April 25, 2025 • 43 mins
What if the obstacles in your path aren't problems to overcome but divine opportunities to be shaped into Christ's image? In this soul-stirring conversation, bestselling author Ann Voskamp shares her harrowing journey from witnessing her sister's tragic death at age four to becoming a globally recognized voice on gratitude, suffering and faith.
Ann opens up about the paralyzing fear that followed childhood trauma—leading to ulcers, self-harm and eventually agoraphobia. Despite these struggles, she found faith through a neighborhood Bible club and later discovered how intentional gratitude could transform her relationship to suffering. "Faith gives thanks in the middle of the story," she explains, offering this practice as a fulcrum for leveraging life's heaviest burdens.
The conversation takes a profound turn as Ann unpacks her latest book, "Waymaker." Rather than finding an easier route through difficulties, it explores how God uses our obstacles to reshape us: "Our way is self-formed. God's way is cruciform." This insight became painfully real when her father died in the same farmyard where her sister had been killed decades earlier—on the very day her publisher returned edits for the manuscript.
Perhaps most movingly, Ann shares how adopting a daughter from China with half a heart (hypoplastic left heart syndrome) deepened her understanding of our relationship with God. We aren't merely followers of Christ but "kin to the King," adopted into divine family through Jesus' sacrifice. This filial relationship moves beyond legal forgiveness to emphasize attachment and intimacy with our Creator.
For those seeking a practical framework, Ann offers her S.A.C.R.E.D approach—Stillness, Attentiveness, Cruciformity, Revelation, Examine and Doxology—as a way of life that keeps us connected to Christ through life's deepest valleys. This isn't just about surviving hardship but thriving in God's presence regardless of circumstances.
You can learn more about Ann's books and journey through her website and find here on Facebook and Instagram.
And you can share this episode using hashtag #Evangelical360 and join the conversation online!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brian Stiller (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm Brian Stiller, your host,and I'm pleased to share with
you another conversation I havewith leaders, changemakers,
influencers, those having animpact on Christian life around
the world.
I'd also love for you to be apart of the podcast.
(00:32):
You can share this episode.
Just use hashtag Evangelical360, and then join us in
conversation on YouTube.
My guest today is Ann Voskamp,whose book 1,000 Gifts A Dare to
Live Fully, right when you Are,remained on the New York Times
bestseller list for 60 weeks andhas sold over a million copies.
(00:53):
Her mother has seven children.
Ann and her husband live on afarm in southern Ontario, canada
, where she strives to guide herfamily with the wisdom of these
words, and I quote where shestrives to guide her family with
the wisdom of these words, andI quote gratitude isn't only a
celebration when good thingshappen.
Gratitude is a declaration thatGod is good no matter what
happens.
(01:13):
End of quote.
I've just finished reading oneof her most recent books
Waymaker Finding the Way to theLife You've Always Dreamed.
Ann's writing is raw, elegant,vulnerable, filled with joy.
I'm so pleased that she's hereto share with us today.
(01:44):
Ann Voskamp, thank you so muchfor joining us today on
Evangelical 360.
Ann Voskamp (01:47):
Oh, the grace and privilege and joy is all mine.
Truly Thank you.
Brian Stiller (01:52):
But, Ann, I got to ask you this question.
A mother of seven living on afarm in southern Ontario how do
you end up on the New York Timesbestseller list over 60 weeks
on your book, 1,000 Gifts.
How did that happen?
Ann Voskamp (02:07):
Only.
God right, like totally onlyonly God Flattening the most
unexpected, unlikely thing.
Literally, I live in thebackside of the wilderness.
I live on a farm in Canada,married to a farmer.
Only God could have done that.
First of all, there was nomarketing plan for that book in
any capacity at all At the timeI wrote that book.
(02:30):
I mean, I had no numbers, Ididn't know, I couldn't have a
site meter on the blog at all atthat time and Zondervan was a
publisher and they went in onthe back end to look and they
thought maybe I had 800 blogreaders a day.
So like no, no quote unquoteplatform at all.
And I didn't intend to write abook.
(02:51):
I didn't take a book proposalto an agent.
I was just writing about on myown online journal.
That was just easier for me tosearch than writing in a journal
.
But I didn't have comments orany social media at all.
It was really just a journalfor me to be able to record how
gratitude to God was radicallychanging my life.
And an agent found me bloggingand asked if I was interested in
(03:13):
writing books and I said, oh no, I have little kids.
And it was my husband who saidwell, if the Lord opened a door,
you should walk through thatdoor till the Lord closes it.
So literally, only God did that.
Brian Stiller (03:25):
And I'm sure people who are watching today
would be fascinated to know justa bit about your life.
And then we'll get into one ofyour books.
Ann Voskamp (03:31):
Actually, my husband and I were both born in
the same hospital, delivered inthe same room by the same doctor
.
Our kids were born in the sameroom in the same hospital not
the same doctor though.
So I've lived my whole life inthe same place.
I was raised in a non-Christianfamily.
They were not believers.
Yet my first memory I writeabout this in 1000 Gifts my
(03:55):
first memory is being four yearsold and standing on a chair
beside my mother at the kitchensink washing dishes, and through
the farm window we could see mylittle sister Amy.
She was 18 months old and shewas toddling after a stray cat
in the farmyard.
It was the beginning ofNovember, so there were service
(04:16):
trucks, a propane truck thatcame into our yard farmyard to
fill the corn dryer bin up withpropane, and he didn't see my
sister and she was crushed andkilled in front of my mother and
I.
And when something so traumatichappens when you're four years
old, I lived with a lot of fearthat something terrible could
(04:37):
happen at any moment.
So by the time I was in gradetwo, seven years old, I was
diagnosed with ulcers and washospitalized, and then, by the
time I was in my teens, I didn'tknow how to process that pain
and I was cutting.
And then by the time I got tomy university, I was at York
University.
I was having panic attacks andwas diagnosed with agoraphobia.
(05:00):
I was just.
I was very, very fearful, andsometimes you can have a
cerebral understanding of God inyour mind, but it has to
actually migrate down into themarrow of your bones that you
can, that our faith in God is adeep enough trust in God that it
actually allows us to relaxinto the non-anxious presence of
(05:24):
the Lord.
And that has been a longjourney for me, brian.
I came to a saving knowledge ofthe Lord through Child
Evangelism Fellowship, good NewsBible Club.
Actually it's my husband's.
Mom and dad were Dutchimmigrants that came across in
the 1950s, were Dutch immigrantsthat came across in 1950s, and
(05:48):
so a Dutch immigrant woman witha grade six education opened her
home up through ChildEvangelism Fellowship For 23
years.
They had between 60 and 80 kidsevery Friday night in their
home and they had anotherspin-off Good News Bible Club,
another Dutch immigrant womanfrom their church.
They encouraged her to start aGood News Bible Club and the two
clubs would merge at certaintimes during the year and I was
one of those kids on aneighboring farm that came and
(06:11):
gave my life to Jesus.
But it was a journey tounderstand that Jesus had saved
me, but he had saved me forhimself and when I live in
Christ I don't have to—hisperfect love casts out all fear.
So, really, the journey ofpicking up a pen and starting to
write down the things that Iwas grateful for, counting all
the ways that God loves me,really starting to have a lived,
(06:36):
embodied experience of God'sperfect love for me, that his,
his grace, his provision, theJehovah Jireh who met me with
all of these provisionsyesterday, that I've counted all
these gifts, his provision, theJehovah Jireh who met me with
all of these provisionsyesterday, that I've counted all
these gifts, he's the sameJehovah Jireh that is going to
provide for me tomorrow.
So Thanksgiving really startedto build the planks of trust
from yesterday into tomorrow andinto a deeper relationship with
(06:58):
the Lord.
Brian Stiller (07:00):
Did you always have this gift of language?
Were you aware of this as youwere growing up?
Ann Voskamp (07:06):
I always really loved writing writing in lots of
ways.
To be honest with you, I seewriting as my handicap.
Like lots of people can livetheir lives and they can see the
hands of God moving throughouttheir day.
For me, I have to slow downenough to either pick up a pen
and journal or with a keyboardand start to write to go, oh,
(07:26):
see how God was working throughthis situation, in this
situation.
And writing was a way for me toconnect dots and to slow down
enough to see, as I write words,that I actually encounter the
word and see how the author ofour lives is writing a
redemptive story through thedays of our lives.
And I came from farmers whotold good stories and liked to
(07:49):
tell good stories.
And I remember my Uncle Elmerand my grandfather telling great
stories that you would justwant to.
When Grandpa and Uncle Elmerwould come, we would all turn
off the television and justlisten to their stories at night
.
I came from good folk,hardworking folk, who could tell
good stories.
Brian Stiller (08:07):
So you become a farmer's wife, you marry a farm
boy, yes.
And you begin that journey andyou end up with birthing six and
adopting one.
So you have seven.
Yeah, how do you manage life,mother of seven and a farm boy,
along with?
