March 24, 2025 • 28 mins
What lights your fire? This might be the most important question in discovering your divine purpose, according to Jim Cantelon, whose remarkable faith journey has taken him from youth pastor to church planter in Jerusalem to founder of an international NGO serving orphans and widows.
In this profound conversation with Brian Stiller, Cantelon reveals a refreshingly practical approach to discerning God's will. Rather than waiting for perfect clarity or divine roadmaps, he advocates recognizing what you're naturally good at and taking faithful action. "The will of God will and should flow seamlessly through your life and never be something that challenges you to be what you're not," Cantelon explains, dismantling the perfectionism that often paralyzes believers.
Through vivid storytelling, Cantelon shares how his ministries emerged not from strategic planning but from faithful response to divine prompting—what he describes as visceral, sometimes irrational nudges from God. His nautical metaphor perfectly captures this philosophy: many Christians keep their "ships" docked, loading them with contingencies while waiting for perfect direction, but "God can make a midcourse correction for a moving vessel but can do nothing with a ship that remains docked."
Particularly moving is Cantelon's account of founding WOW (Working for Orphans and Widows), sparked by encountering devastating poverty while pastoring a wealthy church. This organization has since helped hundreds of thousands affected by HIV/AIDS in Africa and India, transforming entire communities. Now at 77, while peers have long retired, Cantelon continues active ministry with "the biggest horizon I've ever had in my life."
Whether you're questioning your purpose, considering ministry, or seeking fresh direction in retirement years, this episode offers wisdom that liberates from analysis-paralysis and inspires faithful action today. Subscribe to Evangelical 360 for more conversations that explore contemporary issues impacting Christian life worldwide.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brian Stiller (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
My name is Brian Stiller,global Ambassador for the World
Evangelical Alliance and host ofthis new podcast series.
On Evangelical 360, I interviewleaders, writers and
influencers about contemporaryissues which are impacting
Christian life around the world.
My hope is that it will notonly be a global meeting place
(00:32):
where faith is explored fromdifferent perspectives, but that
each person listening will comeaway informed, encouraged,
challenged and inspired.
Have you ever wondered whatGod's will for you is, for your
vocation or calling at yourparticular age or stage in life?
These are questions I've askedmyself over the years and these
(00:54):
are the questions my guest isjoining me to discuss today on
Evangelical 360.
Pastor, author, broadcaster,church planter and founder of an
NGO, Jim Cantelon has wisdom onhow our narrative fits into the
larger story of creation.
If you're interested in makingsense of life's calling and
(01:16):
opportunities, you'll want tolisten in today.
Jim Cantlin, thank you so muchfor joining me today on
Evangelical 360.
, thank you so much for joiningme today on Evangelical 360.
Jim, wonderful to have you onthis podcast Pleasure.
I think I need to disclose toour viewership that we do have a
(01:37):
bit of a history together.
Jim Cantelon (01:40):
Yeah, since you were 10 and I was 5.
That's a lot of years.
Brian Stiller (01:49):
Well, I'm interested today in talking
about how we hear the voice ofGod as we discern what's God's
will for me.
So I look at your life.
We were raised together aspastor's kids in Saskatchewan.
You went to college, became ayouth pastor, a pastor, and then
you did broadcasting.
You became an author.
You planted a church in Israel.
You started an NGO, WOW,working with orphans and widows,
(02:11):
and now you're doing a weeklyBible television program.
Now, how does that evolve?
How did you move from thatearly stage to where you are
today?
Jim Cantelon (02:22):
I think the first thing that is really critical.
You know, formative stages arealways vital, and I remember as
a preacher's kid.
You know I tell people I cut myteeth on a Pentecostal church
pew.
You know I'm hearing my dadpreaching every Sunday.
I'm hearing visitingevangelists, missionaries and so
on, and I had a very powerfulencounter with the Lord when I
(02:42):
was five years of age.
I've always had a very powerfulencounter with the Lord.
When I was five years of age,I've always had a worldview, and
that worldview has seen me, asI've taken it personally, living
a life that has meaning, notjust for now but for the
eternities.
And so I've always lived withthis sense that there's more to
life than just living.
(03:03):
There is investing, as theBible would say, in the kingdom
of heaven, and as a kid I justassumed that's what you did.
And so I've always had a bent,if you will, to vision and to
far horizon and to risk-taking,and that has been consistently
(03:25):
the case for me for the courseof my entire life.
Brian Stiller (03:27):
Now, when you started out, were you
self-conscious of that worldviewas you began, or did that
evolve?
Did that emerge in your life?
Right from the get-go.
Jim Cantelon (03:36):
You know it's interesting.
I mentioned this encounter Ihad with the Lord and you are
very familiar with where ithappened Living Waters Camp in
Watrous, saskatchewan, in achildren's meeting led by a
wonderful woman whose name wasGrace Brown, who was doing a
master's degree at that time atthe University of Saskatchewan,
and she was taking us through achild-sized version of Pilgrim's
(04:00):
Progress.
And after one of these sessionsshe closed the meeting.
I couldn't leave, so I satthere and she came up to me and
said Jimmy, can I help you?
And I started to cry.
I'd never cried like this in mylife before I'm five years of
age.
I said, ms Brown, I need to getsaved.
(04:23):
I mean, what's that mean?
I didn't know what it meant, Ijust knew that there was
something going on in me.
She took me into a little backalcove and prayed with me.
And as she prayed with me, thenshe asked me to pray.
It was the most profound momentof my little life.
She left me wisely and I weptand wept, and wept and finally I
(04:45):
snuck out to the back of thegranary with the grass this high
, sat with my back against thehot clapboards.
I didn't want you to see mewith red eyes and a running nose
and some of our other friendsthere, and so I kind of gathered
myself for about an hour.
I came out and there was nobodythere, but a few adults.
And as I was walking across towhere we were staying, I heard
this young pastor saying Jimmy,jimmy, catlin.
(05:06):
I turned it was a fellow by thename of Bill Cornelius.
He was a pastor in Kenwood,saskatchewan, and he was in
charge of missions for theSaskatchewan district.
He said Jimmy, on Sundayafternoon in the Big Tabernacle,
which was just a shack, we'rehaving our missions meeting.
