The Laredo Texas Serial Killer

In the fall of 2018, terror struck the normally relatively safe city of Laredo, TX. Two women were found dead in a span of less than 2 weeks, by the time it was over, it was a lot worse. People wondered, "how could someone in law enforcement do this". In this episode, Cristina tells Carmen about this 2018 case, where four women were senselessly murderded. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hi, this is Christina and Carmen, and this is another
episode of a Spooky Tales, the podcast for all Things Hunted,
a spooky true crime in Latin America. And today it
is just true crime and it's very depressing and angering.
That's just that's been the mood. Yeah, it's my fault,

(00:25):
and yeah, that's what we have today.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
No panorma. Sorry, that's the mood in general. Yes, and
yeah didn't.

Speaker 1 (00:33):
We don't have a listener story today because we're just
gonna do the true crime case. But we still are
receiving them always. So if you have a story that
you want to send us, you can email as Spooky
Tales at gmail dot com. You can dm us on
any of our socials. You can submit it on Discord.
You can dma on any of our socials like Instagram,
even TikTok. You can call the Spooky hotline.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
All are cool.

Speaker 1 (00:55):
We love receiving them. Okay, and yeah again we're just
gonna jump straight into my depressing case.

Speaker 2 (01:00):
Again.

Speaker 1 (01:01):
It's very infuriating and depressing. I can't stress that enough.
So I am sharing a case where the murderer, the
perpetrator is a former Border Patrol agent.

Speaker 2 (01:17):
Oh that one. Mm hmm. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:19):
When this happened, people asked, how could this happen? How
could someone who is supposed to protect us become a
monster and high defect. I would like to remind people
that that's not the purpose of border patrol. Yeah, yeah,
they are often the perpetators of violence. So to me,
when I learned that it was a bored patrol agent

(01:40):
that there is, it.

Speaker 2 (01:41):
Was no surprise.

Speaker 1 (01:43):
You were like, okay, makes sense. Yeah, I'm like shocking
at all, the least shocked, like I could ever be.

Speaker 2 (01:50):
Yeah, but I get it.

Speaker 1 (01:51):
Not everyone's there yet, so yeah, anyway, the case. So,
in the follow of twenty eighteen, terror struck the normally
relative safe city of Laredo, Texas, compared to its Mexican counterpart,
Nuevo Laredo, Latto is pretty safe. Laredo, not Nova Lao,
is often included in the top ten safest cities in Texas.

(02:15):
To me, Larelo seems like one of those places you
only go if you're from there. It's not like a destination,
like or you're yeah, yeah, yeah, you're there because you
already live there and like you're not visiting or you
have family there. That would be the only reason you're visiting. Yeah,
it's not like I don't know Austin or San Antonio,
but like I've only ever been to San Antonio. I
can't like I haven't been to Texas, but if I went,

(02:37):
I would probably go, Like I don't know like San Antonio,
I don't know Houston unless we're visiting family. Yeah, Laredo
is right next to Mexico along the Rio Grande, with
the population of more than two hundred and sixty thousand.
Going by crime rates alone, it's way safer than Dallas
and Houston. So when four women were found dead in

(03:02):
a span of two weeks, people were terrified. And then
when connections between the murders were made.

Speaker 2 (03:11):
That's her grew.

Speaker 1 (03:13):
Where the connections between the murders. Yeah, okay, what did
they say? No, I'm just repeating because I thought you
said murderers and I was like what, oh no, no, Yeah,
because two of them were found in the same general area,
like literally so close to each other. Yeah, I was
giving serial killer. Yes, yes, they were found in the
rural roads outside of Lareedo. And these women were all

(03:38):
known sex workers, all working in the same road San Bernardo,
And this is Laredo's main road, and unlike other places,
the sex industry here was not somewhere hidden away. Literally
on the main road, everyone knew where it was. Blocks
away from the high school, sex workers lined the main

(03:58):
street out in the open. They were all mostly local
and very close knit, and one of these close knit
groups of friends was Melisaramirez, Janelle Ortiz and Claudine Luerra.
They would sit together on an orange bench and chat
between clients. They ate at the local takeia together. They
shared clothes and the costs of motel rooms, and all

(04:21):
three were very well known in the community. Melisar Ramirez
was twenty nine, but she still had like this motherly
role within the community. She had been working in San
Bernardo for almost ten years, and she grew up in
Rio Bravo, a low income community thirteen miles south of Ladedo,

(04:45):
and she lived there with her mom, Cristina ba Navidez,
and two of her kids, who were seven and three
when all this was taking place twenty eighteen. It was
a humble home with kids toy scattered around the yard
of a mobile home, and Melissa was the third oldest
of four siblings and as a kid she loved playing
Mexican music on the accordion, which cool, very cool. She

(05:10):
memorized all the lyrics of all of Selena's most famous songs,
and since childhood she was known for her compassion. She
was a really good student, but all of this changed
when she was sexually assaulted by the uncle of one
of her friends. Oh no, this was during high school
and life became very difficult for her. After this, she
turned to xanax to cope, dropped out of high school,

(05:33):
then began using other drugs. By the time she became
a mother who struggles with addiction were worse and you know,
like everyone trying to get better, she would swear off drugs,
be home with her kids and her mom, but it
was difficult. It's a very difficult thing to do, and
so then she would leave her kids again with her

(05:54):
mom and take the bus to downtown Laedo and work
the streets. And then she would be gone for a
few days then return home again, and her mom and
kids were always waiting for her back home. Whenever she
would get there, Christina would cook Melissa's favorite meal for her.
She always called her Miniamosa ever since she was a baby,

(06:17):
and so when Melissa left on September tewod. Christina expected
her back in a few days, like always, but this
time it was different. Two detectives and two Texas Rangers
were at her doorstep and they brought the worst news
of Christina's life with them. Melissa had been found dead

(06:39):
on a small access road twenty miles outside of Laedon.

Speaker 2 (06:43):
It was around noon on.

Speaker 1 (06:44):
The third September third when the Webb County Sheriff Department
received a call from a rancher who had discovered a
woman on the side of a dirt road.

Speaker 2 (06:54):
She had been.

