March 3, 2025 • 33 mins
Often called the "John Stott of Asia," Ajith Fernando has become a global influencer—not only by building a thriving youth ministry in Sri Lanka but also through his theological writings, where he unpacks biblical texts and deepens our understanding of discipleship.
Step into a profound exploration of ministry and faith as we engage with Ajith Fernando, renowned for his impactful work in Sri Lanka. Ajith’s journey is one of resilience and dedication, shaped by his upbringing in a Christian family where foundational beliefs were instilled early on. He shares his experiences growing up during turbulent times, illustrating how these circumstances impacted his spiritual growth and ministry outlook.
Throughout our conversation, Ajith provides insights into the complexities of leading a ministry amidst ethnic tensions and civil unrest. He emphasizes the power of dialogue, the necessity for cultural sensitivity, and the incredible strength that can arise from addressing frustrations head-on in community. Ajith's candid reflections on living a life devoted to service illuminate the framework of ministry that prioritizes community, particularly among the poor and marginalized.
As we navigate through the compelling stories of Ajith's experiences, listeners are encouraged to examine their own understanding of God's call and their role within their communities. This discussion serves to inspire us all to consider what it means to embody faith with courage and conviction, regardless of the challenges we face.
Join us for this enlightening episode that promises to inspire and challenge your perspective on leadership and community in the modern world. Share this episode with friends and reflect on how you can step into God’s calling in your life today.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brian Stiller (00:02):
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
My name is Brian Stiller,global Ambassador for the World
Evangelical Alliance and host ofthis new podcast series.
On Evangelical 360, I interviewleaders, writers and
(00:25):
influencers about contemporaryissues impacting Christian life
around the world.
My hope is that it will notonly be a global meeting place
where faith is explored fromdifferent perspectives, but that
each person listening will comeaway informed, encouraged,
challenged and inspired.
Today's guest is a friend ofmany decades, leader in ministry
(00:49):
, writer and teacher, AjithFernando, often referred to as
the John Stott of Asia, ajit hasbecome a worldwide influencer,
not only building an effectiveyouth ministry in Sri Lanka, but
in his writings on theology,unwrapping biblical texts and
helping us understanddiscipleship.
(01:10):
His name has emerged globallyas one of the most important
minds and hearts, effectivelyproviding guidance and insight
on what it means to followChrist and how that relates to
our ministry leadership.
It means to follow Christ andhow that relates to our ministry
leadership.
What strikes me is that hiswalk and talk are aligned.
Rather than leaving his homecountry for many enticing
(01:37):
opportunities, he continues toreside and build ministry in his
home country, even in themiddle of civil war and enormous
ecological disaster.
I'm sure it's going to be ariveting, informative
conversation.
Ajit, it's wonderful to haveyou here in our Canadian studio,
(01:58):
all the way from Sri Lanka.
Thanks for joining me today.
Ajith Fernando (02:01):
Thank you, and it's wonderful to be here.
Brian Stiller (02:03):
We met back in the 70s.
I followed your life both as afriend and as a colleague, and
so today we're going to do acouple of things.
One we're going to start withyour life what it means to
develop and lead ministry inyour country and your influence
worldwide.
But people would be veryinterested in knowing about your
(02:24):
life.
Give us a sketch of your lifegrowing up, the influences and
what has made you who you aretoday.
Ajith Fernando (02:33):
As I think, of my own life, the biggest
influence was my mother.
She's a convert to Christianity, taught us the Bible Every
morning.
She would wake us up and teachus the Bible from the time we
were little children, when thetime was ripe for me to make a
commitment to Christ.
She's the one who led me toChrist.
So she was one of those biginfluences, not only in my life,
(02:56):
but in my siblings too.
Brian Stiller (02:58):
What was your world like as a child growing up
in Sri Lanka?
Ajith Fernando (03:03):
My father was a government servant.
He was a respected layman,christian layman, so I had that
background of being coming froma non-Christian family.
Otherwise, it was a typicalmiddle-class family.
Brian Stiller (03:18):
How did that emerge into your youth ministry
and engagement at a fairly youngage and how did that integrate
with your own education Ever?
Ajith Fernando (03:28):
since I committed my life to Christ.
I was about 14 years old then,and immediately I felt a call to
the ministry.
I was a very shy person, neveropened my mouth in public, was
scared to tell anybody that Iwas going to be a minister,
preacher of the gospel.
How can this guy who can'tspeak preach?
As a young person, I wasnurtured in a very good church
(03:54):
and under a very godly pastorwho was an expositor of the
Bible.
He was from Ireland and so hehad a great influence in making
me want to join the ministry.
If the ministry is such awonderful thing, well, I'd like
to be in that too.
So that was the growth.
(04:14):
Then, when I was about 17 yearsold 16, 17 years old I came
across this movement, Youth forChrist, and I had a burden to
reach lost youth, and thisopened the door through
involvement there, to beinvolved in ministry.
And I've been with Youth forChrist as a volunteer and a
(04:36):
full-time worker for 60 years.
Brian Stiller (04:38):
How does a 14-year-old hear the call to
ministry?
Ajith Fernando (04:50):
year old, hear the call to ministry.
In my case there was no audibleor distinct sense that you have
been called, just a burden topreach and the sense this is
what I want to do.
But I never had anything thatsort of said you want to be,
though I must say my pastor whenhe was chatting to me one day
he asked me do you think God hascalled you to the ministry?
(05:11):
Being a person who thoughtnobody would ever think of me as
a minister, that had a biginfluence on my decision.
Brian Stiller (05:18):
Just a question by someone that you respect, how
that influences your thinkingand how strategic it is in
guiding your thoughts down aparticular track that eventually
becomes vocational.
That's pretty instructive forus, isn't it?
As how we speak and talk toothers.
Ajith Fernando (05:40):
Yeah, I think that is one aspect of what we
call prophecy.
Talk to others yeah, I thinkthat is one aspect of what we
call prophecy.
You know where you ask somebodyor say something to somebody
and it becomes something thatgod clearly uses to a person's
life.
When I told my parents, finally, that I want to join the
ministry, their advice to me wasfinish your university studies.