There are going to be about 500people there.
I'd like you to ask your dad towrite you a five-minute sermon.
(05:29):
You memorize it and then I'mgoing to call you to preach it,
why we should go into all theworld and preach the gospel.
Would you do that?
I said absolutely, I'll do thatand I did it.
What really is fascinating,brian, is that in the course of
about an hour and a half, I hadthis soul-saving encounter with
(05:50):
the Lord and I was called topreach at five years of age.
And so when did it start?
It started then, and I've hadthis driving vision for doing my
part in presenting the gospelto the world ever since.
Brian Stiller (06:07):
Your life story is somewhat dramatic.
It's varied.
You have moved into a number ofareas in your ministry
establishing a church, an NGO,publishing, doing television.
But for someone who has anarrative that doesn't have that
kind of dynamic or explosivequality to it, how do they begin
(06:29):
perceiving what God might beleading them to or to become?
Jim Cantelon (06:35):
I've been asked this question scores of times
over the course of my life as apastor, and I always respond the
same way as I will to you.
Brian Stiller (06:43):
What are you good ?
Jim Cantelon (06:43):
at what am I good at?
I say what are you good at?
Do you have administrativeskills?
Do you have communicationskills?
Do you have an interest inmaking money?
Are you sociable or are you anintrovert?
What are you good at?
What is your makeup?
And so they'll start to tell meknow, tell me.
(07:05):
Responding to those questions,and I said that's where you
start.
You have been invested withyour creator with certain
predispositions and tendenciesand in terms of the will of God
in your life, it will beconsistent with those tendencies
.
It will not be inconsistent.
The will of God will and shouldflow seamlessly through your
(07:27):
life and never be something thatchallenges you to be what
you're not.
And that's where I start.
And in terms of my own life,I've known what I'm good at.
You know from a very early age,and I've just done what I'm
good at.
You know the old adage age andI've just done what I'm good at.
You know the old adage do whatyou love, you'll never work a
(07:48):
day in your life.
I really believe that's true,and so to me the will of God is
no great mystery.
He puts a certain bent in you,a certain tendency in you, a
certain interest, appetite,vision for something, and I say
well be true to that today.
(08:10):
Don't be concerned about whereit's leading, Don't be concerned
about the future and don'texpect that God's going to give
you a roadmap, because he won't.
Faith is an action word.
Faithfulness is certainly anaction word.
Faithfulness is certainly anaction word, and the Lord speaks
to us in what we do, and so youknow, Soren Kierkegaard, the
(08:34):
famous Danish theologianphilosopher, talked about taking
a leap in the dark.
We walk by faith and not bysight.
I've been taking leaps in thedark my whole life, creating
things, passing them on toothers, going back and starting
a square one with something new,as you know.
But in every case, I've had asense that I'm taking a leap in
(08:56):
the dark with the giftings thatI'm aware of that the Lord has
given me.
So I don't get insecure, Idon't get fearful, I just do it.
Brian Stiller (09:05):
But as I listen to you and the will of God
manifest within the personalityof , what about for someone else
who is more timid, more laidback, more unsure of themselves
or the world?
How do they go about looking atwhat God might have for them?
Jim Cantelon (09:27):
Sometimes we just need to stop our compulsion to
do great things for God and justtake stock of what we have now
and what we have been doing tothis point in time.
To me, the clue there will leadyou to the next step.
You know, people get allperfectionist about the will of
(09:49):
god.
They, well, I just want theperfect will of god.
I say well then, I'm so sorryto hear that you'll never have
the perfect will of god becauseyou're not perfect, you're
flawed.
Well, you know I.
So what happens is people theytake more courses, more books,
more studies, more degrees, morethis, more that.
It's like you know.
It's like their life is a shipat the dock and they're loading
(10:12):
that boat with every kind ofcontingency because they want to
do the perfect will of God.
Basically, what they're doingis they're avoiding the issue.
I say get on the ship and getout of the harbor and start
sailing somewhere, and then theycome back to me right away.
But what if I sail in the wrongdirection?
I said good for you.
If you sail in the wrongdirection, god can make a
(10:32):
midcourse correction, but hecan't do a blessed thing with a
ship that's not moving until youtake action.
I mean, what's the Lord gonnado?
Yeah, you're nothing but a frogon a lily pad with his tongue
out hoping an insect will landon it.
It's a total passive position.
So I say, find out what you'regood at, what have you been good
(10:59):
at?
On the basis of that dream, adream, take small steps and get
going and be amazed 10, 15, 20years from now, what the Lord
did with that decision.
Brian Stiller (11:12):
Let's go to Israel.
You were pastor of my familyand you and I not planning.
We ended up in Israel one dayand that was your introduction.
But you went back there and youestablished what is now the
King of Kings, which is thelarge church downtown Jerusalem.
How did that emerge, did you?
Jim Cantelon (11:32):
plan on that?
No, no, no, no.
I was invited to do somebroadcasting in southern Lebanon
in a war zone back in 1981.
And it was a very dangerousthing to do.
I had three little kids and abeautiful wife, but I figured
the Lord wanted me to do it andby the way, how?
do.
I know the Lord wants me to doit.
(11:53):
Gut instinct, the Lord speaksto me in my gut, visceral.
It's super irrational, it's notsomething that's reasonable and
it's definitely not somethingthat comes out of a strategic
plan.
It's not even tactical, it'sjust boom.
And I had this sense when I wasinvited to do some interim
(12:15):
broadcasting in this littlestation in southern Lebanon that
I should do it and that's awhole.
It takes an hour to tell astory.
But that led me eventually to ameeting with the government of
Israel, with the Ministry ofTourism, the Ministry of
Religion, the Ministry ofForeign Affairs, all together
(12:38):
together.
And I came to them with thisconcept that I had come up with
while I was broadcasting insouthern Lebanon, called Kibbutz
Shalom, where I would bringyoung Canadian adults over to
live and work as volunteers inthe Kibbutzim of Israel for two
and three months at a time.
And so I was there to meet withthese government officials.
They knew me from mybroadcasting in southern Lebanon
.
Everybody knew me from that.
They had done the research.