Speaker 1 (06:55):
Lying face down. She was shot three times in the
head and once in her right art, and she had
been clutching a bag of M and ms when she
was killed. Next to her there were forty caliber bullet
casings and so to the police, this meant she had
been shot execution style like at point blank range. And

(07:17):
at the morgue, she was quickly identified as Melissa Ramidez.
They used fingerprints, which then resulted in a two thousand
and eight arrests for prostitution that she was in the system,
and that's how they found out so quickly who it was,
and the investigation started slow efforts with false leads. Christina
remembered that Melissa had mentioned a man in a black truck,

(07:39):
but after finding out who this man was, he was
cleared completely like he had nothing to do with it.
But unfortunately, rumors of a black truck spread among the
women on San Bernardo and they were all warning each
other to avoid a black truck, which again was a
false rumor or false lead, And surveillance of the site
showed that a police car had arrived before the assigned unit,

(08:03):
or had arrived, like before the dispatch call sent a
police car, there was already an officer there, and so
this police car on surveillance they could see that it
drove down the road and it turned around right where
Melissa's body was, and so at first they were like, well,
this is probably the murder, revisiting the murder scene. But no,

(08:24):
after investigating, this was not the case. It was just
a police officer who had been driving down the road
to look at property he was going to buy.

Speaker 2 (08:31):
Oh that's what I thought at first, Yeah, it is.

Speaker 1 (08:34):
It seemed like that, and so I did leave. I guess,
why would you want to stay there if you're not working.
It's like, yeah, well, normally I think he would have
to call it in, but he wasn't working yet. He
was just in his car, probably like dropping his daughter
off at school, and on the way there he stopped
to look at this property. I'm not sure, but his
daughter was in the car with oh, and he didn't

(08:54):
want her to see, of course, so he turned around quickly.
And so this at first made people think, oh, I
got it's a police officer. And they were like, you know,
just chasing these false leads, which again is always like,
it's part of it, part of the investigation, but it
sucks when they waste so much time that could have
been you know, more fruitful. So the only leads they

(09:18):
had went nowhere. And because of the location of where
she was found, Border Patrol was brought in to assist
with the investigation because you know, this area along the
border is heavily surveilled, like there if we live in
a state surveillance as a whole United States, that's a
super state surveillance that they are under, yes, extreme, and

(09:42):
you know, investigators knew that Border Patrol had automated cameras
on a lot of these small access roads and they're
going at all times, and so Border Patrol was asked
to check license plates for any vehicles that were on
that road at the time of the murder. And there
was one Border Patrol in intelligence supervisor named Juanda Vidortis

(10:03):
who led his team through these checks and he and
his team cleared every driver.

Speaker 2 (10:09):
Hmmmm.

Speaker 1 (10:11):
And so for ten days the investigation was stalled. Melissa's
killer could be anyone at this point. Then on the
morning of September thirteenth, ten days after, forty two year
old Claudine Luerra was found dead two miles from where
Melissa Amidas had been discovered.

Speaker 2 (10:32):
Wow, And just like.

Speaker 1 (10:33):
Melissa, Claudine had been shot multiple times in the head,
execution style. And they found the same type of forty
caliber bullet casings next to her too. And it was
a big rick driver who found her and called nine
one one. But unlike Melissa, Claudine was still alive.

Speaker 2 (10:52):
Oh. The driver spotted.

Speaker 1 (10:54):
Her from where he was driving, pulled over, climbed down
from his cab and checked on her and found her breathing.
And not only that, but she hadn't managed to crawl
from the grass like a hidden spot on the side
of the road, deep in the grass, she crawled all
the way to a visible spot on the road. That's
how he was able to see her. But at this

(11:14):
point she had been fighting for her life for almost
five hours.

Speaker 2 (11:18):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (11:20):
She was transported to the hospital and she continued to
live until that afternoon where she died from her head injuries.

Speaker 2 (11:27):
But a long time.

Speaker 1 (11:30):
Yeah, And at first, investigators tried to keep Claudine's murder quiet.
They told the media that a woman died from head
trauma at the hospital. They were like, yes, that happened,
but they would say nothing else. But reporters found out
how close together the women were found, and they connected
the two murders right away, and so news about a
serial killer loose on the streets of Ladedo spread quickly.

(11:52):
And Claudie was one of Melissa's closest friends. But I'm
not clear if this was part of the news being
spread or that people just knew they were both sex
workers that had been found two miles apart from each other.
But you know, it would seem the killer knew they
knew each other at least. And Claudine she grew up

(12:14):
in Laedon. She attended the high school that is just
a few blocks from San Bernardo. The streets, the street
that they all worked on, and she had a very
rough childhood and she never shared what happened to her.
But something that changed her life forever took place when
she was five, something traumatic, something that she has always

(12:35):
said took all good.

Speaker 2 (12:36):
Away from her. Oh some terrible.

Speaker 1 (12:40):
Yeah, And she and her sister were known as Las
Blanchitas in their childhood because they were I want to say,
half Polish, half Mexican. And for some time she did
try to move past her trauma. She was working as
a clerk for the DA's office, but her struggle with
drugs only got worse. In twenty fourteen. Her kids were

(13:00):
from her care and plays with her sister, but her kids,
like the goal of her oldest daughter, was to graduate
as a nurse, have all their siblings buy a house, sorry,
graduate as a nurse, buy a house, move all her siblings,
her aunt, and her mom in the same house. They
just wanted to all be together, even even through the

(13:21):
struggles of their mom. Which is it's beautiful because again
it is something that is so difficult for so many people. Yeah,
And like Melissa, Claudine always talked about getting better, and
just days before her own murder, the day Melissa was
found dead, Claudine went to her older kid at her
apartment and told her that she was scared and wanted

(13:44):
to leave sex work for good because she was like,
I could be next. And she said she knew who
Melissa had been with last Oh, and Claudine's fears became true,
but this wouldn't be discovered until the killer's confession. It
turned out that Claudine was trying to figure out what
happened to her friend. She set her fear aside and

(14:07):
got into the killer's truck and began to ask questions.
There was a confrontation and then he ordered her at
gunpoint to get out of the truck and when she did,
he also got out behind her, and that's when he
killed her or not, that's when he shot her. And
again she died in the hospital a few hours. I mean,

(14:28):
she wasn't able to share this information because of the
condition she was in. This was found out after he confessed. Yeah,
it almost feels like she was trying to stay alive
to try and share this information, but her injuries were
too severe. Yeah, when she died in the hospital just
a few hours after that, the killer was already picking

(14:49):
up his next target.

