October 4, 2022 • 50 mins
Have you ever felt trapped in a job and are only doing it because you feel you "should"?
Have you ever been told you "should" get a qualification and "should" get a solid job and "should" buy a house and "should" get married?
Yet people are drowning in college debt, one in three people consider their jobs as meaningless, people come trapped in their jobs to pay mortgages, and last I heard 50% of marriages end in divorce.
Are you sick of being told, this is how you "should" do things? You've gotten into this position because you've always taken the advice of other people. Your parents probably told you to get some training behind you, get a solid job, maybe even a mortgage, and then you'll be happy.
Join host Steve Oehley as he talks to Clare Mann about the myths we tell ourselves, that hold us back.
>> JOIN THE COMMUNITY:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/escapetheninetofivepod
>> OUR GUEST THIS EPISODE:
Clare Mann is a banker turned organisational psychologist. She unpacks the myths we tell ourselves we "should" do, teaching you how to get rid of the myths we tell ourselves and do things we actually want to.
Links: https://linktr.ee/clare_mann
>> WHAT YOU’LL LEARN:
1 How to spend more time doing things you actually want to.
2 How to get rid of the excuses we tell ourselves when we dare to change.
3 How to listen to your own voice.
>> TAKE HOME CHALLENGE: TIME SPEND.
Grab a big sheet of paper and write down exactly how you're spending your 168 hours per week. Cross out all the things you do only because you think you "should" or someone else has told you you "should". Replace these with things you want to do, including allowing time DAILY for at least 30 minutes of exercise and at least 15 minutes of meditation. I guarantee this will not only make you feel happier, but help with decision making down the road when you've got a healthier and clearer mind.
Podcast genre: career change, career transition, work life balance, great resignation.
Podcast also known as: escape the 9 to 5
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Steve (00:00):
Have you ever felt trapped in a job and you're only doing
it because you feel you should
Clare Mann (00:05):
What has influenced me to choose the career path to do what are
the messages I tell myself or otherpeople tell me when I look to change?
Or gosh, I'm 30, I've got a mortgage.
I ought to be settled down and well,I've been doing accountancy for a
while, even though you may not likeit well, do you really want to be
doing that for another 30 years?
So ask yourself first, the questionis, what comes up when I dare to
(00:26):
think about changing there's someridiculous percentage of people that
really do not like going to work.
It's like eight or nine people out of10, do not like going to work what a
total waste of one's creative capacityand, and how it influences people
(01:26):
. Steve: Have you ever been told you should get a qualification and
should get a solid job and shouldbuy a house and should get married.
and yet people aredrowning in college debt.
One in three people consider their jobs.
As meaningless people come trappedin their jobs to pay mortgages.
And last I heard 50% ofmarriages end in divorce.
(01:48):
Are you sick of being told, this is howyou should do things you've gotten into
this position because you've alwaystaken the advice of other people.
Your parents probably told youto get some training behind you.
Get a solid job, maybe even amortgage, and then you'll be happy.
I'm Steve oily, providing you with anepisode by episode guide to escaping
the nine to five while learningfrom people who've successfully
(02:11):
done it in our second episode.
That person isorganizational psychologist.
Clear, man.
She's identified myths.
We tell ourselves we should do andhow you can get rid of these and spend
more time doing things actually want.
She encourages you to removethe excuses and come up with
your best version of your life.
(02:31):
If you knew you could not fail.
She also untangles all the myths we tellourselves that get in the way finally of
have your take home challenge to help youon your journey out of a nine to five.
I joined the conversation, explainingto Claire why I started the podcast
The inspiration for the podcast wasactually talking to so many of my friends
(02:53):
and every second person that I talked tosaid, I, you know, I've done this degree
and I've been working in this industryfor three or four years and, and not happy
and don't know what to do with my life.
And I think people feel a little bittrapped potentially because , if you're
not happy when you're 21 who sort of feellike, Oh well, I'll study something else
or I'll do something completely different.
But when you're in your late twenties,early thirties, potentially there
(03:14):
might be a mortgage there, or
other commitments that meanyou can't necessarily change.
, for our listeners, can you justgive us a bit of a background as
to who you are and what you do.
I'm Claremont of course.
And, I've been a psychologist actuallyfor about 30 years, but I started off
as an organizational psychologist, butthat wasn't until I was about 25, 26.
(03:35):
I left school at 16 actually, andwas heading for the banking career.
And I found out very early on that thatwas not for me, that more pedestrian life.
And, and after about five or six years,I knew I was more of a people person.
So luckily I had some greatpeople around me that influenced
me to make those changes.
So can ended up with organizationalpsychology and working in organizations.
(03:57):
And then later on moved into moredirect work coaching and then
more sort of counseling psychologyand ran the communication piece.
And I've written and spoken a lotabout, , the choices we have where
we deny we have choice, or we can'teven see where they're available.
So that's where I sort of findmyself encouraging people to use.
Steve (04:17):
and I think it's very appropriate that we you mentioned
your book, which is myths of choice.
just remember it.
heading home and being quite resoundingas to, the message that we're
trying to, portray in the podcast.
So can you give our listeners a bitof a like a summary of, the book?
Clare Mann (04:34):
well, it really aligns with really what you
are doing with the podcast.
Because as we know, there's someridiculous percentage of people that
really do not like going to work.
It's like eight or nine people out of10, do not like going to work what a
total waste of one's creative capacityand, and how it influences people
being depressed most of the time.
(04:55):
So I wrote this book and I shouldn't,he came out a couple of years ago.
But I realized very early on in mylife that there were a lot of shoots,
a lot of aunts, a lot of musts, whichcome out of our culture, of course,
our socialization with our parents.
And we hear it all the time.
I should sort of, go and travel around theworld, have a great time because later I
won't be able to do it well, who decidedit all gets cut off at 25, you know?
(05:18):
And I ought to save moneybecause I'll forever be renting
and that's a terrible thing.
Not always, I must study hard and getsomething behind me, all these little
cliches aren't they, or, you know, Ishould go and visit my mother-in-law
because that's what good people do.
I
must go home for Christmas.
Steve (05:38):
it's, funny, you mentioned the, the shirts thing is, cause
I actually grew up in a, prettyconservative south African household.
And my old man's a teacher.
Very much of the mentalityis this is what you must do.
This is what you should do.
You know, you should get a degreeand you should go and get a
solid job and you should buy ahouse and all that sort of thing.
(05:58):
And people have different upbringings,but I think that does tend to
be a bit of commonality therein terms of people who end up.
I'm not saying necessarily a degree, youmight've done a building apprenticeship,
but you should get this behind you,even if it's not what you want to do.
Clare Mann (06:14):
That's right.
It say, you want to getsomething behind you.
You must, you should.
And whenever we hear those threewords to me, they like the red
sort of flat black sort of thing.
They really are telling us there's a myth.
The way I talk about this is amyth is an unquestioned assumption.
This is what we've always done.
It was good enough for your fatherand his father before him and all
(06:34):
that sort of melt since we're here.
, or your, oh, you fed lots of partners.
You can't be a person whocommits, you know, this sort of
interpretation of our reality.
And so I'm wanting to make it reallyeasy for people by dividing it
into a different number of myths.
And I've identified eight thatseemed to operate in our world.
But I'll tell you when I first came acrossthis, it's always a little backstory.
(06:56):
Isn't it?
To all our sort of interests.
No doubt while you're doing the podcast.
And I remember I must'vebeen about eight years.
And I don't think it's a romantic story.
Cause my mother called to validated it.
And I remember there was always a familysort of chuckle that used to happen.
And my mum used to say to my dad,Hey Vick, do you want tea or coffee?
And he'll said, I'll havethe same as you dear.
(07:17):
And my mum, depending on whethershe just wanted to make him the same
drink would say, oh, come on Vick.
You know, what do you want to know?
I'm not going to choose.
He'd go and this sort of thing.
And then she'd be, you know, she wasa bit of an argument the night before
in good spirit, I guess she'd say, oh,I'm having a gin and tonic, you know,
it was nine o'clock in the morningand you don't have to be sarcastic.
It was all this sort of, butmy father would not choose.
(07:40):
And I remember looking up andhearing my father say, Gabrielle,
I am not going to choose.
Obviously I've thought about it a lotsince, but I remember having these
very philosophical discussions with mymother, but I suddenly realized he wasn't
not choosing, he was choosing not to.
I got really interested.
It is, you know, we try to relinquishresponsibility for our choices, our lives,
(08:02):
our career options, our partners, whetherwe have children or not to someone else
or to something else like our cultureor stage in life or gender or something.
And I suddenly realized my dadwas relinquishing responsibility
when he was still choosing.
And I got really interested in, aphilosophy called existential
philosophy, what it is to exist.
(08:23):
And that gave notion to allthis, , notions of choice and where
we deny we've got choice where wecan't see, we see it's available.
So the myths of choiceidentifies eight different myths.
The group myth, the identity.
Morality selfishness myth commitment,myth dishonesty, all of these that
where we have an assumption thatthis is what things mean, and this
(08:46):
is what we think things should do.
So if we have a belief, for instance,a myth that if people really care about
you, they'd never forget your birthday.
When someone forgets our birthday,which is just a day and it
may not be important to them.
We put a huge significance on that.
And they're not really my friend.
They don't care when in fact itjust might not be important to them.
(09:08):
So the book is to try and get us to.
Look at where, particularly when welook at the nine to five and we start
to say, what has influenced me tochoose the career path to do what are
the messages I tell myself or otherpeople tell me when I look to change?
Or gosh, I'm 30, I've got a mortgage.
I ought to be settled down and well,I've been doing accountancy for a
while, even though you may not likeit is, well, do you really want to
(09:31):
be doing that for another 30 years?
So ask yourself first, the question is,what is comes up when I dare to think
about changing where does that come from?
Sometimes it may be negligent towalk out of that job immediately
before securing something else.
And it might reduce your options.
You might be able to on your ear and knowwhere to live, but usually assumptions.
It comes from otherpeople or our own fears.
(09:54):
But given that eight or nine people thatattend, don't like going to work, we
don't want to be that statistic becauselife is books too short and too long.
Steve (10:01):
no, that's really fascinating.
In terms of the.
Not only dispelling the myths, doprovide any sort of suggestions
for what people can do.
Cause I guess for somepeople in particular, they've
always lived by those myths.
This is what I should do.
And potentially you've been sayingthese things for years and then someone
goes and tells you actually hang on.
(10:22):
That's just , something else society hasbeen telling us for the last 200 years.
I mean like university probablydidn't exist or barely existed, I know
universities existed for longer than acouple of hundred years, but for most
people, university wasn't an option untilreally the last 50 to a hundred years.
So the notion that you should go touniversity is actually a very recent one.
And so for people that have alwaysloved fly, something like that.
(10:45):
So I should go to universityor I should get a solid job
or I should get a mortgage.
What advice would you have to themin terms of rethinking those myths?
And sort of creating a newpath for themselves going
Clare Mann (10:59):
Yeah.
Well, it's one of the things, one of thechapters is the myth that you can't change
because it is, but it's being realistic.
The fact that when we come to thinkabout change, say it's ending a
relationship, you know, and you'vebeen in the relationship a long time
and we try to think about that a week.
We've been in a job a long time.
We have responsibilities,we talk our way out of it.
(11:20):
I've got responsibilities.
My children are at a certain school.
You know, my partner wouldn't likeit is, is going through a process to
identify, you know, I get people topicture that they're in a bit of a box.
