The Haunting of Alejandra Book Club

Episode Transcript
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(00:06):
Hi everyone. This is Christina,and this is MJ and also Carmen.
Yes, this is a book Clubepisode where finally recording the episode on the
Hunting of Alejandra. Yes, ittook us six months, me six months
to read a less than three hundredIt's less than three hundred pages, isn't
it. It's like two hundred fiftytwo or something. I believe it is.

(00:28):
Yeah, but you have to alsolike count the rest of the pages
at the end, two fifty fourand the epilogue. Okay, okay,
yeah, that is how long ittook us. Me I finished way after
everyone. Was it really six months? Were you exaggerating? Didn't we start
reading as like in January or December? No? No, no, no,

(00:48):
no, no, I think westarted reading. I'm like, it
could possibly be six months. Soit was at three months maybe, Okay,
so yeah, that makes more sense. Anyway, I just felt like
very long that there was a momentwhere I accidentally just forgot to keep listening.
You know, It's a good thingbecause I'm saying that a lot of
people still haven't been able to getit from their library. That's true,

(01:11):
and so like popular Yeah, Ialmost because the Vampires of the North just
came out. I'm like, Ialmost really just like really want to do
that one, but we could dothis Silver Night Trade first. By the
time we finish reading it, like, it doesn't matter when it comes out.
That's true, You're right. Ijust want to start reading the other
one because I just got my Ipre ordered it on audible and it's available

(01:36):
now, so but I haven't sawI'm going to read the other one,
Silver Night Trade is, aren't I? Yes? But yeah, let's talk
about this book first. Just stillwarning for this episode. This is gonna
be like a very free flow ourthoughts of the book, and then a
discussion at the end. I didn'twrite an outlined plot by plot walk through
because I'm like, man, thesetake really long. They do though,

(01:57):
yeah, and it's a book,so it's even longer. So like I
just struggle with what to cut outand I leave too much of detail and
then I'm like, this is tenpages. So yeah, I did a
very short, very short one.So before we start, I do want
to give a huge sugar warning forthis book. If you've already read it
with us, then you know thatthis book require requires a huge as sugar

(02:24):
few trigger warnings. So yeah,did y'all cry? Yeah? Yeah,
okay, yeah yeah, but Ithe sugar warnings. I'm gonna give suicidal
ideation, depression, intrusive thoughts,gaslighting. Would you add anything else?
Emotional abuse? M yeah, letme see what else? Is there was

(02:44):
something else? Is there an abortionor miscarriage? Yes, there is,
there is there? Okay that too? So yeah, those are the trigger
warnings for the book. If youhaven't read it, if you already read
it, then you know and yousuffered and you were bad with us.
So I'm gonna give a first aspoiler free summary. Carmen, who's so

(03:06):
kind enough to write this for me, gotcha? But Alejandra is a stay
at home mother struggles with the darknessthat only she can see and that threatens
to consume her. During her darkesttimes, a crying woman in white appears
to her. With no support fromher husband, Alejandra seeks help and start
seeing a therapist, where she beginsexploring her family history. She soon learns

(03:28):
that her maternal ancestors also saw thewoman in white, Layarona. She also
learns that Layrona will not leave heralone until Alejandra follows La Na into the
Darkness and that's spoiler free. Ithink, yeah, yeah, everything's in
there, and from now on weare gonna include spoilers. So if you
haven't read it, then why areyou listening unless you love spoilers. I

(03:51):
love I have to watch her before. I'm like, hmm, should I
even bother with this movie? Letme see it? Yeah, yeah,
I will do the same thing.So so just to go on a quick
side track, you know how welaugh about me being diagnosed with ADHD because
you haven't. Yeah, And okay, so I think my friends are like

(04:13):
neurotypical or something not to say becauseobviously I'm not diagnosed, but whatever,
but I am and I am yourregenical twin and our DNA is the same.
So yeah, we're watching this show, which was really good, by
the way, it's a book series. What was the show called? What
Show Love Us? It's on Applethat Oh my god, it was so

(04:34):
good. But I kept begging themto tell me what happens, and they
would not, and I was like, man, if this was if Christina
was here, if she would tellme what happens. And I was like,
you guys don't understand, Like Ineed to know. I know,
and then like they like, we'restill gonna watch it, just tell me
please. Yeah, I can't beI cannot be at peace until I know

(04:56):
if the question is burning, I'mgonna find out. I cannot wait terrible
And I'm like, damn, Ijust how normal people watch shit? Yeah,
Carmen, it is normal. Peopledon't sit there looking for all the
spoilers. That's that's what I dotoo, And like I'm on the phone
look for spoilers. I'm watching likeI'm something. I got another episode.

(05:19):
I contained myself while I was sittingthere, And then they're like, Carmen,
you better not look at it thanup when you go to bed.
And what did I do? Theminute? I was like silo, Reddit,
that's what I think you read it. I'm like, how does this
end? Reddit? What does thismean? Red? Yeah? Yeah,

(05:44):
nobody does that. Yeah apparently notexcept people like us to know. Yeah.
Yeah, here for the cheesement,but like the next level. Okay,
so yeah, now we're gonna getinto spoiler, the spoiler version of
this book clip episode. There wassomething I was going to say before that,

(06:09):
What the hell was it? Wow? I've forgotten. Anyway, I'll
go through the beginning of this though. So we started with Alejandra. She's
in the bathroom and this fucking scene. I was like, this is triggering
right off the battle book. We'restarting like this, really, we're starting
strong already. Yeah. So she'sin the bathroom, she's trying to she's

(06:31):
in the shower actually, and she'sbleeding from her period. There's knocking at
the door, and she's like,oh my god, I just want like
a moment to myself, like whycan't I just shower? Oh? I
know that feeling. Oh yeah.I was like, oh, this is
too relatable. And then she rightoff the bat, like page one or
two, we start with like thesuicidal ideation thoughts. Right while she's in

(06:57):
there, do you think she seeslike a silhouette with the torn dressed But
she's like maybe it's just a towel, And then a voice is you want
to end it, don't you?Then she's she's brought out of that moment
because then we hear her stupid husbandMatthew say, who looks for dinner?
That's exactly how I imagine he said. It's like, oh my god,

(07:18):
should I become a voice actor?I know that last time we did a
book Club episode. We had thesame thoughts about you becoming a voice actor,
and really this moment just cemented healmost choked on my water. I'm

(07:42):
sorry, there's someone serious. We'reterrible. It's fine though. Yeah.
Everyone that loves as we can tellus well love this episode and everyone that
hates all the laughing and it's like, fuck, these girls get it's fine
anyway. That's literally his first words. And I was like, wow,

(08:03):
like right off the bay, weknew we hated him. Yeah, seriously,
red flag. And so she's beenin the shower for twenty minutes and
like she's who, why why don'the start dinner himself? M that's my
question. So she's clearly struggling,So she she leaves the shower and then
once you know, she gets down, she starts walking down She immediately starts

(08:26):
hearing like my mom, mom,mom, and she's like when will that's
stop? And I was like damn. And as she's walking downstairs, she
doesn't even get downstairs yet, andshe's she's having more intrusive suicidal thoughts,
like as she's walking down like obviouslyshe needs help, right, yeah,
And she's again pulled out of thesethoughts by the kids that are arguing,

(08:48):
and then Matthew just like I pictureMatthew sitting on the on the table scrolling
on his phone. The three kidsare like like literally bitting each other up
on the kitchen floor, and he'slike stop stop, no, please stop,
like not even looking at them,just scrolling on it. That's what
I imagine him doing. Yeah,for sure, it was. And we
learned that this is a new housefor her. They've only been there for

(09:09):
the whole family. They've only beenthere three weeks. They just left Texas
and they only left because Matthew gota promotion. And she's thinking about this
how like you know, it's allnew, and she missus Texas and she's
on the verge of tears. Andlike if you're like walking through your day,
you know, the verge of tears, like it's rough. Yeah,
And any not sane person, butany caring person would see somebody on the

(09:35):
verge of tears and be like,hey, what's wrong? But exactly,
but some people don't see. Yeah, they see that they don't care.
Yeah, or it's like they don'tcare. They care so little that they
don't even register it, like yeah, they just yeah, it's like invisible,
like it just doesn't matter. Andthat's what Matthew does because like she

(10:01):
yeah, she's having these thoughts,she's on the ridge of tears. She
like takes a deep breath, walksinto the kitchen and like Matthew doesn't say
any like I think you can tellwhen someone was literally on the ridge of
tears. And so she walked intothe into the kitchen. Someone would say
like, oh you okay, what'swrong? Do you need help? And
the first thing he says, it'sfunnily you're here. They're all great.

