April 2, 2025 • 47 mins
Chris Brooks updates us on his daughter's health journey and shares insights from the Lord as he watches over her and his family this season.
Loneliness, stress, and anxiety are reaching record highs, and many are discovering that simply "following their hearts" isn’t leading to true joy. A deep spiritual hunger is growing—but where can lasting fulfillment be found? Pastor and author Brad Edward reveals how the church is God’s spiritual greenhouse—a place where weary souls are restored and empowered to thrive in this life and for eternity.
Today's resource: The Reason for Church
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:19):
And welcome to equipped. I'm Colin Lambert sitting in for
Chris Brooks today. Thank you so much for being with us.
You know, the evangelical church seems to be hemorrhaging. Over
40 million Americans have de-churched in the last 25 years.
And we have generations that have been raised to believe
the most spiritual thing they can do to follow God
(00:41):
is to follow their heart right out of the church doors.
That's our topic. Today is the reason for church, and
we're going to get to that in just a moment.
But as you know, the host of this program, Chris Brooks,
has taken some time away from the program to care
for his family while his daughter is in treatment for cancer.
But today, Chris wanted to stop by and to bring
(01:03):
us an update. Chris. So good to hear your voice today,
my friend.
S2 (01:08):
Colin. Can I tell you how much I love that
opening music? What a blessing it is man, I miss you.
I miss all of our friends. The equip family. It
is so good to be with you and special, special
appreciation for the team and the amazing folks who have
(01:28):
filled in while I've been away. Thank you so very much,
Brother Chris.
S1 (01:35):
Uh, just take a moment, if you would. I know
people have been praying, uh, consistently for you and your family.
Would you just give us an update?
S2 (01:43):
Yeah. We're so appreciative of that. I just want to
say how grateful we are for the many expressions of
love and prayer and encouragement for us. It's just been
wind beneath our wings, and it's been a huge blessing
to to our hearts. Just a quick update. Uh, as
many of you guys know, back in December, our daughter Zoe,
(02:05):
our oldest daughter, 18, was diagnosed officially with cancer, kind
of this rare form of blood cancer, and we've been
walking this journey ever since. And the good news is,
is that they have been able to, uh, come up
(02:25):
with a wonderful treatment plan. She has a great medical team. Colin,
you know how important doctors are. It's such an important ministry. And,
you know, praise God that sometimes he heals us miraculously
without the intervention of doctors and hospitals and medicines. But sometimes,
in his wisdom, he chooses to use those means of grace.
(02:49):
And we're certainly grateful for the medical team and hospitals
that we've been able to work with. Um, we are
kind of set up on this rhythm of she has this, uh,
cadre of, uh, things she has to do to be well,
but we're set up on this rhythm of kind of
monthly check ins. And the good news is, is that, uh,
(03:10):
our last monthly check in, which took place a couple
of weeks ago, showed really good progress, really good lab results,
really good results. Um, she's a fighter, she's resilient, she's
doing well. And we got one more appointment we got
to go to in about a week from now. And
if that goes well and we're hopeful that it will,
(03:32):
she'll get the green light to be able to go
back to campus, resume her studies in college. And, uh,
we are really, really hopeful for that.
S1 (03:42):
Wow. That's incredible. And so good to hear the progress.
I know from my recent experience in the last year,
every little update can, uh, just be a bright light
in the midst of some, uh, challenging times. So what
a blessing to hear that. Thank you for that update, Chris. Uh,
you know, you sit here each day in your normal
(04:05):
program and you talk about the things of life and
how to deal with those things of life. What kind
of lessons are you learning in the midst of what
God is taking your family through right now?
S2 (04:17):
Yeah. You know, growing up as a kid in church,
you sing that great hymn that reminds us that we're leaning,
leaning on the arms of God, leaning on his everlasting arms.
And I think this is where my wife and I,
our family, has been. We have never been more weak
(04:38):
than what we are right now. And I mean that
in a most vulnerable sense of the word. It's been
a season where it's not our own strength that carries us,
and we are very much mindful that it's his grace
that carries us. And so we have thrown ourselves completely, uh,
in dependency upon the mercy of the Lord. But I
(05:00):
am glad to be able to say that he is faithful,
that he is everything he says he is, and he
will do everything that he says he will do. That
does not mean that life is not without its challenges
and valleys. Colin, you just referenced yours. Every single person
that's listening to me, uh, is, uh, is very familiar
(05:21):
with their own challenges. What is true for 100% of
us is that we will all walk through valleys. But
one of the things that I've been doing with my
kids in this season is walking through the Psalms, and
this morning with my 14 year old son, the psalm
that we got a chance to read. And I'm just
going to read a couple verses. Colin, if that's okay. Sure. Uh,
(05:43):
with Psalm 46. Psalm 46 opens this way. God is
our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.
Therefore we will not fear. Though the earth give way,
though the mountains be moved into the heart of the sea,
though its waters roar and foam, though the mountains tremble
(06:05):
at its swelling. You know what a reminder to us
and what I said to my son, what I reminded
myself of this morning, what I will remind everyone who's
listening to us, is that the Bible never gives us
this Pollyanna theology that if you have enough faith, troubles
won't come. It gives us the opposite, that because of
sin and fallenness, we live in a fallen world. But
(06:29):
God is with us and he is our refuge. He
is faithful. So that's the big thing that we've learned.
The other thing that we've learned, Colin, and I'm so
glad you're going to be talking about this today is
the beauty of the local church. Um, it is such
a special gift to be surrounded by brothers and sisters
(06:54):
in Christ. I'm so glad that I have more than
just an online relationship with with our church. I'm so
glad that I have more than just my favorite TV
preacher or radio personality. As important as those folks may
be in my spiritual development, and I praise God for radio,
(07:14):
I praise God for those who minister through those means. Um,
all of us, all of us need a church family.
We need real relationships. We need real community. We need, uh,
real spiritual family. And I'm grateful to have those folks
in my life that are praying for us, checking on us,
(07:36):
loving us, sometimes reminding us, uh, to lift our heads up,
to be reminded of who we are in Christ and
what he's promised us. And so I'm grateful for the
local church, grateful for the promises of God's Word. And
I'm happy to report in this season that we're encouraged,
and I hope that that encourages some folks as well.
S1 (07:56):
Yeah. As a senior pastor, you know, the power of
the local church, and I pray that your church is
coming around to you in a mighty way as well.
S2 (08:05):
Yeah. And they are. And, you know, it's so funny
because you would think, well, of course they are. You're
a pastor, but so many pastors can tell you of
seasons where they went through and they didn't feel cared for.
They didn't feel loved. And I want to say as well, um,
the Moody family has been absolutely incredible. I love, love,
(08:28):
love moody. Um, we're a place that is known for
the truth, um, bringing the word to life. And that
is certainly, um, our commitment. Our commitment is to the scriptures. Um,
but the people behind the scenes, uh, yourself, Deb Solomon. Chris,
(08:49):
who's taking care of everything technical right now? Uh, Wes Ward. Uh,
so many of the folks, Judy, I could go on
and on who have, um, prayed for us, cared for us,
cry with us. Um, I'm grateful to be a part
of this family, Colin. Alan, and I'm more optimistic about
the future of what God has called us to than
(09:10):
I've ever been. And and the need. The need is
so great for the gospel. The need is so great.
Behind everything you just shared when you opened up. And
I love your opening about the hemorrhaging of the church
and the people who are deconstructing and walking out the
church doors. You know what's in the wake of all
of that? That may in a moment be cool or
(09:34):
chic or, you know, kind of the in thing to
do is to kind of deconstruct or leave your church
or whatever the case may be, but you're going to
run into something that is greater than your own wisdom
that will outstrip your bank account, that is beyond your
ability to control. And when you're confronted with those realities
(09:55):
like we are right now, when you're humbled by the
realities of life, that is when the consequences of those
decisions are felt and in the wake of it is
so much brokenness. And what I think the church has
to do is continue to stand ready to care for,
to minister to the needs of those who will look
(10:17):
up and say, what a foolish thing I've done to
walk away from the only one who's loved me enough
to die for me, and to walk away from the church.
That maybe in her imperfections left some scars. But. But
has loved me well. And I pray that there will
be a lot of people, and I think there will
(10:39):
be a lot of people who will come back to
the church, and I hope we'll be ready to receive them.
S1 (10:44):
Amen. Amen. Chris, great to hear your voice. Great to
talk to you. Appreciate you so much, my friend. We
will continue to ask people to continue to pray for
you and Zoe and the whole family. Uh, bless you brother.
Love you much.
S2 (10:57):
Yeah. Love you guys. Have a great show today.
S1 (11:01):
All right, my friends, it's great to hear from Chris.
What a word of encouragement from him today. If you're
going through some tough stuff, I think that's something worth
listening to today. Coming up in just a moment, we're
going to talk about the reason for church, why the
body of Christ still matters in an age of anxiety, division,
and radical individualism. Our guest is Brad Edwards. We're going
(11:23):
to come back in just a moment with him, with
your phone calls as well. It's going to be a
good hour. Stick with us here on equipped with Chris Brooks.
We'll be back with more coming up in just a
couple of minutes.
S2 (11:47):
Christianity speaks to every aspect of life, but sometimes we
struggle to connect God's unchanging truth to our changing world.