Ann Voskamp (08:27):
I'm so grateful.
I'm so grateful.
My husband he is the youngestin that Dutch family, so he was
the youngest of nine, so he camefrom a really big family.
Daryl and I, we came here tothis farm I think we were 20 and
21.
So we were really young and wehad six children across 10 years
(08:49):
, so there was a lot of littlekids.
Brian Stiller (08:53):
It sounds like it .
Ann Voskamp (08:55):
It was kind of intense and I was at York
University.
I was taking a concurrentprogram before we got married.
I was taking a concurrentprogram in child psychology and
education, so I thought I wasgoing to end up being a teacher.
So when all of our little tribecame along, I ended up
homeschooling.
So I was homeschooling all ofthe kids and you know what?
It was crazy and a little bitwild, but it was wonderful.
(09:19):
I believed a great schooling daywas could I read to the kids
aloud between two to three hoursevery day.
So that was my goal was to readand read and read, and we used
to take out a hundred books at atime out of the Kitchener
Waterloo public library andbring home stacks of books.
So I really like, for me in alot of ways, writing.
I was always a journaler but interms of writing a lot of that
(09:39):
came through homeschooling, thatI was reading, reading, reading
to my kids and I wanted, Ibelieve, great books.
When you open them up, they cantake you into.
They can take you all the wayaround the world.
They can take you intobiography and all kinds of great
faithful disciples of the Lordand their faithful lives all
around the world.
So I saturated the kids and Iin all kinds of books which also
(10:00):
then stoked me for like, oh,can I write the very humble
story of God's life in our ownlife.
Brian Stiller (10:07):
I know that your book 1000 Gifts was the
bestseller, but I'd like us tocome more into a more recent
book of yours called Waymaker.
Now, I bought this book.
I had heard about you.
Ann Voskamp (10:21):
Can I ask how in the world did you hear about a
farmer's wife in southwesternOntario?
Brian Stiller (10:26):
Friends were talking about you.
Have you heard about this, AnnVoss?
What?
How do you pronounce that lastname?
And so it was Christmas timeand I was out buying gifts for
my wife and I was at thebookstore and I saw your book
and I thought I've always wantedto read you, and of course, I
(10:48):
buy books for my wife forChristmas so I can read them.
That's why we buy books, right?
What I would like to do is totake you to some of your
beautiful language, veryexpository ideas on faith and
life.
What is the thesis of Waymakerand how did this evolve?
(11:10):
As a writer, as you werethinking about your next project
?
Ann Voskamp (11:15):
Writing for me really comes out of the fabric
of my everyday life.
So when I wrote, when I wrote1000 gifts, that really was
telling a very I'm not telling.
I'm not writing any storiestelling anyone to do anything
prescriptively that I haven'tactually had to really work out
in my own life.
So 1000 gifts really was aboutlook at, you can't
(11:36):
simultaneously feel fear andgratitude at the same time in
your own brain.
And this is the story of whathappens when you actually take
God's commandments seriously togive thanks and everything.
And so I told that story.
But as I was living that out, Irealized, oh, when you start to
give thanks for all that you'vebeen given, realize everything
(11:57):
is a gift you own nothing.
It's all meant to be given backinto the world.
So my next book was the BrokenWay.
How do we live broken and givenout into the world?
Just.
My next book was the Broken Way.
How do we live broken and givenout into the world?
Just as Jesus took the bread atthe Last Supper, gave thanks
for it, then what does he do?
He breaks it and he passes iton.
So the next book, after 1,000Gifts, was the Broken Way, about
how do we live a life brokenand given out into the world.
(12:18):
Waymaker really tells a story ofas we then chose to live a
cruciform life, a life shapedand formed by the cross, giving
out into the world.
Part of that story was the Lordcalled us into adoption,
adopting a little girl fromChina who literally has half of
a heart.
She has hypoplastic left heartsyndrome, so she has come
(12:39):
through multiple open heartsurgeries and, unless the Lord
works a miracle, shiloheventually someday will need a
heart transplant.
So us reaching out to adoptShiloh really was started with
gratitude, realizing how muchwe've been given.
How can we then not reach outto those we are all esters
inside the gate who need toreach out to those outside the
(13:00):
gate and pass on the grace we'vebeen given?
Waymaker tells the story ofadopting one little girl with a
broken heart, how, in my ownmarriage, I broke my husband's
heart and how I literally myselfended up with heart failure and
in the hospital.
But it's a book really abouttrying to make a way, not just
(13:24):
make a way to adopt a child inChina, not just about how to
make a way in a marriage whenyou're in a difficult time, but
ultimately realizing whetherit's adoption or marriage.
Both of those relationships aremetaphors for union and
communion with God.
We think we want a way through,be it in our marriage
(13:47):
relationships and our familyrelationships and all kinds of
when we feel caught between arock and a hard place.
We think we want a way throughwhen, ultimately, we need a way
of life that keeps us in the wayhimself.
So I'm telling a larger storyabout a marriage and an adoption
and hearts that are.
(14:08):
It's all really metaphor, forwhat does it mean to live in
deep intimacy and communion withGod and have a way of life that
keeps us close to his heart?
Brian Stiller (14:17):
Your subtitle of this, called Finding the Way to
the Life You've Always Dreamedof, I thought set it up well.
Let me pick one quote, and thisdeals with suffering.
You write by the lie that yourlife is supposed to be heaven on
earth and suffering can be atorturous hell.
(14:38):
But life is suffering andsuffering is but the cross we
bear.
Suffering and suffering is butthe cross we bear, and I love
this Part of Earth's topographythe cross on our way to heaven.
What did this emerge from inyour own life?
Ann Voskamp (14:55):
I think I really realized in so many ways.
I didn't realize it, but subtlybut subtly, I had started to
buy the lie that consumerism allaround us can be feeding us,
that if you live your x, y or z,buy this, get this, live out
(15:19):
this particular formula.
There is a way to navigate lifesuch that you avoid suffering,
which, even when you're deep inGod's word, deep in a faith
community, you can slowly startto buy the lie that, oh, I
should be able to traverse thetopography of life, somehow get
(15:41):
from point A to point B throughmy life without suffering.
And I didn't realize that insome ways, maybe, maybe, had I
started to buy into a prosperitygospel in some very, very
nuanced ways that I wasn't evenaware of.
Where, I think, when you reallystart to realize, wait, we
(16:04):
follow a suffering Savior.
How do we expect to follow asuffering Savior without
suffering ourselves andrealizing that everything in our
lives, the suffering,everything, why is God doing
this to us?
All of it is a sanctifyingexperience to make us more
cruciform, to make our livesshaped more like a cross when we
(16:26):
pick up a cross and bear it,that proximity to Christ's
suffering, that proximity tobearing our own cross, is going
to form and shape us moreChrist-like.
That, ultimately, is the lifewe say, we dream of, that we say
we ultimately want.
Sometimes we just don't want theway we have to traverse to
(16:47):
become more cruciform andultimately, that is through
suffering.
Do we have a way of life thatallows us, invites us to embrace
suffering Is a gift from Godbecause it is going to form and
shape me more like Christhimself.
That's an upside down way ofthinking.
That's a paradigm shift thatcan't just happen once in our
(17:10):
life.
We need to have a way of lifethat keeps us with that frame of
mind.
Otherwise it's very easy toslip into oh, if God really
loves me, I won't face suffering.
If God really loves me, I won'tface loss.
And we know from scripture weface loss and suffering such
that God might be glorified andwe might become more like him.
Brian Stiller (17:31):
Our natural instinct is to fight.
Suffering is to avoid it.
So when suffering comes, howdoes one make that paradigm
shift to move from fightingsuffering to embracing suffering
?
How does that come about?
Ann Voskamp (17:47):
That is maybe the most insightful question ever
Like.
That is the crux to so many ofour stories, brian, that right
there, I think in my own lifethat is a daily intentional
discipline that comes from a lotof it stems from.
(18:07):
Do I have a way of life thathas me every day picking up a
pen and giving thanks, not in aPollyanna kind of way, not in an
IE kind of way, but actuallycan I pick up a pen and I
actually have a discipline ofpicking up a pen and writing
down in a journal all the thingsthat I don't want to give
(18:29):
thanks for, that seem likethings that cause deep pain and
suffering for me?
Can I give thanks even forthose things?
Because in the giving thanksfor those things that begins a
paradigm shift to go, even thethings that are hard, can I
count them as good gifts?
Can I count them as good giftsBecause I believe Romans 8, 28,.
The Lord is working all thingstogether for good for those who
(18:50):
love him and are calledaccording to his purpose, and
his purpose is such that Ibecome more like Christ.
So do we have a discipline anda way of life to go?
Can I trust that the way I seethe world is different than the
way God sees the world, andwithout the lens of the word the
world warps.
Can I pick up the word and useit as a lens to see through my
(19:11):
life and go oh, I might see thisas a difficult thing, but if I
can give thanks for it, I cantrust that God is redemptively
working through this difficultthing.