(06:03):
But at that entering universitywas very difficult.
Only about 2% of the highschool students entered.
So the first time I tried Ifailed.
So then I tried the second yearand I just managed to get in.
I was right at the bottom ofthe list but I somehow made it
(06:23):
and that was very helpful to me.
Those studies I didn't want todo that.
It was very hard.
I was doing a degree in biologyand one third of the grades
went into practicals and I'mvery weak with my hands, so I
could never.
You know, I used to cut thethings that I shouldn't cut and
(06:43):
keep the things that I shouldhave cut.
But it was very, very helpful.
For one thing, it was auniversity that had been a
Buddhist seminary just a fewyears before, so I had the
privilege of being in acompletely non-Christian
environment, learning aboutthese people having grown up in
(07:06):
a Christian home.
This was very helpful to me andit taught me the meaning of
frustration, which has become amajor theme in my theology of
ministry, because here I wasworking very hard, never doing
well, because a third of thegrade went for practicals.
There was one time when I hadthe highest grade in the theory
(07:27):
and the last grade in thepractical for zoology.
You know, to thrive in ministryyou have to learn to live with
frustration, and I think thiswas a very good training for me.
Brian Stiller (07:39):
But then your biblical theological training.
Where did that come from?
Ajith Fernando (07:44):
When I began to feel that I'm going to join the
ministry in university I startedthinking of going to seminary,
and my father was a layman buthe was very active in the Bible
Society and the Bible Societyused to arrange World Vision
Pastors Conferences, and amongthose who came for those
(08:08):
conferences were Carl Henry PaulRees, both of whom had contact
with Asbury Seminary, and sothey recommended me and I got a
scholarship and I was able to goto Asbury.
Brian Stiller (08:24):
Was that a shock?
Going from Sri Lanka to the USto study?
Ajith Fernando (08:28):
It was a shock.
I went in February, so it wasvery cold and the food was so
different to what I was used to,but it was such a thrill.
I had been wanting to studytheology from the time I was
about 15 years old, so all ofthe inconvenience was forgotten.
I must say that the cultureclash wasn't there for me.
(08:48):
I grew up in a westernized home.
It was much later, towards theend of my studies, that I began
to realize the cultural aspectsof Christianity, and when I went
back home I realized that therewas a great need for cultural
sensitivity.
But while in my first few yearsjust the thrill of studying
(09:10):
theology was so great that I itdidn't strike me, and what were
those cultural differences then?
Brian Stiller (09:20):
that would give you a different understanding of
the scripture.
Ajith Fernando (09:23):
Late in my ministry, I began to realize
that a key to nurturinggodliness among first generation
Christians that's my background.
The ministry I've done for thelast 45 years or so has been
with first generation Christiansfrom poor backgrounds
non-Westernized poor backgrounds, christian Christians from poor
(09:46):
backgrounds, non-westernizedpoor backgrounds and I realized
that a key is to understand thatthey are motivated by honor and
shame more than they are byright and wrong.
In fact, what they think to beright is what brings honor.
And then, as I began to look atthe scripture, I went through
the whole Bible, tracing andnoting, jotting down.
I have thousands of referencesof every time shame comes in the
(10:09):
Bible and there were so manyand I realized that the Bible
uses shame in a good way tomotivate people to be godly
Because, for example, lying isso much a part of our culture,
it's just part of the.
Sometimes it's wrong not to tella lie in our culture Because if
(10:31):
you are bringing dishonor toyour fellow colleague, it would
be wrong to tell the truth anddishonor him.
So lying and and truthfulnessin that sense was different.
So I began to realize that wewill have to find new ways to
motivate people to be truthfuland to be holy, and the way I
(10:54):
struggled with this is to workon the idea that we are
collectivistic in our approachto life.
We think as a group, so we haveto make some of these christian
values shared community values.
Community truth is communicatedbest through story, so the
(11:16):
stories help people to feel thereality of what we are saying,
not only to understand thereality.
Brian Stiller (11:23):
So so these have been things that I've been
working on these last few yearsdo you view the church that's
been established in sri lanka askind of a colonial enterprise,
or was the gospel that you weretaught as a child?
Did it have kind of authenticindigenous Christian life to it,
(11:44):
or was it a Europeanmanifestation?
Ajith Fernando (11:47):
Yeah, actually it was very much of a European
manifestation.
Our church, we were goingthrough what we might call the
post-colonial blues.
We were embarrassed by ourcolonial past, and the way that
expressed itself was in liberaltheology, because insisting on
(12:11):
the uniqueness of Christ, forexample, was considered arrogant
and colonialism was associatedwith arrogance.
So that's what I firstencountered my first few years
of ministry.
I was trying to present a caseas to why we need to preach the
(12:32):
gospel, because we were beingtold you don't need to do that
anymore.
This was all a reaction to theWestern dominance of our people,
and so I had to.
That was what struck me Then.
Youth for Christ decided aroundthe late 70s that we are going
(12:52):
to change our focus from workingwith churched youth to totally
unchurched youth, which ofcourse was people.
The churched youth werewesternized, whereas these
people were non-western.
So we got onto a pilgrimage oflearning as a staff.
(13:12):
We studied a little booklet theGospel and Culture coming from
the Lausanne movement.
We studied a little booklet theGospel and Culture coming from
the Lausanne movement.
It was a little booklet.
We went through it page by page, discussing how can we apply
this to our culture.
We got our staff to go andlearn drama and music from
non-Christian musicians, becauseChristian music was so
(13:34):
different to our music.
So that was something that camemuch later in my life and it
came to the church also a littlelater.
Actually there were some fromthe mainline churches who were
pushing very hard foridentification with the culture.
They were not theologicallyevangelical but they were trying
(13:56):
very hard and they did a lot ofgood that way.
The evangelical church caughton to this a little later.
And then of course, a lot ofthe West.
Because of the war and all theproblems in the country, a lot
of the Christians left thecountry.
We were left with a newgeneration of leaders who were
(14:17):
not from Western backgrounds,not from affluent backgrounds,
but were converts toChristianity from poorer,
easternized culture.
