Episode Transcript
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Candace Fleming (00:06):
Hello and
welcome back to another episode
of Essential Mental Healing.
We have had some ups and downs,some hiccups and things within
the show.
We've had our co-host out for afew weeks and of course she's
back and we are so enjoyinghearing her voice and her love
(00:30):
and what she brings to the show.
So hello and thank you again,Mother Janet Hale.
Janet Hale (00:37):
You are so welcome,
daughter Candace, my wonderful
sweetness.
Oh, thank you, and it's so goodto be you and it's so good to
be back and it's so good to bein your presence.
It's wonderful to have twogenerations here together.
Candace Fleming (00:52):
Doing the work
together.
It's always a pleasure, always.
And in this moment, my daughteris in another room Eating her
breakfast.
So you know, we're just alwaystrying to make the best of all
things, but we do have a guestwith us today, and it's always a
pleasure to have a guest.
Each guest brings something new, something different, some new
(01:15):
form of healing, and that's whatthis is all about.
It's all about our healing andhow we handle situations and how
to move into a positivedirection and how to just
overcome things.
And no, we're not alone.
We are not alone.
Just because our circumstancesare different from someone in
our circle doesn't mean we'realone.
So let's acknowledge that andjust know that we are moving
(01:39):
forward in all things.
But today, today, we have AnnRusso joining us.
Hello.
Ann Russo (01:49):
Ann, hello, hello
Candace, hi Janet, I'm so happy
Hello.
Candace Fleming (01:54):
Ann, hello,
it's so nice.
We've had the pleasure ofhaving a few minutes with you
prior to the podcast, you priorto the podcast, and I really
love your energy and I'm excitedfor what today brings and what
healing it brings for someoneelse.
So I want to go ahead.
(02:14):
I want to let you guys know whoAnn is, what she does and what
she brings, so I'm going to tellyou guys a little bit about her
.
So Ann Russo oh my God.
She is a dedicatedpsychotherapist and social
worker who's upbringing in aqueer household during the
(02:35):
transformation in the 80s and90s deeply influenced her
commitment to social justice andadvocacy to marginalized
communities.
I love that, I really do.
Holding an MA in theology fromLoyola Marymount University and
(02:58):
an MSW from California StateUniversity, long Beach, anne
combines her extensive educationwith the wealth and training
and public speaking toeffectively address the unique
mental needs of diversepopulations.
Thank you, anne.
(03:18):
And she is the founder andclinical director of AMR Therapy
since 2018, which means she hasa hand in this and has been
doing it and has seen peoplecome and go ups and downs and
has grown the organization toserve over 1,800 clients, that's
(03:41):
1,800 clients providingculturally affirming care to the
queer community, people ofcolor and those in diverse
alternative relationships.
Her work is marked by adedication to inclusivity and
sensitivity, which is one of thegreat things we talk about on
(04:04):
our podcast and one of thethings we hit on and one of the
things that we try to bring toour audience, expanding her
reach and now focuses onoffering continuing education
unit.
Those are CEUs, those in socialwork and everything know about
their CEUs and how you must getthe trainings and she does offer
(04:25):
that for trainings for mentalhealth professionals and
consulting for perspectiveprivate practice owners.
These initiatives aim toenhance skills in engaging with
the queer community, applyingsexual positivity therapy
approaches, positive sexualtherapy approaches, and we've
(04:47):
talked about sex addiction andthings on the podcast before, so
here's a follow-up and someonewho can help with these things
as well.
So we are just really lookingforward to that and her
understanding and alternativerelationship dynamics.
I don't know if you all arefamiliar with poly or
(05:11):
non-monogamous, ethical,non-monogamy relationships.
These are things that peopleare now coming into contact with
or now exploring because we'rein the time of exploring with,
are now exploring because we'rein the time of exploring.
So through her consultingservices and guides
practitioners in creatinginclusive practices that uphold
(05:33):
operational excellence andtherapeutic best practices.
I hope you guys heard thatTherapeutic best practices and
enduring advocacy andeducational endeavors continue
to drive significant change inthe mental health field,
supporting the well-being ofundeserved populations.
(05:55):
And I hope you guys heard thatwe are talking about supporting
the well-being of undeservedpopulations in the mental health
field.
And what's the name of ourpodcast?
Essential Mental Healing.
So this is right up our alley.
This is definitely somethingthat needs to be talked about,
(06:19):
something that needs to be heard, and we are super, super
excited to have thisconversation with you.
And but before we delve intoall of the excellence and
knowledge and education andexperience that you have, how
are you.
Ann Russo (06:36):
I am so excited to
speak to you both today.
You know, Candace, when yousaid we spoke for a few minutes,
you were downplaying that.
We spoke for hours because wewere just vibing so good
together and I'm just so excitedto bring that energy to the
podcast.
Candace Fleming (06:53):
Yes, absolutely
, it's so awesome to have you.
You know, um, I think we talkeda little bit before about my
mother's upbringing and how weand we've talked about this on
the podcast before how she wasraised in a home with a gay
uncle who had HIV, who died inthe home, but the home was so
(07:19):
homey and what I mean by that isloved and cared for.
There was no opposition orbecause you're this, you're no
longer a part of us.
It's oh, you're the took a bitefrom the apple, from the tree
of knowledge, opposed to thetree of life.
The tree of life would havegiven us eternal life, but the
(07:58):
tree of knowledge gave us death.
And I struggled with that.
As far as what does that trulymean?
As far as now, we die Like shedidn't die right then.
So in my mind, I think when I'mreading this okay, she ate the
apple, boom, she's dead.
But it just meant the beginningof something new and that was
(08:21):
knowledge for us in that time.
And so when I talk to you and Ihear your bio and I hear about
you and how you've continued toperpetuate something new, to
make it a norm, because nowwe're we're used to dying, I
mean that's the thing we knowdeath is coming.
Ann Russo (08:40):
Yes, yes.
Candace Fleming (08:42):
We don't.
