is silent in our suffering. Or
even worse, that God's sovereignty is directed towards us in
(04:19):
our suffering as well. If we're going to celebrate that
he is owner of our Highland moments, our mountaintop moments,
then we also have to recognize that he is just
as much Lord in our valleys. So to help us
to process through this massive Multi-millennial old question is Christopher Ash.
(04:42):
Christopher Ash is, um, a scholar who writes with a
pastor's pen. He is a writer in residence at Tyndale
House in Cambridge. He is a full time preacher, speaker,
and writer as well. He previously served as the as
the director of the Proclamation Trust. Uh Cornhill Training course,
and as minister and church planter. He and his wife, Carolyn,
(05:06):
are members of Saint Andrew the Great Church in Cambridge
and Christopher, I think I'm right when I say you
have four, uh, just south of perfect children and seven grandchildren.
Is that right?
S2 (05:19):
Very nearly. We've now got eight grandchildren.
S1 (05:21):
Oh, wow.
S2 (05:23):
That's the last one. Was born just a month ago,
so we're now up to eight. It keeps changing.
S1 (05:29):
How have you figured out yet, uh, theologically, how to
justify the fact that the fall seems to skip grandchildren?
Have you have you been able to write on that
at all?
S2 (05:41):
Yeah, it does, doesn't it? Well, we reckon that none
of their faults come down to us.
S1 (05:47):
That's right, that's right, that's right. Well, congratulations to you
and your family. Uh, before we get into the contents
of the book, how are you doing? How is the
work going at Tyndale House?
S2 (06:01):
Uh, Tyndale House is going well. Um, personally, I think
I'm up and down. I think all the restrictions and
things have taken their toll a bit, as they have
with so many of us. And I think those of
us who are pastors at heart are these are these
are difficult days. And sometimes I find my my morale
(06:22):
a bit low as a result. But, um, today's not
a bad day. And, uh, faith is pressing on in
the good days and the bad days.
S1 (06:33):
It seems to me that even in the way you've
answered that question, it reveals a lot about the honesty,
the vulnerability that marks your life. I think that for
whatever reason, many of us as Christians have been either
inadvertently or directly, um, trained to minimize the challenges of life,
(06:55):
to quickly bypass the difficulties, to get to the good part,
to treat the Christian life as if every day was
ice cream and rainbows. But that just is not consistent
with the biblical narrative or what we experience practically in
the Christian life. Is it?
S2 (07:12):
No, no it isn't. And it's there are cultural differences.
And I guess in some ways, our Western cultures are
moving towards talking a lot about mental health, perhaps a
bit too much sometimes. Sometimes the pendulum swings the other
way and people are talking. You know, somebody says, somebody
(07:33):
made me cry. It's affecting my mental health. And we
want to say, oh, you probably need to meet someone
who's got real mental health problems.
S1 (07:42):
Yeah, yeah. I think that for us, we have major
sections of our scriptures that we would do well to
spend more time in. Um, I am drawn as a
pastor to the writings of Paul. I am drawn to
the Gospels. I find myself celebrating the Psalms. I love
(08:02):
the wisdom of the Proverbs. But it's been said and
noted Christopher, that The Book of Job might be the
hardest book of the Bible to find for most Christians.
And it's not that job moves. It's always right where
it's located. It doesn't move. It's just that many of
us don't want to find job. Because when we find job,
(08:25):
we discover, uh, a part of life that is very real,
but all too often denied or minimized. What would what
would prompt you, Christopher Ash, to write a book based
off of job?
S2 (08:41):
I think what you've just said, Chris, is a good reason.
If there's a part of the scriptures that we neglect,
it's worth trying to help one another to get into
that part because God hasn't given it to us for
no reason. And so that's a good reason. As I
(09:01):
go on working on the book of Job from time
to time. I'm just conscious how deeply relevant it is
to a Christian cultures, which in parts of the world
it's the so-called prosperity gospel, which is no gospel at all.
But I think in Western cultures it's often what I
(09:22):
call the therapeutic gospel, which is that the sort of
pseudo gospel that says, um, God is there for me
to make me feel good. And, uh, job speaks to
both of those mistakes and does so in a way
which is sobering and dark, but ultimately because it's realistic
(09:43):
and because it leads to Christ. Ultimately, it's a wonderfully
encouraging book.