Speaker 2 (14:50):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (14:52):
On the evening of like he this was like so fast,
it's insane. It reminds me of in criminal minds when
like one person killed like someone and then they get
like the itch for it and then like it's a
kind of like spray killing.

Speaker 2 (15:05):
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:07):
On the evening of September fourteenth, twenty seven year old
Erica Pena was walking San Bernardo. A white Dodge Ram
pulled up to pick her up, and she of course
heard what had happened to Melissa, just like the rest
of the women who were working that night, but she
needed the money.

Speaker 2 (15:24):
Plus they had.

Speaker 1 (15:25):
All her to watch out for a black truck and
she knew the man driving. She knew that he was
some sort of law enforcement and he had picked her
up in the past. He was like a regular on
San Bernardo and when she got on it struck he
was normal, talkative. He drove her down to his home
and said his kids and wife are out of town
that weekend, because yes, he was married. Of course he

(15:46):
was course, of course, and they talked while she smoked
a cigarette. But then she asked him if he knew
anything about her friend, Melissa Ramidez, and he started to
act weird. He stopped smiling, he got all the offensive,
and he was like, why would you ask me about
the murder? Why would I know anything about that? And
she thought it was an innocent enough question, like him

(16:07):
being in some sort of law enforcement, he might know,
he might know something. But when he got defensive, she
started to feel uneasy and scared, of course, and she
describes that he stood right behind her and she just
felt like he smelt like death or something like she
felt that and then.

Speaker 2 (16:24):
She threw up.

Speaker 1 (16:26):
She quickly, like she said. She played it off and
said like, oh, maybe it's because I didn't eat before,
like smoking my cigarette, and it just made my stomach like,
you know, queasy. And so they got back in the
truck and went to the gas station so he could
just buy like a snack or something. And when he
got back into the truck, she brought up Melissa again
because now she was like this is now she wanted

(16:47):
to like confirm if her suspicions were true. Yes, And
this time he reached into the side compartment on her side,
pulled out his gun and aimed it at her.

Speaker 2 (16:58):
Oh wow.

Speaker 1 (16:58):
But before he could do anything, she opened the door
so fast and she jumped out, and he reached out
and ripped her shirt off, like trying to pull her
back in, but she fell into the sidewalk, got up,
she sprinted across the gas station, where there happened to
be another police officer, and she was screaming at the
top of her lungs, at the top of her lungs,
that he was going to kill her. But by the

(17:19):
time she reached this officer, the man in the truck
was gone. But this officer was well aware of the
recent killings and thought this was related, and so he
took Eddie got to the Webb County Sheriff station where
investigators interviewed her, and she told them everything that had happened,

(17:39):
and that the man was a Border Patrol agent named David,
and normally she was terrible at directions and addresses, like
even her family made fun of her, and so that
she wouldn't be able to get to her own house
from like the corner store. Sounds like someone I know
both of us, Yeah, yeah, I was going to say,
actually two people I know, two people that share one

(18:01):
brain cell, yes, yeah, yeah, But this time, no, this
time she remembered his address. Wow, And so investigators searched
that up. They got a hit and they found that
it belonged to Juan David Orthiz, the very same intelligence
officer who had been assisting the murdered investigation. Shocking why

(18:23):
they kept getting nowhere? Yeah, shocking Why none of the
cars were matching because he lied. Yeah. And by the
time they arrived at his house, he was gone.

Speaker 2 (18:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:36):
By the time they had this information, got a warrant,
then were able to go to his house. Yeah, he
was gone. It was now after midnight on the fifteenth,
and you know, they had a warrant, so they were
able to go inside the house and they found twelve weapons,
including rifles, pistols, and a shotgun. They put out a
bolo with the description of his truck and of him.

(18:56):
But just before the bolo went out, he was already
picking up his next victim. Damn, you can't even chill
for one night.

Speaker 2 (19:06):
No.

Speaker 1 (19:08):
And so this was Grisel la Cantou, who went by
Celli and Celli mostly kept to herself. She carried all
of her things in a bag and she would be
seen packing and repacking this same bag in between clients.
And maybe because she was so quiet and kept to herself,
she wasn't aware of fully what was going on or

(19:31):
the danger she was in when she got into the
men's truck, But she got into his truck. And again,
they're all here because they needed the money. They need
to keep working, so even when there's a dangerous case
like this, they can't stop working. So yeah, she got
into his truck because you know, she had to. And
so he spent twenty miles north on Interstate thirty five,

(19:53):
where he demanded her to get out of the truck
and then he shut her in the neck twice and
then he still hit her over the head with the
an object, like, oh my gosh, that wasn't enough. Why,
like what is the reason?

Speaker 2 (20:05):
Right?

Speaker 1 (20:06):
So then he got back into his truck and sped,
and he must have been speeding because like they're already
looking for him. Yeah, but he sped back to San Bernardo,
using back roads to avoid the very like where they
were doing searches already on the main main roads. And
so then he pulled up next to two women and

(20:26):
he asked if one of them would be his date,
and twenty eight year old Janelle Ortiz agreed because she
had been sleeping under a bridge lately and she really
needed the money, and I mean they needed to feed
themselves and to eat. That's going to outweigh the safety
issues of what's going on right now, like that's always

(20:47):
going to well, and everything was happening so quickly they
might not be up to date on the information. Plus
they had last heard to keep away from a black truck,
like you had said earlier. So yeah that too. So yeah,
she got in his truck. But just a few days before,
her santam Merta figure that she always carried around had

(21:07):
snapped at the head, and she took this as a
sign that something bad was going to hold to her.
She had been a devout Santa Morta follower since her transition,
and to her this was an omen So she got
in his truck and he again drove down inners thirty five,
and just like everyone else, he ordered her to get

(21:29):
out of the truck and shot her in the back
of the head. And her last words were, if we're.

Speaker 2 (21:34):
Going to do it, then do it. Wow.

Speaker 1 (21:38):
And then the man did just as he had before,
He got in his truck and sped back into town,
probably trying to find someone else to dam It's absolutely wild.