(10:22):
I would have lost my ship,like uh no, and I don't believe
in abusing your partners, but inthat moment that I would have decked,
I would face, I would havethrown hands, were like, bitch,
you're here. I would It's aquick little throat punch. They were like

(10:48):
x raun hinges in this episode,Oh my god, I think he's kids.
It's really earlier than we've ever recorded. Yeah, yeah, I think
a little delution. I only hadone cup of coffee and I haven't had
my med so damn. So heand she does tell him, She tells

(11:11):
him like, oh, well,you could have started dinner, and then
he tells her, well, Idon't know what you have planned for dinner.
You do all the grocery shopping.It's your job, Like, bitch,
give him P B and J sandwiches, Like who gives a shit?
Like come on, mmm, likeany snack to appease them, Like,
yeah, anything would have done.Open the fridge and see what can I

(11:35):
make a lot of this? Yeah, there's corn, dogs, microwaves.
And the worst thing is that shehad a labeled bag of chicken already and
veggies that were already cut up,like it was already ready in a bag,
Like he could have opened the fridgeand just saw that, like or
seen it, you know. Andso like when when he says that,
and she's just like thinking to herself, like this is what he wanted.

(11:56):
This is his dream, not mine. She thinks about the time she told
him that she often thinks about deathand that he told her there's no reason
for her to feel that way becauseshe has it all Like well, other
people who could only dream of shehas it, and so like she just
needs to be happy. Excuse me, you know, it's like that what's

(12:18):
it called that? That that soundon TikTok risk, Like, I don't
understand why that he Yeah, Ikilled the man and he walked, and
I don't understand why he couldn't.People are saying that he couldn't walk.
He walked, just fine. It'slike that would have been me. That
would have been me. Yeah,because wow, if someone says that to
you, that's you need to stopwhat you're doing. You need to go

(12:41):
to the doctor, you need tochange. Yeah, because obviously they're not
supported that. Right. What isit called weaponized incompetence or whatever it's called.
Now, Matthew is the definition.Yeah, yeah, underneath that,
it's Matthew from the Yeah. Yeah, well I was gonna mention, but

(13:01):
I've mentioned it once. We're discussingthe book a little bit more there because
there was critique about Matthew's character.Say that right now, Okay, well
we'll save it for us after this. As she's thinking that, she like
pulls all the stuff out to cookdinner and it's ready in an hour or
whatever, and like once they're sittingdown and eating the tension at the table
and saying, like you could cuta knife through it, as they say,

(13:24):
yeah, as they say, Iwould have looked him dead in the
eye while I was like cutting mywhatever, my piece of chicken with my
knife, be like listen, yeah, I would have actually made a play
for everyone but him. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. You know,
I'm not gonna like, I'm notgonna yell, I'm not gonna scream,

(13:45):
I'm gonna argue in front of thechildren. I'm just not gonna give you
your fucking food like will or I'mgonna make actually make the exact amount where
there's not even enough for him tomake his own play, like yeah.
And as she's thinking about they're atthe table and she's thinking about the moment
from earlier where he told her thatshe should just be happy, he interrupts

(14:07):
her because she looks upset, likewhy do you look so upset? You're
always upset? Like what do youYeah, and he again says the same
thing, just be happy. Justlet people feel their feelings, man,
Like, Yeah, you don't haveto be happy all the time. You

(14:28):
can It's okay, you're not.It's not not really impossible to be happy
at the time. It's perfectly normal. Yeah. I think once people realize
like happiness is just something that sometimeshappens, you can be content and that
sometimes happens. Yeah, they comeand go. Yeah I think it.
It took me like years to realizethat, but yeah, it's very true.

(14:50):
And he tells her that she choosesto be miserable, which then reminds
her of her adoptive family. Don'teven get me started on them. Yes,
when we can get started on them, we can do it now because
we will learn later in the bookthat they're abusive. We can save it
till then. Okay, if youdidn't write up for I did not write
I did not write up to them, so okay, let's fine, just

(15:13):
go on. Okay, So weget snippets up there, like morning routine
the next morning, right, cryingkids, terrible morning. We get more
thoughts of like she's like driving themto school or something, or she's picking
them up. I don't remember she'sdriving. Yeah, I think we get
both almost back to back, soI think she's taking them here, but

(15:35):
she's driving. Their arguing in theback, and she's like, maybe I
should just keep driving into our riverat night without them. They won't know
I'm gone. And they're crying,the arguing, the asking for me.
It'll just it'll be gone. It'llbe silent, like it'll stop finally,
and oh, I was just like, oh my god, this book it
was it was rough. And thenshe we learned a little bit more about

(15:58):
her, like she did have ajob before they moved, she was in
data entry, but like after thethird kid, it just made more sense
for her to stay home, eventhough she wanted to work. And how
many people are in this position,like, yeah, yes, and it's
so hard because she's she pretty muchgave up her dream for Matthew's dream,

(16:18):
and you know, she didn't reallyhave one, but just because she didn't
have one didn't mean that she wantedthis. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I'm sure we'll get more intoher journey with therapy a little bit
later, but I thought that wasinteresting. Basically she molded herself to be
the person that Matthew would like insteadof being herself from the beginning and kind

(16:41):
of set herself up in a way. But not to blame her for the
situation she's in, but I thinkit's something that the therapist also talks with
her about, like about having accountabilityand making her see like you can make
your own decisions. Yeah, itdoesn't have to be this way, even
though it has been this way,like it can change. Yeah, And

(17:04):
like reading the book, you getwhy it happens, you get why she
why she did this because of theterrible family situation that she was in.
She just needed to escape. Shenever really had a sense of who she
because I mean, as you're growing, you're always changing, right, You're
not who you were ten twenty years. You're making You're developing your own sense

(17:26):
of identity. And I think,I think like who you are as a
person kind of develops in the twenties. I know for me it did.
I know for a lot of peopleit did, because a lot of people
are like, oh, when you'rein high SCHOOL'M like, no, no,
you're still baby. Then you formwho you are in your twenties early
thirties. I feel like I'm formingwho I am now in my thirty thirties
too. Yeah, Like twenties andthirties is like the moment that you become

(17:49):
who you are as an adult.Yeah, And I think that when you
have a traumatic past and childhood andexperiences like that, those moments you there,
I think they're going to take longerto come. And instead of I
don't know, instead of she becauseshe was trying to find a way out
of her home situation and the safestand what looked like the best option was

(18:14):
Matthew. So you can see howher minded it was safe and it makes
sense. But then she's you know, she's trapped, but well, let
me finish what I wrote because it'salmost done, because it wasn't a lot.
So going back to her driving andthinking right as she's she's going through
her in her head about how shedidn't even want to move, she wanted

(18:37):
to keep working, she didn't evenwant to stop working. She's thinking all
of this and the message from Matthewcomes in about how he's going to be
late, and then she's like,are you serious. He's been gone,
he's gonna be he's gonna be gone. He's been gone, He's already gonna
be late, like he's never there, and even when he is there,
he doesn't help. But like maybeshe could, I don't know, have

(18:59):
a moment herself if there's another adultthere. Right, But now he's going
to be late, and so she'snot paying attention because she's thinking all the
stuff, and she hits the carbehind her or in front of her,
like rear ends the car in frontof her, and because she'd been so
distracted. And then she's like,great, this is another thing that I'm
going to have to explain to Matthew, like why even happened? And then

(19:19):
she's thinking to herself like why amI so bad at this? Like this?
She she keeps thinking like motherhood,living like this, this life,
it should be easy, it shouldcome natural to other people, but it's
so hard for me. Why isthis so hard? Because I'm terrible?
Because I suck, because I'm theworst? That negative self talk on a
loop? Yeah yeah, that mademe cry? Yes, that did?