Okay.
And you're trying to get out of thebox and it's really identifying.
The problem is when we break thingsdown, often the problem isn't as big.
(11:42):
It seems so insurmountable.
I say, take a large sheet ofpaper and write down exactly.
How you're spending yourtime, your 168 hours per week.
So instead of going, I justwant to look at that Korean,
look at how you spend your life.
And then you, once you breakit down, you start to look at
how much is you should be told.
You've got to do, gotto visit the in-laws.
(12:03):
I should go to the gym.
Even.
I really would prefer to do somegardening, , but we go to the gym because
that's our cultural expectation at themoment so how, what do you, how do you
spend your time, dividing them intoenjoyable and enjoyable and in different,
positive or negative, active or reactive?
Are you choosing them orletting someone else do this?
And I get people to actually work throughwhat they do with their time and a
(12:24):
big chunk of that is going to be work.
So it's looking at askinga really big question.
I want you to imagine, andeverybody could do this exercise.
You have all the money in the world.
You, and it's not just your money, butyou can call on other people's money
so people can invest in your projects.
You've got all the confidence,all the contacts all the health,
(12:47):
all the energy all the time.
I know the people's time.
So in other words, you have no excuses.
And I say to people, what wouldyou begin to do right now?
If you knew you could not fail.
And most people go, but that madeyou put the limits on there's
the myths you say, oh yeah.
Well, what I would do,I'd go and do this job.
(13:08):
Well, maybe you don't want to do a job.
Maybe you could just do a job for twohours a week and get other people.
What is the outcome of the job you want?
Well, I like being aroundreally cool people.
I like being a bit creative or you don'thave to have a job for that member.
You you're the master of the universityor you've, you've got no limitations.
If you could do it without censorshipand worry, are you going to get it?
Is it gives you an idea of thesort of area that your compass
(13:31):
needs to be directing in.
So if someone says, honestly, Iprobably going to do voluntary work
in India, looking after orphan kids.
There's something there for youor I'm passionate about animals.
They might say, I wantto work in a sanctuary.
Okay.
Well at patch and rarely do peoplewhen people say, well, actually I
would be doing what I'm doing now.
I actually would say, I'mdoing what I'm doing now.
(13:53):
To me it's although I worked veryhard, a bit like a hobby, really,
because getting people to talk abouthow to have enjoyable, authentic,
meaningful lives, and the honor thatpeople tell me about their lives.
That's really cool.
So I definitely glad I left banking andactually went and did this cause it was a,
I think I would be very distressed if not,
Steve (14:14):
The point you're making in terms of, removing those limitations and, I
find a lot of people when you honestlyask them, they've maybe had a couple
of drinks and you honestly ask them,what would you want to do with your.
Life, most people will say thingsthat are actually very realistic.
I don't think most people want tobecome, you know, if I had all those
(14:36):
limitations removed, I don't have anyinterest in being the world's most
famous actor I mean, don't get me wrong.
I'd love to be the world'sbest sports person.
But, um, that is one example where theship has sailed, but, um, in most cases,
most I think most people people's kindof ideas of what they want to do with
work are actually fairly reasonable.
(14:58):
It's not being like all inthe sky dreamy about it.
It's giving peoplethe, idea to work with.
And then from there you can takeyour current reality and slowly work
towards making that your reality.
in my example, I could quit myjob and go podcasting full time.
And that probably wouldn't be a smartthing to do from the outset, but
(15:19):
there's nothing to say that I can't dothat on the side and slowly as, as it
grows make that a full-time reality.
But I think people manage to convincethemselves that, as you say, the moment
you start, saying your dreams, it's like,yeah, I would do that, but I've got to pay
the balls or I've got to do do this, or,
Clare Mann (15:39):
Yeah.
You know, you're absolutely right.
But you just said a moment agois like to be the world sports
player player or whatever, but thatship has sailed C is that a myth?
Now?
The reality is of course, you know,we know that there's for professional
tennis or whatever it might be.
You know, realistic.
I say really, you know,, there's withinthe limits of one's own physical health.
And if you're competing with a 20 yearold, who, you know, because of that just
(16:03):
that time in life and, and that littlewindow when we know there's accelerated
sort of progress potentially, but itdoesn't mean if that's really, what, if
you had a magic wand, you would do it.
Okay.
That was really somethingsomebody wanted to do.
How can I bring that tennis into my life?
I may not be on the circuit doing allthis stuff, but maybe I can coach people.
(16:23):
Maybe I can write a book about it.
Maybe I can go andteach in a kid's school.
Part-time teaching tennis, whateveryou're loving, and you can start doing
this now, whatever people's thing is.
You know, if they want to work inan animal, sanctuary is you don't
have to wait too free to do it.
Go and volunteer once a.
And go and do it, whatever itis, start doing it because it
was a German writer called Gerta.
(16:45):
I think he said boldness has power.
You know, when we go out there andstart doing it, it's almost as if I
don't know energetically the law ofattraction or whatever opportunities
rush to us, or we see thoseopportunities that we didn't see before.
Start with a really big vision,you know, with that vision,
we could have world peace.
And who was it?
Who said, give me a big enough lever.
(17:07):
And I would shift the world.
It was like Atlas or something.
He wanted to, you know, movethe planet sort of thing.
of people say, oh, if, if Iwon the lottery, I do sign.
So, I'm very rarely say if Isay, when, you know, he'll say
with my podcast is successful.
When my podcast is successful, Youknow, and people go here, but it
(17:27):
kind of there's that self-talk soself-talk is a really big thing of this.
Learn your own self-talk whatis it that excuses or haven't
got enough time, a lot of money.
I'm not young enough.
I'm not rich enough.
These actually, a lot of them areall excuses because within reason,
if someone else has done it beforewe can do it and often people use
(17:49):
other people's money, actually,
You've got to have what Icall the stacking shelf.
Job is keep doing what you dotill you can make that leap.
If we move too quickly or we start ourown business too quickly, we've got
to make money within a certain time.
We stopped being creative.
Whereas if we could start to investin those changes and do things, we
(18:10):
can start to see the opportunities,you know, develop that while we
still not have to worry about payingthe mortgage or the rent, nothing.
That's important.
Steve (18:19):
It's interesting.
I'm talking to different guestsfrom completely different
backgrounds and how some of thesame sort of themes come through.
One of the things you said earlierwas something along the lines
of, if you start doing somethingopportunities will present themselves.
I've had different guestssay very similar things.
And I've also heard written a book, whichsays people misunderstand motivation.
(18:42):
They think that you need motivationto be able to do something, but in
reality, by making an action givesyou the inspiration and the motivation.
So just by doing something will likelycreate the opportunity to, you know,
the person that goes to the sanctuaryand starts fall interfering one day.
They might actually have a part-timejob that has going, and next thing
(19:05):
they're doing, they're two days aweek and they're getting paid for it.
And then a year down the line, they'vegot a full-time job and I'm so impressed
with this person that they end upgetting a full-time job at the sanctuary.
but whereas the person who, whosaid, oh, I don't know if I have
time to, to volunteer one day a week.
, I've got to really like earn a living.
They just making an excuse becausethe reality is, is that especially
(19:27):
in the 21st century, most peoplecould probably do a job two or three
days a week and earn enough money tosurvive, at least in the short term.
Yeah,
sure.
You might not be able to go for youroverseas holiday and buy your flesh
clothes for a year, but if you're seriousabout making a change it is possible
to just do it.
Part-time I suppose.
Clare Mann (19:46):
yeah, no, I, I, I absolutely agree with you.
I think it's also, look at yourlife and actually see, do it.
Income and outcome go outgoings.
And actually a lot of people, Fritschera lot of money that could be vested
in that training and development,by investing in books and online
programs and retraining, you know, butthey still haven't gotten the money.
(20:07):
Gosh, it all goes when weactually break it down.
And we realized there was actually aspeaker in the UK, our member once called
the, he called it the latte factor.
Now we all liked going outfor coffee or most people do.
And it's great when it's a treat, butif people keep doing it where they just
constantly giving a fix and they'rehaving three a day, $3 each, so they're
spending $10 a day, $50 a week, youknow, $200 a month and 2000 a year.
(20:33):
It's soon adds up well to size andyou can really do something with that.
And that's just coffee and it startingto, I mean, I'm quite a minimalist.
And I like very muchexperiences, you know?
Cause that's what we rememberat the end of our life.
Not that we had the, onlybespoke nine slice Danish
toaster in the world, you know?
Cause everyone was meant to have that.
(20:53):
You know, who cares?
We actually think about,oh, do you know that time?
I went to New Zealand and Iwent and climbed Mount cook,
or actually someone said somethingto me, you think about this,
Steve . They said their mothergave them some really good advice.
It was a guy in his fifties.
He said, this is a bit though.
I would like to say is you travelwhen you're young, you sight.
See when you're older.
(21:14):
And I saw for the majorityof people that probably is.
Because they're worriedabout their reputation.
They don't want to get blinding thedrunken out three in the morning.
And I beat her, you know, but why not?
Who's looking really, butwe've all remember reputation.
I'm a lawyer, or gosh, I mightget struck off or, you know, but
actually it, another thing is a myth.
We've got to get this.
Have you found out the way beforeyou have children, but why have
(21:36):
children, if you don't make fun of it,
Steve (21:38):
funny thing is I actually did a trip with some mates three years ago.
We did, what's called the rickshaw run.
So we took, took talks and we paintedthem and Kiwi colors and we traveled 3000
K's of the space for a couple of weeks.
And bearing in mind that thattalked to Quinn about 50 Ks an hour.
So it was a lot of driving.
, so most of the people that were on thetrip were genuinely under 30, but we
(22:00):
actually bumped into, um, there wasan, an older guy, probably late fifties
with his 18 year old son who was there.
And we also bumped into a older groupthat were doing their own thing, but.
there's no, reason to say that youhave to go and stay in a flash hotel.
Clare Mann (22:17):
that's right.
Yeah.
And is it better when you've stayed insome sort of place that you get to know
the people that live there, think of the,when you've been traveling or whatever,
and you were sitting in the lounge.
So when you bumped into other peoplethat they, you know, backpackers or
something, or, you know, in the pubor something, we're very isolated,
when we go and stay in hotels,we'll be just keep to ourselves.
Whereas you tend tochat with other people.
(22:39):
And that's the stories that we remember.
You remember all the stories of the Tufts.
I think that's great.
I'll be, I do know Chucktalks, this was in Thailand.
Was it?
Or where was this?
Steve (22:47):
no, this?
is India?
Clare Mann (22:49):
Of course.
That's right.
So you've normally you've got a driver.
How would you be?
You actually drove them yourself.
Steve (22:54):
yes.
And I gave us a real appreciationof what it was like to be a local.
cause we ended up doing a,um, a trip where we did have a
driver after the ritual run and.
It felt so much safer on the road beingin an enclosed vehicle with proper
suspension and stuff, but I'm on the toptop gave, gave us a true appreciation
(23:15):
of what it was like to be a local.
Clare Mann (23:17):
That's right.
Absolutely.
And when we travel, youare more like the locals.
I mean, I've had the, thisis another thing about, you
know, the law of attraction.
What we give out is what we get.
For instance if we believe we're goingto be rich and successful, if we take
some steps towards it, we will be it.
But if we believe we're always going tobe poor, that's what we're going to do.
And it's, it's actually in everyphilosophy, every religious
(23:39):
teaching, every, personaldevelopment program, really.