We don't expect eternal death,we don't expect to live forever.
And so with that, in the newupbringing and new things and
new open experiences and newknowledge, we have a new healing
, we have a new way of life, wehave a new way of expressing and
entering things.
So with that one again, how areyou?
(09:04):
And just take us a little biton your journey, what the good,
the bad, the ups, the downs, andwe'll just have a discussion
around that.
Ann Russo (09:15):
Okay, okay.
So growing up I would say, aswe talked with your mom too, is
it was a really different time.
The 80s and 90s people were.
This is the rise of the I say,religious right, the very
conservative sect ofChristianity, and it was really
(09:35):
quite a pushback to LGBTQ folks.
So I live that time in fear,honestly in fear, because we
weren't allowed to share aboutour family, we weren't allowed
to say that.
You know, dad is a gay man, sowe lived with my mom, my dad,
(09:56):
his partner and I live with myyounger sister, so we lived in
this little bubble of secret, ofsecret secrets.
But it taught me a lot becauseI had the opportunity to meet a
lot of gay men specifically, andas this was the time of the HIV
(10:17):
and the AIDS crisis, so I saw alot of those people with the
HIV that would eventually turninto AIDS and people were
passing away a lot.
I can remember a time where Iwas asleep in my room and I
heard my dad and his friendcrying because one of their
friends had just passed awayfrom from AIDS.
(10:38):
So that was a very troublingtime and it gave me a heart for
what that experience is like andhow many people died alone.
You know.
(11:07):
So when I hear what you weresaying you know a moment ago
about your mom and Janet, youknow what you're saying about.
You know your uncle.
It's what a gift for everybody,because so many unfortunately,
unfortunately did not receivethat.
So I'd say that was a big piecethat highlighted childhood.
And social justice was anotherpart, because I firmly believed
as I got into high school thatthere needed to be space for
everybody and I was coming intomy own sexuality at the time and
(11:28):
that was a journey in and ofitself because, even though I
was raised in a gay household, Istill knew what society was
like.
So I tried not to be gay.
I tried so hard not to be.
The thing that I knew made ourfamily different.
That made us have to be asecret, that made my dad afraid
(11:48):
to go in public, sometimesworrying about being gay bashed.
I ended up meeting some peoplethat you know.
This was mid-90s, we're inCalifornia.
A lot of the friends that Imade were bisexual and they were
flirting around with theirsexual orientation at the time
and I was in complete shock thatpeople were open about this and
(12:14):
it took me, even though I knewabout myself.
It took me about six, sevenmonths before I even told any of
my friends that were alreadydating people of the same gender
.
You know, so it was, it was my.
It was a still another journeyon top of that and I, once I
came out, I felt this need to dosomething more.
(12:38):
And in my high school, Istarted the first Gay Straight
Alliance and we had to fight theschool board on that.
It was very difficult.
They pushed very hard back,with the help of some threats,
or I should say conversationsthat I had with the principal
around inviting the media totalk about us not being able to
(13:02):
have the club.
We were able to have our cluband we had some awesome teachers
that helped us and we were thefirst high school to ever march
in a gay pride parade back inthe mid nineties.
Wow, yeah, yeah, and so thatwas really awesome.
So that was kind of like thestart of the journey of social
justice and, you know, lookingat people's mental health and
(13:25):
how we can help stigmatize folks, and then it just kind of blew
up from there and here I am now.
Candace Fleming (13:30):
That's that is
um awesome that you were able to
kind of hone into what youneeded.
I have a question with when yousay you when you came out.
How old were you when you cameout?
Ann Russo (13:46):
So I knew that I was
attracted to women when I was in
kindergarten.
Wow, I knew that I was, but Ikind of just let it.
You know, I'm in kindergarten,so it's not.
There's not a whole lot ofthinking about sexuality at that
time.
But I knew there was somethingdifferent, right?
I told my dad when I was infifth grade and his response to
(14:15):
me was you know, honey, you'revery young still and that's
totally okay if you are, but youknow, like let's just take, you
can just take some time, andyou know like that could change
for you.
It might not change for you,but whatever it is, that's fine.
So there was no pressure to beanything.
And I know that sometimespeople may assume that gay
parents are making gay kids orthey want their kids to be gay.
But that was definitely not thecase in my family whatsoever,
(14:37):
and I don't I doubt it's thecase in any family really.
But you know he was verysupportive of whoever I turned
out to be.
Candace Fleming (14:49):
And then I came
out when I was a freshman in
high school.
So about 14, 15?
Ann Russo (14:53):
14.
Yeah, 14.
I felt so old then already,Really, you know I already had
known it for like eight years.
Yeah, that's true.
Candace Fleming (15:06):
That's very
true.
Eight years of hiding is a longtime.
Yeah, I have another question.
As far as so, you said yourfather was gay.
Yes, how long did you know yourfather was?
Ann Russo (15:18):
gay knew from the
time I was five.
Well, from the time I was five,he, he came out to his family,
my mom and everything.
When he, when I, when I, wasabout four and my sister was two
, and at five years old, we allmoved together with his partner
(15:39):
to another state and we alllived together.
Candace Fleming (15:41):
When you say we
all, did that include your
mother.
Ann Russo (15:43):
Yes, ma'am.
Janet Hale (15:47):
Wow, yeah, I heard
that yes ma'am.
Candace Fleming (15:49):
Wow, I heard
that when she said it earlier.
Yeah, that's quite amazing.
So your mother was verysupportive.
Were they married at any pointor were they just in a
relationship?
Ann Russo (15:56):
Yes, okay, they were
married.
They got married about fiveyears before my dad came out.
Candace Fleming (16:03):
Okay, and do
you know, have you ever had a
conversation with your dad aboutwhen this started for him and
what that looked like as far ashaving to hide that and then
being with a woman havingchildren and then deciding to
come out?
Did you ever get to have thatconversation and what that
looked like for him?
