April 2, 2025 • 42 mins
What does Christian mission look like in today's rapidly changing world? Bill Taylor draws from 60 years of cross-cultural ministry experience to paint a compelling picture of global transformation.
The numbers tell a remarkable story: evangelicals have grown from 90 million in 1960 to over 600 million today. As the former director of the World Evangelical Alliance's Missions Commission, Taylor witnessed this expansion firsthand while helping shape its direction. He vividly recalls how Jim Elliott's martyrdom and famous words—"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose"—sparked his lifelong calling.
Taylor challenges outdated colonial missionary paradigms, describing today's reality as "from everywhere to everywhere." Filipino believers ministering in the UAE, African congregations planting churches in Europe, and Latin American missionaries serving worldwide illustrate this dramatic shift. This changing landscape demands Western Christians reassess their role while maintaining meaningful engagement.
With prophetic insight, Taylor addresses the false dichotomy between humanitarian work and gospel proclamation. Looking to Jesus's ministry, he demonstrates how compassion, justice, proclamation, community-building, and even persecution form an integrated whole. He worries that social media and ideological currents are undermining Christ's uniqueness among younger generations globally.
Taylor's leadership philosophy, detailed in his book "Leading from Below," offers a counterpoint to climb-the-ladder approaches. Through experiences spanning the pre-digital age to today's smartphone-saturated world, he advocates following Jesus's servant path rather than pursuing prominence. For mission-minded believers, he emphasizes the essential role of deepened spirituality to sustain long-term commitment through inevitable challenges.
What will mission look like in the decades ahead? Join this conversation to discover how your story might connect with God's global mission movement.
Learn more with Bill Taylor through his website and Facebook.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brian Stiller (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm your host, Brian Stiller,and I'm pleased to share with
you another conversation withleaders, changemakers and
influencers impacting Christianlife around the world.
We'd love for you to be a partof the podcast.
Share this episode by usinghashtag Evangelical360 and join
(00:30):
on the conversation on YouTube.
My guest today is Bill Taylor,an experienced missionary and
missiologist, whose new bookLeading from Below examines past
and present changes inChristian mission all around the
world.
For many in secular society,the very notion of being a
missionary goes against thecontemporary sensibility to not
(00:53):
bother others with what webelieve.
But, as Bill helps us tounderstand, being on mission is
crucial to the Christian life,is crucial to the Christian life
.
While we must continue to learnfrom and correct past mistakes
and misadventures, the good newsis that there are renewed ways
(01:14):
evangelicals can faithfullyengage in the global mission of
Jesus Christ.
Join me as we learn from BillTaylor.
Bill Taylor, such a joy to haveyou with us today on
Evangelical 360.
Bill Taylor (01:38):
Well, thank you, Brian.
I've looked forward to this fora long time, and you and I go
back decades into our semi-youth, so it's just great to be able
to converse about things thatare still very important to both
of us.
Brian Stiller (01:46):
Bill, we're of the same generation and when I
look at the stats over the 20thcentury, you and I have been
living during a time when atleast the evangelical church has
grown.
Incredibly, the stats are in1960, there were about 90
million and today over 600million, and during that time
(02:08):
you have been leading the majorcommission of missions for the
World Evangelical Alliance.
But during this period of ourlife, what has caused this
enormous explosion of faith andthe activity of missions?
What's been at the heart ofthat?
Bill Taylor (02:26):
Well, I'm honestly not sure.
I would start with mystery.
I can't figure it out.
Some would say well, it's thetriumph of the Western
missionary movement.
Siam sends missionaries to theSudan interior, and then we end
up with SIM, the largestevangelical, second Anglicans in
(02:49):
Nigeria, with a huge missionaryvision and enterprise.
I look at the mission that myparents went out with in 1938,
and then my wife and I went outin that same agency 30 years
later.
Well, in Latin America there'sa denomination.
(03:14):
In Guatemala alone there'sabout 1,500 churches that are
related to this independentchurch-planting evangelistic
movement.
And so I think, in the finalanalysis, it's the triumph of
God, in spite of and I think thescenario today is very
different from my parents, butit's increasingly different from
(03:38):
when Yvonne and I went out.
My wife was only 23 years oldwhen we went to Latin America,
and I'm just saying, honey,forgive me for doing that to you
, but I have been privileged,especially in, well, in my case,
60 years of cross-culturalmission, to see a movement
(03:59):
that's global, and the moreimmigration, the more refugees,
the more migration, the moreglobal it becomes exploded, and
(04:28):
one of the encounters was withJim Elliott and him and his
colleagues being killed in SouthAmerica.
Brian Stiller (04:31):
What was that for you and your wife, beginning as
a missionary enterprise in yourown vocation?
How was that arranged by theSpirit out of the lives and the
death of these missionaries?
Bill Taylor (04:46):
I was a teenage kid in Guatemala and I heard
shortwave radio that these fivemissionaries there was no radio
silence.
And then the next day I findout that they've been massacred.
And then Elizabeth Elliotwrites the first book, through
Gates of Splendor.
And so when my wife and I begandating, we read the Life of Jim
(05:14):
Elliot.
It was one of those crazythings.
We're on a date and we wouldread sections of it.
But here's the thing, and wewould read sections of it.
But here's the thing when I metYvonne and she came from a very
high Episcopalian background inthe city of Dallas her mother
became a believer in her 40s.
(05:34):
Yvonne had come to faiththrough an evangelical neighbor,
but this whole religiosity wasput under wraps for a long time
until she was a junior in highschool.
But she had an encounter withGod somewhere in that pilgrimage
of junior senior year where,with no context, brian as mine,
(05:59):
of a missionary background shesaid I'll do anything, I'll go
anywhere, I'll pay any price.
So when I came into the picture, the prior question was already
resolved with her and she saidI love you, I want to be your
wife, I'll go with you whereveryou go.
And it was reading those booksthat caught us.
(06:25):
Now as I go back and read them,there's a touch of hagiography
in those early books byElizabeth Elliot where the li
that these men had died.
And now I continue researchingElizabeth Eliot's life because
(06:47):
she's a remarkable woman whostill makes people think.
But I think it was Jim Eliot'sphrase.
That was the one sort of slogan.
What is it?
He is no fool who gives what hecannot keep to gain what he
cannot lose.
We thought of putting that onthe inside of our wedding rings,
but it was too long.
But I was raised with slogansgo.
(07:11):
The Great Commission was go.
It was evangelization, it wasproclamation.
And frankly, it wasn't untilI'm a young adult and studying
at Dallas Seminary that Irealized the heart of the Great
Commission is transformationaldiscipleship and going is
assumed.
So in those early years I thinkthat missionary leadership
(07:37):
touched me, biographies touchedme, slogans came and went and
they still have their place.
I'm not living the slogans cameand went and they still have
their place.
I'm not living the slogans.
Brian Stiller (07:49):
It seems that within our generation and the
explosion of missions thathappened in the post-colonial
era, while many would say thatmissions were simply an
outgrowth of colonialism, in ourexperience this passion to go
(08:10):
anywhere was heart and soul tothe notion of mission.
