March 14, 2025 • 38 mins
Join us for a captivating episode with Nouhoum Coulibaly as he shares his journey of faith, resilience, and God’s provision. Growing up in Mali, he faced both hardship and deep spiritual growth within a Christian family. Despite financial struggles, his strong faith laid the foundation for a life of service. Through trials and unexpected challenges, Nouhoum’s story reveals the transformative power of perseverance, community, and unwavering trust in God’s calling.
As he discusses the shift in contemporary missions, Nouhoum reveals how the roles have evolved. It's no longer a one-way street; it now involves a rich exchange of cultures and ideas. His insights are both poignant and motivating, especially as he illuminates the misconceptions surrounding poverty and wealth within a faith context. Not only does he offer a window into the burdens of being a missionary, but he also underscores the power of collaboration and mutual respect in current mission frameworks.
The discussion delves into how Nouhoum now serves as a bridge between two worlds, emphasizing the importance of education in combating both intellectual and spiritual poverty. Through his work in establishing a Christian school in Mali that welcomes students from all backgrounds, he demonstrates a commitment to holistic ministry that merges faith with practical needs.
This episode not only inspires but challenges us to rethink our approach to missions in a multicultural society. Nouhoum invites pastors and church communities to actively engage in missions that honor partnerships over paternalism, fostering relationships that empower rather than impose. Don't miss this opportunity to gain valuable perspectives on faith and service across borders.
Be sure to subscribe, share, and explore together how we can all contribute to a mission that serves everyone, everywhere.
Zion Alliance Church - https://zioncma.ca/
Grace Between Nations - https://www.gracebetweennations.org/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brian Stiller (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
My name is Brian Stiller,global Ambassador for the World
Evangelical Alliance and host ofthis new podcast series.
On Evangelical 360, I interviewleaders, writers and
influencers about contemporaryissues which are important to
Christian life around the world.
My hope is that it will notonly be a global meeting place
(00:34):
where faith is explored fromdifferent perspectives, but that
each person listening will comeaway informed, encouraged,
challenged and inspired.
Today, our focus is on missions.
I don't know about you, but Igrew up in a time where the
church defined Christianmissions as sending people
around the world.
(00:55):
That age has changed.
Instead of ascending, often, wenow are the receivers, as
people from Africa and elsewhereland on our shores and, in life
and ministry, becomemissionaries in our own backyard
.
is one such person.
His story is fascinating andseemingly improbable.
(01:17):
A student working in Mali,africa, he was able to travel to
Canada, where his life took ona surprising turn.
I can't wait for you to hearhis amazing story.
, thanks for joining me todayand talking about the way that
(01:40):
God led you out of Africa toNorth America.
An intriguing story.
I happen to be president ofTyndale University, the school
that you arrived at, and yourstory as it unfolded was a
remarkable reminder of how Godmoves in our own lives.
But take us back to Molly.
(02:01):
Tell me a bit about yourchildhood and how you came to
faith and ministry.
Nouhoum Coulibaly (02:06):
Thank you so much, president, Brian.
It's so beautiful to see youagain after so many years.
Yes, my name is Nohum Kulibali.
I was born in the country ofMali, where the famous Timbuktu
is located.
It's a real place.
I was born to a pastoral family.
My dad passed away with theAlliance, my mom helping at home
(02:29):
as a really great woman at home, prayer and cooking.
So Mali is one of the poorestcountries in the world,
financially, economicallyspeaking, and I grew up in that
country and in a pastoral home.
By the time I was growing up,my father ministered mainly in
(02:50):
the countryside farmers.
When he's pastoring, nobodycould read and write, so nobody
had been to school.
So just give you an idea howpoor people were at that time, I
would say financially,physically speaking.
That's the context in which Iwas born and grew up, defined by
(03:10):
poverty.
And yet in that context,amazing thing happened.
And what happened?
What happened was my fatherbeing a preacher, a pastor.
On an Easter day, when I wasseven years old, he preached on
the passion, the resurrection,the death and the resurrection
of Jesus Christ and challengedus to give our lives to Jesus.
(03:33):
Although we had not made thatdecision, I was touched by God's
word by the Spirit.
On that day, after the service,I went to him and said Dad, I
want to give my life to Jesus.
He led me through prayer.
I gave my life to Jesus on thatday.
The same day nighttime I gotbeaten by a viper at home.
When that happened we were allin tears because this was a very
(03:57):
venomous snake.
The problem was again becauseof the poverty.
The nearest health center wasat 12 kilometers.
My father, mother said we haveno money to take you there.
We can only pray for you.
They prayed.
Seven days later I wascompletely healed with the
medicine that started thejourney of prayer and the
(04:22):
spiritual wealth in a financialpoverty context.
And then, because of that, youknow, I was in grade one at that
time, continued my educationuntil I reached university
college.
In the meantime, in 1985, myparents sent me to a youth camp
organized by the ChristianMission Alliance Church.
(04:43):
There we were challenged to sayyes to Jesus for his mission in
Mali.
Mali being a Muslim country,90% at that time, evangelical
being less than 1%.
They challenged us, the younggeneration, to consider giving
our life to Jesus and for hisministry.
(05:03):
I said, lord, I would like todo that one day for you, three
years later.
I say no because of poverty.
I don't want to end in poverty,like my father not able to buy
shoes for his children.
I can't do that because of alack of shoes, that I got bitten
by a viper at home.
But you know what?
Grade 12, I got insomnia, tookall kinds of medicine.
(05:27):
It didn't work until they sentme to a gentleman called Nuhum,
like my name.
He prayed for me for healing.
As soon as he said amen, hesaid you know what, nuhum?
You're running away from God.
He's calling you to hisministry.
Don't be afraid to trust him.
One day, if you obey him, thiswork, this ministry, will take
(05:51):
you outside Mali, 1989.
President Bryan, I'm speakingto you right here, not in Mali,
but outside Mali.
What the Lord said to methrough this man is what I'm
living today.
Brian Stiller (06:07):
So what was the next stage?
So you're finishing high school.
You want to avoid poverty,that's right.
What decisions do you make andwhere do you go?
Nouhoum Coulibaly (06:17):
Then that's where I would pick up from the
story of my healing through theprayer of Nuhum.
As soon as he said you'rerunning away from God, I said
you know what, you obey him andyou will see what happens.
That's when I said God, Isurrender to you.
Up to that point I had made itlike a Jonah running away from
God to another direction,knowing very well that you know
(06:39):
what this call was there.
When this man said, no, youjust go there.
I said okay, god, I need onething I would like to study
learn English.
Mali is a French-speakingcountry because we're colonized
by France.
I said if you want me to dothis ministry, help me to
acquire the English language inMali so that one day I can go to
(07:00):
study in a Bible school in theEnglish language.
Three months later I was inteacher college.
They sent me to do geographyand history, but knowing that
this call is real, I went to myschool, led by Muslim in general
.
This is a university publicschool.
In my application I told them Ineed the English language
(07:22):
because one day I would like tostudy God's Word in English.
I was supposed to write a testto shift from geography to
English.
They let me go for the writingtest.
And this is where I finished mystudies three years later, four
years later, I mean, and youknow what?
After that, four jobs werethrown at me, at a time when
(07:43):
many of my fellow students werebegging for jobs all over the
place.
But you know what?
Satan has a way of humor,trying to trap me again.
Hey, here's a job for you.
I said no, and you know what?
That's how I joined Campus forChrist.
I said, lord, money or notmoney, the most important thing
(08:04):
for me is to be in your will.
And that's how I joined Campusfor Christ in Mali two years,
and after that they sent me toSenegal as a missionary.
Brian Stiller (08:13):
But the next stage is interesting because you
do the Make the Move out ofAfrica.