And it seems to be that, why is itthat two people from a poor background
with an abusive father, one willgo on to be successful and rich,
and the other person will keep.
And it's often what peoplebelieve they're capable of.
You know, we have to makeour own luck in many ways.
(24:00):
Obviously there's often opportunityor whatever, but, you know, I've
gone to motivational talks andthe guy that comes from like
Puerto Rico, he was a street kid.
And I remember seeing him at aspeaker's talk once and he came
to America and he actually wasn'ta illegal immigrant back then.
It was probably 40 years ago andhe was locked under the truck that
was going across to America.
Just wanted to escape over then.
(24:20):
Of course he couldn't legallywork, but he got a job, I think at
a fast food joint, looking afterthe outside area, cleaning it.
And he thought I'm in America.
If I can't make it here.
And I lived on the street and Puerto Rico,whatever I'm going to make this work.
So he decided he was goingto be the best cleaner going.
And he was going to be waiting the tables,even though he was a cleaner and he
(24:41):
took great pride in this outside area.
And this fast food thing would beable to throw their junk out there.
And of course he was recognized andthen he got an opportunity to work in.
Then he just worked up the ranks andhe started to realize is that if we do
every job and every action is if it'sabsolutely our choice and we give it our
best, we've got a much better opportunity.
(25:02):
We're demonstrating to other people thatmight take a risk in us or, you know,
invest in us or offer us something.
But if we say, oh yeah,I'll really show up.
When I do what I really love.
People are going to go well,if he can't do it with a small
staff, how are you going to do it?
The big stuff.
So I think it's very important toact as if, act as if talk as if you
were already successful talkers.
But another little tip for peopleis ask yourself, what is success?
(25:27):
I heard a wonderful definitionby the late Earl Nightingale.
He said, success is the progressiverealization of a worthy idea.
The progressive realization, somethingwe are doing every day, moving
towards what I stacking our shelves.
We are moving towards.
Cause we're dreaming about our dream.
(25:48):
That's moving towardsprogression of a worthy ideal.
We've all got to decidewhat our worthy ideal is.
I'm sure that, you know, were you doingthe podcast, something you obviously
love and it's, you know, you know, you'remaking an influence and change for people.
I bet you talk about thatwith your wife over coffee.
I bet you're talking about itall the time is what people do.
(26:08):
Are they meaningful live yet?
This really interesting person,you talk to the very thing that
you do, like falling off a logis what we really love doing.
And you know, if we can turn that intosomething that gives us an income.
So therefore we can, we don'thave to spend our time doing other
things to get the income, to dothis in the long-term the better.
So, so work at what your where the idealis and then say, how can I move towards.
(26:32):
What is the worthy ideal?
What is it you want from that?
Well, I want to feel I've wasted my life.
I want to feel, you know,that I've done the best.
I didn't let myself down.
I want to contribute to otherkids knowing that they can be
successful to whatever it is.
But if we don't know where we'regoing, we end up somewhere else.
So work at what the worthy ideal is.
And then I always say you're movingforward or you're moving back.
(26:55):
Okay.
Let's just take a really simple thing.
Say somebody chooses to go on a diet, evenif the word diet is die with the teeth.
It's um, you know, it's but say they are,and they've followed some sort of regime.
And on day two, they pick up a bagof donuts and they start eating
and they go, oh, broken the day.
You know what most people say, Steve,they want to get back on the diet.
(27:18):
What do they say?
A lot of people go, oh,I'll start again tomorrow.
How much will go crazy?
Now they opened the six
Steve (27:23):
or It's ruined They might've actually been good for three weeks
and they were planning on doing it forsix months, but because they've had
one trade and stuffed up one side it's
Clare Mann (27:31):
And then they just keep stuffing themselves.
But actually they keep eating the donuts.
I don't even want the donuts.
I had two and a half and they feelsick, but they, because it's linked
to freedom and not being restrained.
Oh, what the heck?
And so now they've eaten50,000 more calories.
And when they start the diettomorrow, they wake up, you know,
all shook it up and whatever, themoment that we are back on track.
(27:52):
And I just use the diet as anexample is it's the moment you
stop eating and you think about it.
Are you putting something in your mouth sothat when they take a bite of the doughnut
and they go, I don't want the rest.
They are back on track because whateverway they do it, they're not breaking it.
And I think we wait tilltomorrow, we wait till the job.
(28:12):
We wait until the weekendbefore we can enjoy ourselves.
And it's a myth really,because , we've only got no.
all the moving forward to moving back.
So you just so much, you want tobe healthy and well, so let me give
you an example, not to show off,but I've done yoga for 40 years.
Do I go to classes of anhour, an hour and a half?
Definitely not occasionally to makesure I'm back on, but I decided all
(28:34):
that time ago, I took some greatinspiration about a short time quarter.
Of course I did when I was very youngand the woman said it's best to do
a little bit every day, then say,you're going to do it on the 1st
of January, never get around to it.
And so I decided, what could I do?
I could do five to 10 minutes,three or four times a week.
(28:54):
So I made a rule.
I'm going to do yoga five to 10 minutes,three or four times a week or more.
And it's become such a habit if I goa few days and I'm not my back starts
to wake, but it's only five or 10minutes and I've got a nice routine.
I do it at home.
Now how many years?
Weeks, months, years of I doing yoga.
(29:16):
But I only do five to 10 minutes.
Whereas if I had to wait to get inthe car, drive there, pay do the
course don't feel like it today.
And I think it's like that.
What can we progressively do?
Are we moving forward?
Are we moving back?
And whatever your dream is is, forthe listeners of this, the fact
that you're even listening to thepodcast means you're moving forward.
You're asking a question you've gothere, not by chances because something
(29:39):
is not working in your life anddispel the myth that you can't change.
Okay.
It may be difficult to dispelit, your job right now.
And it would be irresponsible potentially,you know, and it would use your choices
or your poor children would be outon their own, but work towards not.
If I get rich, if I get the inheritancefrom my family, you know, what can I do
(30:02):
now to move in the direction of my dream?
What am I prepared togive up, to get my dream?
Do we need the second car?
Do we need the really big house?
Maybe we can.
Steve (30:11):
I wanted to share this quote from Robert F.
Kennedy about materialism which I thinkis relevant to this week's episode,
too much.
And for too long, we seem to havesurrendered, personal excellence
and community values in the mirror.
Accumulation of material.
Things are gross.
National product now has over $800billion a year, but that gross
(30:32):
national product counts, air pollutionand cigarette advertising and
ambulances to clear our highways of.
It counts Whitman's rifle and speaksknife and the TV programs, which glorify
violence in order to sell toys to our.
You hit the gross national productdoes not allow for the health of
our children, the quality of theeducation or the joy of their play.
(30:55):
It measures neither our words, norour courage, neither our wisdom, nor.
Neither our compassion, norour devotion to our country.
Admissions, everything in short, exceptthat which makes life worthwhile.
just want to go quickly back to theyoga comment and the, you know, three,
four times a week, five to 10 minutes.
(31:16):
It's very similar to a bookI read called tiny habits.
premise of the book is that to create ahabit that you want in your life, rather
than, measuring it on, say, I'm goingto go to yoga for an hour, five times
a week and you end up not achieving it.
You make the habit, something really tiny.
(31:37):
And the example I can thinkof in the book is Casey's.
Every Workday, I'm goingto go for a run after work.
And so what he does is heleaves has shows by the door.
And when he comes home from work, he putshis shoes and socks on and his habit isn't
going for the run every day, his habit isputting the shoes and socks on and 90% of
(32:00):
the time from there, he will go for a run.
Sometimes he might just go fora walk cause he's really tired.
And they might be a one in 10 times thathe puts his shoes on and he decides, you
know what, it's pouring, throwing outside.
I'm exhausted.
I'm not going to go for a run, buthe's created a tiny and achievable
habit that is just we'll keep doingbecause he's actually putting on all
he has to do is put on his shoes.
(32:21):
If you make your goal, the simple,tiny thing, as opposed to this big,
more complicated thing, like goingfor an hour run or an hour of yoga
or whatever it is, it makes it.
less achievable.
And then less likely that you'reactually going to continue to do that.
Clare Mann (32:35):
I like that very much.
I think you're absolutely right, becauseit also links into what we know about
neuroscience and its neural memory.
If we look at habits, memory of the body.
I always use the example of, you know,do you clean your teeth at night?
Most people do
Steve (32:49):
one of the examples that he actually gives them.
The book is the, the, the tape andanother one, he goes as an example, is,
turning the kid along in the morning.
I think when I get up in the morning, I'mnot even thinking, and I just walk into
the kitchen, I click the kid alone andI'm barely even conscious when I do that.
He suggests actually linking ahabit to something simple like that.
(33:10):
So, you know, if you really need to do,in my case at the moment, I'm having
some problems with my upper back.
And so the physio is giving me somestretches to do if every morning
when I click the kid along, That'smy sort of reminder to do my five
minutes of upper back stretches.
It's something achievablethat you'll remember.
Clare Mann (33:27):
I think that's it.
Isn't it.
It's your body.
Remember?
We don't remind ourselvesabout cleaning teeth.
We don't set alarms, but itfeels weird if we don't do it.
So we might even get intobed and clean our teeth.
They're not going to fall out,
I always say to people, when youwake up in the morning, what's
the first thing you think of.
And people go, I reach my phone.
That is something that must stop.
Don't not be drawn intothe dumping ground of other
(33:48):
people's stuff is develop a daily mantra.
Now, when I wake up in the morning,the first thing that comes into my
head, because it's become a habit.
Does it take 10 days todevelop a habit 30 days?
You know, who knows?
Psychologists do say thaton average it's 30 days.
If we have a particularly difficultexperience or a very emotional pleasure,
but one, it can be much quicker, buton the whole, we have to keep doing
(34:11):
something until it becomes automatic.
As children, we have to bereminded to clean our teeth.
For instance, then it becomes the habit.
I have a habit that until I changeit to something else, I cannot undo
this because it is such a habit.
So I wake up, I come into awareness andthe first thing that comes into my mind
is what a grounded, glorious day filledwith love, opportunity and potential,
(34:33):
because I taught myself to do it.
And then somewhere in the house,there'll be adult tapping the tail.
Oh my God, she's up.
She's out.
Which reinforces it.
I say to people, write it down.
The three piece, the personal, thepresent tense and the positive,
you know, not sort of, I.
lose weight in the future.
That's future it's negative.
make bold statements, I am, I amsuccessful, enjoying life healthy and
(34:57):
fit, whatever it is, choose somethingthat works for you and write it down,
keep repeating it every morning.
And when you forget, start for another30 days, the idea also of the 30 days is
that in the end, you're not counting daysbecause you just do it now, when I wake
up like that and sometimes I have to getit ready early and go to Sydney in the
city I immediately propelled into Paris.
(35:20):
What grounded glory safety wouldlove opportunity and potential.
I, yeah, I don't want to get out.
It's a warm, it's a bit coldoutside, but that changes things.
Whereas if a lot of people areall good, they want to get up.
I don't want to go to work, you know, and, you're even getting paid to feel like
that, you know, you're getting your workbefore, you know, it change the script.
So develop a daily mantra.
That's going to be really important.
Steve (35:42):
I just want to make a couple of comments there.
Clear one is that from the tiny habits.
book, better, somethinghe suggests as well.
Not that there, those exact words,but he suggests when you get up in the
morning, have something, positive to say.
And I can't remember the details.
You'd have to read the book yourself.
