Why Should I Study Philosophy?

How analytically do you think? We know that ideas have consequences so shouldn't we know what the ideas that run the world mean? Do you want to grow in your ability to understand and discern philosophical ideas through a Biblical framework? Dr. Paul Copan will explain why and how Christians should study philosophy. Learn about the role of the mind in the life of faith on this edition of Equipped.

Featured resource:
A Little Book for New Philosophers by Paul Copan

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The Quiet Time Kickstart by Rachel Jones

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Episode Transcript

S1 (00:20):
Well. Hey there folks, welcome to another exciting edition of
equip with Chris Brooks. I am so glad that you've
tuned in. Why don't you strap on your seat belt?
We're going to navigate through the contours of culture, as always,
with the lens of the biblical worldview on. But before
we do that, let me remind you that this is
the day that the Lord has made. He has given
it as a gift, so that you and I might

(00:41):
rejoice and be glad in it. So let's do just that.
Let's follow the words of the Apostle Paul. Let's rejoice
in the Lord always. And again I say, rejoice with that.
I hope you are doing well and that you are
growing in Christ. Today we have a pretty, uh, exciting program,
in my opinion, for you. Today. I want to challenge you,

(01:02):
and I want to encourage you to think deeply about
how you think. Most of us don't ask the question, uh,
why do I think the way that I do? Uh,
that is the world of Old a philosophy to really
help us to grow and mature in our ability to
think well. Christianity has been described, and I think rightfully so,

(01:24):
as a worldview. This means that it is a comprehensive
way of seeing the entire world. It is a full
and complete system of belief, which is built upon the
foundation of faith that is seeking understanding or faith seeking reasoning.
We start, yes, with a foundation of faith towards God.

(01:47):
But from there, because of the way God in his
wisdom has designed us, we try our best to make
sense of the world. I would even argue, and many
have successfully, that the whole world of science could not
exist without the presupposition that there is order in the world,
and that we as human beings have been uniquely designed

(02:08):
and given the capacity to understand that order and from
that order to operate in a way that is moral
and just and productive. That brings God much glory. Now
God has made us as rational or reasoning people. So
how we think matters deeply to God, and so does

(02:28):
our ability to evaluate the moral quality and potential outcomes
of ideas. As many have said that bad ideas have consequences,
the ideas have consequences. And I've heard R.C. Sproul say
often that bad ideas have victims. And I think that

(02:49):
that's a great way of putting it. Scripture puts it
this way. For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly,
but have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments
and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God,
and take every thought captive to obey Christ, being ready

(03:11):
to punish every disobedience when your obedience is complete. Those
are the words. Those are the words of the Apostle Paul.
So how do we grow as thinkers? How do we
understand the whole world of evaluating the moral content of ideas,
so much so that we can forecast their outcomes? Well,

(03:34):
I'm glad you asked. Today I want to give you
an introduction, a little primer, if you will, to philosophy.
Philosophy is something that has often been greeted with suspicion
by many within the Christian world, but I believe that
it is possible to have a robust theology to have

(03:54):
Christ enthroned on the seat of your heart, while at
the same time understanding the importance of philosophy. And so
does my guest, Doctor Paul Copan, who's with me today.
Doctor Copan is a Christian theologian and analytic philosopher and
apologist and author. He is a dear and sincere man

(04:15):
of God whose a gift to the body of Christ.
He currently is a professor at Palm Beach Atlantic University
and holds the endowed Pledger Family Chair of Philosophy and Ethics.
He has authored or edited 35 books, both scholarly and popular,
and I love his books Is God a moral Monster

(04:36):
and Introduction to Biblical Ethics, and and more. But today
we're looking at a little book that he's written, and
I love little books, a little book for new philosophers. Paul,
how are you?

S2 (04:48):
I'm doing well, thanks. Glad to join you today.

S1 (04:51):
You know, Paul, you get a chance to live in
this world of philosophy, and I praise God for that.
And it can get pretty lofty in the discussion. You
spend a lot of time working with scholars, but today
my heart is for the layperson, if you will. My
heart is for the person who does not spend a
lot of time engaged in reading philosophical works or who

(05:15):
has not been introduced to this topic. That's why I
love the subtitle of this book, which is Why and
How to Study Philosophy. I love philosophy, and and I
want you to answer this question. Is it true that
God is making a comeback in philosophy departments around the country?