S1 (09:49):
Yeah, I think that to hear you say that is
different than the way most would describe it. I think
it was Christian Smith, the sociologist, who described this generation
of In the spirituality within Christian circles as moralistic therapeutic deism.
S3 (10:10):
Yes, he did, didn't he?
S1 (10:11):
He kind of. You kind of referenced that or inferred
that in your statement. What is that for those who
may be unfamiliar with that moralistic therapeutic deism, and how
does that contrast against biblical Christianity?
S2 (10:27):
I, as I understand it and I may have got
this wrong, but as I understand it, it's the observation
that people often default to think that if there is
a God, God is somewhat distant, hence the deism, but
that God's function, if I can put it like that,
is therapeutic to make me feel good to to heal
(10:50):
me and make me feel good. And it's moralistic because
and I'm sure we'll come on to talk about this.
It's not dissimilar to the worldview of job's Comforters, and
I need to try to be good or live in,
be true to myself, that sort of thing. But if
(11:10):
I do, I can expect that life will go well
and that so much of our Christianity, um, shifts over
into that kind of shallow imitation of real discipleship. I
don't know if I've expressed that right or accurately.
S1 (11:28):
Yeah, I think you have. And I think that added
to that is kind of this sense of me centeredness,
if you will.
S3 (11:37):
Mhm.
S1 (11:37):
Um, and uh, that over deifies uh, us and cheapens
or lessens the sovereignty of God and our dependency on him.
The book and I've, I've, uh, forgive me, I failed
to mention the title of the book. It is trusting
God in the darkness, trusting God in the darkness, the
(11:57):
newest book by Christopher Ash. Subtitle A Guide to understanding
the Book of Job. How have you give us an
overview of the Book of Job when we come back
from a break, but before we go to that break.
Quick question for you. And that is this. It seems
that in a world that feels like it's spinning out
of control, that it becomes increasingly difficult to believe that
(12:19):
God has everything under his control. Uh, what do you
say to those who are struggling with that?
S2 (12:27):
It's it's a good question. Uh, but it often reveals
more about how we think the world ought to be, uh,
about our reluctance to let God be God and to
let God tell us how he governs the world. And
I think the book of Job is going to help
us a lot with that, with that question. We so
(12:51):
often the the sort of arrogance that we, we say, well,
if I were God, I wouldn't do it this way.
And because I can't understand why God governs the world
the way he does. I sometimes reject the sovereignty of
God or try to.
S1 (13:12):
With that said, let's let's prepare for a break. And
these are opportunities for you to go to our website
and investigate the resource. And I would highly commend Christopher
Ash's wonderful book to you. Very meaningful book to you
trusting God in the darkness. If you have, um, like
(13:34):
many of us, neglected the wisdom of job, if you
have felt that job is distant from you, it feels
too long or too confusing, um, or that somehow it
contains no comfort, then just know you're not alone. But
Christopher Ash has written his volume specifically for for you
(13:55):
and for all of us to be able to see
God's goodness and grace, even through the Book of Job
and even in our dark seasons. I want to encourage
your heart, and in order to do that, I'm going
to ask you to stick and stay. Don't go anywhere.
Much more to come. Next up on equip with Chris Brooks.
(14:20):
As another fiscal year comes to a close here on equip,
we're thankful for those of you who give monthly gifts
to support this program. We're seeing many lives change through
our daily conversations and your monthly gifts, as Equippers will
not only touch lives locally, but across the world. Make
a difference today and become an equipper. Call 888644 4144
(14:42):
or sign up online at Equip radio.org. Today's program has
been prerecorded so our phone lines are not open. Welcome
back to equip with Chris Brooks Trusting God in the darkness,
written by Christopher Ash, is our featured resource of the day.
I would encourage you to find out more by going
(15:03):
to our website at Radio.com. Also, our social media platforms
are available to you at Equip Radio, on Facebook and
on Twitter. We have features there for trusting God in
the darkness. It is a guide to understanding the book
of Job. And if you are wired like me, hopefully
your your love for Scripture causes you to desire to
(15:27):
delve deeper into the maybe the neglected or under resourced,
under traversed sections of Scripture. And I think for many
of us, job would qualify as an area that has
a need of deeper study. But Christopher, for those who
(15:47):
feel confused by job, maybe feel like they already know
the punchline, if you will. The moral of the story
or maybe feel that man, this book is somewhat intimidating.
You give in chapter one a basic introduction to the book,
but what would you say for those who are intimidated
(16:10):
on how to start engaging with job?
