August 8, 2025 • 47 mins
Feeling exhausted, anxious, and overwhelmed? You're not alone! If you've ever said, "I just can't do it all," you’re right…you were never meant to! That's the powerful message of Kelly Kapic's book, You Were Never Meant to Do It All, and he joins Chris Brooks on Equipped with encouragement to accept God's design for our humanity so we can live well—within our limits!
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You Were Never Meant to Do It All by Kelly Kapic
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:20):
Well. Hey there friends, welcome to another exciting edition of
equip with Chris Brooks! I am so thrilled that you've
joined us today. Do me a favor. Strap on your
seat belt. We're going to navigate through the contours of culture,
as always, with the lens of the biblical worldview on.
But before we do that, let me remind you, this
is the day that the Lord has made. He has
(00:40):
given it as a gift so that you and I
can rejoice and be glad in it. So let's do
just that. Let's follow the words of the Apostle Paul.
Let's rejoice in the Lord always. And again I say, rejoice. Well,
I got a question for you, and this may be
a tough one, and that is what does God expect
of you? Have you ever wrestled with that question, what
(01:04):
does God expect of me? You know, it's tough getting
to that answer because you processed through all the expectations
that various people have of you. What is my wife
expect of me? my husband, my kids expect of me,
my job, my church. And before you know it, you're
overwhelmed and maybe even feeling guilty over all the expectations
(01:29):
that are lumped in to your sense of what God
expects of you and what the world's response to that
sense of overwhelm is often is do more, work harder,
try better. Try to fit 25 hours into every day
and eight days into every week. But when is enough? Enough?
(01:54):
If you're exhausted, you're feeling guilty. You're burnt out, frustrated. Uh,
I think today is your day. We're going to talk
about this feeling of being overwhelmed by expectations today with
a wonderful author. The name of the book is you
were never meant to do it all. I'm going to
(02:14):
say that for the people who are sitting in the
back one more time. You were never meant to do
it all. Now, just the title itself brings conviction into
my life because I've been accused of a lot of things,
and I'm guilty of many of them. But one of
the things that I have not been accused of ever,
is being lazy, doing too little. I come from a
(02:37):
family of hard workers and I praise God for that.
And yet balance has been a difficult to find, and
it's something that I've had to process and wrestle with
in particular in this season, as I got daughter going
through a health challenge and some of the things that
I'm trying to manage on a family level, how do
(02:58):
I do it all is the question, well, today we're
going to get some group therapy, if you will, from Kelly.
Kelly is a professor of theological study at Covenant College,
Lookout Mountain, Georgia, where he's taught since 2001. He's a
popular speaker and an award winning author of over 15 books.
(03:19):
He's either written or edited, uh, including. And we're going
to talk about a couple of these You're Only Human
and Embodied Hope, which is a theological meditation on pain
and suffering. Kelly joins me today. Hey, brother, how are you?
S2 (03:34):
Oh, it's it's so good to be with you again, Chris.
Thanks for having me.
S1 (03:38):
Hey, I feel like talking to you about all of
your books every time I have you on, because, uh, really,
all of them are interconnected, woven together. You do a
lot of anthropological work as a theologian. Talk about your
focus area in as a theologian.
S2 (03:58):
Yeah. So a lot of listeners that that word sounds
a little scary and weird anthropology, but it really is
just a fancy way of saying, studying what it means
to be human. And as a theologian, I'm really interested
in what does it mean to be to be human
from a Christian perspective? From a biblical perspective. And, uh,
that's really interesting because it often betrays when you get
(04:19):
into it how much we've reduced it to, you know,
biological realities or something. And we're not less than our biology.
We're not less than the chemistry, uh, not less than
our physicality, but we are more. We are, you know,
we're made for love of God, love of neighbor, and
rightly relating to God's creation. So I'm really interested in
exploring that both as part of God's good creation, but
(04:41):
also as we live in a broken, fallen world.
S1 (04:44):
Yeah, I'm grateful for the the thought that you've given.
And I think that the work that you're doing in
many ways is for such a time as this. On
the one hand, I know your love for historical theology,
and there is a sense of timelessness to many of
these conversations. But in a lot of ways, the stuff
(05:08):
that you're writing is for such a time as this.
And I don't know if this book your you were
never meant to do at all, uh, could have been written, um,
70 years ago, 80 years ago. But it's certainly a
book for this time. Would you agree with that?
S2 (05:25):
Yeah. It's interesting. Sometimes people have asked me similar kind
of things, and I'm like, if I wrote this in
the Middle Ages, no one would read it. No, no
one would care. And probably not even 70 years ago. Uh,
but now we really do, especially if we're living in
the Western world, which is now influencing more and more
of the world. Uh, we we're overwhelmed with possibilities, with expectations. Um,
(05:52):
and part of it is we have to ask, what's
the good life? And I'm particularly interested in not so
much what the world is doing with this, but what
the what the church is.
S1 (06:01):
Well, it's interesting because you come from a reformed background.
I know enough about your background to know that, um,
you you spent time of your life as a Catholic before,
you know, uh, coming to Christ and you've kind of experienced, uh,
some spots and steps in between. But it used to
be that the guilt that Christians really struggled with was
(06:26):
over justification. Am I right before the Lord? It doesn't
seem like that is. I mean, the Puritans really drove
that home. Uh, but it doesn't seem like that's the
guilt of our age. The guilt of our age is.
Am I doing enough? Would you agree with that?
S2 (06:45):
Oh, yeah, I think you're. I mean, you know, you
and I would both say yes, we still. You know,
that guilt can be. How do I stand before God?
But it does tend to look and feel a little
different in our age. And, you know, you kind of
feel it at the end of your day. How how
are you looking? Do you know? You know, this sounds
so abstract. So just, you know, did you spend enough
time with the kids? Did you spend enough time with
(07:07):
a spouse? With a friend? Did you do enough work?
Did you get all your tasks accomplished in the workplace?
Did you do the exercise you needed? Did you read
the books? You know, and you just, you know, whether
it's leisure, home maintenance and there's no area. I mean,
I don't I don't know anyone who kind of at
the end of the day goes, I'm crushing it. Right, right.
I'm great in every area. And so I think what
(07:29):
has concerned.
S1 (07:30):
Can I say something about that real quick? You know,
what's really interesting is that I remember listening to John
Piper's final service and, uh, they, they kind of did
an interview style, uh, with him where one of his
leaders was asking him questions about lessons learned over his
years of ministry. And I'll never forget him being asked
(07:53):
the question, how would you rate yourself on time management?
And he says, uh, I'll give myself a C. And
I think a lot of people were surprised by that.
And his response to your point was, he said, every
day I wake up in the morning and there are
five different really good things that I can do. I
(08:13):
can disciple my family. I can work on a book
of theology. I can work on a sermon for my
church congregation. I can go and share the gospel with
those who have yet to hear about Jesus. I can
go visit people in the hospital, he says. And what
I basically try to do every day is pick up
(08:34):
from one of those. But then when I go to
sleep at night, it's not like those other things go away.
I'm still thinking about all the things I didn't do.
So it was interesting hearing even this prominent leader talk
about the guilt that he felt as a pastor, although
he's very accomplished every single day.
S2 (08:57):
Yeah, it's fascinating. And that's and I think even the
way we inevitably frame this, and that's kind of where
I was going, is this shows how much we've been influenced. Yeah.
The answer when the world feels these pressures is, you
know what you need. You need better time management. You
need to get up a little earlier, get a better
email program, get fit, you know, that kind of thing.
(09:18):
And what's been unnerving is actually that's the answer the
church normally gives. Well, you know what? You need to
get up early or earlier to read your Bible. You
need to be more efficient, more productive. And I don't
think we have a time management problem. I think we
have a a pastoral and theological problem. What if what
if actually God isn't every day disappointed that you didn't
(09:39):
get it all done? What if he never wanted Piper
to do all those things? Yeah, he no one knows
better than God that John Piper Kelly Chris Brooks actually
has a body. God put us in families. God gave
us hungers. God gave us jobs. Yeah. No one knows
better than God our limits. And we treat our limits
(10:01):
as always, something that should be overcome rather than part
of God's good creation.
S1 (10:06):
What if God never wanted you to do all of
the things that you have been carrying around as burdens?
What if you were never meant to do at all?
We have to learn how to live into what Kelly
Kapic calls finitude. We're going to talk about that. We're
going to talk about what it means to embrace our limitations.
(10:29):
But before we go to break, Kelly, I just want
to read one of my favorite CS Lewis quotes. I
think C.S. Lewis is probably the most tweetable leader God
ever created. You know him and MLK. You can quote
them all day long. But here's what C.S. Lewis said.
The devil always sends errors into the world in pairs.