S2 (05:37):
Absolutely. There's been something of a quiet revolution from the
1960s onward, and there's been just been a growth in
the area of Christian philosophy that there have been Christians
at the forefront of cutting arguments for God, cutting edge
arguments for God's existence, putting God into a plausible context

(05:57):
that is believable in the broad in the wider culture. Uh,
so there's just been a greater influence exerted on the
part of Christians who are involved in philosophy. And so just,
you know, mainstream publishers. Oxford University Press, Cambridge University Press, uh, publishing, uh,
those who are Christian philosophers and who are committed to

(06:20):
Orthodox and Orthodox understanding of Scripture and so forth. So
it's very exciting. We're living in tremendous times. And I
think a lot of Christians in the church don't know, uh,
about these, uh, exciting trends and, uh, that there are
many wonderful things happening in philosophy departments around the country.

S1 (06:36):
What was your draw? Why why did you decide to
devote so much of your academic career and attention to philosophy?

S2 (06:46):
Well, what got me interested in philosophy was kind of accidental,
as it were haphazard. I wanted to take a certain
professor at Trinity Seminary when I was attending there, uh,
John Woodbridge and, uh, in church history. And I being
a first year seminary student, I couldn't get into the
packed class. And so I had an elective, and it

(07:07):
was a class called Religious Epistemology The Study of Knowledge,
and with a philosopher, Stuart Hackett. And I loved it.
It was such a great class that answered a lot
of questions for me. Uh, it and so that was
what drew me into the realm of philosophy. I mean,
I ended up getting my Master Divinity degree from Trinity Seminary,
but I also got an additional Master of Arts in

(07:27):
philosophy and then went on to get a PhD in philosophy,
but I but I just found that the, the realm
of philosophy, uh, is, is was very helpful to me
as a Christian. It gave me, uh, categories and pathways
for thinking that helped to me to make better sense
of my faith and to see that it actually has
solid intellectual credentials and foundations.

S1 (07:50):
Um, I want to ask you to respond to a
very famous quote. But before I do that, I think
we would have to acknowledge that there's been, uh, to
put it politely, a lot of suspicion around the study
of philosophy and a lot of Christian circles. Um, and, um,
so much so that some would see this as a, um,

(08:14):
a show that is in error in trying to encourage
Christians to study philosophy. You're aware of this concern. What's
the origin of that? And, and and why should we
embrace the study of philosophy and not see it as
a threat to faith in Christ?

S2 (08:33):
Right. It's a it's a very the a very prevalent concern.
I think sometimes pastors or youth pastors will say, uh,
when you go off to university, uh, don't study philosophy.
You'll lose your faith. And the assumption is that philosophy
is somehow atheistic in nature. And I think that this
is just a utterly misguided, um, I think it also

(08:56):
helps to understand what philosophy is. A philosophy is something
of a of a tool, as it were, for, uh,
for thinking more deeply about various areas of life. It
could be. It could be politics, economics, science and so forth. Uh,
it basically deals with the broader questions, like you talked
about science, uh, when people when a lot of people say, oh,

(09:20):
you can't prove God scientifically. Well, that's a that there's
a philosophical assumption beneath that. The assumption is that science
somehow has all the answers, but that itself is a
philosophical position. Uh, and it's of course, of course. Self-refuting
how can you scientifically prove that all knowledge must be
scientifically provable? You can't. Um, so so again, philosophy has

(09:44):
a bearing on any discipline, including theology. Uh, in fact,
there's one, uh, one author, uh, Diogenes Allen, who taught
at Princeton Seminary and he, uh, taught seminary students about
philosophy in, in the history of doctrine because he said
every Christian major. Christian doctrine, Trinity, incarnation, and so forth

(10:08):
has philosophical language used to kind of formulate these doctrines.
And if you don't understand the philosophical language, it's going
to be hard to appreciate these categories. So so again,
that's one thing. Uh, I'd also say that the way
that people use the term philosophy now is different than

(10:29):
it would have been used in the first century. Uh,
the the New Testament theologian N.T. Wright has said that
the apostle Paul and even Jesus himself would have been
considered philosophers in the first century because they were kind
of shaking things up. Religion was kind of like a
private piety, but philosophy, like Socrates owned viewpoints, uh, had

(10:50):
the had the potential to, you know, presented a new
way of looking at the world, had a, you know,
a certain ethic that it was advocating. It was disruptive
to the kind of to the status quo and so forth. So,
so N.T. Wright says that a philosophy that the apostle
Paul would have been a first century Jewish philosopher in

(11:10):
the eyes of his contemporaries.