Ann Russo (16:22):
Oh yeah, with all of
my family members.
We're all pretty open aboutdiscussing our experiences,
feelings, emotions.
So he did not really recognizehis sexuality because where he
grew up, the time in which hegrew up, it just wasn't a thing.
People didn't really know whatit was, so it didn't, it wasn't
(16:43):
even on his radar.
Okay, you know, he got marriedto my mom and as time went on, I
think he started to realizethat something was different and
when he realized what was goingon, he tried to push it down
and push it away and he startedto get very sick and he told my
(17:03):
mom and my mom is actually theperson who suggested that he go
to a therapist, like to like,affirm who he was, whatever that
meant.
Yeah, and you know he, he did,you know, discover his sexuality
.
He, he was.
My mom told me this part,actually, that he came back to
the house and said I'm so sorry,but I'm gay.
(17:24):
Oh, what'm so sorry, but it'strue, I'm gay, you know.
So my mom, believe it or not,was very understanding and
accepting of that.
I mean, I know it was, it was.
I can only imagine you know itwas.
I'm sure it was so painful.
Candace Fleming (17:44):
Yeah, but she
wasn't.
Ann Russo (17:46):
She was accepting of
someone needing to be exactly
who they are.
Candace Fleming (17:50):
Yeah, that's
awesome.
So your father had the space tobe who he was.
Ann Russo (17:57):
Yeah.
Candace Fleming (17:58):
So let me ask
you this, for people who are
listening and may think like,okay, I know, I feel like my
parents would understand, butI'm still afraid.
And you held on for eight yearsand I know part of that was
just exploring who you were.
So do you feel like by 14, 15,you were able to sit in who you
(18:23):
were, or was it?
I'm making a decision?
What did that look like for you?
Because your father told you,oh, you're young, you're
exploring, so did it take timeto go?
Okay, I'm going to exploremales, I'm going to explore
females.
I'm going to check this wholething out and just see what
works for me, because we are ourown experience and I love the
(18:43):
fact that you took control ofyour own experience in your own
life and didn't live it forsomeone else.
Rather that was religiousteachings or not.
You know it's like, hey, thisis who I believe I'm to be, this
is what makes me happy and I'mokay with walking in this
purpose.
I'm okay with my spiritualconnection.
(19:05):
Whatever that looks like, it'snot between flesh and flesh,
this is between me and myspiritual connection.
So can you just kind of explainto me, or explain to us, what
those eight years of waiting tocome out looked like, felt like,
and what that relief was like,or non-relief was like at 14, 15
.
Ann Russo (19:25):
Okay.
So, being you know from fifthgrade through you know to ninth
grade, I was really struggling.
I can remember how absolutelydifficult that was.
I knew I was a tragedy.
(19:45):
Whitman, I admit I had a littlecrush on my teacher Shout out
if she's listening.
Yeah, I mean, she was awesome.
Which grade, which grade?
Candace Fleming (19:55):
Sixth grade.
Okay, so she know who she is.
Ann Russo (19:58):
Yeah, she know who
she is.
Yeah, sixth grade.
But I was so embarrassed ofthat, you know, and I tried to
hide this away so hard.
Like my friends, I'd be like,let's date, I want to date this
boy, I want to do this.
And I was definitely a kid whowas very tomboyish, so I wasn't
(20:21):
exactly one of those cute littlegirls fluttering around town.
So like it was a very it wasdifficult.
I tried to shove it down, shoveit down, shove it down, shove
it down, and it just made memore sick and it was through, I
think, me trying to shove my ownsexuality down and then having
(20:42):
to hide my family's situationtoo.
I finally did share about myfamily's situation with a
teacher that I had in eighthgrade who I still speak to.
She was an absolute lifesaverto me, the first person I ever
shared a feeling with.
Wow, yeah, yeah, so.
So when I finally did come out,I came out.
(21:07):
So my view, okay, of sexualityis very open.
I'm very open.
So I think some people are like, okay, I absolutely align with
being attracted to cis men orcis women, or I align with that
and that's great, wonderful, beyourself.
(21:28):
I think there's some peoplethat can float around a little
bit more on that scale, and Ithink some people lean more one
way or the other but can stillfloat around.
So I was.
I'm very open, even to this day, like I would never.
It's easier for me to say I ama queer woman, but if love finds
(21:50):
its way, I'm not one to say I'mnot going to have love.
You know, like, hey, like it.
That hasn't happened withanyone but a woman.
But why should I narrow myability to love?
But I'm going to honor myselfthe whole time.
(22:11):
I'm not going to try to besomething else or be attracted
to someone that I'm notattracted to.
Candace Fleming (22:15):
Right,
Absolutely Wow.
Janet Hale (22:21):
I want to jump in.
Go ahead, jump in, jump in.
Thank you so much and I soappreciate you being here.
I'm so appreciative to sharethis space with you today and as
I listen to you and I thinkback on my childhood as we
mentioned earlier, and living ina home with a gay uncle and
(22:44):
growing up knowing that he wasgay, you know what I mean Like
this was a thing.
It wasn't and it wasn't afamily secret, which was
interesting.
It was everybody knew and likewe wore.
We wore like a badge of honorand so we were like.
But we noticed that peoplethought we were different, like
(23:07):
the cat and mouse in front ofthe TV.
Oh, she's going to tell mybusiness, right, because we had
mice.
If they wanted the house,they'd have the TV.
Oh, she's going to tell mybusiness, because we had mice.
Candace Fleming (23:16):
It was the cat.
Janet Hale (23:18):
I'm about to get to
that part.
So we were watching TV, we hadcompany over.
She's throwing us all off track.
That's okay.
We were watching TV, we hadcompany over.
So my uncle, the gay uncle,went and got a cat so he could
handle the mice.
We're having company, it's dark, the cat and the mouse are
playing in front of the TV.
We're like what the hell?
(23:40):
So we're sitting going.
So my uncle's cursing the catout what good are you?
