What if Jesus was Serious About Prayer?

What happens when you pray? For many of us, praying has become more like a two-way transaction with a heavenly vending machine than a warm encounter with our heavenly Father. If you long to get more than answers when you go to prayer, listen to the Equipped with Chris Brooks as Skye Jethani helps us learn to pursue God through a praying life, just like Jesus did.

Featured resource:
What if Jesus was Serious About Prayer? by Skye Jethani

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Episode Transcript

S1 (00:15):
Today's program has been pre-recorded so our phone lines are
not open. Hey there friends, welcome to another exciting edition
of equipped with Chris Brooks! I am absolutely thrilled and
encouraged that you would listen to our program today. Why
don't you do me a favor? Strap on your seatbelt.
We're going to navigate through the contours of culture, as always,

(00:38):
with the lens of the biblical worldview on. But before
we do that, let me remind you, this is the
day that the Lord has made. He has given it
as a gift so that you and I can rejoice
and be glad in it. So let's do just that.
Let's follow the words of the Apostle Paul. Let's rejoice
in the Lord always. And again I say rejoice! And boy,
do we have a great discussion today. If I were

(00:59):
to ask you, what are the top priorities of the
Christian life? What would you say? As someone who has
surveyed the scriptures, someone who has spent time in in church,
I would venture that many of us would probably say, hey,
our top priorities are to win the world for Christ,
to evangelize, to do missions for Jesus. Some might even

(01:22):
be more justice oriented and to focus in on healing,
brokenness and restoring dignity to those who have been deprived
of that. All of those things are beautiful things. But
where does prayer rank in your list of priorities or
rhythms of the spiritual life? What is prayer? Why is
God giving it to us? I would argue that prayer

(01:45):
is not only often minimized and devalued, but it is
one of the most misunderstood rhythms or disciplines of the
Christian life that exist. And so today, I want to
have a conversation around a wonderful book that I love,
both because of its content in writing and its illustration. Uh,

(02:07):
it's entitled What If Jesus Was Serious About prayer? The
author is Scott. It is always a blessing to have
sky with us. Sky is one of the most thoughtful
Christians of our time. He's an author. He's a speaker, consultant,
ordained pastor. Uh, he is a podcaster as well. He

(02:28):
can catch his podcast with the Phil Vischer Podcast, the
holy podcast, uh, get, uh, get your ears wrapped around
those because you're going to find this intersection of, uh, great, uh,
biblical and cultural analysis, as well as a little laughter
and humor thrown in as well. Sky's books, all of

(02:48):
them are worth reading. And I highly commend to you
this visual guide to the spiritual practice. Most of us
get wrong, it's entitled again, what if Jesus was serious
about prayer? Sky, how are you, my friend?

S2 (03:03):
I'm great. Thank you for having me back on.

S1 (03:05):
Hey, it's great to have you, uh, on with us. And, uh,
before we get into the content of your book. How
are you and the family doing?

S2 (03:15):
Uh, given a very tumultuous year, I know many who've
been through difficulties. We we survived pretty well and grateful
for that. Very grateful.

S1 (03:23):
Everybody healthy and strong.

S2 (03:24):
Yes.

S1 (03:25):
Well, praise God for that. Hey, you continue to challenge
us as believers. You continue to, um, I think, uh, really, uh,
direct us to truth and to make sure we reexamine
the scriptures for what they actually say as opposed to, uh,
kind of how we've been culturally conditioned. How much does

(03:48):
cultural conditioning, if you will, even within the church, hinder
our ability to kind of properly see Scripture?

S2 (03:55):
How much time do you have? I mean, it's everything
and it's not just us. You can go back and
look at the Pharisees in the Gospels. They were culturally
conditioned to see God a certain way, to see Scripture,
a certain way to see their enemies a certain way,
and to see the expectant Messiah a certain way. To
the point where these were men who had literally memorized

(04:19):
the entire Hebrew Bible, the entire Old Testament. They'd made
it their mission to obey every command in the Old Testament.
And yet, when the God of the Old Testament takes
on flesh and is standing right in front of them,
they don't recognize him. That's all cultural conditioning. So if
they could be guilty of that, if they could succumb
to that, certainly we can as well. So we have

(04:40):
to be somewhat skeptical of our own assumptions and cultural formation.
We it's a little bit like the commandment in the
Old Testament to honor your mother and father. We need
to honor the people, the communities, the traditions that have
shaped and formed us. But our mothers and fathers are
not sinless. They are not without fault. And so we
need to honor what we've come from without just accepting

(05:02):
everything we've come from blindly.

S1 (05:05):
Yeah. I think what you just said kind of summarizes
what I would say if someone were to ask me
to describe this guy, I would say he is a
man that God has really made. Um, maybe, uh, more
sensitive than most to this reality of the fact that
we should be skeptical about ourselves, but never about God

(05:25):
and never about His Word. That while His Word is true,
so often we misunderstand it and we codify our misunderstandings
inculturate those misunderstandings. And today I want to hopefully dispel
false narratives around prayer. This spiritual practice of prayer. Why

(05:45):
write a book on prayer?