Speaker 2 (21:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (21:49):
By now it was one am. On the sixteenth and Highway.
Patrol troopers had driven past a Valero gas station where
they saw a white Dodge Ram truck in the parking
lot and it matched the BOLO that had been sent
out earlier, and the truck was unattended, so they went
to look inside the truck and they saw the forty
caliber pistol, which matched the previous scenes crime scenes, and

(22:14):
so the officers headed into the gas station tasers drawn
to apprehend him, but he saw them and he fled
on foot through the side door down San Bernardo Avenue
and he ran until he got to Hotel Eva, where
then he just tried to hide behind cards in the
parking lot, but he was surrounded. And by now this

(22:37):
was all being live streamed by a woman who went
by La Gorliloca Oh wow, Brisila via real who this
is what she did. She had a Facebook page with
over one hundred thousand followers, and she filmed and broadcasted
these kinds of things like that was her job. And
so she was at the scene already. And I don't
remember which one of the victims, but one of their

(22:59):
family members ended up watching the live stream. But at
this point nobody knew that that it was him. No,
that Janelle and Oh they didn't know they had been killed. Yeah,
they had no idea because well, everything again happened so
fast after after Eddieka escaped the other two. He didn't
he did that so fast, and so like their family

(23:21):
members were watching and they had no idea that their
own family members had been murdered by this man. Oh
that's terrible, it is. And so while this was all
being live streamed, police were surrounded him. Jus was hiding
in the bed of a truck in this parking lot
and he got on Facebook and posted to my wife
and kids, I love you, and then he posted doc

(23:43):
or these checks out farewell, I shaid the fuck up
just three years off in God.

Speaker 2 (23:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:49):
So at some point he tried to point his gun,
like point his phone like a gun maybe to try
and like have the cops kill him and you know,
like do it.

Speaker 2 (23:59):
Let's try to do.

Speaker 1 (24:01):
Death by cop or what is it called, something like that,
something like that. But it didn't work, and at two
three four am he came out with his hands in
the air and he was arrested. And once they got
to the police station, he refused to talk until they
let him, what is it? They brought him a picture
of his wife and kids, like, go now, you want

(24:22):
to be a family man, now after you've murdered all
these people and you've like please, but who was this man?
I guess, I guess I'll talk about him. His arrest
came at a time when Border Patrol was under public scrutiny. Personally,

(24:42):
they should always be under public scrutiny and shouldn't exist.

Speaker 2 (24:45):
But agreed.

Speaker 1 (24:47):
But his arrest again in twenty eighteen, it was under
It was a time when Border Patrol was under public
scrutiny for accepting unqualified applicants. So then people kept asking, well,
how could they let us heeral killer in? How could
they not see this? But like on paper, he seemed
like a highly qualified applicant. And I would argue that

(25:10):
this is the exact type of person that is attracted
to institutions like Board Patrol. Yeah, I would argue the same, Yeah,
a violent person, because this is a violent agency. Like,
how are you going to tell me that a good
person is going to join an agency that tells their
employees to destroy water for dying migrants, who watches dying
migrants in their face and refuses to get medical help

(25:32):
for them. Yeah, who constantly rape women and children? Who
randomly shoots into Mexico? Right, please?

Speaker 2 (25:42):
So to me?

Speaker 1 (25:45):
Of course, of course it's no surprise. But again, not
everyone's there yet. Not everybody understands this, I think. Yeah, so,
like I was saying on paper, he was the perfect candidate.
He was born in Brownsville, Texas, the oldest of four
kids and a single parent household his mom. He went
to gladys Porter Early College high school, where he ran

(26:05):
cross country. He swam competitively. He was a member of
the Fellowship of Christian Athletes and a member of the
Assembly of God Church, a youth group in the church. Shocking, yes,
and all. This was emphasized during the trial to show
that he was a quote all American boy. Those are
red flags if anything, except the cross country, except the

(26:27):
swimming and cross Nope, except the cross country. Yeah, swimming
is a red flag.

Speaker 2 (26:32):
Sorry, didn't he used to swim?

Speaker 1 (26:36):
No swimming competitive being in sports, oh not recreationally. A
quote A good sorry, A quote, good Christian man who
was suffering from mental health.

Speaker 2 (26:46):
End quote.

Speaker 1 (26:48):
I'm sorry, you know, good man. Don't go on killing spreeds.

Speaker 2 (26:54):
Yeah, it doesn't matter.

Speaker 1 (26:55):
How you want to twist this shit around like good
people don't go on killing spreez. Yeah. Period one month
after his eighteenth birthday, before nine to eleven happened, he
had enlisted in the US Navy as a coreman, so
a medic. He was attached to the Marine Corps Air
Ground Combat Center in twenty nine Palms in California. His

(27:20):
union was deployed to Baghdad in two thousand and three,
where he saw intense combat. As that's probably where he
practiced serial killer killing the first time. Right. Again, we
don't say this like we know not all soldiers, right,
but it is a fact that wherever the US military goes,

(27:41):
sexual assaults increase. Yeah, and so it happened in these places.
So after he met his wife, he got married. Then
he was stationed in Fort sam Houston in the Training
Support Center, and he got a bachelor's degree during that time.
And then in two thousand and nine he left the

(28:02):
Navy and joined Border Patrol pretty much right away, though
he did consider the San Antonio Police Department, but this
part okay, So, but he went with Border Patrol because,
according to a friend quote, he didn't just want to
stop the bad guys. He wanted to use his medical
skills to help migrants who had been traveling for days

(28:23):
in the desert just to get to the US end.
Quote sure, that's what I'm sorry, that's not what Border
Patrol does. If you want to do that, join a
non profit organization like Alotlado, who does leave water for
migrants and care packages.

Speaker 2 (28:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:39):
In his spare time from Border Patrol, he worked on
a master's degree in international relations, which he earned in
twenty thirteen. He rose through the ranks and was promoted
to intelligence supervisor in twenty seventeen, putting his international whatever
the hell it was called, degree to use.

Speaker 2 (28:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:59):
Though he was again rising through the rings, he was
texting an old marine friend about how hard border patrol was.
He would tell his friend, like, it feels like he
was back in Iraq, that he was going to war
every day.

Speaker 2 (29:10):
Oh what if you just quit? Hold on? Hold on again,
I swear to god.

Speaker 1 (29:21):
His friend told him, quote, Doc, you're a good guy.
You need to take care of yourself and your family.
Have you thought about quitting Border patrol?

Speaker 2 (29:28):
Wow? Wow?

