May 16, 2025 • 35 mins
What happens when a nation rejects its moral compass only to find itself lost in the wilderness? Philip Yancey takes us on a journey through one of history's most remarkable untold stories - how Russia's brief spiritual awakening after communism's collapse ultimately gave way to authoritarian rule and war.
In this fascinating conversation, Yancey shares his firsthand experiences from the early 1990s when both Mikhail Gorbachev and Boris Yeltsin made an extraordinary request of Western Christians: help "restore morality" to their country. For approximately ten years, Russia experienced an unprecedented openness to spiritual matters, with missionaries flooding in and churches flourishing. Yet this window of opportunity eventually closed under Vladimir Putin's leadership.
The historical connections between Russia and Ukraine run deeper than most Western media coverage acknowledges. Yancey expertly guides us through the spiritual roots of the current conflict, explaining how Kyiv represents the birthplace of Russian Orthodox Christianity dating back to 988 CE. This religious heritage helps explain why Patriarch Kirill frames the Ukraine invasion as a "holy war" to reclaim Christianity's Russian birthplace.
Perhaps most compelling is Yancey's cautionary tale about church-state relations. After enduring severe persecution under communism, the Russian Orthodox Church welcomed Putin's support and protection - only to become an instrument of state policy rather than its moral conscience. Meanwhile, Ukraine demonstrates a different model, with Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, and Muslim communities uniting to serve those suffering from the conflict.
"The church should not be master of the state or servant of the state," Yancey reflects, citing Martin Luther King Jr. "It needs to be the conscience of the state." This wisdom challenges believers everywhere to consider how their faith intersects with political power. Rather than seeking influence through corridors of power, perhaps our most effective witness comes through consistent, compassionate action that embodies the gospel.
As Ukraine stands at a historical turning point, Christians worldwide are called to respond with prayer, compassion, and support. Whatever the geopolitical outcome, the contrast between Russia's state-aligned church and Ukraine's interfaith cooperation offers profound lessons about faith's true power in a broken world.
You can learn more from Philip Yancey through his website and books and you can find him on Facebook.
And don't forget to share this episode using hashtag #Evangelical360 and join the conversation online!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brian Stiller (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm your host, brian Stiller,and I'm pleased to share with
you another conversation withleaders, changemakers and
influencers having an impact onChristian life around the world.
We'd love for you to be a partof the podcast by sharing this
episode using hashtagEvangelical360 and by joining
(00:33):
the conversation on YouTube inthe comments below.
My guest today is Philip Yancey.
He's an author of 25 books andhas sold over 15 million copies
worldwide.
One of his most recent books,what Went Wrong, russia's Lost
Opportunity and the Path toUkraine.
(00:54):
He reflects back on the fall ofthe Soviet Union and
interactions he had in the early90s with Soviet leaders.
Given the geopoliticalrealities of today's world, I
know his experiences andinsights will be well worth your
time.
And don't forget, this episodeis part two of our conversation
with Philip Yancey, so be sureto go back and listen to part
(01:17):
one as well.
Thank you, philip, for joiningus today on Evangelical 360.
Philip Yancey (01:27):
I'm delighted to be with you talking about a most
important topic.
Brian Stiller (01:31):
We are and just for people who are listening or
watching at some point later on,I want to indicate to you the
time in which Philip and I arehaving this conversation.
It's three years into the war.
Russia has invaded the Ukraineand we don't know where this is
(01:53):
going.
We don't know how it'll beresolved, whether there'll be
peace talks.
We don't know what side willeventually survive.
So we're into this conversationat a time when there is great
uncertainty.
But, philip, you had aremarkable experience during the
fall of the Soviet empire andyou wrote this book.
(02:14):
What Went Wrong?
Russia's Lost Opportunity andthe Path to Ukraine?
You had a unique opportunity ofengaging with Russians on a
matter of faith as the empirewas falling, as Russia was
reconstituting.
How did you get involved withRussia?
Can you tell us a bit of howthat story began and how it
(02:36):
rolled through in yourexperience with them?
Philip Yancey (02:39):
Yeah, let's roll the clock back to 1989.
And that, of course, was theyear that the Berlin Wall fell
and Eastern Europe opened up ina way that it had not been for
70 years.
There was the USSR 15 differentrepublics, all part of one
government, the USSR, Russiabeing one of those.
(03:02):
And then there are othersatellite countries as well.
As soon as the Berlin Wall felland some of these republics had
the opportunity to the USSR,russia being one of those.
And then there are othersatellite countries as well.
As soon as the Berlin Wall felland some of these republics had
the opportunity to choose theirown freedom, they did so.
In fact, 14 out of 15 did thevery first year, and they used
to joke.
Maybe we should call it theUFFR, the Union of Fewer and
Fewer Republics, because no onewanted to be dominated by the
(03:25):
Soviet Union like they had beenfor the last 70 years.