But the other thing that I want to sayfrom people that are a bit more cynical,
and I was one of those people, as I usedto hear the positive mentality stuff.
(36:06):
And kind of roll my eyes and think this isa bit sort of wishy-washy and yeah, sure.
Say positive things, but the reality is,is that, you know, I might have a crap
day at work that doesn't mean to saythat you need to be positive a hundred
percent of the time, and it is Okay.
to feel crap when you've had a bad day,but there's something about, slowly
over time or as quickly as possiblechanging your mindset to be positive.
(36:29):
And one of the things that I noticedfrom doing some life coaching myself is
that you know, you were talking aboutthe shirts and the butts and the, I,
you know, I can't do this sort of thing.
One of the things I used to dois just subtly put myself down.
And it was only when I started.
writing it down.
Then I started to notice the pattern andnow it's very rare for me to put myself
down because I'm so conscious of it.
(36:49):
So, you know, I'd be doing somethingat work and it was something that
wouldn't go well, I'd be like, oh,I sort of mutter under my breath.
Or, you know, you're doing acrap job or something like that.
Until you become aware of these thingsthat you're doing, you don't realize
how much it's affecting your, um,and once it, and I noticed a little
bit different to what you were sayingwith the, the mantra in the morning.
But having experienced that to a certaindegree, I don't do a mantra or anything
(37:12):
in the morning, but I do genuinely believethat that's got to make a, a difference
in your life because if you're getting upin the morning and I mean, how many people
do we know that get up in the morning andas like, oh, I've got to go to work today.
Or,
Clare Mann (37:25):
Yeah.
And that's such a waste ofcreativity and, we can change that.
You know, there's always a priceto be paid, you know, in the short
term, you probably can't have thefour bedroom house and the two cars,
if that's what you want, you know?
But are you having that because youtruly want it or is it because that's
where you think you should be in life?
Do you know?
I remember I, I originally comefrom England and I remember it was
(37:48):
one of those times where my most.
And there was a guy that cameto see me about something.
It was some training initiative andhe was really burnt out and tired
and his job was too much for him.
And I said, yeah, how comeyou haven't even got children?
You know, it's like, you, you, haven'tgot a lot of financial outgoings.
that's not even your excuse here.
And he said, yeah, we'vegot this massive mortgage.
(38:09):
I said, well, well, you got a massivemortgage for, he said, I live in a
five bedroom house, two bathrooms.
I said, what you and your wife?
He said, yeah.
I said, what for?
He said, well, at that stage in mylife, that's where I think I should be.
And I said, what's the cost youpaid for this, because guess what?
Nobody cares.
They worry about theirwell, they're doing.
(38:29):
And I think once we get over that,it's most people aren't looking or
they're worried about their own lives.
People are afraid of, but if I do it,you know, Everyone else is doing this.
So I go along with something is whenwe stand up, we make the thing often
it gives other people permissionto shine and actually go with, if
he can do it, Steve can do it.
I can do it.
Steve (38:50):
So I'm just going to borrow a quote from Dr.
Zeus, be who you are and say what youfeel, because those who mind don't matter.
And those who matter don't mind.
Yeah.
I mean, all my good friends wouldn'tcare what the state of the houses that
(39:10):
I lived in or, my job it's, it's thepeople that aren't really your good
friends are the ones that judge you.
Clare Mann (39:16):
that's right.
Yeah.
I, I, somebody asked me that recentlyI've got an old 20 year old car,
which is an old land cruiser.
And he's great.
You could go across the Outbackin Australia on it people.
Stop me and say, can I buy it?
I remember it would come up to me andsay, so you didn't win the lottery then.
And I said, well, actually Icould probably go forward a Lexus.
And I really wanted it, but guess what?
I don't have to worry about people notscratching it, cars out that important
(39:39):
to me, this never breaks down and it'sbig and it's old and achieve kind of,
doesn't give it down when she's driving.
So they, people stay away.
But if I was in Alexis, I'll be free.
People are going to upset, but itdoesn't mean people shouldn't have
nice cars, but have the nice carbecause you want it not because you
think
Steve (39:55):
If that's your thing.
Clare Mann (39:57):
That's right.
Steve (39:57):
so I used to be a large animal vet and I remember meeting this farmer,
So it was actually worth another bit.
And the guy turned up and hewas in pretty rugged clothes.
And he turned up to his old theorysheet and we had a chat and stuff.
And, and then afterwards, as we weredriving away from the farm, the senior
vet said to me, he said you know, that guyis the owner of this real estate company.
(40:20):
And he's probably worthtens of millions of dollars.
that that's saying the rich mandoesn't have to show you how he's rich.
Clare Mann (40:28):
that's right.
I think that's absolutely.
I think you're upset.
You're right.
It's like Richard Branson, you know,he's there, hasn't got the flashiest
clothes on, you know, I'm sure hecould, but it kind of doesn't matter.
And that keeping up with theJoneses that used to be called,
but there's a cost to do that.
We doing jobs that we don't wantto do because we feel we should
have that to impress people wedon't actually even care about.
(40:49):
you know,
Steve (40:50):
amazing.
I psychology.
Isn't
Clare Mann (40:51):
yeah, absolutely.
And well, we're social creatures.
The one doubt about it, isn't thatwhere we are, we want to be accepted.
We want to be, but being acceptedby the people that really value
you for who you are, not because ofwhat you can afford or what club you
belong to, or, there's a lovely bookactually called lost connections.
And it's actually about thereal roots of depression.
(41:12):
And there was always the view thatit was due to reduced serotonin,
the happy hormone and whatever.
And then you find as they putpeople on antidepressants that
were fine for a while, then itkind of wore off and whatever.
When you really look at the researchthat's been done in the last 20 years,
you know, it's about loss, connections,lost connection to meaningful work,
lost connection to people that youcare about to financial security.
(41:33):
So your worry, whether, you know, youcan actually put a roof over your head
and it's all these loss connections.
Know these are thethings that we count by.
And if we give that away, because wethink we should, autumn must be doing
something else we are, as we startedoff the talk is we're adhering to myths,
but we are denying that we have choiceand we can't see where it's available.
Steve (41:54):
it's a fascinating clear and yeah, I really appreciated your inputs.
I think there's a lot, a lotof good stuff to take home.
Just before you go, a couple ofthings, one is where can we find out
more about you and what, you know,
Clare Mann (42:08):
sure, absolutely.
Well there's many websites I'vegot, but the two most poignant here,
I think is my, my general one tofive, my other websites, which is
Claire mann.com, which is C L a R E.
And they double n.com.
And then the best of choice is a bookthat is in audio and in digital form.
And it has 50 exercises for you togo through where you deny you have
(42:33):
choice, you don't have it, but alsothat chapter on, if you really think,
how are you going to change your life?
And it takes you through about 16 stepsyou know, get some big sheets of paper
and really plan how you're going to dothis and what you're going to give up.
So that is life myths.com life myths.com.
Steve (42:50):
just a quick question regarding the book, , how did you motivate yourself
to write a book in the first place?
Clare Mann (42:57):
I always had this interest in this existential
philosophy and the notion of choice.
It was when I immigrated towards.
And there's a great best.
Here's one.
I was well-established in the UK.
You know, I was teaching in a university,actually was teaching occupational
psychology and I had my local communityand my friends and I had, and a
mortgage on my flat and life was great.
(43:19):
And then I met somebody from NewZealand and then fell in love with
him and that sort of funny thing.
And I had to make a decision withinthe three months we were together.
Then he came back and I had atrip there and to make a decision
to come to us straining, or heto go there decided to come to
us.
This was about 20 years ago.
No.
(43:39):
And, but that was, you know, oh mygosh, I'm at the pinnacle of my career.
That was really unlike it.
Well, I thought it was, you know,but I had this great teaching job
and I was working in open learning.
So I was even going abroad to tripsto teach overseas students all paid.
It was great.
See the world get paid, but thenI thought I've got to weigh up.
There's something do Ireally want to be here?
They've met this great person.
(44:00):
You know, we just go and like I was onfire and until I made that change, but
making that change, I came to a country.
I didn't know anyone.
I didn't have a work permit.
How was it going to meet people?
I didn't have any income other thanletting him at my flat in London
and absolutely anxiety happened.
But then I needed a project.
And so I threw myself into writing a book.
(44:22):
I'd always wanted to writeabout the myth of who we are.
It started off by looking at that.
So I wrote, sort of started writing,ran that out of area and then
through my work in communicationand challenging myths and.
Challenging narrativeswe have in our society.
I am, we wrote it and itcame a couple of years back.
I had a myth that actually, ifI, it was safe to stay where
(44:45):
I was, it was rewarding, butI could have still been there.
I'd have a very nice pension now.
I'm sure I wouldn't be retired, but youknow, it would be working towards it.
But actually, you know, I'venever lived in New Zealand.
I've lived in Australia.
My partner is my best friend.
You know, we, redeveloped whatwe're doing and we work together.
And what do I remember?
You know what, I remember stayingsafe in a job for 40 years, you know?
(45:09):
Or did I take that risk?
And the end of the day,what do we remember?
Steve?
We remember relationships.
We remember the mate that was with us,talk to us at three in the morning.
Cause we had a problem.
We don't remember how much money we had.
and that Danish toaster.
Steve (45:22):
That was organizational psychologist.
Clear, man.
I found the conversation with Claire,particularly relevant to escape
the nine to five, because so manypeople are doing things because they
think they should be doing them.
Not, because they actually want to.
I grew up in a relativelyconservative south African.
We were always told you mustdo this, or you should do that
(45:44):
without any real explanation of why
we're told we should go to university,always should travel while we're
young, without looking at thegoals of the individual person
I was told, I must go to university andI did, it was beneficial for me, but it
is not necessarily suitable for every.
I was also told to go on a gapyear after school to the UK.
(46:06):
I did in hindsight, I was toomature and this was a complete
waste of a year for me.
This doesn't mean to say it isn't theright thing for another 18 year old.
Do what makes you happy?
You've got to follow your.
Simon Sinek, author of start withwhy became famous for his Ted talk,
we're explained people don't buywhat you do, they buy why you do it.
(46:29):
Based on the way our brain works, theway we feel about something is more
important than what we think about it.
That when given thechoice we follow our gut.
it's an exceeds in another talk.
What I'm interested in is what getspeople up every single day to do
something, maybe pay a premium, maybesuffer, inconvenience, maybe sacrifice
(46:51):
because they're driven by something else.
What is that thing?
What I've learned is it's that question?
Well, It drives us.
It inspires us.
So three tips from Claire for this week.
One, what would you do right now?
If you knew you could not fail theanswer to this will probably give you
a clue what you're meant to be doing,
(47:14):
to figure out what your own self-talk is.
What are the excuses you tell yourself?
When you say you can't do.
I think one of the most commonones is I'm just too busy.
And yet how many of us still manageto find time to scroll our phones?
Watch a show on Netflix andgenerally just fluff about.
And a final tip, find somethingyou really want to do and
(47:36):
introduce it into your life.
Even if it's just onthe side to begin with
this week's challenge.
Do what makes you happy?
Barney Stinson (47:45):
challenge accepted.
Steve (47:46):
Grab a big sheet of paper and write down exactly how you're spending your 168
hours per week, cross out all the thingsyou do only because you think you should,
or someone else has told you, you should
Replace these with things you actuallywant to do, including allowing time
daily for at least 30 minutes of exerciseand at least 15 minutes of meditation,
(48:08):
I guarantee this will not only makeyou feel happier, but help with the
decision making process down the road.
when you've got ahealthier and clearer mind,
Barney Stinson (48:17):
challenge accepted.