S2 (05:48):
Uh, you know, I think publishers would probably like to
ask me that too, because I don't think traditionally books
on prayer are super popular unless it's frankly false teaching
on prayer, which is very popular. Uh, I think we
we've we talk a lot about the problems facing the
American church, all the decline in church membership, for example, the,

(06:08):
the deterioration of traditional Christian values in a lot of
our communities, and everyone's in a hurry to try to
fix those issues. And I don't think we're going to
get anywhere near addressing that stuff until we deal with
our own foundational issue, which I think is that we
haven't really taught people how to actually live in communion
with God. Wow. And until we get that set right

(06:29):
personally and corporately. Forget all this other stuff that we,
you know, get all animated about. We've got to deal
with that. And I think that has to do with prayer.

S1 (06:39):
I am grateful that this program is live today. That
means we can invite our listeners into the conversation. Folks,
you'll have to determine whether or not you want to
take us up on that offer. But I do think
having Sky on is always a joy. And, uh, he is, again,
one of the most thoughtful believers I know. And I
would encourage you, give us a call at 8775675. That's

(07:03):
877548 75. Whether your questions are about the practice of
prayer and your honest struggle with it, or maybe your
questions are about exactly what Skye mentioned and that is
communion with God. How do I have that? How do
I experience greater intimacy with God? 877548 36. 75. Um, Skye,

(07:28):
it's interesting when you talk about our lack of communion
with God, or at least our lack of emphasizing the
importance of that. Contrast that to this sense of a
generation that has been told from birth that we have
to reject the ordinary and do something that is absolutely

(07:50):
world changing and radical. That seems to drive certainly my
generation is a Gen Xer. Even more millennials and and
it's left a lot of carnage in its wake. What
do you say to those young people who have been
trained this way?

S2 (08:06):
Yeah, I'm a Gen Xer too, and I definitely felt
a little bit of that as an adolescent and young
adult in the church, and definitely more so with millennials
and now Gen Z. I think it comes from the
best of intentions. I think a lot of us in
church leadership look at the world. It's lostness, it's brokenness,
the injustice and pain and sorrow of it all. And
we we have a God inspired desire to see those

(08:29):
things fixed and healed. And we see young people, sometimes
our own children, and we want them to be part
of fixing what's wrong in the world. But the problem
then is we impose this God language onto it, and
we say, God wants you to fix the world, and
God wants you to change things. And you know, we
need to advance the kingdom for Christ. And again, all
for good reasons. But we fail to recognize how that's

(08:53):
that's actually a false gospel. And what's implied by those
messages is that somehow God needs us to accomplish something
for him in the world. Not only is that an
at an incredibly diminished vision of God, as if he
needs us for anything, but it puts a heavy burden
on these young people who think that I'm only really
acceptable to God and others if I do something big

(09:15):
and radical. And that's simply not the message of Scripture.
One of the one of the pillars of evangelicalism and
sociologists have discussed this is activism, right? This belief in
advancing some cause, whether it's evangelism or justice, whatever it
might be. And I don't want to say that's bad,
but it's not the most important thing. And for me,

(09:36):
the tragic piece in all of this is more than
any other tradition of the church. Evangelicalism emphasizes having a
personal relationship with God. Right. We hear that all the time.
It's it's everywhere in our rhetoric. And yet we rarely
ever teach people how to actually have a personal relationship
with God. What we do is we talk about a
personal relationship with God, but then we equip people to

(09:58):
do things for God to be on mission for God,
or to change the world for God. But we jump
over actually having that relationship. And as that gets wider
and wider, our activism burns us out. And we're not
being grounded in that living communion with God himself. It
leads to burnout, hypocrisy, a failure of our families and churches.
We have seen one scandal after another in the evangelical

(10:21):
church in recent years. And I think it's rooted in, frankly,
this false gospel we've been preaching of activism rather than communion.

S1 (10:30):
Yeah, I think so many are have negative, uh, perspective
or opinion on this generation believers, be it millennials or
Gen Z now. But I think there's a lot that
they get. Right. Although certainly he's called to older because

(10:50):
they're wise. And hopefully the strength of the younger and
the wisdom of the older can come together. Um, but
it seems to me that as I look at younger Christians,
there is a shifting emphasis towards intimacy. Are you encouraged
by that?

S2 (11:05):
I am I, I kind of see both sides of
it there at the same time. There appears to be
this greater drive towards activism. At least that's been my
experience as I get around the Christian college campuses, especially, um,
but I think there's a reaction against that saying there
is a desire for this deeper intimacy, and they're looking
for mentors. They're looking for voices in the church to

(11:27):
teach them how to do that. And a lot of
them aren't finding them because there's so much fear and
anxiety in evangelicalism right now for various cultural and political
reasons that the emphasis is on, oh my gosh, we
have to do something before the ship sinks. And that
doesn't lend itself to contemplation, quietness, stillness and prayer. It

(11:48):
lends itself to we need to, you know, storm the
gates and take back the world for Jesus. And unfortunately,
a lot of damage gets done when you put that first.