(10:52):
Pairs of opposites. And he always encourages us to spend
a lot of time thinking, which is the worst. You
see why, of course, he relies on your extra dislike
of the one error to draw you gradually into the
opposite one. I bring this up because I think there
(11:13):
are some people who are listening. It's kind of wired
like me. You've been watching all this new material come
out about slowing down, not rushing in, embracing slowness, limitations,
eliminating hurry, all of the popular titles that are out there,
and you are concerned that this is producing a passivity
(11:37):
within the church, a laziness within the body. What I
love about your book is it seems like you've properly
identified Kelly, the two ditches on the one hand, legalism
on the other side of the road. Passivity. And you've
given us a resource to say, how do we avoid both? Now,
(11:59):
when we come back, we're going to unpack this a
little bit more. But friends, I should have mentioned this
is a 40 day devotional, uh, on on the goodness
of being human. And I really want to encourage you.
I don't know what devotional you're going through right now,
and I don't know how much of the devotionals you've
(12:19):
gone through lately has helped you to understand how God
has made you what it means to be human, and
is freeing you from the guilt and the pressure that
comes along with feeling like you have to do it all.
But Kelly has produced such a resource. So as we
go to break, why don't you do me a favor? Uh,
go to our website, Radio.com that's equipped Radio.com, and you
(12:46):
can find out more about Kelly and about the book.
And I know that it will be a blessing to you.
You talk about revolutionizing the way you see God, the
way you see yourself and the way we see the
world around us. And let me just say one thing.
One of the things I've learned as a parent is
(13:08):
that I reproduce these things within my children. So guilt
ridden parents often produce guilt ridden children who think they
have the pressure to do it all. In other words,
if we change us, we're changing a generation that's coming
behind us as well. You stick and stay. We're going
(13:28):
to take a short break and we'll be right back
with more of equip right after this. As followers of Christ,
we know daily time in God's Word matters, but some are.
Distractions can make it hard to stay consistent. Now is
the perfect time to refresh or begin this life giving habit.
I would love to send you the Quiet Time Kickstart
(13:50):
by Rachel Jones. This compact guide starts small and helps
you build a steady, meaningful rhythm in Scripture setting you
up for ongoing success. Request your copy today with a
gift of any amount. To equip, simply call 888644 4144
or visit Equip Radio.com. Hey there friends, welcome back to
(14:18):
equip with Chris Brooks. Kelly is my guest today. We're
talking about the 40 day devotional on the goodness of
being human. You were never meant to do it all.
Find out more at our website, equip radio or go
to our social media pages at Equip Radio. Radio. Kelly
(14:40):
I gave the quote before we went to break from C.S.
Lewis on The Devil Sinning Lies or errors into the
world in pairs. When I read your book, I think
about legalism on the one side, passivity on the other.
Talk a little bit about this. Is this book going
to make me lazy?
S2 (15:00):
No, no, I don't think so. And it is always funny.
That is often a question, but it's often a question
like when I'm speaking at a church on a Friday night,
I always think, you know, lazy people don't go to
church on a Friday night to hear a lecture. I
always have to. It's the hard part to say your
words just so you know, you're like me. But no,
I mean, I'm writing this because I wrestle through it myself,
(15:22):
but maybe a healthy way to to get to your
question and help people think through it is to to
actually explore the idea of humility. So I think it's
very interesting to ask, why should we be humble? And
from if you ask many Christians without thinking about it,
our immediate response is we should be humble because we're sinners. Well,
I believe we're sinners. Uh, that's absolutely true. And because
(15:47):
we're sinners, we should be humble. But that's not the
basis of humility. And so, without a long theological discussion,
if you jump to this question, it's really interesting. Adam
and Eve before they sinned. Should they have been humble? Now,
this is actually going to get to your question. Adam
and Eve, before they sinned, should they have been humble?
And the answer is actually yes, because part of the
(16:08):
goodness of how God made the world is that humans
were made to be dependent on God, dependent on their neighbor,
and dependent on creation, dependent on God, neighbor, and creation.
Now think about that for a second. If someone talks
to me later today and says, hey, you spent some
time with Chris Brooks, what do you think? And I
said to them, you know, Chris seems like a great guy.
(16:29):
I noticed he's really dependent on a lot of people
in our culture. Is the word dependent ever a positive? Right?
It's always negative. So how in the world when fundamental
to Christian discipleship is fostering healthy dependence, how do we
do that in our culture? Because actually this is this
(16:49):
is why it's not passivity or legalism. God. We are
not God. We really are. Actions matter. People need us,
but we need people. We are dependent upon God upon creation,
so that actually fosters joyful interconnection, interdependence, gratitude. Rather than
(17:11):
this idea that I alone am independent. The only thing
I'd add to that. It's very interesting. In the medieval
period theologians talking about the attributes of God, one of
the key attributes of God they called Independencia. God alone
is independent, and all of creation is by necessity dependent.
And that includes us as humans.
S1 (17:30):
Yeah. God is the only non-contingent being. Yeah. All the
rest of us are very much dependent. Um, let's just
talk a little bit about what finitude is. This is
a term that you have. I want to say popularized,
but I think maybe a better word for it is
just helped us to become more aware of, um, not
(17:54):
one that you've created, but one that you really have embraced.
So define it for us. What is what is finitude?
S2 (18:01):
Finitude is an it's an old word. We don't use
it a lot. It just means actually limits. Limits in space, time, knowledge, power.
It's like I can't be everywhere. I can't know everything.
I can't do everything. So finitude means limits. But the
Christian word for it is actually just creature, right? Uh,
it was interesting. One time, um, I was speaking to
(18:22):
a group of high school kids, and this, uh, afterwards
I do Q&A, and I love it. As a teacher,
I don't care about pushback. It makes me happy. And
the student, you know, stood up and he said, I
got three questions I could tell you. Kind of frustrated.
I was talking about finitude. And he said, number one,
does God have limits? And I thought, well, I'm a theologian.
So I kind of want to say, well, he can't sin.
Is that a limit? But I knew that's what he
(18:43):
wasn't asking. So I said, no, God doesn't have limits.
And then he smiled. He said, number two, are we
made in God's image? And then I started to smile.
And then he said, number three. How in the world
can you say we have limits? Now, I'm not telling
you the story to pick on a high school kid,
or he was like a 19 year old. I guess
he graduated.
S1 (19:01):
Those are great questions, by the way.
S2 (19:02):
They're such great questions. But here's the point. How do.
And then the. And the third question, he said, how
can you say we have limits? And then he actually said,
show me the verse. And and I loved I actually
loved that he was wrestling through this. But I'm trying
to think as a, you know, as a teacher, I
was like, how do I as gently as possible say
it's not a verse of the Bible, it's every page
(19:25):
of the Bible. It's what theologians call the creator creature distinction.
God alone has no limits. We bike even though we're
made in his image. We're never made to be infinite.
We're always creatures. And part of what's happened is even
Christians have started to think to be a creature is bad.
No sin is a problem. You being a creature is not.
(19:46):
Sin is a problem. You having a body is not
your mind. Only knowing so much is not sinful. Yeah, sin.
The last thing I'd say is Dietrich Bonhoeffer in the
early 20th century put it this way sin is not
what makes us dependent on God, others in the earth.
Sin is what twists those dependencies or undermines those dependencies.
S1 (20:08):
You know, I think about this quote that you have
in your book by Soren Kierkegaard, and it really, you know,
it really captured my attention when I read it. It
simply says this the results of busyness is that an
individual is very seldom permitted to form a heart.
S2 (20:29):
Mm.
S1 (20:30):
And I thought about myself that when I'm over capacity,
when I'm overloaded, when things that it costs me is thoughtfulness,
I typically try to be, uh, present in the moment, thoughtful, caring.
I think those are some of the qualities that you
have to have if you're going to be an effective pastor.
(20:51):
But yet all of us understand that, man, when we're overloaded,
there are things that you find yourself saying, man, how
did that slip through the cracks? How did I miss that? Right?
How did I drop that ball? Talk about what we
what the cost is to us of not embracing our
(21:12):
our finitude.
S2 (21:14):
Well, I think actually an interesting example is prayer, right?
Because it's like you just talked about being attentive, being present.
You know where our feet are. And I find, you know,
one of the reasons we struggle to pray. And I'll
just say what none of us would admit, or even
to ourselves, but because we think it's a waste of time, right?
(21:37):
And in our culture, we so value productivity and efficiency.
We all know as Christians we should pray. But you're
kind of like, yeah, but I should actually do something
for God, right? And that's what's interesting, is love is
not always against productivity and efficiency, but love is often inefficient. Right.
When you have a baby, new parents often struggle with
(21:59):
this because all of a sudden they have a baby,
especially when it's their first born, and all of a
sudden all the stuff they were able to do is
no longer possible. Well, how? For me, when I'm feeling overstretched,
one of the signs is do I feel comfortable just
being with God? You know, and during times of prayer,
but also being with God throughout my day, even in
the midst of busyness, what does that look like? So
(22:22):
I do think there are signs that we are we
are stretching our humanity in some unfaithful ways.
S1 (22:29):
Well, and I just want to make sure that people
understand how holistic the impact is when we overseas and
ignore our finitude. I mean, it's physical, it's relational, it's spiritual.