S1 (11:12):
So we should not say so. We shouldn't see. And
I just want to make this point, because this is
the heart of where I think you have led us,
and that is, we should not see philosophy as some
dirty word or as a pathway to heresy. What philosophy
does at its best is help Christians who have put

(11:33):
their faith and trust in Christ, uh, to be able
to think well and to be able to honor the
Lord with not only loving him with all of our hearts,
but loving him as Scripture commands us with all of
our minds as well. We have to take a short break. Um,
but we're just beginning to scratch the surface. There are

(11:54):
so many fans of Doctor Copan's work. Uh, one is, uh,
one of my former professors, doctor J.P. Moreland from Biola University.
Who says this? Copan has written the most important book
to date as to what philosophy actually is and should be,
and why it is so important for all of us

(12:15):
to study philosophy. That's pretty high praise from someone who
is very well respected in the field. As we take
this short break, we're going to come back and we're
going to ask Paul, what does Athens have to do
with Jerusalem? And we're going to ask him also to
explain to us not only why we should study philosophy,

(12:37):
but how do we do it to the glory of God?
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(12:58):
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(13:34):
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(13:55):
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(14:18):
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(14:40):
about those benefits by going to our website. Equip radio
that's equip radio or again the number 888644 4144. Uh,
Paul Copan is my guest today. He is a Christian theologian,
analytic philosopher, apologist and author. He is currently professor at

(15:02):
Palm Beach Atlantic University, a great place to senior undergrad
students to learn and grow and develop. Paul, as we
were going to break, I mentioned a quote that is
credited to Tertullian, uh, one of the early church fathers
who said this. What does Athens to do with Jerusalem?
Explain that quote and and the significance of it?

S2 (15:26):
Yeah. Of course. Um, Tertullian was talking about Athens as
representing reason and philosophy and Jerusalem representing God's special revelation
in Scripture and in Jesus Christ. And, uh, there was
a almost a, in a rationality, um, that many people
at least read into this, that he said, you know,

(15:48):
I believe, I believe because it is absurd, um, and
you know, that the Christian faith is somehow contrary to reason.
And that's the reason he believes that. Um, so so
there's this at least been a history. And it could be,
you know, we can work with that quotation and go
into detail, but but just for practical purposes, there's this
assumption that somehow philosophy and revelation are somehow pitted against

(16:12):
each other, that they contradict each other, that they don't
sit well with each other, that that's really what's at
the heart of the matter. So that's the quotation that
is so famous. And and there's that question, you know,
you know, what does faith have to do with reason.
So that's really what's at the heart.

S1 (16:29):
And your answer to, to the question, what does faith
have to do with reason and why we should study
philosophy is.

S2 (16:38):
Well, we cannot escape philosophy. Everyone, uh, as one of
my professor says, is a philosopher. We we think about
the nature of reality. That's the study of metaphysics. We
think about right and wrong. That's ethics. We think about knowledge.
Can we know things and so forth. Well that's epistemology.
These are the three major branches of philosophy, and none

(16:59):
of us could escape those things. So to some degree
or other, we will be thinking along philosophical lines. We'll
have philosophical assumptions. The question is, which, uh, which philosophical
assumptions best match up with reality? And I believe that
the scriptures make the best sense of the picture of reality,
the story of reality that this gives to us the

(17:20):
way things are. And if God is the one who
is the source of reason, then we don't have to
see faith and reason as pitted against each other. In fact,
we often see evidence and reason as being given within, say,
the New Testament. In order to believe, say, that Jesus
rose from the dead. That there are witnesses and so

(17:42):
forth that we don't have to say, oh, I'm just
going to believe it doesn't matter what the evidence is. No,
there is it's it is a personal trust. That's what
faith is, a personal trust in God or Jesus, but
it's not in opposition to the evidence, but very much
in harmony with the evidence and philosophical reasoning.

S1 (18:00):
I want 100% agree, and I want people to understand that,
that we have a faith that is grounded in the evidence.
In other words, you can be confident my my daughter
and I, she's 13, Paul, so pray for me. Um,
but my daughter and I were talking about Christmas and
Santa Claus, and she was, uh, explaining, uh, about, um,

(18:25):
Christmas to my kids. And we were talking about Santa Claus.
And I said, isn't it interesting that the older people
get the less they believe in Santa Claus? But the
older people get, the more they understand the reasons why
faith in Christ is, uh, is not only rational, but
why Christ is worth following. I think there's something here

(18:48):
that we don't have, um, a faith that is apart
from evidence, but we have one that's rooted and grounded
in evidence. Philosopher William Alston, in his book A Philosopher's
Way Back to Faith, says this philosophical thinking can enable
us to see through objections to Christian belief. It's part

(19:11):
of your hope in encouraging us to embrace that we
are all philosophers. A desire for us to be able
to be more effective witnesses for Christ.