S2 (16:14):
Uh, it is an intimidating book. Uh, many of us
are familiar with the first two chapters where the story
kicks off with high drama, with scenes in heaven and
scenes on earth. And many of us are reasonably familiar
at the end with parts of the Lord's speeches and
the conclusion in the last chapter. But in between you're
(16:36):
reading them and and sometimes you just think to yourself,
I don't know who's saying what. And it is confusing.
And I've tried to write this book as a kind
of way in to the different bits of the book.
The three sections of the book are the first two chapters,
or first chapter and a half, which tells us, introduces job,
(16:57):
tells us what happened to him as a godly believer.
Then his friends are introduced at the end of chapter
two and the next long section of the book, all
the way from the end of chapter two, right the
way through to the end of chapter 31 is job
debating with his friends, uh, about why what's happening to
(17:20):
job is happening, how does God govern the world and
that kind of thing. These big questions right the way
through chapters 3 to 31. And then from chapter 32,
you begin to get the answers, first of all, through
a man called Elihu in chapters 32 to 37, and
(17:41):
then the Lord's magnificent speeches in chapters 38, 40, and 41.
And then the story draws to a close. It's not
if you get hold of the main bits of the
book and what's going on. And my little introduction, I think,
gives quite a readable way in to do that. It's
(18:01):
not nearly as bad as, as as as as you
might think when you're when you're reading through it.
S1 (18:08):
What are wheelchair questions?
S2 (18:11):
Ah, yes. In the introduction, I talk about what I
call wheelchair questions and armchair questions. And by a wheelchair question,
I mean a question that is asked from a position
of suffering. When somebody asks a real question about pain
and suffering from a position of pain and suffering, and
(18:31):
by an armchair question, I mean the kind of casual
question that a university debater or a talk show might
have where people aren't particularly suffering, but they just enjoy
tossing difficult questions around. And so I've suggested that job
is a book for those who are in the position
(18:52):
of really suffering and grappling with these questions for themselves,
or indeed for people whom they love.
S1 (18:59):
I want to start with asking some questions for those
who are listening about what you have discovered about the
nature of God. But give us a sense of how
much of your time and attention you've invested into understanding job.
S2 (19:16):
That's very hard to answer. It's been a business of
a number of years. I wrote a long commentary for
Crossway called Job The Wisdom of the cross, which goes
right through every verse of the book. And that's a
detailed commentary, this little introduction, which I originally wrote for
the UK before that. And I've redone it for North America,
(19:39):
is a lighter way in for people who don't really
want to to to plod through every verse of, of
the book. So I it's very hard to tell how
long I've spent on it. I mean, I've been working
on it on and off since about 2003. I think
(20:01):
it was two. Um, but I've been doing other things
as well. I haven't just been thinking about job.
S1 (20:08):
Well, you know, I think it's it's noteworthy to understand
you don't write a verse by verse commentary without a
tremendous amount of thought and scholarship into a book. I
say all that just to say that, um, you're, um,
qualified to be able to have this discussion with. And
so let's talk about some of the things that, at
(20:28):
least for you, Christopher Ash, you have discovered about the
nature of God. First, uh, as you read through job,
it's interesting how the book opens with, uh, Satan literally
coming before God and asking for permission, if you will, uh,
almost baiting, it seems. God concerning job. What is the
(20:52):
opening of job? Communicate to you about God and the
nature of our world as well.
S2 (21:00):
That is such a good question. And you get in
the in the two scenes in heaven, you get the
sons of God or angels. So these are beings who
are supernatural, but they're not gods, and the Satan is
one of them. Uh, and and they teach us that
(21:20):
God is absolutely sovereign, but that he chooses to govern
the world through intermediate agencies, powers that are less than
God but supernatural, and that he governs the world through
those intermediate agencies and some of those agencies, the Satan
(21:41):
and all his, um, those who work for him are evil.
So it's this really mind stretching thought that that God uses. He's.
God himself has no evil. He's not the origin of evil.
He's not behind evil. And yet he shapes and governs
the world using evil amongst other things to work out
(22:05):
his purposes of love and goodness. And I think that
really helps, because it distinguishes Christianity from a religion like Islam, which,
as I understand it, has a God who is simply
in control, full stop. Uh, and it distinguishes Christianity from
polytheism or animism, the sort of thing where there are
(22:28):
lots of different gods or goddesses all fighting it out,
and you never know who's going to win. Yes, but
the Bible's view is realistic about evil, and there are
such things as supernatural forces of evil, but they are
not divine, and God is using them and weaving them,
I think Luther famously called Satan God's Satan.