(19:45):
It was it was right? Yeah? Yeah, I don't know who hasn't
had those thoughts, you know.I think people with depression have those thoughts,
people like my friends about with theshow again, yeah, or when

(20:08):
you have untreated mental diagnosis, Isthat you didn't know about that could cause
depression because you had no idea?Yeah, because you weren't you didn't know
how to manage your life because youdidn't know you need extra or different ways
of managing your life. Yeah exactly. Yeah. But yeah, once she
said that, I was like,oh my god, and it's so like
rough to see because she's like there'sthis new term that I've started seen popping

(20:30):
up, but single married momsy,Yes, when she's a single married mom,
she's she's doing all the work ofa single parent, but she's technically
married however. But it's like it'sit's what's the point, what's the point?
You're you're a single parent if he'snot there, if he's not helping
you with the kids, whether itis for school work, emotional support,

(20:53):
because like I know, most ofthe moms carried the emotional weight of the
family. Like, not only doyou have to handle your emotions, you
have to handle your mental load,yeah, the mental load. Yeah.
And if a man isn't helping youor your your spouse, it doesn't have
to be a man. But likeyour spouse is not helping you, you're
you're pretty much a single parent eventhough you're married. But you're a single

(21:15):
parent. You're doing everything. It'seven worse because when you're like, say
you're divorced, because you don't knowwhen through all the ship and you have
some nice to yourself because you're sharingcustody. You don't have that as a
single married parent, don't. Youdon't. And it's like it's like,
be you're not alone, but you'rethe loneliest you've ever been. Yep,
yeah, yeah, I felt forher. It was yeah, yeah,

(21:37):
it's I'm telling you this would Yeah, it's just makes it makes me so
frustrated. I was so mad.I wanted to jump in there and just
throw hands with it's just fucking punchhim in the throat. And as she's
leaving this accident scene, she seesthe woman from the shower again. She
thinks she does, but then shekind of talks herself out of it.
They get home, it's the sameshit again. And then the oldest girl,

(22:00):
Katrina, so she asked for likea bedtime story, and this she
tells her the story of Layrona,and she's like something, I think seeing
the woman in white that she thinksshe's been seeing but she's not sure maybe
like inspired her to tell her thestory of La Rona. But then like
a little Katrina is like scared.But it turns out that she's been seeing

(22:21):
this woman yea, which I'm skippinga lot because I think we learn that
a little bit later, but likein between, I think there's a point
where Alejandra realizes, like I reallyneed help like like I really actually need
to seek help, and she goesand she finds Melanie Melanie, and I
love Melanie. I mean too.I'm like I was like, how do
I find a therapist? Slash helerlike, hey, yeah, how do

(22:45):
I find a Melanie? But yeah, Melanie is the therapist that she finds.
But she's also so she's like veryopen to like she understands the cultural
background the Alejandra comes from because wasadopted it into white a white Christian family,
and Alejandra her background everyone is Mexican, but I don't think she knows

(23:07):
much about them until she does,like an ancestry test, you know,
finds her birth mom that way.M hmmm. Before they left Texas to

(23:57):
go to Philadelphia, she had juststarted reconnecting with her mom. Another reason
she didn't want to leave, findingthat community that she longed for for so
long. Because on top of likebeing a single not yeah, I was
gonna say a single mom, singleman, but yeah, on top of
being you know, a new parentwith that many kids, a newborn or

(24:18):
yeah, the baby's like not evena year old, right, I don't
I don't remember how old he is, but he's little, yeah, or
she's sorry, the baby nine monthsor something. Yeah, yeah, it's
like it's a little baby. ThenKatrina's like in her close to tween,
right yeah, and then the otherone is in between. But like three
kids, there's a new like anew baby in the mix. She just

(24:41):
finally got the community she's so longedfor because she was adopted and she already
felt like she was missing a partof her. She finally finds her and
like you know, some some adoptivepeople, it takes longer to connect like
that with a parent, but sheshe was like a little reserve, but
almost all in right away. Shewas very happy to find her mom,
and then that gets taken from her. But then she's also in this new

(25:04):
place and she doesn't want to tellher mom, her bio mom, you
know what's going on with her,because she's like, I just met her.
I don't want to scare off.She can't talk to anyone about the
thought she's having either, So it'sit's just like a it's a terrible it's
a terrible situation. And to me, I don't know, but like I'm
speculating that Matthew didn't like the factthat she had someone else in her corner,

(25:27):
and it almost and it almost feltlike his move to Philadelphia with something
like for what does it about familial? Yeah yeah, yeah, I think
if it wasn't it worked out thatway anyway for him, for him,
for him specifically, because there's apart where she tells Matthew she learned about

(25:48):
her mom and she's going to meetwith her, and he's like, why
we're all the family you need?Yeah, I need to not make it
voice, but that's what it cameoff as to me, like he was
like I selating her so he couldfurther control her. Oh that's what I
was gonna say. Yeah. Soit goes beyond like weaponized incompetence and she's
being like a useless man. He'slike an abusive, controlling man. Yes,

(26:12):
m but tries to not come outoff that way. Yeah, like
covert abuse yeah, uh huh.Yeah. So where it took her so
long to realize what it was becauseshe was in such a dark place.
But once she starts going to seeMelanie, she starts seeing like, yeah,
I don't need this, this isI can change my future. I

(26:34):
don't have I have ag yeah yeahyeah, And and it's scary because she
had not been working for so long, but yeah, the going through the
therapy and then oh, another thingthat was like different about like Melanie is
that she tells her about, youknow, the figure she's been seeing,
because there's at one point there's nodenying that this figure is actually something that's

(26:56):
hunting Alejandra. It's like she seesit here and there, but then she
sees it in the backyard or something. Yeah, and she and the therapist
office that one point, yeah,but isn't at the moment she sees it
and like the kids closet. Butthen she's like, I need to tell
Melanie about this, yeah, becauseshe feels like it's escalating, and yeah,

(27:17):
Katrina's closets because she's the one thatsees her. Yeah, Katrina tells
her she still saw it too,and that's when she's like, I'm needs
to tell Melanie and instead of justmissing her or anything, because Melanie understands
this cultural background and because she's like, yeah, I believe you. This
is not just your like trauma.This is like the hunting, this is

(27:41):
this is something else. And theylook into it and they're like, oh,
let's yes, but like I thinkwe skipped a part where we go
back to her first ancestor that madethe fact of this thing. Yes,
we do, Yeah, because thebook goes back and forth, and so
as Alejandra has seen it, wesee snip it of what it actually is.
But Alejandra obviously doesn't she didn't fullycomprehend. Yeah, but we do

(28:04):
get a more info. I thinkit's like as early as it's early on.
Isn't it after her like first bakeDrone? Yeah, the second Chester,
isn't it. I want to sayit was the second, but I
can't even find it right now.Yeah, Yeah, it's on. It
starts on page thirty four mm hm. And it's Mexico, fifteen twenty two.
Yeah. And the ancestor was atsim At. This part was wild

(28:29):
too, the whole mindel That's whyI finished his damn Books of Fasca.
I couldn't stop reading. And Ilike how the author did that whole thing
that this creature was from like anotherdimension or universe, that when this universe
or dimension formed, it like itwas like pushed into it and stuff.

(28:52):
Yes, so I thought that wasreally cool. It takes place in fifteen
twenty two in Mexico and her andTire village and people are being what is
it called, colonization is happening.Yeah, yeah, colonization is happening,
and she has to stay behind asher sister, her baby, and her

(29:14):
father escape. The chapter was amazing, but it was also very rough.
Yeah. Yes, because then she'sthen becomes like a I want to say,
like a like a slave to Ithink, and slaved to one of
the colonizers I forgot his name,Sebastian. Sebastian, Yeah, and Sebastian

(29:40):
is married and all this stuff,but he's still like abusing at sea,
like sexually, and she becomes pregnantwith Sebastian's baby. Yes, and this
is where this creature thing, Idon't know what to call it. It
comes off as a vampire but alsoas a cool like the way the description

(30:02):
is like of a ghoul, likeyou know, it's like almost skeletal and
has like the skin really forming theshape of the ghoul. But then the
way it like feasts on things,it's almost vampiric and the way it feasts
on negative energy. So I don'tknow what to call it. Welcome to

(30:26):
our little hunted break. We wantto give a shadow to the SPOOKI supporting
us on Patreon. Thank you somuch to Mickey, Brianna Herzon, Alejandro,
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is just listening to our episodes here, so thank you for doing that.
Fuck it's a combination between like avampire a demandor and Colin Colin. Oh
yeah, oh sorry I met Colin. Are we doing the shadow? Yeah?