S2 (19:22):
Absolutely. And of course, Jesus spoke about the importance of
loving God with all of our minds. And that is
the intellectual or the rational dimension. Uh, we are made
in the image of God, a rational God. And so, uh,
so this isn't a call, uh, to turn us all
into professional philosophers, but we ought to be thoughtful in

(19:42):
our faith. We ought to be. You know, Paul, the
apostle Paul says that we ought to be mature in
our thinking rather than just children tossed to and fro
by every wave of doctrine and by cultural fads being
pressed into the mold of this world. Paul says no
to be transformed by the renewing of your minds. And
and that means thinking rightly about the world, thinking rightly

(20:04):
about doctrine, seeing how doctrine fits with how we live
it out every day and to and to also as
our in our witness in our evangelism that we have
are ready with reasons when people raise objections to the
Christian faith. Well, why should I believe in Jesus? That's
just myth, right? Or, uh, isn't faith opposed to reason,

(20:24):
or isn't faith opposed to, you know, to, uh, to science, uh,
and so forth? And we ought to be able to
give some basic reasons for that. And, and just in
a very practical at a very practical level, you mentioned
that your teenage daughter, well, you know, I've got six kids.
And so we made it a practice to open up the, the,
the dinner table for whatever questions they had, creating a

(20:46):
culture of discussion, raising issues that you know, their doubts,
the questions that they have, that they felt free to
articulate them, and also to know that the Christian faith
can address those questions with great confidence, and that the
Christian faith has a whole history of intellectual giants. It's
not as though these are just new questions that are

(21:07):
all of a sudden popping up in our era. They've
been addressed and discussed over the centuries.

S1 (21:13):
I love that you brought up this this topic. And
it's kind of this conversation is going the way that
it has, because I want to just make reference to
the endorsement page of your book. I love reading through
books cover to cover and mow. Skip the preface or
the endorsement page, but I just want you to share

(21:33):
for just a moment who is Christopher Soaring Copan. And, uh,
and why did you give this endorsement? And what do
you want us to understand about parental responsibilities here?

S2 (21:46):
Mm. Well, you know, Chris is someone who came into
our home. He's not a biological child, but he came
into our home, so we've adopted him, and he is now, um,
you know, and it was really what philosophy that brought
us together and brought him into our home. And so he, um,
you know, came into our homes, uh, you know, loved

(22:06):
the world of philosophy. And we just encouraged him in it.
And now he's, uh, getting his, uh, his, uh, at
Rutgers University in philosophy.

S1 (22:17):
That is awesome. I think that is amazing. And, you know,
and I think that that speaks to, uh, just a
practical aspect of this. We want to be good thinkers
for a number of different reasons. It helps us to
be more effective evangelists. And I will tell you that
there is an assumption among some that philosophy doesn't really matter,

(22:38):
that people don't think deeply in these types of ways.
I will tell you that every single person, as you
have stated earlier, is a philosopher. Every person has reasons
why they are struggling with faith in Christ, and we
need to be able to respond to those. We also

(22:58):
need to see through those arguments and objective objections that
often come to challenge the Christian faith. We'll get to
more of that later. But from a parental perspective, we
do want to train our children on how to think well. Also,
isn't that part of our stewardship responsibility as parents?

S2 (23:18):
Absolutely. How are we equipping the next generation? How are
we training them to respond to those who are critics
of the Christian faith? Um, how will they be able
to navigate through even their own personal doubts that they
have the questions that they raise? It's not just that
we have reasons to give as we're sharing our faith
with other people, but as one theologian said, there are

(23:41):
there's an infidel or an unbeliever in each of our
hearts raising questions and doubts and so forth. And so
how do we process those questions that we ourselves have?
So we need to be better at doing that. One
of the assignments in one of my classes, I'll have
students write out like at least ten questions or doubts

(24:01):
that they have about related to Christian faith, God, the Bible,
and so forth. And I just want to see the
sorts of things that they're thinking through and where they are.
Some of them are very serious and severe doubts, and
a lot of them just are silently suffering, feeling like, oh,
maybe I can't ask this question, or maybe I'll look
like an inferior Christian if I'm raising those doubts. Uh, no.

(24:21):
We need to create a culture, a safe culture in
our churches where people can raise questions. Uh, this coming
Monday at our, you know, with our church where I'm
doing a question and answer time, kind of an open
forum for anyone who wants to come on the problem
of evil. People can just bring whatever questions they have.
We want to encourage that kind of a culture, that
kind of a setting where people don't aren't afraid to

(24:41):
ask questions but are bold in saying, this is my
this is my concern. And we want to show that
the Christian faith isn't afraid of the toughest questions.

S1 (24:50):
Yes. Um, one of the criticisms, and I want to
say one last word on this, and then we have
to go to break. But real quick response. One of
the criticisms of Christianity from a contemporary secular and scientific
culture is that Christianity lacks sophistication and is anti-intellectual. Is
part of your goal to combat that false assumption?