As a missiologist, did we losethat, or is there simply a
different impulse that drivespeople into mission today as
compared to our generation?
Bill Taylor (08:30):
Well, I think it depends on where we live,
because I was just correspondingearlier this morning with a
Latin American missiologistfriend of mine, walter Mullen,
who's also a poet.
He writes sonnets.
But he was a pastor and thenGod brought him into the Comibam
Latin America missionarymovement and then he studied at
(08:52):
All Nations Christian College.
So today I call David amissiologist, but he's only one
of countless numbers of womenand men that are thinking
seriously about what does itmean to be the people of God and
take the message of Jesus intoevery sector of society and
(09:17):
every cultural womb that mightexist?
So when I was being shapedtheologically or missiologically
let's take three years at MoodyBrian I was an immature kid.
When I went to Moody I was 17years old.
(09:37):
My first year I majored in pingpong because I was pretty good
at that.
I have very, very few concretememories because, simply, it
took me at least three years towake up.
And then God took me from Moodyinto the secular universities
and into varsity, brought arobust thinking of evangelism,
(10:02):
and then from there I go toseminary and that's when things
seriously begin to change.
But back then we did not readanything by an African, an Asian
or a Latin Americanmissiologist, because maybe they
weren't there or maybe theydidn't have the mechanisms to
(10:25):
publish.
Samuel Escobar, rené Padilla,emilio Antonio Núñez, pedro
Arana Quiroz were four LatinAmericans who shaped me
missiologically.
But it's harder for them to getpublished and that's why, in my
30 years of the WorldEvangelical Alliance, I purposed
(10:47):
to publish the unpublishedvoices, and if our agenda were
global issues, we wanted globalvoices.
So I think, as I look at ittoday, there are, I mean, in my
mind.
There are, I mean, in my mind.
I see Africans, I see SouthAfricans, asians, latins from
(11:08):
the Caribbean, the South Pacific, middle East, who are making me
think missiologically and mymissiology is much more robust
as well as I think more biblical, because they see differently.
Brian Stiller (11:25):
Bill, historically the mission
movement was really from theWest European, north American to
other parts of the world Africa, latin America, asia and so
forth but today that seems to beturning so that it isn't just
us sending to the rest, but theworld contributing.
(11:49):
How did that come about?
Bill Taylor (11:51):
It's intriguing, brian, and I've thought of this
for many years.
In the beginning it was not sowhen you trace, where did the
apostles go?
Well, we don't know for sure,but tradition and legend says
that.
Well, luke and Mark ended up inwhat would today be Egypt, or
(12:12):
up the Nile.
Paul, we know, it seems that hewent to Spain.
Thomas, it seems very evidentthat he went to India.
So from the beginning there wasthis spreading out.
But when we studied churchhistory it was only the Western
narrative.
So at what point in my life doI discover the Nestorian church
(12:36):
and missionary movement that'sbased out of what today would be
generally Iran and Iraq, wouldbe generally Iran and Iraq, and
they went all the way to China,maybe to Japan.
There were some theologicalissues with the Nestorian
understanding of the person ofChrist, but the missionary story
(13:02):
was taken to the East.
But we did not learn that.
It was Thomas Oden's Africancontribution to global
Christianity that woke me up onthat one.
So I think today my friendsfrom the global South do not
like that phrase from the West.
To the rest.
I'm in this discussion right nowwith my Guatemalan missiologist
, david Ruiz.
(13:23):
Do we use majority world whenwe're talking in Spanish, or do
we use global south?
Well, el mundo de la mayoría.
It's a little bulky, but surglobal is more pithy.
So we're opting for globalsouth.
But that wasn't my decision.
But that wasn't my decision,that was his decision.
(13:44):
So now we would say, fromeverywhere to everywhere and I
think that's the beauty and thegenius and the power of the
triumph of God in Christ to thepower of the Spirit that this
enterprise is truly global andthat means that the Western
(14:09):
missionary movement and churchhas to adjust to that and that's
something that's very much inprogress.
Brian Stiller (14:18):
And how is the Western church adjusting to
other countries that are doingmission work in ours?
So you have missionaries fromAfrica, from Korea, active here,
from the Philippines activehere in our country.
Bill Taylor (14:34):
Yeah, you know the Evangelical Alliance of the UAE.
When you look at thephotographs, nine out of ten of
them are Filipino pastors,because of the vast tens of
thousands of Filipinos that areworking in the service
industries or even in technology.
(14:55):
And so the Philippinemissionary movement, years ago,
began a program to equipinternational contract workers
to be not only good at cleaningand servicing and cooking, but
also how do we share Christ withus.
(15:18):
Home that we stayed, there weretwo Filipino women that had
worked in the Middle East, andthe stories that they told of
living Jesus were justphenomenal.
For example, they get a job,they arrive one, two suitcases.
The first thing they pull outof the suitcase is a picture of
(15:39):
Jesus.
If they're Roman Catholic, it'dprobably be the crucified Jesus
.
If they're evangelical, justsome portrait of Christ or maybe
just a cross.
And so from the very beginning,a seed is embedded to the heart
(16:03):
of your question.
I think a lot of people in theWest, let's say Europe, north
America, australia, new Zealandgets drawn into that package.
I think there are at leastthree possible attitudes.
One, since it's cheaper tosupport a Native missionary,
(16:25):
let's let them do the job, andthen we have a very prominent
Asian leader who speaks aboutnative missionaries and then the
rest of us are colonialmissionaries.
Well, that's a reversediscrimination, adverse
discrimination.
So I hear in the Statesindirectly that pastors will say
(16:49):
well, you know, since thenatives or the nationals are
doing it, let's just focus onshort-term missions.
But what concerns me most inthe United States is the silent
(17:10):
pulpit about God's heart for thewhole world.
And the fact is that thelandscape I mean you in Canada,
you know that very, very wellthe number of refugees or legal
or illegal immigrants.
You know we're facing that inthe United States.
But God has his mysteries onthat one too.
I was speaking at a Spanishchurch in Austin some years ago
(17:30):
and the worship lasted about anhour and a half and I expected
that.
And then I'm introduced and Isay you know, I'd like to know
how many of you came to theUnited States this way.
No, no, this way that we'rejust crossing the bridge or
flying.
It's a code for legal.
So about half of them raisedtheir hands.
(17:53):
I said that means that's therest of you came this way.
So we had a good laugh.
Then I asked how many, when youcame to this country either this
way or this way came to faithin Christ here in this country,
and half of them raised theirhands.
I say you see, you came fleeinga bad marriage or a brutal
(18:17):
husband or a political violenceor the drug gangs or whatever,
but God brought you because hewanted you to come to know Jesus
.
There are now in Austin, Idon't know, there are hundreds
of Hispanic churches, and thenthe outreach to the immigrants
(18:39):
from Bhutan, from Republic ofCongo.
So if the Western nations donot adjust, they're going to
miss out with a phenomenalblessing of God.
What does it mean to partnerwith our sisters and brothers
(18:59):
who are engaged in the sameheart for the people who do not
know Jesus?