So I say all that to say thatthat's how I grew up.
You know I grew up in.
You know I tell you that story,but not once did we go.
(24:04):
Oh my God, oh my God, we havecompany.
No, we were like damn Kat, whatare you doing?
Candace Fleming (24:11):
We're having
this whole conversation with Kat
.
Janet Hale (24:14):
Nobody's running and
hiding or anything like that,
and the company that was in thehome was not reacting in a way
that would make us feel ashamedabout what was going on in the
moment.
And so you mentioned the wordqueer, and I know before we
started we talked aboutunderstanding, better
understanding, and I rememberwhen that word was not
(24:37):
acceptable and I hear it nowthat it's being used more often
than before.
So when I heard you say that, Ithought about that.
The other thing we talk about,the healing of the spirit.
We didn't say it like this, butthe spirit, the mind, the
physical.
We know that I have a problemwith my foot and I'm healing
(24:57):
through all that, but I'mconstantly on a mental health
healing journey and I've beenthere since I was very young and
didn't realize it, and so forme it boiled down to honesty,
(25:17):
and so sometimes when I walkedin the room, people didn't want
to see me coming.
What is she about to say?
Because I was just, I had athing about it.
There was something in me thatwould say this needs to be told,
whatever it is.
That would say this needs to betold, whatever it is, if it was
a story about molestation inthe family.
(25:37):
I'm having that conversation Ina room, in the living room,
full of company and people, withthe person sitting there and
everybody's looking at me.
They're rolling their eyes.
They're like, oh boy.
Oh I love this, but I would liketo think, because of that
(25:59):
experience, I saved somebody.
Yes, yeah.
And so that is where my mindgoes, you know when I think
about that.
The other thing I wanted to say, okay, when Ken was introducing
you, was that you work with theunderserved.
Because I was listening to it,I wanted to say something real
(26:21):
quick because it sounded likeanother word was coming out
Marginalized people.
And I'm finding, as I get older, that what we consider to be
abnormal is more normal.
Nothing is new under this sun,none of it.
If we go back in history andsound like you have from one of
(26:42):
your degrees, you go back inhistory homosexualities or gay,
whatever words they used backthen, I'm not sure what the
words were, but it was happening.
So nothing is new under the sun.
And so now we talk about andI'm going to use the word fluid
(27:02):
because that's the word of theday Love is love, whatever that
love is.
And so for any of us anywhereto recognize what love is and
let it come whatever form itcomes in, to be open to it,
(27:23):
because I've seen those whonormal homes, not that happy.
And so what is normal in myeyes and I'm the hippie of the
group, I'm okay with it, I'mlike, I live with it, I love it,
I'm going to get it.
I think I'm going to haveCandace make me a badge for my
(27:46):
next birthday or something, Idon't know.
Candace Fleming (27:49):
It's coming in
June.
It's coming in June.
What do you want?
A badge of?
Janet Hale (27:54):
the hippie, the
hippie thing.
I like to do the hippie thing.
When I was listening to youabout that, growing up in the
80s and watching my uncle haveto deal with the death and they
had the ACT medicine, I think itwas and he stopped going to
support groups because peoplewere dying and I remember saying
(28:17):
Tom, how come you're not goingto the?
And one day he just said it, hesaid I can't go back, we're
losing people.
We're losing people.
And so for me, I feel althoughfor some folks they look at my
household and say that was themost dysfunctional household on
the block For me it was thebiggest gift I could have ever
(28:39):
gotten, because I was introducedto so many different things
that would have been considerednot normal.
Therefore, my eyes, when I seea person, I see me, if that
makes any sense at all yes, youknow.
So Candace is about to put me on.
Candace Fleming (29:00):
I am, I am
because I wanted to go back to
and we've talked about thisbefore generational curses, and
how generational curses, atleast in my exploration, in my
knowledge, and what I believe tobe true is about not teaching
the past curses so that theydon't even have to deal with
(29:22):
that to try to break it.
Breaking it is just notteaching it, and so I feel like
and but also with that comes thestorms to get to a place of
calmness.
So, for your household, youfelt like you grew up and people
looked at you weird anddifferent and at that time that
(29:43):
didn't look normal.
However, we fast forward totoday.
It would have been moreacceptable for you and your
household, mom, it would be moreacceptable today to have what
you had, but part of that waspeople like your household had
to make the way.
(30:03):
You had to go through somethings.
You had to go through somechastisation, you had to go
through some judgment.
You had to make it through thatto say this is our life, this
is my life and this is thepurpose I'm going on in order to
.
You've had a happier timeliving your truth than living
(30:24):
what other people felt yourtruth should be.
Janet Hale (30:27):
Exactly.
Candace Fleming (30:28):
Go ahead, Anne.
Janet Hale (30:30):
That is so true,
that's such a true statement, um
, and I can always tell when I'mnot living in my truth because
I'm so uncomfortable you know, Iknow someone who actually
stayed married.
Candace Fleming (30:45):
Um and this
kind of goes back to your story
she found out that her husbandwas gay.
However, she tried to maintainher marriage for the child.
They had a child together andso she wanted to kind of stick
in there.
However, it wasn't the but.
For that particular situation,it wasn't necessarily
(31:08):
homosexuality that got in theway, it was the person's
demeanor.
They weren't kind, they werebeing demeaning, and part of
that sometimes come when you'reliving in a life of shame.
You start to project thingsonto other people, so you're
unhappy within, so you're likeokay, well, everyone else is
going to be unhappy too.
(31:28):
I'm going to yell at you, I'mgoing to curse at you, I'm going
to tell you bad things aboutyourself.
However, this particular persondid go as long as they could
until their child graduated andthey were able to, you know,
kind of go around things in thatway.
Ann Russo (31:44):
Yeah.
Candace Fleming (31:45):
So just living
that truth.
