August 4, 2021 • 55 mins
In this episode, I’m joined by Dr. Karen M. Bryson — aka Dr. B — a USA TODAY bestselling author, university professor, and the host of The Curious Professor podcast. With a Ph.D. in Human Science, Karen is a renowned expert in storytelling, curiosity, personal development, and lifelong learning. She is a true curator of curiosities who uncovers fascinating stories in unusual places. On her podcast, she invites listeners on a journey of discovery, exploring intriguing people, places, artifacts, and natural wonders that spark curiosity and inspire creativity. Her mission is to inspire courageous curiosity, a sense of wonder, and a love of learning in others.
Karen has authored over 50 books, with decades of experience in writing fiction and nonfiction. She now provides a platform for others to share their stories, emphasizing the power of storytelling to create personal growth and transformation.
In our inspiring conversation, Karen shares her journey of personal growth, education, and professional success—from spending Saturdays exploring libraries as a curious child to becoming a university professor, author, and podcast host. We discuss the importance of curiosity as a key driver for self-discovery, creativity, and mindset development. Karen also reflects on how continuous learning and embracing curiosity fuel emotional intelligence and resilience throughout life. Plus, she shares a powerful question that challenges listeners to rethink their identity and potential.
If you’re interested in personal development, storytelling, curiosity, education, creativity, and lifelong learning, this episode is packed with valuable insights and inspiration. Don’t miss out—check out The Curious Professor podcast at thecuriousprofessorpodcast.com. All details are in the show notes.
Tune in to explore wonder, discovery, and how stories can transform your life and mindset.
Connect to Karen on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter and YouTube.
Guest: Dr. Karen M. Bryson
Host: Urmi Raval
Sound Editor: Maja Pronko
Final Thoughts & How to Get Involved
If this episode resonated, I’d love to hear from you. These stories are a reminder that deep transformation is possible, even from the most difficult places.
If you're ready to explore therapeutic coaching or want to understand how it could support your journey, get in touch. This work can be truly life-changing. Get in touch with me for a Discovery Call
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Welcome to Eternal Paradigm.
Together, we're uncovering humanexperience by exploring
physical, mental, emotional, andspiritual stories.
With me, your host, Ermi Ravel.
Hello, welcome to this episodeof Eternal Paradigm.
I hope you're enjoying yourjourney to find you.
(00:23):
I have no idea right now if youcan hear all of the background
noise that's going on around me.
If you can't, then that's okay.
I can give you a little snapshotof what it is.
So we're heading into the summerholidays and I am pretty sure
that recording has just comethrough.
(00:43):
The kids are all out playingfootball, which is great, which
also means they're all occupied.
They're all doing somethingactive.
They're all having a lot of fun,but they're also very noisy.
I've been recording most of mypodcast conversations in the
evening or in daytimes when thekids are at school.
(01:04):
Things are now changing, so youmay hear them in the background.
I'll give you a little heads upon what today's episode is
about.
But before I do that, just aquick reminder.
Head over to Eternal ParadigmPodcast on Instagram.
I have an amazing communitythere.
There's the Facebook page andthere's the Facebook group.
(01:28):
And again, I am going to put myhands up.
I haven't been totally active inthe Facebook group, but that's
okay because if you join thecommunity, it's an open group.
Feel free to share.
We're going to move on.
So there are a few things in thepipeline for the podcast.
We are nearing the end of thisseries.
(01:49):
I have flipped things around alittle bit.
So we are still on series one.
And while series one has beenairing, we also had series two,
which was the transformationseries in January.
And then we had series three,which was the creativity series,
which was absolutely incredible.
(02:10):
We're going to be heading intorounding off this series.
And I'm really, really excitedbecause it is now heading into
August.
when this episode will go live.
And very soon, not very long togo now, it will be a year since
Eternal Paradigm was launched.
(02:32):
And it's only when I was talkingto my guest in this episode that
she pointed this out to me.
And it was quite a surprise,actually.
It was like this realizationthat I hadn't even thought about
that a year will almost go by.
But it's all here now.
to carry on.
Lots of exciting new thingshappening.
(02:54):
So as I mentioned in a previousepisode, I have got an event
that I am going to be runningand more details about this are
to be shared very soon.
It's the Inner ChildExploration.
That's the first thing.
The second thing is the EternalParadigm Podcast rebrand that is
definitely in the pipeline.
(03:16):
The website you will see hasshifted over.
However, I am still in theprocess of putting together all
of the guest profiles.
That is something I'm reallylooking forward to.
What else has been happening,guys?
What else has been happening?
Tell me.
talk to me.
I always love hearing from you.
(03:37):
It was actually quiteinteresting because I had a
conversation with someone andthey were just telling me that
they're not too sure that humanexperience is all that it's cut
out to be.
I thought that was quite aninteresting thing to say because
obviously interesting is myfavorite word, firstly.
And secondly, because I I justbecame really curious about what
(04:01):
their experience was about.
But I couldn't really ask thatquestion in too much detail.
I don't think they would havebeen very welcoming to me
probing.
So I didn't.
I just smiled and let it go.
But you know what?
It's really niggling at me.
(04:21):
You know when you have thosethings that just niggle at you
because someone said somethingand you're like, but why are you
saying that?
Why?
What's made you do that?
And then you kind of have to letit go.
How do you make peace with that?
I am one of those people thatactually struggles with it.
I'm now going to head on overand introduce you to my guest in
(04:45):
this week's episode.
So in this episode, I have beenjoined by Dr.
Karen M.
Bryson, or Dr.
B.
as she's known.
She's a university professor, apodcaster, an author.
And in this conversation, wetalk a lot.
Karen is an avid traveler.
Curiosity is her superpower andshe's devoted life to stories.
(05:11):
And as you listen to theconversation and in the
questions that I'm asking andwhat comes up, you'll kind of
hear more about what things havebeen like for Karen and her
curiosity, where it started fromand how she's had this Because,
you know, curiosity has hersuperpower from such a young
age, which is why she is thehost of the Curious Professor
(05:34):
podcast.
And you'll hear as she'sspeaking as to how all of this
came about in her journey.
I would ask you to check out herpodcast.
head on over tothecuriousprofessorpodcast.com.
More details in the show notestoo.
And I'm really, really excitedbecause the question that Karen
(05:58):
asks as well is a mind-blowingquestion.
I mean, it really does totallyget me.
It's like the best question ifyou ask me.
I absolutely love it.
Obviously, you have to wait tillwe get to the end of the episode
to hear what the question is.
I'm going to leave you to listento this episode.
(06:19):
I hope you'll continue to enjoyyour journey to find you and
stay true to you.
SPEAKER_00 (06:25):
To say who am I is such a big question.
I'm not sure.
I feel like I'm still in aprocess of discovering who I am.
It constantly changes as I growas a person.
So who am I is a big questionthat I'm still trying to figure
out.
SPEAKER_01 (06:43):
Yeah.
So if we kind of, let's narrowit down, what things do you
know?
SPEAKER_00 (06:49):
I'll start with some of the things that I'm doing
right now, because I feel likeI've done a lot of things.
But right now I am working as auniversity professor.
That's what I do for my day job.
I am a professor of psychologyand human services.
I am also a podcaster.
I'm the host of the CuriousProfessor podcast.
(07:11):
That's how we met.
You and I met in a podcastingworkshop, which was awesome.
I am also a USA Todaybestselling author.
I'm the author of over 50 booksnow.
So I am writing a lot.
I'm always writing.
That's one of the main thingsthat I do in my free time when
(07:32):
I'm not teaching at theuniversity and now when I'm not
podcasting.
So those are some of the thingsI do.
And what do I know?
That's a more interestingquestion.
Like, who are you?
What you know?
What you know seems to changetoo as you learn more.
(07:52):
Like, sometimes you don'trealize what you don't know.
And that's an even biggerquestion.
Like, what don't you know?
And what do you still need tofind out?
As I approach middle age, I'mlike, kind of in a frenzy almost
to...
learn more and to grow morebecause I feel like okay if I'm
really at the halfway point andI've only got the last half left
(08:16):
hopefully it's another half younever know what your life is
going to be or what the timespan that you've been allotted
but hopefully I have anotherhalf so what am I going to learn
in that last half or that finalchapter in my life what are
those things I'm going toexplore those are big questions.
And they seem to change as Iexplore more.
(08:37):
As you get into things that youfind interesting, you're like,
wow, that's a topic that I couldexplore for a while.
There are some things that youexplore and you're like, okay, I
think I've learned enough aboutthat particular thing.
Let me move on to somethingelse.
And then there are other thingsyou're like, wow, I could
investigate this and learn aboutthis and explore this for a
(08:58):
while.
SPEAKER_01 (08:59):
Gosh, there is so much there in what you just
said, so much.
And I resonate with so much ofthat as well, because it is,
it's like, it's like the sea,it's so vast.
It's like the sky, it's neverending, right?
Yes.
Let me ask you, take us back towhere your curiosity started,
because right now, youmentioned, you know, that you're
(09:19):
a podcaster, and then you'vealso got books, there's like 50
books, and you're a professor.
So there's just in that, there'sso much.
SPEAKER_00 (09:29):
So I'm one of those kids who loved school and I
never wanted to leave, whichexplains how I ended up becoming
a professor, right?
Because professors just stay inschool indefinitely.
Granted, we're on the other sideof the desk, so to speak, but
we're still in school.
We still get to be in thatenvironment pretty much for the
(09:49):
rest of our lives.
So for those of us who are thoseweird kids who, I don't know in
the UK growing up if you hadlike school skip days, but In
the U.S., it's a popular thing,particularly in high school, and
the last year of high school forus is called our senior year of
high school.
And seniors like to have this...
Right.
(10:29):
I did not go on senior skip day.
There was like three of us whowanted to stay in school that
day rather than go to the beachor where the kids went.
But I was like, oh, heck no.
I want to stay in school.
I might miss somethingimportant.
Like I wanted to learn.
I wasn't that interested ingoing to the beach.
(10:51):
Of course, now I like going tothe beach, but there are times
when I'd rather go to a museumor Yeah.
(11:15):
Yeah, I think I went off on atangent there, but...
Oh, I love tangents.
I was one of those kids whoreally, really wanted to learn.
And so I've always been thatway.
I've always been curious andI've always been interested in
what can I learn?
I was also one of those kids whomy mom dropped me off at the
library.
(11:36):
That was my Saturday thing.
For as long as I can remember,junior high and high school, you
know, when it was...
Of course, this is back in the80s, right, when it was still
safe to leave kids, even thoughI wasn't that young of a kid,
maybe 12, 13.
But my parents would have noissue with just dropping me off
(11:56):
and leaving me there for thewhole day and then come pick me
up at 5 p.m.
when the library closed.
But I would literally start atthe very beginning.
I would get there right when thelibrary opened.
I would start at the beginningof the Dewey Decimal System.
with the, you know, 000, 01 orwhatever it was, and just go
through every book in thelibrary, because I had the
(12:16):
entire day.