Brian Stiller (19:06):
same heart for the people who do not know Jesus
.
Bill, let me go to an issuethat has surfaced over the
centuries and that's the kind ofthe bifurcation of the message.
You and I know that 20thcentury organizations like World
Vision and others they grew outof people who were evangelizing
in other countries, as happenedwith World Vision and others.
(19:26):
They grew out of people whowere evangelizing in other
countries, as happened withWorld Vision in South Korea.
To what degree does missionsend up being humanitarian work
over against being the simpletelling of Jesus or teaching
people the Bible?
How have missions landed inyour view and in your experience
(19:50):
?
Bill Taylor (19:52):
Well, I think we're in a I don't know if the word
crisis, or confusion, oruncertainty, maybe it's all of
those when I was growing up as achild of missionaries, the task
was evangelism, and so theGreat Commission was go, and I
(20:13):
remember memorizing these songsgo, go, go go.
These Western mission entitieswho had that driving vision knew
that hospitals were needed andwere doors to the hearts of
people.
It's the Protestantconversionary movement that was
(20:38):
convinced that languages, theScripture, has to be translated
into languages, and then peopleneed to be taught to read, and
the first book that's publishedis the Bible.
So there's literacy, a wholephalanx of what we would call
today humanitarian interests,but they were essential to the
(21:03):
gospel, essential to the gospel.
Now, early on, the question isis a Christian hospital in
Nigeria a bridge to the gospelor a result of the gospel?
I don't know.
It's both, it's both.
So the criticism that theWestern missionary movement was
not interested in integralmission or in the lives of the
(21:28):
people and their concerns,that's a crock, frankly.
Now, what's happening today,brian, is more subtle, and I
think it is a dangerousbifurcation of young adults
energized by older adults whoknow how to organize structures,
(21:53):
say the task is justice andcompassion, and that's the need,
not gospel and church, need notgospel and church.
The young adult celebrations orcollege student celebrations
that happen at the end of theyear Urbana or the Passion, or
before the International Houseof Prayer, ihop in Kansas City.
(22:17):
They would bring in 10,000,20,000 young adults, but then
there would be one meal wherethey would fast, and that money
is going to go to World Visionin South Africa or Zimbabwe, or
there are HIV aid packages thatwe're going to put together, and
(22:38):
so they fast and they sacrifice.
But is there more?
And I think part of the problem, brian, is that we haven't
learned what Jesus did, or theApostles.
The first miracle is a miracleof healing that leads to the
(22:59):
preaching.
So there you have compassion,justice merged with gospel and
the community of Christ.
And so in my own case, brian, Ihave returned more to Luke,
chapter 4, when Jesus comes fromthe temptation and he's in
(23:21):
Nazareth and he takes up in thesynagogue the scroll and reads
from Isaiah, and I think thatthat is our Lord's great
commission for himself.
And so there you havecompassion, you have justice,
but the good news is preachedand the focus on building the
(23:46):
community of Jesus' followers.
And then there's a fifthcomponent that, frankly, I have
picked up in more recent study,and that's persecution.
So I think, if mission is goingto be what God wants it to be,
yes, we need to be concernedabout issues of compassion and
justice, but don't bifurcate,don't dichotomize.
(24:09):
That's a simplisticreductionism.
But then we need to think aboutthis fifth item, which is now a
global phenomenon, and that'spersecution.
So I think a lot of my youngerfriends are really sold out on
the justice and compassion, butJesus is singular.
(24:34):
There's nobody like him.
I mean, if it's a choicebetween Coca Cola and Pepsi,
well, I will choose Coke becauseCoke is singular.
Is Coke unique?
No, it's not unique.
Is Jesus singular?
Is he just the better of theoptions or is there no one like
him?
He's unique and it's tough toargue the uniqueness of Christ
(24:59):
to a younger generation that'sbeen shaped by a new kind of
religious pluralism and almost afundamentalist secularism.
So I am committed to both.
My wife and I support all fiveof these things because I think
(25:20):
that's what God calls us to doand it's a false dichotomy that
we cannot allow to take theground.
Brian Stiller (25:30):
Bill, you've been involved in missions both as a
missionary yourself, you andyour wife, in Guatemala, and
then you headed up the MissionsCommission of the World
Evangelical Alliance for anumber of years, so you've got a
pretty good panoramic view ofwhere the mission of the church
is today and how we have doneover the last few decades.
(25:53):
So give me your best shot atwhere we are today.
Bill Taylor (25:58):
I think in the West and in the more globalized
social media connectivity aroundthe world which would be, let's
say, in Latin America, it wouldbe the university student world
where TikTok, the very inGuatemala there are I forget if
(26:22):
it's 9 million people and thereare 11 million smartphones, so 2
million have two of them.
When you buy the cheapestsmartphone in Guatemala, it
comes with WhatsApp, it comeswith Facebook, it comes with
TikTok, it comes with TikTok,and WhatsApp is the
(26:45):
communications media really,around the world, but certainly
in Latin America and Africa.
The ideological undermining ofthe uniqueness of Jesus Christ
is a very serious virus that isaffecting our younger
(27:05):
generations around the world,and so that's calling for a new
kind of being the people of Godor a new kind of telling the
story of Jesus lesspropositional, less four
spiritual laws and more a story.
I've been trying to learn newways to talk to people about
(27:29):
Jesus.
I haven't used the fourspiritual laws in God knows how
many years because there arepropositions.
I've tried it in Spanish and itjust doesn't work in narrative
oral cultures With my apologiesto those who have been blessed
by it and I have used it well,but I think that what we're
(27:52):
seeing in Latin America.
Let's take the country ofHonduras or Guatemala.
Honduras is the one that comesto mind.
20 years ago, overwhelmingmajority Roman Catholic 30 years
ago.
Today the Catholics are aminority.
(28:13):
Evangelicals are a majority inthe sociological categories of
surveys of census.
In Costa Rica, the nationalcensus some years ago was very
intriguing because it asked whatreligion are you Roman Catholic
(28:35):
, evangelical, muslim?
Now Islam is coming in orsomething else?
And then they asked what wereyou?
And 10% of the people said I ama former evangelical.
Now that's a very disturbingcategory and what we see in
(28:56):
Latin America, particularly incountries where the evangelical
gospel or churches arenumerically as strong, is as
it's very difficult to find anyimpact on the society.
It's very, very difficult.
If Guatemala is about 46Protestant or evangelical, 46
(29:21):
Roman Catholic, is thereevidence of the power of God to
change the culture?
No, because if the militaryaren't converted and if the top
rich 1% aren't converted, thenation will not change.
So ethics is private, but itdoesn't change the society.
(29:41):
So I think a concern that Ihave from the West is this new
pluralism, or I'm spiritual butnot religious kind of thing.
In some countries of LatinAmerica which I know the most it
would be nominal evangelical.
Ironically, churches, theirgreatest attendance is the
(30:05):
Sunday that serves HolyCommunion, because they don't
want to miss out on the specialbenefits of only that Sunday.
So I'm going to the fifth ComeyBomb Latin America, spain,
portugal Congress of Missions inPanama this end of this next
month and I'm going to belistening.