I wasn't aware of this, butthey had done their.
They wasn't aware of this, butthey had done their.
They knew me better than I knewmyself.
(13:01):
So I presented the kibbutzshalom plan to them.
I wanted their endorsement, andthere was a pause.
And then the spokesperson.
Her name was Haya Fisher.
You know, jim, this is a verygood idea, this Kibbutz Shalom,
but you cannot be coordinatingit from Toronto.
You must be living here inYerushalayim.
(13:25):
Pause.
And, by the way, would youconsider planting an?
Brian Stiller (13:36):
international church in Jerusalem with our
blessing.
That's where it began.
Jim Cantelon (13:39):
It was an offer I couldn't refuse.
I had a sense from the Lord inmy gut that this was from him,
and so I said yes, came back toToronto, as you know, and
resigned Cedarview.
And a few months later November1981, we moved to Jerusalem,
not knowing how this wouldhappen.
(14:00):
You know, I had no strategicplan.
I had no.
I didn't have any committeemeetings, you know.
I said now, what should I do?
First I said, since the Lordwants me to do this, we're gonna
go and we're just gonna do it.
You're gonna do what I don'tknow.
I'm gonna show up and I tell,tell people, when it comes to
the will of god, the very firststep is showing up.
(14:21):
You gotta show up here.
Am I send me?
You know, like isaiah in isaiah6.
Um, and one thing led toanother, and I invited wayne and
ann hilston, who pastored thechurch for many years after we
left and still are there, tocome and join us a few years
later and we started with whatwe called Jerusalem Christian
(14:41):
Assembly.
It morphed into King of Kingsand within four months it was
the biggest Protestantevangelical Christian church in
Jerusalem.
And now you've been there.
It's a beautiful, beautifulsituation.
A gorgeous auditorium calledthe Pavilion, very high profile
in Israel.
Everybody trusts King of Kingsand it's all the Lord's work.
(15:03):
And you know I've had a lot ofpastor friends say to me Jim,
why did you ever leave there?
You know, most preachers wouldgive their eye teeth to preach
in Jerusalem once and you'redoing it every week.
And I said, hey, this is hiswork, not mine.
And in the Lord's work you'vegot to know when to start,
you've got to know when to stop.
And in our case I was preparedto spend the next 20 years there
.
The Lord had me six years in.
(15:25):
I had a sense viscerally fromthe Lord that I should work
myself out of a job over thatnext year, which I did.
Handed it over to the Hilsdens.
We trained Jewish believers topastor and today, as you know,
it's a huge story.
It's massive, not just thechurch but the various
ministries the church is doing,and I feel like a grandfather.
Brian Stiller (15:48):
You got into publishing.
Here's one of your latestCantelon's Casual Commentary A
21st century guide to the lifeof Jesus for the internet
generation.
Do you like the cover?
Jesus with an iPad?
Very good, pretty cool, eh.
How did this begin in your life?
Jim Cantelon (16:08):
I was so concerned about the flakes that were
coming through town and I hadmore than my share of them, and
for the first few years, youknow, I tried to be nice to
these people.
And then I had a moment ofrevelation Nice is not a fruit
of the Spirit, hallelujah.
I started asking hard questionsand being tough on some of
these wackos, but it was veryclear to me that people were
(16:29):
woefully uninformed about theprophetic content of Scripture.
And so I did a year-long studyon every prophetic passage in
the Bible and I'm not very goodin Hebrew, but I did it in
Hebrew and I ended up writing abook called Theology for
Non-Theologians, which, by theway, as I speak, is about to be
(16:55):
republished next week.
I've had a lot of requests forit.
It went out of print afterseveral years, but that
introduced me to writing on alarge scale, and since then
until now, including this bookthat you've just shown your
audience I've written, I think,10 books.
I haven't written as many asyou have yet.
Brian Stiller (17:19):
How does that evolve?
Again, we're thinking about howdoes God lead us in life?
You start out as a preacher'skid, you start as a youth pastor
and then you pastor a couple ofchurches.
How does that grow from thosesmall beginnings to today?
Jim Cantelon (17:41):
Through faithfulness, being faithful to
what it is you sense the Lordwants you to do today.
Don't worry about tomorrow.
Even Jesus said that Think notwhat the moral bringeth.
He said Sufficient unto the dayis evil.
You've got enough on your plate.
Just be faithful today.
You've got enough on your plate, just be faithful today.
And it's interestingfaithfulness in the Hebrew
language, emunah, basicallymeans showing up for work.
(18:02):
Just show up for work, day inand day out, seven times out of
ten.
You don't want to show up forwork, but you do.
You just keep doing it.
And as you keep doing it, youkeep growing.
Your capacity expands.
You develop momentum.
You, you, you develop wisdom.
You know, if I have a regret ora failure, a sense of
(18:26):
disappointment, it's that I knewso little, so soon.
I mean, when I think back tosome of the sermons I preached
way back then, I'm embarrassed.
But you know that as I getolder, you know the too soon old
and too late smart.
But as you're faithful and justkeep grinding it out, we're
laborers after all.
You know we're not co-regents,we're laborers with the look
(18:50):
with the Lord and you do thegrunt work he calls you to do.
You develop momentum and onething leads to another.
A lot of young men and womengoing into the ministry.
They want to have everythingsettled now.
They want to have the rightsalary, they want to have the
right benefits, they want tohave this and they want to have
that in order for them to agreeto go to this church or that
(19:11):
ministry.
Whatever my view is, that isall secondary stuff.
What does God want you to do?
And if it means no salary, doit with gratitude, and the Lord,
who owns a cattle in a thousandhills, will not see you
starving.
You've done it, as have I,especially in the early days,
(19:33):
living basically with nothingbut a fiery vision and
faithfulness.
Just doing it, doing it,sticking to it, that's how you
build a life.
Brian Stiller (19:44):
We understand that we live our lives
regardless of what we do.
We are His ministering servants, but there is a particular
calling for pastoral churchleadership that seems to be on
the wane today.
So for younger people who arefinishing their high school or
in the early years of college,or people who are in a
(20:07):
particular vocation and they'rewondering whether this might be
a calling for them, what mightbe those signs that would
indicate to them they shouldthink about particular service
in pastoral ministry?