It was like the most excitingthing.
And I'd go through every bookand every topic.
And so I would see every subjectthat was in the fiction and
nonfiction sections.
I just go through the entirelibrary from the start of the
Dewey Decimal System all the wayto the end, 999.999, whatever it
is.
I don't know.
I'm not a librarian, but fromwhat I can remember, I think
that's how it went.
(12:38):
But I just look at every book.
And then whatever topicsinterested me that day, I'd pull
the book out and either read itthere or skim it or see what I
wanted to learn from that bookor take it with me.
Of but I always hit my limit.
But I would just learn what Iwanted to learn from the books
that were there or what I couldthat day, and then take some
(12:59):
home with me if I wanted to domore of a deep dive into
whatever those subjects werethat interested me that
particular week.
So that was my big Saturdayadventure, going to the library.
And then of course, you know,Here in the US, that was a point
at time where we had malls, likeshopping malls still exist.
The big indoor shopping mall wasa big thing, particularly for
(13:20):
teenagers.
Of course, most of the teenagerswere going to the movie theater
and going on dates.
But I was like, oh my gosh, thebest thing in the mall for me
was at that time Walden Books.
That was the big thing.
Walden Books had just opened inthe big malls.
And I was like, this isfantastic.
I don't have to ever return thisbook.
I can just go and And buy it andit's mine forever.
(13:42):
That was the most exciting thingto me to be able to, you know, I
think my mom took us to the mallstarting when we were like nine
or 10, maybe 11.
And we'd have the whole day andI'd be holed up in that Walden's
books trying to decide with my$10 or whatever it was that she
gave us to spend.
what I was going to buy and takehome, and it would be mine
(14:04):
forever.
It was so exciting to me to bein a Walden's.
Walden's doesn't really exist, Idon't think, anymore, but still,
we have Barnes& Noble.
That's still an exciting venturefor me pre-pandemic.
My husband knows not to goanywhere near.
Here in my area where I live, inthe greater Phoenix area, in
(14:26):
Santan, which is a outdoorshopping area.
There's a two-story Barnes andNoble.
My husband will not go any,he'll never drive anywhere near
there because he knows I'll make
SPEAKER_01 (14:36):
him pull over,
SPEAKER_00 (14:38):
drop me
SPEAKER_01 (14:38):
off there.
Yeah, I was going to
SPEAKER_00 (14:40):
say, do you
SPEAKER_01 (14:40):
actually come out?
Oh, that's incredible.
See, there's so much.
And again, in what you'resaying, in your experience of
growing up and being in thelibrary and just having this
real kind of sense of curiositywhere you could spend the whole
day in the library and then in abookstore, it's incredible.
(15:02):
That feeling, that curiosity,that sense of being immersed in
something, learning andexpanding every time.
And that's still so true to whoyou are, that it's just followed
you through.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (15:16):
and it's amazing to me because I was actually
unknowingly setting myself up todo a dissertation because that's
what it requires, an intensefocus on a very particular area
of study for a long period oftime.
When I was doing my dissertationfor my doctorate, gosh, it was
probably a year and a half everyweekend for...
(15:38):
10 to 15 hours, I would hole upevery single weekend because I
was working full time at thattime.
And every Saturday and everySunday, like eight hours on
Saturday, eight hours on Sunday,I would just be holed up working
on my dissertation.
And that That lasted a year anda half.
My poor husband, I'm so gratefulto him for picking up the slack
(16:01):
of our family during that periodof time to enable me to do that.
Of course, he got even a fewyears later when he did his
dissertation.
But, you know, fair is fair.
So are you both professors?
My husband is not a professorfull time.
He does teach part time on anadjunct basis at a number of
(16:21):
universities.
So he does that part time, buthis career is in IT security.
Very different to psychology.
Yeah, but he actually has hisdoctorate in psychology.
Oh, that's interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (16:36):
What happened?
How did you become interested inpsychology?
What was that point?
What was the driver, thedecider?
SPEAKER_00 (16:44):
That's a great question.
And I think learning about humannature and why people are the
way they are and why peoplechoose to do the things that
they do really always fascinatedme.
And it still does, which is kindof one of the motivating factors
for me and my podcast, TheCurious Professor, because I
(17:05):
interview people about thethings that they do and what
things are important to them andwhy they're doing the things
that they're doing and What'sinteresting about that to them?
So it's always, again, anothertheme that is carried throughout
my life.
And oddly, although I'm aprofessor of psychology and
human services, for the mostpart now, I am teaching classes
(17:28):
in general liberal arts.
So I'm teaching students aboutmore broad topics in the liberal
arts, which I enjoy too, and isvery in line with just me and my
general interest in all of theliberal arts.
I don't like to confine myself,although my area of interest
(17:49):
when I did my dissertation earlyin my career was more in the
psychology and human services,but I've broadened that
perspective a little in myteaching, which I I love, I
enjoy what I'm doing at theuniversity.
SPEAKER_01 (18:04):
That sounds incredible.
When you're talking, when youmean liberal arts, break that
down a little bit more.
What does that mean?
SPEAKER_00 (18:11):
At the university I teach, we conceptualize the
liberal arts in four areas.
So when we're working with ourstudents, we're asking them to
reflect on learning that they'vehad previously and during their
college career, and alsolearning areas that they'd like
to expand on in the future infour, what we call liberal arts
(18:35):
breath areas.
And those are art expression isone area.
So you're talking about all ofthe arts.
So music, dance, fine arts,theater, that type of thing,
even poetry, creative writingwould all be in the arts
expression area.
Then we have sciencedescription, which is all of
your hard sciences areas.
(18:55):
Chemistry, biology, even thingslike anthropology, maybe aspects
of it, and the math andcomputers and data science and
those types of things are all inyour science description
category.
Then we have another area that'scalled social civic.
(19:40):
Thank you so much.
theoretically could be placed inone of those four breadth areas.
SPEAKER_01 (20:02):
Wow.
And that's still incredibly fastin terms of the coverage of the
subjects.
Yes, it is.
That's incredible.
Do you sway towards certaintopics in liberal arts or are
you kind of an all-rounder?
SPEAKER_00 (20:17):
Well, yeah.
When I'm teaching, we have twogeneral liberal arts classes
that we teach.
The very first class that ourstudents take and the very last
class Sort of.
I mean, they do sway from that alittle bit.
But in general, the very firstclass they take, we have a class
where they reflect on theirprevious learning in those
liberal arts breadth areas.
And we're basically teachingthem how to do research, how to
(20:41):
write, how to critically think,those types of things in that
class.
The last class that we have,we're asking them to reflect on
those liberal arts breadth areasfrom a global perspective and to
investigate global issues.
different cultures, that type ofthing.
So the first class, they'reinwardly reflecting on those
liberal arts breadth areas, andthen we're asking them in the
(21:02):
last class to go more outside ofthemselves and reflect on a more
global scale within thecommunity themselves as a person
in, you know, a member of theworld community and think about
the breadth areas from that morebroad perspective.
So...
Yeah, it is quite a large thingthat we're asking them to do.
(21:23):
But in terms of the things thatresonate with me, probably more
as a person, I would say I'mdefinitely more geared toward
art and expression.
Obviously, I'm a writer.
I'm very interested in all ofthe arts.
I have been since I was young.
I was really involved intheater.
when I was a kid.
I love music and I've trieddesperately to sing and dance
(21:47):
and play instruments.
I have very limited talent inthose areas as much as I enjoy
those aspects of the arts, butYeah, I've dabbled in a lot of
the arts.
I'm terrible at most of them,but I think I'm a fairly decent
writer, but I do love all of thearts.
I would say my weakest area isprobably science and
description, although I do lovescience.
(22:09):
I love astronomy.
I love biology.
I mean, I enjoy science a lot.
I'm not really talented in thatarea.
It was a struggle for me.
The sciences were the mostdifficult subjects for me when I
was particularly in high school.
I really didn't do well.
Physics, I still don'tunderstand physics at all.
(22:30):
Chemistry was a struggle for me.
I like learning about science.
Science topics are fascinatingto me, but I couldn't have a
career in any of the sciences.
It would be ridiculous.
That's not my area of expertiseor talent.
Yeah, yeah.
I hear what you're saying.
I totally hear you.
Social civic, obviously, I'm apsychology professor.
So that's an area of strengthfor me.
(22:51):
I've always liked sociology,psychology, history.
I'm a huge history buff.
Love history.
You could drop me off at anymuseum anywhere in the world and
I could stay there for days.
My husband and I and some of ourfriends were in Washington, D.C.
a couple of years ago.
And I don't know how familiaryou are with Washington, but
(23:13):
there are great museums like theSmithsonian, for example, is a
vast, huge museum.
array of many museums that areall put together in Washington.
But there was a museum therecalled the Spy Museum, which I
absolutely adored.
I mean, it was one of the mostfascinating places I've been.
And it was a combination of alot of different things like
(23:34):
history and culture and evenpsychology was represented at
that museum.
When you think about spies,obviously, you know, it's a
wide, vast array of differentareas.
There was even a science museumtechnology, some of the
equipment that spies usedthroughout history.
It was a very interestingmuseum.
It was a multi-floor museum.
(23:55):
If you can imagine me and myhusband and two other people
going to this museum, of course,they just raced ahead of me.
I was maybe in the first roomand they were already on the
third floor of the thing.
I felt bad because I had spentabout two and a half hours there
and they were getting ready toleave like they were in the gift
(24:16):
shop and they're like okay youknow we're getting ready to
leave it and fair enough it wastwo and a half hours that was
quite a long time to be in amuseum but I wasn't even halfway
done and I'm like you know Icould stay here easily another
Well, easily another two and ahalf because I was not even
halfway done, but definitelyanother three.
But I didn't want them sittingthere in the gift shop for three
(24:37):
hours waiting for me.
So one of the disappointments inmy lifetime is only seeing half
of the Spy Museum in Washington.
SPEAKER_01 (24:46):
So that's still on your hit list to get to the Spy
Museum.
Oh, gosh.
You know, I totally, again, yes,museums, art galleries.
And again, that's somethingthat's been with you from a very
young age.
And when you speak about theteaching and learning that
you're doing with the students,I really would like to talk
(25:07):
about the global perspectivethat you kind of bring to the
students and asking them tothink about it.
Because at what point, when didthat global shift happen for you
in your life?
SPEAKER_00 (25:19):
So I am very fortunate that I come from a
family who love to travel,particularly my mom.
My mom was dragging us.
I'm trying to think how old wewere the first time that we went
to Europe.
Gosh, I was maybe 15.
I think I was 15.
I mean, we were travelinginternationally really young,
(25:40):
and we were traveling around theUnited States even younger than
that.
So I come from a family where weprioritize travel.
I really appreciate that becauseit gave me a real different
perspective than a a lot of myclassmates and peers who didn't
have an opportunity to do thatat a I would become an exchange
(26:16):
student, and I became anexchange student to Japan.