I say it over and over and overto myself Faith gives thanks in
the middle of the story.
Can I give thanks in the middleof a story that seems hard?
Can I gives thanks in themiddle of the story?
Can I give thanks in the middleof a story that seems hard?
Can I give thanks in the middleof a story that I don't
(19:32):
actually want?
Because if I can give thanks inthe middle of the story, I'm
trusting that by the end of thestory the Lord has worked this
redemptively for my good and hisglory.
I also want to be careful whenwe pick up God's word.
He has a whole book, psalmsthat's very honest about lament.
When we give thanks in hardplaces and hard stories in the
(19:54):
midst of suffering and pain, wedon't do it from a place that
denies pain and suffering.
We can come to God honestlywith our real lament and with
our heart, howl about howdifficult and painful this
circumstance is, and our heartcan echo the heart of David.
And when David gets to thoseend of the Psalms, again he can
(20:14):
say give thanks to the Lord, forhis love and kindness endures
forever.
So it's not either or it's both, and I can come to God and say
God, here's the pain andsuffering, and I can pray like
Jesus prayed Take this cup ofsuffering from me.
I don't want this cup ofsuffering.
And at the same time I can alsopray not my will, but your will
be done, and I will give thankseven for this bread of
(20:37):
suffering, and trust that youare going to use this not only
to sustain me but to make memore like you like you.
So, in your experience, isThanksgiving the fulcrum on
which we lever the weight ofsuffering?
Such a profound question, brian, in my own personal experience,
(20:58):
yes, waymaker breaks down myown way of life, rule of life,
with that acronym, sacred, andthat acronym stands for
stillness, attentiveness,cruciformity, revelation,
examine.
And then the D of SACRED isdoxology.
Again, it comes back tothanksgiving, because
(21:21):
thanksgiving is your act oftrust that God is not.
God is not wasting these tears,god is not wasting the
suffering and pain.
It's an act of trust to say I amgoing to thank you for this
because your ways are higherthan my ways, you, from my
perspective, I would write thestory this way, but I am not God
(21:41):
.
You are God who sees a fargreater story.
God, you are God who sees a fargreater story.
So I might be in a story where,lord, I don't understand the
why of this way.
But the only one that canunderstand this story and how my
story connects to someoneelse's story, which connects to
someone else's story, whichconnects to someone else's story
(22:02):
, is the one who is the way,himself, the author of all of
these stories.
So from my perspective, I cansay this is too painful, this is
a terrible way.
I would never write it this way, but I am not the author of a
million, million million stories, so I have to trust the way of
the waymaker himself that he'swriting a bigger story
Brian Stiller (22:30):
given that this book, way maker, ends with the
story of the adoption of your,of your little girl from china.
this, this, this paragraph thatyou write, let me quote we
aren't merely a ragtag, limpingbunch of followers flailing
behind god.
We aren't merely a motley tribeof wounded drifters rallying
around God, and we aren't merelya straggling remnant of
(22:53):
wanderers leaning on God tosplit a way through everything
to make an easier way to someoasis in our imagination.
In Christ, we are more thanmere followers of God.
We are akin to God.
We are the clan of Christ, thehouse of the holy, of the tribe
of the Trinity, family of theFather, sibling of the Savior,
and we are bone of God's bonewed to him, adopted by him,
(23:16):
secured, fastened and bound asone to him, and he has made a
way for us to be seen and saved,secure and safe.
Now there's a mouthful, butadopting and having seven
children, that just gives you aworking metaphor for what we are
(23:37):
in God's family.
Ann Voskamp (23:39):
I think it's the etymology, the root of the words
, to me understand.
We know that he is King ofKings, king, lord of Lord, king
of Kings, and yet in the root ofthe word King is the word kin.
So when we worship, he is Kingof Kings worthy of all our
(24:02):
adoration and praise and at thesame time, all our adoration and
praise, and at the same timeit's almost incomprehensible to
fathom that we are kin to theKing of Kings because of his
sacrifice on the cross, that he,because of his blood, shed for
us on the cross.
When we say yes to his bloodcovering all of our sin, to His
(24:29):
blood covering all of our sin,he is adopting us in by His
blood so that we are His child,we are bone of His bone, grafted
in to the family of God.
That image, for me, truly movesme to tears.
It's hard for me to comprehendthat kind of grace.
And yet I've also experiencedadopting Shiloh, knowing I mean.
Our children say all the timemama, you're not supposed to
(24:53):
have favorites, but we all knowthat Shiloh is your favorite.
And for all of our kids willsay, besides Jesus, shiloh is
the best thing that everhappened to any of us, realizing
that, though she was born toparents literally on the other
side of the world, she is notonly as she, grafted into our
(25:13):
hearts, we're grafted into hers,and that is a work that only
the Lord can do, and that whatwe experience as a family
through adoption, we also get toexperience spiritually in the
family of God, which isabsolutely mind-blowing and I
think, for us to understand.
As we worship the Lord, as weare discipled by the Lord, he
(25:38):
loves us enough to be kin withus and make us kin to Him.
That is, I think, part of thecrux of Waymaker, part of the
thesis of Waymaker.
Actually, waymaker was writtentwice over because I wrote the
book only telling the adoptionstory, and then you'll see later
on in the book I'm sitting downwith a theology professor from
(26:01):
Biola.
It's actually Kyle Strobel, leeStrobel's son, and I was asking
him about.
It's actually Kyle Strobel, leeStrobel's son, and I was asking
him about like, how do we havean understanding of communion
and union with Christ?
And it was him who said, whotold me, that you know, we have
a very judiciary understandingof Christ's atonement on the
cross, that, yes, he has paidfor us, like in a court, he has
(26:28):
made the sacrifice for us sothat we are free.
But if we only have a judiciaryunderstanding of our
relationship with Jesus, then wewalk out of the courtroom and
we don't have ongoing communionwith him.
And it was Kyla who said wehave to have an understanding
beyond a judiciary relationshipwith Christ and understand that
it's also a filial relationship,the person who pays the price
(26:52):
in the courtroom.
He hasn't just made a legaltransaction, he's actually made
a filial, a family transaction.
Then when you walk out of thecourtroom you're not walking out
and kind of thanking him at adistance.
You are now part of a familyand attached.
(27:13):
So ultimately, waymaker reallyis about do you have a way of
life that keeps you attached toGod?
Because we look at marriagestrong marriages are about
attachment.
We look at adoption and strong.
That is all about attachmentand ultimately our relationship
with Jesus is about attachment.
We look at adoption and strong.
That is all about attachmentand ultimately our relationship
with Jesus is about attachment.
He didn't go to the cross.
That penal substitutionaryatonement happens at the cross.
(27:34):
Atonement for, ultimately, forat-one-ment.
He wants to be that close to you, to have an at-one-ment, an
intimate relationship with you,which again to have an
at-one-ment and intimaterelationship with you, which,
again, I'm having paradigmshifts, brian, all of the time
Brian Stiller (27:55):
and there is a great interest and you read this
in the New York Times and othermajor communication pieces that
there's a growing interest inspirituality in our culture and
the Gen Zers are really intothis.
But I was caught by something.
You had this interesting line.
You said the father's mothertongue is always the son.
(28:16):
So in your, obviously yourbooks touch on the idea of
spirituality.
I mean, you're speaking intothe spiritual sensitivities of
people, but you frame yourspirituality in a theistic way
where Jesus becomes the languageof the Father.
Ann Voskamp (28:37):
I think there's a growing sense globally, a
searching spiritually, becausewe know we're made, we're more
than Adams, we're made withsouls that are seeking meaning
and and purpose and and homebelonging.
(28:57):
But I I keep coming back toJohn 1, 1, in the beginning was
the Word and the Word was withGod and the Word was God.
And in Greek, the Greektranslation of that word, word,
is logos, literally the logic ofthe universe, the complete
(29:21):
understanding and meaning of theuniverse comes back to the one
who is God incarnate.
So I believe that, first of all, I believe that this is a
created world.
This world is not by accident.
It has too much intelligentdesign.
It cannot happen by accident.
So who created this world Inthe beginning was the word.
It comes back.
(29:42):
If you want logic, if you wantmeaning, if you want
understanding, it all comes backto the word.
If you want a soul compass,that soul compass has to come
back to the word.
If you want to know a waythrough, you need to have a way
of life that keeps you in theword.
I think we know this in our ownsouls.
(30:02):
We are made up of more thanatoms.
We are made up of more thanatoms we are made up of words
and stories and it comes back tocan I live my story under the
authority, the authority of theauthor himself?
The one who has all authorityin my life is the author of the
(30:25):
universe, of this sacred textand of my life.
In 2022,.
I finished my master's degreeat Wheaton in evangelism and
leadership.
I'm currently at Biola, workingat my doctorate in spiritual
formation and soul care, but mycoursework?
At Wheaton, we took a lot ofcourses in apologetics and
looking at what does it work.
(30:46):
At Wheaton, we took a lot ofcourses in apologetics and
looking at what does it.