So naturally the church beganto take on an Eastern flavor
through those people to take onan Eastern flavor through those
(14:39):
people.
Brian Stiller (14:39):
That's very interesting that the church was
so Western in its orientation.
Although it lived in the SriLankan world, it had to
consciously try and understandits own national culture.
Have you found that to be truein other countries where
missions from Europe has beenthe prime introduction of the
gospel Missions?
Ajith Fernando (14:57):
plus colonialism , one of the blessings of
colonial rule.
Well, I don't know if you cancall it a blessing, but the
church in some places thrivedunder colonial rule.
Now, missionaries soon began togive people a sense of equality
, a sense of dignity.
(15:18):
That went against the colonialagenda and because of that a lot
of missionaries were despisedby their colonial rulers.
However, where there wascolonial rule, there was more of
an opportunity for missionariesto work and the church took on
(15:40):
a Western format.
There wasn't that much ofthinking on Eastern culture and
things like that.
There were stray missionarieswho realized this and adapted
but not many In the Westernworld, of course.
Brian Stiller (15:54):
we know of an enormous migration from Sri
Lanka to other countries.
I know you had manyopportunities to leave but you
chose to stay.
Can you walk us through theemotion of that journey?
Ajith Fernando (16:09):
I would say there are two things that helped
me.
Firstly, it was a strong sensethat this is where God called me
to be and I had this assurancethat if you are in the place
that God called you to be,you're going to be happy.
Actually, our family, when wewere having a terrible
(16:31):
revolution in the countrychildren hadn't gone to school
for months and people wereleaving.
Many of our friends left thecountry and I also got an
invitation from a school inMassachusetts to come and teach.
And I mean I was going throughimmense frustration because
buses were not running, trainswere not running, to keep our
(16:54):
office open, we had to go byvehicle and bring people to
office and you know it was afrustrating time.
But when we got the invitationfrom the seminary, I immediately
wrote back to say this is not.
And then my wife and I decided Ihad to ask ourselves we have to
make sure that our children,they didn't have a call to Sri
(17:16):
Lanka.
We are the ones who had a callto Sri Lanka.
What would make it worthwhilefor them to stay, for us to stay
?
So both of us decided, if wecan give them a happy home, that
is the greatest legacy we cangive and that we conscientiously
sought to give.
Whatever is happening outside,when they come home, there is a
(17:39):
place where they are accepted,where we can have fun, where we
enjoy each other.
That was the first thing, thesense that God had called us.
The other was a theology offrustration that had been
growing ever since I was inuniversity and would study so
hard but never did well becauseI was not good with my hands.
(18:02):
I realized that if you're goingto thrive in ministry, you have
to learn to live withfrustration, because people are
unpredictable.
Live with frustration becausepeople are unpredictable.
The people you expect torespond to your care and concern
don't, and some of the peopleyou least expect end up doing
(18:23):
wonderful things for God.
So I had to develop a theologyof frustrations that says it's
okay to feel bad, it's okay tothink that you're wasting your
time, it's okay because this islife.
Here we identify with thepeople who are living with
frustration, and if you aregoing to identify with them, we
(18:44):
too must do that.
Brian Stiller (18:46):
But in that I saw your life, either deliberately
or unconsciously, migrate tocare for the poor.
How did that come about?
Ajith Fernando (18:59):
Well, concern for the poor has been part of my
life from the time I was achild.
How so?
I used to see all these poorpeople around and I used to
wonder how come we live inluxury whereas these people are
like that?
In fact, there was a a timesometimes I used to sleep on the
ground, saying the poor don'thave uh beds, so why?
(19:21):
Why should I sleep on a bed?
And my mother used to scold meand send me back to the bed.
And so that was one one thing.
A second thing was my fatherwas one of those evangelicals.
In In the early years when theevangelicals were discovering
integral mission, social concern, my father was one of those
(19:43):
people who had a strong sensethat evangelism and the concern
for the poor must go hand inhand.
In fact, after he retired fromthe government, he worked for
World Vision.
He started World Vision in SriLanka.
So I had a family that wasconcerned for the poor, and it
so happened that I gravitated.
(20:05):
God led me to work with thesepeople and that, of course, has
influenced my life immensely.
Working with the poor, Irealized if we are going to see
leaders emerge.
I mean, leadership developmenthas been one of the things that
has been very much part of mylife being a leader of an
(20:27):
organization, developing leadershas been.
If we are going to developleaders, our people are
community-oriented.
We have to be part of acommunity and they must feel
that they are part of thiscommunity.
So in Youth for Christ wedeveloped some systems.
I was heavily influenced by thebook of Acts and by the book of
(20:48):
Deuteronomy.
That talked about concern forthe poor all the time, respect
for the poor, and so wedeveloped some principles
openness about finances, forexample.
We have an open salary book.
Anyone can go and look.
It's very inconvenient becausepeople look at the salary book
and say how come?
So-and-so is getting much andI'm not, you know, but it was
(21:11):
part of people.
The poor can come to receive asreceivers and if they come as
receivers and stay as receiversthey will never grow.
So they have to be vitalcommunity members.
In the early years, speaking inEnglish was called wielding the
(21:38):
sword, because when you talk inEnglish you're putting people
down.
Those who don't speak inEnglish, you're putting them
down.
So we made a rule don't speakin English when you're in that
community, because the tendencyis you're with people who don't
speak English, but with eachother we talk in English.
So we made a rule that we won'tdo that, because the donations
(21:59):
that the poor give to ourorganization are as important as
what the rich give.
So we won't.
We won't do that.
This is all part of trying tofoster a community of equals.
Now, when we began to do that,the result was very surprising.
The result was anger.
The poor suddenly realized theyare equal and they were angry.
(22:26):
We have been treated badly.
Society treated us as secondclass, you know, and we are not
second class.
So I that was one of the thingsyou know sometimes you think of
godliness as humility and allof that, whereas here godliness
expressed itself in angerbecause they realized the
scriptural truth they had beendeprived of and they were angry.
(22:49):
And the way to do that, to getout of it, was to embrace these
people, make them our children.
So discipling was very much apart of our ministry, and so we
began to disciple people andthey became our children and we
cared for them and they knew wecared for them.
