March 11, 2025 • 33 mins
In this captivating episode of Evangelical 360, host Brian Stiller engages with Ajit Fernando, a distinguished leader and writer, to discuss the essence of servant leadership rooted in the life of Jesus. Fernando, often regarded as the “John Stott of Asia,” unpacks the timeless lessons of leadership, emphasizing the importance of identity and the role of the Holy Spirit. Listeners will discover how Jesus embodies transformative leadership that prioritizes love, humility, and connection to God. <br><br>Fernando shares personal anecdotes and practical insights from his extensive ministry experience, revealing how daily spiritual practices reinforce a leader's strength and purpose. As they discuss pressing challenges in Christian leadership today, Fernando underscores the necessity of fostering unity and collaboration among diverse church communities. This episode serves not only as an enlightening conversation but also as a call to action for listeners to reflect on their leadership roles. Fueled by the teachings of Jesus, Stiller and Fernando challenge us all to lead with joy and compassion. Join us for this enriching discussion, and connect with the heart of leadership. Don’t forget to subscribe, share your thoughts, and leave a review!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brian Stiller (00:06):
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
My name is Brian Stiller,global Ambassador for the World
Evangelical Alliance and host ofthis new podcast series.
On Evangelical 360, I interviewleaders, writers and
influencers about contemporaryissues impacting Christian life
(00:30):
around the world.
My hope is that it will notonly be a global meeting place
where faith is explored fromdifferent perspectives, but that
each person listening will comeaway informed, encouraged,
challenged and inspired.
Today's guest is a friend ofmany decades, leader in ministry
, writer and teacher, ajitFernando.
(00:52):
Often referred to as the JohnStott of Asia, Ajith has become
a worldwide influencer, not onlybuilding an effective youth
ministry in Sri Lanka, but inhis writings on theology,
unwrapping biblical texts andhelping us understand
(01:13):
discipleship.
Welcome, Ajith, nice to haveyou here, thank you.
Ajith Fernando (01:20):
Thank you, nice to be talking to you again.
Brian Stiller (01:28):
One of the important things that you have
written on is leadership, and Iremember your first book.
I was a conveyor of thatmanuscript to a publisher and we
got it published.
What was the name of that book?
Ajith Fernando (01:36):
Leadership Lifestyle.
That's right and that's whatgot me started as a writer.
Brian Stiller (01:41):
So we did a collegial activity in getting
that done, but obviously, inyour life, leadership has been
at the very core.
That's what you've done.
You've done it in a way, though, that many in the West would
not see as being a typicalleadership style.
You are quiet in a community.
You are not forceful in yourleadership style, so that is
(02:02):
unique, but I think it'sinviting for people then to ask
what are the essentials ofleadership.
So today I'd like to make thatthe focus of our conversation.
One of my favorite books isthis book Jesus Driven Ministry.
It's a study of Mark onleadership, and this will be
(02:24):
instructive for us all.
So, in a world whereChristianity composes 2.4
billion, how is it that wecontinue to go back to Jesus as
being the core?
Ajith Fernando (02:39):
Behind that comes a strong conviction that
for us Christians, the center ofChristianity is the life and
work of Jesus.
Not only his death but also hislife as the perfect human being
, the exact representation ofGod's nature.
(02:59):
He is our model to follow.
He is our model to follow.
Christian theology not onlybelieves in the death and
resurrection and ascension andsecond coming of Christ, which
is of course basic, but also thelife of Jesus, which gives us
on how we should be living.
(03:20):
So I would say that the bestsource to go to to find out
about life is jesus and that heis a model.
So in the 90s, preparing for aconference long ago it was a
world evangelical fellowshipmissions commission conference
(03:40):
in Iguazu I was asked to preachon a missiology of the Trinity.
In preparation for that I justwent through the whole New
Testament, just writing, jottingdown, jotting down, jotting
down everything I learned.
And I found so much about Jesusthat some years later I
(04:03):
realized I read this book.
Brian Stiller (04:05):
What is there about Jesus that is so
compelling that it not onlydrives this continuing
expression, the church, but youfind to be core to leadership?
Ajith Fernando (04:22):
You know, jesus inspired people, unlike some
other religious leaders who wereso esoteric in their teaching
that it was difficult tounderstand.
You have to go to the higherlevel of knowledge, otherwise
you won't understand.
Jesus was simply a person thatcan attract, that can absorb the
(04:46):
most simple, uneducated personinto becoming a great saint and
also the brilliant scholar, andright through history that's
been the case.
You know, I think of thebiggest influence in my life and
my most influential Bibleteacher as my mother, who was
not educated.
I mean, she never went beyondhigh school, she never went for
(05:10):
a course on how to study theBible, but she taught us the
Bible.
Then there were these otherpeople who influenced me, like
the great theologians John Stottand Carl Henry and people like
that, who were brilliantscholars but both found Jesus
compelling and I would say,because he was the perfect human
(05:32):
being, that he's appealing toeveryone.
Brian Stiller (05:36):
But there's something more than his ideas
that are compelling.
What about the essence of hislife that he transfers in us
following him?
What is there about that thatis so unique?
Ajith Fernando (05:49):
To me it's this mixture of his exalted son of
man.
You know, son of man is a titleof exaltation of dignity in the
book of Daniel and Jesusadopted that for himself.
So he never denied his exaltedidentity.
But the Son of man came toserve, and so this exalted
(06:14):
identity expressed itself insimple servanthood, resulting in
the death on a cross.
So here you see a completehuman being, someone whose
identity was intact, completelyintact, and he always marched
(06:35):
through every situation as onewho was in control, but then he
also marched through everysituation as one.
He also marched through everysituation as one who loved
people, who gave himself toserve.
So there is this completion ofhumanity in the life of Jesus
(07:00):
which makes him worthwhile modelfor any human.
Brian Stiller (07:01):
I notice Ajith in Jesus' Driven Ministry book as
you identify a number ofprinciples that you discover in
Jesus' ministry as expressed inMark's gospel.
You start off with the initialof identifying or identity.
I find that curious.