(30:26):
It's the first of the fourcongresses that I don't have
anything to do, so I'm justgoing to have fun meeting
friends, old friends, sittingtalking but then asking
questions, because I'm going totake that week as a school where
Bill Taylor is going to go backto school to say what's
(30:47):
happening in Latin America.
Mission for 20 years and thenanother 10 as a senior mentor.
When I started, brian, in Juneof 1986, I had no idea what I
was doing.
(31:07):
I had no idea what WorldEvangelical Fellowship at that
time was.
And it's about that time that Imet you and I said, well,
here's an articulate Canadianmore or less my age and I better
sit close to him because heknows what this thing is all
about.
And so I grew like crazy.
(31:27):
But I started as an activistand in 1999, I became a
reflective practitioner and Icame out of that.
Iguazu, brazil.
Consultation on missiology.
For the first time in my life Iself-identified as a
missiologist.
(31:48):
I'd never done that before.
But I'm more a reflectivepractitioner and that's how I
want to read the world.
So I'm concerned globally.
I'm concerned in this country,the United States.
The percentage of evangelicalpopulation, which is defined so
differently, depending if it's aBarna, a Pew study or a federal
(32:13):
government study.
The definitions are different.
I don't know who to believe.
I tend to opt for the lowestpercentage.
I think that's closer to thetruth, not the happy we're
winning percentage.
So I'm concerned.
I'm going to be 85 this yearand I'm deeply concerned and I'm
(32:35):
saying, lord, I don't have avoice, a public voice, to speak.
But my friend David Ruiz, in ameeting a few years ago with
some guys that I was mentoringleaders in Latin America, he
gave a prophetic word to me.
He said, guillermo, bill, hesaid you must change your voice
(33:01):
or your tongue for a pen.
And God's calling on you now isnot to speak but is to write.
Brian Stiller (33:12):
Bill, what would you say to a young Bill Taylor,
a Gen Z today, who is very muchinterested in allowing their
life to be used in the serviceof Christ?
And they have a global interest?
What are the three things youwould suggest they need to
(33:36):
consider as they plan theirfuture?
Bill Taylor (33:39):
There's an event that's happening with Mission
Nexus here in the US and thetitle is Is Gen Z the Future of
Missions?
So what would I say to a Gen Z,bill Taylor, who has this
proclivity, this passion, thistendency?
(33:59):
I would say, bill, I'm going tobe 85 years old, but I want you
to know how much I admire you,how much I respect you because
you're going against the current, because you're going against
the current Number two.
You must deepen yourspirituality, because stuff is
(34:22):
going to happen, especially ifyou stick with this for a longer
term.
And there's a spirituality thatsort of motivates you and gets
you to the field.
And then stuff happens.
Plans don't work out, you havea conflict with leadership,
you're on the brink of being anattrition statistic.
(34:44):
And where in the Sam Hill isGod now?
And that's when that secondlevel of spirituality has to
kick in, which is the call forendurance, and it's to study the
scriptures on suffering.
And then, brian, I thinkthere's a third spirituality
(35:08):
that I'm trying to understand atmy age.
It's the spirituality that Iend up with.
It's the spirituality that Iend up with.
You know, I have a lot ofprayer requests that God hasn't
answered and I can still weepover them, but at the end of the
(35:37):
day it's not my power to bringabout those changes.
It's disappointment with God.
It's in my 50s, in the middleof spirituality, finally
demythologizing in my missionaryfamily.
So I would say to the young BillTaylor you've got to deepen
(35:59):
your spirituality.
You have to go outside of thecommon evangelical sources and
beware of anybody who says ifyou want to be a leader, you can
be good, but here are the stepsto being great.
(36:19):
So I would say, when you arrivein your area of ministry,
realize that you are a learner,but also realize that God has
put you there.
Therefore you have something togive.
I think those are three things,maybe a bit scattered.
One I'm encouraged by you, bill.
Scattered One I'm encouraged byyou, bill.
(36:40):
I'm so glad to know you.
I hope I live till I'm 100 so Ican follow you for 16 years and
pray for you.
And then you've got to work onyour spirituality.
Brian Stiller (36:53):
Bill, I was struck by one of the things that
you had learned out ofleadership.
In your book Leading from Below, you said measure your mentors
by how they model the style ofJesus.
So attach yourself to mentorsand find those who model in
(37:14):
their lives Jesus of theScriptures.
Bill Taylor (37:18):
When my son, david, said the second half of this
bigger book that's for familyonly, a different voice comes
out.
It's the voice of somebody whodid not think he would be a
leader, did not seek leadership,did not ask for it, but it came
to him and he didn't turn itdown.
(37:38):
And then, eventually, itchanged you and then you became
a leader.
But what kind of a leader did Iwant to be?
To be honest, brian, I don'tthink I reflected on that until
the last 10 years, because I'mlooking back on my life.
(38:00):
Leading from below is leadingaccording to the path of Jesus.
Instead of being good to great,good to great, it's following
(38:20):
the path to the cross, and thepeople that have had the deepest
impact on my life are marked bythe wounds of the cross.
Wounds because of their ownfaults and their own mistakes,
wounds brought on by others,wounds from life, wounds from
God.
It pleased the Lord to bruisehis servant, not because the
(38:46):
servant was disobedient, butJesus learned suffering.
And the other thing aboutleading from below is that it's
collegial.
You know, in all my years withthe exception of two years on
the faculty, at TrinityEvangelical Divinity School I've
(39:07):
raised my own support.
I still do.
You know what that's like.
You're sort of at the mercy ofthe generous people of God who
you hope stay with you.
You're sort of at the mercy ofthe generous people of God who
you hope stay with you.
But in all of my leadership Iwas working with people who
could have been defined asentrepreneurs have money, will
travel.
I didn't have to raise theirsupport.
(39:30):
Therefore I did not havehierarchical authority over them
.
It was more here's a dream Ihave.
Can you help me shape it?
How do we need to change thisdream?
(39:50):
And then the question would youjoin me?
And I had the unique gift,brian, and I'm thinking of three
people who said can I join you?
And they became key members ofthe staff team.
I didn't recruit them, but theywere friends who somehow
(40:17):
captured a vision.
Brian Stiller (40:19):
Bill, it's been an enormous pleasure of having
you here today.
We have just touched bits andpieces of this remarkable
autobiographical treatise ofyours called Leading from Below
(40:39):
below, and I would encourage you, my listeners, to find that
book and treat yourself to thelife and the ministry of Bill
Taylor and his family and hisleadership globally.
Bill, thanks again for beingwith us today.
Bill Taylor (40:49):
Well, thank you, brian, for being a friend over
the many, many decades.
You were the first person I sawwith a portable computer and I
remember asking you is that acomputer?
Was it a Toshiba?
I don't know what brand it was,but just to let you know.
(41:09):
There are things that stick inmy mind.
And it was you with thatcomputer.
I think it was in Singapore.
So it's a high honor to knowyou and to be counted as a
friend and a colleague and Iwant you to know that that is
entirely mutual.