S1 (11:59):
Talk a little bit before we go to break about
pastors and prayer, were you surprised when you did research
for this book on man, the relatively low numbers as
it pertains to how pastors in their own walk with
Jesus rank prayer?

S2 (12:13):
I wish I could say I was surprised, but no,
I wasn't. The data. I don't have it in front
of me. It's in the opening of the book. Um,
there's a survey of pastors around the country to ask
them what their priorities were. And I think evangelism and
preaching were one and two. I forget the order. And
dead last was prayer. And it doesn't surprise me for
two reasons. Number one, um, having been a pastor in

(12:36):
a local church setting, I know the pressure that these
women and men feel. And very often, prayer gets ranked
last when there's just performative things that have to be done.
But then number two, Dallas Willard, who was a mentor
of mine, used to say, your system is perfectly designed
to produce the results you are experiencing. And frankly, most
of our churches don't value or. um, they don't validate

(13:02):
pastors who make prayer a priority, right? They they validate
the pastor who makes. Well, the ABC's a priority attendance,
buildings and cash. And so the system is designed to
reinforce pastors who can build attendance, get more money, and
make bigger facilities and broader ministries. That's what gets rewarded.
It's not the pastor who spends time in deep communion

(13:24):
with God. Um, and I think that's evident, then in
what we celebrate. It's not pastors who display the fruit
of the spirit love, joy, peace, patience, all the things
that come from a life of prayer. It's pastors who
are aggressive and bombastic and and accomplish a lot, as
we would measure that in an American kind of business
corporate mindset. And then you're surprised that we get the

(13:47):
outcomes we get and the the downfalls and scandals that
we see. It's it's the system is designed to do this.
And it's the system which does not value leaders who
commune deeply with God.

S1 (13:58):
I think that your book helps us to remember what
Scripture tells us is most important, and that is a
relationship with our God. And praise God that Jesus has
made that possible. And we want you to be able
to experience that. We're going to take a short break.
I see calls coming in. If you're on the line,
please stay there. We're going to try to get to

(14:19):
your calls. You're an important part of this conversation with
Scott Gitani. The book is entitled What If Jesus Was
Serious About Prayer? And it is certainly a serious book.
It is also a visual guide to the spiritual practice
most of us get wrong. We're going to talk about
what it means to have a book that's a visual guide,

(14:40):
and I think you're going to absolutely love it. I
know I do. So I encourage you to, um, why
don't you order a copy to do that? Now go
to our website, radio Dot. Whatever you do, don't go anywhere.
Much more to come. Next up on equipped with Chris Brooks.

(15:02):
Do you have questions about your sexuality that no one
seems to address, whether it's sexual sin, gender confusion, or
issues in your marriage? Surrender Sexuality by Doctor Julie Slattery
has insights you need. She'll help you to see that
God wants to be invited into your questions and struggles.
And when you do, everything changes. Request your copy with

(15:26):
your gift of any amount. To equip, simply call [phone]
or visit Equip Radio. Chris Brooks here reminding you that
today's program is pre-recorded and we won't be taking your calls.

(15:47):
Welcome back to equipped With. Chris Brooks is my guest,
pastor and author, speaker, and podcaster. Is his most recent
work is What if Jesus was serious about prayer? Uh,
we're talking about that. We're also taking your calls at eight,
seven seven, five four, eight 3675. That's 8775675. Sky, as

(16:14):
I promised, I want to go to the phone lines.
So let's go to James, who's listening to us in
Pompano Beach, Florida. Hey, James, thank you so much for
your patience for listening. What's your question for Sky today?

S3 (16:27):
Oh, I love what I'm listening to because prayer has
really helped the depth of intimacy in my relationship with
my Lord and Savior. My question is, I, you know,
just getting up and committing to getting on my knees
before I wake or when I wake up and before
I go to bed has been the best thing to shoot,
you know, to help me advance in that area. But

(16:49):
I'm just wondering. I wanted to get feedback on what
you think is the most important thing to advance and
have prayer help you deepen your intimate relationship with our
Lord and Savior.