S2 (25:12):
Absolutely. Uh, and those who say that the Christian faith
is anti-intellectual, well, they may be looking at people who are,
you know, down the street at the local church and conversation,
reflecting on conversations they've had. But you look at the
history of the Christian faith, the intellectual history. You see,
it's an amazing history of cultural giants, intellectual giants, intellectual
powerhouses who think very deeply about these matters.

S1 (25:35):
Folks, we're just delving in and scratching the surface. We've
dealt with why we should study philosophy. When we come back,
we're going to talk about how do we do it effectively.
We're looking at a beautiful little book. I want to
encourage you to get it a little book for new philosophers.
Why and how to study philosophy. Learn more at Equip Radio.

(25:57):
Whatever you do, don't change that dial. The best is
yet to come. Next up on equip. Welcome back to

(26:20):
equip with Chris Brooks having a fascinating conversation about a
wonderful little book. Do you like little books? Well, I
got one for you that you want to add to
your library. It's called a little Book for New Philosophers.
I'll tell you something that even those who have a
history in philosophy can benefit from this little gem written
by Doctor Paul Copan. He has put together this phenomenal

(26:44):
book published through IVP, InterVarsity press. I want to encourage
you to get a copy of it. How many pages here?
I would say, Paul, about 130 or so pages of content.
But it's a small book, easy to read and so
important to the development of our faith. Find out more
at Equip radio. That's equip radio.org. With that being said, Paul, uh,

(27:10):
so grateful for all that we've been able to talk about. Again,
what is important to me is not just to have
an intellectual conversation about the field or the study of philosophy,
but to make sure we root and ground this conversation
in Scripture. So what are some of, uh, maybe 1
or 2 of your favorite passages on philosophical thinking, studying Scripture?

S2 (27:38):
Well, um, from Colossians chapter two, we read that Jesus
is the one in whom are hidden all the treasures
of wisdom and knowledge. Uh, that this is, uh, a
wonderful passage that reminds us that, uh, there are many
different truths. All truth is God's truth. And so wherever
the truth is to be found, it's anchored in Jesus.

(27:59):
And again, it doesn't mean that it's only found within
the Christian faith or truths that Paul cites when he's
at Athens, quoting from pagan thinkers. Uh, but he's drawing
on that idea that, you know, that wherever the truth, uh,
you know, wherever we find the truth, it is anchored
in God's revelation in Jesus Christ that he is the
source of truth and that we can affirm truth wherever

(28:21):
we find it. But again, saving truth is found in
Jesus Christ. But often those truths that we find in
other places, other religions, other philosophies, and so forth, we
can build bridges with people. And rather than being negative
and trying to put other viewpoints down, I mean, there's
a place for disagreement, but we can also build bridges
like Paul did at Athens and say, this is what

(28:41):
you're saying. Well, God has actually revealed himself in Jesus Christ,
who is the embodiment of truth. He is the the
one who reveals the very wisdom of God through whom
salvation comes and so forth. So that's one passage, Colossians
chapter two. And of course, the passage that I quoted
earlier that, you know, when Jesus said to love the
Lord your God with all your mind, I think that

(29:02):
is critical. And of course, you yourself quoted from, uh,
from Saint Corinthians chapter. Chapter, you know, ten, uh, where,
you know, we're there's this tearing down of arguments, those
things that set themselves up against the knowledge of Christ.
And C.S. Lewis said that good philosophy must exist if
for no other reason, because bad philosophy must be answered.

(29:23):
There are a lot of pernicious and false ideas out
there that need to be addressed, and the Christian faith
offers a response to those.

S1 (29:30):
This is a pathway for aspiring Christian leaders who may
say to themselves, well, because I love the Lord, because
I love the gospel. Because I'm a strong thinker. That
necessarily means that I have to work in a local
church setting and be a clergyman. Well, let me just
say this. What Paul represents is another very commendable pathway.

(29:52):
Maybe God is calling you to be a philosopher. We
need modern day millennials, Gen Z. We need those who
are emerging in our colleges to think through the opportunity
that is right before them to be a Christian thinker
and to be a philosopher. But I guess another question

(30:13):
that I would have is why do we need Jesus
to think properly? Why do we need Jesus to do philosophy?
Another way of asking this question is What is Paul
the impact of sin on our ability to reason and think?