It influenced the way weadopted, the lifestyle that we
(23:13):
adopted.
Ours, of course, is a countrywhere there are extremes of
poverty and wealth, so we triedto develop a lifestyle where the
poor didn't feel distant fromus.
So our home, we tried to have ahome like that, and I had this
(23:33):
crazy policy that goes against alot of what people are saying.
You know, modern innovationsare good for efficiency and
innovations are very helpful.
But I wouldn't go for a moderninnovation until the poor didn't
(23:56):
think it was extravagant.
For example, we didn't have amicrowave hour because the poor
at that time thought it wasextravagant.
So, uh, my sister was tryingand trying and trying to give me
a microwave.
I said no, I don't want, Idon't want, we don't want.
Finally, my sister and brotherdecided that they had to decide
(24:18):
for me and they came and gaveplace for it at home, but by a
microwave had become acceptable.
So I felt so that the poor willfeel at home among us, that we
will adopt a lifestyle thatdoesn't make them feel distant
(24:39):
to us, but you were leadingministry in the middle of a
civil war.
Brian Stiller (24:45):
Civil wars replicate themselves in many
other countries and peoplepastors, they lead churches,
they lead ministries.
How did that work out in SriLanka for you?
Ajith Fernando (24:57):
It was a very I could even use the word
traumatic.
I came from the majoritycommunity, so you had the
Sinhalese and Tamil, theSinhalese and the Tamil, and I'm
a Sinhalese.
70% of Sri Lanka, 74% of SriLanka, is Sinhalese.
The Tamils were asking for aseparate state, but they had
(25:17):
very legitimate rights and so itwas necessary for us.
We had ministries in bothlanguages and we had to develop
all sorts of principles tosurvive, for example, whenever I
sensed all of us are prejudiced.
You know, racism is one of thelast things that the process of
(25:40):
sanctification touches so all ofus are prejudiced and all of us
feel for our people.
So in Youth for Christ, werealized that there are going to
be different opinions on theethnic issue, and so we had to
meet regularly.
Sometimes I sensed things aregetting bad.
(26:02):
Then I get our nationalleadership together and we spend
maybe a whole day brainstormingwhat can we do?
What should we do?
I remember once things werereally bad.
There was a lot of ill willduring the war.
When a lot of people are dying,the Sinhalese people were
rejoicing that the Sinhalesearmy was winning and the Tamil
people were hurt and weepingthat their people were dying.
(26:26):
So we got together, I got ourleaders together, we chatted
from both races chatted, chatted, chatted, chatted, and then for
about a month I studied thescriptures to see what does the
scripture have to say to theseissues.
And after a month I prepared atalk and gave it to the whole
(26:47):
body of Youth for Christ and Ithink God used that talk.
So I think one of the things isdialogue.
You know you have to talk, youhave to talk.
And when I used to talk aboutthese issues, people used to say
these are things you shouldn'tpreach about because it makes
people angry.
But if you don't give anopportunity for people to
(27:09):
express their anger, there isnever going to be healing.
So that's one thing that welearned that we need to talk and
we need to agree that there aresome things we will disagree on
, but there are other thingsthat are non-negotiable.
What are those things that arenon-negotiable?
What are those things that arenon-negotiable?
Another thing I decided is thatI'm going to visit the war zone
(27:33):
which is not my race, it's theother race Once a year.
I'm going to attempt to visiteach center once a year.
Now that was a bit of a scare.
Sometimes I had to go by boatbecause the roads were closed,
sometimes by plane, sometimes bybus and it was quite scary, but
the fact that I came helpedkeep the connection.
(27:57):
Then we took teams when it waspossible.
We took teams of Sinhaleseyouth to Tamil areas and it was
amazing the response that peoplegot.
Sometimes they would go to achurch and the members of the
congregation in a Tamil churchthey're crying Because they
(28:18):
always thought of Sinhalese astheir enemies.
Now they are seeing Sinhalesewho are their brothers and
sisters.
So things like that we triedvery hard to be proactive about
this Ajit.
Brian Stiller (28:33):
Your life is remarkable, beginning at your
childhood and how the influencesshaped your choices, and then
listening to this from thescriptures and from others as
you make decisions through yourlife of leadership, For someone
(28:57):
listening who is wondering abouthow the call of God applies to
them.
Ajith Fernando (28:59):
What word would you have for them?
You know the will of God is.
Somebody said 90% obedience orsomething.
Somebody said 90 obedience orsomething.
You know uh, be obedient whereyou are and see what god is
trying to tell you.
Personally, for myself, I havealways chosen uh to be under a
community.
Brian Stiller (29:19):
For me it has been the youth for christ
community so for someone who'swondering about how they hear
God's call, how they're obedientto his will, what advice and
counsel would you have for them?
Ajith Fernando (29:32):
That's a difficult situation question to
answer, because God speaks todifferent people in different
ways.
So I would say the key is totry and arrive at some sort of
conviction.
The key is to try and arrive atsome sort of conviction.
This is what God wants me to do.
How that comes differs.
(29:54):
In my case it was just thisstrong sense that I had a burden
to preach and a strong sensethat I had that God had called
me For others.
You know, my brother had insome ways a more influential
ministry in the country than me.
He worked within the structuresof the Methodist Church and God
used him powerfully when hetold my mother that he wants to
(30:15):
become a minister.
He was an engineer.
My mother thought this was amistake.
When I told my mother I want tobe a minister, she was
immediately she said sherealized it was right.
So God works differently indifferent people.
The key, I would say, is awilling heart to be obedient to
God and to listen to people.
(30:36):
In my case, I had to listen tomy parents who asked me to go to
university, which seemed to besuch a foolish thing when you
look at it, you know, because itwas so much work.
It was at a time when it was sodifficult to enter university.
But I listened to them, Iobeyed them and even after that
(30:58):
I have been part of a community.
So you know, sometimes peopleask me what I want to?
Be a missionary.
I want to go as a missionary.
What advice do you have to giveme?
I say are you part of acommunity?
Commit yourself to thatcommunity, because a community
brings frustration, butcommitment is the thing that
(31:20):
helps you go through frustration.