How is this world made?
What does it look like forpeople?
Looking for meaning and,ultimately, what is the most
compelling argument for thisword is is lived apologetics.
How?
What is it?
How does our lives literallychange?
(31:07):
Because this word becomes ourcompass, and I hope, through the
writing of 1,000 Gifts, theBroken Way, waymaker, my other
books, my book that I justreleased last week, love to Life
that each of these books, it'slived apologetics.
This is what my life was like,apart from Christ.
Look at how there is nowhealing and wholeness and peace
(31:28):
and living into his non-anxiouspresence because of Christ.
Brian Stiller (31:33):
And let me come back again to this notion of him
being the waymaker, and I'mgoing to pull a quote from your
book Waymaker, press the ear tothe ear to the seashell and hear
it.
If the way you're walkingdoesn't have crosses,
afflictions, persecutions andself-denial, you're not on
(31:55):
Christ's way.
His ways are waves and ours theshore, always resisting.
Our way is self-formed.
God's way is cruciform.
Our way is wide andself-comforting.
Our way is self-formed.
God's way is cruciform.
Our way is wide andself-comforting.
His way is narrow andself-denying, and our way rarely
crosses his, as his way alwaysmeans a carrying of a cross.
(32:20):
Let the shore give way to thekiss of the waves and their
caressing, sculpting ways.
So, as the way maker, he isn'tjust making a way, but he's
re-sculpting us as we make theway.
Ann Voskamp (32:35):
That is exactly it.
We keep thinking we want a waythrough, as opposed to
understanding that God is usingall of these things, the
obstacles in our way, toactually shape us into a new way
of being.
I say it over and over again inWaymaker Can we shift our
paradigm?
Can we shift our understandingto realize the obstacle is the
(32:59):
miracle, the obstacle in the wayis the miracle that we're
actually looking for, becausethe obstacle will cause us to
turn towards him.
The obstacle can turn ustowards him in prayer.
The obstacle can go ahead andcause us to reassess our
priorities, our longings, ourwantings, the idols in our own
(33:21):
hearts.
The obstacle is the miracle,because the obstacle turns us,
drives us deeper into Christ'sheart.
And I think if you ask anyonethat has faced deep suffering
stories that they would doanything to change, we're all
carrying our own unspoken broken.
When you sit with those people,they will all testify.
(33:43):
I would have never asked forthis.
I didn't want this story, butthis terrible thing, if I lived,
surrendered, gave me more ofJesus than I had otherwise, I
wouldn't do anything to changethe story.
Ultimately and ultimately, brian, I wrote the book Waymaker and
(34:05):
submitted it to my editor, thepublisher and the day the
publisher went to return to memy edits for that book, the date
was written at the top of everypage of the manuscript April
29th 2021, which was also thesame day that I stood in the
(34:27):
same farmyard where my sisterwas crushed and killed under the
wheels of a service truck,because my father was crushed
and killed in the same farm yardunder the wheels of a tractor
on April 29th 2021.
So here I was.
(34:49):
Every time I went to do theedits of this book, waymaker, I
am looking at the date.
It felt like the enemy of oursouls hissing at me.
Do I still believe all that Iwrote?
Is he still a way maker whennot only does something terrible
happen in your family once, butit happens twice?
(35:11):
Is God still good now?
And I can honestly say thatactually, the manuscript became
sweeter to me Jesus, the truthof who he is, the cross that we
bear, that makes us morecruciform through a deeper
valley of suffering than I evercould have imagined.
But, yes, not only did Ibelieve it more.
(35:34):
Actually, there were parts ofit I edited because I believed
it even to a greater degree thanI did when I wrote it.
So I really truly can say, notfrom a trite place, but from the
deepest valley, from thedeepest valley, that the places
of suffering actually give usmore of Jesus, in a way that we
(35:56):
could never access otherwise.
Brian Stiller (36:00):
And you use an interesting acronym, SACRED, as
a way of framing your thoughtsand the way you process.
Give us a quick outline ofSACRED and what that acronym
stands for in your mind.
Ann Voskamp (36:15):
It actually comes from the Israelites fleeing
Egypt and standing there at apot between the Pharaoh and his
army coming up against them andthem standing there in front of
the Red Sea.
So it's coming from Exodus 14.
So sacred.
Can we have a way of life Forme?
Actually, we now have a journalcalled Sacred Prayer that comes
it's the practical journal thatcomes out of Waymaker, so you
(36:37):
can pick that up and it lays itout for you every day.
The S of sacred is stillness.
Be still and know that I am God.
Be still and trust that theLord will do the delivering for
you.
The Lord will fight for you.
So it's starting each day, notfrom a posture of hustle and
performance, but a posture ofsurrender and stillness before
(36:58):
the Lord.
The A of sacred is aboutattentiveness.
Can I have a posture ofattentiveness to hear the
questions that God asks me everyday?
Because I think that sometimes,in places of suffering, we have
all these questions of God.
Why did this happen?
How are you allowing this to belike this, as opposed to being
(37:20):
attentive to the questions Godasks us every day?
Who do you say that I am?
That's frame shifting every day.
I know that my father is theava, king of the universe.
What do I have to fear?
So, starting every day, withwho do I say that you are God.
The second question, the samequestion that he asks Hagar in
(37:40):
Genesis where are you comingfrom and where are you going to?
That's a locating of our soul.
If we say in real estate thatwhat matters most is location,
location, location, in our walkwith the Lord, what matters most
is location, location, locationof our soul in relation to God,
if we say we want to have arelationship with him, do we
have a way of life that slowsdown enough to locate ourselves
(38:02):
and say where am I coming fromright now and the trajectory I'm
on, where am I going to?
So to attend to that questionevery day?
And the third question toattend to every day, the A of
sacred is question Jesus askshis disciples what do you want?
Which is a very clarifyingquestion when you realize, oh,
(38:22):
is what I want?
Is it aligned with the will ofGod?
Do I want what he wants?
So to slow down every day andsay, okay, lord, this is
actually what I want and purifyme so that my wants aligns with
your will.
The sea of sacred is what I keepcoming back to over and over
again is cruciform.
How do I live a cruciform life?
A life that looks like a cross,with one hand stretched out to
(38:45):
God and one hand stretched outto people?
That posture of cruciformity isa posture of surrender.
So, every day, asking Lord, howdo you want me to live
cruciform today?
What does surrender look likefor me today?
What do you ask me to sacrificeso that I can reach out to you
and I can reach out to peopleand being really intentional
(39:05):
about what it looks like to livea cruciform life.
The R of sacred is revelation.
We say we want to weigh through, but do we have a fresh
revelation of who God is fromhis word?
So, every day, to write downthis is what God has revealed to
me about his heart, about hischaracter, about his way and his
will, so that I don't go outinto the day until the Lord has
(39:26):
revealed more of himself to me.
If he is the way, I want moreof a fresh revelation of him.
The E of sacred is examine.
To slow down enough and examinemy own heart.
Over and over and over again,over 360 sometimes.
In scripture it comes back todo not be afraid.
So to slow down enough and askmy heart what am I afraid of?
(39:48):
Because really, we're beingdriven by two things all of the
time we're either being drivenby fear or by love.
So if we can slow down enoughto say what am I actually afraid
of here, love, so if we canslow down enough to say what am
I actually afraid of here, whatis driving me in ways that are
motivated by fear, and toactually all kinds of
psychiatrists they didn't wename it to tame it.
So if we write it down, we namethe fears, we are taming the
(40:09):
fears, and then immediately tofollow up with the d of doxology
, because it's impossible tofeel fear and gratitude at the
same time.
So can I go ahead and say hereare my fears, lord, and then I'm
going to turn to Lord.
What can I thank you for today?
I think, ultimately that acronymof sacred, whether it can be.
I've had so many letters frompeople who've said you know, I
(40:31):
started off journaling sacredevery day using that acronym and
my time with the Lord everymorning.
And now it has, which isbeautiful, but now it's migrated
for a way of thinking in my dayto day life where I'm like, oh
wait, I can feel the overwhelm.
Wait, where do I start?
I start with stillness.
I'm going to be attentive.
What does it look like to livecruciform?
Lord, give me a freshrevelation.
So it actually moves from justa way of journaling to actually
(40:53):
to be a way of thinking, like anactual way of being in the
world.
And I think ultimately, I thinkultimately sacred is about
sacred means to be set apart.
How am I setting apart my mindand my heart for union and
communion with the one that I ammade for?
So for me, you'll see, you'llsee the migration of where I've
(41:15):
been, 1000 Gifts was aboutgratitude and doxology.
Broken Way is about living abroken and given life, a
cruciform life.
Waymaker is kind of thesynthesis of all of these things
into a rule of life, a way oflife, because you'll see
cruciform and doxology rightthere in the acronym sacred.
Brian Stiller (41:34):
And thank you so much.
Let's do this again, can we?
Ann Voskamp (41:37):
By all means.