You talked about the the pastoral and theological issues that
are here. It is it is pretty pervasive when we
(22:54):
consistently ignore our humanity. Um, let me ask another question
that I think is really important to this conversation. I
am in what I would call a privileged position, being
a leader, um, who has some sense of control over
my schedule, my calendar. I have some sense of freedom
(23:19):
to be able to say I'll do less. I won't
do as many things. What about the person who does
not have that agency? What about the person who feels
like man, I'm not the boss, so I don't get
a chance to say what projects I do or don't do.
You know, um.
S2 (23:38):
Such a good question.
S1 (23:39):
Yeah. What do you say to that person?
S2 (23:41):
Yeah, I do think some of what's happened both in
Christian and non-Christian literature on this stuff is it's become
kind of smuggled in upper class motifs. Right. And, and
the kind of privilege that you're talking about when, you know.
So I do think that's one way to question these things.
And it's a good way for me to say when
(24:03):
I'm talking about our limits, I'm not talking about a
bourgeois life. Right. And I'm actually not just talking about
paid employment. Um, so really, this this should be relevant
whether you're doing construction or, you know, you're working on,
you know, high flying bank or, you know, whatever it is,
(24:24):
your stay at home parent. Uh, it's got to relate
to all of it. And so what I'm really interested
in is, um, how God made us and what does
that look like? So let's take take one example. Sleep.
We all actually need to sleep no matter what kind
of employment you have. Um, but we've now made sleep
(24:45):
like you should apologize for needing to sleep.
S1 (24:48):
Yeah, yeah.
S2 (24:48):
Yeah, yeah. But biblically, there's a theology of sleep. And
the basic biblical idea is we can sleep because God
never does. And so every night, it is an act
of faith that you and I go, God, there is
more than I could have done that I can't do today.
Whether it's for my children, my coworkers, my whatever. Um,
(25:10):
and so in faith, I'm trusting you. And if you're
on the if you're in a war and you're on
the front lines and you have a friend there, you
can sleep. But when no one has your back, you
can't sleep. Christians can sleep because God never sleeps.
S1 (25:22):
All right. When we get into the next segment, Kelly,
I gotta talk to you from the perspective of parenting,
what do you say to the mom who's listening to
us with three kids under the age of five trying
to manage it all, um, maybe even having to work
and the pressures or what about the person who's in
(25:44):
the season of sickness and demands? How does that play
into this conversation? Kelly has put together a wonderful 40
day journey that I think will lead to freedom. Find
out more at our website. Equip radio.org will be right back.
(26:18):
Welcome back to equip with Chris Brooks. What if you
were never meant to do it all? Have you ever
wrestled with guilt and shame that comes over your heart
and soul when you can't do everything that's expected of you? Uh,
have you ever processed through this sense of anxiety that
(26:40):
comes because you don't feel like there's enough hours in
a day, enough days in the week when your schedule
is overloaded, when you feel like you're working hard and
you're constantly exhausted, but you're still coming up short. Well,
if you've ever felt any of these things, know that
you are not alone. This is a problem that plagues
(27:01):
all of us, all of us in this day and age.
And I think this is why my brother Kelly. His
book is so important and so timely. I want you
to get a copy of it. You were never meant
to do it all. It's a 40 day devotional on
the goodness of being human. It's something that I think
we need each day is, um, is written in a
(27:24):
way that you can just carve out some time, some
space to really sit in this process through it and
allow your soul to meditate on the truth of God,
embracing your own limitations and living into his grace. Find
out more at our website. Equip radio.org that's equip radio.org. Kelly.
(27:46):
When I was introducing you at the beginning of this conversation,
I said, I really wish that we could talk about
each of your books and we can't do that, but
they are certainly each worth reading. But I do want
to ask a question of how does your never you
were never meant to do it all. How does it
relate to your only human? Um, I love your book,
(28:09):
You're Only Human and then having a daughter right now
who's going through a cancer journey, you're you're writing on
embodied hope as well. So help me to understand how
maybe embodied hope helped to shape your thinking around finitude
and how this book relates to your only human. And
(28:30):
do all of it in five minutes or less.
S2 (28:33):
Yeah, thanks. Thanks for asking that, Chris. It's very thoughtful. Yeah, actually,
in some ways the books are written backwards. The embodied
hope is about pain and suffering, and the short version
is my wife had cancer, as you know, in 2008.
A year later declared cancer free. But since 2010, to
this day, every day she deals with pain and fatigue.
(28:53):
And if you saw her, you wouldn't. You wouldn't notice, um,
which is a gift, but it's still very much part
of our lives. And so working through that, with her encouragement,
I wrote, embodied Hope and really learned to value the
importance of our bodies and the importance of lament. And
I think until I was able to say, God is good,
(29:14):
but this world is broken and everything isn't the way
God intended. And that's why the Psalms have 35 to 40%
of them are about laments. That became very important because
my wife and I, like you, described yourself, were like,
we're we're a people who love to get stuff done.
We're accomplished that kind of thing. And we just kept
having to cut out, cut out, cut out. Um, and,
(29:36):
and then with chronic pain, it just became it became more.
And so all of a sudden you realize, wait, what
does faithfulness look like for us? That's been the really
important question. And so after wrestling through suffering, I think
I was finally ready to say, here's the goodness of
being a creature, and that even if there were no
sin or even suffering, we have such unrealistic expectations. This
(29:59):
is distorting my understanding of who I am, who God is,
and what that looks like. And so part of the
journey for me has been I take sin very seriously
as a theologian. And my tradition, reformed tradition is emphasizes sin.
But sometimes you can take something that's true and make
it the only thing and then undermine other things. And
(30:19):
part of God. The Bible emphasizes the goodness of creation,
the goodness of our bodies. And so it's trying to
navigate the good gifts God has given, but also being
honest about this broken and fallen world and trying to
think through what faithfulness looks like. And until we do that,
then people with disabilities, people who are sick, people who
(30:41):
are just overwhelmed, they just feel like they're letting God
down constantly. But what if what if God is actually
very compassionate and kind and has a very different vision
of what faithfulness looks like?
S1 (30:54):
You know, I just want to say and just pause
and and say thank you to your wife and kids
for allowing you to really be transparent, vulnerable, to write
books like embodied Hope. Uh, because it really it really is, um,
a gift to the body of Christ. And I also
think that it can only be done with the permission
(31:17):
of your family. Yeah. Uh, to, uh, to to grant that, uh,
green light so that others can be helped and benefited
from the real pain that's faced every day. So I
bring that up just to say Kelly doesn't write from
a posture or position of ignorance to pain or callousness
to difficulty. He recognizes that. And that's woven through every
(31:42):
day of this this beautiful, uh, well designed devotional. I
do want to ask a question, though, about, um, what
your hope is. What is your hope for those who will, uh,
pick it up and read this book?
S2 (31:58):
You know, honestly, some of it is joy. Um, when
you start to realize I don't have to compete with everyone.
I can celebrate others and including in church whenever there
are needs, is your immediate default like mine? Like, oh,
there's a need. I have to meet it. Would that
actually can be a problem? Um, you know, most of
(32:21):
us know 15, 20% of the church does most of
the work. Well, actually, when you start to go, no,
I'm part of this body. And I was never meant
to do it all, but but the whole it takes
the whole church to be the one body of Christ.
So that means when missionaries come to town, rather than
like them apologizing for raising money, we're like, I was
so thankful you're doing it because I can't. When someone's
(32:42):
evangelizing or doing youth ministry and you can't, you're like,
that's praise God. When someone is has a kind of
job that's making a lot of money to help support,
praise God. In other words, there's something joyful when we
stop competing with everyone and start viewing one another as
gifts from God. And when we stop thinking God is
just a taskmaster, but instead a compassionate, knowing Heavenly Father
(33:05):
who begins a good work in us, he's going to
see it to completion, and he is not constantly frustrated
or irritated by us. He picks us up, keeps growing
us in grace and truth. It's a very different vision
that I think is hopeful. And if the Christian life
just feels heavy and burdensome, that's a sign we've misunderstood
God in the gospel.
S1 (33:25):
All right. Now, you just brought up a really important question.
What are the signs? You know, I just talked about earlier.
One of the signs that are is a telltale sign
in my my life that I'm doing too much is
I'm not able to really be thoughtful like I want
to be. Um, as as you as I quoted your
(33:46):
your quote of Soren Kierkegaard not able to, uh, develop
the heart that I want to have towards others. What
are other signs that you look for in your life
that are telltale signs that. Kelly, you're doing too much?
S2 (34:02):
Yeah, it's a great question. Um, for me, there are
things like, uh prayerlessness. Um, exhaustion. Now, before I say more,
I do want to say for me and maybe for listeners,
a very simple way to think through this that I
think is helpful to, again, avoid extremes is farmers. There
are times, including in my life, like with a book launch,
(34:25):
right where it's harvest time and you and like farmers
will put in 12 14 hour days sometimes. Yeah. And
so I am not I'm not I don't have this
romanticized view of every person should work this many hours,
every day and sleep this long. No no, no. But
so working long days is not sinful or bad. The
problem is, when you try and make every day harvest day,
(34:46):
then all of a sudden our bodies start to give out,
our relationships start to give out. So for me. Yeah.