Yeah, and that came about in amost remarkable way.
Absolutely Unwrap that for us.
Nouhoum Coulibaly (08:25):
Well, we'll speak up from Senegal.
Now, as I'm in Senegal, Ihappened to be invited by an
American family I met back inMali.
This American family had theirson as a missionary with Campus
for Christ, power to Change, nowin Canada, in Mali.
So I happened to meet themother of this missionary
(08:48):
American missionary in Mali.
Many years later they invitedme to come and visit them in the
US 98, I went to the US, spentone month there and then I said
you know what, god?
I think it's about time for meto pick up my vision that you
gave me to study your world inthe English language, and I
(09:10):
thought it would be in the US.
It did not happen.
In the end, as I'm in Senegal, ashort mission team came from
Canada to Senegal, among whomwas a young lady called Darlene
McLean.
She happened to graduate fromTyndale.
I didn't know, and then one dayI had invited Darlene and the
(09:33):
leadership that she was on tocome and have supper lunch with
me at home, and it was duringthat time.
As they asked me we know youfrom Mali, what's next for you?
I said no, I have been prayingto go to study God, we're in an
English-speaking country.
She said do you know Tyndale?
I said no, I never heard of it.
She said it's in Toronto, inCanada.
(09:53):
When I go back to Canada, I'llsend you the information kit
about it.
That's what she did.
And we start going from there.
So, and we start going fromthere.
So you applied.
And what happened?
I applied, and when I read theline of the financial commitment
to say I can pay for my tuition, president Bryant, I couldn't
(10:15):
sign it.
I said I don't have it.
By faith.
I sent it there, knowing Ididn't fill that part.
Guess what.
Two months later, tyndalereplied back to me.
I remember receiving the mailfrom Tyndale on January 8, 2001.
When I opened up, I wastrembling.
Like this they said , yousatisfy all the requirements
(10:37):
except one thing Tell us howyou're going to finance your
studies.
Your case is not closed.
Your application form is stillopen.
As soon as you give us proofthat you can finance studies,
your case is not closed.
Your application form is stillopen.
As soon as you give us proofthat you can finance it, we'll
let you come.
And that's where I say Laurel,what a disappointment.
Brian Stiller (10:54):
Okay, let's move forward to how this resolves.
Nouhoum Coulibaly (10:59):
The solution came from the death of
disappointment, if I can put itthat way, because at that time I
had fasted myself three days.
When I went back to Malito, asa blessing from my parents, I
said Dad, mom, I would like togo to Canada, but the finances
are asking you don't have it, Idon't have it, would you please
(11:20):
give me the blessing?
I fasted and prayed three daysmyself.
My parents fasted and prayedfor 40 days.
This is where I went to mydining room on that day.
I remember three days.
Four days later it was on aSunday morning.
I'd be 20 days later Sundaymorning.
It was really two weeks, Iwould say, of 20 days of
(11:43):
disappointment and struggling.
Two weeks, I'll say, of 20 daysof disappointment and
struggling.
The 28th of January 2001,.
I'm in my dining room with myBible because this
disappointment can take me awayfrom God and His ministry.
I said God, you know what,tyndale or not Tyndale, I'll
remain faithful to you with thesmall knowledge I have, the
ministry you have me.
(12:03):
While I'm going through that,my telephone rang.
For the first time in sevenyears in that country I never
received a phone call on aSunday morning.
Guess what the phone was?
From one of my local pastors no, could you help me?
I said what can I do to helpyou, pastor?
We have many American guests inour church service today.
(12:23):
I notice you understanding thathe is a pastor.
I do.
Would you mind being a touristguide for five Americans who are
attending our church servicetoday?
You would take them to anisland after a service, in the
middle of the Atlantic Ocean inSenegal, where Africans leave
you to give their final goodbye.
(12:44):
I say, pastor, all, all myheart, I'll do it.
Before we went there, this fiveAmerican told me no, let's go
for lunch first.
We went downtown Dakar, thecapital city, having lunch.
One of them asked me yourpastor told me that you're from
Mali.
Tell us about your story.
I went through my long story.
I won't repeat here.
(13:04):
In the end I said I'm prayingto go to study in Canada,
tyndale, and after that I'd liketo come back to do ministry in
Africa, knowing that 20 days agoI have a male that can't go.
But it was not appropriate forme to tell them oh, I need money
.
I didn't.
No, no, no, we just met.
It's not appropriate to do that.
(13:24):
You know what, president Brian?
God is working.
He was working.
He's still working.
One of the quiet gentlemen quietgentleman sitting by my right
hand, one of the five Americans.
He touched on my shoulder Areyou going to Canada?
I said yes, but let me give youa little bit of full story.
20 days ago I received a mailthat I can't go there.
(13:46):
He said why not?
I said I have no money.
He said don't worry, I'll payfor you.
God's faithfulness in his timing, in his way of choosing, was so
overwhelming Because, remember,my parents fasted, prayed for
40 days.
I prayed and fasted three days,not praying to this man but
(14:08):
praying to God.
When he talked to me and saidI'll pay for you.
This is the sentence comingfrom his mouth that I will never
forget.
He said the Lord, jesus Christ,has blessed me in the US.
I would like to share thatblessing with you.
Think about it.
Many business people think Imade money, I work hard, I did
(14:31):
this, I did that.
No, he recognized that whateverblessing he had, whatever form
it is, it came from the Lord,that he wanted to share that
with me.
And I say thank you, lord, toclearly hear from him.
That is not him, it's the Lord.
That will stay with me the restof my life to be thankful to
(14:55):
the Lord and to be grateful tothe Lord for the agent, that he
has been used.
Brian Stiller (15:01):
Now, whom I recall.
When Carl came to visit us atTyndale and I had lunch with him
because I wanted to know hisside of the story.
I heard your side of the storyand I thought maybe you're
pushing it a bit.
So I asked Carl, who was afinancial accountant, and I
asked Carl, is this the normalthing you do Go to another
(15:23):
country and promise you're goingto put out thousands of dollars
to help somebody without doingdue diligence?
He said I'm a due diligence guy, I never do that.
But he said as I sat there thatday I heard the Spirit say to
me help him go.
And it's interesting, as I havefollowed your story from that
(15:45):
point and we'll talk more aboutwhat you learned in coming to
North America and about ministrybut it's interesting to see in
your life how God touchedsomebody who had the ability to
help you and they opened thedoor.
The same thing happened to meyears ago here in Toronto when
(16:09):
God touched the heart of abusinessman who opened a door
for me, for my wife and I, thatforever changed our lives.
I look to this Carl and hiswife as door openers and as
people listen to your story.
One of my hopes is that peoplewill say what doors can I open
(16:29):
to help others?
Yes, you're in thismulticultural city.
How did you feel?
How did your life begin in thisnew setting?
Nouhoum Coulibaly (16:40):
My life began in this new setting with an
open heart, open mind from thecommunity of Tyndale.
I remember very well when Ilanded here in Toronto on
January the 8th 2002, I waswelcomed by the Tyndale student
representative.
I remember her name to this daySarah.
(17:00):
I came out of the bus.
Here is Sarah, downtown Toronto.
I said, wow, sarah gave me acar, no home.
I know you're new in thecountry.
You might be calling yourparents.
Here's a car you can use.
I will ever be thankful to Godfor Tyndale for the way they
smoothly welcomed me and, as Iarrived the same day, carl has
(17:25):
come actually from the US tomeet me here in a hotel for
three days.
Brian Stiller (17:33):
And Carl Carl, he was the one that was sponsoring
you.
Nouhoum Coulibaly (17:36):
Not only he gave me money, but he flew down
to meet me here and he's the onewho brought me to Tyndale for
the first day, put my luggage onthe car.