S2 (17:02):
That's a great question, James. Um, this is going to
sound strange. I'll admit it right now, but it's the
answer I usually give to, um, younger adults. Although I
think it applies increasingly to us who are older. I
think the greatest barrier to developing intimacy with God is
our cell phones. And the reason I say that is
not because of any Christian data or research, but actually

(17:24):
secular research. Uh, there's a woman at MIT named Sherry
Turkle who's researched the effects of technology for a long time.
She wrote an amazing book called Alone Together. And what
she concluded is that in order to develop intimate relationships
just between people, the prerequisite is self awareness. Self-knowledge. When

(17:46):
you know what's inside of yourself, you then have something
meaningful and intimate to share with another person. But in
order to gain that self-knowledge, you have to be bored.
You have to be alone, quiet, unstimulated, without screens or music.
And when you are alone, you find that all the
stuff inside of you starts bubbling to the surface gratitude, anger, jealousy, resentment, grief,

(18:12):
all the things that we kind of push down. It
comes to the surface, and it's those deeper truths within
us that then fuel give us kind of the building
blocks to develop intimacy with someone else as we share
those deep truths of ourselves and risk sharing that with
someone else. So she talks about how the advent of
cell phones has eliminated boredom from our lives. Even when

(18:34):
you're standing in line at the, you know, getting your
driver's license renewed, you don't have to be bored anymore
because you can just pick out your phone and scroll
social media, look at the headlines, whatever. And that lack
of boredom means an entire generation is now growing up
that lacks the basic ability to have intimate relationships with
one another. And another. And we're seeing this. Fewer young
adults are dating, fewer people are getting married, fewer people.

(18:57):
I mean, depending on how you view this is good
or bad, are able to have sexual, intimate relationships with
each other. I mean, it's a fascinating phenomenon. All this
to say, the same disruption is happening in the spiritual
lives of people. I think we don't really know how
to have intimate communion with God, because we don't know
what's in us. We don't know what we're bringing before him.

(19:17):
And honesty, self awareness is the prerequisite of intimacy, even
with God. So I would argue if you really want
to develop deep relationships not just with God, but with anybody,
set aside time to put your phone away and deal
with the garbage inside yourself and allow that to fuel intimacy.

S1 (19:38):
Thanks, James, for your call. The rest of you, I
want to make sure we encourage you to call at 8775675.
Maybe you have questions about prayer, about intimacy with God. Uh, James, uh,
from Pompano Beach. Please stay on the line. We'd love
to get your copy of this wonderful book. What if
Jesus was serious about prayer? Uh, point number one in

(20:00):
your book, if Jesus was serious, uh, then to whom
we pray is more important than how we pray. Talk
about that.

S2 (20:08):
Uh, yeah. There was a rabbi who said the the.
I forget the exact quote, but something along the subject
of prayer is God. It's really all about who he is.
And we often put the emphasis on technique. What are
the right words to say? The right ways to pray,
the right places and forms in which we ought to pray.
And all of that really ultimately doesn't matter if we

(20:30):
have a clear vision of the one to whom we pray.
Think about all the different people Jesus welcomed into his presence,
and all the weird stories and ailments and backgrounds they had.
He didn't put prerequisites in place. He welcomed them as
they were because their focus was, I just want to
get closer to this. Jesus. And I think that's what

(20:52):
we need. To really develop an intimate relationship with God
is get our vision filled with who he is, rather
than the techniques. And most of what I encountered in
reading about prayer from popular sources, the emphasis was on
the techniques. And I think that's the cart before the
horse for sure. So we have to broaden that vision
of who God is. And I think a lot of

(21:13):
things fall into place once we do that.

S1 (21:15):
Before we get to the character of God. The second
point what is a visual guide?

S2 (21:21):
A visual guide is just one that uses illustrations rather
than only words. I recognize there's a lot of people
in our world today who learn more visually than audibly
or in writing. So the book has short chapters, just
2 or 3 pages each. And each chapter includes a
drawing that I've done, or a graph, or a doodle,
or some way of illustrating the point that if people

(21:44):
learn better through focusing on those images. Great. I just
think this content is so important that I wanted to
reach people in whatever way I could.

S1 (21:52):
So you take full responsibility for all your doodling, is
that right?

S2 (21:56):
Yeah. And I am no artist. Believe me, these are
these are not great illustrations, but I think they're accessible.
Let's put it that way.

S1 (22:03):
They are, they are. They're great. And I appreciate it.
And even with the, uh, the chapter on what it
means to be radical, you draw a person with, uh,
tree roots up under them. And, uh, you use that
word radical in its Latin definition, um, to have roots

(22:25):
to the unseen part of our lives, if you will.
And I think these visuals are very, very powerful. And
I would add, in particular, as we talk a lot
about this generation, so many have Add or ADHD and
the thought of reading without visuals is hard. I remember

(22:45):
being in a conference with a very accomplished speaker who
lived with this ADHD, and he says it is very
hard for him to even sit through a presentation as
a speaker himself without visuals. And so I appreciate the
visuals because they not only bring the teachings to life,
but they help to keep our attention. So thank you

(23:06):
for that. Got characters? Character matters, doesn't it?

S2 (23:10):
Yeah. It's huge. It's everything.

S1 (23:13):
And in your book you illustrate that and you talk
about that. If Jesus was serious, then God's character matters
more than ours. Why is that so important for us
to embrace?