Jim Cantelon (20:21):
What lights your fire?
Brian Stiller (20:22):
You go back to that again.
What lights your?
Jim Cantelon (20:23):
fire.
What gives you that fire inyour belly?
What ignites energy and daringand risk-taking and courage and
vision.
What does that to you?
You got to start with that,otherwise you end up serving
(20:44):
someone else's vision and youknow, not everyone is called to
be a visionary.
I know that.
I mean, I started out, you know, working as a youth pastor with
a pastor in Montreal who youknow, who knew very well.
I worked with you and you forChrist.
You know, you were my seniorleader, so it wasn't a case of,
(21:05):
you know, doing everything on myown.
I had to learn, I had to bementored, I had to be trained.
Brian Stiller (21:10):
In my eyes, but was vision a part of that?
Like I'm hearing, two thingscome through vision and
risk-taking as importantcomponents.
Jim Cantelon (21:19):
Well, that church that I pastored in Montreal as a
youth pastor paid me 25 bucks aweek.
Even then, kathy and I justnewly married.
We couldn't live in 25 bucks aweek, but I accepted that as
God's call, and so the risk Itook was to take my young wife
to a humble little apartment inMontreal that we paid $110 a
month for and believe that Godwould not only make a way for us
(21:43):
in ministry but also supply ourneeds according to His riches
and glory.
So was vision a part of that.
I had a vision for the harvestfield.
I had a vision for the lost andthis church with its youth
ministry.
You remember what happenedthere?
A little group of 15 people'smeeting in the basement.
I took him out into the localpark where there everybody was
smoking up and doing LSD and allthese hippies during the hippie
(22:06):
generation.
They were all there and I saidwe're gonna sit in the middle of
that park with a guitar, we'regonna sing songs about Jesus and
I'm gonna preach.
Well, they were totally shockedby this, but they did it.
But I took that huge risk andwe got mocked.
And these poor kids, they'dnever faced anything like it in
their life.
But what happened was.
That youth group grew from 15to 150 in a matter of six weeks
(22:30):
and many of those kids who cameto the Lord in that park are in
the ministry to this day.
If I hadn't taken the risk if Ididn't have the vision for that,
of course, it wouldn't havehappened.
I wasn't concerned about 25bucks a week.
I was concerned about being inthe sweet spot of God's calling
on my life and I just assumedthat everything else would fall
(22:51):
into place.
You know, my dad, who was apastor, when he was going to new
churches, never once asked howmuch he'd be paid.
I pastor, when he was going tonew churches, never once asked
how much he'd be paid.
I asked him about that one day.
I said well, jim, this is thelord's work, not mine, and if he
wants me there, he'll lookafter me.
Brian Stiller (23:04):
Jim, in more recent years recent years I
suppose we're talking aboutdecades, but decades are still
recent years you developed aministry that started in Africa
and now in India, called WOWWorking for Orphans and Widows.
Working for Orphans and Widowshow did that emerge?
Did that come from vision orfrom risk-taking, or was there
(23:25):
an opportunity?
All of the above?
Jim Cantelon (23:27):
I was pastoring a very large church in Vancouver,
broadway Church.
It was one of the biggestchurches in Canada, smack dab in
the middle of the poorestpostal code in all of Vancouver.
Vancouver has great poverty butit looks good.
They hide it well and I wassurrounded by all these
(23:48):
underprivileged homes and justsix blocks from where I sat in
my office I'd walked to EastVancouver, walked the alleyways
and I saw mainly Aboriginal sexworkers, just like skeletons,
all HIV positive, hyperderbicneedles, condoms on the ground
(24:08):
and nearly destroyed me.
And I found little ministriesin East Vancouver that were
trying to help these people andI began to bring them into
Broadway and meet with them oncea month and encourage them and
give them a good meal.
And how can I pray for them?
Anyway, there I am, passingthis very wealthy church in the
midst of this sorrow.
(24:30):
At that point in time I carednothing about HIV and AIDS, but
I knew that I had to care aboutit now.
So I began to research it anddiscovered that HIV and AIDS was
the biggest orphan andwidow-maker in the history of
mankind and the epicenter of itat that time was in
KwaZulu-Natal, which issoutheast South Africa.
Now I had connections in SouthAfrica, because when I was in
(24:56):
Jerusalem, the South AfricanAssemblies of God used to bring
me down to do major conferencesand conventions for them all
across South Africa.
So I knew hundreds of peoplethere.
And so what did I have in myhand?
I had this Connections peoplethere.
And so what did I have in myhand?
I had this Connections.
I had a sense of concern,heartbreak really, for people
(25:17):
dying of HIV.
I've got to do something aboutit.
It's the biggest orphan andwidow maker in history.
God is a father to thefatherless, a defender of widows
.
I've got to do something aboutit.
And so I resigned.
My church formed well, kathy andI lived out of suitcases for
eight months.
I had no income.
I had a 10-year-old car someonegave me.
I went to Africa on a verystrict budget and some of my
(25:38):
ministry colleagues thought thatI'd lost it.
One of them asked me a veryrude question Remember the
Wendy's ad Where's the Beef?
So, jimmy, where's the beef?
So, jimmy, where's the beef?
You know, there you are fineover, but where's the beef?
What are you doing?
And I just say I don't know.
I just have a sense of word.
Wants me to do something aboutorphans and widows impact of HIV
(26:01):
and AIDS, especially those whoare dying.
Now, 25 years later.
As you know, brian, we havedealt with hundreds of thousands
of dying orphans and widows.
When I go over there now I wasjust there a few months ago I
met with 100, 150 young adultswho were all studying various
things, who were little orphanswhen I met them.
(26:21):
Today they're thriving, lovingJesus.
I go into communities ofthousands of people who have
been impacted by our work thereand now in India as well.
But it all began with seeingthose desiccated Aboriginal
women in the alleyways of EastVancouver and I had no sense
(26:44):
then that I'd ever one day behere sitting with you talking
about it, with a great sense ofamazement in my heart that the
Lord has done what he's done.
So now, at my age, while manyof my peers have retired,
sometimes 10 years ago, theylook at me quizzically and say
so, canlon, when are youretiring?