Therefore, be part of thatcommunity so God can minister to
us.
Through the community, they canspeak to us.
Very often the call of Godcomes in community, set apart
for me, barnabas and so on,while they were praying.
So be part of a community.
Ask yourself what does God wantme to do?
Brian Stiller (31:44):
Ajit, wonderful to have you with us today.
Thank you for your richinsights and conversation about
your own life, so instructiveand helpful to us.
Thanks for being with us.
Thank you, sir.
Thanks so much, ajit, forjoining me today on Evangelical
360.
Every time I'm with you, Ilearn so much of what it means
(32:04):
to be a follower of Christ andhow that witness can radiate.
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(32:27):
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Thank you for listening.
Until next time.
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
My name is Brian Stiller,global Ambassador for the World
Evangelical Alliance and host ofthis new podcast series.
On Evangelical 360, I interviewleaders, writers and
(00:25):
influencers about contemporaryissues impacting Christian life
around the world.
My hope is that it will notonly be a global meeting place
where faith is explored fromdifferent perspectives, but that
each person listening will comeaway informed, encouraged,
challenged and inspired.
Today's guest is a friend ofmany decades, leader in ministry
(00:49):
, writer and teacher, AjithFernando, often referred to as
the John Stott of Asia, ajit hasbecome a worldwide influencer,
not only building an effectiveyouth ministry in Sri Lanka, but
in his writings on theology,unwrapping biblical texts and
helping us understanddiscipleship.
(01:10):
His name has emerged globallyas one of the most important
minds and hearts, effectivelyproviding guidance and insight
on what it means to followChrist and how that relates to
our ministry leadership.
It means to follow Christ andhow that relates to our ministry
leadership.
What strikes me is that hiswalk and talk are aligned.
Rather than leaving his homecountry for many enticing
(01:37):
opportunities, he continues toreside and build ministry in his
home country, even in themiddle of civil war and enormous
ecological disaster.
I'm sure it's going to be ariveting, informative
conversation.
Ajit, it's wonderful to haveyou here in our Canadian studio,
(01:58):
all the way from Sri Lanka.
Thanks for joining me today.
Ajith Fernando (02:01):
Thank you, and it's wonderful to be here.
Brian Stiller (02:03):
We met back in the 70s.
I followed your life both as afriend and as a colleague, and
so today we're going to do acouple of things.
One we're going to start withyour life what it means to
develop and lead ministry inyour country and your influence
worldwide.
But people would be veryinterested in knowing about your
(02:24):
life.
Give us a sketch of your lifegrowing up, the influences and
what has made you who you aretoday.
Ajith Fernando (02:33):
As I think, of my own life, the biggest
influence was my mother.
She's a convert to Christianity, taught us the Bible Every
morning.
She would wake us up and teachus the Bible from the time we
were little children, when thetime was ripe for me to make a
commitment to Christ.
She's the one who led me toChrist.
So she was one of those biginfluences, not only in my life,
(02:56):
but in my siblings too.
Brian Stiller (02:58):
What was your world like as a child growing up
in Sri Lanka?
Ajith Fernando (03:03):
My father was a government servant.
He was a respected layman,christian layman, so I had that
background of being coming froma non-Christian family.
Otherwise, it was a typicalmiddle-class family.
Brian Stiller (03:18):
How did that emerge into your youth ministry
and engagement at a fairly youngage and how did that integrate
with your own education Ever?
Ajith Fernando (03:28):
since I committed my life to Christ.
I was about 14 years old then,and immediately I felt a call to
the ministry.
I was a very shy person, neveropened my mouth in public, was
scared to tell anybody that Iwas going to be a minister,
preacher of the gospel.
How can this guy who can'tspeak preach?
As a young person, I wasnurtured in a very good church
(03:54):
and under a very godly pastorwho was an expositor of the
Bible.
He was from Ireland and so hehad a great influence in making
me want to join the ministry.
If the ministry is such awonderful thing, well, I'd like
to be in that too.
So that was the growth.
(04:14):
Then, when I was about 17 yearsold 16, 17 years old I came
across this movement, Youth forChrist, and I had a burden to
reach lost youth, and thisopened the door through
involvement there, to beinvolved in ministry.
And I've been with Youth forChrist as a volunteer and a
(04:36):
full-time worker for 60 years.
Brian Stiller (04:38):
How does a 14-year-old hear the call to
ministry?
Ajith Fernando (04:50):
year old, hear the call to ministry.
In my case there was no audibleor distinct sense that you have
been called, just a burden topreach and the sense this is
what I want to do.
But I never had anything thatsort of said you want to be,
though I must say my pastor whenhe was chatting to me one day
he asked me do you think God hascalled you to the ministry?
(05:11):
Being a person who thoughtnobody would ever think of me as
a minister, that had a biginfluence on my decision.
Brian Stiller (05:18):
Just a question by someone that you respect, how
that influences your thinkingand how strategic it is in
guiding your thoughts down aparticular track that eventually
becomes vocational.
That's pretty instructive forus, isn't it?
As how we speak and talk toothers.
Ajith Fernando (05:40):
Yeah, I think that is one aspect of what we
call prophecy.
Talk to others yeah, I thinkthat is one aspect of what we
call prophecy.
You know where you ask somebodyor say something to somebody
and it becomes something thatgod clearly uses to a person's
life.
When I told my parents, finally, that I want to join the
ministry, their advice to me wasfinish your university studies.
(06:03):
But at that entering universitywas very difficult.
Only about 2% of the highschool students entered.
So the first time I tried Ifailed.
So then I tried the second yearand I just managed to get in.
I was right at the bottom ofthe list but I somehow made it
(06:23):
and that was very helpful to me.
Those studies I didn't want todo that.
It was very hard.
I was doing a degree in biologyand one third of the grades
went into practicals and I'mvery weak with my hands, so I
could never.
You know, I used to cut thethings that I shouldn't cut and
(06:43):
keep the things that I shouldhave cut.
But it was very, very helpful.
For one thing, it was auniversity that had been a
Buddhist seminary just a fewyears before, so I had the
privilege of being in acompletely non-Christian
environment, learning aboutthese people having grown up in
(07:06):
a Christian home.