Why did that strike you asbeing so important as a
(07:23):
leadership principle?
Ajith Fernando (07:25):
To tell you the truth, it was not any great
theological idea that made me dothat.
That's simply the first thingthat came in the passage that I
was studying.
So I have always tried tofollow a passage in its
canonical order.
Brian Stiller (07:40):
And what is there about identity that is critical
to the leadership role.
Ajith Fernando (07:45):
I mean, there are different models of
leadership, styles of leadership.
Certainly, I wouldn't expectany good leader to follow my
style of leadership that has todo with my personality but there
are some features that allleaders have to have, and one of
them is identifying with thepeople they serve, coming close
to the people, not leading froma pedestal but coming incarnate
(08:10):
with the people.
So that, therefore,identification, is very
important.
Brian Stiller (08:28):
You use the word incarnate incarnation, which
refers to John's gospel aboutGod coming in, jesus coming into
humanity.
So you're talking aboutinvesting yourself with the
people.
Why is that strategic in theleadership role?
What does it do for you as aleader?
What does it do for the peoplethat you're leading?
Ajith Fernando (08:39):
For me as a leader.
It helps me understand mypeople and having understood
them, it helps inform thecontent of my leadership.
Because if I understood thatthese are their needs, this is
what they're going through, thenI would see how does the Bible
address these needs.
(08:59):
I would say that has been thebase of a lot of my teaching, of
my writing.
I identify a need in Sri Lankaand I say what does the Bible
say about this?
And I try to answer that.
So incarnation helps youidentify issues.
Incarnation also helps youappreciate people.
(09:22):
I work with the poor and howmuch I have learned from them.
You know dependence on god isso much easier for a poor person
than for a rich person.
Prayer, because they know whatit is to be desperate, they can
make great prayers, people ofprayer.
So you learn about your peoplethrough incarnation and you also
(09:46):
realize, because you are closeto people.
You realize where you havefailed, where you have fallen
short, and you adapt yourleadership style to be relevant,
to be effective amongst thesepeople to be effective amongst
(10:07):
these people.
Brian Stiller (10:07):
You talk about Jesus being filled with the Holy
Spirit and the importance ofknowing the Spirit, being
empowered by the Spirit.
Now, we've lived in a our lives, our decades of life, has lived
in a world where thePentecostal message has
infiltrated all parts of theChristian church.
So for you, as you look atleadership, how would you help
(10:28):
me understand the role of theHoly Spirit in my work as a
leader?
Ajith Fernando (10:35):
I would say that all that we do is done under
the guidance of the Holy Spirit,done under the guidance of the
Holy Spirit.
So I used to hear somebody saidthat, charles Spurgeon, when he
used to walk up to preach, hewould say I believe in the Holy
Spirit, I believe in the HolySpirit.
(10:57):
He just kept repeating that Ibelieve in the Holy Spirit and I
would say that is my approachto ministry too, and life.
Everything I'm praying Lord,please help me, please use me,
please help me.
When I'm counseling withsomebody, mentoring somebody,
all the time I'm praying throughthe process.
Please help me, please help me.
That is acknowledging that whatI do has to be done by the Holy
(11:21):
Spirit, acknowledging that I'mopen, open to change, open to
listening to His voice.
And I firmly believe, when weapproach God in that kind of
dependence upon God, in prayer,holy Spirit leads us.
Brian Stiller (11:38):
What does the Holy Spirit do?
The Holy Spirit is God.
The Holy Spirit is God.
We follow Jesus.
But apart from that contact andbelief and trust in Jesus, how
does the Holy Spirit embellishmy trust and my walk with Him as
a leader?
Ajith Fernando (12:02):
I think there are many things that he does
that help us.
For example, it says that theSpirit testifies with our spirit
that we are children of God.
The Holy Spirit is the one whogives us not only intellectual
assurance, which comes frombelieving what the Bible says,
but also experiential assuranceThrough our experience of His
leading, his affirmation in somecircumstantial event or
(12:24):
something like that.
The Holy Spirit has a way ofgiving us an experience of God
which makes him real, you say.
Brian Stiller (12:34):
the filling with the Holy Spirit has two aspects
in the book of Acts.
One is a quality of life thatshould characterize all
Christians.
The other is an anointing forspecial occasions.
Ajith Fernando (12:47):
Yes, I strongly believe that when we are doing
an assignment for God, we needGod's enabling to do that
assignment.
And that's how I'm describingthis word anointing, describing
this word anointing and enablingto do the work that God has
asked us to do.
(13:07):
So that is the special thingenabling for a special task
Whereas, on the other hand, theHoly Spirit, for example.
We are told that the HolySpirit fills us with love.
You know, we are filled withthe Holy Spirit, romans 5.5.
Through the Spirit, love ispoured into our hearts.
(13:31):
He comes and he indwells us,fills us with himself and
changes our character little bylittle.
So those are the two aspects ofthe Spirit's work.
One is transforming us.
Other one is using us forspecial tasks.
Brian Stiller (13:49):
We live in an age where you and I know of many
people and maybe in our ownlives, we talk about being
burned out, being exhausted,being at the end of our rope.
You note in one of yourprinciples, through Mark, that
Jesus getting away in a reprievewas critical to leadership.
(14:10):
How have you found that to beessential for your own
leadership role and for thestrategies that you employ as a
leader?
Ajith Fernando (14:20):
I would say the first retreat is spending time
with God every day.
Many people see this as adiscipline that has to be
followed, but to me, when Ispend time with God, what I'm
doing is buttressing my identityas a child of God.
What do you mean by that?
We are all insecure.
People feel we are inadequate,can't do the things that we are
(14:43):
called to do.
Just being in the presence ofGod, realizing that God loves
you and you are loved by God, ithas a way of just buttressing.
You are God's child, don'tworry, don't getressing.
You're God's child, don't worry, don't get upset.
You're God's child.
He's going to lead you.
So to me, the greatest value ofthe time spent with God is
(15:06):
buttressing my security, andinsecurity is, I believe, one of
the biggest causes for burnoutis, I believe, one of the
biggest causes for burnout.