And I said why would I retire,retire?
(27:05):
I have the biggest horizon I'veever had in my life, with Wow,
with television, books,everything's predicated on
health and strength, of course,but I'm just gonna live until I
die, and I know you're the samekind of guy.
So the will of God is just asrelevant for me at 77 years of
(27:28):
age as it was when I was 17.
Only now it's much bigger thanI ever imagined.
Brian Stiller (27:36):
Jim Catlin.
Thank you for being with ustoday.
Pleasure pleasure.
Thank you, brian, jim.
Thanks for helping us see thecontours of God's will as it
relates to our own lives in thegifting and opportunities that
come our way.
We're so grateful that you tooktime to be with us today.
If you have found this valuable, please take a moment to
subscribe and give us a like.
(27:57):
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(28:19):
episodes and guests.
Just go to brianstillercom.
Thank you for listening.
Until next time.
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
My name is Brian Stiller,global Ambassador for the World
Evangelical Alliance and host ofthis new podcast series.
On Evangelical 360, I interviewleaders, writers and
influencers about contemporaryissues which are impacting
Christian life around the world.
My hope is that it will notonly be a global meeting place
(00:32):
where faith is explored fromdifferent perspectives, but that
each person listening will comeaway informed, encouraged,
challenged and inspired.
Have you ever wondered whatGod's will for you is, for your
vocation or calling at yourparticular age or stage in life?
These are questions I've askedmyself over the years and these
(00:54):
are the questions my guest isjoining me to discuss today on
Evangelical 360.
Pastor, author, broadcaster,church planter and founder of an
NGO, Jim Cantelon has wisdom onhow our narrative fits into the
larger story of creation.
If you're interested in makingsense of life's calling and
(01:16):
opportunities, you'll want tolisten in today.
Jim Cantlin, thank you so muchfor joining me today on
Evangelical 360.
, thank you so much for joiningme today on Evangelical 360.
Jim, wonderful to have you onthis podcast Pleasure.
I think I need to disclose toour viewership that we do have a
(01:37):
bit of a history together.
Jim Cantelon (01:40):
Yeah, since you were 10 and I was 5.
That's a lot of years.
Brian Stiller (01:49):
Well, I'm interested today in talking
about how we hear the voice ofGod as we discern what's God's
will for me.
So I look at your life.
We were raised together aspastor's kids in Saskatchewan.
You went to college, became ayouth pastor, a pastor, and then
you did broadcasting.
You became an author.
You planted a church in Israel.
You started an NGO, WOW,working with orphans and widows,
(02:11):
and now you're doing a weeklyBible television program.
Now, how does that evolve?
How did you move from thatearly stage to where you are
today?
Jim Cantelon (02:22):
I think the first thing that is really critical.
You know, formative stages arealways vital, and I remember as
a preacher's kid.
You know I tell people I cut myteeth on a Pentecostal church
pew.
You know I'm hearing my dadpreaching every Sunday.
I'm hearing visitingevangelists, missionaries and so
on, and I had a very powerfulencounter with the Lord when I
(02:42):
was five years of age.
I've always had a very powerfulencounter with the Lord.
When I was five years of age,I've always had a worldview, and
that worldview has seen me, asI've taken it personally, living
a life that has meaning, notjust for now but for the
eternities.
And so I've always lived withthis sense that there's more to
life than just living.
(03:03):
There is investing, as theBible would say, in the kingdom
of heaven, and as a kid I justassumed that's what you did.
And so I've always had a bent,if you will, to vision and to
far horizon and to risk-taking,and that has been consistently
(03:25):
the case for me for the courseof my entire life.
Brian Stiller (03:27):
Now, when you started out, were you
self-conscious of that worldviewas you began, or did that
evolve?
Did that emerge in your life?
Right from the get-go.
Jim Cantelon (03:36):
You know it's interesting.
I mentioned this encounter Ihad with the Lord and you are
very familiar with where ithappened Living Waters Camp in
Watrous, saskatchewan, in achildren's meeting led by a
wonderful woman whose name wasGrace Brown, who was doing a
master's degree at that time atthe University of Saskatchewan,
and she was taking us through achild-sized version of Pilgrim's
(04:00):
Progress.
And after one of these sessionsshe closed the meeting.
I couldn't leave, so I satthere and she came up to me and
said Jimmy, can I help you?
And I started to cry.
I'd never cried like this in mylife before I'm five years of
age.
I said, ms Brown, I need to getsaved.
(04:23):
I mean, what's that mean?
I didn't know what it meant, Ijust knew that there was
something going on in me.
She took me into a little backalcove and prayed with me.
And as she prayed with me, thenshe asked me to pray.
It was the most profound momentof my little life.
She left me wisely and I weptand wept, and wept and finally I
(04:45):
snuck out to the back of thegranary with the grass this high
, sat with my back against thehot clapboards.
I didn't want you to see mewith red eyes and a running nose
and some of our other friendsthere, and so I kind of gathered
myself for about an hour.
I came out and there was nobodythere, but a few adults.
And as I was walking across towhere we were staying, I heard
this young pastor saying Jimmy,jimmy, catlin.
(05:06):
I turned it was a fellow by thename of Bill Cornelius.
He was a pastor in Kenwood,saskatchewan, and he was in
charge of missions for theSaskatchewan district.
He said Jimmy, on Sundayafternoon in the Big Tabernacle,
which was just a shack, we'rehaving our missions meeting.
There are going to be about 500people there.
I'd like you to ask your dad towrite you a five-minute sermon.
(05:29):
You memorize it and then I'mgoing to call you to preach it,
why we should go into all theworld and preach the gospel.
Would you do that?
I said absolutely, I'll do thatand I did it.
What really is fascinating,brian, is that in the course of
about an hour and a half, I hadthis soul-saving encounter with
(05:50):
the Lord and I was called topreach at five years of age.
And so when did it start?
It started then, and I've hadthis driving vision for doing my
part in presenting the gospelto the world ever since.
Brian Stiller (06:07):
Your life story is somewhat dramatic.
It's varied.
You have moved into a number ofareas in your ministry
establishing a church, an NGO,publishing, doing television.