Am I, you know, we sing. I want to be
where my feet are. Well, when I'm with people. But
my mind is somewhere else. That's another sign. Right. When
I'm clinging to things tightly or self-absorbed or. Or just
one more is when I find I'm bitter or easily
(35:09):
irritated because people aren't doing their share. That tends to
mean I'm taking on more than I should myself.
S1 (35:16):
Yeah, you talked about being wired to, um, solve a
problem when you see it, to automatically take up a concern, uh,
when nobody else is stepping into that. That's a difficult thing.
I mean, that is a real reality for people who
have compassion, empathy. Those are really good qualities. But those
(35:38):
have to be counterbalanced because the enemy can leverage those
against us as well. And we can look up and
find that we are bitter, angry and exhausted. It's because
maybe we're taking on more of the burden than what
God told us to. Living into his grace, how do
we do it? How do we make this practical or
(36:01):
in business terms, operationalize what Kelly is talking about. We'll
discuss that and much more on the other side of
this break. I really wish that I could get this
book into the hands of pastors and parents and business
people and college students. I can't do that without your help.
So what you need to do is call. If God
(36:23):
has been kind of pricking at your heart through this conversation,
you're saying, Chris, I need it. Call (888)Â 644-4144 or go
to equip radio.org. We'll be right back. Each day on equip,
we confront the cultural challenges of our time, offering biblical
(36:45):
truth with discernment and confidence in God's plans and purposes.
Your support as an Equipper helps us reach more people
with God's truth, and you'll receive exclusive monthly resources and
updates to encourage your spiritual life. Become an Equipper today
and partner with us in this vital ministry. Call 888644
(37:06):
4144 or go online to equip radio. Welcome back to
equip with Chris Brooks. We love, love, love to have
your support for the program. If it's been a blessing
to you, you've been encouraged by the ministry, and you
(37:28):
want to help us to reach more people with the
good news of God's grace. Make sure your neighbors know
that Jesus saves and that grace has come because Christ
has come. Why don't you give us a call? You
can learn how to partner with us by dialing the
number 888644 4144. That's 888644 4144. Or find out more
(37:51):
at Equip Radio.com. Kelly is my guest today. We're talking
about the 40 day devotional that he's put out, which
is really a complement to the book You're Only human.
If you've not read that, I would encourage you to
read that. But the 40 day devotional is you were
never meant to do it all. And I really think
(38:12):
this is going to be a revolutionary resource in your life.
So I really want to encourage you to pick it up.
All right. Kelly, I think I know the source of
the problem. The source of the problem has to be
all the hours we spend scrolling the internet, swiping through
social media. Is that the source of the problem?
S2 (38:35):
That I think you know, and that is what I
originally started my research thought was the source of the problem.
And now I've become a little skeptical of that. I,
I still think these are obviously issues, but rather than
seeing them as the source of the problem, I now
think they're a sign of a deeper malady. In other words,
I think we should ask not just why are kids
(38:55):
spent so much time scrolling and binging Netflix, but why
do we? And I think part of it is because, yeah,
if we have even a moment of silence waiting in
the grocery store line or, or whatever, if we don't
distract ourselves, we instantly think of all the things that
we should do and it crushes us. So all of
(39:16):
us are using distraction as a way to navigate this,
this endless demand kind of situation which only fosters the problem.
S1 (39:26):
So the so the escapism you're saying is a symptom.
S2 (39:30):
Exactly. And then it and then it's both a symptom
and feeds the problem.
S1 (39:35):
Yeah. And it perpetuates the problem. Um, Kelly, let's just, uh,
kind of talk about who you wrote this for. I just,
before we went to break, named off 4 or 5
categories of people. Uh, maybe the simplest answer is that
you wrote this for about 8 billion people on the planet.
But let's narrow it a little bit. When you're when
(39:59):
you're writing, I know for me, when I'm thinking about
a sermon or a radio program, I have certain people
in mind. What particular audiences stood out to you?
S2 (40:10):
It's such a good question. Um, honestly, the first was myself. Uh,
this was me working through things myself because it's such
a struggle. Um, and then as a college professor, my students,
you know, I speak at colleges around the country, and
I have not been to a single one that can
keep up with the mental health and anxiety issues. And
this is all totally related to that. Um, but also
(40:33):
I have for me, the test case for Christian spirituality
is does this make sense to a materially poor person?
And does this make sense to a, um, a mom
who has a newborn at home?
S1 (40:45):
Yeah.
S2 (40:46):
Because I think we romanticize these things. So I'm really
interested in theology and spirituality. That's earthy, that's honoring to God,
and that's that's not naive. And so that's me trying
to work through some of these things.
S1 (40:58):
Yeah. Well, I think, uh, there's a comedian. His name
is Michael Junior. You may be familiar with him, but, uh, he,
he has this talk that he does. Yeah. He's hilarious.
He has this talk that he does at all of
his comedy shows. It says there are two types of
people in the world. Those who struggle with giving and
those who struggle with receiving. And God is trying to
(41:21):
challenge each of us at the area of our struggle.
And so the way he kind of does this thought
experiment is he sets up his resource table in a
way where you can come to the resource table and
just give and not take anything with you. Or you
can come to the resource table and take and not
(41:42):
give anything at all. And he invites people to do
it based off of wherever their struggle is. If you
struggle with receiving, just go to resource table and just
take something and don't leave anything. And if you struggle
with giving, just go and give and don't take anything,
you know. And I think in a lot of ways,
this is what I feel when I read your book. Like,
(42:04):
you do have to identify where you're at in this
is my struggle. Uh, the legalism or passivity? Where am
I at with this? And let me realize that the
goal of all of this is communion with God, communion
with others, and to be at a place where I'm
(42:25):
able to sense God leading in grace. And I guess
that's where I want to maybe land this plane. How
would you define success for the single mom, for the
materially poor person, for the person who's maybe in leadership,
what would you say is success in this?
S2 (42:45):
The short version would be walking in the fear of
the Lord. Um, the fear of the Lord. That ancient phrase.
But that ancient phrase is not normally about being scared
of God. It's actually it's the person who's lift their
gaze from their belly button to the horizon, and they
live in light of God's presence, his provision, his kindness. Um,
(43:06):
and so living in the in the fear of the
Lord is really in contemporary language. It's learning to be
present with God. And that doesn't just mean silent alone.
It can mean walking across campus. And just as you
see people in your heart, just pray for them or
thanking God for them. Um, or you're in a grocery
store and you see something, you think, God, will you
minister to that person? Just being present with God and
(43:29):
and being present with God helps us to learn to
be present with other people. Um, it's very hard to
be present with other people when we're not present with God.
Those two are interrelated.
S1 (43:41):
Alright, I just wrote this down. Lifting your eyes from
your navel to the horizon. I don't know if I've
ever heard that before, brother.
S2 (43:50):
That's my definition of the fear of the Lord, right?
Starting to see God in all of it.
S1 (43:55):
That gives navel gazing a whole new definition. And that
is so rich and so good. You know, living my
life in light of the the reality of God corondao,
you know, living in the face of the Lord. And, uh, man,
(44:15):
you have given us a rich resource that I really
want to encourage everyone to get a hold of. And
so as as I joke with Kelly, hey, uh, 8
billion people could buy this and it would be great. Um,
but I really want to speak to pastors. I know
Kelly really loves the body of Christ, has a rich ecclesiology,
(44:38):
and wants to see the church healthy again. And so
I would encourage pastors, but also many of you are
business leaders in marketplace roles. This would be great for you.
I have a huge heart for college university young adults
to get Ahold of this. And yes, the mom who's
(44:59):
at home, the parent who is in a tough season
of parenting. Maybe because, like me, you got five kids
all demanding at different stages, or maybe you're going through
an acute season of intensity. But get this so that
you don't lose the joy of communion with God and
(45:19):
with others.
S2 (45:20):
Yeah. And just to say real quick, one of the
things we found is by doing doing it alone, but
then in small groups like meet once a week for
the 40 days, that all of a sudden does something
because it connects God and neighbor together as you slowly
think through these things.
S1 (45:34):
Brother, it's always a joy. You have a green light
to stop by quip at any time you want. Give
us a shout out from Lookout Mountain, brother. I appreciate
the work you're doing over at Covenant College and God
bless you and your family. Father, we just pray for Kelly.
We pray for his bride. We pray for the kids, Lord,
(45:57):
that you would pour out grace upon grace and allow
him to live into the sweet communion that's available to
all of us, in Jesus name. Amen.
S2 (46:09):
Amen. Thank you so much, brother. That meant a lot.
S1 (46:12):
God bless you, brother. Listen, friends, I want to encourage you.