S1 (22:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, you you walk away
with no other conclusion. If you give a fair reading
to this book that God is sovereign and not only, again,
over the parts of this world and his creation that
we would deem good, but over all of it, not
just bits and parts, but all of it. That's difficult
(23:15):
for some to wrap their mind around. Understandably so. God
is not neatly packaged into our boxes or categories. Neither
are his ways or activities. I don't know about you, Christopher,
but I've always, when it comes to the question of
why evil or why pain and suffering, I've always preferred
(23:39):
to take a cumulative case approach instead of trying to
find one reason that answers for all cases of evil
or suffering in our world. But to be able to
say that there may be various reasons why this moment is.
Is happening in job's life. I think what makes it
(24:01):
so perplexing is that. Even Satan affirms that this man
is blameless. He's a man of integrity. He's a man
that seems to hold fast to his integrity. So how
do we process that?
S2 (24:19):
I have been very, very struck in studying the Book
of Job by the many ways in which job foreshadows
the Lord Jesus Christ. He's not the Lord Jesus Christ, obviously,
and he says some things he shouldn't say and has
to repent of them at the end. But in his
blamelessness and his suffering, he foreshadows the Lord Jesus Christ.
(24:43):
And there's something about undeserved suffering which reaches its culmination
in the cross, and without which there could never in
the universe be undeserved grace. And so there's something profoundly
gospel shaped about the sufferings of job, and also about
(25:07):
the sufferings of the Christian believer, which Paul calls the the,
the overflow, or what's lacking in some strange way in
the sufferings of Christ. In um, in his letter to
the Colossians. So that there's something about undeserved suffering which
is profoundly connected to undeserved grace in the universe. And
(25:32):
I found that a very, very profound thought and one
that that really helps. It doesn't answer every question. Yeah,
I'm not sure we're meant to answer every question, but
it gives us something which is really significant and gospel shaped.
S1 (25:49):
So well said. What does job teach us about weeping
with those who weep? We'll talk to Christopher about that
on the other side of this break. And what are
the biggest misconceptions about God in the midst of our suffering?
Here's what we're going to do. We're going to bless
five individuals with complimentary copies of Trusting God in the
Darkness through our social media sites. Go there now. Facebook
(26:12):
and Twitter. Equip radio. We'll be right back. Chris Brooks
here reminding you that today's program is pre-recorded and we
won't be taking your calls. Welcome back to equip with
Chris Brooks. You know, we're always committed to helping you
to build your library with great books. As a matter
of fact, if you were to check the shelves of
(26:33):
my library, you would find the books of our guests
lining them. It's because I believe that the guests we
have on this program are some of the most thoughtful
Christians that we have in this generation. Christopher Ash certainly
ranks in that group and his most recent work. Trusting
(26:53):
God in the darkness A Guide to Understanding the Book
of Job is well worth your being added to your bookshelf.
So how are we going to bless you? Well, we're
going to give away five complimentary copies today. Uh, everyone
can order a copy, so feel free to do that.
We have information links on our website for you to
(27:14):
learn more about that. If you go to our website
or program guide today, but also if you go to
our social media site and, uh, let us know you're
you're interested. And I would say three groups that could
benefit from this book, certainly pastors who want to shepherd
their people well through suffering. Um, it is very important
(27:38):
for us to be able to not only teach people
on how to honor God in the easy or good
parts of life, when life is going easily, but also
how to honor God in the hard parts of life.
And so, pastors, secondly, those who find themselves in, as
(27:58):
Christopher describes it, the wheelchair. You're in a season of
suffering yourself. Maybe physically, emotionally. Maybe you've exhausted your your hope.
As the prophet says in the Book of Lamentations, my
hope has been expended. I have no hope left. Maybe
you find yourself there. I certainly know what that's like. Uh,
(28:20):
this resource could make a huge difference in your understanding
of God. But then thirdly, maybe you're a friend to someone,
a loved one, of someone who is currently going through
a storm, a trial, and a dark season. Man, what
a blessing you could be. So I want to encourage
you to get your hands on a copy of this resource.