But for someone who has anarrative that doesn't have that
kind of dynamic or explosivequality to it, how do they begin
(06:29):
perceiving what God might beleading them to or to become?
Jim Cantelon (06:35):
I've been asked this question scores of times
over the course of my life as apastor, and I always respond the
same way as I will to you.
Brian Stiller (06:43):
What are you good ?
Jim Cantelon (06:43):
at what am I good at?
I say what are you good at?
Do you have administrativeskills?
Do you have communicationskills?
Do you have an interest inmaking money?
Are you sociable or are you anintrovert?
What are you good at?
What is your makeup?
And so they'll start to tell meknow, tell me.
(07:05):
Responding to those questions,and I said that's where you
start.
You have been invested withyour creator with certain
predispositions and tendenciesand in terms of the will of God
in your life, it will beconsistent with those tendencies
.
It will not be inconsistent.
The will of God will and shouldflow seamlessly through your
(07:27):
life and never be something thatchallenges you to be what
you're not.
And that's where I start.
And in terms of my own life,I've known what I'm good at.
You know from a very early age,and I've just done what I'm
good at.
You know the old adage age andI've just done what I'm good at.
You know the old adage do whatyou love, you'll never work a
(07:48):
day in your life.
I really believe that's true,and so to me the will of God is
no great mystery.
He puts a certain bent in you,a certain tendency in you, a
certain interest, appetite,vision for something, and I say
well be true to that today.
(08:10):
Don't be concerned about whereit's leading, Don't be concerned
about the future and don'texpect that God's going to give
you a roadmap, because he won't.
Faith is an action word.
Faithfulness is certainly anaction word.
Faithfulness is certainly anaction word, and the Lord speaks
to us in what we do, and so youknow, Soren Kierkegaard, the
(08:34):
famous Danish theologianphilosopher, talked about taking
a leap in the dark.
We walk by faith and not bysight.
I've been taking leaps in thedark my whole life, creating
things, passing them on toothers, going back and starting
a square one with something new,as you know.
But in every case, I've had asense that I'm taking a leap in
(08:56):
the dark with the giftings thatI'm aware of that the Lord has
given me.
So I don't get insecure, Idon't get fearful, I just do it.
Brian Stiller (09:05):
But as I listen to you and the will of God
manifest within the personalityof , what about for someone else
who is more timid, more laidback, more unsure of themselves
or the world?
How do they go about looking atwhat God might have for them?
Jim Cantelon (09:27):
Sometimes we just need to stop our compulsion to
do great things for God and justtake stock of what we have now
and what we have been doing tothis point in time.
To me, the clue there will leadyou to the next step.
You know, people get allperfectionist about the will of
(09:49):
god.
They, well, I just want theperfect will of god.
I say well then, I'm so sorryto hear that you'll never have
the perfect will of god becauseyou're not perfect, you're
flawed.
Well, you know I.
So what happens is people theytake more courses, more books,
more studies, more degrees, morethis, more that.
It's like you know.
It's like their life is a shipat the dock and they're loading
(10:12):
that boat with every kind ofcontingency because they want to
do the perfect will of God.
Basically, what they're doingis they're avoiding the issue.
I say get on the ship and getout of the harbor and start
sailing somewhere, and then theycome back to me right away.
But what if I sail in the wrongdirection?
I said good for you.
If you sail in the wrongdirection, god can make a
(10:32):
midcourse correction, but hecan't do a blessed thing with a
ship that's not moving until youtake action.
I mean, what's the Lord gonnado?
Yeah, you're nothing but a frogon a lily pad with his tongue
out hoping an insect will landon it.
It's a total passive position.
So I say, find out what you'regood at, what have you been good
(10:59):
at?
On the basis of that dream, adream, take small steps and get
going and be amazed 10, 15, 20years from now, what the Lord
did with that decision.
Brian Stiller (11:12):
Let's go to Israel.
You were pastor of my familyand you and I not planning.
We ended up in Israel one dayand that was your introduction.
But you went back there and youestablished what is now the
King of Kings, which is thelarge church downtown Jerusalem.
How did that emerge, did you?
Jim Cantelon (11:32):
plan on that?
No, no, no, no.
I was invited to do somebroadcasting in southern Lebanon
in a war zone back in 1981.
And it was a very dangerousthing to do.
I had three little kids and abeautiful wife, but I figured
the Lord wanted me to do it andby the way, how?
do.
I know the Lord wants me to doit.
(11:53):
Gut instinct, the Lord speaksto me in my gut, visceral.
It's super irrational, it's notsomething that's reasonable and
it's definitely not somethingthat comes out of a strategic
plan.
It's not even tactical, it'sjust boom.
And I had this sense when I wasinvited to do some interim
(12:15):
broadcasting in this littlestation in southern Lebanon that
I should do it and that's awhole.
It takes an hour to tell astory.
But that led me eventually to ameeting with the government of
Israel, with the Ministry ofTourism, the Ministry of
Religion, the Ministry ofForeign Affairs, all together
(12:38):
together.
And I came to them with thisconcept that I had come up with
while I was broadcasting insouthern Lebanon, called Kibbutz
Shalom, where I would bringyoung Canadian adults over to
live and work as volunteers inthe Kibbutzim of Israel for two
and three months at a time.
And so I was there to meet withthese government officials.
They knew me from mybroadcasting in southern Lebanon
.
Everybody knew me from that.
They had done the research.
I wasn't aware of this, butthey had done their.
They wasn't aware of this, butthey had done their.
They knew me better than I knewmyself.
(13:01):
So I presented the kibbutzshalom plan to them.
I wanted their endorsement, andthere was a pause.
And then the spokesperson.
Her name was Haya Fisher.
You know, jim, this is a verygood idea, this Kibbutz Shalom,
but you cannot be coordinatingit from Toronto.
You must be living here inYerushalayim.
(13:25):
Pause.
And, by the way, would youconsider planting an?
Brian Stiller (13:36):
international church in Jerusalem with our
blessing.
That's where it began.
Jim Cantelon (13:39):
It was an offer I couldn't refuse.