You can get your copy, go to our website Radio.com
that's equip Radio.com. And you know, if, uh, throughout this conversation,
you've been saying Amen. Nodding your head or even saying ouch.
(46:33):
If you did any of those three things, this is
for you. Your you were never meant to do it all.
A 40 day devotional on the goodness of being human.
Go to our website. And I can't wait till we're
together again next time. So until then, remember equip with
(46:54):
Chris Brooks is the production of Moody Radio, a ministry
of Moody Bible Institute.
Well. Hey there friends, welcome to another exciting edition of
equip with Chris Brooks! I am so thrilled that you've
joined us today. Do me a favor. Strap on your
seat belt. We're going to navigate through the contours of culture,
as always, with the lens of the biblical worldview on.
But before we do that, let me remind you, this
is the day that the Lord has made. He has
(00:40):
given it as a gift so that you and I
can rejoice and be glad in it. So let's do
just that. Let's follow the words of the Apostle Paul.
Let's rejoice in the Lord always. And again I say, rejoice. Well,
I got a question for you, and this may be
a tough one, and that is what does God expect
of you? Have you ever wrestled with that question, what
(01:04):
does God expect of me? You know, it's tough getting
to that answer because you processed through all the expectations
that various people have of you. What is my wife
expect of me? my husband, my kids expect of me,
my job, my church. And before you know it, you're
overwhelmed and maybe even feeling guilty over all the expectations
(01:29):
that are lumped in to your sense of what God
expects of you and what the world's response to that
sense of overwhelm is often is do more, work harder,
try better. Try to fit 25 hours into every day
and eight days into every week. But when is enough? Enough?
(01:54):
If you're exhausted, you're feeling guilty. You're burnt out, frustrated. Uh,
I think today is your day. We're going to talk
about this feeling of being overwhelmed by expectations today with
a wonderful author. The name of the book is you
were never meant to do it all. I'm going to
(02:14):
say that for the people who are sitting in the
back one more time. You were never meant to do
it all. Now, just the title itself brings conviction into
my life because I've been accused of a lot of things,
and I'm guilty of many of them. But one of
the things that I have not been accused of ever,
is being lazy, doing too little. I come from a
(02:37):
family of hard workers and I praise God for that.
And yet balance has been a difficult to find, and
it's something that I've had to process and wrestle with
in particular in this season, as I got daughter going
through a health challenge and some of the things that
I'm trying to manage on a family level, how do
(02:58):
I do it all is the question, well, today we're
going to get some group therapy, if you will, from Kelly.
Kelly is a professor of theological study at Covenant College,
Lookout Mountain, Georgia, where he's taught since 2001. He's a
popular speaker and an award winning author of over 15 books.
(03:19):
He's either written or edited, uh, including. And we're going
to talk about a couple of these You're Only Human
and Embodied Hope, which is a theological meditation on pain
and suffering. Kelly joins me today. Hey, brother, how are you?
S2 (03:34):
Oh, it's it's so good to be with you again, Chris.
Thanks for having me.
S1 (03:38):
Hey, I feel like talking to you about all of
your books every time I have you on, because, uh, really,
all of them are interconnected, woven together. You do a
lot of anthropological work as a theologian. Talk about your
focus area in as a theologian.
S2 (03:58):
Yeah. So a lot of listeners that that word sounds
a little scary and weird anthropology, but it really is
just a fancy way of saying, studying what it means
to be human. And as a theologian, I'm really interested
in what does it mean to be to be human
from a Christian perspective? From a biblical perspective. And, uh,
that's really interesting because it often betrays when you get
(04:19):
into it how much we've reduced it to, you know,
biological realities or something. And we're not less than our biology.
We're not less than the chemistry, uh, not less than
our physicality, but we are more. We are, you know,
we're made for love of God, love of neighbor, and
rightly relating to God's creation. So I'm really interested in
exploring that both as part of God's good creation, but
(04:41):
also as we live in a broken, fallen world.
S1 (04:44):
Yeah, I'm grateful for the the thought that you've given.
And I think that the work that you're doing in
many ways is for such a time as this. On
the one hand, I know your love for historical theology,
and there is a sense of timelessness to many of
these conversations. But in a lot of ways, the stuff
(05:08):
that you're writing is for such a time as this.
And I don't know if this book your you were
never meant to do at all, uh, could have been written, um,
70 years ago, 80 years ago. But it's certainly a
book for this time. Would you agree with that?
S2 (05:25):
Yeah. It's interesting. Sometimes people have asked me similar kind
of things, and I'm like, if I wrote this in
the Middle Ages, no one would read it. No, no
one would care. And probably not even 70 years ago. Uh,
but now we really do, especially if we're living in
the Western world, which is now influencing more and more
of the world. Uh, we we're overwhelmed with possibilities, with expectations. Um,
(05:52):
and part of it is we have to ask, what's
the good life? And I'm particularly interested in not so
much what the world is doing with this, but what
the what the church is.
S1 (06:01):
Well, it's interesting because you come from a reformed background.
I know enough about your background to know that, um,
you you spent time of your life as a Catholic before,
you know, uh, coming to Christ and you've kind of experienced, uh,
some spots and steps in between. But it used to
be that the guilt that Christians really struggled with was
(06:26):
over justification. Am I right before the Lord? It doesn't
seem like that is. I mean, the Puritans really drove
that home. Uh, but it doesn't seem like that's the
guilt of our age. The guilt of our age is.
Am I doing enough? Would you agree with that?
S2 (06:45):
Oh, yeah, I think you're. I mean, you know, you
and I would both say yes, we still. You know,
that guilt can be. How do I stand before God?
But it does tend to look and feel a little
different in our age. And, you know, you kind of
feel it at the end of your day. How how
are you looking? Do you know? You know, this sounds
so abstract. So just, you know, did you spend enough
time with the kids? Did you spend enough time with
(07:07):
a spouse? With a friend? Did you do enough work?
Did you get all your tasks accomplished in the workplace?
Did you do the exercise you needed? Did you read
the books? You know, and you just, you know, whether
it's leisure, home maintenance and there's no area. I mean,
I don't I don't know anyone who kind of at
the end of the day goes, I'm crushing it. Right, right.
I'm great in every area. And so I think what
(07:29):
has concerned.
S1 (07:30):
Can I say something about that real quick? You know,
what's really interesting is that I remember listening to John
Piper's final service and, uh, they, they kind of did
an interview style, uh, with him where one of his
leaders was asking him questions about lessons learned over his
years of ministry. And I'll never forget him being asked
(07:53):
the question, how would you rate yourself on time management?
And he says, uh, I'll give myself a C. And
I think a lot of people were surprised by that.
And his response to your point was, he said, every
day I wake up in the morning and there are
five different really good things that I can do. I
(08:13):
can disciple my family. I can work on a book
of theology. I can work on a sermon for my
church congregation. I can go and share the gospel with
those who have yet to hear about Jesus. I can
go visit people in the hospital, he says. And what
I basically try to do every day is pick up
(08:34):
from one of those. But then when I go to
sleep at night, it's not like those other things go away.
I'm still thinking about all the things I didn't do.
So it was interesting hearing even this prominent leader talk
about the guilt that he felt as a pastor, although
he's very accomplished every single day.
S2 (08:57):
Yeah, it's fascinating. And that's and I think even the
way we inevitably frame this, and that's kind of where
I was going, is this shows how much we've been influenced. Yeah.
The answer when the world feels these pressures is, you
know what you need. You need better time management. You
need to get up a little earlier, get a better
email program, get fit, you know, that kind of thing.
(09:18):
And what's been unnerving is actually that's the answer the
church normally gives. Well, you know what? You need to
get up early or earlier to read your Bible. You
need to be more efficient, more productive. And I don't
think we have a time management problem. I think we
have a a pastoral and theological problem. What if what
if actually God isn't every day disappointed that you didn't
(09:39):
get it all done? What if he never wanted Piper
to do all those things? Yeah, he no one knows
better than God that John Piper Kelly Chris Brooks actually
has a body. God put us in families. God gave
us hungers. God gave us jobs. Yeah. No one knows
better than God our limits. And we treat our limits
(10:01):
as always, something that should be overcome rather than part
of God's good creation.
S1 (10:06):
What if God never wanted you to do all of
the things that you have been carrying around as burdens?
What if you were never meant to do at all?
We have to learn how to live into what Kelly
Kapic calls finitude. We're going to talk about that. We're
going to talk about what it means to embrace our limitations.
(10:29):
But before we go to break, Kelly, I just want
to read one of my favorite CS Lewis quotes. I
think C.S. Lewis is probably the most tweetable leader God
ever created. You know him and MLK. You can quote
them all day long. But here's what C.S. Lewis said.
The devil always sends errors into the world in pairs.