I lived for a summer therebetween my junior and senior
year of high school, so thethird and fourth year of high
school.
I lived in Japan as an exchangestudent.
It was a fantastic experience,not just because I was immersed
in another culture and justreally learned about other
(26:39):
people.
So you learn that other peopleare different because of the
culture in which they live andare raised, but also how much
you're alike despite the factthat you come from different
cultures.
So it's interesting that you seethe differences that we can
appreciate the variety ofcultures that we have in the
(27:00):
world, but also that we're allhuman beings and we have those
similar types of experiences asa result of being human.
So I think it's interesting andI like to share that with my
students because the universitythat I work for, we have quite a
number of students who come fromwhat I would call, I hate to use
(27:20):
that word, but quote,disadvantaged backgrounds.
So most of them have not had anexperience to do much traveling
and definitely not travelingoutside of the United States
unless they've been in themilitary.
So a lot of people whoseexperience has been limited to
traveling Many times the town inwhich they grew up, or at the
very least the state in whichthey grew up, the United States
(27:44):
in itself is vast.
So even if you don't have theopportunity to travel around the
United States to broaden yourperspective, you have a very
limited view of the world justbased on the town in which you
grew up or even the state inwhich you grew up.
It really doesn't give you aperspective of other people's
ideas and values and values.
(28:06):
the differences in theirculture.
SPEAKER_01 (28:07):
Yeah, that's the thing, like you say, is because
America is so vast, you can gofrom one state to another and
experience a big difference inkind of the cultural melting pot
and all of the differences.
It's actually quite different tous here in Europe because we're
(28:27):
so used to traveling becauseeverything's close by, smaller.
Although having said that, andwe have this thing where I'm
kind of based in the South, andas soon as you go further up,
the accents change.
So I have a televisionnewsreader accent, some people
would say, others would not,whereas the different accents
(28:49):
and the regionalities is allpart of an experience.
When you kind of use that wordand you don't like using the
word disadvantage, what's yourtake on that?
Because is disadvantage...
just about having a less thanexperience than everyone else?
Or how does that word, I don'tknow, what does it mean to you?
(29:11):
Because you said you don't likeusing it.
SPEAKER_00 (29:13):
Well, in higher education, it's a word that's
used to describe students whomaybe have financial
disadvantages, so may requiresubstantial assistance to be
able to afford to go to school.
So In terms of financial aid,we'll talk about students who
may come from, again, the worddisadvantaged backgrounds.
(29:36):
So we may need to work with themto be able to figure out a plan
to be able to afford schoolbecause they don't come from a
wealthy background where theirparents can put out$30,000 or
$50,000 for tuition for a yearor two years or whatever the
cost is going to be.
So what's the plan to figure outhow you're going to be able to
(29:59):
afford a higher education?
Because in the United States,it's expensive.
Higher education, it can be costprohibitive for people who don't
come from wealthy backgrounds.
So that's one aspect of it.
Another aspect when they talkabout, quote, disadvantaged
students are people who comefrom what they call first
generation backgrounds.
(30:20):
So if you come from a situation,which a lot of our students do,
where no one in your family hasever earned a college degree,
you may not know the ins andouts of what the college
experience is.
If you come from a family whereeveryone in your family went to
Harvard for the past five or sixgenerations, and then you go to
(30:41):
Harvard, well, you're alreadyindoctrinated into that culture.
You know what Harvard is.
All your family went to Harvard.
You've probably visited thecampus many times.
You probably already know a lotof the people who are friends
with your grandfather or yourfather or your mother.
That's a much differentsituation than if your family
(31:02):
are recent immigrants.
You know, you may be the onlyperson in your family who speaks
English and no one in yourfamily may have finished high
school even.
And you're the first person inyour family to finish high
school.
No one in your family can giveyou advice about what it means
to go to college and be acollege student.
So that puts you at a, quote,disadvantage when it comes to
(31:24):
succeeding in higher education.
So that's where that word comesfrom.
SPEAKER_01 (31:29):
I totally hear what you're saying.
And it almost feels like, asyou're saying that, it becomes
even more of a responsibility tonot only to help, but to have a
wider kind of civicresponsibility, but really to
educate and use education as areal vehicle for expansion.
SPEAKER_00 (31:51):
Exactly.
So in the global issues class,for example, I have...
Yeah.
(32:18):
Here's also some articles that Ifound that talk about some of
the interesting aspects of theIcelandic culture.
Here's a really cool articlethat I found that you might want
to read about someanthropologists that found about
female Vikings that they didn'trealize existed.
So I can personalize myexperience that I had in that
(32:39):
culture and also bring in somescholarly resources of things
that they can read or currentevents that are happening.
Oh, did you know?
you know, one of the volcanoesjust erupted in Iceland within
the last six months, right?
So here, let's talk about that.
You know, I actually stood rightthere where that has, it wasn't
(32:59):
active then, but now it's likeflowing with lava.
And I was actually standingthere a few years ago.
Now it's filled with lava.
So, you know, I can personalizeit and bring in my experience
and also, you give them thescholarly aspect and the current
events of that community, thatculture, that country.
SPEAKER_01 (33:17):
Yeah.
And that's incredible becauseyou're able to really, really, I
kind of see it almost as aholistic way of being able to
teach and connect people towhat's possible beyond where
they are.
SPEAKER_00 (33:31):
Yeah, exactly.
And one of the words that arephrases that students use a lot
when they talk about my classeseye-opening.
SPEAKER_01 (33:39):
Oh, wow.
Incredible.
SPEAKER_00 (33:41):
Yeah, this class was really eye-opening.
I love that because that's whatI'm trying to do.
That's one of my goals.
I want to open them to broadentheir perspective and to also
motivate them to want to becurious and to explore.
And that's what actually gave methe idea for my podcast was
because after that global issuesclass, a lot of my students
(34:02):
Because every week I bring incurrent events, I bring in
articles about differentcountries and different cultures
and different ideas and justthings I want them to think
about and experience and want tolearn more about.
And after the term, or as we'regetting close to the end of the
term, students will say, what amI going to do after I don't have
this class anymore and you'renot finding me articles or
(34:24):
things to learn about anymore?
And I was like, maybe I shouldjust continue what I'm doing
with my curious professor andstart a podcast.
So that's what I've been doingwith my podcast and with the
things that I post on socialmedia, in my Facebook group and
on Instagram, just giving peoplethose types of things to be
(34:44):
curious about.
Did you know, and I'll talkabout something that they can
explore further that they mightnot know about.
I'm going to do one this week,interesting things about bats
because a lot of people don'tknow about bats and there's a
lot of really cool things aboutbats.
So just stuff like that, thatpeople might want a little
bite-sized piece of informationand that might satisfy their
(35:07):
curiosity or they might think,gosh, I didn't know that.
I want to learn more about bats.
And then they'll do their ownresearch or maybe even want to
visit those great caves here inthe US where you can actually go
caving and visit bats and seethem in their natural habitat.
SPEAKER_01 (35:24):
That's so cool.
That's incredible.
I'm going to ask you, I'm goingto flip it on its head because I
can hear that you're really ableto share so much of your
experience with the students andin terms of what they're
getting.
But when we talk about learningpersonal kind of journeys and
learning your own expansionjourney, I guess.
(35:45):
What have you learned fromteaching the students?
SPEAKER_00 (35:50):
Oh, wow.
That's a great question.
I feel like I learn so much allthe time because my students
have such different experiencesthan the experiences I've had.
Like I say, I live in Arizona,so I have a lot of students who
are either from Mexico or haveparents from Mexico or
(36:10):
generationally from Mexicandescent.
I learn a lot about Mexicanculture, what it's like to be an
immigrant from Mexico, all kindsof aspects about that, that
obviously I'm not.
I'm a white woman from NewJersey.
So learning about my studentsand their experiences, and
(36:33):
they're so different from thethings that I've experienced in
my life.
That's just one example of Ihave students, most of my
students, I don't have children.
I've not had the experience ofbeing a parent.
Most of my students have kidsand have a number of kids, which
is great because we do need torepopulate the earth and I'm not
(36:54):
doing my share of repopulation.
So, you know, it's great thatthey're having kids and
fulfilling that responsibility,but it becomes more challenging
for them as students.
So really for me, learning, notjust about what that experience
is, but also learning empathyand grace.
Because for me, I can do what Iwant pretty much when I want.
(37:16):
My husband's self-sufficient forthe most part.
He doesn't require a lot ofcare.
I do have a dog.
I have a bloodhound, but she'sgood and she doesn't require a
lot of...
She's old now.
It's not like she's a puppy.
So it's not like I have a lot ofresponsibility outside of
myself.
So for me to think about I havea student here who I admire so
(37:37):
much because not only is sheworking full-time in a
challenging profession, like,for example, we have a lot of
students who are nurses.
So here's a student who'sworking full-time as a nurse in
an extremely challengingprofession, particularly in the
days of COVID, obviously.
Not only that, but she has ayoung family.
(37:58):
She's raising three kids now.
Maybe even on her own and tryingto balance a demanding
profession and raising childrenand going to school full time.
I can't even imagine what that'slike.
So it forces me to think aboutwhat are those things that she's
going through or he's goingthrough?
You know, we have men and womenwho are in all kinds of
(38:20):
situations.
So.
you know, what are they goingthrough?
What is their experience?
And how can I be supportive andalso have empathy for that
experience or sometimessympathy?
Obviously, I can't put myself intheir shoes of raising kids, but
I certainly knew what it waslike to go to school because I
was doing my doctorate when Iwas working full time.
So I empathize with that, butdefinitely have sympathy for,
(38:43):
you know, somebody saying, allthree of my kids have COVID and
I'm dealing with COVID becauseI'm a nurse and I'm trying to
balance taking care of my familyand dealing with my patients.
And, you know, I might not getmy paper in until tomorrow.
Is that okay?
Well, yeah, I think, I thinkit's okay if your entire
household is sick, you know, andI, you know, I have students who
(39:06):
are dealing with a lot of issueslately.
I don't know how it is in, inthe UK where you are, but, Here
in the U.S., we just have aterrible, terrible opiate
crisis.
So I have a lot of students, notstudents who are dealing with it
themselves, I don't think, nonethat have said that to me
anyway, but certainly they havefamily members, siblings, and in
(39:29):
some cases, because we haveolder adult, mature adult
students who are in our classeswho have kids that are dealing,
because their kids are teenagersor young adults, and they're
dealing with the opiate crisis.
It's really, really challenging.
I had a student who said she wasthe only, she had come from a
small town and she said she wasone of the only people in the
(39:50):
entire town who wasn't addictedto opioids.
And I was like, oh my gosh, wow.
Not only how does that feel, butwhat is that like to have a
whole town in the US that'saddicted to opioids?
I mean, it's terrible and it'sheartbreaking that we have so
many people dealing with thatissue.
SPEAKER_01 (40:11):
You're learning from these incredible people.
They're incredibly powerful,humbling human lessons to be
able to learn.