(31:55):
But like if there was a scalelike what I don't see, Okay,
he could because he's like an energyvampire. Yeah, and she is
too, and feed off it's notyeah, it's not energy, but it's
like negativity. Yes, the emotionalvampire in what we do in the Shadows.
That is Colin's girlfriend at one point. That is who Yeah. Yeah,

(32:19):
I was gonna say like almost likeuh, what is that legend?
Oh my god, she's in thetrees and shit and she's like snake ish.
She was in one of Syria's booksand we've done an episode on her
and they cannot remember her name.Oh yeah. By I feel like it

(32:46):
was like at that took me amany Yeah, I know, I was
completely drying to blank. I feellike it's a mixture of that and like
a witch like like yeah, it'slike almost I guess that that too.
That too. It was like Ican't say it, how it how it

(33:07):
feasts on like feast on babies,babies. Yeah. Yeah, And I
do like the ending of this chapterbecause I was like really happy the way
Subastian. I was like getting themget up. I was like, you
want to go through it, oneof you? What happens to him?
Oh? Hold on. It wasjust all you're probably on the page,

(33:29):
right, and I'm not on thepage. You were still on it.
Say that this is like basic,especially we're seeing the creation of this thing.
Yeah, yeah, the creation andit morphs into what we know as
Laurona. And I just thought thatwas beautiful because you see her name or
the because I feel like Eatsy herselfis Laurona and it takes her form her.

(33:52):
Yeah yeah, and then like yeah, okay, so before his end,
I do remember that at Sea wasI don't know what happened to her,
but she was like wishing for deathor something or for her the baby
inside her to be killed, andthen this thing like hurt her or like
felt her, yes, felt herplease, and was like because the baby

(34:15):
in her is as a result ofSebastian assaulting her, right, yes,
yes, And she was like shedidn't want it, and she also didn't
almost like gave up on life,and she was like making a pact with
this thing, and the pact wasmade and this thing took the baby out

(34:39):
of her and ate it. Yeah, I think so, yeah, because
I so. To anyone else,it looks like a mother killing her child,
like, but really, what ishappening is that a horrible situation and
she needed out, she needed out. Yeah, and so it's like a
like a yeah, I mean arewriting of like yes, yeah. But

(35:01):
in the pact. One of thedeals in the pact was that this thing
had to go after Sebastian two andand she yeah, and she And at
this time Sebastian had moved his wifeand his child from Spain. Yeah.

(35:22):
I don't remember how old his childwas. M I don't remember either.
It was like it was either ababy or a oh his two Okay,
I'm on page forty two, andit says, with an oil lamp hand
taken from the front of the house, he crept towards the room where his
two children slept, two kids thathe had with his wife, and he

(35:45):
like goes throughout his house and hediscovers one by one that his family has
been murdered by this thing. Hethinks, I think he thinks it's one
of the It doesn't I don't thinkit says who he thinks it is.
But he's someone someone indigenous. Yes, yes, yes, but he doesn't

(36:07):
have like a thing. And thenhe's on page forty three revenge she would
have to wait. So that's what'sgoing on in his head. He's he's
like contemplating revenge to whoever, whoeverdid this, Okay says before he takes
another step to door slump behind him. He turned around and a slashing pain
seared his hand, causing him todrop the lamp. And this is at

(36:29):
the time where the creature starts attackinghim, and it says his peripheral vision,
he saw a figure standing outside.It was an indigenous woman. She
stood with her clothing and hair drippingwith water and a large grin on her
lips. Her entire body had theluminosity of the moon. Her eyes met
his, reflecting his cruelty back tohim. Then she walked away and with

(36:52):
the shirt steps before he could screwhis neck farther from the darkness to follow
her. With her eyes, ashadow emerged from behind the door, and
in its hands it held his horsewhip. Oh, which I think he used
the horsewhip to like beat the theindigenous people they enslaved. Yes, so
the creature was like, Oh,they're gonna do it to you. And

(37:15):
then he calls it a demon mhm. On page forty four. Oh
she's whipping him. And yeah,but here we we get we start seeing
how the being I hate the wordbeing because I sound oh Bean, sim

(37:39):
still stuck on that which is ademon, because that's like the closest thing
we're going to get to it likeencompassed everything. And and we start seeing
this demon I cat dec We startseeing this demon in the beginning of and

(38:00):
us like line of ancestry, andand then we we see generation by generation
how this thing attaches itself and affectseveryone. Yeah, it's generational trauma,
Like yes, it's just amazing theway she made it into a demon,
because you can trace people's it goes, it travels. That's why it's a

(38:21):
word. That's why it's a thing. Generational, Like it's real. And
you know, for her to goall the way back to colonization then the
Mexican Revolution, Like oh yeah,and I love that because there's so much
scientific research that shows that generational traumaactually changes your genetics, so you could

(38:43):
actually trace it scientifically, I mean, I mean not just like psychologically,
but also there's like mutations in people'sDNAs due to generational trauma. Yeah,
yeah, just so. Yeah,the way that it was depicted through this
thing brilliant. Yeah, and wesee we literally see how it's affecting every

(39:06):
single one of her ancestors and thenhow this thing like thrives off of all
the trauma. Yeah. I loveit. Yeah, it's thought of it.
It's like ecstasy to it. Iwas like, yes, and yeah,
I literally so grossed out. Also, like I think a really good
personification for narcissistic abuse, because this, this this demon creature thing is a

(39:30):
narcissist. I mean, it's justit's manipulative, it's abusive, and it
feeds off of it's victims. Itwants it's yeah, them to stuff.
Remember how mad it was when Catherinebasically said like, nah, I'm not
doing this, and I mean I'mobviously and that's defining the process of her

(39:53):
giving yeah up for adoption. Nah, I don't want to do this.
Yeah, but that was her wayof like stopping, you know, the
cycle for herself, and she stoppedthere for herself, but not for future
generations because she didn't even she's notgoing to think about that it was what
seventeen, But then we start seeingit take hold or start planting its little

(40:17):
seeds into Katrina and it starts,Yeah, it really does. But like
if you think about it, likeyou know, starts start early, starts
there early, it does. Andhow many kids I remember, like,
especially in our culture, like frombeing as young as I don't know,
as soon as you could walk,you have like comments told like muhs and

(40:42):
stuff like that. And that isgenerational trauma, because that is shit that
has affected all of us as women. Our mothers are grandmothers and all that
stuff, and especially yeah, soingrained and all that is abuse in trauma.
And we get taught it as assoon as we're born, and people

(41:02):
and our family probably talked about iteven before we were born, honestly,
and the womb in the womb myeah, But through therapy, Alejandra starts
seeing like we need to beat thisthing. This thing can't do this to
us anymore. We're gonna end it. And and then Matthew starts seeing a
change in her too, and he'sa little bit about it. Of course,

(41:27):
of course I didn't write down anylike direct quotes of what he says,
but it's more of the same,like he's just the worst. Yeah,
he sucks. And then there isa point where Melanie the thing actually
physically manifests itself. And think she'sin alejanderson Will's room when this happens,
and so then she talks Melanie aboutit. Melanie comes over. I wanted

(41:50):
them to hook up. I thoughtthey were going to. They don't raise
serious Melanie, she's a therapist.There's a I just thought that they would
liked each other, and I don'tknow that. I think I saw that
she's a social worker, so Ijust thought they were. There's a pamphlet.