Ann Russo (31:48):
Yeah, and you know,
Candice, the thing that about it
is it's going to look differentfor everybody, and I think that
that's the key, especially, youknow, Candice, the thing that
about it is it's going to lookdifferent for everybody, and I
think that that's the key,especially, you know, as a
therapist, you know it's whenpeople come in, I don't have
like this prescription for them,Like okay, so this is what it's
going to look like for you,Right?
Like I want to know.
For some folks it may be Irealize that I'm gay, but I'm
(32:14):
happy in this relationship.
I want to stay in thisrelationship, but we're
monogamous.
What am I going to do with this?
So it's like it's figuring outwhat makes sense for the person
involved.
I am not one to say this is whatyou have to do, and I think
that that's important because Iwork with a lot of religious
(32:35):
folks too, and some of thosereligious folks do not want to
act on their sexual desire.
Now, while that may not be mypersonal perspective, my role is
to support them and theiridentity, and if they're telling
me what I want, then let's talkabout how you can be your best
(32:56):
self.
What does being your authenticself look like.
So I'm very much on the ilk ofreally supporting the individual
or the family for what it meansfor them to be happy and
authentic not what I perceivefor them to be happy and
authentic.
Candace Fleming (33:13):
I love that.
Let's switch over, because youdo coaching, so let's switch
over and just kind of talk aboutwhat you do for those who come
to you.
Like you said, I love that yousupport people on their journey,
no matter what that journey is.
So if that looks like I'm inthe closet and I'm trying to
(33:33):
figure out how to come out to myfamily, okay, let's explore
that.
If that's, I see that I'mattracted to the same sex and I
don't want to be to be able toshare that, okay, let's explore.
Let's make you your bestversion of yourself so that you
(33:57):
have no shame within yourself,so that you can live your best
possible life in your true,authentic self.
Ann Russo (34:06):
And so let's just
talk.
Candace Fleming (34:08):
Oh, I'm so
excited.
Ann Russo (34:10):
Yes, exactly Exactly.
I think that's a nuance.
It's so hard for people to likeunderstand it is.
But, like you know, when thepractice and being like I'm
working with queer people, Icould see some folks who might
maybe be religious or feel likethis doesn't feel safe for me or
my child's trans, and I don'tunderstand that I may not seem
like a safe person but I wanteveryone to know that I am a
(34:35):
safe person because I hear you.
Candace Fleming (34:36):
I hear you, yes
.
Ann Russo (34:36):
I hear you, yes, I
hear you.
I hear you, I understand Idon't have I see you, yes, yes,
deep empathy all the way aroundfor everybody you are important
yes.
Janet Hale (34:46):
One of the things I
thought about when I was
listening to you, ann, was thetrauma-informed care.
Your approach is atrauma-informed care approach,
which is for those who don'tknow and I know Ann knows
because she's still here is wework in partnership.
Not that I'm here to fix you,I'm here to assist you.
Candace Fleming (35:07):
There we go.
Janet Hale (35:07):
Because you are the
expert of your life right.
There we go and so I am here tohelp you and guide you through
it in the areas in which youfeel that you need it, say that
again, you are the expert ofwhose life?
You're the expert of your ownlife.
Candace Fleming (35:24):
You know your
life better than anyone else.
Janet Hale (35:28):
I am here.
I'm your partner in helping youget through whatever the issue
is For you in this moment.
Ann Russo (35:36):
Yes, 100%.
Candace Fleming (35:39):
Absolutely I.
Now, ann, I have a questionGrowing up and now I know you
said you knew Things weredifferent.
Were you interested in bothsexes?
Yeah, what did that look like?
And that exploration.
Ann Russo (35:59):
And.
Candace Fleming (36:00):
I say that for
parents who are trying to figure
out how to deal with theirchildren, who are trying to
figure it out.
So how can a parent help assista child who is exploring, and
what that looks like.
Ann Russo (36:16):
Okay so I'm going to
stick specifically to sexual
orientation on this piece, justbecause I don't have, I haven't
had, a gender identity concernin my life.
Okay, so I want to stick justto the sexual orientation piece.
So who I'm attracted to?
(36:37):
Right, I think it can ebb andflow and I think when you're
younger, you know you're like,you know there's these jokes
that people make, like you know,college is a time where people
explore their sexual orientation.
Or, like you know, this girlhas a girlfriend but then she
married a guy.
Like there's, that is real talk.
Okay, like, everybody that Iknew was exploring more women
(37:01):
than men because I think it wasmore acceptable in society at
that point.
Janet Hale (37:06):
Yeah.
Ann Russo (37:06):
I don't know what
it's like now for the younger
generation.
I think exploration is normaland I think it's healthy.
I think that you just teachyour children to be safe.
You teach them to respectthemselves, children to be safe.
You teach them to respectthemselves.
You teach them aboutenthusiastic consent and you and
(37:27):
you really teach them.
You know that in respectingothers.
If we can teach children that,I think they'll make better
choices.
They're going to make some realwhoppers because we do our
brain not fully developed.
They're going to make some realwhoppers because we do our
brain not fully developed.
We're going to do some.
We're going to make some badchoices, but we don't know that
(37:49):
are going to, you know, destroyour lives.
They can be learningexperiences and when it comes to
exploring sexuality, you knowthat doesn't necessarily mean
that it has to mean you'rehaving a sexual relationship
with someone.
It just means like you'reexploring maybe what your
feelings look like towardspeople and what that means for
(38:10):
you.
Janet Hale (38:11):
So, ann, would it be
safe to say for a child who is
dealing with that, whetherthey're gay or not, to make the
space as comfortable and as safeas possible for them to be able
to express it and to know thatit's okay.
(38:33):
Yes, whatever that is thatyou're feeling, it is okay here.
Ann Russo (38:39):
And they will come
into themselves.
Candace Fleming (38:41):
They will but
they're young.
Ann Russo (38:43):
Young people are
exploring, you know they don't
know what career they want.
They don't know what kind of Imean, you know.
I mean that's just real, likeyou're in that space of just
absorbing and learning the.