S3 (11:54):
Apologetics for an Ever Changing Culture by Sean McDowell equips
you with the practical tools for meaningful conversation about faith.
With chapters from 26 leading Christian thinkers, including our own
Chris Brooks. It's our impact gift this month to you.
When you support the Ministry of Equipped, call (888)Â 644-4144 or
(12:18):
visit equipped radio.org.
S1 (12:25):
Welcome back to equipped with Chris Brooks I'm Colin Lambert
sitting in for Chris today. So great to get an
update from Chris just moments ago. And we'll ask you
to continue to be praying for Chris and his family. Well,
I mentioned it earlier. The evangelical church is hemorrhaging. Over
40 million Americans have de-churched in the last 25 years,
and new generations have been raised to believe that the
(12:48):
most spiritual thing they can do is follow their heart
right out the doors of the church. Yet it seems
this shift is happening right as society is hitting record
levels of loneliness, stress, and anxiety. So what are the answers? Well,
we hope to find some of those today with our guest,
Brad Edwards. He is the church planter of the Table
Church in Lafayette, Colorado, where he lives with his wife, Hannah,
(13:11):
and their two sons. He's author of a brand new
book which is yet to come out. It comes out
later this month, April 22nd. You'll want to get this
on your list because it is a powerful book. It's
called The Reason for Church Why the Body of Christ
Still Matters in an age of anxiety, division, and radical individualism. Brad,
great to have you with us today on equipped.
S4 (13:32):
Hey, thanks for having me and I've been really looking
forward to this conversation. So this is great.
S1 (13:37):
Yeah. Me too. And I want to start with your
story a little bit before we get into some of
the details of the book, because I think your story
really plays into where a lot of people at some
point cross their church relationship. Tell us a little bit
about growing up and your relationship with the church.
S4 (13:55):
Yeah. Well, growing up I had absolutely no relationship with
the church whatsoever. I grew up non-Christian, and it wasn't
until the end of my junior year of college that
I became a Christian. And in a lot of ways,
it was kind of what you're alluding to is in
a lot of ways, despite the church. I vividly remember
(14:15):
in college going to a campus ministry, worship service, you know,
two times I was in a really low place and
really longing for some kind of truth, goodness and beauty
that transcended this, this kind of deep spiritual depression that
I was in. And I remember, um, praying to God
and just asking him and telling, actually not asking. That
would have been probably better, honestly. But I very rudely
(14:39):
demanded of God that if you don't have somebody, anybody
talk to me, if I when I go back to
this campus ministry one more time, I'm done. I'm not
going to try anymore. And it was that last time that, uh,
somebody who happened to live next door to me in
my dorm room who, uh, was very shocked that I
was there because I was not the kind of person
who would, um, who would who would ever set foot
(15:02):
in a church or a worship service of any kind,
because I was the kind of guy that who, um,
you know, when, when an open air preacher would come
to campus or, um, you know, be proclaiming the gospel,
but more often than not, yelling repent! Um, and trying
to provoke conversation. I was the guy who would go
up to that guy, skip class and argue with him. Uh,
because I disbelieved everything that he was saying. And so
(15:24):
it was a very unlikely, um, coming to Christ for
me in a whole lot of ways. But that's, like
you said, a huge reason why I'm so passionate about
seeing the church be this embodiment of, of, of the
gospel in ways that can help offer this truth, goodness
and beauty that we're all longing for.
S1 (15:42):
I mentioned just a moment ago about how many people
have left the church for one reason or another, over
the last 25 years. Uh, is that reason alone why
you wrote the book, or is there more to it
than just the fact that there's this hemorrhaging going on.
S4 (15:58):
Well, yeah. When I was called into ministry, I had
a very real sense that it was at the same
time that, you know, Tim Keller and acts 29 this
we were kind of on the front edge of this, uh,
church planting golden age. And so I very quickly felt
called to church planting in one form or another and
have been planting the table out here in Boulder County, Colorado,
(16:20):
for the last ten years. Now, basically, we've been we've
been worshiping as a church for the last eight and
a half. And if you know anything about, um, Boulder
or just the the west western United States, this is
a hyper individualistic place. And so it's one of the,
the shocks, um, you know, combination of pleasant and difficult
(16:42):
surprises was realizing just how much people were open to
the idea of God even hearing about Jesus in the gospel,
but utterly closed to the idea of church or participating
in church in any way, because there's just an a
baked in cultural assumption that institutions are bad. And therefore
the best way to to know God is actually to
(17:05):
to stay away from institutions like the church of the church,
of which the church is one. And and that we
don't need it. In fact, it's actually harmful if we're
part of a church because it constrains our individuality in
some way.
S1 (17:16):
Um, as a church planter, that must have been quite
a shock to learn that that's what you were going into.
That people were interested in spiritual things and yet didn't
want to darken the door of your church. Mhm.
S4 (17:30):
Yeah. No, that that was surprising but not, not shocking.
I think the thing that was much harder actually, was
realizing just how much Christians had actually been shaped and
formed to view the church in a similar way. I
think there's a there's a posture and a belief that
the church is like, you know, it's not ideal. You know,
(17:52):
it's but maybe it's at worst a necessary evil. But
if at best kind of a means to my end
and to my spiritual growth, and that has all kinds
of of implications about what it looks like to follow
Jesus and to do discipleship in a local church, that
if you don't know and aren't aware of those cultural
assumptions and values and how much you're operating off of
(18:13):
those as on the basis of faith, honestly, that it
makes those things so much harder. And it's going to
make your church experience, actually, that much more fraught.
S1 (18:25):
In the first part of your book, you talk about
how individualism has affected the church and people's engagement with
the church. Talk for a moment about that. What is
how does that play out? What does individualism look like
as people are considering or, uh, choosing not to go
to a local church?
S4 (18:45):
Yeah, I think this the individualism is just, you know,
we're fish in water, we're swimming around in it. And
to ask a fish, hey, what's. What's it like to
be wet? A fish is going to have a hard
time knowing how to describe that, because that's the waters.
The only waters they've ever been swimming in. And so
this is something that very much shapes and influences the
(19:06):
lens that both Christians and non-Christians bring to the table
for that. Um, pun intended. Since my church's name. The table. Um,
and what it does, is it, you know, for Christians especially,
it kind of makes us view the church like a
spiritual nonprofit, right? We, you know, we we we approach
the church as a means to, uh, grow spiritually, to
(19:31):
be shaped and formed, to grow in our own walk
with Christ. And those are all true and all very
good things. But that's actually not the reason why a
church exists. The church exists to help God's people love
God and their neighbor, and the the spiritual formation we
experience is part of that is the fruit of it.
But when you put the fruit as the purpose of it.
(19:53):
It has all these distortions downstream. Um, here's a good example.
I mean, as a church planter, um, if you if
anybody who's been in a church planter knows, um, a
church planter, these church planters will tell you that one
of the hardest thresholds to get past is, you know,
this kind of chicken or egg tension of youth ministry, right?
You're trying to build a church from scratch. There's nothing established.
(20:16):
And yet, as, um, as your kids start aging and
getting into that, that stage of life where you need
something that a ministry that helps them walk with Jesus
and to take the faith and make it their own. Um,
how do you do that without a critical mass of
people who are, who can, are willing to kind of
stay and tough it out until it gets established? Well,
I've we've had, you know, more than several families leave
(20:40):
our church to go to another church that has an
established youth ministry. And often I hear two things, you know,
on as as I have that conversation with them. One,
it's not personal, which I get and understand that like
as a pastor, it's always going to be personal for me.
And it's that's always hard and painful and I get that.
But that betrays something about how we view church, right?
(21:04):
You can leave for another youth ministry and it not
be for the reason of like, hey, my kids really
love the pizza parties they throw, you know, like and
the silly games. Like, that doesn't have to be your motivation.
Your motivation can still be like, I want my kids
to know Jesus. And I'm so sympathetic to that. Yeah.
And yet, what does it teach our kids about the
purpose of God's of Christ's body and bride? What does
(21:28):
it what does it tell them? The purpose of church is?
And I think a lot of the deconstruction that you
were talking about in the intro is a result of,
of like, we think the church has failed us because
it's not helping us, um, fulfill our, our God given potential.
And that makes us disillusioned and disenchanted. And we end
(21:48):
up often leaving the church in that disillusionment. But we're
leaving the very means by which God meets us, where
we are. The locus of his authority and his presence
and and how we are shaped to view the world
based on how God defines what is true, good and beautiful,
and not how we define it.
S1 (22:08):
As you were studying this topic and putting this book together,
were there specific things that you found that either were
tied to individualism or just to the fact that people
didn't seem to want to attend church or have left church,
or they're 2 or 3 things that that we could
grab a hold of that that people have said to
(22:29):
you or you have found out along the way, make this, uh,
unfortunate thing happen.
S4 (22:36):
I mean, this is this is part of the reason
why this is so such a difficult thing for fish
to describe the experience of being wet. Right? So in
the first half of the book, I talk about these five.
I call them church defeaters of individualism. And that's kind
of a riff off of Tim Keller's um, Defeater beliefs
from his book The Reason for God. And that's why
this book is called The Reason for church. And these
(22:58):
these church defeaters are cultural assumptions that we don't even
realize we believe or see the world through. And so therefore,
we often aren't able to even articulate it. And so
you have to actually go beneath the surface of the
reasons why people are giving for leaving the church. Um,
what I was just describing about youth ministry is, is
related to the first church defeater, which is spiritual pragmatism.