(42:12):
There's a pamphlet. I'm sorry,Karmen is a social worker. This
is where she still worked up aboutthis. I am that would have been
a violation. Cute couple, Areyou stop it? I'm not pulled through
the screen and punchy right now.There's an ethical violation. Clinicians and therapists

(42:36):
aren't a power position over their clients. Okay, well, then I hope
there'd beffs now that that would alsobe an ethical violation. You can't be
friends with your clients, don't I'mnot. Yeah, there's a pamphlet when

(42:58):
if a client tells you that theyhad like a relationship or sex with their
previous therapists or something like that,you have to give them a pamphlet that
says therapy does not involve sex.Oh my god, I didn't know that
people lose their licenses over that.Oh shit, Okay, well then I
take it back as they should.Oh yeah, you're right, you're right,
it is wrong. I just thought, and that is why I should

(43:21):
pass my exam on the twenty five. I believe in you that that was
an a for me. Was notThat was not not a good lesson on
the Code of ethics. It wasit was I needed it obviously. But
Melanie comes over and not like ais it like a cleans just like a
cleanse cleanse? Yeah, and they'rethey're gonna but it doesn't like it works

(43:45):
maybe a little bit, but thething comes back. Then they need like
a better plan. And so thenKatherine, Kathy you know, comes over
from Texas. She's like, no, my daughter needs me. Because Kathy
also sees the thing. Yeah,oh my god, woman, that had
scene when she sees it in thein the baby's room that I was like,

(44:07):
damn. And then it's not horror. Do you have the sentence near
you? One of you? I'mtrying to find it. I am what's
it called? On Francis's Oh,that's where I am too, because I
think it had been like a badnight where Alejandra one it was a bad
night where they saw the thing orsomething like that, and then Kathy knows

(44:27):
something is wrong. She feels likesomething is wrong, and then a handa
calls her, but Kathy has alreadybooked her, Like yeah. The one
thing I don't like is that Alejandrakept on making her kids sleep in different
rooms. I'm like, this thingis out there. Why aren't you having
your entire family and run one roomso you can protect them. I was
so mad at her for that.I was like, girl, yeah,
sleep on the floor, have yourkids sleep on the bed, But why

(44:51):
are you? But I wonder ifthat would have scared the kids even more,
you know, like maybe she's tryingto maintain a sense of normalcy.
But then I also feel like itwas just like it was too much.
It's like you can't get to yourbabies in time. Also true, it's
hard. I'm like, you knowwhat kids are gonna do? A sleepover?
No? Nothing's wrong. Everybody getsmarshmallows and watch movies. I just

(45:14):
want some family time, no reasonkids. Okay, I found it.
It's so Yeah, she sees likea woman where the newborn sleep, and
the woman is like an outdated we'rean outdated address from the fifties, and
she can't tell like the women's featuresfrom far away. But then she gets
closer and closer, and now I'mgoing to start eating shit, she said

(45:38):
to herself. Kathy took a bigstripes to reach the end of the hallway,
her heart pumping hard. She neededto exercise more at her age.
Sorry, Kathy stopped in front ofthe glass wall where you can view the
newborns. She gasped. A hideouscreature in the guise of a woman in
white stood among the babies. Andit didn't wear a dress, at least
not in the real sense. It'sdress was the patrick of dead flesh and

(46:00):
fabric kinging over its exposed bones.Its eyes had a glare of greed while
bloody saliva drink from its mouth.And then yeah, and then she calls
her help, and obviously the thingis gone. Yeah. When someone gets
there and they're like, girl,you need a vacation. We also didn't

(46:22):
mention just because we skipped a bunchof like the recap. But Katy's own
mom, obviously we know Alejandra's wholeline of ancestors have been affected by this
entity, this demon. But Katy'sown mom, it was terrible. The
thing took her. The thing won. Oh. I was going to ask
if because I didn't remember if itwas Katy's mom. The when I was

(46:43):
like hooking up with people in thehotel, that was Francis. Yeah.
Yeah, because she needed to feelalive. She and again it was the
depression, postpartum depression, and thenyou know, prolonged like untreated postpartum depression.
And then she just like left oneday and then she but she left.
Okay, I forgot what happened,and she does end it those like

(47:05):
thoughts that happen. She actually whatdid she do? She she walks into
the river. She walked into theriver. Yeah, and so so Kathy
herself never never knows finds out whathappened to her mom. And then the
same thing with Kathy's dad was likeweaponized incompetence. The same thing wouldn't help,

(47:28):
but dad was more like he wasjust working and working, and he
left the kids with his family andhe was in and out, so it
wasn't even weaponizing in cuppints, soit was just like he was not there.
Yes, it's like when he's marriedto Francis. No, even when
he was married to Francis, he'slike a work because he wasn't in the

(47:49):
midd military comes and goes, sohe's not there. And then when he's
back, he just gets her pregnantand he goes again and comes back and
goes and then uh, then she'slargely absent. He's also largely absent,
and she sees him with another woman. Yeah, yeah, yeah, this
is like the more Latino version ofwhat Matthews doing. Yes, But and

(48:19):
Kathy, when she's giving birth toAlejandra, she hears the thing, but
she doesn't really register it until thatnight when she sees it again at the
hospital and that's why she books theflight before even Alejandra calls her, and
then you know, then they goover there. They have a plan to
get rid of it, but itinvolves Alejandra temporary her harming herself because that's

(48:43):
what the thing wants, so theyneed to like lure it in. But
they're only luring it in. ButKathy doesn't want to do it. She's
scared because you know, she's shecould possibly lose as like no, because
this thing is gonna keep, it'sgonna it's gonna take little Katrina and then
her children if she has them inthe future. It's not going to stop
and needs to end here. Andso she like cuts herself and then like

(49:04):
pushes that thing inside her basically right, yeah, it's pretty graphic, it
is, but but yeah, theyI mean they in the end, they
win, right, And I likethe ending where she just like, yeah,
yeah, she does this thing thatshe's recovering. And then do we
like get a little fast forward andshe does like leave Matthew, right,

(49:28):
yeah, I does. I thinkshe like I don't know if she like
fully says I left Matthew, butlike I think she talks to him about
like I think something like that.Yeah. And then okay, so I
read like at the end, becauseI have some things that we like didn't
cover that the creature says that she'snot the the youna the woman are that

(49:52):
she makes like a separation that that'sthat's what I said at the beginning,
that se and the thing takes herform. Oh my bad, keep saying
its yes, Noel, Noel.I think it's did her name all wrong?
And then where's the other one thatIsrael? Yes? And then what's

(50:14):
it called? Oh oh oh theancestor, the ancestor that fought with us,
and she gives them the secrets?Mom? Yeah, mom? Was
it Francis's mom or grandmother? Ithink it was her grandmother? Oh my
bad? Okay, yeah. Ithink she figures out because she her story.

(50:38):
Her chapter was amazing, I thinkmy favorite. Yeah, we forgot
to mention this whole thing. Andshe meets Amelia, who we talked about
on his story as unknown. Ohmy god, yes, I texted you
right away. You did. Yeah, that was an amazing chapter. She
ends up falling in love with Sapaand and she gets pregnant with I thought

(51:02):
it was just another so it wasabout that, right, I thought,
So does this happen? Yeah?And so she ends up falling in love
with him, gets pregnant, butthey're still in the war thing, and
then she goes, yeah, shekilled you. She shot. No,
she's shot, but like the thingis like they're in a tent and she

(51:25):
was having like a like some kindof like moment with her man. And
then she goes outside to get waterto a river and she sees and the
river, she sees this the womanand wife. And then finally I don't
know what happens. I don't Ican't remember, but she gets then somewhere
around that time, either right thenor like right after Sabbata and her go

(51:49):
to this place for like this congregation, there was an ambush and Sabbata gets
shot and killed, yes, andthen she pregnant, gets injured, and
she's like her, I don't knowwhat's happening. But this creature thing is
where she's like aboarding the haven't miscarried, miscarrying the baby because she was,

(52:14):
and this thing gets close to her, yeah, and at that above her
at some point, Yeah, it'slike right above her. So at this
point she's like she's like, youknow, she's she's a she's a soldier
too, so she like grabs thisthing and almost manages to kill it.
And yeah, she it's like almostlike she's trying to do and she's grabbing