Speaker 1 (29:29):
Did you what an idea? But Juan da Vidortiz replied
that he couldn't do that because he was doing his
best to help all the people who need a help. Again,
who was he actually helping? Is there any like no
record of him actually helping migrants, because like there's maybe
like one story out there of an actual border patrol

(29:51):
officer helping you know, migrants.

Speaker 2 (29:55):
You hear about that, especially more back.

Speaker 1 (29:56):
In the day, you know, now I think it's less
yeah common now, So I'm just so doubtful of that.

Speaker 2 (30:04):
No, me too.

Speaker 1 (30:05):
He wanted probably more opportunity to terrorize people, and that's
why he couldn't lead to feel he was addicted to
that feeling of power. The power, yes, the so like
he had never had any disciplinary actions within bord patrol.

Speaker 2 (30:19):
The only thing on record.

Speaker 1 (30:21):
Disciplined anybody, That's why, But go ahead.

Speaker 2 (30:24):
No they don't.

Speaker 1 (30:26):
But the only thing on record is that a migrant
after he was apprehended by Juan, a migrant reported that
he took a cigarette from him. But he stole a
cigarette from him. So I don't think stealing cigarettes from
migrants is helping them.

Speaker 2 (30:41):
Well, he's helping them to not smoke. You know what,
Let the migrants smoke.

Speaker 1 (30:45):
Okay, you already caught them, Like a migrant's been thrown off, No,
but seriously, and so in his personal life everything seemed fine.
He had just bought a house with his wife and
Sonny in the Signey Sea throw ran of La neighborhood
of Laredo. He spent all his free time with his
kids and wife, except for Saturdays, where he went hunting

(31:08):
or fishing with his best man, Jerry Solie.

Speaker 2 (31:12):
I was going to say where he went hunting for
sex workers. I mean.

Speaker 1 (31:18):
On Sundays he attended the First Assembly of God church
with his family, and FYI, this is an evangelical church.
I'm just on this fact. It is evangelical. The number
one what is that word? Supporters of Trump. Yeah, very

(31:39):
godly of them. This picture perfect American dream life was
not real. At some point, Juanda Vidortis went to the
VA and was prescribed some sort of medication. The VA
has never disclosed what this was because they were like
confidentiality patient confidentially obviously we can't say that. But Jerry Soli,

(32:00):
his friend, said that he Juana Juan or Thiez, had
told him he'd been prescribed antipsychotic medication and he would
also see him drinking and insane him ount while on
this medication, which probably doesn't mix well.

Speaker 2 (32:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:16):
At some point in the summer of twenty eighteen, or
thieves also showed Jerry solisa picture of a young woman
on his phone and he said he met her at
Gold's gym. And Jerry was like, what the fuck? What?

Speaker 2 (32:28):
What about your wife? Man?

Speaker 1 (32:29):
What about your wife and kids? Yeah, you're really gonna
throw this all away for some random girlfriend you suddenly have.
This wasn't a girlfriend. It was Melissa Ramirez, his first victim.

Speaker 2 (32:40):
Oh wow, just days.

Speaker 1 (32:44):
After showing Jerry Solisa's picture Juan dirie Rothe's murderer.

Speaker 2 (32:48):
Wow. And he probably.

Speaker 1 (32:51):
Would have been able to continue to hide his crimes
very easily because of his position within border patrol. But
this all went downhill when Eddie got pen escaped. If
she had not escaped and had not given his exact
address like, he would have kept doing this.

Speaker 2 (33:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (33:09):
When news of who he was and his past came
to light, people kept talking about his PTSD his mental health,
citing it as the reason for what he had done.
But no, please, he was misogynistic. He talked about hating

(33:30):
sex workers even though he regularly sought their services.

Speaker 2 (33:33):
They always do that shit.

Speaker 1 (33:36):
They always do that, and it's like, yes, he had PTSD,
but the problem is his extreme misogyny and hatred of women. Yeah,
and this already normalized cultural violence. And then he was
in spaces where because violence is normalized in our society already, right,

(34:00):
as well as misogyny, but he was in these spaces
where it was even more, even more normalized. Praise even
expected the military, the evangelical church, Yes, stay mad about it.
Border patrol.

Speaker 2 (34:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:18):
And I'm not sure if it was during his confession
or during the trial or both where he would say this,
or he would say sex workers were quote scum of
the earth, trash and that he was quote cleaning up
the street. Of course, of course he said that, and
again he was out here regularly seeking their services. Like,
but they do this, the kind of people that have

(34:40):
the mentality. Somehow it never applies to them, even though
again they are the ones looking for it too.

Speaker 2 (34:44):
It's not their fault.

Speaker 1 (34:45):
It's always a women's fault. It's a sex fault, not
his fault that he's seeking out, they're enticing him. It's
probably his fault. And oh not sorry, it's probably their
fault and his wife's fault.

Speaker 2 (34:54):
Somehow too.

Speaker 1 (34:55):
Yeah, probably, although I can't confirm that in this case
that that was ever believed anyway. Days after his arrest,
one hundred and fifty mourners gathered, including the families of
the women. Claudine Luerra's sister said, quote, but what you
have to understand is that all of these women grew
up in our community. We love them and cared for them.

(35:16):
We always felt hoped they would changed. You might not
understand this, but we never turn our backs on our
loved ones just because they are going through hard times.
That's part of our culture down here. End quote. And yes, yes,
the community came together to donate money for Melissa Ramidez's
cremation because the first thing that her mother, Christina Bernavina

(35:38):
said after the police left was like, how am I
going to tell my grandkids? And how am I going
to pay for a funeral? So they came together to
contribute for this. Erica Pena who escaped, she was so
traumatized by her encounter with Juanda vid Ortiz that she
couldn't go outside. She barely ate or slept. When she sleep,

(36:00):
she had nightmares that he was chasing her in his
white truck and through all this the trial, his wife
continued to support juandavidrtis, Oh my god, I'm sorry, but
if I would never stand by a man period not

(36:21):
end of sentence, No further information necessary. No, like I
know they said, through sickness and whatever, but like in
this a killing spree. No, no, no. But she believed
that it was her fault because she encouraged him to
go to the vier and the medications to the via
gave him caused all of this. It wasn't the medication.

(36:44):
It was a hatred of woman and his supposed moral superiority,
fueled by his environment, and her belief that it's her
fault is also fueled by her environment the evangelical church.