Steve (48:19):
I do ask you to be reasonable about this week's challenge.
I absolutely hate doing groceryshopping, but don't need to eat.
. I also love having a few drinks, butI'm not going to make that a daily
habit because not everything thatmakes you happy in the short-term
is good for you in the longterm.
Thanks for listening toescape the nine to five.
If you need help on your own careerjourney, be sure to join our Facebook.
(48:43):
Escape the nine to five podcast, wewill join a community of people with
a similar mindset actually wantingto make the most of their lives
and not be trapped in a meaninglessjob for the rest of their lives.
This week.
We're talking about myths.
We tell ourselves what we shoulddo and how to focus on spending
more time, doing things thatactually drive us and inspire us.
(49:03):
The link to the group is in the show.
Have you ever felt trapped in a job and you're only doing
it because you feel you should
Clare Mann (00:05):
What has influenced me to choose the career path to do what are
the messages I tell myself or otherpeople tell me when I look to change?
Or gosh, I'm 30, I've got a mortgage.
I ought to be settled down and well,I've been doing accountancy for a
while, even though you may not likeit well, do you really want to be
doing that for another 30 years?
So ask yourself first, the questionis, what comes up when I dare to
(00:26):
think about changing there's someridiculous percentage of people that
really do not like going to work.
It's like eight or nine people out of10, do not like going to work what a
total waste of one's creative capacityand, and how it influences people
(01:26):
. Steve: Have you ever been told you should get a qualification and
should get a solid job and shouldbuy a house and should get married.
and yet people aredrowning in college debt.
One in three people consider their jobs.
As meaningless people come trappedin their jobs to pay mortgages.
And last I heard 50% ofmarriages end in divorce.
(01:48):
Are you sick of being told, this is howyou should do things you've gotten into
this position because you've alwaystaken the advice of other people.
Your parents probably told youto get some training behind you.
Get a solid job, maybe even amortgage, and then you'll be happy.
I'm Steve oily, providing you with anepisode by episode guide to escaping
the nine to five while learningfrom people who've successfully
(02:11):
done it in our second episode.
That person isorganizational psychologist.
Clear, man.
She's identified myths.
We tell ourselves we should do andhow you can get rid of these and spend
more time doing things actually want.
She encourages you to removethe excuses and come up with
your best version of your life.
(02:31):
If you knew you could not fail.
She also untangles all the myths we tellourselves that get in the way finally of
have your take home challenge to help youon your journey out of a nine to five.
I joined the conversation, explainingto Claire why I started the podcast
The inspiration for the podcast wasactually talking to so many of my friends
(02:53):
and every second person that I talked tosaid, I, you know, I've done this degree
and I've been working in this industryfor three or four years and, and not happy
and don't know what to do with my life.
And I think people feel a little bittrapped potentially because , if you're
not happy when you're 21 who sort of feellike, Oh well, I'll study something else
or I'll do something completely different.
But when you're in your late twenties,early thirties, potentially there
(03:14):
might be a mortgage there, or
other commitments that meanyou can't necessarily change.
, for our listeners, can you justgive us a bit of a background as
to who you are and what you do.
I'm Claremont of course.
And, I've been a psychologist actuallyfor about 30 years, but I started off
as an organizational psychologist, butthat wasn't until I was about 25, 26.
(03:35):
I left school at 16 actually, andwas heading for the banking career.
And I found out very early on that thatwas not for me, that more pedestrian life.
And, and after about five or six years,I knew I was more of a people person.
So luckily I had some greatpeople around me that influenced
me to make those changes.
So can ended up with organizationalpsychology and working in organizations.
(03:57):
And then later on moved into moredirect work coaching and then
more sort of counseling psychologyand ran the communication piece.
And I've written and spoken a lotabout, , the choices we have where
we deny we have choice, or we can'teven see where they're available.
So that's where I sort of findmyself encouraging people to use.
Steve (04:17):
and I think it's very appropriate that we you mentioned
your book, which is myths of choice.
just remember it.
heading home and being quite resoundingas to, the message that we're
trying to, portray in the podcast.
So can you give our listeners a bitof a like a summary of, the book?
Clare Mann (04:34):
well, it really aligns with really what you
are doing with the podcast.
Because as we know, there's someridiculous percentage of people that
really do not like going to work.
It's like eight or nine people out of10, do not like going to work what a
total waste of one's creative capacityand, and how it influences people
being depressed most of the time.
(04:55):
So I wrote this book and I shouldn't,he came out a couple of years ago.
But I realized very early on in mylife that there were a lot of shoots,
a lot of aunts, a lot of musts, whichcome out of our culture, of course,
our socialization with our parents.
And we hear it all the time.
I should sort of, go and travel around theworld, have a great time because later I
won't be able to do it well, who decidedit all gets cut off at 25, you know?
(05:18):
And I ought to save moneybecause I'll forever be renting
and that's a terrible thing.
Not always, I must study hard and getsomething behind me, all these little
cliches aren't they, or, you know, Ishould go and visit my mother-in-law
because that's what good people do.
I
must go home for Christmas.
Steve (05:38):
it's, funny, you mentioned the, the shirts thing is, cause
I actually grew up in a, prettyconservative south African household.
And my old man's a teacher.
Very much of the mentalityis this is what you must do.
This is what you should do.
You know, you should get a degreeand you should go and get a
solid job and you should buy ahouse and all that sort of thing.
(05:58):
And people have different upbringings,but I think that does tend to
be a bit of commonality therein terms of people who end up.
I'm not saying necessarily a degree, youmight've done a building apprenticeship,
but you should get this behind you,even if it's not what you want to do.
Clare Mann (06:14):
That's right.
It say, you want to getsomething behind you.
You must, you should.
And whenever we hear those threewords to me, they like the red
sort of flat black sort of thing.
They really are telling us there's a myth.
The way I talk about this is amyth is an unquestioned assumption.
This is what we've always done.
It was good enough for your fatherand his father before him and all
(06:34):
that sort of melt since we're here.
, or your, oh, you fed lots of partners.
You can't be a person whocommits, you know, this sort of
interpretation of our reality.
And so I'm wanting to make it reallyeasy for people by dividing it
into a different number of myths.
And I've identified eight thatseemed to operate in our world.
But I'll tell you when I first came acrossthis, it's always a little backstory.
(06:56):
Isn't it?
To all our sort of interests.
No doubt while you're doing the podcast.
And I remember I must'vebeen about eight years.
And I don't think it's a romantic story.
Cause my mother called to validated it.
And I remember there was always a familysort of chuckle that used to happen.
And my mum used to say to my dad,Hey Vick, do you want tea or coffee?
And he'll said, I'll havethe same as you dear.
(07:17):
And my mum, depending on whethershe just wanted to make him the same
drink would say, oh, come on Vick.
You know, what do you want to know?
I'm not going to choose.
He'd go and this sort of thing.
And then she'd be, you know, she wasa bit of an argument the night before
in good spirit, I guess she'd say, oh,I'm having a gin and tonic, you know,
it was nine o'clock in the morningand you don't have to be sarcastic.
It was all this sort of, butmy father would not choose.
(07:40):
And I remember looking up andhearing my father say, Gabrielle,
I am not going to choose.
Obviously I've thought about it a lotsince, but I remember having these
very philosophical discussions with mymother, but I suddenly realized he wasn't
not choosing, he was choosing not to.
I got really interested.
It is, you know, we try to relinquishresponsibility for our choices, our lives,
(08:02):
our career options, our partners, whetherwe have children or not to someone else
or to something else like our cultureor stage in life or gender or something.
And I suddenly realized my dadwas relinquishing responsibility
when he was still choosing.
And I got really interested in, aphilosophy called existential
philosophy, what it is to exist.
(08:23):
And that gave notion to allthis, , notions of choice and where
we deny we've got choice where wecan't see, we see it's available.
So the myths of choiceidentifies eight different myths.
The group myth, the identity.
Morality selfishness myth commitment,myth dishonesty, all of these that
where we have an assumption thatthis is what things mean, and this
(08:46):
is what we think things should do.
So if we have a belief, for instance,a myth that if people really care about
you, they'd never forget your birthday.
When someone forgets our birthday,which is just a day and it
may not be important to them.
We put a huge significance on that.
And they're not really my friend.
They don't care when in fact itjust might not be important to them.
(09:08):
So the book is to try and get us to.
Look at where, particularly when welook at the nine to five and we start
to say, what has influenced me tochoose the career path to do what are
the messages I tell myself or otherpeople tell me when I look to change?
Or gosh, I'm 30, I've got a mortgage.
I ought to be settled down and well,I've been doing accountancy for a
while, even though you may not likeit is, well, do you really want to
(09:31):
be doing that for another 30 years?
So ask yourself first, the question is,what is comes up when I dare to think
about changing where does that come from?
Sometimes it may be negligent towalk out of that job immediately
before securing something else.
And it might reduce your options.
You might be able to on your ear and knowwhere to live, but usually assumptions.
It comes from otherpeople or our own fears.
(09:54):
But given that eight or nine people thatattend, don't like going to work, we
don't want to be that statistic becauselife is books too short and too long.
Steve (10:01):
no, that's really fascinating.
In terms of the.
Not only dispelling the myths, doprovide any sort of suggestions
for what people can do.
Cause I guess for somepeople in particular, they've
always lived by those myths.
This is what I should do.
And potentially you've been sayingthese things for years and then someone
goes and tells you actually hang on.
(10:22):
That's just , something else society hasbeen telling us for the last 200 years.
I mean like university probablydidn't exist or barely existed, I know
universities existed for longer than acouple of hundred years, but for most
people, university wasn't an option untilreally the last 50 to a hundred years.
So the notion that you should go touniversity is actually a very recent one.
And so for people that have alwaysloved fly, something like that.
(10:45):
So I should go to universityor I should get a solid job
or I should get a mortgage.
What advice would you have to themin terms of rethinking those myths?
And sort of creating a newpath for themselves going
Clare Mann (10:59):
Yeah.
Well, it's one of the things, one of thechapters is the myth that you can't change
because it is, but it's being realistic.
The fact that when we come to thinkabout change, say it's ending a
relationship, you know, and you'vebeen in the relationship a long time
and we try to think about that a week.
We've been in a job a long time.
We have responsibilities,we talk our way out of it.
(11:20):
I've got responsibilities.
My children are at a certain school.
You know, my partner wouldn't likeit is, is going through a process to
identify, you know, I get people topicture that they're in a bit of a box.
Okay.
And you're trying to get out of thebox and it's really identifying.
The problem is when we break thingsdown, often the problem isn't as big.
(11:42):
It seems so insurmountable.
I say, take a large sheet ofpaper and write down exactly.
How you're spending yourtime, your 168 hours per week.
So instead of going, I justwant to look at that Korean,
look at how you spend your life.
And then you, once you breakit down, you start to look at
how much is you should be told.
You've got to do, gotto visit the in-laws.
(12:03):
I should go to the gym.
Even.
I really would prefer to do somegardening, , but we go to the gym because
that's our cultural expectation at themoment so how, what do you, how do you
spend your time, dividing them intoenjoyable and enjoyable and in different,
positive or negative, active or reactive?
Are you choosing them orletting someone else do this?
And I get people to actually work throughwhat they do with their time and a
(12:24):
big chunk of that is going to be work.
So it's looking at askinga really big question.