People work and work and workand work and try to fulfill
their inadequacy through hardwork, through success, which is
a sure way of destroying our joyand our energy.
Brian Stiller (15:29):
So we're insecure .
At the core of insecurity isthat we are trusting in
ourselves rather than God.
Yeah, is that I would say so.
Ajith Fernando (15:39):
Yeah, and we are trusting in ourselves and we
have to be honest ourselves weare inadequate.
So we have to find somethingthat overcomes our inadequacy
and that something is God'senabling overcomes our
inadequacy and that something isGod's enabling how have you in
a practical sense taken timedaily in devotional life.
(16:09):
Tell me how it works for you.
In the morning I spend time.
I'm a late bird, you know.
I'm up till late in the nightworking usually, and then I get
up late.
I don't take any assignmentstill about 10 30 in the morning.
I start by singing a hymn.
I love music, like you, I lovemusic, and so I sing a hymn to
remind myself of the realitiesthat govern my life, and then I
(16:31):
just go and I'm praying forpeople.
I have a long, huge prayer listand I spend praying for people.
I have a long, huge prayer listand I spend maybe an hour or
sometimes more just going fromname to name to name to name to
name.
I mean it's not an exciting,highly exciting thing, but all
(16:52):
the time there is this sense Ihave been with God, god has
listened to me.
And then I read the Bible Again.
You know, sometimes when I readthe Bible it's exciting and I
get some inspirational thoughtsthat are tremendously uplifting.
Other times it's just.
I mean recently I was finishingChronicles and I was so
(17:14):
grateful when the book was over,but after reading that I come
out unconsciously.
This is God's word.
I have spent time in the thingthat is my authority for life.
So this is what I mean bybuttressing one's security by
(17:38):
being in the presence of God.
Brian Stiller (17:41):
But leaders are to get something done, aren't
they?
If you're leading a ministry orchurch, it isn't just getting
up in the morning and having agood devotional life or having a
retreat.
Yeah, it's getting somethingdone.
And I take this from your text.
I quote realizing the nature ofthe gospel gives the minister
of the word a sense ofcompulsion.
(18:02):
We realize that this is God'smessage to fallen humanity,
hence the seriousness of ourtask.
Paul expressed this compulsionwhen he said necessity is laid
upon me.
So, as a leader, you've ledYouth for Christ and you have
written on leadership.
You speak on leadership.
How do you, as a kind of aquiet, thoughtfully spoken
(18:27):
leader me, I'm more of arambunctious type A, but how do
you express that compulsivenature of the gospel and the
mandate as a leader?
Ajith Fernando (18:39):
Well, I think when you realize that God has
called you, there's so much needin the world, it has a way of
compelling you.
You know, paul says the love ofChrist constrains us, leaves us
with no choice, that is,applies pressure.
So time spent with god fillsyou with love that cries out for
(19:01):
release.
And there is so much need inthe world.
Now.
The problem is, which need arewe going to address?
Because there is so much need.
So I think this sense ofcompulsion you know, I'm very
sad that people are afraid ofintensity today.
They're afraid of urgency,passion, because they've seen so
many people burnt out.
(19:22):
You know that's very sad.
I think our compulsion comesfrom our nearness to God.
And when we are near to God werun back to God to get our
strength, we depend on him andour failures are not crippling
because, however much we fail,god is there with us and we can
(19:45):
go to him and cry out to him,lament, scold him, scold the
situation that we are in, butall of it is done in the
presence of God.
And so it's not this lonebattle to be a great person,
this drivenness, rather it is aresponse to a call.
Brian Stiller (20:05):
You have lived in the midst of difficulty wars,
ecological disaster, the tsunamibut also you have been a
minority religion in yourcountry.
How can you move with integrityas a Christian but also care
(20:29):
for your wider society and stilldeclare that Jesus is the only
way to the Father?
How can the uniqueness ofChrist be in your message and
you to live in that kind ofsociety?
How do you go about that?
Ajith Fernando (20:44):
I think a key here is realizing that we are
following a servant, lord as aservant.
He moved among people withhumility and with concern.
As Lord, he presented a gospelthat was unique and absolutely
unique.
(21:04):
Now we have to learn to mixthese two together.
So I really believe that we aregoing to make an impact upon
our nation if we are people oflove.
We must be known as people whorefuse to take revenge, who,
when there's a need, are thefirst ones to help, who are the
(21:26):
best neighbors you can find, whocare for our neighbors and who
are always ready to help.
In a situation like that, stopand walk.
You know, because I'm so busyin ministry, I don't have much
time to spend withnon-Christians, so I have to
proactively make it an aspect ofmy life.
(21:50):
So when I go for my walk, Iwalk in my neighborhood Just so
that I can chat to the neighbors, you know, and help in things
like that.
So I think we have to be aservant, known as a servant
presence in our nation.
Servanthood can apply itself indifferent ways, not only in
helping In carefully thoughtthrough statements on issue
(22:16):
facing the nation.
You know we are servants, wehave studied this issue and we
have carefully thought throughwhat we can do.
For example, when we had arevolution in the country, they
asked the youth movements whyare the people revolting?
This was not the war, this wasa different thing.
Why are the people revolting?
This was not the war, this wasa different thing.
(22:36):
And we as a movement gottogether.
I called our staff together, wespent a day brainstorming why
are the people revolting?
And we sent to the government astatement and some people
thought it was helpful.
They must know us as servantswho help the people.
(23:01):
Then there is this idea thatthere is also the sharing of the
gospel.
I must say it's not easy, butwe have to look for ways in
which we can proclaim the gospel.
Brian Stiller (23:11):
Ajith, in our evangelical world we're very
competitive, so you have manydenominations, many agencies,
many NGOs, but you write this inlooking in examining a
Jesus-driven ministry.
In Mark, you write disunity isone of Satan's greatest
strategies against the churchand sometimes this problem
(23:33):
results from his direct attackagainst the church.
And sometimes this problemresults from his direct attack.