(23:20):
And so if we define, uh, what is true, good
and beautiful by what works for us, which is is
something that is like, we have this we have that
posture and approach to so many things in life. And
if we have that posture toward church, then it's going
to make it like staying in a church really difficult
because Jesus is call to pick up our cross and
(23:41):
follow him. You know, there's not a whole lot of
potential fulfilling in that process. Resurrection is only on the
other side of dying to ourselves. And and so there's
a there's a disconnect there that makes the what what
God brings us through. And in our involvement in a
church that much harder to to kind of to accept
(24:03):
or to understand or see how it's actually contributing to
our good. And so these, these five church defeaters that
I talk about the problem with them. Uh, there's, there's
many problems with them, but, um, they make church implausible,
if not impossible, but they aren't satisfying or sustainable by
their own standards and merits. They actually don't bring the,
(24:23):
the meaning and the, the belonging that we that we
are made for in Christ. And so that's why honestly,
if you if you trace these and follow them to
their conclusion, they go right to all of these kind
of social crises that that people are talking about right now,
whether you talk about the meaning crisis or this loneliness
epidemic or the culture wars, all of that is Downstream
(24:45):
of these fundamental assumptions that when they lead us out
of the church because they're incompatible with it, that that's
that's just the those are symptoms of a deeper spiritual problem.
S1 (24:57):
Yeah. Uh, would you name another Defeater? And then we're
going to take a break. We'll come back and elaborate
on it, but maybe another defeater that we can think about.
S4 (25:05):
Absolutely. I think, um, I think one that seems to
resonate a whole lot with people is this idea of
the sacred self.
S1 (25:13):
Mhm. Sacred self. That's that's big today for sure. We're
talking with Brad Edwards. The reason for church why the
body of Christ still matters in an age of anxiety
division and radical individualism. Colin Lambert sitting in for Chris
Brooks on Equip today and our phone lines are open. 87754836758775483675.
(25:37):
We're going to come back with your calls as well.
Have you left church for maybe some of the reasons
we're talking about. Have you had some kind of issue
where you left, do you do you feel like maybe
you don't need church? That just, uh, studying the Bible
on your own is enough? Or maybe you've returned to
church and have a story to tell about why it's
become so important to you again. (877)Â 548-3675. We'll be back
(26:02):
with more equipped with Chris Brooks coming up in just
a moment. Stay with us. Equipped is here to help
(26:22):
you live, share and defend your faith in our rapidly
changing culture. And that's why Chris Brooks has chosen Sean
McDowell's new book, apologetics for an ever Changing Culture as
our Impact gift. When you support the work of equipped
this month, there's contributions for 23 leading voices in Christian apologetics.
Six interview expert interviews as well, and the book is
(26:46):
addressing some classic and new apologetics issues, including the mental
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a biblical and culturally relevant way to share your faith,
just ask for the apologetics book. When you give your
gift to equipped, you can call 86444 4144. 888644 4144
(27:10):
or go online at Equip radio Dot Colin Lambert sitting
in for Chris today. We're talking about the reason for
church with Brad Edwards. Brad is the church planter of
the Table Church in Boulder, Colorado. He's written a book
which is coming out April 22nd. We'll have all the
information on our website at equipped Radio.com. Information about him
(27:32):
and about this book. I encourage you to add it
to your reading list. It is fascinating. It's called The
Reason for Church Why the Body of Christ Still matters
in an age of anxiety, Division and radical individualism. And Brad,
just before the break, we were talking about some of
these defeaters, these things that either push people out of
the church or keep people from being engaged. Tell us
(27:52):
again what that next defeater was and tell us a
little about it.
S4 (27:58):
Yeah. So the next Defeater is the sacred self, and
it's made up of two parts. There's the first part
is in intuitionism, and then the second part is the
way that we use therapeutic language to describe this internal
reality that intuitionism uses to guide itself to what is true,
good and beautiful. And you put those two together. And
(28:19):
what it creates is a a self-contained and self protective spirituality,
because we, we have this innate awareness that our intuitions,
if we are using them as a spiritual guide to
what is true, good and beautiful, they are. They're fragile.
And so therefore our our entire sense of self, our
our understanding of what is ultimately true of the world.
(28:42):
Those are those are susceptible to to harm. And so
we we end up, um, instead of, you know, entrusting
ourselves to a church, we kind of keep, uh, the
church at arm's length at best. And, and we filter
everything through this kind of individualistic lens. Um, I love this.
I'll read it. I want to read a quote from, um,
(29:02):
Tara Isabella Burton. Her book, Strange Rites. I, I rely
heavily on this in this chapter. And she says that, um,
today's she calls them remixed. Um, but it's, it's basically the, the,
this category that we would we often refer to as
the spiritual but not religious. Uh, the so today's spiritual
but not religious reject authority, institution, creed and moral universalism.
(29:24):
They value intuition, personal feeling and experiences. They demand to
rewrite their own scripts about how the universe and human
beings operate, and don't want to receive doctrine, to assent
automatically to a creed. They want to choose the spiritual
path that feels more authentic and more meaningful to them.
They prioritize, and this is key intuitional spirituality over institutional religion.
(29:48):
And what that does is it makes I mean, let's
just to put it very succinctly, what this does is
it makes every if a Christian is operating off of
this assumption, the sacred self. It puts the responsibilities and
the purpose that God has put on and created the
church for on every single individual Christian. And that is
(30:11):
a huge burden to carry. And there's a sense that
if we're operating off of this assumption, we're aware of that,
the bigness of that. And and it is valuable. It's
it's it's an incredible, uh, gift that's given to us.
But no one person can steward it on their own.
And we're just too we're finite creatures. We are flawed
(30:32):
and broken and sinful. And so what we do is
we we use this kind of therapeutic language to systematize
and organize our internal reality in a way that helps
us to communicate those things to the outside world. And
you put all this together and and it makes so
much of what Jesus calls us to, like I was
saying earlier, to pick up our cross and follow him,
(30:54):
that becomes an existential threat, not a promise of resurrection.
S1 (31:00):
Yeah. In your studies, did you find anything about, uh,
or or come to any conclusion on the seeker model
that was so popular for so long in in Christendom?
S4 (31:14):
Yes. In fact, I talk a lot about that in
the The Spiritual Pragmatism chapter because, um, that a good
way to summarize that is it is an incredibly beautiful, good,
well intended end. You know, reaching non-Christians. We that is
absolutely part of the Great Commission in every way. And
(31:34):
yet it the way that we married. Discipleship to marketplace
logic has really distorted the results of of pursuing that end.
And what it's done is it's actually enabled a lot
of the individualism in our culture. And so when when
people come to faith, we come to faith in Jesus,
but we still grip, uh, have a, have a death
(31:56):
grip on on the individualism and the consumerism that we
brought into it. And so that starts to shape and
form our perspectives of church. And so we kind of
start we start experiencing and expecting discipleship to be, uh,
a means of self-actualizing, but with a Christian theme papered
over it. Um, and that what that does is it
(32:18):
makes us, you know, we know and love Jesus, but
we could really kind of take or leave his bride
and that that has some problems. Yeah.
S1 (32:29):
Uh, (877)Â 548-3675 is our number (877)Â 548-3675. Let's go to the phones. Krista.
You're in Tampa Bay, Florida. Thanks for your call. Your
question or comment for our guest today.
S5 (32:42):
Hi. Thank you so much. I appreciate you and God bless. Um,
I just want to say, um, you know, one of
the reasons that or one of the reasons that I
have trouble connecting in a church is, well, first of all,
I'm an alcoholic. And, um, you know, I'm recovering, but
it doesn't feel like the church actually deals with these
real issues that people are going through, whether it be
(33:04):
an addiction or adultery or kleptomania or whatever it may be, anxiety, depression,
you know, whatever is going on, everybody's got something going on. Um,
and it feels like, you know, for me, anyway, when
I go to church, it feels like everybody puts on
this mask of, you know, I'm in church now, I'm
a perfect person, and it just feels like the church
(33:25):
doesn't really dig into these issues and open with open
arms and say, hey, we're here for you. Um, you know,
and Christ is here for you, too. And thank, you know,
thank Thankful, thankful. So thankful for Christ. Because, you know,
I'm I'm forgiven for my sins. But it feels like
when you go to a church, there's that kind of
judgment of, well, when you're here, you have to be perfect, right?
(33:47):
And we're just going to talk about how wonderful you know,
Christ is, which is true, but it just doesn't seem
like there's that down and dirty nitty gritty. What's really
going on and how can we help you as the
body of Christ?
S1 (34:02):
Brad. Mhm.
S4 (34:04):
Wow. I mean, first of all, I'm just so sorry
that that's been your experience that that absolutely should not
be the case. Um, and if anything kind of what
you're describing, if you go upstream of the, the church
culture that you're describing, I think that's actually a really
good example of where marketplace logic has subtly deformed and distorted, uh,
(34:27):
the culture of the within the church. Right. If I mean,
let me put it this way. What how do you
how do you define and measure faithfulness. Like what is
faithfulness in a church? How is a church faithful? Marketplace
logic would define faithfulness as success. You know, we're experiencing
significant growth. We have to add another service, and we're
(34:49):
just growing beyond, you know, the walls of this church.