(52:38):
it and she almost manages to killit. But you know, a lot
of stuff happened. She loses thebaby, but she survives the gun wound.
So then she returns to her homewhere she sees her daughter and stuff,
and and she tells her, Oh, like, we have some stuff

(52:59):
that is in the family that we'regoing to have to fight. And then
you fast forward a bit and shereturns into Alejandra's dream and she's like,
I know how to kill this thing, and you have to get close to
dying. Yeah, in order Iforgot to say, yeah, I forgot
to say. That's how they learnhow they have to beat this thing.
And when they come up with thatplan. So I'm so glad that you

(53:21):
yeah, because I was like,wait, there's something this thing I forgot,
but yes, and that's how theylearned that. In order to even
get close to this thing, youhave to almost be right right a death
store to even keep your hands onit, which is why then Alejandra is
like, I have to hurt myselfto do it. It has to think

(53:43):
that I'm I'm giving in, andthen she just shoves the thing inside of
her. Yeah. It was justfreaking crazy m hm. And then and
then she basically gives birth to thisthing at the end and then yes,
finally fully kills it. Because shemade it mortal, she gave birth to
it, like it wasn't just thisspiritual thing and became real real, Yeah,

(54:07):
like physically real, physically real,and that ending was just amazing.
Do you, either of you haveanything to add before we get into the
discussion questions. I don't think so. I just had it some stuff I
did. I thought it didn't highlightand I thought I just wrote random notes
on my phone. But I didhighlights some stuff. Oh cool, Yes,
I love highlights. So so letme start from the beginning. I

(54:32):
highlighted when the creature is like horneyfor trauma. Yeah, and it's like
talking about how hot the trauma isfor it's yeah. And then it says
that violence that would scar that it'sso hot for violence that would have scar

(54:53):
the psyche of generation after generation.Yes. And there was this other part
that I came across, and Imissed the page because we were discussing something
else. But wasn't it looking aboutMatthew? I wanted to stay too,
And I don't remember. I don'tknow. Oh her father, Oh oh,
we didn't really talk about her father. I don't know. He really
doesn't matter much me. I feellike she reconnected him, and that's good,

(55:15):
but then she finds out that he'salso traumatized and has his own generational
trauma that he has to heal.There was another thing that the creature said
that it was so fascinated by theway death affected humans, Like the whole
thing got probably the it Probably theyjust like loved the that they die,

(55:40):
that people feel, Yeah, andthen like how weak their bodies are and
stuff like that. I remember likesaying things like that, Yeah, damn,
what the fuck was I gonna sayabout Matthew later? Or no,
my bad. I think it wasjust about how Matthew is didn't like her
going back to therapy. I don'tknow. There was something about he also
like didn't like that she had ohyeah, anything that with her getting back

(56:02):
in touch with her culture and herroots. He didn't like, Yeah,
anything that would lead her to communityand and give her life. I did
highlight earlier on you know, whenshe's having her horrible triggering breakdown in the
bathroom. For years she abandoned herselfto be a willing sacrifice to please everyone
around her, and now nothing existedwithin her anymore. Even her own hand

(56:27):
was not a hand at all,but a blade she used to carve her
heart for anyone who asked for it. And I was just like, wow,
that is so when I read that. Oh yeah, and I'm like,
this is why people have got aba and have boundaries clear. How
can you learn that you need boundariesif you don't know what they are?

(56:47):
Yeah, it's like she didn't knowon so she was at her very breaking
point and she's like, oh,I can't do this anymore, you know.
And it made me think of ourown mother, who another it's a
trigger warning. Yeah, I highlightedthis because it made me think of her,
you know. And I remember atone point she'd be like, oh,
I don't even buy myself new underwearbecause everything I buy it for you

(57:12):
buy. And I felt that becauseI do that, I do that myself.
We'll stop it. I'm trying.I know this year have actually spoiled
myself. I was like, youknow what, fuck them kids, I
need underwear. I thought you evergonna say something else the kids, I'm
buying myself with coloring. But no, But it's so important and it's so

(57:39):
and it's so like ingrained culturally societallyfor moms to give up everything like your
a mother first, and yeah,you know your kids. You know,
you should protect your kids, youshould care for your kids, but at
the end of the day, you'reyour own person. And yeah, a
lot of people get lost in parenthood, yeah, and forget who are and

(58:00):
it's so tough because it's like sucha huge responsibility. And that's what I'm
saying about Alejandra. She never knewwho she was and then you throw in
parenthood and that's after kid, Likenot to give our whole mom's life story,
but it made me think of her, wasn't she also like didn't hand

(58:21):
also go through parentification with her adoptedfamily, yeah, which also has a
whole other layer, like she neverhad a childhood. Yeah. Yeah,
And I mean it's and it's likeso true for generation after generation, right,
Like we see our mothers giving uptheir whole persons to care for us,

(58:43):
right, and like what do welearn about caring for ourselves? You
know? Yeah, not to soundlike a major cheese ball, but like
I'm so glad that I started firstpodcasting with you, Carmen, and then
you know all this and all thatI'm doing, because I think I was
like literally falling into the oh yeah, I've fallen into that because like,

(59:04):
yeah, it's so loud to crybecause I just thinking back, yeah,
well, and it made me thinkof you MG two when you when you
said that Christina had reached out toyou to start spooky taels and you're like,
I need adults to talk to.No. I did, because it
was like mid pandemic and like mymy husband like works all the time,
like all the time, like twelveto fourteen hour days, so by the
time he gets home, he mightsee the kids or he sees the kids

(59:29):
for an hour, and in thepandemic at bedtime and bed time, so
I did. I had no communityI had. I mean I talked to
my parents, but it's like yourparents, I'm come on me too,
the same things. It's and itwas like I had during the pandemic.
I was just completely I mean obviouslyeverybody was, but a completely more isolated

(59:49):
because at least when my kids wentto school, I think it thrust a
lot of us who maybe went outto I don't know, work and sat
people there. If that if thatinto a deeper isolation, and so that's
why I'm like, yeah, yeah, because I already keep to myself and
I have like my my group offriends I could count on both hands,
right, Like I don't talk toa lot of people. So at that

(01:00:13):
point, like a lot of mymom friends, I wasn't able to see
regularly like I did. And itwas just like oh my god. And
at once, at some things werelike pluses and minuses because I am very
family oriented, but like there comesa point in time where it's like I'm
just talking to children. I havenobody to talk to. And it was
so hard, And I think itwas hard for a lot of moms,

(01:00:34):
especially if you were the parent whohad to stay home with the kids during
the pandemic, like if you werelucky enough to still be working outside.
I think like that. I mean, as hard as it was, it
was the only, yeah, onlycommunication you had with other people. Like
I remember back when I was apick me, because I used to be
a terrible pick me. It wasthe worst when I was doing or me

(01:00:57):
and all these married we would liketalk shit about the stay at home moms
like they're not doing anything. Iwill never say that shit again, Like
this is the hardest job, Likewhat do you mean? And it's so
hard, and it's like this yearis going to be one of the hardest
years for me and my kids becauseagain, like the crazy like shifts for
him. But like my kid isalso ADHD, so he needs extra support

(01:01:22):
upon extra support. And yeah,so it's like the pandemic I think was
like one of the biggest things thatmany people. If you didn't have an
experience like Alejandra, you probably hadit for the first time. Yeah,
you saw it for the first time, whether it was with your mother or
like other women that you know.But like you finally started hearing stories that

(01:01:43):
are similar to Alejandras where people arejust like losing themselves. And I was
reading interviews with v Castro and sheliterally wrote it about herself, like she
was in that mind space that Alejandrawas like comment having those thoughts and that's
why she wrote the book. Likeshe she has said in interviews, she
is Alejandra like and yeah, it'sit's so common, but like a lot

(01:02:07):
of people don't talk about it.But like you said, Carmen, like
we I was reading this too,and I could see it and my mom
and our mom oops I did theMexican kid thing. Yeah no, and
not only our mom, but likeI could see it probably every woman in
our family. Yeah, I sawit myself because I've gone through similar situations
and again with my mom because shemy mom's like the oldest daughter of like