Compassion, grace, empathy, andsympathy.
It's not even like they'relessons.
They're just incredibly powerfulhuman kind of connectors.
(40:34):
You were talking aboutessentially we're all the same.
And when it comes down to usbeing all the same, Being able
to be compassionate and showothers grace and be sympathetic
and empathetic to theirexperience is one of the most
powerful things that you canactually do.
But for some people, it's notpossible.
(40:57):
And for others like yourself,you're in this situation where
you're able to do that, really.
SPEAKER_00 (41:04):
Yeah, and it is a learning curve for a lot of
professors.
One of the things that I do isthat I train and mentor new,
younger, or less experiencedprofessors who are coming in
starting at our university.
It's difficult because they'retrying to balance what they
(41:25):
should be, quote, should bedoing.
So if you're coming in andyou're a new professor, you want
to shine and be a star and doeverything that you're supposed
to be doing.
So to balance that with thequote rules, things are due at a
certain day and we have acertain policy for late
assignments.
And so to balance doing allthose things that you're
(41:46):
supposed to be doing,particularly when you're new and
you want to be doing the bestthat you can to show that you're
a good instructor with beingable to give students a little
bit of leeway because they'rehaving issues and maybe even be
in crisis.
I have had more than a fewstudents tell me they were
(42:06):
considering killing themselves.
And to be in that position, I'mnot going to tell a student who
confides in me with that, oh,and by the way, I'm giving you
an F because you turned yourpaper in late.
I mean, that's just ridiculous,right?
So, you know, you have tobalance those two things with
you being caring and passionateand also being There are
deadlines and things that theyhave to meet as a student, but
(42:29):
there's a way in which you canbe compassionate and still
maintain that level of...
That professionalism.
Yeah, the professionalism.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (42:39):
It's so hard because I can see on both sides, like
you said, even as an experiencedprofessor, as a new teacher,
stepping into this, balancingall of that and being...
Right, right.
SPEAKER_00 (43:13):
Yeah, and putting yourself in other people's shoes
is easier for some people thanit is for others.
Some people don't have thatability or that ability is
limited.
At least that's been myexperience in talking with other
people and working with otherpeople.
Some people have a limitedcapacity to communicate.
Oh, that is incredibly powerful.
(43:51):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (44:00):
Really, really amazing.
I have a couple more questionsif you don't mind me asking.
Oh, sure.
Cool.
I'm really interested.
Tell us, because you've writtenover, what, 50 books.
You're a best-selling author.
Give us a little bit of aroundup on what the writing has
been about.
SPEAKER_00 (44:19):
Oh, my gosh.
How much more time do you have?
No, just
SPEAKER_01 (44:23):
kidding.
I have time.
SPEAKER_00 (44:25):
So that's been a journey unto itself, right?
Yes.
Yes.
(44:48):
by the time I was five, I knew Iwanted to write and I made my
mom help me write my first bookwhen I was five.
So it was quite obvious to me,but it was round.
I took a really roundabout routebecause when I was in high
school, really junior high andhigh school.
I didn't write as much becausethat's a time when you want to
be more social, obviously.
(45:09):
You have raging hormones andevery other thing.
Your peers are important whenyou're in junior high and high
school.
So I was more involved intheater then and acting and
being in plays and all thatstuff.
So I wasn't writing as much whenI was an adolescent.
But then toward my...
younger adult age, I guess youcould say.
(45:31):
And I was really doing someacting in community theater and
even dabbled in some movies andTV and stuff as an actor.
It got to a point where I had toreally get serious about a
career because you can't rely onyour parents forever.
You have to start supportingyourself when you're in your
20s.
So I had to get an apartment anddo all those things that you
(45:52):
have to do when You start onyour own out of the nest.
So I couldn't really be involvedin theater as much as I wanted
to anymore because I had acareer.
So I decided that I was tryingto write for theater.
So I started out writing playsand I did pretty well.
Like I had a number ofproductions for my stage plays,
(46:13):
but it's not very financiallyrewarding.
As rewarding as it is to seepeople produce your plays, I
mean, it's phenomenal.
It's a great feeling.
And the thing about theater isthat you write something and you
have a vision for it in yourmind.
But then when it's performed,it's completely different
(46:34):
because other people are takingit.
A director takes it andinterprets it.
It's like when you're playingthat.
I don't know if you played it inthe UK, but here in the US we
had this thing called phone.
I don't know.
I think it was called phone callor something.
It's a row of kids and you startat one end and you whisper
something and each personwhispered like you start with
(46:56):
one sentence and each personwhispers a sentence.
And by the time it gets to theend of this like 30 kid line,
the sentence has completelychanged.
It's a totally differentsentence.
SPEAKER_01 (47:06):
Yes.
In the UK, we've called thatChinese whispers for some
reason.
SPEAKER_00 (47:11):
Yeah.
I have no idea.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (47:12):
There we go.
SPEAKER_00 (47:13):
Same game.
So theater is kind of like that.
So you have a vision ofsomething when you write a play,
but then a director takes it andinterprets it his or her own way
or their own way.
And then it's, Actors will takethe script and do the same
thing.
So from what you wrote throughthe director and through the
(47:33):
actors, what it comes out on theother end, when you're sitting
in an audience, you're like,whoa, did I write that?
This is really good, but itreally has nothing to do with
you.
It was probably decent when,well, I can speak for myself.
When I wrote it, it was decent.
But by the time the director puttheir magic dust on it and then
the actors did their thing, it'slike, wow.
(47:55):
wow, these talented people mademe look really good.
Like my name's on that, but itwas really a combination of
everybody's magic creating thisthing that was much bigger than
any one person, right?
The sum of the parts is biggerthan the parts type of a thing.
So that's the magic of theater.
(48:15):
And it was amazing, but I didn'tmake any money writing plays.
So, well, I made a little bit ofmoney.
I shouldn't say I didn't makeany.
I made a little bit, but I mean,enough to go out to dinner to a
nice restaurant.
So I said, what can I do thatI'm going to make more money?
So I decided I was going tostart writing screenplays, which
(48:36):
is great.
And I've had screenplaysoptioned and I even sold a
screenplay.
Nothing's been made yet.
So I made a little bit of money,but I don't have anything
produced yet.
But it it was not as rewardingbecause unless you have it
produced, there's nothing there,but a script, right?
No one's ever going to see itbecause the screenplay is
(48:58):
nothing until it becomes amovie.
So that wasn't very satisfyingto me as a writer.
So I said, what can I do?
That'll be more satisfying.
And of course, you know, I'vebeen an avid reader since I was
four.
So I'm like, why am I notwriting books?
This is ridiculous.
So yeah, What year was it Istarted writing books?
2000, I think.
(49:19):
I started a little bit dabbling.
I had to take classes because Ididn't really know what I was
doing.
So I studied a lot.
I did a lot, a lot, a lot ofstudying and working with
mentors and taking writingclasses and reading, reading
even more.
And that was really bad.
Of course, when you startanything new, you think, I think
(49:40):
most people think, because theycan read that they're going to
be good writers and it doesn'treally work that way.
But that old saying of, youknow, you have to do 10,000
hours of something before you'regood at it.
SPEAKER_01 (49:51):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (49:52):
definitely is for writing.
At least it was for me.
I know there's naturallytalented people who just bang
out their first novel andthey're like, you know,
bajillion bestseller.
SPEAKER_01 (50:01):
I am a little bit jealous of them.
That's not
SPEAKER_00 (50:04):
me.
I've written, I lost track now,but at some point I knew I had
written over 3.5 million words.
It's probably around 4 millionnow.
But I've written a lot, areally, really, really lot.
And I have lots of stuff that Ithrow on that number 50 because
that's how many have beenpublished.
(50:24):
But I mean, I have tons of themin my files that are just
sitting there.
Basically because it's a processto format a book and get a cover
and do all the things you haveto do to actually get it
published.
So I like to write more than Ilike publishing.
So I have a lot of stuff that'sjust sitting there.
(50:45):
Maybe one day it'll getpublished, but I don't have time
right now.
So yeah, I've written a lot morebooks than have actually been
published.
And some of them are bad andwill never get published, but
that's okay.
That's part of the learningprocess and also just part of
the writing process becausethere's always stuff that you
think is going to be great andthen you write it and you're
like, what is this?
This isn't what I thought it wasgoing to be at all.
(51:06):
And you think, well, this isn'tworth putting out because I
don't like it.
So if I don't like it and I'mnot passionate about it, why
would I expect anyone else tolike it?
And then there's other stuffthat I think, I'm not even sure
I should write this.
This is pretty...
crazy.
And then I'll write it and I'llput it out there and people love
it.
And they're like, this isamazing.
(51:27):
And I'm like, I wasn't evengoing to publish it.
I thought it was weird, butpeople like it.
So you never know.
You never know what's going toresonate with other people.
I'm always wrong about my work.
The stuff that I think, oh, thisis going to be a hit.
I love this so much.
And it fails to find a market.
And then stuff I am not sureabout at all.
And people love it.
So I don't know if there's awriter out there who knows for
(51:50):
sure when something's going tobe hit.
I'm jealous because I sure don'tknow.
I wish I did.
It would be amazing.
But on this journey, so Istarted out writing kids books.
And I've written nonfiction.
I've written biographies.
I've written a lot of romancenovels.
(52:11):
So there was a point in timewhere I wanted to make money
from my writing.
And I was able to do that,writing romance novels.
There are certain genres thatcan be lucrative.
And romance is a genre that canbe quite lucrative.
So I did do that for threeyears.
I wrote a novel a month forthree years.
So it ended up being, well...
(52:32):
Wow.
(52:55):
And I'm dabbling in otherthings.
My next adventure is going to beCozy Mystery.
I really love mysteries.
I've always loved mysteries.
Huge fan of that type of, youknow, like Murder, She Wrote,
you know.
Oh, yes, absolutely.
I love that type of small towncozy mystery.
So that's going to be my nextadventure.
(53:17):
I'm going to be doing a seriesof cozy mysteries.
SPEAKER_01 (53:20):
Yeah, absolutely.
incredibly busy.
Yes.
But as I mentioned earlier, I
SPEAKER_00 (53:26):
don't have kids, which helps.
Oh, but
SPEAKER_01 (53:30):
yes.
Okay.
In the conventional sense, no.
But I mean, I feel like the waythat you're connecting with your
students, there's a level ofkind of nurturing happening
there anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (53:41):
Yes, I would agree.
SPEAKER_01 (53:43):
So that's still there.
And so you're still taking onand you know concern for their
welfare beyond what you're doingin the context of education so
that aspect is always there wowsorry it's very busy here today
honestly so I guess well as Isaid towards the end of an
(54:04):
episode I always love to askguests to leave a question for
the listeners so What would beyour biggest question that
potentially you've askedyourself or one that still kind
of keeps you going every day?
Because I know at the beginningof this conversation, you did
kind of mention what thosequestions potentially could be
(54:27):
that keep you searching.