I just want to thank you foryour leadership, both in Canada
and globally, and the testimonyof your life has just blessed me
in so many ways through all ofthe ministries that you have
touched.
So just thank you for such atime as now, for your voice and
your leadership, and really,really grateful just to be able
to create this space thatlisteners can lean in and say
(42:00):
what does it look like to walkwith the one who is love himself
?
Brian Stiller (42:05):
Thank you, god bless.
Ann Voskamp (42:05):
God, go with you, thanks.
Brian Stiller (42:08):
Thank you, Ann, for joining us today and for
giving us the opportunity tohear some of your story and to
be inspired by your faith andway of life, and thank you for
being a part of the podcast.
Be sure to share this episode.
Use hashtag Evangelical360 andthen join on the conversation on
(42:29):
YouTube.
If you'd like to learn moreabout today's guest, check the
show notes for links and forinfo, and if you haven't already
received my free e-book andnewsletter, go to
brianstillercom.
Thanks again, until next time.
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm Brian Stiller, your host,and I'm pleased to share with
you another conversation I havewith leaders, changemakers,
influencers, those having animpact on Christian life around
the world.
I'd also love for you to be apart of the podcast.
(00:32):
You can share this episode.
Just use hashtag Evangelical360, and then join us in
conversation on YouTube.
My guest today is Ann Voskamp,whose book 1,000 Gifts A Dare to
Live Fully, right when you Are,remained on the New York Times
bestseller list for 60 weeks andhas sold over a million copies.
(00:53):
Her mother has seven children.
Ann and her husband live on afarm in southern Ontario, canada
, where she strives to guide herfamily with the wisdom of these
words, and I quote where shestrives to guide her family with
the wisdom of these words, andI quote gratitude isn't only a
celebration when good thingshappen.
Gratitude is a declaration thatGod is good no matter what
happens.
(01:13):
End of quote.
I've just finished reading oneof her most recent books
Waymaker Finding the Way to theLife You've Always Dreamed.
Ann's writing is raw, elegant,vulnerable, filled with joy.
I'm so pleased that she's hereto share with us today.
(01:44):
Ann Voskamp, thank you so muchfor joining us today on
Evangelical 360.
Ann Voskamp (01:47):
Oh, the grace and privilege and joy is all mine.
Truly Thank you.
Brian Stiller (01:52):
But, Ann, I got to ask you this question.
A mother of seven living on afarm in southern Ontario how do
you end up on the New York Timesbestseller list over 60 weeks
on your book, 1,000 Gifts.
How did that happen?
Ann Voskamp (02:07):
Only.
God right, like totally onlyonly God Flattening the most
unexpected, unlikely thing.
Literally, I live in thebackside of the wilderness.
I live on a farm in Canada,married to a farmer.
Only God could have done that.
First of all, there was nomarketing plan for that book in
any capacity at all At the timeI wrote that book.
(02:30):
I mean, I had no numbers, Ididn't know, I couldn't have a
site meter on the blog at all atthat time and Zondervan was a
publisher and they went in onthe back end to look and they
thought maybe I had 800 blogreaders a day.
So like no, no quote unquoteplatform at all.
And I didn't intend to write abook.
(02:51):
I didn't take a book proposalto an agent.
I was just writing about on myown online journal.
That was just easier for me tosearch than writing in a journal
.
But I didn't have comments orany social media at all.
It was really just a journalfor me to be able to record how
gratitude to God was radicallychanging my life.
And an agent found me bloggingand asked if I was interested in
(03:13):
writing books and I said, oh no, I have little kids.
And it was my husband who saidwell, if the Lord opened a door,
you should walk through thatdoor till the Lord closes it.
So literally, only God did that.
Brian Stiller (03:25):
And I'm sure people who are watching today
would be fascinated to know justa bit about your life.
And then we'll get into one ofyour books.
Ann Voskamp (03:31):
Actually, my husband and I were both born in
the same hospital, delivered inthe same room by the same doctor
.
Our kids were born in the sameroom in the same hospital not
the same doctor though.
So I've lived my whole life inthe same place.
I was raised in a non-Christianfamily.
They were not believers.
Yet my first memory I writeabout this in 1000 Gifts my
(03:55):
first memory is being four yearsold and standing on a chair
beside my mother at the kitchensink washing dishes, and through
the farm window we could see mylittle sister Amy.
She was 18 months old and shewas toddling after a stray cat
in the farmyard.
It was the beginning ofNovember, so there were service
(04:16):
trucks, a propane truck thatcame into our yard farmyard to
fill the corn dryer bin up withpropane, and he didn't see my
sister and she was crushed andkilled in front of my mother and
I.
And when something so traumatichappens when you're four years
old, I lived with a lot of fearthat something terrible could
(04:37):
happen at any moment.
So by the time I was in gradetwo, seven years old, I was
diagnosed with ulcers and washospitalized, and then, by the
time I was in my teens, I didn'tknow how to process that pain
and I was cutting.
And then by the time I got tomy university, I was at York
University.
I was having panic attacks andwas diagnosed with agoraphobia.
(05:00):
I was just.
I was very, very fearful, andsometimes you can have a
cerebral understanding of God inyour mind, but it has to
actually migrate down into themarrow of your bones that you
can, that our faith in God is adeep enough trust in God that it
actually allows us to relaxinto the non-anxious presence of
(05:24):
the Lord.
And that has been a longjourney for me, brian.
I came to a saving knowledge ofthe Lord through Child
Evangelism Fellowship, good NewsBible Club.
Actually it's my husband's.
Mom and dad were Dutchimmigrants that came across in
the 1950s, were Dutch immigrantsthat came across in 1950s, and
(05:48):
so a Dutch immigrant woman witha grade six education opened her
home up through ChildEvangelism Fellowship For 23
years.
They had between 60 and 80 kidsevery Friday night in their
home and they had anotherspin-off Good News Bible Club,
another Dutch immigrant womanfrom their church.
They encouraged her to start aGood News Bible Club and the two
clubs would merge at certaintimes during the year and I was
one of those kids on aneighboring farm that came and
(06:11):
gave my life to Jesus.
But it was a journey tounderstand that Jesus had saved
me, but he had saved me forhimself and when I live in
Christ I don't have to—hisperfect love casts out all fear.
So, really, the journey ofpicking up a pen and starting to
write down the things that Iwas grateful for, counting all
the ways that God loves me,really starting to have a lived,
(06:36):
embodied experience of God'sperfect love for me, that his,
his grace, his provision, theJehovah Jireh who met me with
all of these provisionsyesterday, that I've counted all
these gifts, his provision, theJehovah Jireh who met me with
all of these provisionsyesterday, that I've counted all
these gifts, he's the sameJehovah Jireh that is going to
provide for me tomorrow.
So Thanksgiving really startedto build the planks of trust
from yesterday into tomorrow andinto a deeper relationship with
(06:58):
the Lord.
Brian Stiller (07:00):
Did you always have this gift of language?
Were you aware of this as youwere growing up?
Ann Voskamp (07:06):
I always really loved writing writing in lots of
ways.
To be honest with you, I seewriting as my handicap.
Like lots of people can livetheir lives and they can see the
hands of God moving throughouttheir day.
For me, I have to slow downenough to either pick up a pen
and journal or with a keyboardand start to write to go, oh,
(07:26):
see how God was working throughthis situation, in this
situation.
And writing was a way for me toconnect dots and to slow down
enough to see, as I write words,that I actually encounter the
word and see how the author ofour lives is writing a
redemptive story through thedays of our lives.
And I came from farmers whotold good stories and liked to
(07:49):
tell good stories.
And I remember my Uncle Elmerand my grandfather telling great
stories that you would justwant to.
When Grandpa and Uncle Elmerwould come, we would all turn
off the television and justlisten to their stories at night
.
I came from good folk,hardworking folk, who could tell
good stories.
Brian Stiller (08:07):
So you become a farmer's wife, you marry a farm
boy, yes.
And you begin that journey andyou end up with birthing six and
adopting one.
So you have seven.
Yeah, how do you manage life,mother of seven and a farm boy,
along with?
Ann Voskamp (08:27):
I'm so grateful.
I'm so grateful.
My husband he is the youngestin that Dutch family, so he was
the youngest of nine, so he camefrom a really big family.
Daryl and I, we came here tothis farm I think we were 20 and
21.
So we were really young and wehad six children across 10 years
(08:49):
, so there was a lot of littlekids.
Brian Stiller (08:53):
It sounds like it .
Ann Voskamp (08:55):
It was kind of intense and I was at York
University.
I was taking a concurrentprogram before we got married.
I was taking a concurrentprogram in child psychology and
education, so I thought I wasgoing to end up being a teacher.
So when all of our little tribecame along, I ended up
homeschooling.
So I was homeschooling all ofthe kids and you know what?
It was crazy and a little bitwild, but it was wonderful.
(09:19):
I believed a great schooling daywas could I read to the kids
aloud between two to three hoursevery day.