(01:02:30):
seven kids, no eight kids.Yeah, So I was like, Mom,
I'm so sorry, like you were, she was never a child and
I saw that. Like when Isaw that, I was like, speaking
of that, have you guys everlike come across those videos where it's like,
oh, teaching my mom how toroller skate because she and I do

(01:02:52):
that. I do that with mymom. I was like, Mom,
you have to set boundaries with youbecause my mom is like she's raised she
raised her own mom, you knowwhat I mean. So I was like,
Mom, you have to put boundarieswith my grandmother. You are not
her mother, she is your mother. And I also I've also like,
you know, I do stuff likethat with her. I'm like, no,
you're joining us. This is Iguess we're painting with the kids,

(01:03:15):
but you're joining us too. AndI forced her to do stuff and she's
like, I don't want to dothis. I'm like, you're going to
be a child for like the nexthour you're doing it. Forget that.
Those those vidos make me crist Do. I was always thinking like, man,
I'm gonna have to buy my momthat like one of her toys that
she wanted as a kid one Christmas, and I'm gonna like, I'm gonna
buy my eyes out, like no, no, okay, And should we

(01:03:39):
get to this question questions now?Oh wait, wait, wait I had
more stuff all you're just like Iwas like trying to get through this.
Oh no, no. So Iat first I didn't know what time I
was leaving because I'm gonna go seeCarol g in La and I didn't know

(01:04:04):
what time we're leaving. But we'renot leaving until like four, so I
have time to pack it. Okay, yeah, okay. So another thing
I highlighted was on page seventeen,where it's also about Alejandra, because this
is you know, early on duringyou know, her worst time, her
worst state, and so she's thinkingabout how Matthew everything is Matthew's and she

(01:04:26):
has nothing. And so the partI highlighted was that she did not even
have her own last name, notthe last name of the children. And
I was like, oh my god, because for her, I mean,
she wasn't adopted, She's adopted,so her last name. It's not and
then and I don't know because itsays not the last name of the children.
So I don't know if she endedup changing her last name to Matthew's

(01:04:48):
or not. But if she had, that's also not really her last name,
you know. Yeah, so yeah, I had it that also.
I just want to say. Thelast thing I highlighted was something that said
or from flow to chapter where shesays, we must listen to the woman
who came before us. We changedthe future by unloading the sorrow sorrow of
the past. We sever the courtof generational curses. Some cords are meant

(01:05:12):
to shrivel away to black and deadflesh. They are are blood, but
we are not them. We didnot have to accept it, none of
it. And I was like,oh my god, yes, yes,
it brings me to the to thepoint, it's in our culture you don't
talk about your your sadness or whatyou go through. You're supposed to be
quiet about and you're literally broken,yeah, and you and and your rock

(01:05:35):
bottom. That's when you're like,what am I doing? Yeah? And
but even then you're still supposed tolike swallow it and not talk about any
abuse that happened in the family.You don't talk about, like the family
pedophile. You don't talk about likewhat is it called Grandpa's second family.

(01:05:57):
You don't talk about like a lotof stuff you're suppos about your cousin hitting
his wife in front of everyone theChristmas party, Yes, you don't talk
about that. And and to evengo and get therapy, they label you
as a stas local, yeah,you know, instead of like and I
always have to remind my grandmother,who has depression and stuff, was like,

(01:06:18):
if you have a broken arm,you go to the doctors. If
you feel broken spiritually, you goto a doctor that can heal you.
And and but that's still it's likeuh, swimming against the river because it's
so taboo and Hispanic Latin culture andit's and that's why better but slowly Yeah,

(01:06:39):
no, And I was gonna saynot to keep bringing our mother up,
Christina, but it makes me thinkbecause like you said, MJ,
swimming, what did you say,swimming upstream? Swimming upstream? Like I'm
like, I don't want to thinkingabout fishes. I know, I don't
remember the quote ever, but anyway, like for her to have saught therapy,

(01:06:59):
divorce, our father remarry yep,and she's she's the first one and
out of her siblings to get adivorce and oh yeah yeah, and it
was for the better. And andour grandparents knew what our father had to

(01:07:19):
put her through, and they stillwere like, oh, stay with him,
Oh we love him. A lotof that too, A lot of
that happens like, oh, youmade a commitment, you married that person
through sickness and in health. AndI'm like, but it's like Flori said,
no, we don't have to acceptthese things exactly. Yeah, you
had to when it was the manwho could only get a job and who

(01:07:42):
could only earn money. We don'tlive in that society anymore. But and
also religion plays a huge part.Yeah, it does. You can't go
against your husband, can't get adivorced because it's a sin. You can't
even like have any more conections orlike romantic connections, even after you guys
separate, Like if you're going toseparate, you still have to be like,

(01:08:05):
what is it called when you don'thave sex? What is it called
right or abstinent to? I don'tknow which one is? Right before you
Oh yeah, so it's like youguys can like separate, but you guys
can't have any romantic anything afterwards,and then it only applies to the woman.

(01:08:28):
Yeah, it does because and nobodywould ever say anything again if like
the man is has like baby MoMA'sleft right and center, like they don't
care. But oh, if awoman has like a child and she's married
to she's trying to like she's datingyour son, you'd be like, oh

(01:08:48):
that min it's yeah, there wasan episode about that. Yeah there was
yeah, yeah, yeah, AndI've seen that happens so many times where
like our own son has like fourdifferent baby mamas and he gets with a
woman who only has one kid.Yeah, and they're like, oh my

(01:09:09):
god, she's this, she's that. I'm like, your beer son is
the manhood. He has four babymamas. Why are you worried about the
girl? Like you should be worriedabout like how your grandchildren are in separate
homes and not being unified by yourson regardless if they are in separate homes.
M But anyways, it's all that. That's we can get into the

(01:09:31):
questions. Yeah, yeah, questionwhich I think we've already kind of talked
about it. But I'll say whatthe two replies that we got from the
newsletter. So the first question waswhat did you think of the depiction of
generational trauma in the book? Andour spooky listener Marylyn wrote, I thought
it was really good. It wasshown as sort of an outside source affecting

(01:09:51):
the person, something that felt likeit was out of Alejandra's control. So
yeah, I mean we already theytalked a bunch about that, but yeah,
that is true. I loved that. I loved how it was depicted.
Yeah, I mean it was powerfulto make it like a its own
like physical you know, entity manifestationmat Yeah. Yeah, I thought that

(01:10:15):
was amazing. And I like thathow it showed that you could defeat it.
Yes, that that was the mostimportant part, Like, yes,
it's there, but you could stillovercome it and defeat it. Yes.
Yeah. And then the next one, in the traditional legend of Layrona,
we are told she kills her childrenover a man. How did you feel
about v Castro's rewriting of La Jorona? And Marilyn wrote, I kind of

(01:10:38):
love it. They always make herseem like a stupid and horrible woman.
But when you think you're saving yourchildren from a horrible feature, then you
feel desperate and would consider that,especially if you have nowhere to run.
Not saying it's right, but desperatetimes desperate measures. Yeah. Also,
the ending of the la Jorona storyat the end got me crying, like
she thought she was doing good,but the story and did the other way

(01:11:00):
around, with Laona being the onethat died and it's looking for her kid,
her kids that survived. Yeah,and then let me read the other
one here. This is from Patricia. This version of the story was interesting.
I can imagine how hard it wasfor women when they had no rights
and were forced to pick a manto take care of them. I think
this goes along with the theme ofthe book. With the theme through the

(01:11:23):
book the women are being haunted bythe choices they were forced to make,
then passing it, passing on thesame pressure to the children. And I
think we already also talked about ouranswers to that question. Yes, yeah,
we always do this, but yeah, it's true. I love the
rewriting of it because it really paintsa better picture. I think. Yeah,

(01:11:46):
and then who knows you know thereal story, because now at this
point it's like a game of telephone, right, Like, yeah, yeah,
I like this version. I'm gonnathis one. I like this too.
We mostly follow a hand, butthe book goes back through different generations.
How did you feel about the backand forth? And Marilyn Rowe,

(01:12:09):
I was down with the sickness.It gave more insight into who her ancestors
were and what they went through withthe hunt, what the hunting did before
her, and how the story playsout. And I just love that she
wrote I was down with the sickI also like how like you see you
connect the dots to how it madeall the hunter who she is at that