(10:52):
Pairs of opposites. And he always encourages us to spend
a lot of time thinking, which is the worst. You
see why, of course, he relies on your extra dislike
of the one error to draw you gradually into the
opposite one. I bring this up because I think there
(11:13):
are some people who are listening. It's kind of wired
like me. You've been watching all this new material come
out about slowing down, not rushing in, embracing slowness, limitations,
eliminating hurry, all of the popular titles that are out there,
and you are concerned that this is producing a passivity
(11:37):
within the church, a laziness within the body. What I
love about your book is it seems like you've properly
identified Kelly, the two ditches on the one hand, legalism
on the other side of the road. Passivity. And you've
given us a resource to say, how do we avoid both? Now,
(11:59):
when we come back, we're going to unpack this a
little bit more. But friends, I should have mentioned this
is a 40 day devotional, uh, on on the goodness
of being human. And I really want to encourage you.
I don't know what devotional you're going through right now,
and I don't know how much of the devotionals you've
(12:19):
gone through lately has helped you to understand how God
has made you what it means to be human, and
is freeing you from the guilt and the pressure that
comes along with feeling like you have to do it all.
But Kelly has produced such a resource. So as we
go to break, why don't you do me a favor? Uh,
go to our website, Radio.com that's equipped Radio.com, and you
(12:46):
can find out more about Kelly and about the book.
And I know that it will be a blessing to you.
You talk about revolutionizing the way you see God, the
way you see yourself and the way we see the
world around us. And let me just say one thing.
One of the things I've learned as a parent is
(13:08):
that I reproduce these things within my children. So guilt
ridden parents often produce guilt ridden children who think they
have the pressure to do it all. In other words,
if we change us, we're changing a generation that's coming
behind us as well. You stick and stay. We're going
(13:28):
to take a short break and we'll be right back
with more of equip right after this. As followers of Christ,
we know daily time in God's Word matters, but some are.
Distractions can make it hard to stay consistent. Now is
the perfect time to refresh or begin this life giving habit.
I would love to send you the Quiet Time Kickstart
(13:50):
by Rachel Jones. This compact guide starts small and helps
you build a steady, meaningful rhythm in Scripture setting you
up for ongoing success. Request your copy today with a
gift of any amount. To equip, simply call 888644 4144
or visit Equip Radio.com. Hey there friends, welcome back to
(14:18):
equip with Chris Brooks. Kelly is my guest today. We're
talking about the 40 day devotional on the goodness of
being human. You were never meant to do it all.
Find out more at our website, equip radio or go
to our social media pages at Equip Radio. Radio. Kelly
(14:40):
I gave the quote before we went to break from C.S.
Lewis on The Devil Sinning Lies or errors into the
world in pairs. When I read your book, I think
about legalism on the one side, passivity on the other.
Talk a little bit about this. Is this book going
to make me lazy?
S2 (15:00):
No, no, I don't think so. And it is always funny.
That is often a question, but it's often a question
like when I'm speaking at a church on a Friday night,
I always think, you know, lazy people don't go to
church on a Friday night to hear a lecture. I
always have to. It's the hard part to say your
words just so you know, you're like me. But no,
I mean, I'm writing this because I wrestle through it myself,
(15:22):
but maybe a healthy way to to get to your
question and help people think through it is to to
actually explore the idea of humility. So I think it's
very interesting to ask, why should we be humble? And
from if you ask many Christians without thinking about it,
our immediate response is we should be humble because we're sinners. Well,
I believe we're sinners. Uh, that's absolutely true. And because
(15:47):
we're sinners, we should be humble. But that's not the
basis of humility. And so, without a long theological discussion,
if you jump to this question, it's really interesting. Adam
and Eve before they sinned. Should they have been humble? Now,
this is actually going to get to your question. Adam
and Eve, before they sinned, should they have been humble?
And the answer is actually yes, because part of the
(16:08):
goodness of how God made the world is that humans
were made to be dependent on God, dependent on their neighbor,
and dependent on creation, dependent on God, neighbor, and creation.
Now think about that for a second. If someone talks
to me later today and says, hey, you spent some
time with Chris Brooks, what do you think? And I
said to them, you know, Chris seems like a great guy.
(16:29):
I noticed he's really dependent on a lot of people
in our culture. Is the word dependent ever a positive? Right?
It's always negative. So how in the world when fundamental
to Christian discipleship is fostering healthy dependence, how do we
do that in our culture? Because actually this is this
(16:49):
is why it's not passivity or legalism. God. We are
not God. We really are. Actions matter. People need us,
but we need people. We are dependent upon God upon creation,
so that actually fosters joyful interconnection, interdependence, gratitude. Rather than
(17:11):
this idea that I alone am independent. The only thing
I'd add to that. It's very interesting. In the medieval
period theologians talking about the attributes of God, one of
the key attributes of God they called Independencia. God alone
is independent, and all of creation is by necessity dependent.
And that includes us as humans.
S1 (17:30):
Yeah. God is the only non-contingent being. Yeah. All the
rest of us are very much dependent. Um, let's just
talk a little bit about what finitude is. This is
a term that you have. I want to say popularized,
but I think maybe a better word for it is
just helped us to become more aware of, um, not
(17:54):
one that you've created, but one that you really have embraced.
So define it for us. What is what is finitude?
S2 (18:01):
Finitude is an it's an old word. We don't use
it a lot. It just means actually limits. Limits in space, time, knowledge, power.
It's like I can't be everywhere. I can't know everything.
I can't do everything. So finitude means limits. But the
Christian word for it is actually just creature, right? Uh,
it was interesting. One time, um, I was speaking to
(18:22):
a group of high school kids, and this, uh, afterwards
I do Q&A, and I love it. As a teacher,
I don't care about pushback. It makes me happy. And
the student, you know, stood up and he said, I
got three questions I could tell you. Kind of frustrated.
I was talking about finitude. And he said, number one,
does God have limits? And I thought, well, I'm a theologian.
So I kind of want to say, well, he can't sin.
Is that a limit? But I knew that's what he
(18:43):
wasn't asking. So I said, no, God doesn't have limits.
And then he smiled. He said, number two, are we
made in God's image? And then I started to smile.
And then he said, number three. How in the world
can you say we have limits? Now, I'm not telling
you the story to pick on a high school kid,
or he was like a 19 year old. I guess
he graduated.
S1 (19:01):
Those are great questions, by the way.
S2 (19:02):
They're such great questions. But here's the point. How do.
And then the. And the third question, he said, how
can you say we have limits? And then he actually said,
show me the verse. And and I loved I actually
loved that he was wrestling through this. But I'm trying
to think as a, you know, as a teacher, I
was like, how do I as gently as possible say
it's not a verse of the Bible, it's every page
(19:25):
of the Bible. It's what theologians call the creator creature distinction.
God alone has no limits. We bike even though we're
made in his image. We're never made to be infinite.
We're always creatures. And part of what's happened is even
Christians have started to think to be a creature is bad.
No sin is a problem. You being a creature is not.
(19:46):
Sin is a problem. You having a body is not
your mind. Only knowing so much is not sinful. Yeah, sin.
The last thing I'd say is Dietrich Bonhoeffer in the
early 20th century put it this way sin is not
what makes us dependent on God, others in the earth.
Sin is what twists those dependencies or undermines those dependencies.
S1 (20:08):
You know, I think about this quote that you have
in your book by Soren Kierkegaard, and it really, you know,
it really captured my attention when I read it. It
simply says this the results of busyness is that an
individual is very seldom permitted to form a heart.
S2 (20:29):
Mm.
S1 (20:30):
And I thought about myself that when I'm over capacity,
when I'm overloaded, when things that it costs me is thoughtfulness,
I typically try to be, uh, present in the moment, thoughtful, caring.
I think those are some of the qualities that you
have to have if you're going to be an effective pastor.
(20:51):
But yet all of us understand that, man, when we're overloaded,
there are things that you find yourself saying, man, how
did that slip through the cracks? How did I miss that? Right?
How did I drop that ball? Talk about what we
what the cost is to us of not embracing our
(21:12):
our finitude.
S2 (21:14):
Well, I think actually an interesting example is prayer, right?
Because it's like you just talked about being attentive, being present.
You know where our feet are. And I find, you know,
one of the reasons we struggle to pray. And I'll
just say what none of us would admit, or even
to ourselves, but because we think it's a waste of time, right?
(21:37):
And in our culture, we so value productivity and efficiency.
We all know as Christians we should pray. But you're
kind of like, yeah, but I should actually do something
for God, right? And that's what's interesting, is love is
not always against productivity and efficiency, but love is often inefficient. Right.
When you have a baby, new parents often struggle with
(21:59):
this because all of a sudden they have a baby,
especially when it's their first born, and all of a
sudden all the stuff they were able to do is
no longer possible. Well, how? For me, when I'm feeling overstretched,
one of the signs is do I feel comfortable just
being with God? You know, and during times of prayer,
but also being with God throughout my day, even in
the midst of busyness, what does that look like? So
(22:22):
I do think there are signs that we are we
are stretching our humanity in some unfaithful ways.
S1 (22:29):
Well, and I just want to make sure that people
understand how holistic the impact is when we overseas and
ignore our finitude. I mean, it's physical, it's relational, it's spiritual.