Pushy has already booked abedroom for me at Tyndale.
As we walk in there Tyndale,the old building of Tyndale, on
Valley Corner Court peoplewelcome me as if they have known
(17:58):
me for centuries.
And, carl, this is the part Inever told you before as we went
in my bedroom, carl put hisjacket on the side and started
making my bed.
President Bryan, that's where Ilost it.
I started to weep like a baby.
This man started to make my bedand I had a neighbor, a
(18:19):
Canadian gentleman named DavidCross.
He was there.
He came and greeted me.
Finally, david Cross becamesomeone who trained me how to
run on the trail and then, as wewalked in the classroom, three
days, four days later, I waswelcomed by everybody as if they
had known me for a long time.
All this to say, the Christiancommunity, the Christian family
(18:44):
at both years, was real for meand that made my time, my
beginning and to this day,smooth in a way that I had never
expected.
Brian Stiller (18:54):
For you, coming into a different world, a world
that's generally made up of aEuropean heritage, did you feel
the racism that many describethey experience?
Nouhoum Coulibaly (19:07):
Yes, so coming from Africa, racism has
always been a real thing.
We have studied and we havelived every day in a certain way
.
But for myself, by God's grace,I never personally experienced
racism myself, as I justdescribed to you the way I was
welcomed by Americans, byCanadians, you know what, and in
(19:29):
the end, my professor of Asian,european, african.
By God's grace, I will say Imight be unaware of it but
personally, openly, neverexperienced it.
You know, the clue for me hasbeen like this you know, when
you go in the book of Genesis,every human being you meet is
(19:54):
created in the image of God,regardless of your skin color,
and to see Christ dying for aJew, a Gentile, everybody, the
big family of God.
Yes, in an imperfect world,you're not going to expect every
Malian to love you.
While I was in Mali, I can tellyou stories of how people hate
(20:16):
me there, but you know what?
I never jumped on the roof.
I thought they were hating mein Mali because I'm black.
The clue I took from that whenI come to Canada, I have some
disagreements with Brian becausehis skin color is different.
Don't jump to the conclusionright away that Brian does not
(20:39):
like me because I'm black.
Give him the benefit of doubt,understanding that you know what
.
Even God himself.
He created this whole world.
There are people, to this day,saying that he does not even
exist.
If, that being said, about thisGod, who has given us
everything, who am I to expectthe anonymity that people will
(21:00):
love me everywhere I go?
This is how I function.
Respect everybody you meet,because he or she is created in
the image of God.
Love everybody with the love ofChrist.
And if people who mightdisagree with you, for whatever
reason, they know what is theirs.
But how do you respond to ityourself?
(21:21):
That's the key.
My response is not everybodyloves you.
You have enough people likeSarah would come to welcome you,
carl would make my bed,professor would welcome me.
These are enough people for meto continue to function and not
to focus on cynicism.
Brian Stiller (21:39):
Nouhoum, your story in Africa, in Mali, comes
out of the missionary enterprise, generally from North America.
So here you are, the product,if you like, of that missionary
enterprise.
There's conversation, of course, about the colonial impact of
missions and the missionalimpact of colonialism, how the
(22:01):
two interrelate.
As you look back on your family, your father, the rise of the
church in Mali, and now yourexperience as you continue to
work in Mali, To what degreedoes that colonial enterprise
affect the way the church isbuilt and is managed and
responds to the needs today?
Nouhoum Coulibaly (22:22):
Thank, you so much.
Thank you so much.
My connection to mission goesback to 1936, when my
great-grandfather, who was achief in our village, commanding
more than 20 villages, one daywelcomed a Canadian couple yes,
(22:45):
true story Mr and Mrs Bell fromCanada.
Yes, true story, mr and MrsBell from Canada.
When Mrs Bell and Mr Bell, mrand Mrs Bell, were looking for a
place to put their missionstation in 1936, my great
grandfather said you know whatthis was?
A time of colonization in Mali.
Mali became independent fromFrance in 1960.
(23:09):
So think about it we becameindependent in 1960, and now
we're talking about 1936.
A Canadian couple, mygreat-grandfather told them.
I heard that you were trying tobuild a mission station in that
village over there.
That village is under mycontrol.
You know, you were colonizers.
(23:31):
When you sit in a village,eventually you take the power
and move to that village.
For the sake of protecting mypower, you had to put your
mission station here in myvillage.
My great-grandfather gave thema plot of land in the village of
Junju.
Mr and Mrs Bell put theirmission station there.
(23:52):
My great-grandfather neveraccepted the law because they
just wanted to protect theirkingdom.
My grandfather never acceptedthe law.
It was one of my great-unclewho was studying in a town
called San, where my parents areliving, now that he accepted
the law, and through whom my ownfather became a Christian.
(24:13):
What I'm trying to say is thisyes, the effect of the
colonization came at a time whenwe're looking at it.
They're taking away our power,whatever power we have.
But in that context, doingmission was never easy for the
evangelical missionaries like Mrand Mrs Bell.
(24:33):
I'll tell you this If you go inmy village today no electricity
, no running water, no internetand to say there was a Canadian
couple living here in 1936, 1936.
You have nothing but gratitudeto that man and his wife for
what they did and endured inMali In their patience.
(24:56):
In the end, my uncle, my father, became a pastor and I just
told you it was through thepreaching of my own father.
I became a Christian.
The whole point is this theyworked with what they had in
their time, many sacrifices, butGod in His faithfulness.
The whole point is this theyworked with what they had in
their time, many sacrifices, butGod in his faithfulness did not
make a vain because I'm here,because they went.
Brian Stiller (25:18):
Now we are here today and your life, your family
, as you've expressed, come outof that missionary encounter.
The church would be veryindigenous, very much a Mali
church, that's it.
But now you're in Canada andyou are a pastor in a Chinese
church here, yeah, so when youbring that mix together, what
(25:42):
does contemporary missions looklike to you?
Nouhoum Coulibaly (25:44):
Yes, Contemporary mission today is
mission from everywhere toeverywhere.
It used to be many years ago.
As I just told you, mr and MrsBell would leave Canada to go to
Mali.
Today I'm a pastor here, god,the church has been growing both
(26:05):
in Mali and here, and I toldyou, I will tell you that you
know people like Mr Bell.
Mrs Bell, they were praying tosee this happening, that one day
we, the national, will betaking our role in the mission
over there and, god willing,overseas.
And I believe that that's whatGod is doing.
(26:25):
And therefore it's gratitude toGod for his faithfulness, how,
in his own movement, he had beenusing this part of the world to
bless this other part of theworld, in the end, to put all of
them together to say you knowwhat we are in the era of
(26:46):
partnership.
Brian Stiller (26:47):
So speak to a pastor, to a church who's
interested in mission but maybecaught in an old paradigm.
What would shape the missionsagenda of a congregation, say in
North America?
How might they see missionsdifferent to what I was raised
in in the 1950s?
Nouhoum Coulibaly (27:08):
Yeah.
So for North America today, myadvice or my suggestion or my
prayer for North Americanchurches, in the context of very
multicultural andmulti-religious context in which
we are today, because ofmulticulturalism and
multi-religious context in NorthAmerica, even in churches we
(27:30):
have a tendency to think youknow what, they have their God
already, don't bother, you don'tneed to do evangelism here,
because you know he's a Muslim,he's a Buddhist, they don't.
Or there, you don't need to gobecause we have a tendency to
believe in that.
In many cases we still believein the uniqueness of Jesus
Christ.
(27:51):
Jesus is still the only one whodied for the sin of the world,
nobody else.
The uniqueness and the love ofChrist, the forgiveness of
Christ, is still unique.