I want you to imagine, andeverybody could do this exercise.
You have all the money in the world.
You, and it's not just your money, butyou can call on other people's money
so people can invest in your projects.
You've got all the confidence,all the contacts all the health,
(12:47):
all the energy all the time.
I know the people's time.
So in other words, you have no excuses.
And I say to people, what wouldyou begin to do right now?
If you knew you could not fail.
And most people go, but that madeyou put the limits on there's
the myths you say, oh yeah.
Well, what I would do,I'd go and do this job.
(13:08):
Well, maybe you don't want to do a job.
Maybe you could just do a job for twohours a week and get other people.
What is the outcome of the job you want?
Well, I like being aroundreally cool people.
I like being a bit creative or you don'thave to have a job for that member.
You you're the master of the universityor you've, you've got no limitations.
If you could do it without censorshipand worry, are you going to get it?
Is it gives you an idea of thesort of area that your compass
(13:31):
needs to be directing in.
So if someone says, honestly, Iprobably going to do voluntary work
in India, looking after orphan kids.
There's something there for youor I'm passionate about animals.
They might say, I wantto work in a sanctuary.
Okay.
Well at patch and rarely do peoplewhen people say, well, actually I
would be doing what I'm doing now.
I actually would say, I'mdoing what I'm doing now.
(13:53):
To me it's although I worked veryhard, a bit like a hobby, really,
because getting people to talk abouthow to have enjoyable, authentic,
meaningful lives, and the honor thatpeople tell me about their lives.
That's really cool.
So I definitely glad I left banking andactually went and did this cause it was a,
I think I would be very distressed if not,
Steve (14:14):
The point you're making in terms of, removing those limitations and, I
find a lot of people when you honestlyask them, they've maybe had a couple
of drinks and you honestly ask them,what would you want to do with your.
Life, most people will say thingsthat are actually very realistic.
I don't think most people want tobecome, you know, if I had all those
(14:36):
limitations removed, I don't have anyinterest in being the world's most
famous actor I mean, don't get me wrong.
I'd love to be the world'sbest sports person.
But, um, that is one example where theship has sailed, but, um, in most cases,
most I think most people people's kindof ideas of what they want to do with
work are actually fairly reasonable.
(14:58):
It's not being like all inthe sky dreamy about it.
It's giving peoplethe, idea to work with.
And then from there you can takeyour current reality and slowly work
towards making that your reality.
in my example, I could quit myjob and go podcasting full time.
And that probably wouldn't be a smartthing to do from the outset, but
(15:19):
there's nothing to say that I can't dothat on the side and slowly as, as it
grows make that a full-time reality.
But I think people manage to convincethemselves that, as you say, the moment
you start, saying your dreams, it's like,yeah, I would do that, but I've got to pay
the balls or I've got to do do this, or,
Clare Mann (15:39):
Yeah.
You know, you're absolutely right.
But you just said a moment agois like to be the world sports
player player or whatever, but thatship has sailed C is that a myth?
Now?
The reality is of course, you know,we know that there's for professional
tennis or whatever it might be.
You know, realistic.
I say really, you know,, there's withinthe limits of one's own physical health.
And if you're competing with a 20 yearold, who, you know, because of that just
(16:03):
that time in life and, and that littlewindow when we know there's accelerated
sort of progress potentially, but itdoesn't mean if that's really, what, if
you had a magic wand, you would do it.
Okay.
That was really somethingsomebody wanted to do.
How can I bring that tennis into my life?
I may not be on the circuit doing allthis stuff, but maybe I can coach people.
(16:23):
Maybe I can write a book about it.
Maybe I can go andteach in a kid's school.
Part-time teaching tennis, whateveryou're loving, and you can start doing
this now, whatever people's thing is.
You know, if they want to work inan animal, sanctuary is you don't
have to wait too free to do it.
Go and volunteer once a.
And go and do it, whatever itis, start doing it because it
was a German writer called Gerta.
(16:45):
I think he said boldness has power.
You know, when we go out there andstart doing it, it's almost as if I
don't know energetically the law ofattraction or whatever opportunities
rush to us, or we see thoseopportunities that we didn't see before.
Start with a really big vision,you know, with that vision,
we could have world peace.
And who was it?
Who said, give me a big enough lever.
(17:07):
And I would shift the world.
It was like Atlas or something.
He wanted to, you know, movethe planet sort of thing.
of people say, oh, if, if Iwon the lottery, I do sign.
So, I'm very rarely say if Isay, when, you know, he'll say
with my podcast is successful.
When my podcast is successful, Youknow, and people go here, but it
(17:27):
kind of there's that self-talk soself-talk is a really big thing of this.
Learn your own self-talk whatis it that excuses or haven't
got enough time, a lot of money.
I'm not young enough.
I'm not rich enough.
These actually, a lot of them areall excuses because within reason,
if someone else has done it beforewe can do it and often people use
(17:49):
other people's money, actually,
You've got to have what Icall the stacking shelf.
Job is keep doing what you dotill you can make that leap.
If we move too quickly or we start ourown business too quickly, we've got
to make money within a certain time.
We stopped being creative.
Whereas if we could start to investin those changes and do things, we
(18:10):
can start to see the opportunities,you know, develop that while we
still not have to worry about payingthe mortgage or the rent, nothing.
That's important.
Steve (18:19):
It's interesting.
I'm talking to different guestsfrom completely different
backgrounds and how some of thesame sort of themes come through.
One of the things you said earlierwas something along the lines
of, if you start doing somethingopportunities will present themselves.
I've had different guestssay very similar things.
And I've also heard written a book, whichsays people misunderstand motivation.
(18:42):
They think that you need motivationto be able to do something, but in
reality, by making an action givesyou the inspiration and the motivation.
So just by doing something will likelycreate the opportunity to, you know,
the person that goes to the sanctuaryand starts fall interfering one day.
They might actually have a part-timejob that has going, and next thing
(19:05):
they're doing, they're two days aweek and they're getting paid for it.
And then a year down the line, they'vegot a full-time job and I'm so impressed
with this person that they end upgetting a full-time job at the sanctuary.
but whereas the person who, whosaid, oh, I don't know if I have
time to, to volunteer one day a week.
, I've got to really like earn a living.
They just making an excuse becausethe reality is, is that especially
(19:27):
in the 21st century, most peoplecould probably do a job two or three
days a week and earn enough money tosurvive, at least in the short term.
Yeah,
sure.
You might not be able to go for youroverseas holiday and buy your flesh
clothes for a year, but if you're seriousabout making a change it is possible
to just do it.
Part-time I suppose.
Clare Mann (19:46):
yeah, no, I, I, I absolutely agree with you.
I think it's also, look at yourlife and actually see, do it.
Income and outcome go outgoings.
And actually a lot of people, Fritschera lot of money that could be vested
in that training and development,by investing in books and online
programs and retraining, you know, butthey still haven't gotten the money.
(20:07):
Gosh, it all goes when weactually break it down.
And we realized there was actually aspeaker in the UK, our member once called
the, he called it the latte factor.
Now we all liked going outfor coffee or most people do.
And it's great when it's a treat, butif people keep doing it where they just
constantly giving a fix and they'rehaving three a day, $3 each, so they're
spending $10 a day, $50 a week, youknow, $200 a month and 2000 a year.
(20:33):
It's soon adds up well to size andyou can really do something with that.
And that's just coffee and it startingto, I mean, I'm quite a minimalist.
And I like very muchexperiences, you know?
Cause that's what we rememberat the end of our life.
Not that we had the, onlybespoke nine slice Danish
toaster in the world, you know?
Cause everyone was meant to have that.
(20:53):
You know, who cares?
We actually think about,oh, do you know that time?
I went to New Zealand and Iwent and climbed Mount cook,
or actually someone said somethingto me, you think about this,
Steve . They said their mothergave them some really good advice.
It was a guy in his fifties.
He said, this is a bit though.
I would like to say is you travelwhen you're young, you sight.
See when you're older.
(21:14):
And I saw for the majorityof people that probably is.
Because they're worriedabout their reputation.
They don't want to get blinding thedrunken out three in the morning.
And I beat her, you know, but why not?
Who's looking really, butwe've all remember reputation.
I'm a lawyer, or gosh, I mightget struck off or, you know, but
actually it, another thing is a myth.
We've got to get this.
Have you found out the way beforeyou have children, but why have
(21:36):
children, if you don't make fun of it,
Steve (21:38):
funny thing is I actually did a trip with some mates three years ago.
We did, what's called the rickshaw run.
So we took, took talks and we paintedthem and Kiwi colors and we traveled 3000
K's of the space for a couple of weeks.
And bearing in mind that thattalked to Quinn about 50 Ks an hour.
So it was a lot of driving.
, so most of the people that were on thetrip were genuinely under 30, but we
(22:00):
actually bumped into, um, there wasan, an older guy, probably late fifties
with his 18 year old son who was there.
And we also bumped into a older groupthat were doing their own thing, but.
there's no, reason to say that youhave to go and stay in a flash hotel.
Clare Mann (22:17):
that's right.
Yeah.
And is it better when you've stayed insome sort of place that you get to know
the people that live there, think of the,when you've been traveling or whatever,
and you were sitting in the lounge.
So when you bumped into other peoplethat they, you know, backpackers or
something, or, you know, in the pubor something, we're very isolated,
when we go and stay in hotels,we'll be just keep to ourselves.
Whereas you tend tochat with other people.
(22:39):
And that's the stories that we remember.
You remember all the stories of the Tufts.
I think that's great.
I'll be, I do know Chucktalks, this was in Thailand.
Was it?
Or where was this?
Steve (22:47):
no, this?
is India?
Clare Mann (22:49):
Of course.
That's right.
So you've normally you've got a driver.
How would you be?
You actually drove them yourself.
Steve (22:54):
yes.
And I gave us a real appreciationof what it was like to be a local.
cause we ended up doing a,um, a trip where we did have a
driver after the ritual run and.
It felt so much safer on the road beingin an enclosed vehicle with proper
suspension and stuff, but I'm on the toptop gave, gave us a true appreciation
(23:15):
of what it was like to be a local.
Clare Mann (23:17):
That's right.
Absolutely.
And when we travel, youare more like the locals.
I mean, I've had the, thisis another thing about, you
know, the law of attraction.
What we give out is what we get.
For instance if we believe we're goingto be rich and successful, if we take
some steps towards it, we will be it.
But if we believe we're always going tobe poor, that's what we're going to do.
And it's, it's actually in everyphilosophy, every religious
(23:39):
teaching, every, personaldevelopment program, really.
And it seems to be that, why is itthat two people from a poor background
with an abusive father, one willgo on to be successful and rich,
and the other person will keep.
And it's often what peoplebelieve they're capable of.
You know, we have to makeour own luck in many ways.
(24:00):
Obviously there's often opportunityor whatever, but, you know, I've
gone to motivational talks andthe guy that comes from like
Puerto Rico, he was a street kid.
And I remember seeing him at aspeaker's talk once and he came
to America and he actually wasn'ta illegal immigrant back then.
It was probably 40 years ago andhe was locked under the truck that
was going across to America.
Just wanted to escape over then.
(24:20):
Of course he couldn't legallywork, but he got a job, I think at
a fast food joint, looking afterthe outside area, cleaning it.
And he thought I'm in America.
If I can't make it here.
And I lived on the street and Puerto Rico,whatever I'm going to make this work.
So he decided he was goingto be the best cleaner going.