You continue leaders need to bealert and do all they can to
overcome such attacks throughprayer, through talking with
hurt parties and through anyother means.
So you're putting your fingeron something that plagues many
of us.
How have you found in your ownministry and in your own country
(23:54):
, found in your own ministry andin your own country, how to go
about facilitating or generatingunity?
Ajith Fernando (24:00):
Within the movement that I have led.
I led Youth for Christ for 35years and I would say the most
absorbing, most intense,concentration requiring task
(24:20):
that I had was keeping the teamtogether, because when people
work together, they are alsoyoung people.
They are, you know, youngpeople are fiery.
Keeping the team together wasthe most challenging task that I
had and that we must beproactive.
Look to do that properly.
I think we cop out when there'sa problem, what to do?
(24:43):
They can't get together, so letthem.
And that's why I mean the numberof organizations, the churches
in our country is a scandal,because not because we don't, we
need new churches, but we don'tneed churches to be dividing,
dividing, dividing, you know,because they have problems.
(25:05):
One day they are hugging eachother and praising God.
Next day they have gone, gonesomewhere else, because they
haven't committed themselves tothe task, to the hard task of
solving problems.
Now that's on a local level, ona national level.
I think a key is friendship.
(25:25):
We need to adopt approacheswhereby leaders can be friends
with each other and share andpray.
So I think that's another thingyou know.
Brian Stiller (25:46):
In ministry, risk is an element.
How do you both embody?
Ajith Fernando (25:56):
and manifest faith in your own leadership
role.
I take very few risks.
That's my nature, yes, but I'ma leader of a group that takes a
lot of risks.
That's my nature, yes, but I'ma leader of a group that takes a
lot of risk.
So I had to learn to accept therisks that my colleagues were
taking and back them and givethem the space to do it.
So I would say that the key isprayer, together, debate,
(26:19):
argument and all of that untilyou're willing to say this is
what we have to do.
And even though I personallywould not prefer to do that,
because God's person in my grouphas this strong vision, I
choose to back it and support it.
But I think it comes out ofprayer, of discussing.
(26:43):
I have found that, you know,when I was leader, I'm not
gifted with a lot of practicalwisdom and when I was a leader,
I think about 60, 70% of theproposals I gave to our staff
they rejected, but almost alwaysthey came up with something
(27:03):
that modified and greatlyimproved my proposal.
So I think risk is very good,but Christianity is a body
religion.
Risk must be taken as acommunity and then, once the
community has battled throughthis thing, when the problems
come.
They don't discourage theinitiator of the risk-taking
(27:26):
undertaking, but rather theycome behind that person and help
that person to fulfill thisdream that he or she has come up
with.
Brian Stiller (27:37):
Not only in your life but in your writing and
theology, you have looked atwhat it means to lead as a
follower of Christ and as aleader of ministry or a pastor.
Now, as we look back, whatwould be the important lessons
that you have learned, that youwould pass on to me, as an
aspiring younger leader, or onewho is in the middle of my life
(28:01):
and given responsibilities to?
Ajith Fernando (28:05):
lead.
Let me say what I think is thebiggest mistake I have made.
When I saw something thatconcerned me, I didn't address
it.
I thought let it pass.
Very often it's theunpleasantness of addressing
difficult issues that kept mefrom this, and I have seen a lot
(28:27):
of damage coming as a result ofthat.
So I this is something it maybe in the life of a person, in
the direction that a division istaking things, that decisions
that they are making.
So I would say, if you see aproblem, address it at once.
Be careful.
(28:48):
Of course, sometimes, in orderto encourage a enthusiastic
person, we may be slow in theway we redress it because we
don't want to discourage anenthusiastic person, but at the
same time, when there there areconcerns, we need to address
them.
I didn't very often andsuffered as a result.
Brian Stiller (29:08):
What would be the top two principles or elements
of leadership that you learnedto be essential to encourage a
younger leader today?
Ajith Fernando (29:19):
You know, midterm in my ministry as a
leader, as leader of youth forchrist ceo of a bank, he told me
you know, the sense ofleadership is keeping the team
together.
And I would say that is theleader's great task keep the
team together, make sure thatyou're close to the team, make
(29:42):
sure that you can trust them andif you can't trust them, work
until you come to a position ofbeing able to trust them.
So I would say a key, the keyto leading a group of people, is
to keep the team together.
Brian Stiller (29:59):
And you as a leader?
What is the most essentialthing in your life?
Ajith Fernando (30:03):
In my life, I would say it would be keeping
short accounts with God.
I often fail.
I spend too much time on theinternet.
Sometimes I will scold somebodywhen I shouldn't Things like
that, and I don't want to gothrough life with the burden of
(30:26):
these things that I have donewrong.
So I would like to confess toGod, or confess to my wife.
I have an accountability teamthat I confess to if I have done
wrong, so that you don't livewith the burden of unsettled
issues.
That's one thing and it's thesame with you know.
(30:48):
If you have hurt somebody, youknow and there's a broken
relationship to deal with that.
Because you don't have to gothrough leadership the journey
as a leader with unnecessarybaggage baggage that can be
handled and completed.
Brian Stiller (31:07):
I think that we have to work with and your
lessons from Mark about watchingthe life of Jesus.
What captivated you about yourstudy of him?
Ajith Fernando (31:25):
your study of him.
One thing that I in my study ofjesus as was to see how 29
times I found.
There may be more, but I found29 times in the gospels where we
are asked to follow the exampleof jesus.
Six of those times are general.
Agree, like follow me as Ifollow christ, forgive as he
forgives.
23 times of the 29 times we areasked to follow jesus it is to
(31:51):
ask to follow him as a servantand in suffering, mainly in
suffering and as a servant.
So one of the things thatencourages me about Jesus is
Jesus was a happy sufferer.
You know, just before he diedhe says I have told you these
things, that my joy may be inyou and that your joy will be
(32:13):
full.
And so I have to learn to livewith frustration, with suffering
, and know what it is to behappy in the midst of it.
Brian Stiller (32:23):
Ajith, so wonderful to have you with us.
I love your writings, love tohear from you.