Let our churches, pastors,mission leaders, church leaders
still believe in that, based onthe word of God, and bring that
(28:14):
reality that you know what JesusChrist is still needed and that
the fuel for mission.
So churches, north America yes,we're blessed to have
multiculturalism, to havemulti-faith, but gently,
patiently, lovingly, stillbelieve that Christ is the only.
Brian Stiller (28:34):
Savior.
How, then, does a church engagein missions in a way that
doesn't smack of paternalism butwhat you said earlier operates
within a partnership context?
How do you go about doing that?
What should a church be doingin affecting the mission that
(28:56):
you talked about, but in a waythat is freeing to those that
they work with?
Nouhoum Coulibaly (29:02):
Yeah.
So, as you know, mission isvast, as we say, from everywhere
to everywhere, certainly,individually, collectively, we
can be at the same timeeverywhere this way, prayerfully
, prayerfully understand whatare the areas of the world that
you should be focused on andwhat are some of the areas of
(29:23):
task that is maybe based on yourgiftedness, and build
relationship.
Mission is about relationship.
Build that relationship withthat part of the world and in
that relationship, based on loveand mutual respect, you find
out what are the needed areas.
I'll give you an example.
(29:43):
We have many, many young people.
The church is very young inAfrica because life expectancy
is so low.
In Mali, for example, lifeexpectancy for men is 58.
For women it's 61.
And that's why when you gothere, you'll find the church is
so full of young people.
Between zero and 30 years oldwill be above 80% of the church
(30:06):
and most of them don't have thetraining, will be about 80% of
the church and most of themdon't have the training.
So if you're a North Americanchurch wanting to do mission,
you can go and do teaching.
You can go and help these youngpeople with skill training
trade, carpentry, farming andblend that in the gospel.
(30:26):
So the whole point is, as NorthAmerican church, in the spirit
of partnership, what are,individually and collectively,
your gifted area and what arethe part of the world you think
as a church?
You might say, well, we'll beinterested in Haiti based on
what's happening there.
Oh, we can focus in Mali.
(30:48):
Or other people say, we can befocused on Myanmar.
The whole point is don't try tospread yourself too thin.
And then relationship,relationship.
Now, however, you can buildthat relationship.
In the wake of relationship,you'll be able to spot some of
the needed area that you canfill in in partnership.
(31:09):
So these are some of the ideasI think should be done.
Brian Stiller (31:13):
Let's carry on the story of your own life.
Yes, you go to a Christianmedical community here.
Yes, you meet a white doctor,karen, who had already been to
Mali.
Yes, and you marry her.
Yes, and you now have sixchildren.
Six children and you'repastoring a, and you now have
six children, six children andyou're pastoring a Chinese
church.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
(31:33):
What a combination.
Nouhoum Coulibaly (31:34):
No again.
What reminds me of is this thefamily of God is so real.
I'll take you back to where Imet Christ.
Christ met me.
I told you when I gave my lifeto Jesus I was seven years old.
I love the fancy churchbuilding in which I'm invited to
preach many times in thisbeautiful country, including
(31:56):
Tyndale Chapel.
I came to know the Lord under atree in a small village that
you will barely find on a map onyour world.
Yet Christ's presence underthat tree.
Physically you look at that day.
It's so small there's no placeto go.
And yet in Christ, you'vediscovered that the family of
God is universal families asvast as you can ever imagine and
(32:21):
as high as you can imagine.
And in that vastness andblessing of the family of God,
wow, you can go from a tree toplaces you have never imagined
with Jesus Christ.
Brian Stiller (32:33):
Tell us a bit about what you are doing now in
Mali in education.
Nouhoum Coulibaly (32:38):
This is where we go back to.
So what?
After receiving all thisblessing from the Lord, someone
was running away from poverty,so-called poverty, thinking with
cry, you'll be so poor.
And this is where I want toencourage every young man and
woman to know that you know what.
In Christ, we have everything.
(33:00):
Sometimes our problem is how wedefine wealth.
That can be the trap for us.
What is true wealth?
Is it the money in your bankaccount?
That's what we're counting on.
These are tiny blessings.
The true blessing is in Christand what he can do, that money
and gold and diamond cannot buy.
President Brian, that's what Idiscovered as I was running away
(33:24):
from so-called poverty inChrist, christ, through all this
process, from so-called povertyin Christ, christ, through all
this process, there's a blessing.
There's a poverty that youthink is poverty, but it's more
wealthy than what you canimagine.
And this is where, in the end,I said Lord, as you have blessed
me, what can I give you back?
Not a way to be saved, but togive you thanks.
(33:46):
And one of the first thing wasyou know what?
Help me to build a Christianschool in Mali, where education
is still a needed area.
As Christian, what can we do inthat domain?
What you do, you help themfight against intellectual
poverty, fight against physicalpoverty and hopefully, through
(34:06):
the gospel being preached today,fight against spiritual poverty
.
Today, since 2016 to 2024,today, from kindergarten to
grade nine, we have over 1,200students studying there in the
school, pastor, 20 school Guesswhat?
(34:27):
The vast majority of them areMuslim and they're all thankful
to the Lord for the work we'redoing.
And therefore my Americanfamily, carl and Marcia, who has
really invested in me, thinking, oh, what is next?
I always tell them, I say no,I'm thankful that you know what.
(34:48):
Maybe physically you can't makeit in Africa anymore.
Carl, I met him in Senegal.
I don't ever think because ofterrorism going back and going
on in Mali, it's not safe foranybody to be there.
Even this morning there was aterrorist attack in the capital
city of Bamako.
But I say, in heaven you willbe able to see the scope of the
(35:09):
blessing you have invested in meand it's a challenge for all of
us to let it go, to let Christgive us his blessing, because we
think we'll do better, but whenyou do, you'll be surprised.
Brian Stiller (35:23):
Nouhoum, as you look in your life, you're still
young, with a family.
What do you say to somebodywho's looking for what God has
for them in life?
Nouhoum Coulibaly (35:32):
What I would say is number one.
I call them four C's, four C's,c no letter C, c, a, B, c.
The first C be in Christ.
It was a blessing to give mylife to Jesus when I was seven
years old.
Yes, in the process you willalways have up and down, you
will have your Jonah moment, youwill have your prodigal son
(35:53):
moment, but the love of Christis so huge and powerful, he will
guide you.
The second C be a man or womanof character, the character of
Christ.
I will talk about the fruit ofthe Spirit Love, joy, peace,
gentleness.
Let them be in you.
A man of character is a man orwoman of character.
(36:15):
It's what people can depend on.
God's work and the work in thisworld cannot be done without
being you.
Are you a reliable person?
That's what characters matter.
And then, number three be aperson of, I'll say, competency.
That's where you have todiscover your natural talent
through education, whether it'sformal or informal education.
(36:37):
Through all your educationyou'll find that, oh, I think
I'll be a doctor, I'll be ateacher.
Discover that Now, if those ofyou have never been to school,
through trade we see that inAfrica Many people have never
been to.
And then the last C iscompassion, because I will tell
you this Give me a man or womanof Christ's character,
(36:58):
competency.
It might take a long time, butyou're seeing a man or woman of
success, and I always tellpeople when you're a so-called
successful person, one dangerstill remains.
It's the danger of pride, pride.
You're so proud of yourself.
You know how you fight pride.
Be a servant, and that's wherecompassion comes in, where you
(37:20):
focus on the need of others, asGod used a Darlene, an American
family and many more people tobless me, a darling, an American
family and many more people tobless me.
Therefore, as you succeed, byGod's grace, be the
compassionate person.
As you receive the compassionof Christ in your own life
through people, so Christ,character, competency,
(37:44):
compassion to fight the ego ofyour success.