And he was going to be waiting the tables,even though he was a cleaner and he
(24:41):
took great pride in this outside area.
And this fast food thing would beable to throw their junk out there.
And of course he was recognized andthen he got an opportunity to work in.
Then he just worked up the ranks andhe started to realize is that if we do
every job and every action is if it'sabsolutely our choice and we give it our
best, we've got a much better opportunity.
(25:02):
We're demonstrating to other people thatmight take a risk in us or, you know,
invest in us or offer us something.
But if we say, oh yeah,I'll really show up.
When I do what I really love.
People are going to go well,if he can't do it with a small
staff, how are you going to do it?
The big stuff.
So I think it's very important toact as if, act as if talk as if you
were already successful talkers.
But another little tip for peopleis ask yourself, what is success?
(25:27):
I heard a wonderful definitionby the late Earl Nightingale.
He said, success is the progressiverealization of a worthy idea.
The progressive realization, somethingwe are doing every day, moving
towards what I stacking our shelves.
We are moving towards.
Cause we're dreaming about our dream.
(25:48):
That's moving towardsprogression of a worthy ideal.
We've all got to decidewhat our worthy ideal is.
I'm sure that, you know, were you doingthe podcast, something you obviously
love and it's, you know, you know, you'remaking an influence and change for people.
I bet you talk about thatwith your wife over coffee.
I bet you're talking about itall the time is what people do.
(26:08):
Are they meaningful live yet?
This really interesting person,you talk to the very thing that
you do, like falling off a logis what we really love doing.
And you know, if we can turn that intosomething that gives us an income.
So therefore we can, we don'thave to spend our time doing other
things to get the income, to dothis in the long-term the better.
So, so work at what your where the idealis and then say, how can I move towards.
(26:32):
What is the worthy ideal?
What is it you want from that?
Well, I want to feel I've wasted my life.
I want to feel, you know,that I've done the best.
I didn't let myself down.
I want to contribute to otherkids knowing that they can be
successful to whatever it is.
But if we don't know where we'regoing, we end up somewhere else.
So work at what the worthy ideal is.
And then I always say you're movingforward or you're moving back.
(26:55):
Okay.
Let's just take a really simple thing.
Say somebody chooses to go on a diet, evenif the word diet is die with the teeth.
It's um, you know, it's but say they are,and they've followed some sort of regime.
And on day two, they pick up a bagof donuts and they start eating
and they go, oh, broken the day.
You know what most people say, Steve,they want to get back on the diet.
(27:18):
What do they say?
A lot of people go, oh,I'll start again tomorrow.
How much will go crazy?
Now they opened the six
Steve (27:23):
or It's ruined They might've actually been good for three weeks
and they were planning on doing it forsix months, but because they've had
one trade and stuffed up one side it's
Clare Mann (27:31):
And then they just keep stuffing themselves.
But actually they keep eating the donuts.
I don't even want the donuts.
I had two and a half and they feelsick, but they, because it's linked
to freedom and not being restrained.
Oh, what the heck?
And so now they've eaten50,000 more calories.
And when they start the diettomorrow, they wake up, you know,
all shook it up and whatever, themoment that we are back on track.
(27:52):
And I just use the diet as anexample is it's the moment you
stop eating and you think about it.
Are you putting something in your mouth sothat when they take a bite of the doughnut
and they go, I don't want the rest.
They are back on track because whateverway they do it, they're not breaking it.
And I think we wait tilltomorrow, we wait till the job.
(28:12):
We wait until the weekendbefore we can enjoy ourselves.
And it's a myth really,because , we've only got no.
all the moving forward to moving back.
So you just so much, you want tobe healthy and well, so let me give
you an example, not to show off,but I've done yoga for 40 years.
Do I go to classes of anhour, an hour and a half?
Definitely not occasionally to makesure I'm back on, but I decided all
(28:34):
that time ago, I took some greatinspiration about a short time quarter.
Of course I did when I was very youngand the woman said it's best to do
a little bit every day, then say,you're going to do it on the 1st
of January, never get around to it.
And so I decided, what could I do?
I could do five to 10 minutes,three or four times a week.
(28:54):
So I made a rule.
I'm going to do yoga five to 10 minutes,three or four times a week or more.
And it's become such a habit if I goa few days and I'm not my back starts
to wake, but it's only five or 10minutes and I've got a nice routine.
I do it at home.
Now how many years?
Weeks, months, years of I doing yoga.
(29:16):
But I only do five to 10 minutes.
Whereas if I had to wait to get inthe car, drive there, pay do the
course don't feel like it today.
And I think it's like that.
What can we progressively do?
Are we moving forward?
Are we moving back?
And whatever your dream is is, forthe listeners of this, the fact
that you're even listening to thepodcast means you're moving forward.
You're asking a question you've gothere, not by chances because something
(29:39):
is not working in your life anddispel the myth that you can't change.
Okay.
It may be difficult to dispelit, your job right now.
And it would be irresponsible potentially,you know, and it would use your choices
or your poor children would be outon their own, but work towards not.
If I get rich, if I get the inheritancefrom my family, you know, what can I do
(30:02):
now to move in the direction of my dream?
What am I prepared togive up, to get my dream?
Do we need the second car?
Do we need the really big house?
Maybe we can.
Steve (30:11):
I wanted to share this quote from Robert F.
Kennedy about materialism which I thinkis relevant to this week's episode,
too much.
And for too long, we seem to havesurrendered, personal excellence
and community values in the mirror.
Accumulation of material.
Things are gross.
National product now has over $800billion a year, but that gross
(30:32):
national product counts, air pollutionand cigarette advertising and
ambulances to clear our highways of.
It counts Whitman's rifle and speaksknife and the TV programs, which glorify
violence in order to sell toys to our.
You hit the gross national productdoes not allow for the health of
our children, the quality of theeducation or the joy of their play.
(30:55):
It measures neither our words, norour courage, neither our wisdom, nor.
Neither our compassion, norour devotion to our country.
Admissions, everything in short, exceptthat which makes life worthwhile.
just want to go quickly back to theyoga comment and the, you know, three,
four times a week, five to 10 minutes.
(31:16):
It's very similar to a bookI read called tiny habits.
premise of the book is that to create ahabit that you want in your life, rather
than, measuring it on, say, I'm goingto go to yoga for an hour, five times
a week and you end up not achieving it.
You make the habit, something really tiny.
(31:37):
And the example I can thinkof in the book is Casey's.
Every Workday, I'm goingto go for a run after work.
And so what he does is heleaves has shows by the door.
And when he comes home from work, he putshis shoes and socks on and his habit isn't
going for the run every day, his habit isputting the shoes and socks on and 90% of
(32:00):
the time from there, he will go for a run.
Sometimes he might just go fora walk cause he's really tired.
And they might be a one in 10 times thathe puts his shoes on and he decides, you
know what, it's pouring, throwing outside.
I'm exhausted.
I'm not going to go for a run, buthe's created a tiny and achievable
habit that is just we'll keep doingbecause he's actually putting on all
he has to do is put on his shoes.
(32:21):
If you make your goal, the simple,tiny thing, as opposed to this big,
more complicated thing, like goingfor an hour run or an hour of yoga
or whatever it is, it makes it.
less achievable.
And then less likely that you'reactually going to continue to do that.
Clare Mann (32:35):
I like that very much.
I think you're absolutely right, becauseit also links into what we know about
neuroscience and its neural memory.
If we look at habits, memory of the body.
I always use the example of, you know,do you clean your teeth at night?
Most people do
Steve (32:49):
one of the examples that he actually gives them.
The book is the, the, the tape andanother one, he goes as an example, is,
turning the kid along in the morning.
I think when I get up in the morning, I'mnot even thinking, and I just walk into
the kitchen, I click the kid alone andI'm barely even conscious when I do that.
He suggests actually linking ahabit to something simple like that.
(33:10):
So, you know, if you really need to do,in my case at the moment, I'm having
some problems with my upper back.
And so the physio is giving me somestretches to do if every morning
when I click the kid along, That'smy sort of reminder to do my five
minutes of upper back stretches.
It's something achievablethat you'll remember.
Clare Mann (33:27):
I think that's it.
Isn't it.
It's your body.
Remember?
We don't remind ourselvesabout cleaning teeth.
We don't set alarms, but itfeels weird if we don't do it.
So we might even get intobed and clean our teeth.
They're not going to fall out,
I always say to people, when youwake up in the morning, what's
the first thing you think of.
And people go, I reach my phone.
That is something that must stop.
Don't not be drawn intothe dumping ground of other
(33:48):
people's stuff is develop a daily mantra.
Now, when I wake up in the morning,the first thing that comes into my
head, because it's become a habit.
Does it take 10 days todevelop a habit 30 days?
You know, who knows?
Psychologists do say thaton average it's 30 days.
If we have a particularly difficultexperience or a very emotional pleasure,
but one, it can be much quicker, buton the whole, we have to keep doing
(34:11):
something until it becomes automatic.
As children, we have to bereminded to clean our teeth.
For instance, then it becomes the habit.
I have a habit that until I changeit to something else, I cannot undo
this because it is such a habit.
So I wake up, I come into awareness andthe first thing that comes into my mind
is what a grounded, glorious day filledwith love, opportunity and potential,
(34:33):
because I taught myself to do it.
And then somewhere in the house,there'll be adult tapping the tail.
Oh my God, she's up.
She's out.
Which reinforces it.
I say to people, write it down.
The three piece, the personal, thepresent tense and the positive,
you know, not sort of, I.
lose weight in the future.
That's future it's negative.
make bold statements, I am, I amsuccessful, enjoying life healthy and
(34:57):
fit, whatever it is, choose somethingthat works for you and write it down,
keep repeating it every morning.
And when you forget, start for another30 days, the idea also of the 30 days is
that in the end, you're not counting daysbecause you just do it now, when I wake
up like that and sometimes I have to getit ready early and go to Sydney in the
city I immediately propelled into Paris.
(35:20):
What grounded glory safety wouldlove opportunity and potential.
I, yeah, I don't want to get out.
It's a warm, it's a bit coldoutside, but that changes things.
Whereas if a lot of people areall good, they want to get up.
I don't want to go to work, you know, and, you're even getting paid to feel like
that, you know, you're getting your workbefore, you know, it change the script.
So develop a daily mantra.
That's going to be really important.
Steve (35:42):
I just want to make a couple of comments there.
Clear one is that from the tiny habits.
book, better, somethinghe suggests as well.
Not that there, those exact words,but he suggests when you get up in the
morning, have something, positive to say.
And I can't remember the details.
You'd have to read the book yourself.
But the other thing that I want to sayfrom people that are a bit more cynical,
and I was one of those people, as I usedto hear the positive mentality stuff.
(36:06):
And kind of roll my eyes and think this isa bit sort of wishy-washy and yeah, sure.
Say positive things, but the reality is,is that, you know, I might have a crap
day at work that doesn't mean to saythat you need to be positive a hundred
percent of the time, and it is Okay.
to feel crap when you've had a bad day,but there's something about, slowly
over time or as quickly as possiblechanging your mindset to be positive.
(36:29):
And one of the things that I noticedfrom doing some life coaching myself is
that you know, you were talking aboutthe shirts and the butts and the, I,
you know, I can't do this sort of thing.
One of the things I used to dois just subtly put myself down.
And it was only when I started.
writing it down.
Then I started to notice the pattern andnow it's very rare for me to put myself
down because I'm so conscious of it.