And and while those are good things, if, if, if
that is implicitly or explicitly the, the, the goal or
how we define faithfulness, then it's going to be then
competence and not character is going to be the value
competence is going to say is going to downstream say that,
(35:11):
you know, brokenness and vulnerability and and dealing with these
really hard things like you're talking about. Um, those those
are hindrances to the mission, not the very thing that
we are called to be salt and light in the
midst of. But if character is the definition of faithfulness, well,
then those things are are going to be addressed, because
(35:34):
faithfulness demands that we we follow Jesus into into all
of these really hard areas. And you're going to structure
the church around that. So you're going to have less
of a, you know, a a kind of corporate board
way approach to the church, uh, governance and leadership. And
it's going to be more of a shepherding model where
the elders are qualified based on their ability to shepherd,
(35:58):
not to make financial decisions. Right. And financial decisions are good.
But what is the priority? What is the primary purpose like?
It's great if elders have those gifts, but do we
have more sheep than shepherds are able to to care for?
That's that that if that is the case in a church,
(36:18):
then the the culture that you're describing is going to
be the unavoidable fruit of how faithfulness is defined by
marketplace logic.
S1 (36:27):
Yeah. Uh, it's incredible to to hear how this comes about,
and I can see how looking at numbers and not
people can certainly make people like Krista feel this. Uh,
what would you recommend for Krista? Who would? Sounds like
she has a heart to be in church. It's just
that she can't seem to find a place to connect.
S4 (36:49):
Yeah, I, you know, depending on where you are in
the country, the the answer, the specifics of that answer
are going to be a little bit different, right? I,
I think one of the most beautiful and powerful things
in a, in a world that values the kind of
mountaintop experience of like, wow, that was thrilling. You know,
this worship service was just makes me feel, you know,
(37:13):
so different from how I ordinarily feel. But I think
that the, the, the goal should be to, to find
a very, very ordinary, not sexy church that is just
quietly and patiently and humbly faithful and trust that over
the long term that you know you might not experience.
(37:34):
You know that you might not have that mountaintop experience
the first time or the first 20 times that you
attend that church. But over time, over by belonging to
a body, you're going to find and see in hindsight
that there is a deeper nourishment, that you might not
be as thrilled, but you will be thriving and and
(37:57):
your ordinary life is going to be suffused with a
deeper meaning that, yeah, isn't maybe as as sexy, but
it's actually a heck of a lot more sustainable and satisfying.
S1 (38:08):
Yeah. And Krista, there's also many churches who have programs
for people who are dealing with addictions that might be
a place to begin to meet people who are going
through similar things and then begin to branch out from there.
We wish you all the best in finding a great church.
We'll be praying that way. Go online, search for some
churches and find one to visit. Check it out. As
(38:29):
you can. And continue that effort till God leads you
to one. Pray that he'll lead you to one, and
I believe he will do that. (877)Â 548-3675. Our number (877)Â 548-3675.
The reason for church. Our guest, Brad Edwards back with
more on equipped with Chris Brooks coming up in just
a moment.
S3 (38:56):
We live in a culture whose needs and obstacles to
faith are constantly shifting. Sean McDowell's book apologetics for an
Ever Changing Culture, addresses many current issues and will help
you share and defend the gospel with relevant answers. It's
our thank you gift for supporting equipped this month. We'll
send you a copy with your gift of any amount
(39:18):
to equipped. Just call (888)Â 644-4144 or visit equipped radio.org. That's A888,
a644 a4144 or online at. Org.
S1 (39:38):
Welcome back to equipped with Chris Brooks. I'm Colin Lambert
sitting in for Chris today. And just a reminder, tomorrow
on the program I'll be with you again. Doctor George
Barna of the famous research group Barna Research will be
joining us. For over 40 years he's been tracking religious
and national trends, and now he's sharing his latest research
on equipped. Will be learning tomorrow about trends that are
(40:01):
shaping America and learning how to navigate them with biblical
wisdom and confidence in our God. In the midst of
some crazy, crazy stuff going on, uh, we're talking with
Brad Edwards. The reason for church is the name of
a book he has coming out April 22nd. Why the
Body of Christ Still Matters in an age of anxiety, division,
and radical individualism. Our phone lines open at 5483675. Brad,
(40:28):
in the first part of your book, you talked about
the marketplace logic, the consumerism, the intuitional spirituality and the
therapy speak. We didn't get to things like social media,
which is a huge issue. Politics plays a big part.
Culture wars, things like that. I want to shift for
a moment kind of to the second part of your book,
which really is an honest yet hopeful vision for the
(40:52):
church as a necessary institution in the middle of where
we are today, with all these defeater type elements that
we're dealing with. Is the church still valid for today?
And and why should people consider the church maybe today
if they have left? Brad.
S4 (41:17):
Yes, yes. Sorry I that you cut out there at
the very end. So can you can you repeat that
last part?
S1 (41:22):
Yeah. Let me just. Yeah. I was just saying, uh, to,
to kind of cast a vision of, of a bit
of hopefulness here as we, uh, begin to wind down
the hour, uh, with all of these things that are
defeating the church. Uh, could you tell us maybe a
few items that, uh, help us understand why is the
church so important today? How can it combat some of
(41:43):
these defeater type things? And and, uh, is there hope
to get people back to church?
S4 (41:49):
Yeah, I there are so many different dimensions of this,
but I think one of those that are that is,
if we can get this, then it really will make
a difference and kind of organize the others around it.
And that is this reality that the church is God's
gift to us as a a spiritual greenhouse for exiles.
I mean, I one of the things I talk to
people about the most is just how exhausted they are. And,
(42:13):
you know, yes, the the reality of remote work being
an option now for a whole lot of people and
just the different, you know, the suburban context that I'm in,
you know, you're always driving to one place or another,
you feel very, um, disintegrated. And what I mean by
that is not, you know, dissolved, uh, in that sense.
But like, we are unintegrated by all of these technologies
(42:35):
and the pressures of living in the modern world. And
what the church is, is a spiritual greenhouse. It's a
refuge where the cultivation of, of human flourishing can happen.
And in that greenhouse, yes, there are times when we
are being pruned, but we're also being nourished and fed and,
and growth is cultivated because these things are, you know,
(42:57):
reintegrated into life. And so, um, I think part of
the problem with individualism is that, you know, if individualism
can be boiled down to one thing, it'd be this
idea that we we achieve, we must achieve our dignity,
value and worth our identity. But within the church's walls,
you you don't have to achieve anything. You can actually
rest because you can receive the identity, the dignity, value
(43:21):
and worth. Uh, of of what it means to be
in Christ. We don't just have a name of our
own that we have to to make for ourselves. We
actually have the name above all names. Through our connection
to the body of Christ. And in that, just like
you know, you know, if we live, as you know,
amputated limbs from the body, that reconnection is what brings
(43:45):
the the flow of Christ's blood and oxygen and everything
that is life giving about being in Christ. We actually
can apprehend for ourselves and experience and and take with
us into the world throughout the rest of our week.
And so I just I cannot that that kind of
image and metaphor has been so helpful for, for people.
(44:07):
When I talked about.
S1 (44:09):
Two part question here. Uh, as we wind down, when
you look at what's happening in the church and you
look at individuals, how they interact in society today, maybe
a word for the church. What can the church be
doing to live this out well? And secondly, what can
we as Christ followers do to live this out around
(44:31):
others that would maybe make church more attractive to the
people we're interacting with?
S4 (44:38):
Yeah, I think honestly, one of the one of the
downstream implications of the seeker sensitive movement is that we
think the church and pastors like myself, we believe that
the that how we reach people and how we make
people feel welcome is by trying to make the church
feel as familiar to the rest of everybody else's lives
(44:58):
as possible. I in other words, we think that if
the church feels strange or foreign or alien, that that
that is actually a problem. And, and I think part
of the, the, the re rethinking we have to do
is that actually the church being strange is incredibly good
and and we actually should be. Yes. Still inviting and
(45:18):
making people feel welcome and being hospitable in every sense
of the word, but that that strangeness is actually the
strength of the church. And so that means things like,
you know, for one example, in my own church, we've made,
you know, this is a very weird kind of way
to answer your question, but we've made a really big
deal out of church membership for that reason. Right? We
(45:41):
we encourage people that, hey, if you want to feel
like you belong here, that often the ceiling and the
the wall that prevents people from feeling like they belong
in a church is is trying to belong without belonging
to someone. Right. And that, yes, that might preserve our
autonomy and our freedom, but we're missing out on something beautiful.
(46:05):
When you are part of a body that views things
like obligation as not a dirty word, but actually that
obligation is reciprocal. It's a two way street. And when
that is the case, that strangeness actually starts to rewire.
You and the rest of the world feels strange by comparison.
And so.
S1 (46:23):
Yeah, I've got 20s a quick word, maybe, to somebody
who wants to reach a friend and get him back
to church.
S4 (46:30):
I would say, yeah, this is weird. I would say
if you're talking to someone who you're trying to invite
to church, be like, hey, this is really weird and
strange and it's uncomfortable, and it's also worth it. And
taste and see that the Lord is good and his
bride is beautiful.