Brian Stiller (37:48):
Nouhoum, thank you so much for being with us
today.
Nouhoum Coulibaly (37:51):
You're welcome.
God bless you.
Brian Stiller (37:56):
Thank you so much for being with us today.
If you found this valuable,please take a moment to
subscribe and give it a like.
We would appreciate it if youwould share it with your friends
and colleagues as well.
You'll find links in the shownotes of this episode for
anything we've discussed today,and if you haven't signed up yet
(38:17):
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opportunity to join me and meetleaders in many different
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It's also a wonderful way tostay in touch with upcoming
episodes and guests.
Just go to brianstillercom.
Thank you for listening.
Until next time.
Nouhoum Coulibaly (38:40):
Don't miss the next interview.
Brian Stiller (38:42):
Be sure to subscribe to Evangelical 360 on
YouTube.
See you there.
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
My name is Brian Stiller,global Ambassador for the World
Evangelical Alliance and host ofthis new podcast series.
On Evangelical 360, I interviewleaders, writers and
influencers about contemporaryissues which are important to
Christian life around the world.
My hope is that it will notonly be a global meeting place
(00:34):
where faith is explored fromdifferent perspectives, but that
each person listening will comeaway informed, encouraged,
challenged and inspired.
Today, our focus is on missions.
I don't know about you, but Igrew up in a time where the
church defined Christianmissions as sending people
around the world.
(00:55):
That age has changed.
Instead of ascending, often, wenow are the receivers, as
people from Africa and elsewhereland on our shores and, in life
and ministry, becomemissionaries in our own backyard
.
is one such person.
His story is fascinating andseemingly improbable.
(01:17):
A student working in Mali,africa, he was able to travel to
Canada, where his life took ona surprising turn.
I can't wait for you to hearhis amazing story.
, thanks for joining me todayand talking about the way that
(01:40):
God led you out of Africa toNorth America.
An intriguing story.
I happen to be president ofTyndale University, the school
that you arrived at, and yourstory as it unfolded was a
remarkable reminder of how Godmoves in our own lives.
But take us back to Molly.
(02:01):
Tell me a bit about yourchildhood and how you came to
faith and ministry.
Nouhoum Coulibaly (02:06):
Thank you so much, president, Brian.
It's so beautiful to see youagain after so many years.
Yes, my name is Nohum Kulibali.
I was born in the country ofMali, where the famous Timbuktu
is located.
It's a real place.
I was born to a pastoral family.
My dad passed away with theAlliance, my mom helping at home
(02:29):
as a really great woman at home, prayer and cooking.
So Mali is one of the poorestcountries in the world,
financially, economicallyspeaking, and I grew up in that
country and in a pastoral home.
By the time I was growing up,my father ministered mainly in
(02:50):
the countryside farmers.
When he's pastoring, nobodycould read and write, so nobody
had been to school.
So just give you an idea howpoor people were at that time, I
would say financially,physically speaking.
That's the context in which Iwas born and grew up, defined by
(03:10):
poverty.
And yet in that context,amazing thing happened.
And what happened?
What happened was my fatherbeing a preacher, a pastor.
On an Easter day, when I wasseven years old, he preached on
the passion, the resurrection,the death and the resurrection
of Jesus Christ and challengedus to give our lives to Jesus.
(03:33):
Although we had not made thatdecision, I was touched by God's
word by the Spirit.
On that day, after the service,I went to him and said Dad, I
want to give my life to Jesus.
He led me through prayer.
I gave my life to Jesus on thatday.
The same day nighttime I gotbeaten by a viper at home.
When that happened we were allin tears because this was a very
(03:57):
venomous snake.
The problem was again becauseof the poverty.
The nearest health center wasat 12 kilometers.
My father, mother said we haveno money to take you there.
We can only pray for you.
They prayed.
Seven days later I wascompletely healed with the
medicine that started thejourney of prayer and the
(04:22):
spiritual wealth in a financialpoverty context.
And then, because of that, youknow, I was in grade one at that
time, continued my educationuntil I reached university
college.
In the meantime, in 1985, myparents sent me to a youth camp
organized by the ChristianMission Alliance Church.
(04:43):
There we were challenged to sayyes to Jesus for his mission in
Mali.
Mali being a Muslim country,90% at that time, evangelical
being less than 1%.
They challenged us, the younggeneration, to consider giving
our life to Jesus and for hisministry.
(05:03):
I said, lord, I would like todo that one day for you, three
years later.
I say no because of poverty.
I don't want to end in poverty,like my father not able to buy
shoes for his children.
I can't do that because of alack of shoes, that I got bitten
by a viper at home.
But you know what?
Grade 12, I got insomnia, tookall kinds of medicine.
(05:27):
It didn't work until they sentme to a gentleman called Nuhum,
like my name.
He prayed for me for healing.
As soon as he said amen, hesaid you know what, nuhum?
You're running away from God.
He's calling you to hisministry.
Don't be afraid to trust him.
One day, if you obey him, thiswork, this ministry, will take
(05:51):
you outside Mali, 1989.
President Bryan, I'm speakingto you right here, not in Mali,
but outside Mali.
What the Lord said to methrough this man is what I'm
living today.
Brian Stiller (06:07):
So what was the next stage?
So you're finishing high school.
You want to avoid poverty,that's right.
What decisions do you make andwhere do you go?
Nouhoum Coulibaly (06:17):
Then that's where I would pick up from the
story of my healing through theprayer of Nuhum.
As soon as he said you'rerunning away from God, I said
you know what, you obey him andyou will see what happens.
That's when I said God, Isurrender to you.
Up to that point I had made itlike a Jonah running away from
God to another direction,knowing very well that you know
(06:39):
what this call was there.
When this man said, no, youjust go there.
I said okay, god, I need onething I would like to study
learn English.
Mali is a French-speakingcountry because we're colonized
by France.
I said if you want me to dothis ministry, help me to
acquire the English language inMali so that one day I can go to
(07:00):
study in a Bible school in theEnglish language.
Three months later I was inteacher college.
They sent me to do geographyand history, but knowing that
this call is real, I went to myschool, led by Muslim in general
.
This is a university publicschool.
In my application I told them Ineed the English language
(07:22):
because one day I would like tostudy God's Word in English.
I was supposed to write a testto shift from geography to
English.
They let me go for the writingtest.
And this is where I finished mystudies three years later, four
years later, I mean, and youknow what?
After that, four jobs werethrown at me, at a time when
(07:43):
many of my fellow students werebegging for jobs all over the
place.
But you know what?
Satan has a way of humor,trying to trap me again.
Hey, here's a job for you.
I said no, and you know what?
That's how I joined Campus forChrist.
I said, lord, money or notmoney, the most important thing
(08:04):
for me is to be in your will.
And that's how I joined Campusfor Christ in Mali two years,
and after that they sent me toSenegal as a missionary.
Brian Stiller (08:13):
But the next stage is interesting because you
do the Make the Move out ofAfrica.
Yeah, and that came about in amost remarkable way.
Absolutely Unwrap that for us.
Nouhoum Coulibaly (08:25):
Well, we'll speak up from Senegal.
Now, as I'm in Senegal, Ihappened to be invited by an
American family I met back inMali.
This American family had theirson as a missionary with Campus
for Christ, power to Change, nowin Canada, in Mali.
So I happened to meet themother of this missionary
(08:48):
American missionary in Mali.
Many years later they invitedme to come and visit them in the
US 98, I went to the US, spentone month there and then I said
you know what, god?
I think it's about time for meto pick up my vision that you
gave me to study your world inthe English language, and I
(09:10):
thought it would be in the US.
It did not happen.
In the end, as I'm in Senegal, ashort mission team came from
Canada to Senegal, among whomwas a young lady called Darlene
McLean.