S2 (23:25):
I think some of us have bought into this idea
and not completely without biblical merit. But we've bought into
this idea that my holiness, my righteousness, my lack of
sin is what will make my prayers powerful and effective.
And what that mindset does is it makes my character

(23:47):
more important than God's. And that's that's going to be
a problem. What we need to recognize is the reason
why God receives our prayers and and answers them is
because of who he is. It's about his character and
his honor and his righteousness. And again, the larger our
vision is of who God is. It's a little bit

(24:08):
like John the Baptist when he said, you know, I
must decrease and he Jesus, must increase. Likewise, if we
are to develop a sustained life of prayer, then our
vision of our own importance needs to diminish, and our
vision of God and His character needs to increase. And
I think that leads to a life of not just humility,

(24:28):
but of immense gratitude and that combination of humility plus gratitude.
That's how we get joy. That's where joy comes from. Um,
but too often we're focused on ourselves, our techniques, our character,
our sin or lack of sin. And we either get
self-righteous or self Self-condemning and all of those things become
burdens and barriers to living in communion with God.

S1 (24:50):
Prayer is not a competition or an opportunity or platform
for us to highlight our holiness. It is really a
a gift that God has given us to demonstrate his
graciousness to us. It is to highlight his character, not
our own. And I'm grateful for that. But I obviously,
Scripture is really important for us to process all of this.

(25:13):
And so important that you've added readings at the end
of each chapter, and I commend you for doing that and, um,
encouraging us to be Bereans, if you will, uh, to
not only, uh, take Skye's word for it, but to
go to Scripture and to make sure that our understanding
of prayer is shaped by His word and not just

(25:35):
our cultural moment. Skye will stay with us. We'll take
a break. You guys are calling in. I want to
get to your calls. Uh, we'll go to Tennessee when
we get back, so don't go anywhere. Much more to come.
Next up on equipped. While we're on this break, check
out our website equip radio Dot. There we have links
so you can find out how to order your copy
of What if Jesus was serious about prayer? We'll be

(25:57):
right back right after this. Chris Brooks here reminding you
that today's program is pre-recorded. While we won't be taking calls,

(26:20):
we do want to connect with you on social media.
Hey there friends, welcome back to equipped with Chris Brooks
having a fascinating conversation with Scott, author, speaker, and podcaster.
He also has written this wonderful book, What If Jesus
Was Serious About prayer? It's a serious book, but it

(26:41):
also is a visual guide to a spiritual practice that
most of us get wrong. Uh, he really wants us
to prioritize intimacy with God, even above and beyond external activism.
And I think if there was a message this generation needed,
it is certainly that we're going to go to your
phone calls in just a moment at 8775675. That's 877548 3675.

(27:08):
Let's go to Tim who's listening in Jasper, Tennessee. Hey, Tim,
thanks so much for listening. What's your question for Scott?

S4 (27:17):
Hey, um, I've been trying to find my way closer
to God, but I have struggled and struggled with with
the with two of the most important things you know,
you can do is pray and read the Bible, and
I would I would like to ask, you know, how
would I find in myself what's stopping me from from

(27:38):
drawing nigh to God and and in the Bible reading
and in prayer. If some kind of helpful hint would.
I would appreciate it.

S2 (27:48):
That's him. That's that's a common I think you're speaking
for probably millions and millions of people when you ask
that question. I've certainly been there as well. Without knowing
you personally, it's sometimes difficult to diagnose exactly what the
barrier might be. But let me let me take a
shot at it. I think part of the barrier for
me when I was younger was I just fundamentally misunderstood

(28:11):
what prayer was. I think a lot of us, for
good reasons, have been taught that prayer is primarily communication.
It's talking to God. It's either verbally talking to him
or at least in our mind, talking to him. And
if prayer requires words and we're just not wordy people,
and frankly, a lot of us who are men tend

(28:32):
not to be wordy people, especially if you're an introvert. Um,
prayer just feels like something odd and forced and contrived
and I'm supposed to do it, so I guess I
should do it, but then I don't want to do it.
I think that's all rooted in a too narrowly defined
understanding of prayer. Prayer is not just communication. I think

(28:53):
a better definition is that prayer is communion. Prayer is
being in the presence of God. Prayer is bringing ourselves
in the presence of God. Very often we do that verbally.
We do that with our words. But by no means
is that the only form prayer takes. The Apostle Paul
in first Thessalonians commands us to pray without ceasing. And

(29:16):
some people think he's using hyperbole. He's exaggerating. I don't
think he was for a number of reasons, but I
think he was being totally serious. I think we are
to literally pray without ceasing. But if prayer is defined
by words, that's impossible because we can't be talking to
God non-stop. But we can be aware of God's presence non-stop.
We can abide in his presence even when we're talking

(29:39):
to someone else, or we're doing our chores or our work,
or we're dealing with our kids, all of that can
be done with an awareness of God's presence. Jesus, throughout
his ministry, we know, regularly went away to mountainsides or
the wilderness to be alone with his father and to
pray to his father. And we ought to do that
as well. That's a good thing to do. But he
would always come back from those moments and engage in

(30:01):
public ministry. He would teach and he would heal. Was
he any less with his father when he did those
activities than when he was alone on the mountainside? Of
course not. But he was communing with his father. He
was in the father's presence, and he used the father's power.
And he drew and his communion with God the Father
to do all those things. And that's what we're to do, too.