S1 (46:47):
Amen. Amen. Brad Edwards the book is the reason for church.
We'll have everything about it on our website, Radio.com. It
releases April 22nd. I think it would be a great
read for you. The reason for church, why the body
of Christ still matters in an age of anxiety and
division and radical individualism. Equipped with Chris Brooks is a
(47:08):
production of Moody Radio, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
And welcome to equipped. I'm Colin Lambert sitting in for
Chris Brooks today. Thank you so much for being with us.
You know, the evangelical church seems to be hemorrhaging. Over
40 million Americans have de-churched in the last 25 years.
And we have generations that have been raised to believe
the most spiritual thing they can do to follow God
(00:41):
is to follow their heart right out of the church doors.
That's our topic. Today is the reason for church, and
we're going to get to that in just a moment.
But as you know, the host of this program, Chris Brooks,
has taken some time away from the program to care
for his family while his daughter is in treatment for cancer.
But today, Chris wanted to stop by and to bring
(01:03):
us an update. Chris. So good to hear your voice today,
my friend.
S2 (01:08):
Colin. Can I tell you how much I love that
opening music? What a blessing it is man, I miss you.
I miss all of our friends. The equip family. It
is so good to be with you and special, special
appreciation for the team and the amazing folks who have
(01:28):
filled in while I've been away. Thank you so very much,
Brother Chris.
S1 (01:35):
Uh, just take a moment, if you would. I know
people have been praying, uh, consistently for you and your family.
Would you just give us an update?
S2 (01:43):
Yeah. We're so appreciative of that. I just want to
say how grateful we are for the many expressions of
love and prayer and encouragement for us. It's just been
wind beneath our wings, and it's been a huge blessing
to to our hearts. Just a quick update. Uh, as
many of you guys know, back in December, our daughter Zoe,
(02:05):
our oldest daughter, 18, was diagnosed officially with cancer, kind
of this rare form of blood cancer, and we've been
walking this journey ever since. And the good news is,
is that they have been able to, uh, come up
(02:25):
with a wonderful treatment plan. She has a great medical team. Colin,
you know how important doctors are. It's such an important ministry. And,
you know, praise God that sometimes he heals us miraculously
without the intervention of doctors and hospitals and medicines. But sometimes,
in his wisdom, he chooses to use those means of grace.
(02:49):
And we're certainly grateful for the medical team and hospitals
that we've been able to work with. Um, we are
kind of set up on this rhythm of she has this, uh,
cadre of, uh, things she has to do to be well,
but we're set up on this rhythm of kind of
monthly check ins. And the good news is, is that, uh,
(03:10):
our last monthly check in, which took place a couple
of weeks ago, showed really good progress, really good lab results,
really good results. Um, she's a fighter, she's resilient, she's
doing well. And we got one more appointment we got
to go to in about a week from now. And
if that goes well and we're hopeful that it will,
(03:32):
she'll get the green light to be able to go
back to campus, resume her studies in college. And, uh,
we are really, really hopeful for that.
S1 (03:42):
Wow. That's incredible. And so good to hear the progress.
I know from my recent experience in the last year,
every little update can, uh, just be a bright light
in the midst of some, uh, challenging times. So what
a blessing to hear that. Thank you for that update, Chris. Uh,
you know, you sit here each day in your normal
(04:05):
program and you talk about the things of life and
how to deal with those things of life. What kind
of lessons are you learning in the midst of what
God is taking your family through right now?
S2 (04:17):
Yeah. You know, growing up as a kid in church,
you sing that great hymn that reminds us that we're leaning,
leaning on the arms of God, leaning on his everlasting arms.
And I think this is where my wife and I,
our family, has been. We have never been more weak
(04:38):
than what we are right now. And I mean that
in a most vulnerable sense of the word. It's been
a season where it's not our own strength that carries us,
and we are very much mindful that it's his grace
that carries us. And so we have thrown ourselves completely, uh,
in dependency upon the mercy of the Lord. But I
(05:00):
am glad to be able to say that he is faithful,
that he is everything he says he is, and he
will do everything that he says he will do. That
does not mean that life is not without its challenges
and valleys. Colin, you just referenced yours. Every single person
that's listening to me, uh, is, uh, is very familiar
(05:21):
with their own challenges. What is true for 100% of
us is that we will all walk through valleys. But
one of the things that I've been doing with my
kids in this season is walking through the Psalms, and
this morning with my 14 year old son, the psalm
that we got a chance to read. And I'm just
going to read a couple verses. Colin, if that's okay. Sure. Uh,
(05:43):
with Psalm 46. Psalm 46 opens this way. God is
our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.
Therefore we will not fear. Though the earth give way,
though the mountains be moved into the heart of the sea,
though its waters roar and foam, though the mountains tremble
(06:05):
at its swelling. You know what a reminder to us
and what I said to my son, what I reminded
myself of this morning, what I will remind everyone who's
listening to us, is that the Bible never gives us
this Pollyanna theology that if you have enough faith, troubles
won't come. It gives us the opposite, that because of
sin and fallenness, we live in a fallen world. But
(06:29):
God is with us and he is our refuge. He
is faithful. So that's the big thing that we've learned.
The other thing that we've learned, Colin, and I'm so
glad you're going to be talking about this today is
the beauty of the local church. Um, it is such
a special gift to be surrounded by brothers and sisters
(06:54):
in Christ. I'm so glad that I have more than
just an online relationship with with our church. I'm so
glad that I have more than just my favorite TV
preacher or radio personality. As important as those folks may
be in my spiritual development, and I praise God for radio,
(07:14):
I praise God for those who minister through those means. Um,
all of us, all of us need a church family.
We need real relationships. We need real community. We need, uh,
real spiritual family. And I'm grateful to have those folks
in my life that are praying for us, checking on us,
(07:36):
loving us, sometimes reminding us, uh, to lift our heads up,
to be reminded of who we are in Christ and
what he's promised us. And so I'm grateful for the
local church, grateful for the promises of God's Word. And
I'm happy to report in this season that we're encouraged,
and I hope that that encourages some folks as well.
S1 (07:56):
Yeah. As a senior pastor, you know, the power of
the local church, and I pray that your church is
coming around to you in a mighty way as well.
S2 (08:05):
Yeah. And they are. And, you know, it's so funny
because you would think, well, of course they are. You're
a pastor, but so many pastors can tell you of
seasons where they went through and they didn't feel cared for.
They didn't feel loved. And I want to say as well, um,
the Moody family has been absolutely incredible. I love, love,
(08:28):
love moody. Um, we're a place that is known for
the truth, um, bringing the word to life. And that
is certainly, um, our commitment. Our commitment is to the scriptures. Um,
but the people behind the scenes, uh, yourself, Deb Solomon. Chris,
(08:49):
who's taking care of everything technical right now? Uh, Wes Ward. Uh,
so many of the folks, Judy, I could go on
and on who have, um, prayed for us, cared for us,
cry with us. Um, I'm grateful to be a part
of this family, Colin. Alan, and I'm more optimistic about
the future of what God has called us to than
(09:10):
I've ever been. And and the need. The need is
so great for the gospel. The need is so great.
Behind everything you just shared when you opened up. And
I love your opening about the hemorrhaging of the church
and the people who are deconstructing and walking out the
church doors. You know what's in the wake of all
of that? That may in a moment be cool or
(09:34):
chic or, you know, kind of the in thing to
do is to kind of deconstruct or leave your church
or whatever the case may be, but you're going to
run into something that is greater than your own wisdom
that will outstrip your bank account, that is beyond your
ability to control. And when you're confronted with those realities
(09:55):
like we are right now, when you're humbled by the
realities of life, that is when the consequences of those
decisions are felt and in the wake of it is
so much brokenness. And what I think the church has
to do is continue to stand ready to care for,
to minister to the needs of those who will look
(10:17):
up and say, what a foolish thing I've done to
walk away from the only one who's loved me enough
to die for me, and to walk away from the church.
That maybe in her imperfections left some scars. But. But
has loved me well. And I pray that there will
be a lot of people, and I think there will
(10:39):
be a lot of people who will come back to
the church, and I hope we'll be ready to receive them.
S1 (10:44):
Amen. Amen. Chris, great to hear your voice. Great to
talk to you. Appreciate you so much, my friend. We
will continue to ask people to continue to pray for
you and Zoe and the whole family. Uh, bless you brother.
Love you much.
S2 (10:57):
Yeah. Love you guys. Have a great show today.
S1 (11:01):
All right, my friends, it's great to hear from Chris.
What a word of encouragement from him today. If you're
going through some tough stuff, I think that's something worth
listening to today. Coming up in just a moment, we're
going to talk about the reason for church, why the
body of Christ still matters in an age of anxiety, division,
and radical individualism. Our guest is Brad Edwards. We're going
(11:23):
to come back in just a moment with him, with
your phone calls as well. It's going to be a
good hour. Stick with us here on equipped with Chris Brooks.
We'll be back with more coming up in just a
couple of minutes.
S2 (11:47):
Christianity speaks to every aspect of life, but sometimes we
struggle to connect God's unchanging truth to our changing world.
S3 (11:54):
Apologetics for an Ever Changing Culture by Sean McDowell equips
you with the practical tools for meaningful conversation about faith.