I have for years watched yourministry and as colleagues we've
engaged in things together andyou are such an inspiration to
us all.
Thank you for being with us andGod continue to give you years
(32:44):
of ongoing ministry in yourscholarship and your writing and
your teaching.
Thanks again.
Ajith Fernando (32:48):
Thank you, Brian .
It's good to be with you always.
Thank you.
Brian Stiller (32:54):
Thanks so much, Ajith, for joining me today on
Evangelical 360.
If you've missed part one of myconversation with Ajit Fernando
, just go to evangelical360.com.
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
My name is Brian Stiller,global Ambassador for the World
Evangelical Alliance and host ofthis new podcast series.
On Evangelical 360, I interviewleaders, writers and
influencers about contemporaryissues impacting Christian life
(00:30):
around the world.
My hope is that it will notonly be a global meeting place
where faith is explored fromdifferent perspectives, but that
each person listening will comeaway informed, encouraged,
challenged and inspired.
Today's guest is a friend ofmany decades, leader in ministry
, writer and teacher, ajitFernando.
(00:52):
Often referred to as the JohnStott of Asia, Ajith has become
a worldwide influencer, not onlybuilding an effective youth
ministry in Sri Lanka, but inhis writings on theology,
unwrapping biblical texts andhelping us understand
(01:13):
discipleship.
Welcome, Ajith, nice to haveyou here, thank you.
Ajith Fernando (01:20):
Thank you, nice to be talking to you again.
Brian Stiller (01:28):
One of the important things that you have
written on is leadership, and Iremember your first book.
I was a conveyor of thatmanuscript to a publisher and we
got it published.
What was the name of that book?
Ajith Fernando (01:36):
Leadership Lifestyle.
That's right and that's whatgot me started as a writer.
Brian Stiller (01:41):
So we did a collegial activity in getting
that done, but obviously, inyour life, leadership has been
at the very core.
That's what you've done.
You've done it in a way, though, that many in the West would
not see as being a typicalleadership style.
You are quiet in a community.
You are not forceful in yourleadership style, so that is
(02:02):
unique, but I think it'sinviting for people then to ask
what are the essentials ofleadership.
So today I'd like to make thatthe focus of our conversation.
One of my favorite books isthis book Jesus Driven Ministry.
It's a study of Mark onleadership, and this will be
(02:24):
instructive for us all.
So, in a world whereChristianity composes 2.4
billion, how is it that wecontinue to go back to Jesus as
being the core?
Ajith Fernando (02:39):
Behind that comes a strong conviction that
for us Christians, the center ofChristianity is the life and
work of Jesus.
Not only his death but also hislife as the perfect human being
, the exact representation ofGod's nature.
(02:59):
He is our model to follow.
He is our model to follow.
Christian theology not onlybelieves in the death and
resurrection and ascension andsecond coming of Christ, which
is of course basic, but also thelife of Jesus, which gives us
on how we should be living.
(03:20):
So I would say that the bestsource to go to to find out
about life is jesus and that heis a model.
So in the 90s, preparing for aconference long ago it was a
world evangelical fellowshipmissions commission conference
(03:40):
in Iguazu I was asked to preachon a missiology of the Trinity.
In preparation for that I justwent through the whole New
Testament, just writing, jottingdown, jotting down, jotting
down everything I learned.
And I found so much about Jesusthat some years later I
(04:03):
realized I read this book.
Brian Stiller (04:05):
What is there about Jesus that is so
compelling that it not onlydrives this continuing
expression, the church, but youfind to be core to leadership?
Ajith Fernando (04:22):
You know, jesus inspired people, unlike some
other religious leaders who wereso esoteric in their teaching
that it was difficult tounderstand.
You have to go to the higherlevel of knowledge, otherwise
you won't understand.
Jesus was simply a person thatcan attract, that can absorb the
(04:46):
most simple, uneducated personinto becoming a great saint and
also the brilliant scholar, andright through history that's
been the case.
You know, I think of thebiggest influence in my life and
my most influential Bibleteacher as my mother, who was
not educated.
I mean, she never went beyondhigh school, she never went for
(05:10):
a course on how to study theBible, but she taught us the
Bible.
Then there were these otherpeople who influenced me, like
the great theologians John Stottand Carl Henry and people like
that, who were brilliantscholars but both found Jesus
compelling and I would say,because he was the perfect human
(05:32):
being, that he's appealing toeveryone.
Brian Stiller (05:36):
But there's something more than his ideas
that are compelling.
What about the essence of hislife that he transfers in us
following him?
What is there about that thatis so unique?
Ajith Fernando (05:49):
To me it's this mixture of his exalted son of
man.
You know, son of man is a titleof exaltation of dignity in the
book of Daniel and Jesusadopted that for himself.
So he never denied his exaltedidentity.
But the Son of man came toserve, and so this exalted
(06:14):
identity expressed itself insimple servanthood, resulting in
the death on a cross.
So here you see a completehuman being, someone whose
identity was intact, completelyintact, and he always marched
(06:35):
through every situation as onewho was in control, but then he
also marched through everysituation as one.
He also marched through everysituation as one who loved
people, who gave himself toserve.
So there is this completion ofhumanity in the life of Jesus
(07:00):
which makes him worthwhile modelfor any human.
Brian Stiller (07:01):
I notice Ajith in Jesus' Driven Ministry book as
you identify a number ofprinciples that you discover in
Jesus' ministry as expressed inMark's gospel.
You start off with the initialof identifying or identity.
I find that curious.
Why did that strike you asbeing so important as a
(07:23):
leadership principle?
Ajith Fernando (07:25):
To tell you the truth, it was not any great
theological idea that made me dothat.
That's simply the first thingthat came in the passage that I
was studying.
So I have always tried tofollow a passage in its
canonical order.
Brian Stiller (07:40):
And what is there about identity that is critical
to the leadership role.
Ajith Fernando (07:45):
I mean, there are different models of
leadership, styles of leadership.