S2 (30:30):
Yeah, no. Great question. Um, of course there could be
professional philosophers who are brilliant, who, uh, who can? from whom.
Christians can learn that, you know, a person doesn't have
to be a believer in order to do good philosophical work.
But keep in mind that, you know, in various passages
and you know, in Psalm one, you know, 111 or, uh,

(30:53):
or in Proverbs chapter one, the fear of the Lord
is the beginning of wisdom. That if we don't begin
thinking about the world with God at the very heart
of it, then we're going to be going spinning off
in different directions. We're not going to have a properly
coherent way of thinking about the world. Again, Jesus is

(31:15):
the one. Hebrews one. He holds all things together. He
is the one in whom are hidden all the treasures
of wisdom and knowledge. So. So again, to we can
do some good philosophical work. But again, we're not going
to have the full and coherent picture. That, again, is
at the heart of reality, namely God and His revelation
in Jesus Christ. So without that fear of God, without
that relationship with With God without that understanding that God

(31:37):
is the one, the key, as it were, that unlocks
all of these puzzles and makes sense of the fundamental
reality of the world. We're going to be going off
in all sorts of different directions and really having a
more fragmented way of looking at the world.

S1 (31:50):
Philosophy includes metaphysics, which is the study of ultimate reality.
So in not wanting to put words in your mouth,
but in what you just said, it seems to me
that you would argue that the starting point for the
proper study of philosophy is the study of God.

S2 (32:08):
Absolutely. Um, God is the one through whom everything is
to be understood. The the foundation that helps us to
make sense of things. The the the one that you know,
he is the one who offers us coherence to the
way the things in the world work. Um, where does
consciousness come from? Where does rationality come from? Where does, uh,

(32:30):
objective morality come from? Uh, if you get rid of God,
you're only exacerbating or making worse the problems of trying
to get to the bottom or the root of the matter.
And so that's what I'm often arguing that the Christian
faith actually makes sense. If you know the kind of
a common sensical approach that C.S. Lewis took, um, that
this is that this is the, you know, to get

(32:51):
rid of God means we're not going to have an
explanation or a response to the problem of evil. Uh,
I'm often telling people, if you, you know, saying, I
can't believe in God, look at all the evil in
the world that exists in the world. Well, I'll say, well,
what are the alternatives? Basically, if you get rid of God,
you're only making matters worse. It's sort of like what
Peter said in in John chapter six. Lord, to whom

(33:12):
else shall we go? You alone have the words of
eternal life, even though there may be some difficulties that
we have in our thinking, things that don't make sense,
perhaps mysteries, etc.. Well, if you if you move away
from the Christian faith, if you move away from God,
then then you're only moving further away from.

S1 (33:29):
Yeah, you don't solve the problem.

S2 (33:31):
And, you know, holistic responses to these issues.

S1 (33:34):
You don't solve the problem at all, do you? You.

S2 (33:37):
No no, no. You're only making it worse.

S1 (33:39):
You know, I named my daughter Sophia, um, our second
youngest daughter. Greek for wisdom. And, uh, my prayer every
day is that my children would be full of the
wisdom of God. But yet I'm also very much aware,
as we talk about how to study philosophy of cautionary, uh,

(34:00):
passages like First Corinthians eight and one, we know that
our hearts tend towards pride and haughtiness and why we
need redemption. In first Corinthians eight one, Paul says these
words that all possess knowledge. This knowledge puffs up, but
love builds up. Why is it so important that as

(34:21):
we study philosophy, that we do it from a place
of humility, kindness and love?

S2 (34:28):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, really the root, uh, I mean,
if you look at the etymology of the root of
the word philosophy, it's the love of wisdom. And wisdom
doesn't come with pride. It comes with humility, a willingness
to learn, to be challenged from other people's, uh, vantage
points and perspectives, and to have their input into our, uh,
into our way of thinking. And so humility is really

(34:51):
the the way of wisdom. Uh, it's not wise to
be proud and resistant to the input of others, uh,
you know, but but love, even as we're critiquing people, uh,
to do so from a spirit of love rather than
haughtiness or pride. This is fundamental to the Christian task,
to love God with all of our minds and to

(35:12):
love others, even those with whom we disagree, to do
it in a principled and gracious way, to be friends
with unbelieving philosophers. And I've worked on various projects, you know,
in book editing and so forth, where I've had very
wonderful exchanges with people who think very differently than I do,
you know, atheists and skeptics and, and people from other
religious traditions. This is part of the the calling of

(35:34):
the Christian who is engaging in this sort of philosophical task.