You talked about the the pastoral and theological issues that
are here. It is it is pretty pervasive when we
(22:54):
consistently ignore our humanity. Um, let me ask another question
that I think is really important to this conversation. I
am in what I would call a privileged position, being
a leader, um, who has some sense of control over
my schedule, my calendar. I have some sense of freedom
(23:19):
to be able to say I'll do less. I won't
do as many things. What about the person who does
not have that agency? What about the person who feels
like man, I'm not the boss, so I don't get
a chance to say what projects I do or don't do.
You know, um.
S2 (23:38):
Such a good question.
S1 (23:39):
Yeah. What do you say to that person?
S2 (23:41):
Yeah, I do think some of what's happened both in
Christian and non-Christian literature on this stuff is it's become
kind of smuggled in upper class motifs. Right. And, and
the kind of privilege that you're talking about when, you know.
So I do think that's one way to question these things.
And it's a good way for me to say when
(24:03):
I'm talking about our limits, I'm not talking about a
bourgeois life. Right. And I'm actually not just talking about
paid employment. Um, so really, this this should be relevant
whether you're doing construction or, you know, you're working on,
you know, high flying bank or, you know, whatever it is,
(24:24):
your stay at home parent. Uh, it's got to relate
to all of it. And so what I'm really interested
in is, um, how God made us and what does
that look like? So let's take take one example. Sleep.
We all actually need to sleep no matter what kind
of employment you have. Um, but we've now made sleep
(24:45):
like you should apologize for needing to sleep.
S1 (24:48):
Yeah, yeah.
S2 (24:48):
Yeah, yeah. But biblically, there's a theology of sleep. And
the basic biblical idea is we can sleep because God
never does. And so every night, it is an act
of faith that you and I go, God, there is
more than I could have done that I can't do today.
Whether it's for my children, my coworkers, my whatever. Um,
(25:10):
and so in faith, I'm trusting you. And if you're
on the if you're in a war and you're on
the front lines and you have a friend there, you
can sleep. But when no one has your back, you
can't sleep. Christians can sleep because God never sleeps.
S1 (25:22):
All right. When we get into the next segment, Kelly,
I gotta talk to you from the perspective of parenting,
what do you say to the mom who's listening to
us with three kids under the age of five trying
to manage it all, um, maybe even having to work
and the pressures or what about the person who's in
(25:44):
the season of sickness and demands? How does that play
into this conversation? Kelly has put together a wonderful 40
day journey that I think will lead to freedom. Find
out more at our website. Equip radio.org will be right back.
(26:18):
Welcome back to equip with Chris Brooks. What if you
were never meant to do it all? Have you ever
wrestled with guilt and shame that comes over your heart
and soul when you can't do everything that's expected of you? Uh,
have you ever processed through this sense of anxiety that
(26:40):
comes because you don't feel like there's enough hours in
a day, enough days in the week when your schedule
is overloaded, when you feel like you're working hard and
you're constantly exhausted, but you're still coming up short. Well,
if you've ever felt any of these things, know that
you are not alone. This is a problem that plagues
(27:01):
all of us, all of us in this day and age.
And I think this is why my brother Kelly. His
book is so important and so timely. I want you
to get a copy of it. You were never meant
to do it all. It's a 40 day devotional on
the goodness of being human. It's something that I think
we need each day is, um, is written in a
(27:24):
way that you can just carve out some time, some
space to really sit in this process through it and
allow your soul to meditate on the truth of God,
embracing your own limitations and living into his grace. Find
out more at our website. Equip radio.org that's equip radio.org. Kelly.
(27:46):
When I was introducing you at the beginning of this conversation,
I said, I really wish that we could talk about
each of your books and we can't do that, but
they are certainly each worth reading. But I do want
to ask a question of how does your never you
were never meant to do it all. How does it
relate to your only human? Um, I love your book,
(28:09):
You're Only Human and then having a daughter right now
who's going through a cancer journey, you're you're writing on
embodied hope as well. So help me to understand how
maybe embodied hope helped to shape your thinking around finitude
and how this book relates to your only human. And
(28:30):
do all of it in five minutes or less.
S2 (28:33):
Yeah, thanks. Thanks for asking that, Chris. It's very thoughtful. Yeah, actually,
in some ways the books are written backwards. The embodied
hope is about pain and suffering, and the short version
is my wife had cancer, as you know, in 2008.
A year later declared cancer free. But since 2010, to
this day, every day she deals with pain and fatigue.
(28:53):
And if you saw her, you wouldn't. You wouldn't notice, um,
which is a gift, but it's still very much part
of our lives. And so working through that, with her encouragement,
I wrote, embodied Hope and really learned to value the
importance of our bodies and the importance of lament. And
I think until I was able to say, God is good,
(29:14):
but this world is broken and everything isn't the way
God intended. And that's why the Psalms have 35 to 40%
of them are about laments. That became very important because
my wife and I, like you, described yourself, were like,
we're we're a people who love to get stuff done.
We're accomplished that kind of thing. And we just kept
having to cut out, cut out, cut out. Um, and,
(29:36):
and then with chronic pain, it just became it became more.
And so all of a sudden you realize, wait, what
does faithfulness look like for us? That's been the really
important question. And so after wrestling through suffering, I think
I was finally ready to say, here's the goodness of
being a creature, and that even if there were no
sin or even suffering, we have such unrealistic expectations. This
(29:59):
is distorting my understanding of who I am, who God is,
and what that looks like. And so part of the
journey for me has been I take sin very seriously
as a theologian. And my tradition, reformed tradition is emphasizes sin.
But sometimes you can take something that's true and make
it the only thing and then undermine other things. And
(30:19):
part of God. The Bible emphasizes the goodness of creation,
the goodness of our bodies. And so it's trying to
navigate the good gifts God has given, but also being
honest about this broken and fallen world and trying to
think through what faithfulness looks like. And until we do that,
then people with disabilities, people who are sick, people who
(30:41):
are just overwhelmed, they just feel like they're letting God
down constantly. But what if what if God is actually
very compassionate and kind and has a very different vision
of what faithfulness looks like?
S1 (30:54):
You know, I just want to say and just pause
and and say thank you to your wife and kids
for allowing you to really be transparent, vulnerable, to write
books like embodied Hope. Uh, because it really it really is, um,
a gift to the body of Christ. And I also
think that it can only be done with the permission
(31:17):
of your family. Yeah. Uh, to, uh, to to grant that, uh,
green light so that others can be helped and benefited
from the real pain that's faced every day. So I
bring that up just to say Kelly doesn't write from
a posture or position of ignorance to pain or callousness
to difficulty. He recognizes that. And that's woven through every
(31:42):
day of this this beautiful, uh, well designed devotional. I
do want to ask a question, though, about, um, what
your hope is. What is your hope for those who will, uh,
pick it up and read this book?
S2 (31:58):
You know, honestly, some of it is joy. Um, when
you start to realize I don't have to compete with everyone.
I can celebrate others and including in church whenever there
are needs, is your immediate default like mine? Like, oh,
there's a need. I have to meet it. Would that
actually can be a problem? Um, you know, most of
(32:21):
us know 15, 20% of the church does most of
the work. Well, actually, when you start to go, no,
I'm part of this body. And I was never meant
to do it all, but but the whole it takes
the whole church to be the one body of Christ.
So that means when missionaries come to town, rather than
like them apologizing for raising money, we're like, I was
so thankful you're doing it because I can't. When someone's
(32:42):
evangelizing or doing youth ministry and you can't, you're like,
that's praise God. When someone is has a kind of
job that's making a lot of money to help support,
praise God. In other words, there's something joyful when we
stop competing with everyone and start viewing one another as
gifts from God. And when we stop thinking God is
just a taskmaster, but instead a compassionate, knowing Heavenly Father
(33:05):
who begins a good work in us, he's going to
see it to completion, and he is not constantly frustrated
or irritated by us. He picks us up, keeps growing
us in grace and truth. It's a very different vision
that I think is hopeful. And if the Christian life
just feels heavy and burdensome, that's a sign we've misunderstood
God in the gospel.
S1 (33:25):
All right. Now, you just brought up a really important question.
What are the signs? You know, I just talked about earlier.
One of the signs that are is a telltale sign
in my my life that I'm doing too much is
I'm not able to really be thoughtful like I want
to be. Um, as as you as I quoted your
(33:46):
your quote of Soren Kierkegaard not able to, uh, develop
the heart that I want to have towards others. What
are other signs that you look for in your life
that are telltale signs that. Kelly, you're doing too much?
S2 (34:02):
Yeah, it's a great question. Um, for me, there are
things like, uh prayerlessness. Um, exhaustion. Now, before I say more,
I do want to say for me and maybe for listeners,
a very simple way to think through this that I
think is helpful to, again, avoid extremes is farmers. There
are times, including in my life, like with a book launch,
(34:25):
right where it's harvest time and you and like farmers
will put in 12 14 hour days sometimes. Yeah. And
so I am not I'm not I don't have this
romanticized view of every person should work this many hours,
every day and sleep this long. No no, no. But
so working long days is not sinful or bad. The
problem is, when you try and make every day harvest day,
(34:46):
then all of a sudden our bodies start to give out,
our relationships start to give out. So for me. Yeah.