She happened to graduate fromTyndale.
I didn't know, and then one dayI had invited Darlene and the
(09:33):
leadership that she was on tocome and have supper lunch with
me at home, and it was duringthat time.
As they asked me we know youfrom Mali, what's next for you?
I said no, I have been prayingto go to study God, we're in an
English-speaking country.
She said do you know Tyndale?
I said no, I never heard of it.
She said it's in Toronto, inCanada.
(09:53):
When I go back to Canada, I'llsend you the information kit
about it.
That's what she did.
And we start going from there.
So, and we start going fromthere.
So you applied.
And what happened?
I applied, and when I read theline of the financial commitment
to say I can pay for my tuition, president Bryant, I couldn't
(10:15):
sign it.
I said I don't have it.
By faith.
I sent it there, knowing Ididn't fill that part.
Guess what.
Two months later, tyndalereplied back to me.
I remember receiving the mailfrom Tyndale on January 8, 2001.
When I opened up, I wastrembling.
Like this they said , yousatisfy all the requirements
(10:37):
except one thing Tell us howyou're going to finance your
studies.
Your case is not closed.
Your application form is stillopen.
As soon as you give us proofthat you can finance studies,
your case is not closed.
Your application form is stillopen.
As soon as you give us proofthat you can finance it, we'll
let you come.
And that's where I say Laurel,what a disappointment.
Brian Stiller (10:54):
Okay, let's move forward to how this resolves.
Nouhoum Coulibaly (10:59):
The solution came from the death of
disappointment, if I can put itthat way, because at that time I
had fasted myself three days.
When I went back to Malito, asa blessing from my parents, I
said Dad, mom, I would like togo to Canada, but the finances
are asking you don't have it, Idon't have it, would you please
(11:20):
give me the blessing?
I fasted and prayed three daysmyself.
My parents fasted and prayedfor 40 days.
This is where I went to mydining room on that day.
I remember three days.
Four days later it was on aSunday morning.
I'd be 20 days later Sundaymorning.
It was really two weeks, Iwould say, of 20 days of
(11:43):
disappointment and struggling.
Two weeks, I'll say, of 20 daysof disappointment and
struggling.
The 28th of January 2001,.
I'm in my dining room with myBible because this
disappointment can take me awayfrom God and His ministry.
I said God, you know what,tyndale or not Tyndale, I'll
remain faithful to you with thesmall knowledge I have, the
ministry you have me.
(12:03):
While I'm going through that,my telephone rang.
For the first time in sevenyears in that country I never
received a phone call on aSunday morning.
Guess what the phone was?
From one of my local pastors no, could you help me?
I said what can I do to helpyou, pastor?
We have many American guests inour church service today.
(12:23):
I notice you understanding thathe is a pastor.
I do.
Would you mind being a touristguide for five Americans who are
attending our church servicetoday?
You would take them to anisland after a service, in the
middle of the Atlantic Ocean inSenegal, where Africans leave
you to give their final goodbye.
(12:44):
I say, pastor, all, all myheart, I'll do it.
Before we went there, this fiveAmerican told me no, let's go
for lunch first.
We went downtown Dakar, thecapital city, having lunch.
One of them asked me yourpastor told me that you're from
Mali.
Tell us about your story.
I went through my long story.
I won't repeat here.
(13:04):
In the end I said I'm prayingto go to study in Canada,
tyndale, and after that I'd liketo come back to do ministry in
Africa, knowing that 20 days agoI have a male that can't go.
But it was not appropriate forme to tell them oh, I need money
.
I didn't.
No, no, no, we just met.
It's not appropriate to do that.
(13:24):
You know what, president Brian?
God is working.
He was working.
He's still working.
One of the quiet gentlemen quietgentleman sitting by my right
hand, one of the five Americans.
He touched on my shoulder Areyou going to Canada?
I said yes, but let me give youa little bit of full story.
20 days ago I received a mailthat I can't go there.
(13:46):
He said why not?
I said I have no money.
He said don't worry, I'll payfor you.
God's faithfulness in his timing, in his way of choosing, was so
overwhelming Because, remember,my parents fasted, prayed for
40 days.
I prayed and fasted three days,not praying to this man but
(14:08):
praying to God.
When he talked to me and saidI'll pay for you.
This is the sentence comingfrom his mouth that I will never
forget.
He said the Lord, jesus Christ,has blessed me in the US.
I would like to share thatblessing with you.
Think about it.
Many business people think Imade money, I work hard, I did
(14:31):
this, I did that.
No, he recognized that whateverblessing he had, whatever form
it is, it came from the Lord,that he wanted to share that
with me.
And I say thank you, lord, toclearly hear from him.
That is not him, it's the Lord.
That will stay with me the restof my life to be thankful to
(14:55):
the Lord and to be grateful tothe Lord for the agent, that he
has been used.
Brian Stiller (15:01):
Now, whom I recall.
When Carl came to visit us atTyndale and I had lunch with him
because I wanted to know hisside of the story.
I heard your side of the storyand I thought maybe you're
pushing it a bit.
So I asked Carl, who was afinancial accountant, and I
asked Carl, is this the normalthing you do Go to another
(15:23):
country and promise you're goingto put out thousands of dollars
to help somebody without doingdue diligence?
He said I'm a due diligence guy, I never do that.
But he said as I sat there thatday I heard the Spirit say to
me help him go.
And it's interesting, as I havefollowed your story from that
(15:45):
point and we'll talk more aboutwhat you learned in coming to
North America and about ministrybut it's interesting to see in
your life how God touchedsomebody who had the ability to
help you and they opened thedoor.
The same thing happened to meyears ago here in Toronto when
(16:09):
God touched the heart of abusinessman who opened a door
for me, for my wife and I, thatforever changed our lives.
I look to this Carl and hiswife as door openers and as
people listen to your story.
One of my hopes is that peoplewill say what doors can I open
(16:29):
to help others?
Yes, you're in thismulticultural city.
How did you feel?
How did your life begin in thisnew setting?
Nouhoum Coulibaly (16:40):
My life began in this new setting with an
open heart, open mind from thecommunity of Tyndale.
I remember very well when Ilanded here in Toronto on
January the 8th 2002, I waswelcomed by the Tyndale student
representative.
I remember her name to this daySarah.
(17:00):
I came out of the bus.
Here is Sarah, downtown Toronto.
I said, wow, sarah gave me acar, no home.
I know you're new in thecountry.
You might be calling yourparents.
Here's a car you can use.
I will ever be thankful to Godfor Tyndale for the way they
smoothly welcomed me and, as Iarrived the same day, carl has
(17:25):
come actually from the US tomeet me here in a hotel for
three days.
Brian Stiller (17:33):
And Carl Carl, he was the one that was sponsoring
you.
Nouhoum Coulibaly (17:36):
Not only he gave me money, but he flew down
to meet me here and he's the onewho brought me to Tyndale for
the first day, put my luggage onthe car.
Pushy has already booked abedroom for me at Tyndale.
As we walk in there Tyndale,the old building of Tyndale, on
Valley Corner Court peoplewelcome me as if they have known
(17:58):
me for centuries.
And, carl, this is the part Inever told you before as we went
in my bedroom, carl put hisjacket on the side and started
making my bed.
President Bryan, that's where Ilost it.
I started to weep like a baby.
This man started to make my bedand I had a neighbor, a
(18:19):
Canadian gentleman named DavidCross.
He was there.
He came and greeted me.
Finally, david Cross becamesomeone who trained me how to
run on the trail and then, as wewalked in the classroom, three
days, four days later, I waswelcomed by everybody as if they
had known me for a long time.