Thank you so much for lettingme converse with you.
(41:30):
In Spanish we would say estasideas despeinadas, which in
English means these uncombedideas, just sort of flow.
But it's been a joy, thank you.
I hope we can do this again.
Brian Stiller (41:45):
Thank you, bill, for joining us today and
providing us with a renewedunderstanding of what Christian
mission is and how we can liveit out faithfully today, and
thank you for being a part ofthe podcast.
Be sure to share this episode,use hashtag Evangelical360, and
join in the conversation onYouTube.
(42:06):
If you'd like to learn moreabout today's guest, check out
the show notes for links andinfo, and if you haven't already
received my free e-book andnewsletter, go to
brianstillercom.
Thanks again, until next time.
Bill Taylor (42:26):
Don't miss the next interview.
Be sure to subscribe toEvangelical 360 on YouTube.
See you there.
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm your host, Brian Stiller,and I'm pleased to share with
you another conversation withleaders, changemakers and
influencers impacting Christianlife around the world.
We'd love for you to be a partof the podcast.
Share this episode by usinghashtag Evangelical360 and join
(00:30):
on the conversation on YouTube.
My guest today is Bill Taylor,an experienced missionary and
missiologist, whose new bookLeading from Below examines past
and present changes inChristian mission all around the
world.
For many in secular society,the very notion of being a
missionary goes against thecontemporary sensibility to not
(00:53):
bother others with what webelieve.
But, as Bill helps us tounderstand, being on mission is
crucial to the Christian life,is crucial to the Christian life
.
While we must continue to learnfrom and correct past mistakes
and misadventures, the good newsis that there are renewed ways
(01:14):
evangelicals can faithfullyengage in the global mission of
Jesus Christ.
Join me as we learn from BillTaylor.
Bill Taylor, such a joy to haveyou with us today on
Evangelical 360.
Bill Taylor (01:38):
Well, thank you, Brian.
I've looked forward to this fora long time, and you and I go
back decades into our semi-youth, so it's just great to be able
to converse about things thatare still very important to both
of us.
Brian Stiller (01:46):
Bill, we're of the same generation and when I
look at the stats over the 20thcentury, you and I have been
living during a time when atleast the evangelical church has
grown.
Incredibly, the stats are in1960, there were about 90
million and today over 600million, and during that time
(02:08):
you have been leading the majorcommission of missions for the
World Evangelical Alliance.
But during this period of ourlife, what has caused this
enormous explosion of faith andthe activity of missions?
What's been at the heart ofthat?
Bill Taylor (02:26):
Well, I'm honestly not sure.
I would start with mystery.
I can't figure it out.
Some would say well, it's thetriumph of the Western
missionary movement.
Siam sends missionaries to theSudan interior, and then we end
up with SIM, the largestevangelical, second Anglicans in
(02:49):
Nigeria, with a huge missionaryvision and enterprise.
I look at the mission that myparents went out with in 1938,
and then my wife and I went outin that same agency 30 years
later.
Well, in Latin America there'sa denomination.
(03:14):
In Guatemala alone there'sabout 1,500 churches that are
related to this independentchurch-planting evangelistic
movement.
And so I think, in the finalanalysis, it's the triumph of
God, in spite of and I think thescenario today is very
different from my parents, butit's increasingly different from
(03:38):
when Yvonne and I went out.
My wife was only 23 years oldwhen we went to Latin America,
and I'm just saying, honey,forgive me for doing that to you
, but I have been privileged,especially in, well, in my case,
60 years of cross-culturalmission, to see a movement
(03:59):
that's global, and the moreimmigration, the more refugees,
the more migration, the moreglobal it becomes exploded, and
(04:28):
one of the encounters was withJim Elliott and him and his
colleagues being killed in SouthAmerica.
Brian Stiller (04:31):
What was that for you and your wife, beginning as
a missionary enterprise in yourown vocation?
How was that arranged by theSpirit out of the lives and the
death of these missionaries?
Bill Taylor (04:46):
I was a teenage kid in Guatemala and I heard
shortwave radio that these fivemissionaries there was no radio
silence.
And then the next day I findout that they've been massacred.
And then Elizabeth Elliotwrites the first book, through
Gates of Splendor.
And so when my wife and I begandating, we read the Life of Jim
(05:14):
Elliot.
It was one of those crazythings.
We're on a date and we wouldread sections of it.
But here's the thing, and wewould read sections of it.
But here's the thing when I metYvonne and she came from a very
high Episcopalian background inthe city of Dallas her mother
became a believer in her 40s.
(05:34):
Yvonne had come to faiththrough an evangelical neighbor,
but this whole religiosity wasput under wraps for a long time
until she was a junior in highschool.
But she had an encounter withGod somewhere in that pilgrimage
of junior senior year where,with no context, brian as mine,
(05:59):
of a missionary background shesaid I'll do anything, I'll go
anywhere, I'll pay any price.
So when I came into the picture, the prior question was already
resolved with her and she saidI love you, I want to be your
wife, I'll go with you whereveryou go.
And it was reading those booksthat caught us.
(06:25):
Now as I go back and read them,there's a touch of hagiography
in those early books byElizabeth Elliot where the li
that these men had died.
And now I continue researchingElizabeth Eliot's life because
(06:47):
she's a remarkable woman whostill makes people think.
But I think it was Jim Eliot'sphrase.
That was the one sort of slogan.
What is it?
He is no fool who gives what hecannot keep to gain what he
cannot lose.
We thought of putting that onthe inside of our wedding rings,
but it was too long.
But I was raised with slogansgo.
(07:11):
The Great Commission was go.
It was evangelization, it wasproclamation.
And frankly, it wasn't untilI'm a young adult and studying
at Dallas Seminary that Irealized the heart of the Great
Commission is transformationaldiscipleship and going is
assumed.
So in those early years I thinkthat missionary leadership
(07:37):
touched me, biographies touchedme, slogans came and went and
they still have their place.
I'm not living the slogans cameand went and they still have
their place.
I'm not living the slogans.
Brian Stiller (07:49):
It seems that within our generation and the
explosion of missions thathappened in the post-colonial
era, while many would say thatmissions were simply an
outgrowth of colonialism, in ourexperience this passion to go
(08:10):
anywhere was heart and soul tothe notion of mission.
As a missiologist, did we losethat, or is there simply a
different impulse that drivespeople into mission today as
compared to our generation?
Bill Taylor (08:30):
Well, I think it depends on where we live,
because I was just correspondingearlier this morning with a
Latin American missiologistfriend of mine, walter Mullen,
who's also a poet.
He writes sonnets.
But he was a pastor and thenGod brought him into the Comibam
Latin America missionarymovement and then he studied at
(08:52):
All Nations Christian College.
So today I call David amissiologist, but he's only one
of countless numbers of womenand men that are thinking
seriously about what does itmean to be the people of God and
take the message of Jesus intoevery sector of society and
(09:17):
every cultural womb that mightexist?
So when I was being shapedtheologically or missiologically
let's take three years at MoodyBrian I was an immature kid.
When I went to Moody I was 17years old.