(01:12:30):
moment in time. You get youget the whole, the whole picture,
the whole picture, literally the entirething. It made me wish that I
could have the same about you know, our maternal ancestors, Like yeah,
like that we couldn't know, butit's just been so yeah, there's no
way of knowing, No, atleast I mean for us, as some
people could go and find out,but let us' Is it safe to assume

(01:12:57):
we all hate Matthew? He seemedto show who he was from the beginning.
Why do you think Alejandra ignored thered flags? Do you agree with
their choices. Marilyn wrote, yes, we hate Matthew. She chose the
safest option, and it's not uncommonto be with someone you don't really love
in order to be stable. Sheknew he could provide and he was into
her, so she ran with it. I don't really agree with it,

(01:13:20):
but being adopted into a not greatfamily and then trying to escape that,
it's a situation that's not new.And also like she might have not known
what love is and would only assumethat something better might be what love is.
But like when you're an abusive whenyou grow up in an abusive household,
you connect love with a lot ofabusive behavior. Yeah, when it's

(01:13:43):
not that and you don't know whathealthy love is. Yep. Yeah.
And then A Patricia wrote yes,as in yes we all hate Matthew.
It felt like Alejandra wanted to havea normal family and with Matthew that would
be a sure thing to her.I think it's really coming from a first
generation Mexican American family. You're alsolooking for the version of the perfect American

(01:14:05):
family and forget to ask yourself whatyou really want or what's best for you.
The other factor is that Handra didn'thave any family that she could talk
about red flags with. Yeah.Yeah, and I completely agree, Like
I completely understand how she got endedup with Matthew and stayed. Yeah,
and it's so because it does talkabout how they were as a dating couple

(01:14:28):
and how he, like I guess, won her over, and the little
thing she overlooks in the beginning,which I think anybody could do. I
think it's normal to do that,and then really how she stayed throughout time
too, And there's also like asunken cost fallacy for a lot of people
about Oh, I mean I've beendoing this for this long. Yeah.

(01:14:50):
And it also made me think abouthow what traditional values are like a double
edged sword kind of like, yeahknow women, some women, not me,
but some women feel like they likethey need to follow those traditional roles.
Yeah. But I mean there's areason that feminism is a thing.

(01:15:15):
There's a reason that women where theseroles are even more ingrained still fight for
you know, liberation, Like there'sa reason for all those things. Yeah,
it's it never I mean it couldhave worked, sure, but I
don't know. Kind of I'm justsaying that to be nice, not really,

(01:15:36):
because I mean, we have allthis history showing men abused to power
men control women. The more traditionalyou know, roles are followed, and
so I mean, yeah, that'swhy I said some women and and for
those women it's a double one shortbecause they feel like it's the right thing,
but at the end of the day, they're nonun control of their own

(01:15:58):
lives, you know. Yep,yeah, I can't say it better than
that. Yeah, what would yourate this book? Patricia bro It was
really good. I would give aten out of ten pizza pies, and
then Maryland said he out of tenghosts, and then let me check out.
I don't think our Instagram had anyThey just have comments about how people
really liked the book, but nobodyanswered the questions on Instagram, which is

(01:16:23):
fine. We know people read it. Let's see what did anyone. Yeah,
this book was so good. Iloved it. Can't wait to see
what the next book is. Thisone was so good. So yeah,
yeah, the Sun was good.Yeah, what would you guys? Read
it? Ten out of ten?What? Ten out of ten crystal balls,

(01:16:45):
Karmen, ten out of ten,creatures, ten out of ten blood
sucking demons? Actually, no,I really liked it. I really liked
it. It was, it was, it was. It's so far my
favorite book this year. But we'llI guess, we still have a few
books to read, so we'll see. We'll see if it gets knocked from

(01:17:10):
its number one spot. I havea feeling vampires of that, I know.
I have a feeling it's gonna doit. I love her like I
don't think I've read a better bookdecade than Oh my god, I forgot
the book, this book. Yes, oh my god, what a fan
on me, I know. Andthen overall final thoughts, Marilyn wrote,

(01:17:35):
it was dope. I've recommended itto a few people, especially people I
know going through shit. And thenpicture Hiro I enjoyed the book was scary,
especially when she would scare the kids. And then she said she also
loved how La Rona had a differentbackstory. Yeah, and yeah again,
my overall final thoughts are like amazingbook. The by far like one of

(01:17:59):
the best pictions of generational trauma andhorror that I'm Yeah, I have seen
like uh not, what is itwhen someone doesn't like something like a bad
word? Yeah, I've seen likebad reviews about there's a different where I
was thinking of, But I don'tremember haters. I don't know. Yeah,
but I've seen people say like thewriting is flat, like nobody talks

(01:18:23):
like this. Alejandra is only theonly fleshed out character, but I think
we're seeing everything from character. Ofcourse she has the main character energy.
Yeah. Yeah, And they're like, especially Matthew, nobody talks like that.
But it's like, please, thisis the most realistic, like like,
okay, I can't even talk.How lucky for them to never actually

(01:18:46):
meet someone like Matthew, because I'vemet a few Matthews. I think we
all have, and they do talklike that, and they do behave like
that. Yeah, like especially whenhe says what is where is it?
I forgot it's in the bat andhe's like, this is what you wanted?
Yes, Oh my god, I'msorry. Men sounks like this all

(01:19:08):
the time, all the time.Actually, if you look up a man,
it'll say Matthew and Journey. Iwas gonna say, if anything,
I feel like every man has aMatthew inside of themselves that they need to
fight every day to not be likebecause falls like fight your Matthew. Guys,
Oh my god, you're in Matthew. But yeah, I mean like

(01:19:35):
overall, I really enjoyed the book. Yeah, and I don't understand the
fighting comments whatever. I don't know. Yeah, No, I mean I
feel like we could go on andon and on to talking about this book
because there's so much that we stilldidn't even like we're like covered the surface.
Yeah yeah, like definitely recommend it, but I mean, anything else

(01:19:56):
before we end this, because nowit's an hour thing, that is it?
And like if I guess if anybodyreads this book after this episode comes
out, we want your opinions likethat we can keep talking about it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm so glad that we're
doing this because like who others?Whose are we going to talk about books

(01:20:16):
with for an hour and a half. Oh and then like I love the
cover too, oh yeah, Likeand then you see the creature saying right
inside of like who I'm guessing isthe representation that I don't even have the
book, I just have the pictureof it. But I like the cover

(01:20:38):
because it's like this creature is insideher, which is like the generational trauma.
So it's like a very beautiful artisticitsentation of what she's going through.
Yeah, I love it. Ican't believe you missed it, kermen.
Yeah, and now that I lookat it, so obvious, but I
just like, I think I wasso like like I would just look at
the flowers and how pretty they are, and yeah, oh man, this

(01:21:00):
was so fun. Ye, butyeah, I guess before we go.
Our next book is Silver Nitrate bySilvia Moreno Garcia. If you want to
join the book club, keep alongwith the updates on where we are on
the book, get the discussion questionsand have time to answer them before we
record so that we can include youranswers. You can sign up for the
newsletter. It's on substack. You'llget an email, but you can also

(01:21:21):
just fee the whole thing on substackitself. The link is in the show
notes. There's also a bookshop,a link that I keep for getting to
put in the show note. Ifyou buy the book there, then we
get a little bit, a littlebit of sense, a little bit of
coins. So if you don't havea Silver Nitrate, or if you want
to get Vampires of a Norte ifyou haven't gotten it, that's also on

(01:21:44):
our list. Daniell do that andyeah, I think that brings us to
the end. Thanks so much.Both of you for talking about the book
with me. I mean it wasmain pleasure. It was a good discussion.
And stay a spooky We'll catch everyonenext time. Bye bye. Spooky

(01:22:08):
Tails is hosted by Christina and MJ, produced and edited by Christina. Everything
is written and researched by Christina MJand with the help of Dawn shout Out
Down. Thank you so much foryour help. If you love what you
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(01:22:30):
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(01:23:15):
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(01:23:38):
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