Certainly, I wouldn't expectany good leader to follow my
style of leadership that has todo with my personality but there
are some features that allleaders have to have, and one of
them is identifying with thepeople they serve, coming close
to the people, not leading froma pedestal but coming incarnate
(08:10):
with the people.
So that, therefore,identification, is very
important.
Brian Stiller (08:28):
You use the word incarnate incarnation, which
refers to John's gospel aboutGod coming in, jesus coming into
humanity.
So you're talking aboutinvesting yourself with the
people.
Why is that strategic in theleadership role?
What does it do for you as aleader?
What does it do for the peoplethat you're leading?
Ajith Fernando (08:39):
For me as a leader.
It helps me understand mypeople and having understood
them, it helps inform thecontent of my leadership.
Because if I understood thatthese are their needs, this is
what they're going through, thenI would see how does the Bible
address these needs.
(08:59):
I would say that has been thebase of a lot of my teaching, of
my writing.
I identify a need in Sri Lankaand I say what does the Bible
say about this?
And I try to answer that.
So incarnation helps youidentify issues.
Incarnation also helps youappreciate people.
(09:22):
I work with the poor and howmuch I have learned from them.
You know dependence on god isso much easier for a poor person
than for a rich person.
Prayer, because they know whatit is to be desperate, they can
make great prayers, people ofprayer.
So you learn about your peoplethrough incarnation and you also
(09:46):
realize, because you are closeto people.
You realize where you havefailed, where you have fallen
short, and you adapt yourleadership style to be relevant,
to be effective amongst thesepeople to be effective amongst
(10:07):
these people.
Brian Stiller (10:07):
You talk about Jesus being filled with the Holy
Spirit and the importance ofknowing the Spirit, being
empowered by the Spirit.
Now, we've lived in a our lives, our decades of life, has lived
in a world where thePentecostal message has
infiltrated all parts of theChristian church.
So for you, as you look atleadership, how would you help
(10:28):
me understand the role of theHoly Spirit in my work as a
leader?
Ajith Fernando (10:35):
I would say that all that we do is done under
the guidance of the Holy Spirit,done under the guidance of the
Holy Spirit.
So I used to hear somebody saidthat, charles Spurgeon, when he
used to walk up to preach, hewould say I believe in the Holy
Spirit, I believe in the HolySpirit.
(10:57):
He just kept repeating that Ibelieve in the Holy Spirit and I
would say that is my approachto ministry too, and life.
Everything I'm praying Lord,please help me, please use me,
please help me.
When I'm counseling withsomebody, mentoring somebody,
all the time I'm praying throughthe process.
Please help me, please help me.
That is acknowledging that whatI do has to be done by the Holy
(11:21):
Spirit, acknowledging that I'mopen, open to change, open to
listening to His voice.
And I firmly believe, when weapproach God in that kind of
dependence upon God, in prayer,holy Spirit leads us.
Brian Stiller (11:38):
What does the Holy Spirit do?
The Holy Spirit is God.
The Holy Spirit is God.
We follow Jesus.
But apart from that contact andbelief and trust in Jesus, how
does the Holy Spirit embellishmy trust and my walk with Him as
a leader?
Ajith Fernando (12:02):
I think there are many things that he does
that help us.
For example, it says that theSpirit testifies with our spirit
that we are children of God.
The Holy Spirit is the one whogives us not only intellectual
assurance, which comes frombelieving what the Bible says,
but also experiential assuranceThrough our experience of His
leading, his affirmation in somecircumstantial event or
(12:24):
something like that.
The Holy Spirit has a way ofgiving us an experience of God
which makes him real, you say.
Brian Stiller (12:34):
the filling with the Holy Spirit has two aspects
in the book of Acts.
One is a quality of life thatshould characterize all
Christians.
The other is an anointing forspecial occasions.
Ajith Fernando (12:47):
Yes, I strongly believe that when we are doing
an assignment for God, we needGod's enabling to do that
assignment.
And that's how I'm describingthis word anointing, describing
this word anointing and enablingto do the work that God has
asked us to do.
(13:07):
So that is the special thingenabling for a special task
Whereas, on the other hand, theHoly Spirit, for example.
We are told that the HolySpirit fills us with love.
You know, we are filled withthe Holy Spirit, romans 5.5.
Through the Spirit, love ispoured into our hearts.
(13:31):
He comes and he indwells us,fills us with himself and
changes our character little bylittle.
So those are the two aspects ofthe Spirit's work.
One is transforming us.
Other one is using us forspecial tasks.
Brian Stiller (13:49):
We live in an age where you and I know of many
people and maybe in our ownlives, we talk about being
burned out, being exhausted,being at the end of our rope.
You note in one of yourprinciples, through Mark, that
Jesus getting away in a reprievewas critical to leadership.
(14:10):
How have you found that to beessential for your own
leadership role and for thestrategies that you employ as a
leader?
Ajith Fernando (14:20):
I would say the first retreat is spending time
with God every day.
Many people see this as adiscipline that has to be
followed, but to me, when Ispend time with God, what I'm
doing is buttressing my identityas a child of God.
What do you mean by that?
We are all insecure.
People feel we are inadequate,can't do the things that we are
(14:43):
called to do.
Just being in the presence ofGod, realizing that God loves
you and you are loved by God, ithas a way of just buttressing.
You are God's child, don'tworry, don't getressing.
You're God's child, don't worry, don't get upset.
You're God's child.
He's going to lead you.
So to me, the greatest value ofthe time spent with God is
(15:06):
buttressing my security, andinsecurity is, I believe, one of
the biggest causes for burnoutis, I believe, one of the
biggest causes for burnout.
People work and work and workand work and try to fulfill
their inadequacy through hardwork, through success, which is
a sure way of destroying our joyand our energy.
Brian Stiller (15:29):
So we're insecure .
At the core of insecurity isthat we are trusting in
ourselves rather than God.
Yeah, is that I would say so.
Ajith Fernando (15:39):
Yeah, and we are trusting in ourselves and we
have to be honest ourselves weare inadequate.
So we have to find somethingthat overcomes our inadequacy
and that something is God'senabling overcomes our
inadequacy and that something isGod's enabling how have you in
a practical sense taken timedaily in devotional life.