(09:37):
My first year I majored in pingpong because I was pretty good
at that.
I have very, very few concretememories because, simply, it
took me at least three years towake up.
And then God took me from Moodyinto the secular universities
and into varsity, brought arobust thinking of evangelism,
(10:02):
and then from there I go toseminary and that's when things
seriously begin to change.
But back then we did not readanything by an African, an Asian
or a Latin Americanmissiologist, because maybe they
weren't there or maybe theydidn't have the mechanisms to
(10:25):
publish.
Samuel Escobar, rené Padilla,emilio Antonio Núñez, pedro
Arana Quiroz were four LatinAmericans who shaped me
missiologically.
But it's harder for them to getpublished and that's why, in my
30 years of the WorldEvangelical Alliance, I purposed
(10:47):
to publish the unpublishedvoices, and if our agenda were
global issues, we wanted globalvoices.
So I think, as I look at ittoday, there are, I mean, in my
mind.
There are, I mean, in my mind.
I see Africans, I see SouthAfricans, asians, latins from
(11:08):
the Caribbean, the South Pacific, middle East, who are making me
think missiologically and mymissiology is much more robust
as well as I think more biblical, because they see differently.
Brian Stiller (11:25):
Bill, historically the mission
movement was really from theWest European, north American to
other parts of the world Africa, latin America, asia and so
forth but today that seems to beturning so that it isn't just
us sending to the rest, but theworld contributing.
(11:49):
How did that come about?
Bill Taylor (11:51):
It's intriguing, brian, and I've thought of this
for many years.
In the beginning it was not sowhen you trace, where did the
apostles go?
Well, we don't know for sure,but tradition and legend says
that.
Well, luke and Mark ended up inwhat would today be Egypt, or
(12:12):
up the Nile.
Paul, we know, it seems that hewent to Spain.
Thomas, it seems very evidentthat he went to India.
So from the beginning there wasthis spreading out.
But when we studied churchhistory it was only the Western
narrative.
So at what point in my life doI discover the Nestorian church
(12:36):
and missionary movement that'sbased out of what today would be
generally Iran and Iraq, wouldbe generally Iran and Iraq, and
they went all the way to China,maybe to Japan.
There were some theologicalissues with the Nestorian
understanding of the person ofChrist, but the missionary story
(13:02):
was taken to the East.
But we did not learn that.
It was Thomas Oden's Africancontribution to global
Christianity that woke me up onthat one.
So I think today my friendsfrom the global South do not
like that phrase from the West.
To the rest.
I'm in this discussion right nowwith my Guatemalan missiologist
, david Ruiz.
(13:23):
Do we use majority world whenwe're talking in Spanish, or do
we use global south?
Well, el mundo de la mayoría.
It's a little bulky, but surglobal is more pithy.
So we're opting for globalsouth.
But that wasn't my decision.
But that wasn't my decision,that was his decision.
(13:44):
So now we would say, fromeverywhere to everywhere and I
think that's the beauty and thegenius and the power of the
triumph of God in Christ to thepower of the Spirit that this
enterprise is truly global andthat means that the Western
(14:09):
missionary movement and churchhas to adjust to that and that's
something that's very much inprogress.
Brian Stiller (14:18):
And how is the Western church adjusting to
other countries that are doingmission work in ours?
So you have missionaries fromAfrica, from Korea, active here,
from the Philippines activehere in our country.
Bill Taylor (14:34):
Yeah, you know the Evangelical Alliance of the UAE.
When you look at thephotographs, nine out of ten of
them are Filipino pastors,because of the vast tens of
thousands of Filipinos that areworking in the service
industries or even in technology.
(14:55):
And so the Philippinemissionary movement, years ago,
began a program to equipinternational contract workers
to be not only good at cleaningand servicing and cooking, but
also how do we share Christ withus.
(15:18):
Home that we stayed, there weretwo Filipino women that had
worked in the Middle East, andthe stories that they told of
living Jesus were justphenomenal.
For example, they get a job,they arrive one, two suitcases.
The first thing they pull outof the suitcase is a picture of
(15:39):
Jesus.
If they're Roman Catholic, it'dprobably be the crucified Jesus
.
If they're evangelical, justsome portrait of Christ or maybe
just a cross.
And so from the very beginning,a seed is embedded to the heart
(16:03):
of your question.
I think a lot of people in theWest, let's say Europe, north
America, australia, new Zealandgets drawn into that package.
I think there are at leastthree possible attitudes.
One, since it's cheaper tosupport a Native missionary,
(16:25):
let's let them do the job, andthen we have a very prominent
Asian leader who speaks aboutnative missionaries and then the
rest of us are colonialmissionaries.
Well, that's a reversediscrimination, adverse
discrimination.
So I hear in the Statesindirectly that pastors will say
(16:49):
well, you know, since thenatives or the nationals are
doing it, let's just focus onshort-term missions.
But what concerns me most inthe United States is the silent
(17:10):
pulpit about God's heart for thewhole world.
And the fact is that thelandscape I mean you in Canada,
you know that very, very wellthe number of refugees or legal
or illegal immigrants.
You know we're facing that inthe United States.
But God has his mysteries onthat one too.
I was speaking at a Spanishchurch in Austin some years ago
(17:30):
and the worship lasted about anhour and a half and I expected
that.
And then I'm introduced and Isay you know, I'd like to know
how many of you came to theUnited States this way.
No, no, this way that we'rejust crossing the bridge or
flying.
It's a code for legal.
So about half of them raisedtheir hands.
(17:53):
I said that means that's therest of you came this way.
So we had a good laugh.
Then I asked how many, when youcame to this country either this
way or this way came to faithin Christ here in this country,
and half of them raised theirhands.
I say you see, you came fleeinga bad marriage or a brutal
(18:17):
husband or a political violenceor the drug gangs or whatever,
but God brought you because hewanted you to come to know Jesus
.
There are now in Austin, Idon't know, there are hundreds
of Hispanic churches, and thenthe outreach to the immigrants
(18:39):
from Bhutan, from Republic ofCongo.
So if the Western nations donot adjust, they're going to
miss out with a phenomenalblessing of God.
What does it mean to partnerwith our sisters and brothers
(18:59):
who are engaged in the sameheart for the people who do not
know Jesus?
Brian Stiller (19:06):
same heart for the people who do not know Jesus
.
Bill, let me go to an issuethat has surfaced over the
centuries and that's the kind ofthe bifurcation of the message.
You and I know that 20thcentury organizations like World
Vision and others they grew outof people who were evangelizing
in other countries, as happenedwith World Vision and others.
(19:26):
They grew out of people whowere evangelizing in other
countries, as happened withWorld Vision in South Korea.
To what degree does missionsend up being humanitarian work
over against being the simpletelling of Jesus or teaching
people the Bible?
How have missions landed inyour view and in your experience
(19:50):
?
Bill Taylor (19:52):
Well, I think we're in a I don't know if the word
crisis, or confusion, oruncertainty, maybe it's all of
those when I was growing up as achild of missionaries, the task
was evangelism, and so theGreat Commission was go, and I
(20:13):
remember memorizing these songsgo, go, go go.