(36:49):
So, you know, I'd be doing somethingat work and it was something that
wouldn't go well, I'd be like, oh,I sort of mutter under my breath.
Or, you know, you're doing acrap job or something like that.
Until you become aware of these thingsthat you're doing, you don't realize
how much it's affecting your, um,and once it, and I noticed a little
bit different to what you were sayingwith the, the mantra in the morning.
But having experienced that to a certaindegree, I don't do a mantra or anything
(37:12):
in the morning, but I do genuinely believethat that's got to make a, a difference
in your life because if you're getting upin the morning and I mean, how many people
do we know that get up in the morning andas like, oh, I've got to go to work today.
Or,
Clare Mann (37:25):
Yeah.
And that's such a waste ofcreativity and, we can change that.
You know, there's always a priceto be paid, you know, in the short
term, you probably can't have thefour bedroom house and the two cars,
if that's what you want, you know?
But are you having that because youtruly want it or is it because that's
where you think you should be in life?
Do you know?
I remember I, I originally comefrom England and I remember it was
(37:48):
one of those times where my most.
And there was a guy that cameto see me about something.
It was some training initiative andhe was really burnt out and tired
and his job was too much for him.
And I said, yeah, how comeyou haven't even got children?
You know, it's like, you, you, haven'tgot a lot of financial outgoings.
that's not even your excuse here.
And he said, yeah, we'vegot this massive mortgage.
(38:09):
I said, well, well, you got a massivemortgage for, he said, I live in a
five bedroom house, two bathrooms.
I said, what you and your wife?
He said, yeah.
I said, what for?
He said, well, at that stage in mylife, that's where I think I should be.
And I said, what's the cost youpaid for this, because guess what?
Nobody cares.
They worry about theirwell, they're doing.
(38:29):
And I think once we get over that,it's most people aren't looking or
they're worried about their own lives.
People are afraid of, but if I do it,you know, Everyone else is doing this.
So I go along with something is whenwe stand up, we make the thing often
it gives other people permissionto shine and actually go with, if
he can do it, Steve can do it.
I can do it.
Steve (38:50):
So I'm just going to borrow a quote from Dr.
Zeus, be who you are and say what youfeel, because those who mind don't matter.
And those who matter don't mind.
Yeah.
I mean, all my good friends wouldn'tcare what the state of the houses that
(39:10):
I lived in or, my job it's, it's thepeople that aren't really your good
friends are the ones that judge you.
Clare Mann (39:16):
that's right.
Yeah.
I, I, somebody asked me that recentlyI've got an old 20 year old car,
which is an old land cruiser.
And he's great.
You could go across the Outbackin Australia on it people.
Stop me and say, can I buy it?
I remember it would come up to me andsay, so you didn't win the lottery then.
And I said, well, actually Icould probably go forward a Lexus.
And I really wanted it, but guess what?
I don't have to worry about people notscratching it, cars out that important
(39:39):
to me, this never breaks down and it'sbig and it's old and achieve kind of,
doesn't give it down when she's driving.
So they, people stay away.
But if I was in Alexis, I'll be free.
People are going to upset, but itdoesn't mean people shouldn't have
nice cars, but have the nice carbecause you want it not because you
think
Steve (39:55):
If that's your thing.
Clare Mann (39:57):
That's right.
Steve (39:57):
so I used to be a large animal vet and I remember meeting this farmer,
So it was actually worth another bit.
And the guy turned up and hewas in pretty rugged clothes.
And he turned up to his old theorysheet and we had a chat and stuff.
And, and then afterwards, as we weredriving away from the farm, the senior
vet said to me, he said you know, that guyis the owner of this real estate company.
(40:20):
And he's probably worthtens of millions of dollars.
that that's saying the rich mandoesn't have to show you how he's rich.
Clare Mann (40:28):
that's right.
I think that's absolutely.
I think you're upset.
You're right.
It's like Richard Branson, you know,he's there, hasn't got the flashiest
clothes on, you know, I'm sure hecould, but it kind of doesn't matter.
And that keeping up with theJoneses that used to be called,
but there's a cost to do that.
We doing jobs that we don't wantto do because we feel we should
have that to impress people wedon't actually even care about.
(40:49):
you know,
Steve (40:50):
amazing.
I psychology.
Isn't
Clare Mann (40:51):
yeah, absolutely.
And well, we're social creatures.
The one doubt about it, isn't thatwhere we are, we want to be accepted.
We want to be, but being acceptedby the people that really value
you for who you are, not because ofwhat you can afford or what club you
belong to, or, there's a lovely bookactually called lost connections.
And it's actually about thereal roots of depression.
(41:12):
And there was always the view thatit was due to reduced serotonin,
the happy hormone and whatever.
And then you find as they putpeople on antidepressants that
were fine for a while, then itkind of wore off and whatever.
When you really look at the researchthat's been done in the last 20 years,
you know, it's about loss, connections,lost connection to meaningful work,
lost connection to people that youcare about to financial security.
(41:33):
So your worry, whether, you know, youcan actually put a roof over your head
and it's all these loss connections.
Know these are thethings that we count by.
And if we give that away, because wethink we should, autumn must be doing
something else we are, as we startedoff the talk is we're adhering to myths,
but we are denying that we have choiceand we can't see where it's available.
Steve (41:54):
it's a fascinating clear and yeah, I really appreciated your inputs.
I think there's a lot, a lotof good stuff to take home.
Just before you go, a couple ofthings, one is where can we find out
more about you and what, you know,
Clare Mann (42:08):
sure, absolutely.
Well there's many websites I'vegot, but the two most poignant here,
I think is my, my general one tofive, my other websites, which is
Claire mann.com, which is C L a R E.
And they double n.com.
And then the best of choice is a bookthat is in audio and in digital form.
And it has 50 exercises for you togo through where you deny you have
(42:33):
choice, you don't have it, but alsothat chapter on, if you really think,
how are you going to change your life?
And it takes you through about 16 stepsyou know, get some big sheets of paper
and really plan how you're going to dothis and what you're going to give up.
So that is life myths.com life myths.com.
Steve (42:50):
just a quick question regarding the book, , how did you motivate yourself
to write a book in the first place?
Clare Mann (42:57):
I always had this interest in this existential
philosophy and the notion of choice.
It was when I immigrated towards.
And there's a great best.
Here's one.
I was well-established in the UK.
You know, I was teaching in a university,actually was teaching occupational
psychology and I had my local communityand my friends and I had, and a
mortgage on my flat and life was great.
(43:19):
And then I met somebody from NewZealand and then fell in love with
him and that sort of funny thing.
And I had to make a decision withinthe three months we were together.
Then he came back and I had atrip there and to make a decision
to come to us straining, or heto go there decided to come to
us.
This was about 20 years ago.
No.
(43:39):
And, but that was, you know, oh mygosh, I'm at the pinnacle of my career.
That was really unlike it.
Well, I thought it was, you know,but I had this great teaching job
and I was working in open learning.
So I was even going abroad to tripsto teach overseas students all paid.
It was great.
See the world get paid, but thenI thought I've got to weigh up.
There's something do Ireally want to be here?
They've met this great person.
(44:00):
You know, we just go and like I was onfire and until I made that change, but
making that change, I came to a country.
I didn't know anyone.
I didn't have a work permit.
How was it going to meet people?
I didn't have any income other thanletting him at my flat in London
and absolutely anxiety happened.
But then I needed a project.
And so I threw myself into writing a book.
(44:22):
I'd always wanted to writeabout the myth of who we are.
It started off by looking at that.
So I wrote, sort of started writing,ran that out of area and then
through my work in communicationand challenging myths and.
Challenging narrativeswe have in our society.
I am, we wrote it and itcame a couple of years back.
I had a myth that actually, ifI, it was safe to stay where
(44:45):
I was, it was rewarding, butI could have still been there.
I'd have a very nice pension now.
I'm sure I wouldn't be retired, but youknow, it would be working towards it.
But actually, you know, I'venever lived in New Zealand.
I've lived in Australia.
My partner is my best friend.
You know, we, redeveloped whatwe're doing and we work together.
And what do I remember?
You know what, I remember stayingsafe in a job for 40 years, you know?
(45:09):
Or did I take that risk?
And the end of the day,what do we remember?
Steve?
We remember relationships.
We remember the mate that was with us,talk to us at three in the morning.
Cause we had a problem.
We don't remember how much money we had.
and that Danish toaster.
Steve (45:22):
That was organizational psychologist.
Clear, man.
I found the conversation with Claire,particularly relevant to escape
the nine to five, because so manypeople are doing things because they
think they should be doing them.
Not, because they actually want to.
I grew up in a relativelyconservative south African.
We were always told you mustdo this, or you should do that
(45:44):
without any real explanation of why
we're told we should go to university,always should travel while we're
young, without looking at thegoals of the individual person
I was told, I must go to university andI did, it was beneficial for me, but it
is not necessarily suitable for every.
I was also told to go on a gapyear after school to the UK.
(46:06):
I did in hindsight, I was toomature and this was a complete
waste of a year for me.
This doesn't mean to say it isn't theright thing for another 18 year old.
Do what makes you happy?
You've got to follow your.
Simon Sinek, author of start withwhy became famous for his Ted talk,
we're explained people don't buywhat you do, they buy why you do it.
(46:29):
Based on the way our brain works, theway we feel about something is more
important than what we think about it.
That when given thechoice we follow our gut.
it's an exceeds in another talk.
What I'm interested in is what getspeople up every single day to do
something, maybe pay a premium, maybesuffer, inconvenience, maybe sacrifice
(46:51):
because they're driven by something else.
What is that thing?
What I've learned is it's that question?
Well, It drives us.
It inspires us.
So three tips from Claire for this week.
One, what would you do right now?
If you knew you could not fail theanswer to this will probably give you
a clue what you're meant to be doing,
(47:14):
to figure out what your own self-talk is.
What are the excuses you tell yourself?
When you say you can't do.
I think one of the most commonones is I'm just too busy.
And yet how many of us still manageto find time to scroll our phones?
Watch a show on Netflix andgenerally just fluff about.
And a final tip, find somethingyou really want to do and
(47:36):
introduce it into your life.
Even if it's just onthe side to begin with
this week's challenge.
Do what makes you happy?
Barney Stinson (47:45):
challenge accepted.
Steve (47:46):
Grab a big sheet of paper and write down exactly how you're spending your 168
hours per week, cross out all the thingsyou do only because you think you should,
or someone else has told you, you should
Replace these with things you actuallywant to do, including allowing time
daily for at least 30 minutes of exerciseand at least 15 minutes of meditation,
(48:08):
I guarantee this will not only makeyou feel happier, but help with the
decision making process down the road.
when you've got ahealthier and clearer mind,
Barney Stinson (48:17):
challenge accepted.
Steve (48:19):
I do ask you to be reasonable about this week's challenge.
I absolutely hate doing groceryshopping, but don't need to eat.
. I also love having a few drinks, butI'm not going to make that a daily
habit because not everything thatmakes you happy in the short-term
is good for you in the longterm.
Thanks for listening toescape the nine to five.
If you need help on your own careerjourney, be sure to join our Facebook.
(48:43):
Escape the nine to five podcast, wewill join a community of people with
a similar mindset actually wantingto make the most of their lives
and not be trapped in a meaninglessjob for the rest of their lives.
This week.
We're talking about myths.
We tell ourselves what we shoulddo and how to focus on spending
more time, doing things thatactually drive us and inspire us.
(49:03):
The link to the group is in the show.
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