So that was my goal was to readand read and read, and we used
to take out a hundred books at atime out of the Kitchener
Waterloo public library andbring home stacks of books.
So I really like, for me in alot of ways, writing.
I was always a journaler but interms of writing a lot of that
(09:39):
came through homeschooling, thatI was reading, reading, reading
to my kids and I wanted, Ibelieve, great books.
When you open them up, they cantake you into.
They can take you all the wayaround the world.
They can take you intobiography and all kinds of great
faithful disciples of the Lordand their faithful lives all
around the world.
So I saturated the kids and Iin all kinds of books which also
(10:00):
then stoked me for like, oh,can I write the very humble
story of God's life in our ownlife.
Brian Stiller (10:07):
I know that your book 1000 Gifts was the
bestseller, but I'd like us tocome more into a more recent
book of yours called Waymaker.
Now, I bought this book.
I had heard about you.
Ann Voskamp (10:21):
Can I ask how in the world did you hear about a
farmer's wife in southwesternOntario?
Brian Stiller (10:26):
Friends were talking about you.
Have you heard about this, AnnVoss?
What?
How do you pronounce that lastname?
And so it was Christmas timeand I was out buying gifts for
my wife and I was at thebookstore and I saw your book
and I thought I've always wantedto read you, and of course, I
(10:48):
buy books for my wife forChristmas so I can read them.
That's why we buy books, right?
What I would like to do is totake you to some of your
beautiful language, veryexpository ideas on faith and
life.
What is the thesis of Waymakerand how did this evolve?
(11:10):
As a writer, as you werethinking about your next project
?
Ann Voskamp (11:15):
Writing for me really comes out of the fabric
of my everyday life.
So when I wrote, when I wrote1000 gifts, that really was
telling a very I'm not telling.
I'm not writing any storiestelling anyone to do anything
prescriptively that I haven'tactually had to really work out
in my own life.
So 1000 gifts really was aboutlook at, you can't
(11:36):
simultaneously feel fear andgratitude at the same time in
your own brain.
And this is the story of whathappens when you actually take
God's commandments seriously togive thanks and everything.
And so I told that story.
But as I was living that out, Irealized, oh, when you start to
give thanks for all that you'vebeen given, realize everything
(11:57):
is a gift you own nothing.
It's all meant to be given backinto the world.
So my next book was the BrokenWay.
How do we live broken and givenout into the world?
Just.
My next book was the Broken Way.
How do we live broken and givenout into the world?
Just as Jesus took the bread atthe Last Supper, gave thanks
for it, then what does he do?
He breaks it and he passes iton.
So the next book, after 1,000Gifts, was the Broken Way, about
how do we live a life brokenand given out into the world.
(12:18):
Waymaker really tells a story ofas we then chose to live a
cruciform life, a life shapedand formed by the cross, giving
out into the world.
Part of that story was the Lordcalled us into adoption,
adopting a little girl fromChina who literally has half of
a heart.
She has hypoplastic left heartsyndrome, so she has come
(12:39):
through multiple open heartsurgeries and, unless the Lord
works a miracle, shiloheventually someday will need a
heart transplant.
So us reaching out to adoptShiloh really was started with
gratitude, realizing how muchwe've been given.
How can we then not reach outto those we are all esters
inside the gate who need toreach out to those outside the
(13:00):
gate and pass on the grace we'vebeen given?
Waymaker tells the story ofadopting one little girl with a
broken heart, how, in my ownmarriage, I broke my husband's
heart and how I literally myselfended up with heart failure and
in the hospital.
But it's a book really abouttrying to make a way, not just
(13:24):
make a way to adopt a child inChina, not just about how to
make a way in a marriage whenyou're in a difficult time, but
ultimately realizing whetherit's adoption or marriage.
Both of those relationships aremetaphors for union and
communion with God.
We think we want a way through,be it in our marriage
(13:47):
relationships and our familyrelationships and all kinds of
when we feel caught between arock and a hard place.
We think we want a way throughwhen, ultimately, we need a way
of life that keeps us in the wayhimself.
So I'm telling a larger storyabout a marriage and an adoption
and hearts that are.
(14:08):
It's all really metaphor, forwhat does it mean to live in
deep intimacy and communion withGod and have a way of life that
keeps us close to his heart?
Brian Stiller (14:17):
Your subtitle of this, called Finding the Way to
the Life You've Always Dreamedof, I thought set it up well.
Let me pick one quote, and thisdeals with suffering.
You write by the lie that yourlife is supposed to be heaven on
earth and suffering can be atorturous hell.
(14:38):
But life is suffering andsuffering is but the cross we
bear.
Suffering and suffering is butthe cross we bear, and I love
this Part of Earth's topographythe cross on our way to heaven.
What did this emerge from inyour own life?
Ann Voskamp (14:55):
I think I really realized in so many ways.
I didn't realize it, but subtlybut subtly, I had started to
buy the lie that consumerism allaround us can be feeding us,
that if you live your x, y or z,buy this, get this, live out
(15:19):
this particular formula.
There is a way to navigate lifesuch that you avoid suffering,
which, even when you're deep inGod's word, deep in a faith
community, you can slowly startto buy the lie that, oh, I
should be able to traverse thetopography of life, somehow get
(15:41):
from point A to point B throughmy life without suffering.
And I didn't realize that insome ways, maybe, maybe, had I
started to buy into a prosperitygospel in some very, very
nuanced ways that I wasn't evenaware of.
Where, I think, when you reallystart to realize, wait, we
(16:04):
follow a suffering Savior.
How do we expect to follow asuffering Savior without
suffering ourselves andrealizing that everything in our
lives, the suffering,everything, why is God doing
this to us?
All of it is a sanctifyingexperience to make us more
cruciform, to make our livesshaped more like a cross when we
(16:26):
pick up a cross and bear it,that proximity to Christ's
suffering, that proximity tobearing our own cross, is going
to form and shape us moreChrist-like.
That, ultimately, is the lifewe say, we dream of, that we say
we ultimately want.
Sometimes we just don't want theway we have to traverse to
(16:47):
become more cruciform andultimately, that is through
suffering.
Do we have a way of life thatallows us, invites us to embrace
suffering Is a gift from Godbecause it is going to form and
shape me more like Christhimself.
That's an upside down way ofthinking.
That's a paradigm shift thatcan't just happen once in our
(17:10):
life.
We need to have a way of lifethat keeps us with that frame of
mind.
Otherwise it's very easy toslip into oh, if God really
loves me, I won't face suffering.
If God really loves me, I won'tface loss.
And we know from scripture weface loss and suffering such
that God might be glorified andwe might become more like him.
Brian Stiller (17:31):
Our natural instinct is to fight.
Suffering is to avoid it.
So when suffering comes, howdoes one make that paradigm
shift to move from fightingsuffering to embracing suffering
?
How does that come about?
Ann Voskamp (17:47):
That is maybe the most insightful question ever
Like.
That is the crux to so many ofour stories, brian, that right
there, I think in my own lifethat is a daily intentional
discipline that comes from a lotof it stems from.
(18:07):
Do I have a way of life thathas me every day picking up a
pen and giving thanks, not in aPollyanna kind of way, not in an
IE kind of way, but actuallycan I pick up a pen and I
actually have a discipline ofpicking up a pen and writing
down in a journal all the thingsthat I don't want to give
(18:29):
thanks for, that seem likethings that cause deep pain and
suffering for me?
Can I give thanks even forthose things?
Because in the giving thanksfor those things that begins a
paradigm shift to go, even thethings that are hard, can I
count them as good gifts?
Can I count them as good giftsBecause I believe Romans 8, 28,.
The Lord is working all thingstogether for good for those who
(18:50):
love him and are calledaccording to his purpose, and
his purpose is such that Ibecome more like Christ.
So do we have a discipline anda way of life to go?
Can I trust that the way I seethe world is different than the
way God sees the world, andwithout the lens of the word the
world warps.
Can I pick up the word and useit as a lens to see through my
(19:11):
life and go oh, I might see thisas a difficult thing, but if I
can give thanks for it, I cantrust that God is redemptively
working through this difficultthing.
I say it over and over and overto myself Faith gives thanks in
the middle of the story.
Can I give thanks in the middleof a story that seems hard?
Can I gives thanks in themiddle of the story?
Can I give thanks in the middleof a story that seems hard?
Can I give thanks in the middleof a story that I don't
(19:32):
actually want?
Because if I can give thanks inthe middle of the story, I'm
trusting that by the end of thestory the Lord has worked this
redemptively for my good and hisglory.
I also want to be careful whenwe pick up God's word.
He has a whole book, psalmsthat's very honest about lament.
When we give thanks in hardplaces and hard stories in the
(19:54):
midst of suffering and pain, wedon't do it from a place that
denies pain and suffering.
We can come to God honestlywith our real lament and with
our heart, howl about howdifficult and painful this
circumstance is, and our heartcan echo the heart of David.
And when David gets to thoseend of the Psalms, again he can
(20:14):
say give thanks to the Lord, forhis love and kindness endures
forever.