But do you have a question forthe listeners?
SPEAKER_00 (54:32):
Oh, yeah.
So this is a question I used toask.
So The university where I work,we've transitioned more to
online learning because that'swhere the market is.
A lot of people want to learnonline now, and especially now
post-COVID, I think the majorityof learning will be online more
than in person.
But when I was doing 100...
(54:53):
I'm really old and, you know, Iwas at a point for a long time.
I don't believe
SPEAKER_01 (54:58):
that for one second.
Karen, take that back.
There's no such thing as old.
SPEAKER_00 (55:03):
When I first started teaching, there wasn't online
classes, really.
So that really didn't exist inthe market.
So I was 100% teaching inperson.
And I used to always have a partof the class where we talk about
the values and meaning and Iwould pose the question what do
you think is the meaning of lifeand we had excellent discussion
(55:24):
about that so I would ask thatto your audience what do you
think is the meaning of life I
SPEAKER_01 (55:30):
hope you enjoyed that thank you for joining me
for this episode of EternalParadigm join me next time
Welcome to Eternal Paradigm.
Together, we're uncovering humanexperience by exploring
physical, mental, emotional, andspiritual stories.
With me, your host, Ermi Ravel.
Hello, welcome to this episodeof Eternal Paradigm.
I hope you're enjoying yourjourney to find you.
(00:23):
I have no idea right now if youcan hear all of the background
noise that's going on around me.
If you can't, then that's okay.
I can give you a little snapshotof what it is.
So we're heading into the summerholidays and I am pretty sure
that recording has just comethrough.
(00:43):
The kids are all out playingfootball, which is great, which
also means they're all occupied.
They're all doing somethingactive.
They're all having a lot of fun,but they're also very noisy.
I've been recording most of mypodcast conversations in the
evening or in daytimes when thekids are at school.
(01:04):
Things are now changing, so youmay hear them in the background.
I'll give you a little heads upon what today's episode is
about.
But before I do that, just aquick reminder.
Head over to Eternal ParadigmPodcast on Instagram.
I have an amazing communitythere.
There's the Facebook page andthere's the Facebook group.
(01:28):
And again, I am going to put myhands up.
I haven't been totally active inthe Facebook group, but that's
okay because if you join thecommunity, it's an open group.
Feel free to share.
We're going to move on.
So there are a few things in thepipeline for the podcast.
We are nearing the end of thisseries.
(01:49):
I have flipped things around alittle bit.
So we are still on series one.
And while series one has beenairing, we also had series two,
which was the transformationseries in January.
And then we had series three,which was the creativity series,
which was absolutely incredible.
(02:10):
We're going to be heading intorounding off this series.
And I'm really, really excitedbecause it is now heading into
August.
when this episode will go live.
And very soon, not very long togo now, it will be a year since
Eternal Paradigm was launched.
(02:32):
And it's only when I was talkingto my guest in this episode that
she pointed this out to me.
And it was quite a surprise,actually.
It was like this realizationthat I hadn't even thought about
that a year will almost go by.
But it's all here now.
to carry on.
Lots of exciting new thingshappening.
(02:54):
So as I mentioned in a previousepisode, I have got an event
that I am going to be runningand more details about this are
to be shared very soon.
It's the Inner ChildExploration.
That's the first thing.
The second thing is the EternalParadigm Podcast rebrand that is
definitely in the pipeline.
(03:16):
The website you will see hasshifted over.
However, I am still in theprocess of putting together all
of the guest profiles.
That is something I'm reallylooking forward to.
What else has been happening,guys?
What else has been happening?
Tell me.
talk to me.
I always love hearing from you.
(03:37):
It was actually quiteinteresting because I had a
conversation with someone andthey were just telling me that
they're not too sure that humanexperience is all that it's cut
out to be.
I thought that was quite aninteresting thing to say because
obviously interesting is myfavorite word, firstly.
And secondly, because I I justbecame really curious about what
(04:01):
their experience was about.
But I couldn't really ask thatquestion in too much detail.
I don't think they would havebeen very welcoming to me
probing.
So I didn't.
I just smiled and let it go.
But you know what?
It's really niggling at me.
(04:21):
You know when you have thosethings that just niggle at you
because someone said somethingand you're like, but why are you
saying that?
Why?
What's made you do that?
And then you kind of have to letit go.
How do you make peace with that?
I am one of those people thatactually struggles with it.
I'm now going to head on overand introduce you to my guest in
(04:45):
this week's episode.
So in this episode, I have beenjoined by Dr.
Karen M.
Bryson, or Dr.
B.
as she's known.
She's a university professor, apodcaster, an author.
And in this conversation, wetalk a lot.
Karen is an avid traveler.
Curiosity is her superpower andshe's devoted life to stories.
(05:11):
And as you listen to theconversation and in the
questions that I'm asking andwhat comes up, you'll kind of
hear more about what things havebeen like for Karen and her
curiosity, where it started fromand how she's had this Because,
you know, curiosity has hersuperpower from such a young
age, which is why she is thehost of the Curious Professor
(05:34):
podcast.
And you'll hear as she'sspeaking as to how all of this
came about in her journey.
I would ask you to check out herpodcast.
head on over tothecuriousprofessorpodcast.com.
More details in the show notestoo.
And I'm really, really excitedbecause the question that Karen
(05:58):
asks as well is a mind-blowingquestion.
I mean, it really does totallyget me.
It's like the best question ifyou ask me.
I absolutely love it.
Obviously, you have to wait tillwe get to the end of the episode
to hear what the question is.
I'm going to leave you to listento this episode.
(06:19):
I hope you'll continue to enjoyyour journey to find you and
stay true to you.
SPEAKER_00 (06:25):
To say who am I is such a big question.
I'm not sure.
I feel like I'm still in aprocess of discovering who I am.
It constantly changes as I growas a person.
So who am I is a big questionthat I'm still trying to figure
out.
SPEAKER_01 (06:43):
Yeah.
So if we kind of, let's narrowit down, what things do you
know?
SPEAKER_00 (06:49):
I'll start with some of the things that I'm doing
right now, because I feel likeI've done a lot of things.
But right now I am working as auniversity professor.
That's what I do for my day job.
I am a professor of psychologyand human services.
I am also a podcaster.
I'm the host of the CuriousProfessor podcast.
(07:11):
That's how we met.
You and I met in a podcastingworkshop, which was awesome.
I am also a USA Todaybestselling author.
I'm the author of over 50 booksnow.
So I am writing a lot.
I'm always writing.
That's one of the main thingsthat I do in my free time when
(07:32):
I'm not teaching at theuniversity and now when I'm not
podcasting.
So those are some of the thingsI do.
And what do I know?
That's a more interestingquestion.
Like, who are you?
What you know?
What you know seems to changetoo as you learn more.
(07:52):
Like, sometimes you don'trealize what you don't know.
And that's an even biggerquestion.
Like, what don't you know?
And what do you still need tofind out?
As I approach middle age, I'mlike, kind of in a frenzy almost
to...
learn more and to grow morebecause I feel like okay if I'm
really at the halfway point andI've only got the last half left
(08:16):
hopefully it's another half younever know what your life is
going to be or what the timespan that you've been allotted
but hopefully I have anotherhalf so what am I going to learn
in that last half or that finalchapter in my life what are
those things I'm going toexplore those are big questions.
And they seem to change as Iexplore more.
(08:37):
As you get into things that youfind interesting, you're like,
wow, that's a topic that I couldexplore for a while.
There are some things that youexplore and you're like, okay, I
think I've learned enough aboutthat particular thing.
Let me move on to somethingelse.
And then there are other thingsyou're like, wow, I could
investigate this and learn aboutthis and explore this for a
(08:58):
while.
SPEAKER_01 (08:59):
Gosh, there is so much there in what you just
said, so much.
And I resonate with so much ofthat as well, because it is,
it's like, it's like the sea,it's so vast.
It's like the sky, it's neverending, right?
Yes.
Let me ask you, take us back towhere your curiosity started,
because right now, youmentioned, you know, that you're
(09:19):
a podcaster, and then you'vealso got books, there's like 50
books, and you're a professor.
So there's just in that, there'sso much.
SPEAKER_00 (09:29):
So I'm one of those kids who loved school and I
never wanted to leave, whichexplains how I ended up becoming
a professor, right?
Because professors just stay inschool indefinitely.
Granted, we're on the other sideof the desk, so to speak, but
we're still in school.
We still get to be in thatenvironment pretty much for the
(09:49):
rest of our lives.
So for those of us who are thoseweird kids who, I don't know in
the UK growing up if you hadlike school skip days, but In
the U.S., it's a popular thing,particularly in high school, and
the last year of high school forus is called our senior year of
high school.
And seniors like to have this...
Right.
(10:29):
I did not go on senior skip day.
There was like three of us whowanted to stay in school that
day rather than go to the beachor where the kids went.
But I was like, oh, heck no.
I want to stay in school.
I might miss somethingimportant.
Like I wanted to learn.
I wasn't that interested ingoing to the beach.
(10:51):
Of course, now I like going tothe beach, but there are times
when I'd rather go to a museumor Yeah.
(11:15):
Yeah, I think I went off on atangent there, but...
Oh, I love tangents.
I was one of those kids whoreally, really wanted to learn.
And so I've always been thatway.
I've always been curious andI've always been interested in
what can I learn?
I was also one of those kids whomy mom dropped me off at the
library.
(11:36):
That was my Saturday thing.
For as long as I can remember,junior high and high school, you
know, when it was...
Of course, this is back in the80s, right, when it was still
safe to leave kids, even thoughI wasn't that young of a kid,
maybe 12, 13.
But my parents would have noissue with just dropping me off
(11:56):
and leaving me there for thewhole day and then come pick me
up at 5 p.m.
when the library closed.
But I would literally start atthe very beginning.
I would get there right when thelibrary opened.
I would start at the beginningof the Dewey Decimal System.
with the, you know, 000, 01 orwhatever it was, and just go
through every book in thelibrary, because I had the
(12:16):
entire day.
It was like the most excitingthing.
And I'd go through every bookand every topic.
And so I would see every subjectthat was in the fiction and
nonfiction sections.
I just go through the entirelibrary from the start of the
Dewey Decimal System all the wayto the end, 999.999, whatever it
is.
I don't know.
I'm not a librarian, but fromwhat I can remember, I think
that's how it went.
(12:38):
But I just look at every book.
And then whatever topicsinterested me that day, I'd pull
the book out and either read itthere or skim it or see what I
wanted to learn from that bookor take it with me.
Of but I always hit my limit.
But I would just learn what Iwanted to learn from the books
that were there or what I couldthat day, and then take some
(12:59):
home with me if I wanted to domore of a deep dive into
whatever those subjects werethat interested me that
particular week.
So that was my big Saturdayadventure, going to the library.
And then of course, you know,Here in the US, that was a point
at time where we had malls, likeshopping malls still exist.
The big indoor shopping mall wasa big thing, particularly for
(13:20):
teenagers.