S1 (35:38):
You know, I'm so grateful to hear you say that,
because I think there so often we've been trained. I
jokingly say that when I started as a pastor, that
I was trained to be a pulpit sniper, to measure
victory by the amount of blood on my sword. And
I think that so often we think that our job
is to do combat with those who think differently than
we do. We are called to do combat with those

(36:01):
false ways of thinking, those thoughts that try to challenge
the knowledge of God. But as it pertains to how
we relate to those who are maybe even blinded by
the misguided philosophies of this world, the empty philosophies of
this world, uh, we are called to love them on
Christ's behalf. And so I'm grateful to hear you say

(36:23):
that you also encourage in the book for philosophy to
be studied in community. Why is that?

S2 (36:30):
Well, I think we can often just be siloed off
and kind of be lost within our own world of thinking.
And we don't actually have the the iron sharpening iron, uh,
way of going about, uh, doing philosophy where we receive
the input of others. Uh, and I give the example of, uh,
Alvin Plantinga, Nicholas Wolterstorff, when they were at Calvin College, uh,

(36:53):
that they would present their own research, their own, uh,
ideas and put them up for critique, and they would
be sharpened by this. And they became better philosophers as
a result. And I think that that's the sort of
thing that we need to be doing, engaging with one another, saying,
what do you think of this? Where am I off? Uh,
and so that's why I love even, you know, edited

(37:15):
books where we can kind of, you know, where I
can where I'm contributing to something. And the editor says,
I think this needs to be tweaked. Uh, could you
be clearer here? Uh, that's all good for us. We
become better philosophers when we're engaging in community. When we're
listening to the to others input into our into what
we're trying to do. Uh, seeing if we're off in our,
in our reasoning community is very important. Uh, and also

(37:39):
for praying with each other, supporting each other, um, part
of the Evangelical Philosophical Society. It's a wonderful place where
we're engaging in training people in local churches to think
through their faith, where we're praying with one another, where
we're supporting one another. Just got an email from someone,
you know who's a fellow philosopher at Christian philosopher saying,
you know, hey, I've got some ideas here. I'm praying
that the Lord will guide me in this. Could you

(38:01):
could we get together and talk about this? That's part
of what it means to be in a community of
Christian philosophers.

S1 (38:07):
Yeah. We, uh, are made for community. God designed us
for that. And it's his way of keeping us safe.
We live in a culture in the West, in particular
in the US of hyper individualism. But I think that
that type of hyper individualism is not only foreign to
the New Testament, it's ultimately a dangerous path. We are

(38:27):
called to live in the context of a covenant community,
in which our ideas and ways of thinking can be
challenged from Scripture, and hopefully cultivated and refined in a
way that is the is able to position us to
be a blessing to others. Well, to maximize our fruitfulness
in the lives of others, folks, we got to take

(38:49):
one last break. But while we do, it only gives
you time to be able to go to our website
in order to order a copy. And I would just
say this you probably want to get your hands on, um,
maybe a handful of copies of this wonderful little book
to give to the aspiring philosophers in your life, the

(39:12):
budding thinkers in your life, and hopefully they're sitting around
your dinner table. Hopefully they are still on your payroll
while they're in college. These are your high schoolers, your
middle schoolers, your college students. Why don't you invest in
the next generation? Get a copy of a little book
for new Philosophers pastors. This is a great book for

(39:34):
youth leaders and youth ministries as well. Parents, let's do
our job. Let's raise up the next generation of great
Christian thinkers. We'll be right back with more on equip
right after this. Equip. We confront the cultural challenges of

(39:57):
our time, offering biblical truth with discernment and confidence in
God's plans and purposes. Your support as an Equipper helps
us reach more people with God's truth, and you'll receive
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Become an Equipper today and partner with us in this
vital ministry. Call [phone] or go online to equip radio.

(40:37):
To equip with Chris Rock's. We're looking at a great book,
a little book for new philosophers. Why and how to
study philosophy. It will help to mature your faith. Go
to our website to. Learn more about the book and
its author, Doctor Paul Copan. You know, Paul, I graduated
from Biola University. Grateful for it. Uh, was able to

(40:57):
study philosophy there and influenced deeply by a number of
contemporary thinkers and philosophers Doctor William Lane Craig, J.P. Moreland, others. Uh,
but when the name Dallas Willard is mentioned, there's just
such a special place in my heart. Uh, Dallas Willard
was the famous, uh, professor of philosophy at USC, University

(41:19):
of Southern California from 65 to, I think 2013 or so.
So he was there, held at sea for a long time.
But he says this if you're going to be a doubter,
you need to believe your beliefs and doubt your doubts,
as well as doubt your beliefs and believe your doubts.
I love that. What does it mean to doubt wisely

(41:42):
and why is that important? When we talk about studying philosophy.