(16:09):
Tell me how it works for you.
In the morning I spend time.
I'm a late bird, you know.
I'm up till late in the nightworking usually, and then I get
up late.
I don't take any assignmentstill about 10 30 in the morning.
I start by singing a hymn.
I love music, like you, I lovemusic, and so I sing a hymn to
remind myself of the realitiesthat govern my life, and then I
(16:31):
just go and I'm praying forpeople.
I have a long, huge prayer listand I spend praying for people.
I have a long, huge prayer listand I spend maybe an hour or
sometimes more just going fromname to name to name to name to
name.
I mean it's not an exciting,highly exciting thing, but all
(16:52):
the time there is this sense Ihave been with God, god has
listened to me.
And then I read the Bible Again.
You know, sometimes when I readthe Bible it's exciting and I
get some inspirational thoughtsthat are tremendously uplifting.
Other times it's just.
I mean recently I was finishingChronicles and I was so
(17:14):
grateful when the book was over,but after reading that I come
out unconsciously.
This is God's word.
I have spent time in the thingthat is my authority for life.
So this is what I mean bybuttressing one's security by
(17:38):
being in the presence of God.
Brian Stiller (17:41):
But leaders are to get something done, aren't
they?
If you're leading a ministry orchurch, it isn't just getting
up in the morning and having agood devotional life or having a
retreat.
Yeah, it's getting somethingdone.
And I take this from your text.
I quote realizing the nature ofthe gospel gives the minister
of the word a sense ofcompulsion.
(18:02):
We realize that this is God'smessage to fallen humanity,
hence the seriousness of ourtask.
Paul expressed this compulsionwhen he said necessity is laid
upon me.
So, as a leader, you've ledYouth for Christ and you have
written on leadership.
You speak on leadership.
How do you, as a kind of aquiet, thoughtfully spoken
(18:27):
leader me, I'm more of arambunctious type A, but how do
you express that compulsivenature of the gospel and the
mandate as a leader?
Ajith Fernando (18:39):
Well, I think when you realize that God has
called you, there's so much needin the world, it has a way of
compelling you.
You know, paul says the love ofChrist constrains us, leaves us
with no choice, that is,applies pressure.
So time spent with god fillsyou with love that cries out for
(19:01):
release.
And there is so much need inthe world.
Now.
The problem is, which need arewe going to address?
Because there is so much need.
So I think this sense ofcompulsion you know, I'm very
sad that people are afraid ofintensity today.
They're afraid of urgency,passion, because they've seen so
many people burnt out.
(19:22):
You know that's very sad.
I think our compulsion comesfrom our nearness to God.
And when we are near to God werun back to God to get our
strength, we depend on him andour failures are not crippling
because, however much we fail,god is there with us and we can
(19:45):
go to him and cry out to him,lament, scold him, scold the
situation that we are in, butall of it is done in the
presence of God.
And so it's not this lonebattle to be a great person,
this drivenness, rather it is aresponse to a call.
Brian Stiller (20:05):
You have lived in the midst of difficulty wars,
ecological disaster, the tsunamibut also you have been a
minority religion in yourcountry.
How can you move with integrityas a Christian but also care
(20:29):
for your wider society and stilldeclare that Jesus is the only
way to the Father?
How can the uniqueness ofChrist be in your message and
you to live in that kind ofsociety?
How do you go about that?
Ajith Fernando (20:44):
I think a key here is realizing that we are
following a servant, lord as aservant.
He moved among people withhumility and with concern.
As Lord, he presented a gospelthat was unique and absolutely
unique.
(21:04):
Now we have to learn to mixthese two together.
So I really believe that we aregoing to make an impact upon
our nation if we are people oflove.
We must be known as people whorefuse to take revenge, who,
when there's a need, are thefirst ones to help, who are the
(21:26):
best neighbors you can find, whocare for our neighbors and who
are always ready to help.
In a situation like that, stopand walk.
You know, because I'm so busyin ministry, I don't have much
time to spend withnon-Christians, so I have to
proactively make it an aspect ofmy life.
(21:50):
So when I go for my walk, Iwalk in my neighborhood Just so
that I can chat to the neighbors, you know, and help in things
like that.
So I think we have to be aservant, known as a servant
presence in our nation.
Servanthood can apply itself indifferent ways, not only in
helping In carefully thoughtthrough statements on issue
(22:16):
facing the nation.
You know we are servants, wehave studied this issue and we
have carefully thought throughwhat we can do.
For example, when we had arevolution in the country, they
asked the youth movements whyare the people revolting?
This was not the war, this wasa different thing.
Why are the people revolting?
This was not the war, this wasa different thing.
(22:36):
And we as a movement gottogether.
I called our staff together, wespent a day brainstorming why
are the people revolting?
And we sent to the government astatement and some people
thought it was helpful.
They must know us as servantswho help the people.
(23:01):
Then there is this idea thatthere is also the sharing of the
gospel.
I must say it's not easy, butwe have to look for ways in
which we can proclaim the gospel.
Brian Stiller (23:11):
Ajith, in our evangelical world we're very
competitive, so you have manydenominations, many agencies,
many NGOs, but you write this inlooking in examining a
Jesus-driven ministry.
In Mark, you write disunity isone of Satan's greatest
strategies against the churchand sometimes this problem
(23:33):
results from his direct attackagainst the church.
And sometimes this problemresults from his direct attack.
You continue leaders need to bealert and do all they can to
overcome such attacks throughprayer, through talking with
hurt parties and through anyother means.
So you're putting your fingeron something that plagues many
of us.
How have you found in your ownministry and in your own country
(23:54):
, found in your own ministry andin your own country, how to go
about facilitating or generatingunity?
Ajith Fernando (24:00):
Within the movement that I have led.
I led Youth for Christ for 35years and I would say the most
absorbing, most intense,concentration requiring task
(24:20):
that I had was keeping the teamtogether, because when people
work together, they are alsoyoung people.
They are, you know, youngpeople are fiery.