Am I, you know, we sing. I want to be
where my feet are. Well, when I'm with people. But
my mind is somewhere else. That's another sign. Right. When
I'm clinging to things tightly or self-absorbed or. Or just
one more is when I find I'm bitter or easily
(35:09):
irritated because people aren't doing their share. That tends to
mean I'm taking on more than I should myself.
S1 (35:16):
Yeah, you talked about being wired to, um, solve a
problem when you see it, to automatically take up a concern, uh,
when nobody else is stepping into that. That's a difficult thing.
I mean, that is a real reality for people who
have compassion, empathy. Those are really good qualities. But those
(35:38):
have to be counterbalanced because the enemy can leverage those
against us as well. And we can look up and
find that we are bitter, angry and exhausted. It's because
maybe we're taking on more of the burden than what
God told us to. Living into his grace, how do
we do it? How do we make this practical or
(36:01):
in business terms, operationalize what Kelly is talking about. We'll
discuss that and much more on the other side of
this break. I really wish that I could get this
book into the hands of pastors and parents and business
people and college students. I can't do that without your help.
So what you need to do is call. If God
(36:23):
has been kind of pricking at your heart through this conversation,
you're saying, Chris, I need it. Call (888)Â 644-4144 or go
to equip radio.org. We'll be right back. Each day on equip,
we confront the cultural challenges of our time, offering biblical
(36:45):
truth with discernment and confidence in God's plans and purposes.
Your support as an Equipper helps us reach more people
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(37:06):
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to you, you've been encouraged by the ministry, and you
(37:28):
want to help us to reach more people with the
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has come. Why don't you give us a call? You
can learn how to partner with us by dialing the
number 888644 4144. That's 888644 4144. Or find out more
(37:51):
at Equip Radio.com. Kelly is my guest today. We're talking
about the 40 day devotional that he's put out, which
is really a complement to the book You're Only human.
If you've not read that, I would encourage you to
read that. But the 40 day devotional is you were
never meant to do it all. And I really think
(38:12):
this is going to be a revolutionary resource in your life.
So I really want to encourage you to pick it up.
All right. Kelly, I think I know the source of
the problem. The source of the problem has to be
all the hours we spend scrolling the internet, swiping through
social media. Is that the source of the problem?
S2 (38:35):
That I think you know, and that is what I
originally started my research thought was the source of the problem.
And now I've become a little skeptical of that. I,
I still think these are obviously issues, but rather than
seeing them as the source of the problem, I now
think they're a sign of a deeper malady. In other words,
I think we should ask not just why are kids
(38:55):
spent so much time scrolling and binging Netflix, but why
do we? And I think part of it is because, yeah,
if we have even a moment of silence waiting in
the grocery store line or, or whatever, if we don't
distract ourselves, we instantly think of all the things that
we should do and it crushes us. So all of
(39:16):
us are using distraction as a way to navigate this,
this endless demand kind of situation which only fosters the problem.
S1 (39:26):
So the so the escapism you're saying is a symptom.
S2 (39:30):
Exactly. And then it and then it's both a symptom
and feeds the problem.
S1 (39:35):
Yeah. And it perpetuates the problem. Um, Kelly, let's just, uh,
kind of talk about who you wrote this for. I just,
before we went to break, named off 4 or 5
categories of people. Uh, maybe the simplest answer is that
you wrote this for about 8 billion people on the planet.
But let's narrow it a little bit. When you're when
(39:59):
you're writing, I know for me, when I'm thinking about
a sermon or a radio program, I have certain people
in mind. What particular audiences stood out to you?
S2 (40:10):
It's such a good question. Um, honestly, the first was myself. Uh,
this was me working through things myself because it's such
a struggle. Um, and then as a college professor, my students,
you know, I speak at colleges around the country, and
I have not been to a single one that can
keep up with the mental health and anxiety issues. And
this is all totally related to that. Um, but also
(40:33):
I have for me, the test case for Christian spirituality
is does this make sense to a materially poor person?
And does this make sense to a, um, a mom
who has a newborn at home?
S1 (40:45):
Yeah.
S2 (40:46):
Because I think we romanticize these things. So I'm really
interested in theology and spirituality. That's earthy, that's honoring to God,
and that's that's not naive. And so that's me trying
to work through some of these things.
S1 (40:58):
Yeah. Well, I think, uh, there's a comedian. His name
is Michael Junior. You may be familiar with him, but, uh, he,
he has this talk that he does. Yeah. He's hilarious.
He has this talk that he does at all of
his comedy shows. It says there are two types of
people in the world. Those who struggle with giving and
those who struggle with receiving. And God is trying to
(41:21):
challenge each of us at the area of our struggle.
And so the way he kind of does this thought
experiment is he sets up his resource table in a
way where you can come to the resource table and
just give and not take anything with you. Or you
can come to the resource table and take and not
(41:42):
give anything at all. And he invites people to do
it based off of wherever their struggle is. If you
struggle with receiving, just go to resource table and just
take something and don't leave anything. And if you struggle
with giving, just go and give and don't take anything,
you know. And I think in a lot of ways,
this is what I feel when I read your book. Like,
(42:04):
you do have to identify where you're at in this
is my struggle. Uh, the legalism or passivity? Where am
I at with this? And let me realize that the
goal of all of this is communion with God, communion
with others, and to be at a place where I'm
(42:25):
able to sense God leading in grace. And I guess
that's where I want to maybe land this plane. How
would you define success for the single mom, for the
materially poor person, for the person who's maybe in leadership,
what would you say is success in this?
S2 (42:45):
The short version would be walking in the fear of
the Lord. Um, the fear of the Lord. That ancient phrase.
But that ancient phrase is not normally about being scared
of God. It's actually it's the person who's lift their
gaze from their belly button to the horizon, and they
live in light of God's presence, his provision, his kindness. Um,
(43:06):
and so living in the in the fear of the
Lord is really in contemporary language. It's learning to be
present with God. And that doesn't just mean silent alone.
It can mean walking across campus. And just as you
see people in your heart, just pray for them or
thanking God for them. Um, or you're in a grocery
store and you see something, you think, God, will you
minister to that person? Just being present with God and
(43:29):
and being present with God helps us to learn to
be present with other people. Um, it's very hard to
be present with other people when we're not present with God.
Those two are interrelated.
S1 (43:41):
Alright, I just wrote this down. Lifting your eyes from
your navel to the horizon. I don't know if I've
ever heard that before, brother.
S2 (43:50):
That's my definition of the fear of the Lord, right?
Starting to see God in all of it.
S1 (43:55):
That gives navel gazing a whole new definition. And that
is so rich and so good. You know, living my
life in light of the the reality of God corondao,
you know, living in the face of the Lord. And, uh, man,
(44:15):
you have given us a rich resource that I really
want to encourage everyone to get a hold of. And
so as as I joke with Kelly, hey, uh, 8
billion people could buy this and it would be great. Um,
but I really want to speak to pastors. I know
Kelly really loves the body of Christ, has a rich ecclesiology,
(44:38):
and wants to see the church healthy again. And so
I would encourage pastors, but also many of you are
business leaders in marketplace roles. This would be great for you.
I have a huge heart for college university young adults
to get Ahold of this. And yes, the mom who's
(44:59):
at home, the parent who is in a tough season
of parenting. Maybe because, like me, you got five kids
all demanding at different stages, or maybe you're going through
an acute season of intensity. But get this so that
you don't lose the joy of communion with God and
(45:19):
with others.
S2 (45:20):
Yeah. And just to say real quick, one of the
things we found is by doing doing it alone, but
then in small groups like meet once a week for
the 40 days, that all of a sudden does something
because it connects God and neighbor together as you slowly
think through these things.
S1 (45:34):
Brother, it's always a joy. You have a green light
to stop by quip at any time you want. Give
us a shout out from Lookout Mountain, brother. I appreciate
the work you're doing over at Covenant College and God
bless you and your family. Father, we just pray for Kelly.
We pray for his bride. We pray for the kids, Lord,
(45:57):
that you would pour out grace upon grace and allow
him to live into the sweet communion that's available to
all of us, in Jesus name. Amen.
S2 (46:09):
Amen. Thank you so much, brother. That meant a lot.
S1 (46:12):
God bless you, brother. Listen, friends, I want to encourage you.
You can get your copy, go to our website Radio.com
that's equip Radio.com. And you know, if, uh, throughout this conversation,
you've been saying Amen. Nodding your head or even saying ouch.
(46:33):
If you did any of those three things, this is
for you. Your you were never meant to do it all.
A 40 day devotional on the goodness of being human.
Go to our website. And I can't wait till we're
together again next time. So until then, remember equip with
(46:54):
Chris Brooks is the production of Moody Radio, a ministry
of Moody Bible Institute.
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