These Western mission entitieswho had that driving vision knew
that hospitals were needed andwere doors to the hearts of
people.
It's the Protestantconversionary movement that was
(20:38):
convinced that languages, theScripture, has to be translated
into languages, and then peopleneed to be taught to read, and
the first book that's publishedis the Bible.
So there's literacy, a wholephalanx of what we would call
today humanitarian interests,but they were essential to the
(21:03):
gospel, essential to the gospel.
Now, early on, the question isis a Christian hospital in
Nigeria a bridge to the gospelor a result of the gospel?
I don't know.
It's both, it's both.
So the criticism that theWestern missionary movement was
not interested in integralmission or in the lives of the
(21:28):
people and their concerns,that's a crock, frankly.
Now, what's happening today,brian, is more subtle, and I
think it is a dangerousbifurcation of young adults
energized by older adults whoknow how to organize structures,
(21:53):
say the task is justice andcompassion, and that's the need,
not gospel and church, need notgospel and church.
The young adult celebrations orcollege student celebrations
that happen at the end of theyear Urbana or the Passion, or
before the International Houseof Prayer, ihop in Kansas City.
(22:17):
They would bring in 10,000,20,000 young adults, but then
there would be one meal wherethey would fast, and that money
is going to go to World Visionin South Africa or Zimbabwe, or
there are HIV aid packages thatwe're going to put together, and
(22:38):
so they fast and they sacrifice.
But is there more?
And I think part of the problem, brian, is that we haven't
learned what Jesus did, or theApostles.
The first miracle is a miracleof healing that leads to the
(22:59):
preaching.
So there you have compassion,justice merged with gospel and
the community of Christ.
And so in my own case, brian, Ihave returned more to Luke,
chapter 4, when Jesus comes fromthe temptation and he's in
(23:21):
Nazareth and he takes up in thesynagogue the scroll and reads
from Isaiah, and I think thatthat is our Lord's great
commission for himself.
And so there you havecompassion, you have justice,
but the good news is preachedand the focus on building the
(23:46):
community of Jesus' followers.
And then there's a fifthcomponent that, frankly, I have
picked up in more recent study,and that's persecution.
So I think, if mission is goingto be what God wants it to be,
yes, we need to be concernedabout issues of compassion and
justice, but don't bifurcate,don't dichotomize.
(24:09):
That's a simplisticreductionism.
But then we need to think aboutthis fifth item, which is now a
global phenomenon, and that'spersecution.
So I think a lot of my youngerfriends are really sold out on
the justice and compassion, butJesus is singular.
(24:34):
There's nobody like him.
I mean, if it's a choicebetween Coca Cola and Pepsi,
well, I will choose Coke becauseCoke is singular.
Is Coke unique?
No, it's not unique.
Is Jesus singular?
Is he just the better of theoptions or is there no one like
him?
He's unique and it's tough toargue the uniqueness of Christ
(24:59):
to a younger generation that'sbeen shaped by a new kind of
religious pluralism and almost afundamentalist secularism.
So I am committed to both.
My wife and I support all fiveof these things because I think
(25:20):
that's what God calls us to doand it's a false dichotomy that
we cannot allow to take theground.
Brian Stiller (25:30):
Bill, you've been involved in missions both as a
missionary yourself, you andyour wife, in Guatemala, and
then you headed up the MissionsCommission of the World
Evangelical Alliance for anumber of years, so you've got a
pretty good panoramic view ofwhere the mission of the church
is today and how we have doneover the last few decades.
(25:53):
So give me your best shot atwhere we are today.
Bill Taylor (25:58):
I think in the West and in the more globalized
social media connectivity aroundthe world which would be, let's
say, in Latin America, it wouldbe the university student world
where TikTok, the very inGuatemala there are I forget if
(26:22):
it's 9 million people and thereare 11 million smartphones, so 2
million have two of them.
When you buy the cheapestsmartphone in Guatemala, it
comes with WhatsApp, it comeswith Facebook, it comes with
TikTok, it comes with TikTok,and WhatsApp is the
(26:45):
communications media really,around the world, but certainly
in Latin America and Africa.
The ideological undermining ofthe uniqueness of Jesus Christ
is a very serious virus that isaffecting our younger
(27:05):
generations around the world,and so that's calling for a new
kind of being the people of Godor a new kind of telling the
story of Jesus lesspropositional, less four
spiritual laws and more a story.
I've been trying to learn newways to talk to people about
(27:29):
Jesus.
I haven't used the fourspiritual laws in God knows how
many years because there arepropositions.
I've tried it in Spanish and itjust doesn't work in narrative
oral cultures With my apologiesto those who have been blessed
by it and I have used it well,but I think that what we're
(27:52):
seeing in Latin America.
Let's take the country ofHonduras or Guatemala.
Honduras is the one that comesto mind.
20 years ago, overwhelmingmajority Roman Catholic 30 years
ago.
Today the Catholics are aminority.
(28:13):
Evangelicals are a majority inthe sociological categories of
surveys of census.
In Costa Rica, the nationalcensus some years ago was very
intriguing because it asked whatreligion are you Roman Catholic
(28:35):
, evangelical, muslim?
Now Islam is coming in orsomething else?
And then they asked what wereyou?
And 10% of the people said I ama former evangelical.
Now that's a very disturbingcategory and what we see in
(28:56):
Latin America, particularly incountries where the evangelical
gospel or churches arenumerically as strong, is as
it's very difficult to find anyimpact on the society.
It's very, very difficult.
If Guatemala is about 46Protestant or evangelical, 46
(29:21):
Roman Catholic, is thereevidence of the power of God to
change the culture?
No, because if the militaryaren't converted and if the top
rich 1% aren't converted, thenation will not change.
So ethics is private, but itdoesn't change the society.
(29:41):
So I think a concern that Ihave from the West is this new
pluralism, or I'm spiritual butnot religious kind of thing.
In some countries of LatinAmerica which I know the most it
would be nominal evangelical.
Ironically, churches, theirgreatest attendance is the
(30:05):
Sunday that serves HolyCommunion, because they don't
want to miss out on the specialbenefits of only that Sunday.
So I'm going to the fifth ComeyBomb Latin America, spain,
portugal Congress of Missions inPanama this end of this next
month and I'm going to belistening.
(30:26):
It's the first of the fourcongresses that I don't have
anything to do, so I'm justgoing to have fun meeting
friends, old friends, sittingtalking but then asking
questions, because I'm going totake that week as a school where
Bill Taylor is going to go backto school to say what's
(30:47):
happening in Latin America.
Mission for 20 years and thenanother 10 as a senior mentor.
When I started, brian, in Juneof 1986, I had no idea what I
was doing.
(31:07):
I had no idea what WorldEvangelical Fellowship at that
time was.
And it's about that time that Imet you and I said, well,
here's an articulate Canadianmore or less my age and I better
sit close to him because heknows what this thing is all
about.
And so I grew like crazy.
(31:27):
But I started as an activistand in 1999, I became a
reflective practitioner and Icame out of that.
Iguazu, brazil.