(30:22):
So if you struggle with talking to God, fine. Put
that aside for a little while and just do your
ordinary work with an awareness of his presence. And there's
different things we can do to make ourselves aware. I
had a mentor years ago, um, say just every time
you walk through a doorway, be reminded of God's presence,
or every time you look at a clock or a watch,

(30:42):
be reminded of God's presence and his love for you.
His his presence with you, his grace. And as you
develop and cultivate that capacity, you'll find that your life
with him expands far broader than you ever expected it to,
beyond words. And that is transformative as well. So we
have to have this bigger vision. It's more than words.

(31:02):
It's more than communication. It's communion.

S1 (31:06):
So grateful for you, Tim. Why don't you stay on
the line there? We'll get you a copy of sky's book. Sky.
You say this I love this. That prayer is not
a transaction with a heavenly vending machine. I think that's
one of the other. Maybe misunderstandings we have about prayer
is that prayer is simply about me requesting from God

(31:27):
what I think is most important to me.

S2 (31:30):
Yeah, this this is deeply rooted in a lot of
American Christianity because we are a consumer culture, and in
a consumer culture everything is transactional. And when we approach
God that way, what we're really saying is, God, I
don't want you. I just want what I can get
from you. And so I will say these words, and

(31:50):
I will go through these motions in order to get
what I really want, which is whatever the request is
of my prayers. And sometimes those things we ask for
are really good and righteous and and wonderful. They're not
all bad things. It's just like we're, you know, always
begging God for a new car or a bigger house
or something. It's something's really great. Things like I, you know,
I want my kid to be safe or I want

(32:11):
so-and-so's health to be restored. Those are good things. But ultimately,
what we're saying is we don't want you. We want
what we can get from you. And you see this
in the Gospels over and over and over again. All
kinds of people come to Jesus asking for things from him,
and he gives it to them. But there comes a
couple of points. One of the best is in John
chapter six. Or there's this multitude of people following Jesus

(32:34):
and they want more miracles. They want to see more,
you know, fireworks. And he says, no, I'm done. I'm
not giving you more miracles. And then he starts teaching
them some pretty crazy stuff about drinking his blood and
eating his flesh and and how he's the true bread
that comes down out of heaven. And what Jesus is
saying in that chapter is, do you really want me

(32:54):
or are you just here for what you can get
from me? And by the end of John six, it
says that the entire multitude, everybody left him and they
stopped walking with him except for the 12. And he
turned to them and said, aren't you guys going to
go home, too? And Peter said, we would, but we
left everything up in Nazareth when you called us away
from our fishing boats. And then he said something wonderful,

(33:14):
which is besides, you have the words of life. In
other words, you know, we really want you, Jesus. And
I think that's sort of a it's not only a
model of the progression of discipleship, but it's a model
of the progression of prayer. Immature prayer usually focuses on
what can I get from God. It's very transactional. But
as we come to see Jesus more clearly for his
own beauty and goodness and power, we discover that we

(33:38):
don't just want things from him, we actually want him.
And that's when prayer takes on a whole new dimension,
which is truly Christian and not just transactional and pagan.
And that's what I think we we are ultimately called to,
is to desire God in our prayer, not just what
we get from him.

S1 (33:55):
One of the simplest and maybe most convicting illustrations that
you have, visual doodling, if you will, that you have
in the book, is on the one hand, on the
one side of the page is, um, a ledger that
has the cost of a typical church building, a $15
million in the US, staff cost of $5 million. Audio

(34:20):
visual equipment, digital $3 million. Budget programs $2 million budget.
But the impact of all of that, we know from
just about every study that we look at, is is
declining less disciples. Uh, certainly a smaller portion of our
culture country having a biblical worldview. Uh, you can list

(34:42):
a number of measurables for that. On the right hand
of the page, you have a person kneeling in prayer,
and it cost $0 for us to pray. But we
know that the impact of that is infinite. It is
increasing when we pray. Talk about just that illustration and

(35:02):
what you would hope to drive home there.