Of course, most of the teenagerswere going to the movie theater
and going on dates.
But I was like, oh my gosh, thebest thing in the mall for me
was at that time Walden Books.
That was the big thing.
Walden Books had just opened inthe big malls.
And I was like, this isfantastic.
I don't have to ever return thisbook.
I can just go and And buy it andit's mine forever.
(13:42):
That was the most exciting thingto me to be able to, you know, I
think my mom took us to the mallstarting when we were like nine
or 10, maybe 11.
And we'd have the whole day andI'd be holed up in that Walden's
books trying to decide with my$10 or whatever it was that she
gave us to spend.
what I was going to buy and takehome, and it would be mine
(14:04):
forever.
It was so exciting to me to bein a Walden's.
Walden's doesn't really exist, Idon't think, anymore, but still,
we have Barnes& Noble.
That's still an exciting venturefor me pre-pandemic.
My husband knows not to goanywhere near.
Here in my area where I live, inthe greater Phoenix area, in
(14:26):
Santan, which is a outdoorshopping area.
There's a two-story Barnes andNoble.
My husband will not go any,he'll never drive anywhere near
there because he knows I'll make
SPEAKER_01 (14:36):
him pull over,
SPEAKER_00 (14:38):
drop me
SPEAKER_01 (14:38):
off there.
Yeah, I was going to
SPEAKER_00 (14:40):
say, do you
SPEAKER_01 (14:40):
actually come out?
Oh, that's incredible.
See, there's so much.
And again, in what you'resaying, in your experience of
growing up and being in thelibrary and just having this
real kind of sense of curiositywhere you could spend the whole
day in the library and then in abookstore, it's incredible.
(15:02):
That feeling, that curiosity,that sense of being immersed in
something, learning andexpanding every time.
And that's still so true to whoyou are, that it's just followed
you through.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (15:16):
and it's amazing to me because I was actually
unknowingly setting myself up todo a dissertation because that's
what it requires, an intensefocus on a very particular area
of study for a long period oftime.
When I was doing my dissertationfor my doctorate, gosh, it was
probably a year and a half everyweekend for...
(15:38):
10 to 15 hours, I would hole upevery single weekend because I
was working full time at thattime.
And every Saturday and everySunday, like eight hours on
Saturday, eight hours on Sunday,I would just be holed up working
on my dissertation.
And that That lasted a year anda half.
My poor husband, I'm so gratefulto him for picking up the slack
(16:01):
of our family during that periodof time to enable me to do that.
Of course, he got even a fewyears later when he did his
dissertation.
But, you know, fair is fair.
So are you both professors?
My husband is not a professorfull time.
He does teach part time on anadjunct basis at a number of
(16:21):
universities.
So he does that part time, buthis career is in IT security.
Very different to psychology.
Yeah, but he actually has hisdoctorate in psychology.
Oh, that's interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (16:36):
What happened?
How did you become interested inpsychology?
What was that point?
What was the driver, thedecider?
SPEAKER_00 (16:44):
That's a great question.
And I think learning about humannature and why people are the
way they are and why peoplechoose to do the things that
they do really always fascinatedme.
And it still does, which is kindof one of the motivating factors
for me and my podcast, TheCurious Professor, because I
(17:05):
interview people about thethings that they do and what
things are important to them andwhy they're doing the things
that they're doing and What'sinteresting about that to them?
So it's always, again, anothertheme that is carried throughout
my life.
And oddly, although I'm aprofessor of psychology and
human services, for the mostpart now, I am teaching classes
(17:28):
in general liberal arts.
So I'm teaching students aboutmore broad topics in the liberal
arts, which I enjoy too, and isvery in line with just me and my
general interest in all of theliberal arts.
I don't like to confine myself,although my area of interest
(17:49):
when I did my dissertation earlyin my career was more in the
psychology and human services,but I've broadened that
perspective a little in myteaching, which I I love, I
enjoy what I'm doing at theuniversity.
SPEAKER_01 (18:04):
That sounds incredible.
When you're talking, when youmean liberal arts, break that
down a little bit more.
What does that mean?
SPEAKER_00 (18:11):
At the university I teach, we conceptualize the
liberal arts in four areas.
So when we're working with ourstudents, we're asking them to
reflect on learning that they'vehad previously and during their
college career, and alsolearning areas that they'd like
to expand on in the future infour, what we call liberal arts
(18:35):
breath areas.
And those are art expression isone area.
So you're talking about all ofthe arts.
So music, dance, fine arts,theater, that type of thing,
even poetry, creative writingwould all be in the arts
expression area.
Then we have sciencedescription, which is all of
your hard sciences areas.
(18:55):
Chemistry, biology, even thingslike anthropology, maybe aspects
of it, and the math andcomputers and data science and
those types of things are all inyour science description
category.
Then we have another area that'scalled social civic.
(19:40):
Thank you so much.
theoretically could be placed inone of those four breadth areas.
SPEAKER_01 (20:02):
Wow.
And that's still incredibly fastin terms of the coverage of the
subjects.
Yes, it is.
That's incredible.
Do you sway towards certaintopics in liberal arts or are
you kind of an all-rounder?
SPEAKER_00 (20:17):
Well, yeah.
When I'm teaching, we have twogeneral liberal arts classes
that we teach.
The very first class that ourstudents take and the very last
class Sort of.
I mean, they do sway from that alittle bit.
But in general, the very firstclass they take, we have a class
where they reflect on theirprevious learning in those
liberal arts breadth areas.
And we're basically teachingthem how to do research, how to
(20:41):
write, how to critically think,those types of things in that
class.
The last class that we have,we're asking them to reflect on
those liberal arts breadth areasfrom a global perspective and to
investigate global issues.
different cultures, that type ofthing.
So the first class, they'reinwardly reflecting on those
liberal arts breadth areas, andthen we're asking them in the
(21:02):
last class to go more outside ofthemselves and reflect on a more
global scale within thecommunity themselves as a person
in, you know, a member of theworld community and think about
the breadth areas from that morebroad perspective.
So...
Yeah, it is quite a large thingthat we're asking them to do.
(21:23):
But in terms of the things thatresonate with me, probably more
as a person, I would say I'mdefinitely more geared toward
art and expression.
Obviously, I'm a writer.
I'm very interested in all ofthe arts.
I have been since I was young.
I was really involved intheater.
when I was a kid.
I love music and I've trieddesperately to sing and dance
(21:47):
and play instruments.
I have very limited talent inthose areas as much as I enjoy
those aspects of the arts, butYeah, I've dabbled in a lot of
the arts.
I'm terrible at most of them,but I think I'm a fairly decent
writer, but I do love all of thearts.
I would say my weakest area isprobably science and
description, although I do lovescience.
(22:09):
I love astronomy.
I love biology.
I mean, I enjoy science a lot.
I'm not really talented in thatarea.
It was a struggle for me.
The sciences were the mostdifficult subjects for me when I
was particularly in high school.
I really didn't do well.
Physics, I still don'tunderstand physics at all.
(22:30):
Chemistry was a struggle for me.
I like learning about science.
Science topics are fascinatingto me, but I couldn't have a
career in any of the sciences.
It would be ridiculous.
That's not my area of expertiseor talent.
Yeah, yeah.
I hear what you're saying.
I totally hear you.
Social civic, obviously, I'm apsychology professor.
So that's an area of strengthfor me.
(22:51):
I've always liked sociology,psychology, history.
I'm a huge history buff.
Love history.
You could drop me off at anymuseum anywhere in the world and
I could stay there for days.
My husband and I and some of ourfriends were in Washington, D.C.
a couple of years ago.
And I don't know how familiaryou are with Washington, but
(23:13):
there are great museums like theSmithsonian, for example, is a
vast, huge museum.
array of many museums that areall put together in Washington.
But there was a museum therecalled the Spy Museum, which I
absolutely adored.
I mean, it was one of the mostfascinating places I've been.
And it was a combination of alot of different things like
(23:34):
history and culture and evenpsychology was represented at
that museum.
When you think about spies,obviously, you know, it's a
wide, vast array of differentareas.
There was even a science museumtechnology, some of the
equipment that spies usedthroughout history.
It was a very interestingmuseum.
It was a multi-floor museum.
(23:55):
If you can imagine me and myhusband and two other people
going to this museum, of course,they just raced ahead of me.
I was maybe in the first roomand they were already on the
third floor of the thing.
I felt bad because I had spentabout two and a half hours there
and they were getting ready toleave like they were in the gift
(24:16):
shop and they're like okay youknow we're getting ready to
leave it and fair enough it wastwo and a half hours that was
quite a long time to be in amuseum but I wasn't even halfway
done and I'm like you know Icould stay here easily another
Well, easily another two and ahalf because I was not even
halfway done, but definitelyanother three.
But I didn't want them sittingthere in the gift shop for three
(24:37):
hours waiting for me.
So one of the disappointments inmy lifetime is only seeing half
of the Spy Museum in Washington.
SPEAKER_01 (24:46):
So that's still on your hit list to get to the Spy
Museum.
Oh, gosh.
You know, I totally, again, yes,museums, art galleries.
And again, that's somethingthat's been with you from a very
young age.
And when you speak about theteaching and learning that
you're doing with the students,I really would like to talk
(25:07):
about the global perspectivethat you kind of bring to the
students and asking them tothink about it.
Because at what point, when didthat global shift happen for you
in your life?
SPEAKER_00 (25:19):
So I am very fortunate that I come from a
family who love to travel,particularly my mom.
My mom was dragging us.
I'm trying to think how old wewere the first time that we went
to Europe.
Gosh, I was maybe 15.
I think I was 15.
I mean, we were travelinginternationally really young,
(25:40):
and we were traveling around theUnited States even younger than
that.
So I come from a family where weprioritize travel.
I really appreciate that becauseit gave me a real different
perspective than a a lot of myclassmates and peers who didn't
have an opportunity to do thatat a I would become an exchange
(26:16):
student, and I became anexchange student to Japan.
I lived for a summer therebetween my junior and senior
year of high school, so thethird and fourth year of high
school.
I lived in Japan as an exchangestudent.
It was a fantastic experience,not just because I was immersed
in another culture and justreally learned about other
(26:39):
people.
So you learn that other peopleare different because of the
culture in which they live andare raised, but also how much
you're alike despite the factthat you come from different
cultures.
So it's interesting that you seethe differences that we can
appreciate the variety ofcultures that we have in the
(27:00):
world, but also that we're allhuman beings and we have those
similar types of experiences asa result of being human.
So I think it's interesting andI like to share that with my
students because the universitythat I work for, we have quite a
number of students who come fromwhat I would call, I hate to use
(27:20):
that word, but quote,disadvantaged backgrounds.
So most of them have not had anexperience to do much traveling
and definitely not travelingoutside of the United States
unless they've been in themilitary.
So a lot of people whoseexperience has been limited to
traveling Many times the town inwhich they grew up, or at the
very least the state in whichthey grew up, the United States
(27:44):
in itself is vast.