(28:41):
Trusting God in the darkness. Christopher Ash is the author,
and he's with us today. Um, Christopher, you know, so
many questions that that I would have about the Book
of Job. I don't know which one I wrestle with more.
I struggle with more, uh, evil that is caused by
the hands of humanity or what many would call in
(29:02):
secular world natural disasters. Both show up in the book
of job, don't they?
S2 (29:08):
They certainly do. So you get what we would call
war and terrorism, and you get something that comes from
the weather disasters that come from the weather. Um, and
they both show up and they're both treated much the same, really,
as though they come from, um, the hand of God
through Satan. And they're part of God's purposes in some
(29:31):
strange way. And it's really intense, really strong and intense.
S1 (29:39):
You have a chapter entitled weep with Those who Weep. Um,
help us to understand what that means.
S2 (29:47):
Yes. Chapter three, where job laments and he's just speaking
to himself. Really, uh, about his misery. And it's an
enormously powerful chapter. When I first preached it. Uh, I
was a pastor. We didn't have any music in our
meeting that Sunday evening. None at all. We didn't sing.
(30:09):
We didn't listen to any music. We listened to some
of Jeremiah's laments. We listened to Psalm 137. We listen
to something of the story of William Cooper, the the,
the hymn writer and his depression. And we had no music,
and it really helped us to weep with those who weep.
And I had an extraordinary response of of people in
(30:32):
the church thanking me for something that was realistic about suffering.
And there's something wonderful about about diving in to the
scriptures and feeling something of the darkness.
S1 (30:51):
It's a profound reality that you, uh, that you allude
to in the scriptures again. Um, I think in some
ways this is further affirmation of the earmarks of divinity. Um,
certainly if I'm writing a book just as a fan, uh,
I'm not including this. These dark moments of questioning lament,
(31:14):
the fact that these are included just speaks to the
fact that this is far more than a book that is, um,
inspired by humanity. Uh, I don't know about your dreams,
but in my dreams, I'm always the hero. Things are
always good, you know? Um, but this is this is
far more, uh, in in line and consistent with the
(31:36):
reality that life presents us with pain. And it is
a book that helps us to understand, uh, the source
of this and and God's grace in in the midst.
What is what was maybe your your biggest surprise in
studying job?
S2 (31:55):
I. Hard to know what to say, but I think
one of them is that job at the beginning will
have shared with his comforters, uh, certain assumptions. So they
all agreed that God is sovereign, which is true. They
all agreed that God is just, which is true. And
(32:16):
his comforters assumed that if something good happens to you,
it must mean that you did something good to deserve it.
A sort of law of karma and or In the
Sound of Music. Um, somewhere in my youth and childhood,
I must have done something good. That's the theology of
job's comforters. And job begins with that assumption. But he
(32:39):
honestly questions it because he knows it's not true for him,
and he gradually wins through by grace to this understanding,
some understanding of the sovereignty of God, and that that
there is a place for undeserved suffering in God's gracious
plans for the universe. And I think that really struck
(33:01):
me the difference between the comforters, who are just formulaic.
They're not going to let the evidence get in the
way of a good theory. And Jobe himself, who is
honestly grappling in the presence of God with these difficult questions,
and God affirms him at the end as having spoken rightly,
(33:22):
even though he says some things he shouldn't have said.
But but the big the headline, the headline is he's
spoken rightly, chapter 42, verse seven. So that was a surprise,
just to see how Joab and the comforters, they share
the understanding of any more or less serious person in
the world, that there is right and wrong. And if
(33:42):
you do right, you can expect things to go well.
And if you do wrong, you can expect things to
go badly. And that's that's how everybody begins. But the
gospel says you, there is such a thing as pure,
undeserved grace. And the reason for that is that there
is something as pure, undeserved suffering.
S3 (34:05):
It could be said across.
S1 (34:06):
It could be said when we are experiencing undeserved suffering, uh,
that our lives are pointing people to the cross, reflecting
the gospel in a lived way, uh, that allows us
to be an embodiment of the message and the ministry
of of Christ, pointing people again to the one who
(34:28):
ultimately suffered unjustly. Uh, for for your sins and for mine. Uh,
maybe a verse that sticks out to me in the
book of Job I, I first heard John Piper, I
believe it was maybe a decade ago, deliver a message
called words for the wind. Words for the wind. And
it was based off of job 626, which says, do
(34:50):
you think that you can reprove words when the speech
of a despairing man is wind? And it's as if
job is communicating. Hey, you! You're being tripped up by
my words. You're judging me for not saying everything appropriately or, um,
or sensitively, but my words are just wind right now.