With chapters from 26 leading Christian thinkers, including our own
Chris Brooks. It's our impact gift this month to you.
When you support the Ministry of Equipped, call (888)Â 644-4144 or
(12:18):
visit equipped radio.org.
S1 (12:25):
Welcome back to equipped with Chris Brooks I'm Colin Lambert
sitting in for Chris today. So great to get an
update from Chris just moments ago. And we'll ask you
to continue to be praying for Chris and his family. Well,
I mentioned it earlier. The evangelical church is hemorrhaging. Over
40 million Americans have de-churched in the last 25 years,
and new generations have been raised to believe that the
(12:48):
most spiritual thing they can do is follow their heart
right out the doors of the church. Yet it seems
this shift is happening right as society is hitting record
levels of loneliness, stress, and anxiety. So what are the answers? Well,
we hope to find some of those today with our guest,
Brad Edwards. He is the church planter of the Table
Church in Lafayette, Colorado, where he lives with his wife, Hannah,
(13:11):
and their two sons. He's author of a brand new
book which is yet to come out. It comes out
later this month, April 22nd. You'll want to get this
on your list because it is a powerful book. It's
called The Reason for Church Why the Body of Christ
Still Matters in an age of anxiety, division, and radical individualism. Brad,
great to have you with us today on equipped.
S4 (13:32):
Hey, thanks for having me and I've been really looking
forward to this conversation. So this is great.
S1 (13:37):
Yeah. Me too. And I want to start with your
story a little bit before we get into some of
the details of the book, because I think your story
really plays into where a lot of people at some
point cross their church relationship. Tell us a little bit
about growing up and your relationship with the church.
S4 (13:55):
Yeah. Well, growing up I had absolutely no relationship with
the church whatsoever. I grew up non-Christian, and it wasn't
until the end of my junior year of college that
I became a Christian. And in a lot of ways,
it was kind of what you're alluding to is in
a lot of ways, despite the church. I vividly remember
(14:15):
in college going to a campus ministry, worship service, you know,
two times I was in a really low place and
really longing for some kind of truth, goodness and beauty
that transcended this, this kind of deep spiritual depression that
I was in. And I remember, um, praying to God
and just asking him and telling, actually not asking. That
would have been probably better, honestly. But I very rudely
(14:39):
demanded of God that if you don't have somebody, anybody
talk to me, if I when I go back to
this campus ministry one more time, I'm done. I'm not
going to try anymore. And it was that last time that, uh,
somebody who happened to live next door to me in
my dorm room who, uh, was very shocked that I
was there because I was not the kind of person
who would, um, who would who would ever set foot
(15:02):
in a church or a worship service of any kind,
because I was the kind of guy that who, um,
you know, when, when an open air preacher would come
to campus or, um, you know, be proclaiming the gospel,
but more often than not, yelling repent! Um, and trying
to provoke conversation. I was the guy who would go
up to that guy, skip class and argue with him. Uh,
because I disbelieved everything that he was saying. And so
(15:24):
it was a very unlikely, um, coming to Christ for
me in a whole lot of ways. But that's, like
you said, a huge reason why I'm so passionate about
seeing the church be this embodiment of, of, of the
gospel in ways that can help offer this truth, goodness
and beauty that we're all longing for.
S1 (15:42):
I mentioned just a moment ago about how many people
have left the church for one reason or another, over
the last 25 years. Uh, is that reason alone why
you wrote the book, or is there more to it
than just the fact that there's this hemorrhaging going on.
S4 (15:58):
Well, yeah. When I was called into ministry, I had
a very real sense that it was at the same
time that, you know, Tim Keller and acts 29 this
we were kind of on the front edge of this, uh,
church planting golden age. And so I very quickly felt
called to church planting in one form or another and
have been planting the table out here in Boulder County, Colorado,
(16:20):
for the last ten years. Now, basically, we've been we've
been worshiping as a church for the last eight and
a half. And if you know anything about, um, Boulder
or just the the west western United States, this is
a hyper individualistic place. And so it's one of the,
the shocks, um, you know, combination of pleasant and difficult
(16:42):
surprises was realizing just how much people were open to
the idea of God even hearing about Jesus in the gospel,
but utterly closed to the idea of church or participating
in church in any way, because there's just an a
baked in cultural assumption that institutions are bad. And therefore
the best way to to know God is actually to
(17:05):
to stay away from institutions like the church of the church,
of which the church is one. And and that we
don't need it. In fact, it's actually harmful if we're
part of a church because it constrains our individuality in
some way.
S1 (17:16):
Um, as a church planter, that must have been quite
a shock to learn that that's what you were going into.
That people were interested in spiritual things and yet didn't
want to darken the door of your church. Mhm.
S4 (17:30):
Yeah. No, that that was surprising but not, not shocking.
I think the thing that was much harder actually, was
realizing just how much Christians had actually been shaped and
formed to view the church in a similar way. I
think there's a there's a posture and a belief that
the church is like, you know, it's not ideal. You know,
(17:52):
it's but maybe it's at worst a necessary evil. But
if at best kind of a means to my end
and to my spiritual growth, and that has all kinds
of of implications about what it looks like to follow
Jesus and to do discipleship in a local church, that
if you don't know and aren't aware of those cultural
assumptions and values and how much you're operating off of
(18:13):
those as on the basis of faith, honestly, that it
makes those things so much harder. And it's going to
make your church experience, actually, that much more fraught.
S1 (18:25):
In the first part of your book, you talk about
how individualism has affected the church and people's engagement with
the church. Talk for a moment about that. What is
how does that play out? What does individualism look like
as people are considering or, uh, choosing not to go
to a local church?
S4 (18:45):
Yeah, I think this the individualism is just, you know,
we're fish in water, we're swimming around in it. And
to ask a fish, hey, what's. What's it like to
be wet? A fish is going to have a hard
time knowing how to describe that, because that's the waters.
The only waters they've ever been swimming in. And so
this is something that very much shapes and influences the
(19:06):
lens that both Christians and non-Christians bring to the table
for that. Um, pun intended. Since my church's name. The table. Um,
and what it does, is it, you know, for Christians especially,
it kind of makes us view the church like a
spiritual nonprofit, right? We, you know, we we we approach
the church as a means to, uh, grow spiritually, to
(19:31):
be shaped and formed, to grow in our own walk
with Christ. And those are all true and all very
good things. But that's actually not the reason why a
church exists. The church exists to help God's people love
God and their neighbor, and the the spiritual formation we
experience is part of that is the fruit of it.
But when you put the fruit as the purpose of it.
(19:53):
It has all these distortions downstream. Um, here's a good example.
I mean, as a church planter, um, if you if
anybody who's been in a church planter knows, um, a
church planter, these church planters will tell you that one
of the hardest thresholds to get past is, you know,
this kind of chicken or egg tension of youth ministry, right?
You're trying to build a church from scratch. There's nothing established.
(20:16):
And yet, as, um, as your kids start aging and
getting into that, that stage of life where you need
something that a ministry that helps them walk with Jesus
and to take the faith and make it their own. Um,
how do you do that without a critical mass of
people who are, who can, are willing to kind of
stay and tough it out until it gets established? Well,
I've we've had, you know, more than several families leave
(20:40):
our church to go to another church that has an
established youth ministry. And often I hear two things, you know,
on as as I have that conversation with them. One,
it's not personal, which I get and understand that like
as a pastor, it's always going to be personal for me.
And it's that's always hard and painful and I get that.
But that betrays something about how we view church, right?
(21:04):
You can leave for another youth ministry and it not
be for the reason of like, hey, my kids really
love the pizza parties they throw, you know, like and
the silly games. Like, that doesn't have to be your motivation.
Your motivation can still be like, I want my kids
to know Jesus. And I'm so sympathetic to that. Yeah.
And yet, what does it teach our kids about the
purpose of God's of Christ's body and bride? What does
(21:28):
it what does it tell them? The purpose of church is?
And I think a lot of the deconstruction that you
were talking about in the intro is a result of,
of like, we think the church has failed us because
it's not helping us, um, fulfill our, our God given potential.
And that makes us disillusioned and disenchanted. And we end
(21:48):
up often leaving the church in that disillusionment. But we're
leaving the very means by which God meets us, where
we are. The locus of his authority and his presence
and and how we are shaped to view the world
based on how God defines what is true, good and beautiful,
and not how we define it.
S1 (22:08):
As you were studying this topic and putting this book together,
were there specific things that you found that either were
tied to individualism or just to the fact that people
didn't seem to want to attend church or have left church,
or they're 2 or 3 things that that we could
grab a hold of that that people have said to
(22:29):
you or you have found out along the way, make this, uh,
unfortunate thing happen.
S4 (22:36):
I mean, this is this is part of the reason
why this is so such a difficult thing for fish
to describe the experience of being wet. Right? So in
the first half of the book, I talk about these five.
I call them church defeaters of individualism. And that's kind
of a riff off of Tim Keller's um, Defeater beliefs
from his book The Reason for God. And that's why
this book is called The Reason for church. And these
(22:58):
these church defeaters are cultural assumptions that we don't even
realize we believe or see the world through. And so therefore,
we often aren't able to even articulate it. And so
you have to actually go beneath the surface of the
reasons why people are giving for leaving the church. Um,
what I was just describing about youth ministry is, is
related to the first church defeater, which is spiritual pragmatism.