So even if you don't have theopportunity to travel around the
United States to broaden yourperspective, you have a very
limited view of the world justbased on the town in which you
grew up or even the state inwhich you grew up.
It really doesn't give you aperspective of other people's
ideas and values and values.
(28:06):
the differences in theirculture.
SPEAKER_01 (28:07):
Yeah, that's the thing, like you say, is because
America is so vast, you can gofrom one state to another and
experience a big difference inkind of the cultural melting pot
and all of the differences.
It's actually quite different tous here in Europe because we're
(28:27):
so used to traveling becauseeverything's close by, smaller.
Although having said that, andwe have this thing where I'm
kind of based in the South, andas soon as you go further up,
the accents change.
So I have a televisionnewsreader accent, some people
would say, others would not,whereas the different accents
(28:49):
and the regionalities is allpart of an experience.
When you kind of use that wordand you don't like using the
word disadvantage, what's yourtake on that?
Because is disadvantage...
just about having a less thanexperience than everyone else?
Or how does that word, I don'tknow, what does it mean to you?
(29:11):
Because you said you don't likeusing it.
SPEAKER_00 (29:13):
Well, in higher education, it's a word that's
used to describe students whomaybe have financial
disadvantages, so may requiresubstantial assistance to be
able to afford to go to school.
So In terms of financial aid,we'll talk about students who
may come from, again, the worddisadvantaged backgrounds.
(29:36):
So we may need to work with themto be able to figure out a plan
to be able to afford schoolbecause they don't come from a
wealthy background where theirparents can put out$30,000 or
$50,000 for tuition for a yearor two years or whatever the
cost is going to be.
So what's the plan to figure outhow you're going to be able to
(29:59):
afford a higher education?
Because in the United States,it's expensive.
Higher education, it can be costprohibitive for people who don't
come from wealthy backgrounds.
So that's one aspect of it.
Another aspect when they talkabout, quote, disadvantaged
students are people who comefrom what they call first
generation backgrounds.
(30:20):
So if you come from a situation,which a lot of our students do,
where no one in your family hasever earned a college degree,
you may not know the ins andouts of what the college
experience is.
If you come from a family whereeveryone in your family went to
Harvard for the past five or sixgenerations, and then you go to
(30:41):
Harvard, well, you're alreadyindoctrinated into that culture.
You know what Harvard is.
All your family went to Harvard.
You've probably visited thecampus many times.
You probably already know a lotof the people who are friends
with your grandfather or yourfather or your mother.
That's a much differentsituation than if your family
(31:02):
are recent immigrants.
You know, you may be the onlyperson in your family who speaks
English and no one in yourfamily may have finished high
school even.
And you're the first person inyour family to finish high
school.
No one in your family can giveyou advice about what it means
to go to college and be acollege student.
So that puts you at a, quote,disadvantage when it comes to
(31:24):
succeeding in higher education.
So that's where that word comesfrom.
SPEAKER_01 (31:29):
I totally hear what you're saying.
And it almost feels like, asyou're saying that, it becomes
even more of a responsibility tonot only to help, but to have a
wider kind of civicresponsibility, but really to
educate and use education as areal vehicle for expansion.
SPEAKER_00 (31:51):
Exactly.
So in the global issues class,for example, I have...
Yeah.
(32:18):
Here's also some articles that Ifound that talk about some of
the interesting aspects of theIcelandic culture.
Here's a really cool articlethat I found that you might want
to read about someanthropologists that found about
female Vikings that they didn'trealize existed.
So I can personalize myexperience that I had in that
(32:39):
culture and also bring in somescholarly resources of things
that they can read or currentevents that are happening.
Oh, did you know?
you know, one of the volcanoesjust erupted in Iceland within
the last six months, right?
So here, let's talk about that.
You know, I actually stood rightthere where that has, it wasn't
(32:59):
active then, but now it's likeflowing with lava.
And I was actually standingthere a few years ago.
Now it's filled with lava.
So, you know, I can personalizeit and bring in my experience
and also, you give them thescholarly aspect and the current
events of that community, thatculture, that country.
SPEAKER_01 (33:17):
Yeah.
And that's incredible becauseyou're able to really, really, I
kind of see it almost as aholistic way of being able to
teach and connect people towhat's possible beyond where
they are.
SPEAKER_00 (33:31):
Yeah, exactly.
And one of the words that arephrases that students use a lot
when they talk about my classeseye-opening.
SPEAKER_01 (33:39):
Oh, wow.
Incredible.
SPEAKER_00 (33:41):
Yeah, this class was really eye-opening.
I love that because that's whatI'm trying to do.
That's one of my goals.
I want to open them to broadentheir perspective and to also
motivate them to want to becurious and to explore.
And that's what actually gave methe idea for my podcast was
because after that global issuesclass, a lot of my students
(34:02):
Because every week I bring incurrent events, I bring in
articles about differentcountries and different cultures
and different ideas and justthings I want them to think
about and experience and want tolearn more about.
And after the term, or as we'regetting close to the end of the
term, students will say, what amI going to do after I don't have
this class anymore and you'renot finding me articles or
(34:24):
things to learn about anymore?
And I was like, maybe I shouldjust continue what I'm doing
with my curious professor andstart a podcast.
So that's what I've been doingwith my podcast and with the
things that I post on socialmedia, in my Facebook group and
on Instagram, just giving peoplethose types of things to be
(34:44):
curious about.
Did you know, and I'll talkabout something that they can
explore further that they mightnot know about.
I'm going to do one this week,interesting things about bats
because a lot of people don'tknow about bats and there's a
lot of really cool things aboutbats.
So just stuff like that, thatpeople might want a little
bite-sized piece of informationand that might satisfy their
(35:07):
curiosity or they might think,gosh, I didn't know that.
I want to learn more about bats.
And then they'll do their ownresearch or maybe even want to
visit those great caves here inthe US where you can actually go
caving and visit bats and seethem in their natural habitat.
SPEAKER_01 (35:24):
That's so cool.
That's incredible.
I'm going to ask you, I'm goingto flip it on its head because I
can hear that you're really ableto share so much of your
experience with the students andin terms of what they're
getting.
But when we talk about learningpersonal kind of journeys and
learning your own expansionjourney, I guess.
(35:45):
What have you learned fromteaching the students?
SPEAKER_00 (35:50):
Oh, wow.
That's a great question.
I feel like I learn so much allthe time because my students
have such different experiencesthan the experiences I've had.
Like I say, I live in Arizona,so I have a lot of students who
are either from Mexico or haveparents from Mexico or
(36:10):
generationally from Mexicandescent.
I learn a lot about Mexicanculture, what it's like to be an
immigrant from Mexico, all kindsof aspects about that, that
obviously I'm not.
I'm a white woman from NewJersey.
So learning about my studentsand their experiences, and
(36:33):
they're so different from thethings that I've experienced in
my life.
That's just one example of Ihave students, most of my
students, I don't have children.
I've not had the experience ofbeing a parent.
Most of my students have kidsand have a number of kids, which
is great because we do need torepopulate the earth and I'm not
(36:54):
doing my share of repopulation.
So, you know, it's great thatthey're having kids and
fulfilling that responsibility,but it becomes more challenging
for them as students.
So really for me, learning, notjust about what that experience
is, but also learning empathyand grace.
Because for me, I can do what Iwant pretty much when I want.
(37:16):
My husband's self-sufficient forthe most part.
He doesn't require a lot ofcare.
I do have a dog.
I have a bloodhound, but she'sgood and she doesn't require a
lot of...
She's old now.
It's not like she's a puppy.
So it's not like I have a lot ofresponsibility outside of
myself.
So for me to think about I havea student here who I admire so
(37:37):
much because not only is sheworking full-time in a
challenging profession, like,for example, we have a lot of
students who are nurses.
So here's a student who'sworking full-time as a nurse in
an extremely challengingprofession, particularly in the
days of COVID, obviously.
Not only that, but she has ayoung family.
(37:58):
She's raising three kids now.
Maybe even on her own and tryingto balance a demanding
profession and raising childrenand going to school full time.
I can't even imagine what that'slike.
So it forces me to think aboutwhat are those things that she's
going through or he's goingthrough?
You know, we have men and womenwho are in all kinds of
(38:20):
situations.
So.
you know, what are they goingthrough?
What is their experience?
And how can I be supportive andalso have empathy for that
experience or sometimessympathy?
Obviously, I can't put myself intheir shoes of raising kids, but
I certainly knew what it waslike to go to school because I
was doing my doctorate when Iwas working full time.
So I empathize with that, butdefinitely have sympathy for,
(38:43):
you know, somebody saying, allthree of my kids have COVID and
I'm dealing with COVID becauseI'm a nurse and I'm trying to
balance taking care of my familyand dealing with my patients.
And, you know, I might not getmy paper in until tomorrow.
Is that okay?
Well, yeah, I think, I thinkit's okay if your entire
household is sick, you know, andI, you know, I have students who
(39:06):
are dealing with a lot of issueslately.
I don't know how it is in, inthe UK where you are, but, Here
in the U.S., we just have aterrible, terrible opiate
crisis.
So I have a lot of students, notstudents who are dealing with it
themselves, I don't think, nonethat have said that to me
anyway, but certainly they havefamily members, siblings, and in
(39:29):
some cases, because we haveolder adult, mature adult
students who are in our classeswho have kids that are dealing,
because their kids are teenagersor young adults, and they're
dealing with the opiate crisis.
It's really, really challenging.
I had a student who said she wasthe only, she had come from a
small town and she said she wasone of the only people in the
(39:50):
entire town who wasn't addictedto opioids.
And I was like, oh my gosh, wow.
Not only how does that feel, butwhat is that like to have a
whole town in the US that'saddicted to opioids?
I mean, it's terrible and it'sheartbreaking that we have so
many people dealing with thatissue.
SPEAKER_01 (40:11):
You're learning from these incredible people.
They're incredibly powerful,humbling human lessons to be
able to learn.
Compassion, grace, empathy, andsympathy.
It's not even like they'relessons.
They're just incredibly powerfulhuman kind of connectors.
(40:34):
You were talking aboutessentially we're all the same.
And when it comes down to usbeing all the same, Being able
to be compassionate and showothers grace and be sympathetic
and empathetic to theirexperience is one of the most
powerful things that you canactually do.
But for some people, it's notpossible.
(40:57):
And for others like yourself,you're in this situation where
you're able to do that, really.
SPEAKER_00 (41:04):
Yeah, and it is a learning curve for a lot of
professors.
One of the things that I do isthat I train and mentor new,
younger, or less experiencedprofessors who are coming in
starting at our university.
It's difficult because they'retrying to balance what they
(41:25):
should be, quote, should bedoing.
So if you're coming in andyou're a new professor, you want
to shine and be a star and doeverything that you're supposed
to be doing.
So to balance that with thequote rules, things are due at a
certain day and we have acertain policy for late
assignments.