So it's not either or it's both, and I can come to God and say
God, here's the pain andsuffering, and I can pray like
Jesus prayed Take this cup ofsuffering from me.
I don't want this cup ofsuffering.
And at the same time I can alsopray not my will, but your will
be done, and I will give thankseven for this bread of
(20:37):
suffering, and trust that youare going to use this not only
to sustain me but to make memore like you like you.
So, in your experience, isThanksgiving the fulcrum on
which we lever the weight ofsuffering?
Such a profound question, brian, in my own personal experience,
(20:58):
yes, waymaker breaks down myown way of life, rule of life,
with that acronym, sacred, andthat acronym stands for
stillness, attentiveness,cruciformity, revelation,
examine.
And then the D of SACRED isdoxology.
Again, it comes back tothanksgiving, because
(21:21):
thanksgiving is your act oftrust that God is not.
God is not wasting these tears,god is not wasting the
suffering and pain.
It's an act of trust to say I amgoing to thank you for this
because your ways are higherthan my ways, you, from my
perspective, I would write thestory this way, but I am not God
(21:41):
.
You are God who sees a fargreater story.
God, you are God who sees a fargreater story.
So I might be in a story where,lord, I don't understand the
why of this way.
But the only one that canunderstand this story and how my
story connects to someoneelse's story, which connects to
someone else's story, whichconnects to someone else's story
(22:02):
, is the one who is the way,himself, the author of all of
these stories.
So from my perspective, I cansay this is too painful, this is
a terrible way.
I would never write it this way, but I am not the author of a
million, million million stories, so I have to trust the way of
the waymaker himself that he'swriting a bigger story
Brian Stiller (22:30):
given that this book, way maker, ends with the
story of the adoption of your,of your little girl from china.
this, this, this paragraph thatyou write, let me quote we
aren't merely a ragtag, limpingbunch of followers flailing
behind god.
We aren't merely a motley tribeof wounded drifters rallying
around God, and we aren't merelya straggling remnant of
(22:53):
wanderers leaning on God tosplit a way through everything
to make an easier way to someoasis in our imagination.
In Christ, we are more thanmere followers of God.
We are akin to God.
We are the clan of Christ, thehouse of the holy, of the tribe
of the Trinity, family of theFather, sibling of the Savior,
and we are bone of God's bonewed to him, adopted by him,
(23:16):
secured, fastened and bound asone to him, and he has made a
way for us to be seen and saved,secure and safe.
Now there's a mouthful, butadopting and having seven
children, that just gives you aworking metaphor for what we are
(23:37):
in God's family.
Ann Voskamp (23:39):
I think it's the etymology, the root of the words
, to me understand.
We know that he is King ofKings, king, lord of Lord, king
of Kings, and yet in the root ofthe word King is the word kin.
So when we worship, he is Kingof Kings worthy of all our
(24:02):
adoration and praise and at thesame time, all our adoration and
praise, and at the same timeit's almost incomprehensible to
fathom that we are kin to theKing of Kings because of his
sacrifice on the cross, that he,because of his blood, shed for
us on the cross.
When we say yes to his bloodcovering all of our sin, to His
(24:29):
blood covering all of our sin,he is adopting us in by His
blood so that we are His child,we are bone of His bone, grafted
in to the family of God.
That image, for me, truly movesme to tears.
It's hard for me to comprehendthat kind of grace.
And yet I've also experiencedadopting Shiloh, knowing I mean.
Our children say all the timemama, you're not supposed to
(24:53):
have favorites, but we all knowthat Shiloh is your favorite.
And for all of our kids willsay, besides Jesus, shiloh is
the best thing that everhappened to any of us, realizing
that, though she was born toparents literally on the other
side of the world, she is notonly as she, grafted into our
(25:13):
hearts, we're grafted into hers,and that is a work that only
the Lord can do, and that whatwe experience as a family
through adoption, we also get toexperience spiritually in the
family of God, which isabsolutely mind-blowing and I
think, for us to understand.
As we worship the Lord, as weare discipled by the Lord, he
(25:38):
loves us enough to be kin withus and make us kin to Him.
That is, I think, part of thecrux of Waymaker, part of the
thesis of Waymaker.
Actually, waymaker was writtentwice over because I wrote the
book only telling the adoptionstory, and then you'll see later
on in the book I'm sitting downwith a theology professor from
(26:01):
Biola.
It's actually Kyle Strobel, leeStrobel's son, and I was asking
him about.
It's actually Kyle Strobel, leeStrobel's son, and I was asking
him about like, how do we havean understanding of communion
and union with Christ?
And it was him who said, whotold me, that you know, we have
a very judiciary understandingof Christ's atonement on the
cross, that, yes, he has paidfor us, like in a court, he has
(26:28):
made the sacrifice for us sothat we are free.
But if we only have a judiciaryunderstanding of our
relationship with Jesus, then wewalk out of the courtroom and
we don't have ongoing communionwith him.
And it was Kyla who said wehave to have an understanding
beyond a judiciary relationshipwith Christ and understand that
it's also a filial relationship,the person who pays the price
(26:52):
in the courtroom.
He hasn't just made a legaltransaction, he's actually made
a filial, a family transaction.
Then when you walk out of thecourtroom you're not walking out
and kind of thanking him at adistance.
You are now part of a familyand attached.
(27:13):
So ultimately, waymaker reallyis about do you have a way of
life that keeps you attached toGod?
Because we look at marriagestrong marriages are about
attachment.
We look at adoption and strong.
That is all about attachmentand ultimately our relationship
with Jesus is about attachment.
We look at adoption and strong.
That is all about attachmentand ultimately our relationship
with Jesus is about attachment.
He didn't go to the cross.
That penal substitutionaryatonement happens at the cross.
(27:34):
Atonement for, ultimately, forat-one-ment.
He wants to be that close to you, to have an at-one-ment, an
intimate relationship with you,which again to have an
at-one-ment and intimaterelationship with you, which,
again, I'm having paradigmshifts, brian, all of the time
Brian Stiller (27:55):
and there is a great interest and you read this
in the New York Times and othermajor communication pieces that
there's a growing interest inspirituality in our culture and
the Gen Zers are really intothis.
But I was caught by something.
You had this interesting line.
You said the father's mothertongue is always the son.
(28:16):
So in your, obviously yourbooks touch on the idea of
spirituality.
I mean, you're speaking intothe spiritual sensitivities of
people, but you frame yourspirituality in a theistic way
where Jesus becomes the languageof the Father.
Ann Voskamp (28:37):
I think there's a growing sense globally, a
searching spiritually, becausewe know we're made, we're more
than Adams, we're made withsouls that are seeking meaning
and and purpose and and homebelonging.
(28:57):
But I I keep coming back toJohn 1, 1, in the beginning was
the Word and the Word was withGod and the Word was God.
And in Greek, the Greektranslation of that word, word,
is logos, literally the logic ofthe universe, the complete
(29:21):
understanding and meaning of theuniverse comes back to the one
who is God incarnate.
So I believe that, first of all, I believe that this is a
created world.
This world is not by accident.
It has too much intelligentdesign.
It cannot happen by accident.
So who created this world Inthe beginning was the word.
It comes back.
(29:42):
If you want logic, if you wantmeaning, if you want
understanding, it all comes backto the word.
If you want a soul compass,that soul compass has to come
back to the word.
If you want to know a waythrough, you need to have a way
of life that keeps you in theword.
I think we know this in our ownsouls.
(30:02):
We are made up of more thanatoms.
We are made up of more thanatoms we are made up of words
and stories and it comes back tocan I live my story under the
authority, the authority of theauthor himself?
The one who has all authorityin my life is the author of the
(30:25):
universe, of this sacred textand of my life.
In 2022,.
I finished my master's degreeat Wheaton in evangelism and
leadership.
I'm currently at Biola, workingat my doctorate in spiritual
formation and soul care, but mycoursework?
At Wheaton, we took a lot ofcourses in apologetics and
looking at what does it work.
(30:46):
At Wheaton, we took a lot ofcourses in apologetics and
looking at what does it.
How is this world made?
What does it look like forpeople?
Looking for meaning and,ultimately, what is the most
compelling argument for thisword is is lived apologetics.
How?
What is it?
How does our lives literallychange?
(31:07):
Because this word becomes ourcompass, and I hope, through the
writing of 1,000 Gifts, theBroken Way, waymaker, my other
books, my book that I justreleased last week, love to Life
that each of these books, it'slived apologetics.
This is what my life was like,apart from Christ.
Look at how there is nowhealing and wholeness and peace
(31:28):
and living into his non-anxiouspresence because of Christ.
Brian Stiller (31:33):
And let me come back again to this notion of him
being the waymaker, and I'mgoing to pull a quote from your
book Waymaker, press the ear tothe ear to the seashell and hear
it.
If the way you're walkingdoesn't have crosses,
afflictions, persecutions andself-denial, you're not on
(31:55):
Christ's way.