Speaker 2 (37:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (37:06):
During the trial, he said that the reason he did
it was to clean up the streets, that as he
drove down San Bernardo in Laredo, he felt quote the
monster come out. That's not a monster, that a man. Yeah,
that's not a monster, that's the patriarchy. He so he

(37:27):
he I think the first At some point he he
pled not guilty to everything, despite his detailed and lung confession,
which he said he was like, what's it called coerce
to do? Because he was like not not. When he
was arrested, and then he was brought in supposedly, the
detective was like, listen, you already messed up. We already

(37:48):
know you did this. If you confess your at least
your wife can have your pension and you will be
she'll be taken care of. And that sounds like something
they would say. Honestly, it sounds like things they say normally. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
so whatever to me, that doesn't sound like I don't know,
I I don't know if that's coercion. I think that's
their usual line of questioning and explanation and manipulation, which

(38:09):
they are legally. Yeah, I'm not saying it's right, but
legally yeah, they're allowed to lie to you. Yeah. And
so yeah, they were trying to say there was no evidence,
but again, the weapon was in his house, right, so
or on him. I don't one of the two for sure.
But so the detailed and lung confession, which led them

(38:30):
to the two other women that they didn't even know
had been murdered. When he was arrested, he led them
straight to them like please.

Speaker 2 (38:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:38):
So all this was shown to the jury, along with
autopsy pictures and one juror was dismissed after the autopsy
pictures because he fainted when he saw them. Oh wow,
that's how impactful it was. On day five of the trial,
he again is when he shared his motive that he

(39:00):
wanted to clean the streets up because no one else
was doing it. Apparently again he sought out these services,
so right. Also he told his friend Melissa Raminez was
his girlfriend. So a different woman who spoke to the
Guardian anonymously under Anna Karen. I don't think this was

(39:21):
included in the trial. I think this happened way after.
She talked to the Guardian. But she said that Juandais
was a regular client of hers and that he was
always talking about Eddie Gapa, the woman who escaped from him,
and when meeting Anna Karen, he would ask about Edika.
Does Edika use needles? Does Ediga take showers? Does Edika

(39:44):
have hepatitis? And the woman would be like, can we
talk about me?

Speaker 2 (39:48):
Like please?

Speaker 1 (39:49):
He would say that Edika was the only one who'd
been to his house and that Anna Karen could be
the second to ever go to his house, but that
he was obsessed with eddieka Pa. Wow, so this doesn't
sound like someone trying to clean up the streets. Well, no,
because we know that wasn't real. Yeah, but luckily he
was found guilty and sentenced to life in prison without

(40:12):
the possibility of parole. Surprisingly, the I don't remember who
was a judge who was like, the death sentence is
not going to be considered because this is Texas. Like,
I'm just surprised. I don't agree with the death sentence
or with the death sentence, but it was off the table.
But he was sentenced to life in prison without the
possibility of parole. And after the verdict, family members of

(40:34):
the victims gave their impact statements. Melissa Tremds, his sister
in law, said that she was quote a loving, kind
and funny person and the hearts of Melissa's children are
now broken. She asked Juanna Vidertis if he knew how
much pain he caused their family, and then she said
that her heart is torn apart, knowing that she won't

(40:54):
to be able to see Melissa, but to visit her
in the cemetery.

Speaker 2 (40:58):
Oh And in.

Speaker 1 (41:00):
Separate interviews, family members of the women have stated again
and again how most online reporting of them refers to
them as just sex workers, as if that makes it
okay what happened to them. And so whenever they talk
with reporters, they share memories and make sure to know
that these women had lives outside of their work. Yeah,

(41:21):
because they did. They were loved by their families. Janelle
Ortica's sister, rossend artis who the rossend ARTISTO used him
pronouns for Janelle, so she said, quote, he was so
sweet with me.

Speaker 2 (41:34):
He really loved me.

Speaker 1 (41:35):
When I heard about what happened, I was in shock.
I didn't know what to do. I drownded my tears.
I just couldn't believe my brother would die that way.
I don't think I'll ever accept the fact that he's
gone forever, but I just have to live with it.
End quote. And the two bonded over makeup and dressing
cue after Janelle came out as trans and Janelle was
burying her favorite red dress, which when Arita give me

(42:00):
chose I know this part almost this part made me cry.
When Aretha Franklin had passed away and they were showing like,
you know, the funeral on TV genor Thesas with her family,
and she was wearing that red dress and she was
like twirling in the red dress. She loved Aria Franklin,
and then she was like in the red dress, and
she's like, this is how I want to go, like
when I go in my red dress. And so they

(42:22):
buried her in her favorite red dress and they took
the flower behind her ear. Oh and it's it's wild
to come across comments about this case because so many
of them are empathizing with Juan da Vidor Theisa and
his family. How well, let me tell you what some

(42:44):
of the comments said. Okay, go on, It's sad to
see a good man go from good to evil. I
would argue maybe he started his evilness a little bit
before he did these things. Because someone also, I have
a problem with painting this kind of thing as evil.

(43:07):
That's not a real man, you know, that kind of thinking,
because because it is, this is the extreme end of misogyny. Yeah,
this is what the patriarchy causes. This is what toxic
masculinity causes. Yeah, so it's not you know, it's not rare.
I mean, it's common.

Speaker 2 (43:26):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (43:27):
I just I just don't like when people say that.
But obviously no, I agree, they're stupid. Another one I
saw how horrible for his family that something broke in
this good man's mind and made him do this. I
don't I don't think something broke in his mind. I
think I think he hated woman, he hated sex workers,

(43:52):
and he hated himself, and because he is was a repressed,
uh toxic man, he acted out violently, Yeah, instead of
uh going therapy or something. I don't, right, I don't know.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (44:12):
No, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (44:14):
And obviously, yes, it's terrible for his family, right, his family,
but him, Like, I don't know, I don't know. Like
I don't know how to fully feel about those comments,
except that I don't fully agree. Yet I do feel
that that empathy should always and forever be extended to
the women he murdered and the entire.

Speaker 2 (44:31):
Families who are them.