Consultation on missiology.
For the first time in my life Iself-identified as a
missiologist.
(31:48):
I'd never done that before.
But I'm more a reflectivepractitioner and that's how I
want to read the world.
So I'm concerned globally.
I'm concerned in this country,the United States.
The percentage of evangelicalpopulation, which is defined so
differently, depending if it's aBarna, a Pew study or a federal
(32:13):
government study.
The definitions are different.
I don't know who to believe.
I tend to opt for the lowestpercentage.
I think that's closer to thetruth, not the happy we're
winning percentage.
So I'm concerned.
I'm going to be 85 this yearand I'm deeply concerned and I'm
(32:35):
saying, lord, I don't have avoice, a public voice, to speak.
But my friend David Ruiz, in ameeting a few years ago with
some guys that I was mentoringleaders in Latin America, he
gave a prophetic word to me.
He said, guillermo, bill, hesaid you must change your voice
(33:01):
or your tongue for a pen.
And God's calling on you now isnot to speak but is to write.
Brian Stiller (33:12):
Bill, what would you say to a young Bill Taylor,
a Gen Z today, who is very muchinterested in allowing their
life to be used in the serviceof Christ?
And they have a global interest?
What are the three things youwould suggest they need to
(33:36):
consider as they plan theirfuture?
Bill Taylor (33:39):
There's an event that's happening with Mission
Nexus here in the US and thetitle is Is Gen Z the Future of
Missions?
So what would I say to a Gen Z,bill Taylor, who has this
proclivity, this passion, thistendency?
(33:59):
I would say, bill, I'm going tobe 85 years old, but I want you
to know how much I admire you,how much I respect you because
you're going against the current, because you're going against
the current Number two.
You must deepen yourspirituality, because stuff is
(34:22):
going to happen, especially ifyou stick with this for a longer
term.
And there's a spirituality thatsort of motivates you and gets
you to the field.
And then stuff happens.
Plans don't work out, you havea conflict with leadership,
you're on the brink of being anattrition statistic.
(34:44):
And where in the Sam Hill isGod now?
And that's when that secondlevel of spirituality has to
kick in, which is the call forendurance, and it's to study the
scriptures on suffering.
And then, brian, I thinkthere's a third spirituality
(35:08):
that I'm trying to understand atmy age.
It's the spirituality that Iend up with.
It's the spirituality that Iend up with.
You know, I have a lot ofprayer requests that God hasn't
answered and I can still weepover them, but at the end of the
(35:37):
day it's not my power to bringabout those changes.
It's disappointment with God.
It's in my 50s, in the middleof spirituality, finally
demythologizing in my missionaryfamily.
So I would say to the young BillTaylor you've got to deepen
(35:59):
your spirituality.
You have to go outside of thecommon evangelical sources and
beware of anybody who says ifyou want to be a leader, you can
be good, but here are the stepsto being great.
(36:19):
So I would say, when you arrivein your area of ministry,
realize that you are a learner,but also realize that God has
put you there.
Therefore you have something togive.
I think those are three things,maybe a bit scattered.
One I'm encouraged by you, bill.
Scattered One I'm encouraged byyou, bill.
(36:40):
I'm so glad to know you.
I hope I live till I'm 100 so Ican follow you for 16 years and
pray for you.
And then you've got to work onyour spirituality.
Brian Stiller (36:53):
Bill, I was struck by one of the things that
you had learned out ofleadership.
In your book Leading from Below, you said measure your mentors
by how they model the style ofJesus.
So attach yourself to mentorsand find those who model in
(37:14):
their lives Jesus of theScriptures.
Bill Taylor (37:18):
When my son, david, said the second half of this
bigger book that's for familyonly, a different voice comes
out.
It's the voice of somebody whodid not think he would be a
leader, did not seek leadership,did not ask for it, but it came
to him and he didn't turn itdown.
(37:38):
And then, eventually, itchanged you and then you became
a leader.
But what kind of a leader did Iwant to be?
To be honest, brian, I don'tthink I reflected on that until
the last 10 years, because I'mlooking back on my life.
(38:00):
Leading from below is leadingaccording to the path of Jesus.
Instead of being good to great,good to great, it's following
(38:20):
the path to the cross, and thepeople that have had the deepest
impact on my life are marked bythe wounds of the cross.
Wounds because of their ownfaults and their own mistakes,
wounds brought on by others,wounds from life, wounds from
God.
It pleased the Lord to bruisehis servant, not because the
(38:46):
servant was disobedient, butJesus learned suffering.
And the other thing aboutleading from below is that it's
collegial.
You know, in all my years withthe exception of two years on
the faculty, at TrinityEvangelical Divinity School I've
(39:07):
raised my own support.
I still do.
You know what that's like.
You're sort of at the mercy ofthe generous people of God who
you hope stay with you.
You're sort of at the mercy ofthe generous people of God who
you hope stay with you.
But in all of my leadership Iwas working with people who
could have been defined asentrepreneurs have money, will
travel.
I didn't have to raise theirsupport.
(39:30):
Therefore I did not havehierarchical authority over them
.
It was more here's a dream Ihave.
Can you help me shape it?
How do we need to change thisdream?
(39:50):
And then the question would youjoin me?
And I had the unique gift,brian, and I'm thinking of three
people who said can I join you?
And they became key members ofthe staff team.
I didn't recruit them, but theywere friends who somehow
(40:17):
captured a vision.
Brian Stiller (40:19):
Bill, it's been an enormous pleasure of having
you here today.
We have just touched bits andpieces of this remarkable
autobiographical treatise ofyours called Leading from Below
(40:39):
below, and I would encourage you, my listeners, to find that
book and treat yourself to thelife and the ministry of Bill
Taylor and his family and hisleadership globally.
Bill, thanks again for beingwith us today.
Bill Taylor (40:49):
Well, thank you, brian, for being a friend over
the many, many decades.
You were the first person I sawwith a portable computer and I
remember asking you is that acomputer?
Was it a Toshiba?
I don't know what brand it was,but just to let you know.
(41:09):
There are things that stick inmy mind.
And it was you with thatcomputer.
I think it was in Singapore.
So it's a high honor to knowyou and to be counted as a
friend and a colleague and Iwant you to know that that is
entirely mutual.
Thank you so much for lettingme converse with you.
(41:30):
In Spanish we would say estasideas despeinadas, which in
English means these uncombedideas, just sort of flow.
But it's been a joy, thank you.
I hope we can do this again.
Brian Stiller (41:45):
Thank you, bill, for joining us today and
providing us with a renewedunderstanding of what Christian
mission is and how we can liveit out faithfully today, and
thank you for being a part ofthe podcast.
Be sure to share this episode,use hashtag Evangelical360, and
join in the conversation onYouTube.
(42:06):
If you'd like to learn moreabout today's guest, check out
the show notes for links andinfo, and if you haven't already
received my free e-book andnewsletter, go to
brianstillercom.
Thanks again, until next time.
Bill Taylor (42:26):
Don't miss the next interview.
Be sure to subscribe toEvangelical 360 on YouTube.
See you there.
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