Keeping the team together wasthe most challenging task that I
had and that we must beproactive.
Look to do that properly.
I think we cop out when there'sa problem, what to do?
(24:43):
They can't get together, so letthem.
And that's why I mean the numberof organizations, the churches
in our country is a scandal,because not because we don't, we
need new churches, but we don'tneed churches to be dividing,
dividing, dividing, you know,because they have problems.
(25:05):
One day they are hugging eachother and praising God.
Next day they have gone, gonesomewhere else, because they
haven't committed themselves tothe task, to the hard task of
solving problems.
Now that's on a local level, ona national level.
I think a key is friendship.
(25:25):
We need to adopt approacheswhereby leaders can be friends
with each other and share andpray.
So I think that's another thingyou know.
Brian Stiller (25:46):
In ministry, risk is an element.
How do you both embody?
Ajith Fernando (25:56):
and manifest faith in your own leadership
role.
I take very few risks.
That's my nature, yes, but I'ma leader of a group that takes a
lot of risks.
That's my nature, yes, but I'ma leader of a group that takes a
lot of risk.
So I had to learn to accept therisks that my colleagues were
taking and back them and givethem the space to do it.
So I would say that the key isprayer, together, debate,
(26:19):
argument and all of that untilyou're willing to say this is
what we have to do.
And even though I personallywould not prefer to do that,
because God's person in my grouphas this strong vision, I
choose to back it and support it.
But I think it comes out ofprayer, of discussing.
(26:43):
I have found that, you know,when I was leader, I'm not
gifted with a lot of practicalwisdom and when I was a leader,
I think about 60, 70% of theproposals I gave to our staff
they rejected, but almost alwaysthey came up with something
(27:03):
that modified and greatlyimproved my proposal.
So I think risk is very good,but Christianity is a body
religion.
Risk must be taken as acommunity and then, once the
community has battled throughthis thing, when the problems
come.
They don't discourage theinitiator of the risk-taking
(27:26):
undertaking, but rather theycome behind that person and help
that person to fulfill thisdream that he or she has come up
with.
Brian Stiller (27:37):
Not only in your life but in your writing and
theology, you have looked atwhat it means to lead as a
follower of Christ and as aleader of ministry or a pastor.
Now, as we look back, whatwould be the important lessons
that you have learned, that youwould pass on to me, as an
aspiring younger leader, or onewho is in the middle of my life
(28:01):
and given responsibilities to?
Ajith Fernando (28:05):
lead.
Let me say what I think is thebiggest mistake I have made.
When I saw something thatconcerned me, I didn't address
it.
I thought let it pass.
Very often it's theunpleasantness of addressing
difficult issues that kept mefrom this, and I have seen a lot
(28:27):
of damage coming as a result ofthat.
So I this is something it maybe in the life of a person, in
the direction that a division istaking things, that decisions
that they are making.
So I would say, if you see aproblem, address it at once.
Be careful.
(28:48):
Of course, sometimes, in orderto encourage a enthusiastic
person, we may be slow in theway we redress it because we
don't want to discourage anenthusiastic person, but at the
same time, when there there areconcerns, we need to address
them.
I didn't very often andsuffered as a result.
Brian Stiller (29:08):
What would be the top two principles or elements
of leadership that you learnedto be essential to encourage a
younger leader today?
Ajith Fernando (29:19):
You know, midterm in my ministry as a
leader, as leader of youth forchrist ceo of a bank, he told me
you know, the sense ofleadership is keeping the team
together.
And I would say that is theleader's great task keep the
team together, make sure thatyou're close to the team, make
(29:42):
sure that you can trust them andif you can't trust them, work
until you come to a position ofbeing able to trust them.
So I would say a key, the keyto leading a group of people, is
to keep the team together.
Brian Stiller (29:59):
And you as a leader?
What is the most essentialthing in your life?
Ajith Fernando (30:03):
In my life, I would say it would be keeping
short accounts with God.
I often fail.
I spend too much time on theinternet.
Sometimes I will scold somebodywhen I shouldn't Things like
that, and I don't want to gothrough life with the burden of
(30:26):
these things that I have donewrong.
So I would like to confess toGod, or confess to my wife.
I have an accountability teamthat I confess to if I have done
wrong, so that you don't livewith the burden of unsettled
issues.
That's one thing and it's thesame with you know.
(30:48):
If you have hurt somebody, youknow and there's a broken
relationship to deal with that.
Because you don't have to gothrough leadership the journey
as a leader with unnecessarybaggage baggage that can be
handled and completed.
Brian Stiller (31:07):
I think that we have to work with and your
lessons from Mark about watchingthe life of Jesus.
What captivated you about yourstudy of him?
Ajith Fernando (31:25):
your study of him.
One thing that I in my study ofjesus as was to see how 29
times I found.
There may be more, but I found29 times in the gospels where we
are asked to follow the exampleof jesus.
Six of those times are general.
Agree, like follow me as Ifollow christ, forgive as he
forgives.
23 times of the 29 times we areasked to follow jesus it is to
(31:51):
ask to follow him as a servantand in suffering, mainly in
suffering and as a servant.
So one of the things thatencourages me about Jesus is
Jesus was a happy sufferer.
You know, just before he diedhe says I have told you these
things, that my joy may be inyou and that your joy will be
(32:13):
full.
And so I have to learn to livewith frustration, with suffering
, and know what it is to behappy in the midst of it.
Brian Stiller (32:23):
Ajith, so wonderful to have you with us.
I love your writings, love tohear from you.
I have for years watched yourministry and as colleagues we've
engaged in things together andyou are such an inspiration to
us all.
Thank you for being with us andGod continue to give you years
(32:44):
of ongoing ministry in yourscholarship and your writing and
your teaching.
Thanks again.
Ajith Fernando (32:48):
Thank you, Brian .
It's good to be with you always.
Thank you.
Brian Stiller (32:54):
Thanks so much, Ajith, for joining me today on
Evangelical 360.
If you've missed part one of myconversation with Ajit Fernando
, just go to evangelical360.com.
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