(23:20):
And so if we define, uh, what is true, good
and beautiful by what works for us, which is is
something that is like, we have this we have that
posture and approach to so many things in life. And
if we have that posture toward church, then it's going
to make it like staying in a church really difficult
because Jesus is call to pick up our cross and
(23:41):
follow him. You know, there's not a whole lot of
potential fulfilling in that process. Resurrection is only on the
other side of dying to ourselves. And and so there's
a there's a disconnect there that makes the what what
God brings us through. And in our involvement in a
church that much harder to to kind of to accept
(24:03):
or to understand or see how it's actually contributing to
our good. And so these, these five church defeaters that
I talk about the problem with them. Uh, there's, there's
many problems with them, but, um, they make church implausible,
if not impossible, but they aren't satisfying or sustainable by
their own standards and merits. They actually don't bring the,
(24:23):
the meaning and the, the belonging that we that we
are made for in Christ. And so that's why honestly,
if you if you trace these and follow them to
their conclusion, they go right to all of these kind
of social crises that that people are talking about right now,
whether you talk about the meaning crisis or this loneliness
epidemic or the culture wars, all of that is Downstream
(24:45):
of these fundamental assumptions that when they lead us out
of the church because they're incompatible with it, that that's
that's just the those are symptoms of a deeper spiritual problem.
S1 (24:57):
Yeah. Uh, would you name another Defeater? And then we're
going to take a break. We'll come back and elaborate
on it, but maybe another defeater that we can think about.
S4 (25:05):
Absolutely. I think, um, I think one that seems to
resonate a whole lot with people is this idea of
the sacred self.
S1 (25:13):
Mhm. Sacred self. That's that's big today for sure. We're
talking with Brad Edwards. The reason for church why the
body of Christ still matters in an age of anxiety
division and radical individualism. Colin Lambert sitting in for Chris
Brooks on Equip today and our phone lines are open. 87754836758775483675.
(25:37):
We're going to come back with your calls as well.
Have you left church for maybe some of the reasons
we're talking about. Have you had some kind of issue
where you left, do you do you feel like maybe
you don't need church? That just, uh, studying the Bible
on your own is enough? Or maybe you've returned to
church and have a story to tell about why it's
become so important to you again. (877)Â 548-3675. We'll be back
(26:02):
with more equipped with Chris Brooks coming up in just
a moment. Stay with us. Equipped is here to help
(26:22):
you live, share and defend your faith in our rapidly
changing culture. And that's why Chris Brooks has chosen Sean
McDowell's new book, apologetics for an ever Changing Culture as
our Impact gift. When you support the work of equipped
this month, there's contributions for 23 leading voices in Christian apologetics.
Six interview expert interviews as well, and the book is
(26:46):
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just ask for the apologetics book. When you give your
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(27:10):
or go online at Equip radio Dot Colin Lambert sitting
in for Chris today. We're talking about the reason for
church with Brad Edwards. Brad is the church planter of
the Table Church in Boulder, Colorado. He's written a book
which is coming out April 22nd. We'll have all the
information on our website at equipped Radio.com. Information about him
(27:32):
and about this book. I encourage you to add it
to your reading list. It is fascinating. It's called The
Reason for Church Why the Body of Christ Still matters
in an age of anxiety, Division and radical individualism. And Brad,
just before the break, we were talking about some of
these defeaters, these things that either push people out of
the church or keep people from being engaged. Tell us
(27:52):
again what that next defeater was and tell us a
little about it.
S4 (27:58):
Yeah. So the next Defeater is the sacred self, and
it's made up of two parts. There's the first part
is in intuitionism, and then the second part is the
way that we use therapeutic language to describe this internal
reality that intuitionism uses to guide itself to what is true,
good and beautiful. And you put those two together. And
(28:19):
what it creates is a a self-contained and self protective spirituality,
because we, we have this innate awareness that our intuitions,
if we are using them as a spiritual guide to
what is true, good and beautiful, they are. They're fragile.
And so therefore our our entire sense of self, our
our understanding of what is ultimately true of the world.
(28:42):
Those are those are susceptible to to harm. And so
we we end up, um, instead of, you know, entrusting
ourselves to a church, we kind of keep, uh, the
church at arm's length at best. And, and we filter
everything through this kind of individualistic lens. Um, I love this.
I'll read it. I want to read a quote from, um,
(29:02):
Tara Isabella Burton. Her book, Strange Rites. I, I rely
heavily on this in this chapter. And she says that, um,
today's she calls them remixed. Um, but it's, it's basically the, the,
this category that we would we often refer to as
the spiritual but not religious. Uh, the so today's spiritual
but not religious reject authority, institution, creed and moral universalism.
(29:24):
They value intuition, personal feeling and experiences. They demand to
rewrite their own scripts about how the universe and human
beings operate, and don't want to receive doctrine, to assent
automatically to a creed. They want to choose the spiritual
path that feels more authentic and more meaningful to them.
They prioritize, and this is key intuitional spirituality over institutional religion.
(29:48):
And what that does is it makes I mean, let's
just to put it very succinctly, what this does is
it makes every if a Christian is operating off of
this assumption, the sacred self. It puts the responsibilities and
the purpose that God has put on and created the
church for on every single individual Christian. And that is
(30:11):
a huge burden to carry. And there's a sense that
if we're operating off of this assumption, we're aware of that,
the bigness of that. And and it is valuable. It's
it's it's an incredible, uh, gift that's given to us.
But no one person can steward it on their own.
And we're just too we're finite creatures. We are flawed
(30:32):
and broken and sinful. And so what we do is
we we use this kind of therapeutic language to systematize
and organize our internal reality in a way that helps
us to communicate those things to the outside world. And
you put all this together and and it makes so
much of what Jesus calls us to, like I was
saying earlier, to pick up our cross and follow him,
(30:54):
that becomes an existential threat, not a promise of resurrection.
S1 (31:00):
Yeah. In your studies, did you find anything about, uh,
or or come to any conclusion on the seeker model
that was so popular for so long in in Christendom?
S4 (31:14):
Yes. In fact, I talk a lot about that in
the The Spiritual Pragmatism chapter because, um, that a good
way to summarize that is it is an incredibly beautiful, good,
well intended end. You know, reaching non-Christians. We that is
absolutely part of the Great Commission in every way. And
(31:34):
yet it the way that we married. Discipleship to marketplace
logic has really distorted the results of of pursuing that end.
And what it's done is it's actually enabled a lot
of the individualism in our culture. And so when when
people come to faith, we come to faith in Jesus,
but we still grip, uh, have a, have a death
(31:56):
grip on on the individualism and the consumerism that we
brought into it. And so that starts to shape and
form our perspectives of church. And so we kind of
start we start experiencing and expecting discipleship to be, uh,
a means of self-actualizing, but with a Christian theme papered
over it. Um, and that what that does is it
(32:18):
makes us, you know, we know and love Jesus, but
we could really kind of take or leave his bride
and that that has some problems. Yeah.
S1 (32:29):
Uh, (877)Â 548-3675 is our number (877)Â 548-3675. Let's go to the phones. Krista.
You're in Tampa Bay, Florida. Thanks for your call. Your
question or comment for our guest today.
S5 (32:42):
Hi. Thank you so much. I appreciate you and God bless. Um,
I just want to say, um, you know, one of
the reasons that or one of the reasons that I
have trouble connecting in a church is, well, first of all,
I'm an alcoholic. And, um, you know, I'm recovering, but
it doesn't feel like the church actually deals with these
real issues that people are going through, whether it be
(33:04):
an addiction or adultery or kleptomania or whatever it may be, anxiety, depression,
you know, whatever is going on, everybody's got something going on. Um,
and it feels like, you know, for me, anyway, when
I go to church, it feels like everybody puts on
this mask of, you know, I'm in church now, I'm
a perfect person, and it just feels like the church
(33:25):
doesn't really dig into these issues and open with open
arms and say, hey, we're here for you. Um, you know,
and Christ is here for you, too. And thank, you know,
thank Thankful, thankful. So thankful for Christ. Because, you know,
I'm I'm forgiven for my sins. But it feels like
when you go to a church, there's that kind of
judgment of, well, when you're here, you have to be perfect, right?
(33:47):
And we're just going to talk about how wonderful you know,
Christ is, which is true, but it just doesn't seem
like there's that down and dirty nitty gritty. What's really
going on and how can we help you as the
body of Christ?
S1 (34:02):
Brad. Mhm.
S4 (34:04):
Wow. I mean, first of all, I'm just so sorry
that that's been your experience that that absolutely should not
be the case. Um, and if anything kind of what
you're describing, if you go upstream of the, the church
culture that you're describing, I think that's actually a really
good example of where marketplace logic has subtly deformed and distorted, uh,
(34:27):
the culture of the within the church. Right. If I mean,
let me put it this way. What how do you
how do you define and measure faithfulness. Like what is
faithfulness in a church? How is a church faithful? Marketplace
logic would define faithfulness as success. You know, we're experiencing
significant growth. We have to add another service, and we're
(34:49):
just growing beyond, you know, the walls of this church.