S2 (41:48):
Right? The. For one thing, there are different types of doubt.
A lot of people think doubting is just intellectual. Well,
sometimes doubting can just be emotional, where maybe there have
been some insecurities that stem from our past. Maybe no
real really good relationships with our parents that lead to
personal insecurities. And then you know what? Often masks is

(42:10):
an intellectual doubt is really just an emotional doubt. And
an emotional doubt is basically rooted in this emotional insecurity.
And no matter what intellectual answer somebody gives me, I'm
always going to say, yeah, but what about this? What
about that? And nothing will ever satisfy that. So there's
something deeper involved. There might be moral doubt too. A
person might have a doubt, doubts creeping in because that person's,

(42:34):
you know, starting to sleep around with his girlfriend or
engaging in certain, you know, maybe pornography or something like that.
And then all of a sudden, God's existence seems less plausible,
or doubts start to creep in all of a sudden. Well,
there's a moral component here that often goes unexamined. So
those are the sorts of things that we need to
sort out. Doubting wisely means detecting what kind of doubt
may be there. Um, so and secondly, a lot of

(42:57):
times people think if I don't have 100% certainty, then
therefore I can't justify justifiably call myself a Christian. I've
got to have 1% certainty. And that is not true
at all. No. You know, even as you look at
philosophers around the the country, no one who knows anything
about philosophy is going to say that there is a

(43:18):
that you've got to have 1% certainty in order to
have knowledge. In fact, the apostle Paul in Ephesians five
says this. You know with certainty what is his point.
He says, you can yeah, you can have some things
that are with confident knowledge, but there's some things you
don't have. You don't you don't have to have confident
knowledge in order to know about. So so we can
know things with confidence. We can know things without that

(43:39):
same degree of confidence. And so we can we need
to understand that we can have knowledge, even if we
don't have 100% certainty on some things. I mean, after all,
it's possible that this world is an illusion and that
I'm just talking to you. Uh, you know that that's
just an illusion and I'm not really talking to you,
so it's logically possible that I could be wrong, but

(44:00):
highly doubtful. Um, so anyway, we need to sometimes question
even those doubts that we may have when somebody says,
you know, when when somebody raises a question. Yeah, but
what if. Well, I mean, maybe I'm more secure in
what I actually believe than just trusting kind of a
stray doubt here or there. And I need to say, well,
why should I take that more seriously than my beliefs

(44:22):
that have much better grounding in history and philosophy and
so forth? So that's the type of thing that we
need to be doing, rather than just trusting every doubt
that comes across our minds, maybe pushing back and saying,
hold on a minute, why should I put my trust
in that, that doubt, that kind of wisp of a
of a question? Yes. And and doubt my beliefs, which

(44:44):
are much more secure. Doesn't mean that we don't ask
tough questions. And when somebody puts a question to us,
we'll we'll say, okay, that's a good, good thought. I
hadn't thought about that. And then raising some things that
kind of sharpen our faith and maybe fine tuning our beliefs.
So all of this is kind of a process in
which we engage, but just we shouldn't like Dallas Willard said,
just don't take your doubts for granted as though they're

(45:06):
authoritative and your beliefs are not.

S1 (45:09):
You know, we live in a world of, uh, a
hermeneutic of suspicion. And so often the conspiracy theorist is
considered to be authentic and true. and those who embrace
what has been historically proven to be credible is considered
to maybe be a part of the establishment. I understand
that sometimes we need to challenge the prevailing cultural assumptions. However,

(45:32):
my friends, I will tell you this that Christianity has
been time tested and proven, and there is a reason
why individuals like Doctor Paul Copan and myself are believers,
why we follow Christ. And it's because of faith and reason,
and it's at this intersection that we are able to
celebrate all that Christ has done. From a heart full

(45:54):
of love and a mind that is rooted and grounded
in the truths of the world as Christ has proclaimed them. Uh, Paul,
thank you so much for joining me today. Such a
rich conversation. Grateful for your work, my friend. Grateful for
all that God is using you to do on the
campus of Palm Beach Atlantic University, and writing broadly for

(46:15):
the rest of us. I want to encourage you folks
get a copy of this little book for new philosophers.
God bless you, Paul.

S2 (46:23):
Thank you brother. Good to be with you folks.

S1 (46:25):
Until we're together again, I do want you to visit
our website. It's so important that you learn more there
at Equip Radio that's Equip radio Dot also wants you
to go to our social platforms. Hey, the radio program
is ending but the conversation is just beginning. Leave your comments,
your questions and your thoughts on our social media platforms.

(46:48):
At Equip Radio. That's Equip Radio. You can find us
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we're together again next time. With that being said, this
is Chris Brooks. And always remember equipped with Chris Brooks
is a production of Moody Radio, a ministry of Moody
Bible Institute.