(35:15):
And I think about how often in my pain and
in my suffering, um, I've had to be forgiven for, um,
maybe expressing myself in my pain in a way that
revealed the hurt, the The emotions of it. We learn
a lot about the nature of humanity through job, don't we?
S2 (35:35):
Oh, we certainly do. And we learn a lot about God.
I constantly come back to James chapter five, which talks
about the steadfastness of job, and goes straight on to say,
you've seen the purpose of the Lord, how the Lord
is compassionate and merciful. And you probably wouldn't immediately think
(35:57):
the Book of Job is about the Lord's compassion and mercy.
And yet it is. And I want to commend it
to all your listeners that The Book of Job is
a book which teaches us the Lord's compassion and mercy,
but does so in ways that really stretch our thinking.
S1 (36:17):
These friends are comforters, if you will, of job often
get criticism. Uh, but what did they get right?
S2 (36:25):
Well, they got right that God is sovereign And that
God is just. They said that constantly and job said
that and it's true. But they had no place for
undeserved suffering. So in chapter four, Eliphaz, one of the
comforters asks the question who that was innocent ever suffered?
(36:50):
And the implication is, nobody who's innocent could possibly have suffered.
And you, you say to yourself, well, there's no place
in your thinking for the cross of Christ.
S1 (37:00):
Yes, yes, yes. What a wonderful observation. And what a
profound truth. And it is no small thing for you
to say these two characteristics of God. He is sovereign
and he is just.
S3 (37:13):
These are.
S1 (37:14):
Just massive, massively important qualities of God that that married, um,
you know, uh, just in-depth study and and discussion in
particular for a generation that is so desirous of justice.
S3 (37:34):
Uh, yes. Yes, yes.
S1 (37:37):
So looking for that?
S2 (37:38):
Yeah. They sort of they kind of law without gospel.
S1 (37:43):
Yes.
S2 (37:43):
That's how I characterize them. There's no gospel in what
they say, but there's the the seeds of the law
of God are there?
S1 (37:52):
Yeah. Well, I think it is brilliant. Uh, in and, uh, the,
the way that the Spirit of God, through the book
of Job reveals to us that if we are going
to be a people that embrace unmerited grace, unmerited love,
undeserved blessing, that it seems to me that we must
(38:16):
then also recognize that there is place for what seems
to be unjustified suffering. And so, um, job teaches us
much there. We're going to take one final break, and
then when we come back, Christopher will be in the
rapid fire round, what I call the rapid fire round,
where I'm going to ask a few questions and we'll
(38:37):
get in as many of the remaining questions as possible.
And you, I hope, will do your best to give
us a well-reasoned, albeit brief, answers to these questions. Uh,
the book is trusting God in the darkness for every
pastor who's listening. Uh, this could be a wonderful tool.
This book was shaped from the preaching ministry of Christopher Ash. And, uh,
(39:01):
as always, he brings a scholar's mind and a pastor's
pen to every book that he writes. I highly recommend
it to you. If you're in the season of suffering,
you need to hear God's voice. Don't be like Adam
running from God, but run to God in your suffering.
And then if you're a sojourner, a friend, a loved one,
(39:21):
get this resource for someone you love. It can make
all the difference. Go to our website equip radio. Also
social media available one of five will pick names today.
We'll be right back. What do you do when following
Jesus leads to suffering instead of success? In her book
(39:42):
Still Standing, Lena Abujamra helps us to discover how to
find joy even in pain. Drawing from her own journey
and the truth of Scripture, she reminds us that God
uses our pain to shape us and make us more
like him. Request your copy today with a gift of
any amount to equip. Simply call 888644 4144 or visit
(40:07):
Equip radio.org. Welcome back to equip with Chris Brooks. Can't
thank Christopher Ashe enough for carving out time to be
with us. I hope you're being edified by this conversation.
We have it certainly not for mere academic reasons. My
(40:28):
desire is not to simply fill your notebook with tons
of great facts and information. Uh, it is for the living.
Scripture is given. Given to us for the living. And
I want you to be able to live well in
all seasons. That includes your seasons of suffering. To know
(40:48):
the closeness of your Savior and to recognize you don't
have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our afflictions. Um,
let's let's talk about a theology of of Satan and
the devil. What do you feel we need to know, Christopher? Uh,
about this. The influence of Satan and the devil.