The thing that will hurt themis if you tell them who they are
, how they are and who theycan't be.
That's where you're going tocause some trauma and that's
(39:05):
where that that will carry withthem through the through their
life.
Candace Fleming (39:09):
Unfortunately,
you know, I, um, I do know a
child who has is kind ofidentifying with what their
sexuality is.
Um however they're, however,they are exploring.
They're young, so they'reexploring like is it boys, is it
(39:31):
girls, is it both?
And so just kind of guiding theparent through how to handle
that situation and just being asupport system or even what
qualities to look for in a humanbeing it doesn't matter what
their gender is, whether it'smale, female, trans.
(39:54):
How does this person treat you?
What are their morals andvalues?
Just the same things you dowith homosexual relationships.
It's the same thing.
What qualities in a person doyou want?
What are your non-negotiables?
Especially as a child, we haveto focus on things that are
(40:16):
relatable.
So does this person like mathand reading?
Do they pay attention to theteacher?
Are they respectful?
Are they kind?
Do they show integrity?
You know we have to bring it toan age level reference of
things as an adult, of course.
Are they responsible?
Do they have discipline?
(40:37):
Are they kind?
Some of the same things arethrough lines.
Do they show love?
Do they speak to you withrespect?
Are they not disrespecting you?
Just kind of certain throughlines that, no matter where you
are in your life and yourjourney, there are certain
things that you just kind ofhave to pay attention to with
(40:58):
humans and your situation andyour life.
So, and as adults, as parentswho are guiding people going
through their discovery of life,and you know what, honestly,
even in a homosexualrelationship, you're still
figuring it out.
It's just figuring out withthat, that sex, which way you
want to go like.
(41:18):
Do I want someone who'sclassical and loves jazz?
Do I want someone who loves hiphop?
Do I want someone who lovestheir mother?
Do I want someone who haschildren or don't have children?
You know, it's still the samebasis of the genuine humanity of
(41:40):
humanity.
When you break it down to asimplistic level and some of
that goes back to the book ofthe Power of Now, right now,
what is it, what does it looklike right now?
What is it right now that'sgoing to make you happy?
Let's focus on this.
What is the solution to what isdriving you crazy?
What are your trigger points?
(42:00):
What is it that got you there?
Now, let's find the solution,because we know how to be there.
We know what that looks like.
We know what that feels like,and we don't like it.
So now how do we approach it ina different way?
And maybe that means looking atsomeone who's been through a
situation and having aconversation with them.
What did that look like for you?
(42:21):
And that doesn't mean followthe exact same blueprint that
they did.
It's oh well.
I want understanding.
I want quote unquote knowledgeof the situation.
The more knowledge I have, thebetter I can deal with
situations the better I can dealwith things, and I think that
that's something that the threeof us have really kind of
(42:41):
figured out.
And the more we live in it andI've talked about this before
when you live in your true self,the more people who are like
you will gravitate to you.
You'll have a happier and Italk about this all the time.
Cardi B I could not stand hervoice in the beginning.
I thought she was ratchet, Ithought she was ghetto.
I was like who let her on thisshow?
(43:02):
Like love and hip hop, what arey'all doing now?
Like this is ratchet andridiculous.
However, in my ratchet time ofwatching my love and hip hop
because I enjoy it and I willcontinue to enjoy it when I do
and when I will and that's okayGuilty pleasure.
However, today, on April 20thhappy 420 everyone, which is
(43:24):
when we're recording this 2024,we're able to do things
differently at the end of theday and look at things
differently.
Look at them wholly andholistically, and when I say the
word holistically, it makes methink of how the Chinese do
(43:48):
their preventative opposed tofixing the problem universe,
then we can I believe we canbuild a healthier universe
nation, all of the things,whether it's North America,
(44:10):
south America, asia, europe,australia, seven of them, all
the continents.
Janet Hale (44:18):
Yeah, she said it's
seven of them, it's seven of
them.
Candace Fleming (44:22):
It's seven of
them.
I, the continents, yeah, yeah,yeah, the seven of them, the
seven of them.
I do know that.
Yes, but you know, at the endof the day, that's really what
this is about.
It's all about these healthyrelationships.
Janet Hale (44:35):
Yes, I think the
healthy relationship starts with
self, and it came up a fewtimes in our conversations,
stuffing who we are, who I am,who you are.
And there's a saying you're assick as your secrets.
And that is such a truestatement.
(44:56):
Because that will keep you sick.
Yes, it will, because eitheryou're going to drink it away,
eat it away, oh, Solange has asong.
Candace Fleming (45:10):
Oh my God, are
you quoting Solange's song?
No, oh my goodness.
My accident, maybe.
No, I'm talking to both of you.
Janet Hale (45:19):
Okay, and so you
will find ways to numb that
whatever that is, and to learnthat you don't have to.
It's okay to live in your truth.
Yeah, because if you don't, wewill get sick.
Ann Russo (45:35):
Yes.
Janet Hale (45:36):
It's going to happen
and I don't know how it shows
up.
It shows up different fordifferent people.
But, to live in our truth.
Yes, absolutely.
Candace Fleming (45:46):
What was your
greatest healing moment?
What does it look like?
Do you remember the revelation?
Do you remember the moment andI mean like that moment, not
that you were healed or that youhad conquered at the moment
where you were like I got it?
Ann Russo (46:02):
I know I'm going to
live my life.
Candace Fleming (46:03):
What did that?
Ann Russo (46:03):
look like Okay.
So let me I'm going to say yeah, minus the S, because I think
some of that I'm still figuringout, Because we're living.
Candace Fleming (46:13):
Yes.
Ann Russo (46:14):
Yes, but the moment
where I felt clarity, so I
didn't touch on this too much,so I'll make a quick.
There was a time when I wasreally struggling with the
religiosity piece and thesexuality piece, very deeply
struggling with understandingthat, and that was in my late
teens to mid twenties, and Ispent a lot of time in a church
(46:38):
that did not think it was okayto be gay.