And so to balance doing allthose things that you're
(41:46):
supposed to be doing,particularly when you're new and
you want to be doing the bestthat you can to show that you're
a good instructor with beingable to give students a little
bit of leeway because they'rehaving issues and maybe even be
in crisis.
I have had more than a fewstudents tell me they were
(42:06):
considering killing themselves.
And to be in that position, I'mnot going to tell a student who
confides in me with that, oh,and by the way, I'm giving you
an F because you turned yourpaper in late.
I mean, that's just ridiculous,right?
So, you know, you have tobalance those two things with
you being caring and passionateand also being There are
deadlines and things that theyhave to meet as a student, but
(42:29):
there's a way in which you canbe compassionate and still
maintain that level of...
That professionalism.
Yeah, the professionalism.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (42:39):
It's so hard because I can see on both sides, like
you said, even as an experiencedprofessor, as a new teacher,
stepping into this, balancingall of that and being...
Right, right.
SPEAKER_00 (43:13):
Yeah, and putting yourself in other people's shoes
is easier for some people thanit is for others.
Some people don't have thatability or that ability is
limited.
At least that's been myexperience in talking with other
people and working with otherpeople.
Some people have a limitedcapacity to communicate.
Oh, that is incredibly powerful.
(43:51):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (44:00):
Really, really amazing.
I have a couple more questionsif you don't mind me asking.
Oh, sure.
Cool.
I'm really interested.
Tell us, because you've writtenover, what, 50 books.
You're a best-selling author.
Give us a little bit of aroundup on what the writing has
been about.
SPEAKER_00 (44:19):
Oh, my gosh.
How much more time do you have?
No, just
SPEAKER_01 (44:23):
kidding.
I have time.
SPEAKER_00 (44:25):
So that's been a journey unto itself, right?
Yes.
Yes.
(44:48):
by the time I was five, I knew Iwanted to write and I made my
mom help me write my first bookwhen I was five.
So it was quite obvious to me,but it was round.
I took a really roundabout routebecause when I was in high
school, really junior high andhigh school.
I didn't write as much becausethat's a time when you want to
be more social, obviously.
(45:09):
You have raging hormones andevery other thing.
Your peers are important whenyou're in junior high and high
school.
So I was more involved intheater then and acting and
being in plays and all thatstuff.
So I wasn't writing as much whenI was an adolescent.
But then toward my...
younger adult age, I guess youcould say.
(45:31):
And I was really doing someacting in community theater and
even dabbled in some movies andTV and stuff as an actor.
It got to a point where I had toreally get serious about a
career because you can't rely onyour parents forever.
You have to start supportingyourself when you're in your
20s.
So I had to get an apartment anddo all those things that you
(45:52):
have to do when You start onyour own out of the nest.
So I couldn't really be involvedin theater as much as I wanted
to anymore because I had acareer.
So I decided that I was tryingto write for theater.
So I started out writing playsand I did pretty well.
Like I had a number ofproductions for my stage plays,
(46:13):
but it's not very financiallyrewarding.
As rewarding as it is to seepeople produce your plays, I
mean, it's phenomenal.
It's a great feeling.
And the thing about theater isthat you write something and you
have a vision for it in yourmind.
But then when it's performed,it's completely different
(46:34):
because other people are takingit.
A director takes it andinterprets it.
It's like when you're playingthat.
I don't know if you played it inthe UK, but here in the US we
had this thing called phone.
I don't know.
I think it was called phone callor something.
It's a row of kids and you startat one end and you whisper
something and each personwhispered like you start with
(46:56):
one sentence and each personwhispers a sentence.
And by the time it gets to theend of this like 30 kid line,
the sentence has completelychanged.
It's a totally differentsentence.
SPEAKER_01 (47:06):
Yes.
In the UK, we've called thatChinese whispers for some
reason.
SPEAKER_00 (47:11):
Yeah.
I have no idea.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (47:12):
There we go.
SPEAKER_00 (47:13):
Same game.
So theater is kind of like that.
So you have a vision ofsomething when you write a play,
but then a director takes it andinterprets it his or her own way
or their own way.
And then it's, Actors will takethe script and do the same
thing.
So from what you wrote throughthe director and through the
(47:33):
actors, what it comes out on theother end, when you're sitting
in an audience, you're like,whoa, did I write that?
This is really good, but itreally has nothing to do with
you.
It was probably decent when,well, I can speak for myself.
When I wrote it, it was decent.
But by the time the director puttheir magic dust on it and then
the actors did their thing, it'slike, wow.
(47:55):
wow, these talented people mademe look really good.
Like my name's on that, but itwas really a combination of
everybody's magic creating thisthing that was much bigger than
any one person, right?
The sum of the parts is biggerthan the parts type of a thing.
So that's the magic of theater.
(48:15):
And it was amazing, but I didn'tmake any money writing plays.
So, well, I made a little bit ofmoney.
I shouldn't say I didn't makeany.
I made a little bit, but I mean,enough to go out to dinner to a
nice restaurant.
So I said, what can I do thatI'm going to make more money?
So I decided I was going tostart writing screenplays, which
(48:36):
is great.
And I've had screenplaysoptioned and I even sold a
screenplay.
Nothing's been made yet.
So I made a little bit of money,but I don't have anything
produced yet.
But it it was not as rewardingbecause unless you have it
produced, there's nothing there,but a script, right?
No one's ever going to see itbecause the screenplay is
(48:58):
nothing until it becomes amovie.
So that wasn't very satisfyingto me as a writer.
So I said, what can I do?
That'll be more satisfying.
And of course, you know, I'vebeen an avid reader since I was
four.
So I'm like, why am I notwriting books?
This is ridiculous.
So yeah, What year was it Istarted writing books?
2000, I think.
(49:19):
I started a little bit dabbling.
I had to take classes because Ididn't really know what I was
doing.
So I studied a lot.
I did a lot, a lot, a lot ofstudying and working with
mentors and taking writingclasses and reading, reading
even more.
And that was really bad.
Of course, when you startanything new, you think, I think
(49:40):
most people think, because theycan read that they're going to
be good writers and it doesn'treally work that way.
But that old saying of, youknow, you have to do 10,000
hours of something before you'regood at it.
SPEAKER_01 (49:51):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (49:52):
definitely is for writing.
At least it was for me.
I know there's naturallytalented people who just bang
out their first novel andthey're like, you know,
bajillion bestseller.
SPEAKER_01 (50:01):
I am a little bit jealous of them.
That's not
SPEAKER_00 (50:04):
me.
I've written, I lost track now,but at some point I knew I had
written over 3.5 million words.
It's probably around 4 millionnow.
But I've written a lot, areally, really, really lot.
And I have lots of stuff that Ithrow on that number 50 because
that's how many have beenpublished.
(50:24):
But I mean, I have tons of themin my files that are just
sitting there.
Basically because it's a processto format a book and get a cover
and do all the things you haveto do to actually get it
published.
So I like to write more than Ilike publishing.
So I have a lot of stuff that'sjust sitting there.
(50:45):
Maybe one day it'll getpublished, but I don't have time
right now.
So yeah, I've written a lot morebooks than have actually been
published.
And some of them are bad andwill never get published, but
that's okay.
That's part of the learningprocess and also just part of
the writing process becausethere's always stuff that you
think is going to be great andthen you write it and you're
like, what is this?
This isn't what I thought it wasgoing to be at all.
(51:06):
And you think, well, this isn'tworth putting out because I
don't like it.
So if I don't like it and I'mnot passionate about it, why
would I expect anyone else tolike it?
And then there's other stuffthat I think, I'm not even sure
I should write this.
This is pretty...
crazy.
And then I'll write it and I'llput it out there and people love
it.
And they're like, this isamazing.
(51:27):
And I'm like, I wasn't evengoing to publish it.
I thought it was weird, butpeople like it.
So you never know.
You never know what's going toresonate with other people.
I'm always wrong about my work.
The stuff that I think, oh, thisis going to be a hit.
I love this so much.
And it fails to find a market.
And then stuff I am not sureabout at all.
And people love it.
So I don't know if there's awriter out there who knows for
(51:50):
sure when something's going tobe hit.
I'm jealous because I sure don'tknow.
I wish I did.
It would be amazing.
But on this journey, so Istarted out writing kids books.
And I've written nonfiction.
I've written biographies.
I've written a lot of romancenovels.
(52:11):
So there was a point in timewhere I wanted to make money
from my writing.
And I was able to do that,writing romance novels.
There are certain genres thatcan be lucrative.
And romance is a genre that canbe quite lucrative.
So I did do that for threeyears.
I wrote a novel a month forthree years.
So it ended up being, well...
(52:32):
Wow.
(52:55):
And I'm dabbling in otherthings.
My next adventure is going to beCozy Mystery.
I really love mysteries.
I've always loved mysteries.
Huge fan of that type of, youknow, like Murder, She Wrote,
you know.
Oh, yes, absolutely.
I love that type of small towncozy mystery.
So that's going to be my nextadventure.
(53:17):
I'm going to be doing a seriesof cozy mysteries.
SPEAKER_01 (53:20):
Yeah, absolutely.
incredibly busy.
Yes.
But as I mentioned earlier, I
SPEAKER_00 (53:26):
don't have kids, which helps.
Oh, but
SPEAKER_01 (53:30):
yes.
Okay.
In the conventional sense, no.
But I mean, I feel like the waythat you're connecting with your
students, there's a level ofkind of nurturing happening
there anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (53:41):
Yes, I would agree.
SPEAKER_01 (53:43):
So that's still there.
And so you're still taking onand you know concern for their
welfare beyond what you're doingin the context of education so
that aspect is always there wowsorry it's very busy here today
honestly so I guess well as Isaid towards the end of an
(54:04):
episode I always love to askguests to leave a question for
the listeners so What would beyour biggest question that
potentially you've askedyourself or one that still kind
of keeps you going every day?
Because I know at the beginningof this conversation, you did
kind of mention what thosequestions potentially could be
(54:27):
that keep you searching.
But do you have a question forthe listeners?
SPEAKER_00 (54:32):
Oh, yeah.
So this is a question I used toask.
So The university where I work,we've transitioned more to
online learning because that'swhere the market is.
A lot of people want to learnonline now, and especially now
post-COVID, I think the majorityof learning will be online more
than in person.
But when I was doing 100...
(54:53):
I'm really old and, you know, Iwas at a point for a long time.
I don't believe
SPEAKER_01 (54:58):
that for one second.
Karen, take that back.
There's no such thing as old.
SPEAKER_00 (55:03):
When I first started teaching, there wasn't online
classes, really.
So that really didn't exist inthe market.
So I was 100% teaching inperson.
And I used to always have a partof the class where we talk about
the values and meaning and Iwould pose the question what do
you think is the meaning of lifeand we had excellent discussion
(55:24):
about that so I would ask thatto your audience what do you
think is the meaning of life I
SPEAKER_01 (55:30):
hope you enjoyed that thank you for joining me
for this episode of EternalParadigm join me next time
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