S2 (41:12):
Uh, that he's real. He's supernatural. Uh, he's not an
alternative God. He is a creature, a rebellious creature, and
he is used by God against his own will for
God's purposes, and in the end, he will achieve nothing
to frustrate the sovereign good purposes of God.
S1 (41:35):
I love that, and I think that we who want
to take again the bits and pieces of Scripture that
seem convenient to us and reject the others often take
heaven while rejecting hell. Uh, we we take God and
angels while rejecting Satan and demons. And the fact is,
is the same Bible, uh, that is divine, uh, and inerrant, infallible,
(41:59):
gives us both. Um, let's talk about suffering today as Christians. Um,
what do we what should we understand as being the
difference between, uh, our suffering and non-Christian suffering?
S2 (42:13):
To put it bluntly, uh, suffering outside of Christ is
a terrible thing, but it is an anticipation of a
much worse suffering. Unless a man or woman trusts in Christ,
suffering in Christ can never be a punishment for sins
because Christ has paid for our sins. It may be
(42:36):
the father's wise discipline, or it may be something that's
part of the cost of getting the gospel out in
the world. Or it may be something we simply don't understand,
but it's in some way an overflow of the sufferings
of Christ, but not a punishment.
S1 (42:54):
It's interesting because, uh, you know, as we as we
think through what it means to be a child of God,
that relationship really marks how we understand all things, doesn't it?
S2 (43:06):
It really does. And the book of Job does not
contradict that.
S1 (43:10):
So ultimately, what is your hope for those who pick
up the book for those who would Uh, spend dedicated
time to reading through the pages. What is your hope?
S2 (43:25):
My hope is that faith in Christ will be deepened.
And that as the poetry of job seeps into our bloodstreams,
we not only understand Christ more deeply, but we feel
Christ more deeply.
S1 (43:45):
You know, I always, with every author I love to
ask a question either at the beginning or at the
end about the dedication page, because I think dedication pages
are easily overlooked, but they speak volumes. Your dedication page
reads as this to the Saints at All Saints, Little Shelford, England,
(44:09):
1997 to 2004. With thanks for all you taught me
of the love of Jesus Christ. And when I read
your dedication page, Christopher, my mind immediately went to what
is it like to traverse this world with all of
the brokenness and all of the suffering in it, inside
(44:31):
of covenant community and within, within the context of a
family of faith like All Saints. Um, versus outside of it,
I think there's much to be said about the beauty
of the local church and the communion of believers. Can
you talk somewhat about that?
S2 (44:50):
Yes. All Saints, it's a small fellowship in a village
just outside Cambridge. And I was the pastor, and they
were precious years there with, uh, those going through difficult times,
as there is, uh, in every church. But with faith.
And I can remember some pastoral visits to 1 or
(45:13):
2 going through very difficult times with much suffering, and
you weep with them. And yet there's faith there in Christ,
and Christ holds on to them through the darkness. And
I first preached the book of job, or parts of
the book of Job in that fellowship. And I learned
so much. I think I learned, I learned from the
(45:33):
book of job, but I learned from the brothers and
sisters amongst whom I was opening it up. And I'm
so thankful to God for them and for their faith
and patient perseverance makes all the difference in the world,
rather than just privately reading the Bible.
S1 (45:51):
I praise God for those who within the body of believers,
lead well. Thank God for those who serve well. But
I praise God as well for those who suffer well. Uh,
they become examples for us. Christopher, your book is nothing
short of a gift to the body of Christ. I'm
grateful for God's grace at work in your life. Thank
(46:13):
you again for carving out time to discuss how we
can trust God in the darkness. God bless you, my friend.
S2 (46:20):
Thank you for inviting me, Chris. It's been a joy
to be with you again.
S1 (46:24):
Folks, I want to encourage you. This is one of
those books of the Bible that I know it's easy
to overlook, to neglect to not be drawn to. But
job has much to teach us about Jesus. And that's
precisely the point. It is through the sufferings of job
that we are prepared for the suffering of a Savior
(46:45):
who would come to suffer for not his sin or iniquity,
but for the sins of the world, and ultimately would
provide redemption for all of us. If you don't know
that salvation. I encourage you to turn to him and
dial this number 888. Need him. Until we together again
next time. Remember, equipped with Chris Brooks is a production
(47:06):
of Moody Radio, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
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