Now I did not ever really feellike it wasn't okay, but I
wanted to understand why thesepeople were holding this
perspective.
So I did a lot of soulsearching and I was looking for
this answer.
(46:58):
I can't even tell you what thiswas like.
I did everything to try to findthis answer.
I got my bachelor's in religiousstudies, my master's in
theology, right.
Like I went in this um, went onmissions trips, talked about
God, constantly read, studied,met people, anything you could
think of.
I was doing it, I was lookingfor God.
And one day I don't even knowman, God just kind of took over,
(47:26):
I think, because I was like,wait now, God made me.
Yeah, God made me, and I'mquestioning a lot of these
things that do not make any kindof sense to me Now, if I'm made
in the image of God and thisdoesn't make sense.
Then maybe there's something tothe fact that this actually
(47:48):
doesn't make sense and I don'tknow how to describe it.
But all of a sudden I was atcomplete peace with my spiritual
relationship, with who I am andhow I'll continue to grow, and
no, and nobody could sayanything to me that would make
(48:09):
me question whether or not I was, you know, in the image of God,
whatever you believe, likethere was nobody that could make
me question that love or thatrelationship, that there was
something like intrinsicallywrong with me, and that probably
was in my early, my midtwenties maybe, but it's been
solid Like I have never and I'veheard and seen everything under
(48:32):
the sun I could talk to someonewho's complete in disagreement
with me.
I still have a lot of love inmy heart.
I'm good because I found thatwithin myself and that was a
real revelation, a real time ofpeace.
Janet Hale (48:49):
Yes, so that has
been.
I got that real early on as alittle girl, but I couldn't
speak on it because it'schildren Don't talk about that.
And so you heard me refer tomyself as a hippie.
Yes, because I don't use theword God a lot.
(49:15):
I would say universe.
Ann Russo (49:16):
Yeah, yeah.
Janet Hale (49:18):
However, I'm open to
however people get down with it
.
I'm going to use the word Godtoday, and that is to say this
we are all a part of God, yeah,so what is the other?
(49:41):
Yeah, yep.
So what is there to question?
Yep, what is there to question,yep?
And so once we in my opinionand it's been my opinion before
everybody started having allthese conversations about things
, I was always like well, god isa loving God.
How come God don't love him orGod don't love her?
(50:04):
That never made sense to me,ever.
And my mother used to get soupset with me, janet, I said no,
mom, I just don't, they don't,I don't think I agree with that
and I didn't.
And guess what?
I still don't.
I agree with that and I didn't.
And guess what?
I still don't?
Yep, Right, yep.
It's about love.
(50:25):
Yes, period, yes, that's it,and that's where I go with it.
The hippie in me, she's soproud and happy.
Candace Fleming (50:37):
She don't know
what to do with herself.
Well, you know, ann, this hasreally been a pleasure.
We are coming up on our time,um, having this has been one of
the most fluid just listeningconversations, um, and learning
(50:57):
experiences of just having anatural human conversation.
I do think that your experienceand your words will definitely
touch and heal someoneespecially struggling today.
You have, you both have greatexperience.
(51:17):
I too, my ex-husband, has a gaysister nephew.
I too have a gay cousin andraising my child, who is eight
years old and this time and ageis different, because there is
(51:44):
the whole thing of do you haveconversations in school about
what your sexuality is?
Are you allowed to say, hey, Imay not be attracted to the
opposite sex, it may be the samesex?
How do you address friends atthis age?
Because, I mean, in ahomosexual community, it's easy
to be eight and say I like thatboy, a girl, or, as a boy, and
(52:05):
say I like that girl and it'stotally normal.
We just talk about, oh well,you know, no kissing, no
touching.
But what happens in thisgeneration when we have kids who
see it and are, well, maybe Ido like the same sex?
So now my friend has becomeattractive, as if the opposite
(52:26):
sex.
There's a lot to deal withbecause I know, growing up for
me, my mother didn't allow me tostay the night at houses where
there were brothers, where therewere boys, because of that
whole whole what could happen.
But now we have the well, ifit's a boy or a girl, it's kind
of so, you know, just kind ofhandling the age where sexuality
(52:51):
is more acceptable.
But how do we deal with it whenwe're trying to prevent certain
things that are still humanity?
You know, we're still dealingwith body boundaries, whether
it's same sex or opposite sex.
We're still dealing withappropriate ways to handle our
bodies, whether it's same sex oropposite sex.
(53:15):
At the end of the day, we'reall dealing with the same human
problems.
So how do we deal with that inthis day and age?
And I think we're all still ona discovery, on an exploration
on how we get there.
And there are people who arereally struggling to the point
where they don't know if theywant to live.
(53:36):
And of course, I always giveout the suicide number.
You can call or text 988 forfree and confidential
information throughout theUnited States, 24 hours, seven
days a week.
If you are struggling.
You can reach out to therapists.
Therapists are so much morereadily available and I always
(53:56):
want to say, if you do decide tosearch for a therapist, find
one that is right for you.
If you feel, oh, this therapistdoesn't make me feel good, it's
okay to say this isn't a goodfit and I'm going to look for
another therapist.
Because everyone isn't foreveryone.
Everyone's belief systems,everyone's education is
(54:19):
different.
So you are going to have tofind someone who is relatable to
you and can help you in yoursituations.
And let's say, we push theagenda of therapy, therapy,
therapy.
But reality is you need a safeplace, a safe person to talk to,
judgment free, where you can beyourself and explore your
(54:43):
purpose in life and what God'swill is for you, the universe's
will is for you.
So I do want to make sure thatI do my due diligence and give
my audience that kind ofstatement as we explore life.
Is there anything that you twowant to make sure we give to the
(55:06):
audience?
Release to them, touch to themand just help them on their
journey of healing.
Janet Hale (55:13):
I wanted to say
something.
You mentioned problems.