His ways are waves and ours theshore, always resisting.
Our way is self-formed.
God's way is cruciform.
Our way is wide andself-comforting.
Our way is self-formed.
God's way is cruciform.
Our way is wide andself-comforting.
His way is narrow andself-denying, and our way rarely
crosses his, as his way alwaysmeans a carrying of a cross.
(32:20):
Let the shore give way to thekiss of the waves and their
caressing, sculpting ways.
So, as the way maker, he isn'tjust making a way, but he's
re-sculpting us as we make theway.
Ann Voskamp (32:35):
That is exactly it.
We keep thinking we want a waythrough, as opposed to
understanding that God is usingall of these things, the
obstacles in our way, toactually shape us into a new way
of being.
I say it over and over again inWaymaker Can we shift our
paradigm?
Can we shift our understandingto realize the obstacle is the
(32:59):
miracle, the obstacle in the wayis the miracle that we're
actually looking for, becausethe obstacle will cause us to
turn towards him.
The obstacle can turn ustowards him in prayer.
The obstacle can go ahead andcause us to reassess our
priorities, our longings, ourwantings, the idols in our own
(33:21):
hearts.
The obstacle is the miracle,because the obstacle turns us,
drives us deeper into Christ'sheart.
And I think if you ask anyonethat has faced deep suffering
stories that they would doanything to change, we're all
carrying our own unspoken broken.
When you sit with those people,they will all testify.
(33:43):
I would have never asked forthis.
I didn't want this story, butthis terrible thing, if I lived,
surrendered, gave me more ofJesus than I had otherwise, I
wouldn't do anything to changethe story.
Ultimately and ultimately, brian, I wrote the book Waymaker and
(34:05):
submitted it to my editor, thepublisher and the day the
publisher went to return to memy edits for that book, the date
was written at the top of everypage of the manuscript April
29th 2021, which was also thesame day that I stood in the
(34:27):
same farmyard where my sisterwas crushed and killed under the
wheels of a service truck,because my father was crushed
and killed in the same farm yardunder the wheels of a tractor
on April 29th 2021.
So here I was.
(34:49):
Every time I went to do theedits of this book, waymaker, I
am looking at the date.
It felt like the enemy of oursouls hissing at me.
Do I still believe all that Iwrote?
Is he still a way maker whennot only does something terrible
happen in your family once, butit happens twice?
(35:11):
Is God still good now?
And I can honestly say thatactually, the manuscript became
sweeter to me Jesus, the truthof who he is, the cross that we
bear, that makes us morecruciform through a deeper
valley of suffering than I evercould have imagined.
But, yes, not only did Ibelieve it more.
(35:34):
Actually, there were parts ofit I edited because I believed
it even to a greater degree thanI did when I wrote it.
So I really truly can say, notfrom a trite place, but from the
deepest valley, from thedeepest valley, that the places
of suffering actually give usmore of Jesus, in a way that we
(35:56):
could never access otherwise.
Brian Stiller (36:00):
And you use an interesting acronym, SACRED, as
a way of framing your thoughtsand the way you process.
Give us a quick outline ofSACRED and what that acronym
stands for in your mind.
Ann Voskamp (36:15):
It actually comes from the Israelites fleeing
Egypt and standing there at apot between the Pharaoh and his
army coming up against them andthem standing there in front of
the Red Sea.
So it's coming from Exodus 14.
So sacred.
Can we have a way of life Forme?
Actually, we now have a journalcalled Sacred Prayer that comes
it's the practical journal thatcomes out of Waymaker, so you
(36:37):
can pick that up and it lays itout for you every day.
The S of sacred is stillness.
Be still and know that I am God.
Be still and trust that theLord will do the delivering for
you.
The Lord will fight for you.
So it's starting each day, notfrom a posture of hustle and
performance, but a posture ofsurrender and stillness before
(36:58):
the Lord.
The A of sacred is aboutattentiveness.
Can I have a posture ofattentiveness to hear the
questions that God asks me everyday?
Because I think that sometimes,in places of suffering, we have
all these questions of God.
Why did this happen?
How are you allowing this to belike this, as opposed to being
(37:20):
attentive to the questions Godasks us every day?
Who do you say that I am?
That's frame shifting every day.
I know that my father is theava, king of the universe.
What do I have to fear?
So, starting every day, withwho do I say that you are God.
The second question, the samequestion that he asks Hagar in
(37:40):
Genesis where are you comingfrom and where are you going to?
That's a locating of our soul.
If we say in real estate thatwhat matters most is location,
location, location, in our walkwith the Lord, what matters most
is location, location, locationof our soul in relation to God,
if we say we want to have arelationship with him, do we
have a way of life that slowsdown enough to locate ourselves
(38:02):
and say where am I coming fromright now and the trajectory I'm
on, where am I going to?
So to attend to that questionevery day?
And the third question toattend to every day, the A of
sacred is question Jesus askshis disciples what do you want?
Which is a very clarifyingquestion when you realize, oh,
(38:22):
is what I want?
Is it aligned with the will ofGod?
Do I want what he wants?
So to slow down every day andsay, okay, lord, this is
actually what I want and purifyme so that my wants aligns with
your will.
The sea of sacred is what I keepcoming back to over and over
again is cruciform.
How do I live a cruciform life?
A life that looks like a cross,with one hand stretched out to
(38:45):
God and one hand stretched outto people?
That posture of cruciformity isa posture of surrender.
So, every day, asking Lord, howdo you want me to live
cruciform today?
What does surrender look likefor me today?
What do you ask me to sacrificeso that I can reach out to you
and I can reach out to peopleand being really intentional
(39:05):
about what it looks like to livea cruciform life.
The R of sacred is revelation.
We say we want to weigh through, but do we have a fresh
revelation of who God is fromhis word?
So, every day, to write downthis is what God has revealed to
me about his heart, about hischaracter, about his way and his
will, so that I don't go outinto the day until the Lord has
(39:26):
revealed more of himself to me.
If he is the way, I want moreof a fresh revelation of him.
The E of sacred is examine.
To slow down enough and examinemy own heart.
Over and over and over again,over 360 sometimes.
In scripture it comes back todo not be afraid.
So to slow down enough and askmy heart what am I afraid of?
(39:48):
Because really, we're beingdriven by two things all of the
time we're either being drivenby fear or by love.
So if we can slow down enoughto say what am I actually afraid
of here, love, so if we canslow down enough to say what am
I actually afraid of here, whatis driving me in ways that are
motivated by fear, and toactually all kinds of
psychiatrists they didn't wename it to tame it.
So if we write it down, we namethe fears, we are taming the
(40:09):
fears, and then immediately tofollow up with the d of doxology
, because it's impossible tofeel fear and gratitude at the
same time.
So can I go ahead and say hereare my fears, lord, and then I'm
going to turn to Lord.
What can I thank you for today?
I think, ultimately that acronymof sacred, whether it can be.
I've had so many letters frompeople who've said you know, I
(40:31):
started off journaling sacredevery day using that acronym and
my time with the Lord everymorning.
And now it has, which isbeautiful, but now it's migrated
for a way of thinking in my dayto day life where I'm like, oh
wait, I can feel the overwhelm.
Wait, where do I start?
I start with stillness.
I'm going to be attentive.
What does it look like to livecruciform?
Lord, give me a freshrevelation.
So it actually moves from justa way of journaling to actually
(40:53):
to be a way of thinking, like anactual way of being in the
world.
And I think ultimately, I thinkultimately sacred is about
sacred means to be set apart.
How am I setting apart my mindand my heart for union and
communion with the one that I ammade for?
So for me, you'll see, you'llsee the migration of where I've
(41:15):
been, 1000 Gifts was aboutgratitude and doxology.
Broken Way is about living abroken and given life, a
cruciform life.
Waymaker is kind of thesynthesis of all of these things
into a rule of life, a way oflife, because you'll see
cruciform and doxology rightthere in the acronym sacred.
Brian Stiller (41:34):
And thank you so much.
Let's do this again, can we?
Ann Voskamp (41:37):
By all means.
I just want to thank you foryour leadership, both in Canada
and globally, and the testimonyof your life has just blessed me
in so many ways through all ofthe ministries that you have
touched.
So just thank you for such atime as now, for your voice and
your leadership, and really,really grateful just to be able
to create this space thatlisteners can lean in and say
(42:00):
what does it look like to walkwith the one who is love himself
?
Brian Stiller (42:05):
Thank you, god bless.
Ann Voskamp (42:05):
God, go with you, thanks.
Brian Stiller (42:08):
Thank you, Ann, for joining us today and for
giving us the opportunity tohear some of your story and to
be inspired by your faith andway of life, and thank you for
being a part of the podcast.
Be sure to share this episode.
Use hashtag Evangelical360 andthen join on the conversation on
(42:29):
YouTube.
If you'd like to learn moreabout today's guest, check the
show notes for links and forinfo, and if you haven't already
received my free e-book andnewsletter, go to
brianstillercom.
Thanks again, until next time.
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