Speaker 1 (44:33):
Yeah, their children, their sisters, their dads, they're I mean,
come on, yeah. And I want to end with the
quote I found by Christa Daring, executive director of Sex
Workers Outreach Project USA, and she said, part of what
is so saddening about these murders is that they are

(44:53):
so commonplace, and sex workers in general, but specifically those
working outside, must decide every day to risk their safety
in order to survive. The societal stigma against sex work
is a primary driving force behind this violence, and murders
of sex workers typically goes unreported. Yeah and yeah, that

(45:16):
is completely true. And I don't know, I mean, whenever
true crime podcasts talk about this case, it's like obviously
most of them because there's more information about you know,
the perpetrator than the victims.

Speaker 2 (45:35):
But like it's.

Speaker 1 (45:37):
Like going through everything but not emphasizing that, like, sex
workers face this type of violence the most. And another thing,
I know that you know, everyone likes to hate on OnlyFans,
but only fans gives power to sex workers because they
are their own bosses and they are able to do

(45:58):
their work online instead of being out on the street. Well,
it's like this christa daring cent on her quote. Yeah,
specifically those working outside, yeah are in the most danger. Yeah,
and it's true. But I did want to give a
shout out to Well, you all know we love Laney

(46:18):
Laney's podcast, True Crime Cases with Laney, But when Laney
talked about this this case shows an episode on this, Yes,
but you wouldn't know it because almost the whole thing
she just talks about the victims. She just talks about
them and I find it. Yeah, i'll give you the title.

Speaker 2 (46:36):
I just sent it to me.

Speaker 1 (46:37):
Yeah, well, i'll give you the title. Give me the title,
but send it to me. It's just titled the latter
the serial Killer. Okay, but she She even starts out
the episode talking about how the unfortunate reality is that
the perpetrators of violent crime disproportionately target specific groups of women,
people of color, members of the LGBTQ community, users, and

(47:00):
sex workers, and the victims of this man were all
of those things. Yeah, so, but yeah, it's a yeah,
it's a very informative episode on this, and yeah, I
mean we should always, I don't know, remember them obviously,
And yeah, I think, if not deal with but like,

(47:23):
how do you get I don't know, get rid of
the stigma of sex work? And oh, okay, I was
waiting for you to finish because I was about to
say that, Oh thank you.

Speaker 2 (47:30):
You're probably gonna say it in a much better way
than I.

Speaker 1 (47:33):
Yeah, we need to get over our hatred of sex workers,
because yeah, the stigma around sex work makes their work unsafe.
And not only does it make their work unsafe, but
it also brings shame to them. Right, So then they're

(47:54):
if they're wanting to leave that work, they're less likely
to leave that work because now they feel stuck. And
it also so makes victims of sex trafficking less likely
to come forward and seek help because now there's a
stigma type you know, to them as supposed sex workers,
although sex trafficking obviously is not the same. Yeah, And

(48:14):
that's why feminism is important. But not not just any
old timinism, you know what I mean, because there is feminism,
like an intersectional feminism.

Speaker 2 (48:25):
Yeah, then includes everyone.

Speaker 1 (48:27):
Not the other. There's turfs, there's swarfs, not all of those. Yeah.
And then like you know, people are always certain, people
are always talking about saying the children pizza gain blah
blah blah.

Speaker 2 (48:42):
But all of that for a lot of it's not real.

Speaker 1 (48:45):
Also, second, a lot of that would never happen if
sex work was destigmatized in the first place. So yeah,
and safer. So yeah, it starts with carrying about all people, right, Yeah,
bottom line, at the end of the day, have empathy,

(49:05):
care about others, and don't judge others unless it's for
things like going on killing sprees and being a border
patrol agent. Yes, thank you, Wow. Perfect, And with that
we will take a break here and come back with
spooky recommendations or what do they call it on kuts pooky.
They have a good name for a palate cleanser. Okay,

(49:34):
and we're back. Do you have either a spooky recommendation
or something to make us feel happiness? Again?

Speaker 2 (49:44):
There's my phone.

Speaker 1 (49:46):
I listened to listen to your Sister by Nina velh
have heard this. I was gonna ask you about it
because I saw it on your story graph. Yeah and again, Okay,
I know like you and another one in my friends
they see anything with low A four and they're like,
why didn't you like it? And I'm like, no, I
liked it. A three is alike.

Speaker 2 (50:06):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (50:07):
I was like me what Then I was like, oh,
that's yeah, you're right, yeah, yeah, So I read it
three point seventy five out of five. For me, three
means I like it, but there are some.

Speaker 2 (50:16):
Things that you did.

Speaker 1 (50:17):
I didn't like and I didn't love it for it
to be a four. But ratings are subjective and it
was an adorable book, I think.

Speaker 2 (50:26):
Okay, let me just read the description. Okay.

Speaker 1 (50:30):
Twenty five year old Kala Williams is struggling since becoming
guardian to her brother Jamie. Calla is overwhelmed and tired
of being the one who makes the sacrifices to keep
the family together. Jamie, full of good natured sixteen year
old recklessness, is usually off fighting for what matters to
him or getting into mischief, often at the same time. Dre,
their brother, promised he would help raise Jamie, but now

(50:50):
the ink is dry on the paperwork, and in classic
middle child fashion, he's off doing his own thing. And
through it all, the nightmare never stops haunting Calla, carrying
images of her brother's dying that she's powerless to stop.
When Jamie's actions at a protest spiral out of control,
the siblings must go on the run, taking refuge in
a remote cabin that looks like it belongs on the

(51:11):
slasher movie poster rather than an airbnb. The siblings now
face the new threat, where their lives and reality hanging
in the balance. Their sister always warned them about her nightmares.
They really should have listened. So I love the premise.
I'm like, well, what's going on here? So I liked
the sibling dynamics. I liked the horror was good. I

(51:33):
just think for me, it was a little bit too
and it could have been that I listened to the
audiobook instead of reading it, so we have three different
point of views, and sometimes you talk about the past
and something's a present, so that makes it a little
tricky for audiobook. So I think, yeah, it would have
been better if I read it. And then I think
the once they're in the in the horror, it lasts

(51:57):
a little bit too long. It's a little true, too
drawn out, like some parts of it. Yeah, but it
was really good still, and like I would describe it
as like an elder sisters or elder siblings assumed responsibilities
and resentments coming to life.

Speaker 2 (52:14):
Okay, I love that.