This was very helpful to me andit taught me the meaning of
frustration, which has become amajor theme in my theology of
ministry, because here I wasworking very hard, never doing
well, because a third of thegrade went for practicals.
There was one time when I hadthe highest grade in the theory
(07:27):
and the last grade in thepractical for zoology.
You know, to thrive in ministryyou have to learn to live with
frustration, and I think thiswas a very good training for me.
Brian Stiller (07:39):
But then your biblical theological training.
Where did that come from?
Ajith Fernando (07:44):
When I began to feel that I'm going to join the
ministry in university I startedthinking of going to seminary,
and my father was a layman buthe was very active in the Bible
Society and the Bible Societyused to arrange World Vision
Pastors Conferences, and amongthose who came for those
(08:08):
conferences were Carl Henry PaulRees, both of whom had contact
with Asbury Seminary, and sothey recommended me and I got a
scholarship and I was able to goto Asbury.
Brian Stiller (08:24):
Was that a shock?
Going from Sri Lanka to the USto study?
Ajith Fernando (08:28):
It was a shock.
I went in February, so it wasvery cold and the food was so
different to what I was used to,but it was such a thrill.
I had been wanting to studytheology from the time I was
about 15 years old, so all ofthe inconvenience was forgotten.
I must say that the cultureclash wasn't there for me.
(08:48):
I grew up in a westernized home.
It was much later, towards theend of my studies, that I began
to realize the cultural aspectsof Christianity, and when I went
back home I realized that therewas a great need for cultural
sensitivity.
But while in my first few yearsjust the thrill of studying
(09:10):
theology was so great that I itdidn't strike me, and what were
those cultural differences then?
Brian Stiller (09:20):
that would give you a different understanding of
the scripture.
Ajith Fernando (09:23):
Late in my ministry, I began to realize
that a key to nurturinggodliness among first generation
Christians that's my background.
The ministry I've done for thelast 45 years or so has been
with first generation Christiansfrom poor backgrounds
non-Westernized poor backgrounds, christian Christians from poor
(09:46):
backgrounds, non-westernizedpoor backgrounds and I realized
that a key is to understand thatthey are motivated by honor and
shame more than they are byright and wrong.
In fact, what they think to beright is what brings honor.
And then, as I began to look atthe scripture, I went through
the whole Bible, tracing andnoting, jotting down.
I have thousands of referencesof every time shame comes in the
(10:09):
Bible and there were so manyand I realized that the Bible
uses shame in a good way tomotivate people to be godly
Because, for example, lying isso much a part of our culture,
it's just part of the.
Sometimes it's wrong not to tella lie in our culture Because if
(10:31):
you are bringing dishonor toyour fellow colleague, it would
be wrong to tell the truth anddishonor him.
So lying and and truthfulnessin that sense was different.
So I began to realize that wewill have to find new ways to
motivate people to be truthfuland to be holy, and the way I
(10:54):
struggled with this is to workon the idea that we are
collectivistic in our approachto life.
We think as a group, so we haveto make some of these christian
values shared community values.
Community truth is communicatedbest through story, so the
(11:16):
stories help people to feel thereality of what we are saying,
not only to understand thereality.
Brian Stiller (11:23):
So so these have been things that I've been
working on these last few yearsdo you view the church that's
been established in sri lanka askind of a colonial enterprise,
or was the gospel that you weretaught as a child?
Did it have kind of authenticindigenous Christian life to it,
(11:44):
or was it a Europeanmanifestation?
Ajith Fernando (11:47):
Yeah, actually it was very much of a European
manifestation.
Our church, we were goingthrough what we might call the
post-colonial blues.
We were embarrassed by ourcolonial past, and the way that
expressed itself was in liberaltheology, because insisting on
(12:11):
the uniqueness of Christ, forexample, was considered arrogant
and colonialism was associatedwith arrogance.
So that's what I firstencountered my first few years
of ministry.
I was trying to present a caseas to why we need to preach the
(12:32):
gospel, because we were beingtold you don't need to do that
anymore.
This was all a reaction to theWestern dominance of our people,
and so I had to.
That was what struck me Then.
Youth for Christ decided aroundthe late 70s that we are going
(12:52):
to change our focus from workingwith churched youth to totally
unchurched youth, which ofcourse was people.
The churched youth werewesternized, whereas these
people were non-western.
So we got onto a pilgrimage oflearning as a staff.
(13:12):
We studied a little booklet theGospel and Culture coming from
the Lausanne movement.
We studied a little booklet theGospel and Culture coming from
the Lausanne movement.
It was a little booklet.
We went through it page by page, discussing how can we apply
this to our culture.
We got our staff to go andlearn drama and music from
non-Christian musicians, becauseChristian music was so
(13:34):
different to our music.
So that was something that camemuch later in my life and it
came to the church also a littlelater.
Actually there were some fromthe mainline churches who were
pushing very hard foridentification with the culture.
They were not theologicallyevangelical but they were trying
(13:56):
very hard and they did a lot ofgood that way.
The evangelical church caughton to this a little later.
And then of course, a lot ofthe West.
Because of the war and all theproblems in the country, a lot
of the Christians left thecountry.
We were left with a newgeneration of leaders who were
(14:17):
not from Western backgrounds,not from affluent backgrounds,
but were converts toChristianity from poorer,
easternized culture.
So naturally the church beganto take on an Eastern flavor
through those people to take onan Eastern flavor through those
(14:39):
people.
Brian Stiller (14:39):
That's very interesting that the church was
so Western in its orientation.
Although it lived in the SriLankan world, it had to
consciously try and understandits own national culture.
Have you found that to be truein other countries where
missions from Europe has beenthe prime introduction of the
gospel Missions?
Ajith Fernando (14:57):
plus colonialism , one of the blessings of
colonial rule.
Well, I don't know if you cancall it a blessing, but the
church in some places thrivedunder colonial rule.
Now, missionaries soon began togive people a sense of equality
, a sense of dignity.
(15:18):
That went against the colonialagenda and because of that a lot
of missionaries were despisedby their colonial rulers.