S2 (35:04):
Yeah, that came to mind when a couple of years ago,
I was speaking at a large, um, trade event, really for,
for churches. And the trade event was to sell churches,
theatrical equipment. Right? All the, the lights and the sound
equipment and the smoke machines, all that kind of stuff.
I don't know why I was invited to speak there,
but I was and they wanted me to speak on trends, data,
what's going on in the church today? And one of

(35:25):
the studies I found was from the Barna Group, where
they asked young adults. What has helped you grow most
in your faith? And the surprising answer? The number one
answer from young adults was prayer. And the joke I
made at this conference, at this trade show was, you know,
the great thing about prayer is it's really inexpensive. And

(35:46):
of course, this is when they're in this trade show
where they're being sold thousands and thousands of dollars worth
of of more worship theatrical equipment. And I just think
it highlights how off base so much of the American
church has become. We think that to accomplish the work
that God has given us, we need to spend millions
of dollars entertaining people and creating these fireworks shows for them,

(36:08):
when all along the most transformative thing we have, which
is the presence of God Himself, is available to anyone,
anywhere with no cost. But we don't teach people how
to have that communion with God. And I think part
of the reason is, frankly, those of us in church
leadership are afraid that if people really have this deep,
self-sustaining communion with God. They won't need us and they

(36:31):
won't need our institutions. And at the end of the day,
we think we've been hired to sustain an institution rather
than make disciples. And those are often very different things.

S1 (36:41):
It's interesting because recently in the conversation with Dallas Jenkins,
who is the executive producer behind the chosen series.

S2 (36:50):
Right.

S1 (36:51):
He just he just shared about how going into that series,
he knew he didn't have the budget to make a
sci fi series. It would cost tens of millions of
dollars to do that. So instead, he based that series
off of the relational ministry of Jesus and, um, highlighting
the humanity, if you will, of the people he interacted

(37:14):
with and how Jesus related to them. And I think
there's a beauty in that. And you have as an
another illustration in the book, uh, to highlight this thought
that if Jesus was serious and as simple as prayers
can link earth and eternity. Just a man sitting at
his table with a loaf of bread. Uh, praying over

(37:37):
that bread. So talk a little bit about how simple
prayers carry much power.

S2 (37:44):
Yeah, I think it was Pascal who said that God
has given us prayer to give us the dignity of
being causes, which is kind of archaic language, but it's
the idea that when we pray, heaven and earth overlap
the way that the ancient Israelites thought the temple was
the point of overlap between heaven and earth. Well, prayer
is where heaven and earth overlap and where we get

(38:07):
to not only commune with God, but we invite his
power and presence to where we are. And the fact
that that immense privilege is given to anyone, even the
most uneducated, unsophisticated, um, Um, day laborer out in some

(38:27):
field or over a loaf of bread somewhere. That that
power is granted to us speaks to the immense dignity
we have as those created in God's image. But it
also speaks to how lost we've become in so many
affluent parts of the world, where we think the work
of God and the ministry of his kingdom requires great

(38:48):
worldly power, wealth, sophistication, buildings, and technology. I mean, those
things have their place, but by no means are they essential.
Are they required? If we really want to see the
power of heaven brought to earth as Jesus taught us
to pray in the Lord's Prayer? May your will on
earth be done as it is in heaven. That happens
when God's people pray. It's not just when they build

(39:11):
huge institutions or they, you know, start huge political action
committees in Washington, DC to see certain people elected or unelected.
It happens when we pray. And I think we've just
simply lost sight of that, because we've gotten so caught
up in all of the other tools that we as wealthy, affluent,
educated people have at our disposal. And sometimes we need
to look back at what's the most simple thing out there.

S1 (39:33):
Humbling, but very important reminder. Okay, here's what we're going
to do. We're going to take a break. These breaks
are really important because they give you opportunity to go
to our website to find out more about the resource.
We're also featuring Sky and a resource available on our
social media platforms as well that's Equip Radio on Facebook
and Twitter. What if Jesus was serious about prayer? Now

(39:55):
Sky is going to stay with us over the break. Sky.
When we come back, we'll be in the rapid fire
round what I call the rapid fire round. We'll try
to fit as many questions as we can into the
last few minutes of the program, and you'll give us
well reasoned, thorough answers to those tough questions. But what

(40:15):
should we pray about? How long should we pray? And, uh,
is it ever a time in prayer where we should
expect God to say, no, don't go anywhere. Much more
to come. Next up on equipped with Chris Brooks. Each
day on equip, we confront the cultural challenges of our time,

(40:37):
offering biblical truth with discernment and confidence in God's plans
and purposes. Your support as an Equipper helps us reach
more people with God's truth, and you'll receive exclusive monthly
resources and updates to encourage your spiritual life. Become an
Equipper today and partner with us in this vital ministry.

(40:58):
Call 888644 4144 or go online to equip radio.org. Today's
program has been prerecorded so our phone lines are not open.
Welcome back to equipped with Chris Brooks. Scott is with me.

(41:20):
What if Jesus was serious about prayer is the book.
Let's ask some questions that are coming in. First off,
via Facebook, one of our listeners asked, is the length
of prayer important? Your answer?