Speaker 1 (52:16):
Yeah, So I, like I said, it's so really good
and I think that people would enjoy it. Just for me,
I think the audiobook was a little bit harder to follow,
and I think it could have been shorter, Like I think,
I think it would have been better for shorter Okay, yeah, nice,
all right, I might check it out. I am currently

(52:42):
reading The Hunting of Room nine oh four by Erica T. Worth,
but I am only like thirty percent through, so I
can't say fully if I recommend it or not yet.
But the premise sounded cool enough, so let me share

(53:03):
that really quick. Olivia Becente was never supposed to have
the gift. The ability to commune with the dead was
the specialty of her sister, Niche knightsch I don't remember how,
I don't know how to say it. But when the
sister dies, I can't say her name. I'm sorry. Dies
unexpectedly and under strange circumstances. Somehow, Olivia suddenly can't stop

(53:26):
seeing and hearing from spirits. A few years later, she's
the most in demand paranormal investigator in Denver. She's good
at her job, but the loss of her sister haunts her.
That's what she hears from the Brown Palace, a landmark
Denver hotel. The owner can't explain it, but every few
years a girl is found dead in room nine oh four,
no matter what room she's checked into the night before.

(53:48):
As Olivia tries to understand these disturbing deaths, the past
and present collide as Olivia's investigation forces her to confront
a mysterious and possibly dangerous cult, a vindictive journalist, betrayal
by her friend friends, and shocking revelations about her sister's
secret life. So I mean it had me at someone

(54:09):
dying in room nine oh four. Every it was a year,
every few years, even though that's not the room they
slept in. Like the minute that I saw that, I
was like, I must, I must check this out. So again,
I'm not fully done with it. I don't know if
I can recommend it or not. I do have an
actual recommendation, though, I just want to share that that's

(54:30):
what I was reading. I went to watch twenty eight
years later, and I do recommend it. I think you
and I were already talked.

Speaker 2 (54:40):
Oh fuck, I dropped my fitches.

Speaker 1 (54:43):
I know you and I were already talking about it,
and I was telling Carmen that, like, I saw a
lot of complaints about it and not being not feeling
like a sequel, And I do agree that it doesn't
feel like a sequel, but I don't care.

Speaker 2 (54:55):
But you're fine with that.

Speaker 1 (54:56):
I'm fine with that. It doesn't matter to me because
it feels like just an installment in the universe of
these zombies of twenty eight years later or twenty weeks
days whatever. It's like it's happening in the same place,
in the same but it's not a continuation of like
the same exact people. You know. It's just a story

(55:17):
within this universe, and it's a coming of age story,
if anything. I love coming of age stories. Yes, a
story of a young person realizing that their father is
not who they thought they were. I love that, Yes,
because when we when you come to that realization, your
world shatters and you're fine later, you know, but for

(55:39):
that moment in time when you're grappling with that, wow wow,
it's like who who even at my life changing? And
so and naturally because of this discovery, he wants to
reject his father, but because of what his father has
taught him, he's able to survive. Wow wow wow wow.
And love how you said that too, Like that may

(56:00):
me want to watch it. At first, I'm like, I
don't really care if I watch it, But now that
you described it that way, it makes me want to
watch it. If if you don't go into it expecting
a straight up zombie movie, which I never do, I'm
therefore the drama. It's like drama in a zombie universe,
right yeah, yeah, and so again I love a comment
of h story. And then you know, someone realizing their
father's not who there they were grappling with that it's

(56:22):
when you look at it from that lens, it's it's
a beautiful story. The the way it was shot is
also so interesting, like it plays with the normal like
movie format to me, Like it's not like a straight
up like like there's some scenes where they almost seem
like jarring, like just like jumping. Okay, yeah, one sing

(56:42):
to another or like just the way it was shot.
But yeah, it's beautiful. Also like the I don't think
this is very much spoilers. I think this is in
the trailer, but they're on an island and like there's
this and this is like this is a real island,
but like it's connect to it's a real place, it's
a real place. It's connected to like England or Britain. Sorry,

(57:04):
I'm at the difference, and like there's I googled it
once and I freaga already. Yeah, I'm sorry. But there's
like water that whenever it's a high tide, the path
is covered, you can't go you can't go there at
the time. Fuel Yes, but it works if you're trapped. Yeah,
but it also works if you're like trying to stay

(57:25):
safe from zombies. They can't cross at a certain time,
you know, true. So yeah, I loved it. I loved it.
I do recommend it. If you're not expecting just another
sequel or like zombies alone, then yes. But if you're like, no,
I don't want any coming of age story, I hate kids,

(57:46):
I can't watch it, then don't them kids. But I
love a coming of age story I know. Yeah, same, yeah, same,
So yeah, that's that's why I do recommend it. And
so yeah, I feel that we have reach the end
of the episode. Unless you have anything else to share, no,

(58:07):
I think that's it. Okay, all right, and in that case,
stay a spooky. We'll catch e ryuin next time.

Speaker 2 (58:15):
Bye Bye.

Speaker 1 (58:18):
As Book Tells is hosted by Christina and Carmen, produced
and edited by Christina, researched by Christina Carmen and with
the help of Don shout out with Don. If you
aren't joining the podcast considerably going to say five star review,
we would really appreciate it. If you don't want to
the professor review, just don't leave a review, but don't
leave anything lower than that, please, I'm just kidding. You
can reach out to the podcast at a Spooktels at

(58:38):
gmail dot com. You can go to our website at
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you want to support the podcast, you can join our
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dollar members get an exclusive key chain. It's super cool.
I got new ones and these ones are huge. And
if you want to support, but you can or don't
want to join the Patreon, that's fine too. We can

(59:00):
also get some merch. You can find shurets to say
a spooky and old English letters. There's a beanie. I
love the beanie. There's also a hat. There's a no
Mamus shirt which is a fan favorite. There's a lot
of options, crap tops, sweaters. It's almost swetter weather. We're
nearing a Spookie season, so yeah, get your hoodies. You're

(59:20):
gonna need them. If you don't want to do all that,
that's fine too. You can just listen like you're listening now,
and that's the best support that you can give us,
like I always say in our ad break and yeah,
if you like history, you can follow Estoria's Unknown Mining,
Carmen's other podcasts, and you can find as spooky tails
on all of our socials at Spooky Tells All. This
is in the show notes and we appreciate every single listen.

Speaker 2 (59:43):
Thank you so much. Stay as spooky