However, where there wascolonial rule, there was more of
an opportunity for missionariesto work and the church took on
(15:40):
a Western format.
There wasn't that much ofthinking on Eastern culture and
things like that.
There were stray missionarieswho realized this and adapted
but not many In the Westernworld, of course.
Brian Stiller (15:54):
we know of an enormous migration from Sri
Lanka to other countries.
I know you had manyopportunities to leave but you
chose to stay.
Can you walk us through theemotion of that journey?
Ajith Fernando (16:09):
I would say there are two things that helped
me.
Firstly, it was a strong sensethat this is where God called me
to be and I had this assurancethat if you are in the place
that God called you to be,you're going to be happy.
Actually, our family, when wewere having a terrible
(16:31):
revolution in the countrychildren hadn't gone to school
for months and people wereleaving.
Many of our friends left thecountry and I also got an
invitation from a school inMassachusetts to come and teach.
And I mean I was going throughimmense frustration because
buses were not running, trainswere not running, to keep our
(16:54):
office open, we had to go byvehicle and bring people to
office and you know it was afrustrating time.
But when we got the invitationfrom the seminary, I immediately
wrote back to say this is not.
And then my wife and I decided Ihad to ask ourselves we have to
make sure that our children,they didn't have a call to Sri
(17:16):
Lanka.
We are the ones who had a callto Sri Lanka.
What would make it worthwhilefor them to stay, for us to stay
?
So both of us decided, if wecan give them a happy home, that
is the greatest legacy we cangive and that we conscientiously
sought to give.
Whatever is happening outside,when they come home, there is a
(17:39):
place where they are accepted,where we can have fun, where we
enjoy each other.
That was the first thing, thesense that God had called us.
The other was a theology offrustration that had been
growing ever since I was inuniversity and would study so
hard but never did well becauseI was not good with my hands.
(18:02):
I realized that if you're goingto thrive in ministry, you have
to learn to live withfrustration, because people are
unpredictable.
Live with frustration becausepeople are unpredictable.
The people you expect torespond to your care and concern
don't, and some of the peopleyou least expect end up doing
(18:23):
wonderful things for God.
So I had to develop a theologyof frustrations that says it's
okay to feel bad, it's okay tothink that you're wasting your
time, it's okay because this islife.
Here we identify with thepeople who are living with
frustration, and if you aregoing to identify with them, we
(18:44):
too must do that.
Brian Stiller (18:46):
But in that I saw your life, either deliberately
or unconsciously, migrate tocare for the poor.
How did that come about?
Ajith Fernando (18:59):
Well, concern for the poor has been part of my
life from the time I was achild.
How so?
I used to see all these poorpeople around and I used to
wonder how come we live inluxury whereas these people are
like that?
In fact, there was a a timesometimes I used to sleep on the
ground, saying the poor don'thave uh beds, so why?
(19:21):
Why should I sleep on a bed?
And my mother used to scold meand send me back to the bed.
And so that was one one thing.
A second thing was my fatherwas one of those evangelicals.
In In the early years when theevangelicals were discovering
integral mission, social concern, my father was one of those
(19:43):
people who had a strong sensethat evangelism and the concern
for the poor must go hand inhand.
In fact, after he retired fromthe government, he worked for
World Vision.
He started World Vision in SriLanka.
So I had a family that wasconcerned for the poor, and it
so happened that I gravitated.
(20:05):
God led me to work with thesepeople and that, of course, has
influenced my life immensely.
Working with the poor, Irealized if we are going to see
leaders emerge.
I mean, leadership developmenthas been one of the things that
has been very much part of mylife being a leader of an
(20:27):
organization, developing leadershas been.
If we are going to developleaders, our people are
community-oriented.
We have to be part of acommunity and they must feel
that they are part of thiscommunity.
So in Youth for Christ wedeveloped some systems.
I was heavily influenced by thebook of Acts and by the book of
(20:48):
Deuteronomy.
That talked about concern forthe poor all the time, respect
for the poor, and so wedeveloped some principles
openness about finances, forexample.
We have an open salary book.
Anyone can go and look.
It's very inconvenient becausepeople look at the salary book
and say how come?
So-and-so is getting much andI'm not, you know, but it was
(21:11):
part of people.
The poor can come to receive asreceivers and if they come as
receivers and stay as receiversthey will never grow.
So they have to be vitalcommunity members.
In the early years, speaking inEnglish was called wielding the
(21:38):
sword, because when you talk inEnglish you're putting people
down.
Those who don't speak inEnglish, you're putting them
down.
So we made a rule don't speakin English when you're in that
community, because the tendencyis you're with people who don't
speak English, but with eachother we talk in English.
So we made a rule that we won'tdo that, because the donations
(21:59):
that the poor give to ourorganization are as important as
what the rich give.
So we won't.
We won't do that.
This is all part of trying tofoster a community of equals.
Now, when we began to do that,the result was very surprising.
The result was anger.
The poor suddenly realized theyare equal and they were angry.
(22:26):
We have been treated badly.
Society treated us as secondclass, you know, and we are not
second class.
So I that was one of the thingsyou know sometimes you think of
godliness as humility and allof that, whereas here godliness
expressed itself in angerbecause they realized the
scriptural truth they had beendeprived of and they were angry.
(22:49):
And the way to do that, to getout of it, was to embrace these
people, make them our children.
So discipling was very much apart of our ministry, and so we
began to disciple people andthey became our children and we
cared for them and they knew wecared for them.
It influenced the way weadopted, the lifestyle that we
(23:13):
adopted.
Ours, of course, is a countrywhere there are extremes of
poverty and wealth, so we triedto develop a lifestyle where the
poor didn't feel distant fromus.
So our home, we tried to have ahome like that, and I had this
(23:33):
crazy policy that goes against alot of what people are saying.
You know, modern innovationsare good for efficiency and
innovations are very helpful.
But I wouldn't go for a moderninnovation until the poor didn't
(23:56):
think it was extravagant.
For example, we didn't have amicrowave hour because the poor
at that time thought it wasextravagant.
So, uh, my sister was tryingand trying and trying to give me
a microwave.