All this to say, the Christiancommunity, the Christian family
(18:44):
at both years, was real for meand that made my time, my
beginning and to this day,smooth in a way that I had never
expected.
Brian Stiller (18:54):
For you, coming into a different world, a world
that's generally made up of aEuropean heritage, did you feel
the racism that many describethey experience?
Nouhoum Coulibaly (19:07):
Yes, so coming from Africa, racism has
always been a real thing.
We have studied and we havelived every day in a certain way
.
But for myself, by God's grace,I never personally experienced
racism myself, as I justdescribed to you the way I was
welcomed by Americans, byCanadians, you know what, and in
(19:29):
the end, my professor of Asian,european, african.
By God's grace, I will say Imight be unaware of it but
personally, openly, neverexperienced it.
You know, the clue for me hasbeen like this you know, when
you go in the book of Genesis,every human being you meet is
(19:54):
created in the image of God,regardless of your skin color,
and to see Christ dying for aJew, a Gentile, everybody, the
big family of God.
Yes, in an imperfect world,you're not going to expect every
Malian to love you.
While I was in Mali, I can tellyou stories of how people hate
(20:16):
me there, but you know what?
I never jumped on the roof.
I thought they were hating mein Mali because I'm black.
The clue I took from that whenI come to Canada, I have some
disagreements with Brian becausehis skin color is different.
Don't jump to the conclusionright away that Brian does not
(20:39):
like me because I'm black.
Give him the benefit of doubt,understanding that you know what
.
Even God himself.
He created this whole world.
There are people, to this day,saying that he does not even
exist.
If, that being said, about thisGod, who has given us
everything, who am I to expectthe anonymity that people will
(21:00):
love me everywhere I go?
This is how I function.
Respect everybody you meet,because he or she is created in
the image of God.
Love everybody with the love ofChrist.
And if people who mightdisagree with you, for whatever
reason, they know what is theirs.
But how do you respond to ityourself?
(21:21):
That's the key.
My response is not everybodyloves you.
You have enough people likeSarah would come to welcome you,
carl would make my bed,professor would welcome me.
These are enough people for meto continue to function and not
to focus on cynicism.
Brian Stiller (21:39):
Nouhoum, your story in Africa, in Mali, comes
out of the missionary enterprise, generally from North America.
So here you are, the product,if you like, of that missionary
enterprise.
There's conversation, of course, about the colonial impact of
missions and the missionalimpact of colonialism, how the
(22:01):
two interrelate.
As you look back on your family, your father, the rise of the
church in Mali, and now yourexperience as you continue to
work in Mali, To what degreedoes that colonial enterprise
affect the way the church isbuilt and is managed and
responds to the needs today?
Nouhoum Coulibaly (22:22):
Thank, you so much.
Thank you so much.
My connection to mission goesback to 1936, when my
great-grandfather, who was achief in our village, commanding
more than 20 villages, one daywelcomed a Canadian couple yes,
(22:45):
true story Mr and Mrs Bell fromCanada.
Yes, true story, mr and MrsBell from Canada.
When Mrs Bell and Mr Bell, mrand Mrs Bell, were looking for a
place to put their missionstation in 1936, my great
grandfather said you know whatthis was?
A time of colonization in Mali.
Mali became independent fromFrance in 1960.
(23:09):
So think about it we becameindependent in 1960, and now
we're talking about 1936.
A Canadian couple, mygreat-grandfather told them.
I heard that you were trying tobuild a mission station in that
village over there.
That village is under mycontrol.
You know, you were colonizers.
(23:31):
When you sit in a village,eventually you take the power
and move to that village.
For the sake of protecting mypower, you had to put your
mission station here in myvillage.
My great-grandfather gave thema plot of land in the village of
Junju.
Mr and Mrs Bell put theirmission station there.
(23:52):
My great-grandfather neveraccepted the law because they
just wanted to protect theirkingdom.
My grandfather never acceptedthe law.
It was one of my great-unclewho was studying in a town
called San, where my parents areliving, now that he accepted
the law, and through whom my ownfather became a Christian.
(24:13):
What I'm trying to say is thisyes, the effect of the
colonization came at a time whenwe're looking at it.
They're taking away our power,whatever power we have.
But in that context, doingmission was never easy for the
evangelical missionaries like Mrand Mrs Bell.
(24:33):
I'll tell you this If you go inmy village today no electricity
, no running water, no internetand to say there was a Canadian
couple living here in 1936, 1936.
You have nothing but gratitudeto that man and his wife for
what they did and endured inMali In their patience.
(24:56):
In the end, my uncle, my father, became a pastor and I just
told you it was through thepreaching of my own father.
I became a Christian.
The whole point is this theyworked with what they had in
their time, many sacrifices, butGod in His faithfulness.
The whole point is this theyworked with what they had in
their time, many sacrifices, butGod in his faithfulness did not
make a vain because I'm here,because they went.
Brian Stiller (25:18):
Now we are here today and your life, your family
, as you've expressed, come outof that missionary encounter.
The church would be veryindigenous, very much a Mali
church, that's it.
But now you're in Canada andyou are a pastor in a Chinese
church here, yeah, so when youbring that mix together, what
(25:42):
does contemporary missions looklike to you?
Nouhoum Coulibaly (25:44):
Yes, Contemporary mission today is
mission from everywhere toeverywhere.
It used to be many years ago.
As I just told you, mr and MrsBell would leave Canada to go to
Mali.
Today I'm a pastor here, god,the church has been growing both
(26:05):
in Mali and here, and I toldyou, I will tell you that you
know people like Mr Bell.
Mrs Bell, they were praying tosee this happening, that one day
we, the national, will betaking our role in the mission
over there and, god willing,overseas.
And I believe that that's whatGod is doing.
(26:25):
And therefore it's gratitude toGod for his faithfulness, how,
in his own movement, he had beenusing this part of the world to
bless this other part of theworld, in the end, to put all of
them together to say you knowwhat we are in the era of
(26:46):
partnership.
Brian Stiller (26:47):
So speak to a pastor, to a church who's
interested in mission but maybecaught in an old paradigm.
What would shape the missionsagenda of a congregation, say in
North America?
How might they see missionsdifferent to what I was raised
in in the 1950s?
Nouhoum Coulibaly (27:08):
Yeah.
So for North America today, myadvice or my suggestion or my
prayer for North Americanchurches, in the context of very
multicultural andmulti-religious context in which
we are today, because ofmulticulturalism and
multi-religious context in NorthAmerica, even in churches we
(27:30):
have a tendency to think youknow what, they have their God
already, don't bother, you don'tneed to do evangelism here,
because you know he's a Muslim,he's a Buddhist, they don't.
Or there, you don't need to gobecause we have a tendency to
believe in that.
In many cases we still believein the uniqueness of Jesus
Christ.
(27:51):
Jesus is still the only one whodied for the sin of the world,
nobody else.
The uniqueness and the love ofChrist, the forgiveness of
Christ, is still unique.
Let our churches, pastors,mission leaders, church leaders
still believe in that, based onthe word of God, and bring that
(28:14):
reality that you know what JesusChrist is still needed and that
the fuel for mission.
So churches, north America yes,we're blessed to have
multiculturalism, to havemulti-faith, but gently,
patiently, lovingly, stillbelieve that Christ is the only.
Brian Stiller (28:34):
Savior.
How, then, does a church engagein missions in a way that
doesn't smack of paternalism butwhat you said earlier operates
within a partnership context?
How do you go about doing that?
What should a church be doingin affecting the mission that
(28:56):
you talked about, but in a waythat is freeing to those that
they work with?
Nouhoum Coulibaly (29:02):
Yeah.