And and while those are good things, if, if, if
that is implicitly or explicitly the, the, the goal or
how we define faithfulness, then it's going to be then
competence and not character is going to be the value
competence is going to say is going to downstream say that,
(35:11):
you know, brokenness and vulnerability and and dealing with these
really hard things like you're talking about. Um, those those
are hindrances to the mission, not the very thing that
we are called to be salt and light in the
midst of. But if character is the definition of faithfulness, well,
then those things are are going to be addressed, because
(35:34):
faithfulness demands that we we follow Jesus into into all
of these really hard areas. And you're going to structure
the church around that. So you're going to have less
of a, you know, a a kind of corporate board
way approach to the church, uh, governance and leadership. And
it's going to be more of a shepherding model where
the elders are qualified based on their ability to shepherd,
(35:58):
not to make financial decisions. Right. And financial decisions are good.
But what is the priority? What is the primary purpose like?
It's great if elders have those gifts, but do we
have more sheep than shepherds are able to to care for?
That's that that if that is the case in a church,
(36:18):
then the the culture that you're describing is going to
be the unavoidable fruit of how faithfulness is defined by
marketplace logic.
S1 (36:27):
Yeah. Uh, it's incredible to to hear how this comes about,
and I can see how looking at numbers and not
people can certainly make people like Krista feel this. Uh,
what would you recommend for Krista? Who would? Sounds like
she has a heart to be in church. It's just
that she can't seem to find a place to connect.
S4 (36:49):
Yeah, I, you know, depending on where you are in
the country, the the answer, the specifics of that answer
are going to be a little bit different, right? I,
I think one of the most beautiful and powerful things
in a, in a world that values the kind of
mountaintop experience of like, wow, that was thrilling. You know,
this worship service was just makes me feel, you know,
(37:13):
so different from how I ordinarily feel. But I think
that the, the, the goal should be to, to find
a very, very ordinary, not sexy church that is just
quietly and patiently and humbly faithful and trust that over
the long term that you know you might not experience.
(37:34):
You know that you might not have that mountaintop experience
the first time or the first 20 times that you
attend that church. But over time, over by belonging to
a body, you're going to find and see in hindsight
that there is a deeper nourishment, that you might not
be as thrilled, but you will be thriving and and
(37:57):
your ordinary life is going to be suffused with a
deeper meaning that, yeah, isn't maybe as as sexy, but
it's actually a heck of a lot more sustainable and satisfying.
S1 (38:08):
Yeah. And Krista, there's also many churches who have programs
for people who are dealing with addictions that might be
a place to begin to meet people who are going
through similar things and then begin to branch out from there.
We wish you all the best in finding a great church.
We'll be praying that way. Go online, search for some
churches and find one to visit. Check it out. As
(38:29):
you can. And continue that effort till God leads you
to one. Pray that he'll lead you to one, and
I believe he will do that. (877)Â 548-3675. Our number (877)Â 548-3675.
The reason for church. Our guest, Brad Edwards back with
more on equipped with Chris Brooks coming up in just
a moment.
S3 (38:56):
We live in a culture whose needs and obstacles to
faith are constantly shifting. Sean McDowell's book apologetics for an
Ever Changing Culture, addresses many current issues and will help
you share and defend the gospel with relevant answers. It's
our thank you gift for supporting equipped this month. We'll
send you a copy with your gift of any amount
(39:18):
to equipped. Just call (888)Â 644-4144 or visit equipped radio.org. That's A888,
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S1 (39:38):
Welcome back to equipped with Chris Brooks. I'm Colin Lambert
sitting in for Chris today. And just a reminder, tomorrow
on the program I'll be with you again. Doctor George
Barna of the famous research group Barna Research will be
joining us. For over 40 years he's been tracking religious
and national trends, and now he's sharing his latest research
on equipped. Will be learning tomorrow about trends that are
(40:01):
shaping America and learning how to navigate them with biblical
wisdom and confidence in our God. In the midst of
some crazy, crazy stuff going on, uh, we're talking with
Brad Edwards. The reason for church is the name of
a book he has coming out April 22nd. Why the
Body of Christ Still Matters in an age of anxiety, division,
and radical individualism. Our phone lines open at 5483675. Brad,
(40:28):
in the first part of your book, you talked about
the marketplace logic, the consumerism, the intuitional spirituality and the
therapy speak. We didn't get to things like social media,
which is a huge issue. Politics plays a big part.
Culture wars, things like that. I want to shift for
a moment kind of to the second part of your book,
which really is an honest yet hopeful vision for the
(40:52):
church as a necessary institution in the middle of where
we are today, with all these defeater type elements that
we're dealing with. Is the church still valid for today?
And and why should people consider the church maybe today
if they have left? Brad.
S4 (41:17):
Yes, yes. Sorry I that you cut out there at
the very end. So can you can you repeat that
last part?
S1 (41:22):
Yeah. Let me just. Yeah. I was just saying, uh, to,
to kind of cast a vision of, of a bit
of hopefulness here as we, uh, begin to wind down
the hour, uh, with all of these things that are
defeating the church. Uh, could you tell us maybe a
few items that, uh, help us understand why is the
church so important today? How can it combat some of
(41:43):
these defeater type things? And and, uh, is there hope
to get people back to church?
S4 (41:49):
Yeah, I there are so many different dimensions of this,
but I think one of those that are that is,
if we can get this, then it really will make
a difference and kind of organize the others around it.
And that is this reality that the church is God's
gift to us as a a spiritual greenhouse for exiles.
I mean, I one of the things I talk to
people about the most is just how exhausted they are. And,
(42:13):
you know, yes, the the reality of remote work being
an option now for a whole lot of people and
just the different, you know, the suburban context that I'm in,
you know, you're always driving to one place or another,
you feel very, um, disintegrated. And what I mean by
that is not, you know, dissolved, uh, in that sense.
But like, we are unintegrated by all of these technologies
(42:35):
and the pressures of living in the modern world. And
what the church is, is a spiritual greenhouse. It's a
refuge where the cultivation of, of human flourishing can happen.
And in that greenhouse, yes, there are times when we
are being pruned, but we're also being nourished and fed and,
and growth is cultivated because these things are, you know,
(42:57):
reintegrated into life. And so, um, I think part of
the problem with individualism is that, you know, if individualism
can be boiled down to one thing, it'd be this
idea that we we achieve, we must achieve our dignity,
value and worth our identity. But within the church's walls,
you you don't have to achieve anything. You can actually
rest because you can receive the identity, the dignity, value
(43:21):
and worth. Uh, of of what it means to be
in Christ. We don't just have a name of our
own that we have to to make for ourselves. We
actually have the name above all names. Through our connection
to the body of Christ. And in that, just like
you know, you know, if we live, as you know,
amputated limbs from the body, that reconnection is what brings
(43:45):
the the flow of Christ's blood and oxygen and everything
that is life giving about being in Christ. We actually
can apprehend for ourselves and experience and and take with
us into the world throughout the rest of our week.
And so I just I cannot that that kind of
image and metaphor has been so helpful for, for people.
(44:07):
When I talked about.
S1 (44:09):
Two part question here. Uh, as we wind down, when
you look at what's happening in the church and you
look at individuals, how they interact in society today, maybe
a word for the church. What can the church be
doing to live this out well? And secondly, what can
we as Christ followers do to live this out around
(44:31):
others that would maybe make church more attractive to the
people we're interacting with?
S4 (44:38):
Yeah, I think honestly, one of the one of the
downstream implications of the seeker sensitive movement is that we
think the church and pastors like myself, we believe that
the that how we reach people and how we make
people feel welcome is by trying to make the church
feel as familiar to the rest of everybody else's lives
(44:58):
as possible. I in other words, we think that if
the church feels strange or foreign or alien, that that
that is actually a problem. And, and I think part
of the, the, the re rethinking we have to do
is that actually the church being strange is incredibly good
and and we actually should be. Yes. Still inviting and
(45:18):
making people feel welcome and being hospitable in every sense
of the word, but that that strangeness is actually the
strength of the church. And so that means things like,
you know, for one example, in my own church, we've made,
you know, this is a very weird kind of way
to answer your question, but we've made a really big
deal out of church membership for that reason. Right? We
(45:41):
we encourage people that, hey, if you want to feel
like you belong here, that often the ceiling and the
the wall that prevents people from feeling like they belong
in a church is is trying to belong without belonging
to someone. Right. And that, yes, that might preserve our
autonomy and our freedom, but we're missing out on something beautiful.
(46:05):
When you are part of a body that views things
like obligation as not a dirty word, but actually that
obligation is reciprocal. It's a two way street. And when
that is the case, that strangeness actually starts to rewire.
You and the rest of the world feels strange by comparison.
And so.
S1 (46:23):
Yeah, I've got 20s a quick word, maybe, to somebody
who wants to reach a friend and get him back
to church.
S4 (46:30):
I would say, yeah, this is weird. I would say
if you're talking to someone who you're trying to invite
to church, be like, hey, this is really weird and
strange and it's uncomfortable, and it's also worth it. And
taste and see that the Lord is good and his
bride is beautiful.
S1 (46:47):
Amen. Amen. Brad Edwards the book is the reason for church.
We'll have everything about it on our website, Radio.com. It
releases April 22nd. I think it would be a great
read for you. The reason for church, why the body
of Christ still matters in an age of anxiety and
division and radical individualism. Equipped with Chris Brooks is a
(47:08):
production of Moody Radio, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
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