I said no, I don't want, Idon't want, we don't want.
Finally, my sister and brotherdecided that they had to decide
(24:18):
for me and they came and gaveplace for it at home, but by a
microwave had become acceptable.
So I felt so that the poor willfeel at home among us, that we
will adopt a lifestyle thatdoesn't make them feel distant
(24:39):
to us, but you were leadingministry in the middle of a
civil war.
Brian Stiller (24:45):
Civil wars replicate themselves in many
other countries and peoplepastors, they lead churches,
they lead ministries.
How did that work out in SriLanka for you?
Ajith Fernando (24:57):
It was a very I could even use the word
traumatic.
I came from the majoritycommunity, so you had the
Sinhalese and Tamil, theSinhalese and the Tamil, and I'm
a Sinhalese.
70% of Sri Lanka, 74% of SriLanka, is Sinhalese.
The Tamils were asking for aseparate state, but they had
(25:17):
very legitimate rights and so itwas necessary for us.
We had ministries in bothlanguages and we had to develop
all sorts of principles tosurvive, for example, whenever I
sensed all of us are prejudiced.
You know, racism is one of thelast things that the process of
(25:40):
sanctification touches so all ofus are prejudiced and all of us
feel for our people.
So in Youth for Christ, werealized that there are going to
be different opinions on theethnic issue, and so we had to
meet regularly.
Sometimes I sensed things aregetting bad.
(26:02):
Then I get our nationalleadership together and we spend
maybe a whole day brainstormingwhat can we do?
What should we do?
I remember once things werereally bad.
There was a lot of ill willduring the war.
When a lot of people are dying,the Sinhalese people were
rejoicing that the Sinhalesearmy was winning and the Tamil
people were hurt and weepingthat their people were dying.
(26:26):
So we got together, I got ourleaders together, we chatted
from both races chatted, chatted, chatted, chatted, and then for
about a month I studied thescriptures to see what does the
scripture have to say to theseissues.
And after a month I prepared atalk and gave it to the whole
(26:47):
body of Youth for Christ and Ithink God used that talk.
So I think one of the things isdialogue.
You know you have to talk, youhave to talk.
And when I used to talk aboutthese issues, people used to say
these are things you shouldn'tpreach about because it makes
people angry.
But if you don't give anopportunity for people to
(27:09):
express their anger, there isnever going to be healing.
So that's one thing that welearned that we need to talk and
we need to agree that there aresome things we will disagree on
, but there are other thingsthat are non-negotiable.
What are those things that arenon-negotiable?
What are those things that arenon-negotiable?
Another thing I decided is thatI'm going to visit the war zone
(27:33):
which is not my race, it's theother race Once a year.
I'm going to attempt to visiteach center once a year.
Now that was a bit of a scare.
Sometimes I had to go by boatbecause the roads were closed,
sometimes by plane, sometimes bybus and it was quite scary, but
the fact that I came helpedkeep the connection.
(27:57):
Then we took teams when it waspossible.
We took teams of Sinhaleseyouth to Tamil areas and it was
amazing the response that peoplegot.
Sometimes they would go to achurch and the members of the
congregation in a Tamil churchthey're crying Because they
(28:18):
always thought of Sinhalese astheir enemies.
Now they are seeing Sinhalesewho are their brothers and
sisters.
So things like that we triedvery hard to be proactive about
this Ajit.
Brian Stiller (28:33):
Your life is remarkable, beginning at your
childhood and how the influencesshaped your choices, and then
listening to this from thescriptures and from others as
you make decisions through yourlife of leadership, For someone
(28:57):
listening who is wondering abouthow the call of God applies to
them.
Ajith Fernando (28:59):
What word would you have for them?
You know the will of God is.
Somebody said 90% obedience orsomething.
Somebody said 90 obedience orsomething.
You know uh, be obedient whereyou are and see what god is
trying to tell you.
Personally, for myself, I havealways chosen uh to be under a
community.
Brian Stiller (29:19):
For me it has been the youth for christ
community so for someone who'swondering about how they hear
God's call, how they're obedientto his will, what advice and
counsel would you have for them?
Ajith Fernando (29:32):
That's a difficult situation question to
answer, because God speaks todifferent people in different
ways.
So I would say the key is totry and arrive at some sort of
conviction.
The key is to try and arrive atsome sort of conviction.
This is what God wants me to do.
How that comes differs.
(29:54):
In my case it was just thisstrong sense that I had a burden
to preach and a strong sensethat I had that God had called
me For others.
You know, my brother had insome ways a more influential
ministry in the country than me.
He worked within the structuresof the Methodist Church and God
used him powerfully when hetold my mother that he wants to
(30:15):
become a minister.
He was an engineer.
My mother thought this was amistake.
When I told my mother I want tobe a minister, she was
immediately she said sherealized it was right.
So God works differently indifferent people.
The key, I would say, is awilling heart to be obedient to
God and to listen to people.
(30:36):
In my case, I had to listen tomy parents who asked me to go to
university, which seemed to besuch a foolish thing when you
look at it, you know, because itwas so much work.
It was at a time when it was sodifficult to enter university.
But I listened to them, Iobeyed them and even after that
(30:58):
I have been part of a community.
So you know, sometimes peopleask me what I want to?
Be a missionary.
I want to go as a missionary.
What advice do you have to giveme?
I say are you part of acommunity?
Commit yourself to thatcommunity, because a community
brings frustration, butcommitment is the thing that
(31:20):
helps you go through frustration.
Therefore, be part of thatcommunity so God can minister to
us.
Through the community, they canspeak to us.
Very often the call of Godcomes in community, set apart
for me, barnabas and so on,while they were praying.
So be part of a community.
Ask yourself what does God wantme to do?
Brian Stiller (31:44):
Ajit, wonderful to have you with us today.
Thank you for your richinsights and conversation about
your own life, so instructiveand helpful to us.
Thanks for being with us.
Thank you, sir.
Thanks so much, ajit, forjoining me today on Evangelical
360.
Every time I'm with you, Ilearn so much of what it means
(32:04):
to be a follower of Christ andhow that witness can radiate.
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Until next time.
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