S2 (41:32):
Uh, well, going back to Paul again, I think prayer
should be without ceasing. If you think of prayers communication,
then you're always going to be wondering, did I pray enough?
Did I say enough? It's not about just communication, it's communion.
And that should be unending. So I think the question
of how long should I pray is it gets into
the mechanics again and, um, misses the point.

S1 (41:52):
Uh, Roseanne from Bradenton, Florida, asked a question. Um, how
does this book or what you're sharing? Um, impact group prayer?

S2 (42:04):
That's a really good question. You know what? Um, some
things certainly apply to group prayer. Other things don't. Like what?
I just mentioned to pray without ceasing. If we do
group prayer without ceasing. Shoot me now, man. I don't
want to do that like that. I don't want no
one wants to do that. Um, but. So there are
some things which are about the individual's communion with God.
And then there's a different dynamic. When we gather together

(42:25):
as a community and we want to commune with God. Uh,
part of it, I think, is we have to separate petition,
which is part of prayer from the broader idea of prayer.
When we gather as a group and we pray for
specific things, when we petition God with certain requests, that
is very appropriate to do in a group. Um, but
that doesn't encompass all that prayer is.

S1 (42:48):
Um, in your book you say this If Jesus was serious,
then sometimes God loves us too much to say yes.
What do you want us to understand there?

S2 (42:58):
Well, anybody who has children and I have three, uh,
knows that only a loving parent will say no sometimes, right.
The parent who says yes every time must hate their child,
because that child is going to ask for some pretty
stupid and self-destructive things. So the loving, the only loving
response is to say no at times. And likewise, I

(43:18):
mentioned earlier how important it is. It is for us
to be honest about what's in us and present that
truly before God. And if we're truly honest, we're going
to ask things of him and desire things which are
not ultimately good for us. And we ought to be
grateful that God doesn't answer those things or answers them
by saying no, because he wants what's better and best

(43:41):
for us. That's just what a loving creator must do.

S1 (43:44):
All right, so maybe my favorite illustration 112 page 112
of the book feelings versus voice. I'll let those who
get the book see the illustration. But you say this,
I was going to have you do a solo for us,
but I won't do that. But you say, if Jesus
was serious, then singing is also a form of prayer.

S2 (44:02):
Yeah, well, I think everyone should be grateful. You're not
asking me to do that. Um, I if I recall
from that chapter of the book, I talk about the
story from acts 16 of, uh, of Paul and Silas
in the prison in Philippi. And it's midnight. They've been
beaten to a pulp. They're chained to the wall, and they,
they start singing and, um, a little assumption on my part,

(44:22):
but my hunch is they didn't really feel like singing, right?
I mean, their, their circumstances were about as miserable as
they could be. And sometimes we need to let our
voices lead our emotions. We need to sing before we
can follow those words with the way we feel. And
I've been in that situation many, many times. I'm sure
others have. When you go to a church gathering and

(44:44):
you're just not feeling it because of the the darkness
of the week you've had, of the things you're facing,
of the, the grief, depression, whatever it might be, and
sometimes the music and the singing of your own voice
and hearing your sisters and brothers around you leads you
into a place of gratitude, of perspective, of of being

(45:06):
able to see God more clearly. Again, that's also a
form of prayer. So, um, we highly value authenticity in
our tradition of the church, but sometimes we need to
recognize that we need the help of others. We need
the written prayers of others, the written songs of others,
the voices of others to lead us to a place
where we can engage with God. Because what's in us

(45:28):
alone isn't enough.

S1 (45:30):
Scott. What's your ultimate hope for those who pick up
the book?

S2 (45:33):
My ultimate hope is that they would experience a life
with God rather than just a life for him. I
think that's what's frankly killing a lot of our church today.
It isn't what's happening. It's not the threats coming from outside.
It's not the rise of secularism or liberalism or multiculturalism
or any other isms that people are freaking out about.

(45:55):
I think what's killing the church in America is that
we have taught too many people to bend themselves and
break themselves in service for God, without ever equipping them
to live with him. And that's my ultimate hope, is
that people would draw closer to Christ and experience life
with him in a way that brings joy and Revitalization

(46:16):
and actually gives light and hope to the gospel we preach.
Because without that, what's the point?

S1 (46:22):
Brother, I praise God for you, Amanda and the kids.
Grateful for your ministry to us. I pray that God
will continue to give you strength and much grace as
you commune with him. Thanks for carving out this time, Sky.

S2 (46:35):
Thank you Chris. Anytime. I love being with you folks.

S1 (46:38):
You can find out more at our website. Equip radio
that's equip radio.org. Go there now. Uh, this is one
of those resources that I know will make your heart
happy in Jesus if you get a copy of it.
Communion more than external activity is what God is calling
us to, to live with him and not just for him. Folks,

(47:01):
I hope you've been blessed. I can't wait till we're
together again next time. Until then, remember, equipped with Chris
Brooks is a production of Moody Radio, a ministry of
Moody Bible Institute.