When I heard that word, Ithought some of the things that
we're talking about and ourchildren are dealing with, and
even us as adults are dealingwith, are not so much a problem.
We're not all problems.
We're looking for differentways to maneuver through things
(55:34):
and looking for solutions to asituation opposed to a problem,
all the time, absolutely, andthat was something that I wanted
to say, and I also wanted tosay that this program or this
podcast has been great, becausethe way of healing looks
(55:58):
different to different people.
Candace Fleming (56:01):
Yeah.
Janet Hale (56:02):
And we touch upon
different ways of doing it.
It's not just a cookie cutterway of doing it.
You know we're like.
You can try this.
You know we, candace and I,have talked about death and
we're laughing and talking and Iguess people are saying what is
?
And we're like no, we're livingoff the memory.
(56:22):
That was funny.
You remember when so-and-so didso-and-so.
Yeah, okay, but that doesn'tmean that we have not grieved.
It doesn't mean that we're notstill grieving, but we have
learned to hold on to certainthings that are good within the
grieving.
(56:43):
Yes, and so this program, in myopinion, is just, it's a great
source of information andresource.
Yes, you know?
Yeah, that's all I had to say.
Candace Fleming (57:01):
It's on you,
ann, what you got.
Ann Russo (57:03):
I just wanted to
piggyback off what you were
saying about therapy is just areminder to folks out there that
I do have a therapy practicewith 15 therapists that all
specialize in this work, and wedo operate on a sliding scale.
Nice, yeah.
(57:25):
So we we operate in variousstates in the country.
All they need to do is go tothey.
Actually, you can just email meat Ann A-N-N at A-M-R
therapycom.
Just put essential in there.
I'll know who you are and theand the headline and I will make
sure to get you hooked up witha consult to work with one of
our therapists.
(57:45):
And if you just need somesupport, we have support
services too, and I can also doconsulting, coaching around
these areas working with parentswho are struggling, kids that
are struggling, anybody thatwants to talk about these issues
like I'm 100% here to support.
(58:06):
So just email me and putessential there in the headline
and I'll know where you camefrom and we'll do our thing.
Candace Fleming (58:15):
What is the fee
range?
Ann Russo (58:25):
fee range.
So the fee range is between 60and 150.
Most people are on the, on thelower end, and that's absolutely
fine, and for support servicesit's a little bit cheaper and
for some folks we will go eveneven lower.
We got to stay in business,obviously.
Candace Fleming (58:36):
Right, right
right.
Ann Russo (58:37):
We don't want to keep
our good therapist, but we do
our best to make it manageableand we also hold groups and
things like that.
Candace Fleming (58:45):
Do you have, do
you take insurance, or are you
cash only?
Ann Russo (58:49):
We are cash pay only,
but if you are in California or
Nevada we can do a PPO superbilling.
Candace Fleming (58:55):
Oh, which is a
reimbursement from your
insurance for out of networkservices?
Yes, which is a reimbursementfrom your insurance?
Ann Russo (59:01):
for out of network
services.
Yes, and I'm going to bestarting up a group about the
intersection of Christianity andqueerness, and anyone is
welcome to join that group.
It's going to be a small, smallgroup but if it gets traction
I'll run it several times.
But if you're interested indoing that again, just reach out
to me.
I'm happy and here to help.
(59:21):
I just want to spread love andauthenticity and have people you
know feel like they're doingtheir thing and living their
best life.
Candace Fleming (59:29):
And is this in
person or online?
It is via Zoom.
Janet Hale (59:33):
Perfect.
Candace Fleming (59:34):
So anywhere you
are in the world, you are
welcome to this group and giveus that where to log sign in at
again.
Ann Russo (59:43):
So you can just email
me directly or you can go to
the website, which isamrtherapycom or annrussonet.
Candace Fleming (59:56):
All right, and
spell that.
Spell that for us, ann Russo,all right.
Ann Russo (01:00:00):
And spell that.
Spell that for us, ann Russo.
A-n-n-r-u-s-s-o.
If you just plug that in therewith L-C-S-W, it'll pop up.
Candace Fleming (01:00:12):
You'll see the
business and other stuff.
But hopefully, and last thing,what topics or what kind of
situations can people come toyou with?
Ann Russo (01:00:22):
or in what kind of
situations can people come to
you with?
Anything that's involved inqueerness?
So coming out, family memberscoming out, transitioning
partner, transitioningrelationship issues,
non-monogamy, opening up arelationship, kink, bds, this
(01:00:47):
yeah, I'm here for all the stuffthat we don't learn in grad
school.
Candace Fleming (01:00:50):
Perfect with
the experience.
Guys, this isn't just.
Oh, I woke up one day anddecided this is the population.
No, no physical, mental,spiritual, emotional experience
which is actually better thanany school can actually give you
.
So, just so you know.
But yes, so of course, you guys, if there's anything, if you
(01:01:16):
want to speak to Ann aboutwhatever you're going through,
actually I may have to sendsomeone your way, actually, okay
, but yeah, so, thank you all somuch.
Of course, you can find me atessentialmotivationcom, candice
Fleming.
At essentialmotivationcom.
You can email me If you'relooking to be a guest on the
show.
Just put EMH in the subjectline podcast guest, and we'll
(01:01:39):
definitely look forward togetting you.
We are.
We will be coming up on ourseason in in June, so we got a
little bit of time, but we thankyou all so very much.
I am just really electrified byour conversation today.
It was really really great.
I really appreciate you and Ilove the conversation.
(01:02:00):
I love you.
We must remain in contact.
Uh, yeah, I'm looking for.
We're gonna have you again, forsure on one of our next seasons
.
I'm loving it all.
Right, guys, thank you to ourguests who listen.
(01:02:21):
We definitely we can't do itwithout you.
We're so happy that you guysare listening and I hope you
enjoyed today's show, likesubscribe and all of the
wonderful things, so alwaysremember to love hard, forgive
often and laugh frequent.
Thanks, guys, bye.