So, as you know, mission isvast, as we say, from everywhere
to everywhere, certainly,individually, collectively, we
can be at the same timeeverywhere this way, prayerfully
, prayerfully understand whatare the areas of the world that
you should be focused on andwhat are some of the areas of
(29:23):
task that is maybe based on yourgiftedness, and build
relationship.
Mission is about relationship.
Build that relationship withthat part of the world and in
that relationship, based on loveand mutual respect, you find
out what are the needed areas.
I'll give you an example.
(29:43):
We have many, many young people.
The church is very young inAfrica because life expectancy
is so low.
In Mali, for example, lifeexpectancy for men is 58.
For women it's 61.
And that's why when you gothere, you'll find the church is
so full of young people.
Between zero and 30 years oldwill be above 80% of the church
(30:06):
and most of them don't have thetraining, will be about 80% of
the church and most of themdon't have the training.
So if you're a North Americanchurch wanting to do mission,
you can go and do teaching.
You can go and help these youngpeople with skill training
trade, carpentry, farming andblend that in the gospel.
(30:26):
So the whole point is, as NorthAmerican church, in the spirit
of partnership, what are,individually and collectively,
your gifted area and what arethe part of the world you think
as a church?
You might say, well, we'll beinterested in Haiti based on
what's happening there.
Oh, we can focus in Mali.
(30:48):
Or other people say, we can befocused on Myanmar.
The whole point is don't try tospread yourself too thin.
And then relationship,relationship.
Now, however, you can buildthat relationship.
In the wake of relationship,you'll be able to spot some of
the needed area that you canfill in in partnership.
(31:09):
So these are some of the ideasI think should be done.
Brian Stiller (31:13):
Let's carry on the story of your own life.
Yes, you go to a Christianmedical community here.
Yes, you meet a white doctor,karen, who had already been to
Mali.
Yes, and you marry her.
Yes, and you now have sixchildren.
Six children and you'repastoring a, and you now have
six children, six children andyou're pastoring a Chinese
church.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
(31:33):
What a combination.
Nouhoum Coulibaly (31:34):
No again.
What reminds me of is this thefamily of God is so real.
I'll take you back to where Imet Christ.
Christ met me.
I told you when I gave my lifeto Jesus I was seven years old.
I love the fancy churchbuilding in which I'm invited to
preach many times in thisbeautiful country, including
(31:56):
Tyndale Chapel.
I came to know the Lord under atree in a small village that
you will barely find on a map onyour world.
Yet Christ's presence underthat tree.
Physically you look at that day.
It's so small there's no placeto go.
And yet in Christ, you'vediscovered that the family of
God is universal families asvast as you can ever imagine and
(32:21):
as high as you can imagine.
And in that vastness andblessing of the family of God,
wow, you can go from a tree toplaces you have never imagined
with Jesus Christ.
Brian Stiller (32:33):
Tell us a bit about what you are doing now in
Mali in education.
Nouhoum Coulibaly (32:38):
This is where we go back to.
So what?
After receiving all thisblessing from the Lord, someone
was running away from poverty,so-called poverty, thinking with
cry, you'll be so poor.
And this is where I want toencourage every young man and
woman to know that you know what.
In Christ, we have everything.
(33:00):
Sometimes our problem is how wedefine wealth.
That can be the trap for us.
What is true wealth?
Is it the money in your bankaccount?
That's what we're counting on.
These are tiny blessings.
The true blessing is in Christand what he can do, that money
and gold and diamond cannot buy.
President Brian, that's what Idiscovered as I was running away
(33:24):
from so-called poverty inChrist, christ, through all this
process, from so-called povertyin Christ, christ, through all
this process, there's a blessing.
There's a poverty that youthink is poverty, but it's more
wealthy than what you canimagine.
And this is where, in the end,I said Lord, as you have blessed
me, what can I give you back?
Not a way to be saved, but togive you thanks.
(33:46):
And one of the first thing wasyou know what?
Help me to build a Christianschool in Mali, where education
is still a needed area.
As Christian, what can we do inthat domain?
What you do, you help themfight against intellectual
poverty, fight against physicalpoverty and hopefully, through
(34:06):
the gospel being preached today,fight against spiritual poverty
.
Today, since 2016 to 2024,today, from kindergarten to
grade nine, we have over 1,200students studying there in the
school, pastor, 20 school Guesswhat?
(34:27):
The vast majority of them areMuslim and they're all thankful
to the Lord for the work we'redoing.
And therefore my Americanfamily, carl and Marcia, who has
really invested in me, thinking, oh, what is next?
I always tell them, I say no,I'm thankful that you know what.
(34:48):
Maybe physically you can't makeit in Africa anymore.
Carl, I met him in Senegal.
I don't ever think because ofterrorism going back and going
on in Mali, it's not safe foranybody to be there.
Even this morning there was aterrorist attack in the capital
city of Bamako.
But I say, in heaven you willbe able to see the scope of the
(35:09):
blessing you have invested in meand it's a challenge for all of
us to let it go, to let Christgive us his blessing, because we
think we'll do better, but whenyou do, you'll be surprised.
Brian Stiller (35:23):
Nouhoum, as you look in your life, you're still
young, with a family.
What do you say to somebodywho's looking for what God has
for them in life?
Nouhoum Coulibaly (35:32):
What I would say is number one.
I call them four C's, four C's,c no letter C, c, a, B, c.
The first C be in Christ.
It was a blessing to give mylife to Jesus when I was seven
years old.
Yes, in the process you willalways have up and down, you
will have your Jonah moment, youwill have your prodigal son
(35:53):
moment, but the love of Christis so huge and powerful, he will
guide you.
The second C be a man or womanof character, the character of
Christ.
I will talk about the fruit ofthe Spirit Love, joy, peace,
gentleness.
Let them be in you.
A man of character is a man orwoman of character.
(36:15):
It's what people can depend on.
God's work and the work in thisworld cannot be done without
being you.
Are you a reliable person?
That's what characters matter.
And then, number three be aperson of, I'll say, competency.
That's where you have todiscover your natural talent
through education, whether it'sformal or informal education.
(36:37):
Through all your educationyou'll find that, oh, I think
I'll be a doctor, I'll be ateacher.
Discover that Now, if those ofyou have never been to school,
through trade we see that inAfrica Many people have never
been to.
And then the last C iscompassion, because I will tell
you this Give me a man or womanof Christ's character,
(36:58):
competency.
It might take a long time, butyou're seeing a man or woman of
success, and I always tellpeople when you're a so-called
successful person, one dangerstill remains.
It's the danger of pride, pride.
You're so proud of yourself.
You know how you fight pride.
Be a servant, and that's wherecompassion comes in, where you
(37:20):
focus on the need of others, asGod used a Darlene, an American
family and many more people tobless me, a darling, an American
family and many more people tobless me.
Therefore, as you succeed, byGod's grace, be the
compassionate person.
As you receive the compassionof Christ in your own life
through people, so Christ,character, competency,
(37:44):
compassion to fight the ego ofyour success.
Brian Stiller (37:48):
Nouhoum, thank you so much for being with us
today.
Nouhoum Coulibaly (37:51):
You're welcome.
God bless you.
Brian Stiller (37:56):
Thank you so much for being with us today.
If you found this valuable,please take a moment to
subscribe and give it a like.
We would appreciate it if youwould share it with your friends
and colleagues as well.
You'll find links in the shownotes of this episode for
anything we've discussed today,and if you haven't signed up yet
(38:17):
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It's also a wonderful way tostay in touch with upcoming
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Just go to brianstillercom.
Thank you for listening.
Until next time.
Nouhoum Coulibaly (38:40):
Don't miss the next interview.
Brian Stiller (38:42):
Be sure to subscribe to Evangelical 360 on
YouTube.
See you there.
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