I had a sense from the Lord inmy gut that this was from him,
and so I said yes, came back toToronto, as you know, and
resigned Cedarview.
And a few months later November1981, we moved to Jerusalem,
not knowing how this wouldhappen.
(14:00):
You know, I had no strategicplan.
I had no.
I didn't have any committeemeetings, you know.
I said now, what should I do?
First I said, since the Lordwants me to do this, we're gonna
go and we're just gonna do it.
You're gonna do what I don'tknow.
I'm gonna show up and I tell,tell people, when it comes to
the will of god, the very firststep is showing up.
(14:21):
You gotta show up here.
Am I send me?
You know, like isaiah in isaiah6.
Um, and one thing led toanother, and I invited wayne and
ann hilston, who pastored thechurch for many years after we
left and still are there, tocome and join us a few years
later and we started with whatwe called Jerusalem Christian
(14:41):
Assembly.
It morphed into King of Kingsand within four months it was
the biggest Protestantevangelical Christian church in
Jerusalem.
And now you've been there.
It's a beautiful, beautifulsituation.
A gorgeous auditorium calledthe Pavilion, very high profile
in Israel.
Everybody trusts King of Kingsand it's all the Lord's work.
(15:03):
And you know I've had a lot ofpastor friends say to me Jim,
why did you ever leave there?
You know, most preachers wouldgive their eye teeth to preach
in Jerusalem once and you'redoing it every week.
And I said, hey, this is hiswork, not mine.
And in the Lord's work you'vegot to know when to start,
you've got to know when to stop.
And in our case I was preparedto spend the next 20 years there
.
The Lord had me six years in.
(15:25):
I had a sense viscerally fromthe Lord that I should work
myself out of a job over thatnext year, which I did.
Handed it over to the Hilsdens.
We trained Jewish believers topastor and today, as you know,
it's a huge story.
It's massive, not just thechurch but the various
ministries the church is doing,and I feel like a grandfather.
Brian Stiller (15:48):
You got into publishing.
Here's one of your latestCantelon's Casual Commentary A
21st century guide to the lifeof Jesus for the internet
generation.
Do you like the cover?
Jesus with an iPad?
Very good, pretty cool, eh.
How did this begin in your life?
Jim Cantelon (16:08):
I was so concerned about the flakes that were
coming through town and I hadmore than my share of them, and
for the first few years, youknow, I tried to be nice to
these people.
And then I had a moment ofrevelation Nice is not a fruit
of the Spirit, hallelujah.
I started asking hard questionsand being tough on some of
these wackos, but it was veryclear to me that people were
(16:29):
woefully uninformed about theprophetic content of Scripture.
And so I did a year-long studyon every prophetic passage in
the Bible and I'm not very goodin Hebrew, but I did it in
Hebrew and I ended up writing abook called Theology for
Non-Theologians, which, by theway, as I speak, is about to be
(16:55):
republished next week.
I've had a lot of requests forit.
It went out of print afterseveral years, but that
introduced me to writing on alarge scale, and since then
until now, including this bookthat you've just shown your
audience I've written, I think,10 books.
I haven't written as many asyou have yet.
Brian Stiller (17:19):
How does that evolve?
Again, we're thinking about howdoes God lead us in life?
You start out as a preacher'skid, you start as a youth pastor
and then you pastor a couple ofchurches.
How does that grow from thosesmall beginnings to today?
Jim Cantelon (17:41):
Through faithfulness, being faithful to
what it is you sense the Lordwants you to do today.
Don't worry about tomorrow.
Even Jesus said that Think notwhat the moral bringeth.
He said Sufficient unto the dayis evil.
You've got enough on your plate.
Just be faithful today.
You've got enough on your plate, just be faithful today.
And it's interestingfaithfulness in the Hebrew
language, emunah, basicallymeans showing up for work.
(18:02):
Just show up for work, day inand day out, seven times out of
ten.
You don't want to show up forwork, but you do.
You just keep doing it.
And as you keep doing it, youkeep growing.
Your capacity expands.
You develop momentum.
You, you, you develop wisdom.
You know, if I have a regret ora failure, a sense of
(18:26):
disappointment, it's that I knewso little, so soon.
I mean, when I think back tosome of the sermons I preached
way back then, I'm embarrassed.
But you know that as I getolder, you know the too soon old
and too late smart.
But as you're faithful and justkeep grinding it out, we're
laborers after all.
You know we're not co-regents,we're laborers with the look
(18:50):
with the Lord and you do thegrunt work he calls you to do.
You develop momentum and onething leads to another.
A lot of young men and womengoing into the ministry.
They want to have everythingsettled now.
They want to have the rightsalary, they want to have the
right benefits, they want tohave this and they want to have
that in order for them to agreeto go to this church or that
(19:11):
ministry.
Whatever my view is, that isall secondary stuff.
What does God want you to do?
And if it means no salary, doit with gratitude, and the Lord,
who owns a cattle in a thousandhills, will not see you
starving.
You've done it, as have I,especially in the early days,
(19:33):
living basically with nothingbut a fiery vision and
faithfulness.
Just doing it, doing it,sticking to it, that's how you
build a life.
Brian Stiller (19:44):
We understand that we live our lives
regardless of what we do.
We are His ministering servants, but there is a particular
calling for pastoral churchleadership that seems to be on
the wane today.
So for younger people who arefinishing their high school or
in the early years of college,or people who are in a
(20:07):
particular vocation and they'rewondering whether this might be
a calling for them, what mightbe those signs that would
indicate to them they shouldthink about particular service
in pastoral ministry?
Jim Cantelon (20:21):
What lights your fire?
Brian Stiller (20:22):
You go back to that again.
What lights your?
Jim Cantelon (20:23):
fire.
What gives you that fire inyour belly?
What ignites energy and daringand risk-taking and courage and
vision.
What does that to you?
You got to start with that,otherwise you end up serving
(20:44):
someone else's vision and youknow, not everyone is called to
be a visionary.
I know that.
I mean, I started out, you know, working as a youth pastor with
a pastor in Montreal who youknow, who knew very well.
I worked with you and you forChrist.
You know, you were my seniorleader, so it wasn't a case of,
(21:05):
you know, doing everything on myown.
I had to learn, I had to bementored, I had to be trained.
Brian Stiller (21:10):
In my eyes, but was vision a part of that?
Like I'm hearing, two thingscome through vision and
risk-taking as importantcomponents.
Jim Cantelon (21:19):
Well, that church that I pastored in Montreal as a
youth pastor paid me 25 bucks aweek.
Even then, kathy and I justnewly married.
We couldn't live in 25 bucks aweek, but I accepted that as
God's call, and so the risk Itook was to take my young wife
to a humble little apartment inMontreal that we paid $110 a
month for and believe that Godwould not only make a way for us
(21:43):
in ministry but also supply ourneeds according to His riches
and glory.
So was vision a part of that.
I had a vision for the harvestfield.
I had a vision for the lost andthis church with its youth
ministry.
You remember what happenedthere?
A little group of 15 people'smeeting in the basement.
I took him out into the localpark where there everybody was
smoking up and doing LSD and allthese hippies during the hippie
(22:06):
generation.
They were all there and I saidwe're gonna sit in the middle of
that park with a guitar, we'regonna sing songs about Jesus and
I'm gonna preach.
Well, they were totally shockedby this, but they did it.
But I took that huge risk andwe got mocked.
And these poor kids, they'dnever faced anything like it in
their life.
But what happened was.
That youth group grew from 15to 150 in a matter of six weeks
(22:30):
and many of those kids who cameto the Lord in that park are in
the ministry to this day.
If I hadn't taken the risk if Ididn't have the vision for that,
of course, it wouldn't havehappened.
I wasn't concerned about 25bucks a week.
I was concerned about being inthe sweet spot of God's calling
on my life and I just assumedthat everything else would fall
(22:51):
into place.
You know, my dad, who was apastor, when he was going to new
churches, never once asked howmuch he'd be paid.
I pastor, when he was going tonew churches, never once asked
how much he'd be paid.
I asked him about that one day.
I said well, jim, this is thelord's work, not mine, and if he
wants me there, he'll lookafter me.
Brian Stiller (23:04):
Jim, in more recent years recent years I
suppose we're talking aboutdecades, but decades are still
recent years you developed aministry that started in Africa
and now in India, called WOWWorking for Orphans and Widows.
Working for Orphans and Widowshow did that emerge?
Did that come from vision orfrom risk-taking, or was there
(23:25):
an opportunity?
All of the above?
Jim Cantelon (23:27):
I was pastoring a very large church in Vancouver,
broadway Church.
It was one of the biggestchurches in Canada, smack dab in
the middle of the poorestpostal code in all of Vancouver.
Vancouver has great poverty butit looks good.
They hide it well and I wassurrounded by all these
(23:48):
underprivileged homes and justsix blocks from where I sat in
my office I'd walked to EastVancouver, walked the alleyways
and I saw mainly Aboriginal sexworkers, just like skeletons,
all HIV positive, hyperderbicneedles, condoms on the ground
(24:08):
and nearly destroyed me.
And I found little ministriesin East Vancouver that were
trying to help these people andI began to bring them into
Broadway and meet with them oncea month and encourage them and
give them a good meal.
And how can I pray for them?
Anyway, there I am, passingthis very wealthy church in the
midst of this sorrow.
(24:30):
At that point in time I carednothing about HIV and AIDS, but
I knew that I had to care aboutit now.
So I began to research it anddiscovered that HIV and AIDS was
the biggest orphan andwidow-maker in the history of
mankind and the epicenter of itat that time was in
KwaZulu-Natal, which issoutheast South Africa.
Now I had connections in SouthAfrica, because when I was in
(24:56):
Jerusalem, the South AfricanAssemblies of God used to bring
me down to do major conferencesand conventions for them all
across South Africa.
So I knew hundreds of peoplethere.
And so what did I have in myhand?
I had this Connections peoplethere.
And so what did I have in myhand?
I had this Connections.
I had a sense of concern,heartbreak really, for people
(25:17):
dying of HIV.
I've got to do something aboutit.
It's the biggest orphan andwidow maker in history.
God is a father to thefatherless, a defender of widows
.
I've got to do something aboutit.
And so I resigned.
My church formed well, kathy andI lived out of suitcases for
eight months.
I had no income.
I had a 10-year-old car someonegave me.
I went to Africa on a verystrict budget and some of my
(25:38):
ministry colleagues thought thatI'd lost it.
One of them asked me a veryrude question Remember the
Wendy's ad Where's the Beef?
So, jimmy, where's the beef?
So, jimmy, where's the beef?
You know, there you are fineover, but where's the beef?
What are you doing?
And I just say I don't know.
I just have a sense of word.
Wants me to do something aboutorphans and widows impact of HIV
(26:01):
and AIDS, especially those whoare dying.
Now, 25 years later.
As you know, brian, we havedealt with hundreds of thousands
of dying orphans and widows.
When I go over there now I wasjust there a few months ago I
met with 100, 150 young adultswho were all studying various
things, who were little orphanswhen I met them.
(26:21):
Today they're thriving, lovingJesus.
I go into communities ofthousands of people who have
been impacted by our work thereand now in India as well.
But it all began with seeingthose desiccated Aboriginal
women in the alleyways of EastVancouver and I had no sense
(26:44):
then that I'd ever one day behere sitting with you talking
about it, with a great sense ofamazement in my heart that the
Lord has done what he's done.
So now, at my age, while manyof my peers have retired,
sometimes 10 years ago, theylook at me quizzically and say
so, canlon, when are youretiring?
And I said why would I retire,retire?
(27:05):
I have the biggest horizon I'veever had in my life, with Wow,
with television, books,everything's predicated on
health and strength, of course,but I'm just gonna live until I
die, and I know you're the samekind of guy.
So the will of God is just asrelevant for me at 77 years of
(27:28):
age as it was when I was 17.
Only now it's much bigger thanI ever imagined.
Brian Stiller (27:36):
Jim Catlin.
Thank you for being with ustoday.
Pleasure pleasure.
Thank you, brian, jim.
Thanks for helping us see thecontours of God's will as it
relates to our own lives in thegifting and opportunities that
come our way.
We're so grateful that you tooktime to be with us today.
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