Russia itself was in turmoil Fora couple of years.
There, the ruble was almostworthless, alcoholism was huge
among men particularly, thesuicide rate went up, the
economy was in free fall, theydidn't have a history of real
(03:47):
property, who had ownership overbuildings or whatever, and it
was a chaotic period.
And these various people fromHarvard and University of
Toronto, I'm sure, and placeslike that went over with these
ideas about changing the economy.
But these things take time andin the meantime there were
(04:07):
people who had no pensions orthe pensions were worthless
because the ruble was worthless.
And there was also anunderground revolution in
understanding.
For the first time, people werebeing honest about the fact
that communism has failed.
We're nowhere near the level ofwhere we should be compared to
(04:29):
the rest of Europe.
It's just we've been lied toall these years and for the
first time people were free tosay that openly.
They could admit there were nogoods on the shelves that
anybody would want.
Russia wasn't producinganything that was worthwhile to
the rest of the world except oiland gas, primarily.
(04:51):
But there was this undergroundfeeling that we have been
betrayed and we don't know whatto believe anymore.
And in the middle of thatperiod it was so chaotic that
some of the older people mayrecall that at one point Mikhail
Gorbachev, the president ofRussia, was kidnapped by the Air
(05:11):
Force and was being kept as ahostage.
Communists trying to purge thegovernment of them and he
actually fired had tanks fire onwhat was called the Russian
White House, which is a placewhere their parliament met, and
nobody knew where it was goingto come down, what was going to
(05:34):
happen.
And so for about 10 years afterthat there was a period of
chaos.
And we actually we, being agroup of Christians, got a
letter.
Who knows where the names cameup from.
I know where mine came RonNickel, a great Canadian who was
head of the Prison FellowshipInternational, was one of the
(05:57):
people on the list and he saidwell, philip is my friend as a
writer and we really need ajournalist to take a record of
this, because we had just beeninvited by both Mikhail
Gorbachev and Boris Yeltsin.
I still have the letter inRussian and also the translation
, and it asks us to come to theSoviet Union, to Russia, and
(06:21):
restore morality to our country.
And they actually quoted thescripture, they quoted the Bible
in this invitation letter andit was such a remarkable
invitation.
Of course I had to say yes, asa journalist, I grew up in the
middle of a Cold War in Atlanta,which was in striking distance
of nuclear missiles based inCuba, and Russia was always the
(06:43):
enemy, and now they were turningto us for help, using Christian
language, saying we'redeliberately going to Christians
to say what can you do to helpus?
So that began a group calledProject Christian Bridge and we
spent about 10 days there, alittle over a week.
I don't think we completelyfulfilled our goal of restoring
morality to the Soviet Union ina week.
(07:03):
I don't think we completelyfulfilled our goal of restoring
morality to the Soviet Union ina week, but we had some amazing
experiences that I wanted to getdown in print because it's kind
of an untold story.
When I tell the story to otherpeople, they're just shocked how
did I not know about this?
This is huge, and part of it isjust the bias of the media.
They judge everything in termsof the economy and military
(07:26):
strength, not moral string.
But there was a moralbattleground underway in Russia
for about a 10-year period.
There, as they're trying tofigure out, what kind of people
do we want to be?
And it was headed in onedirection we want to be open
like the West.
And it was headed in onedirection we want to be open
like the West.
But then a new president waselected, vladimir Putin, in the
(07:49):
year 2000,.
And he started turning thingsback.
He said the greatest catastrophein the 20th century was the
dissolution of the Soviet Unionand we need to rebuild our
empire, I would say, and one ofthe things he did was merge a
support base with the RussianOrthodox Church.
(08:10):
So that was the background forthis book, because, of course,
when Russia invaded Ukraine, wewere all just transfixed by out
of nowhere.
This country was just besiegedby a ground invasion, by air
invasion, and bombs and dronesfalling every night, night after
(08:31):
night, and that has continuedto this point for at least three
years, and so I wanted toexplore what happened between
that period when, for the firsttime, light was shed on the
Soviet Union and Russia.
People were being honest andmissionaries were flooding in,
people were interested inspiritual things, churches were
(08:51):
flourishing.
What happened from that to thecurrent situation, where
missionaries have been kickedout, Ukraine has been invaded.
What happened behind the scenesto cause that?
Brian Stiller (09:06):
and what did you discover?
What have you learned in askingyourself that question and
reflecting on it?
What went wrong?
Philip Yancey (09:15):
Well, to understand what really happened
in Ukraine, you have to go backto the very first Christians in
Russia, and that was in 988.
So over a thousand years ago.
I mentioned that the BerlinWall fell in 1989, but you know
that a thousand years beforethat Russia converted into a
(09:41):
Christian country, they made adecision.
There was a dictator therenamed Vladimir the Great, and in
fact, I think of the history ofRussia as a tale of three
Vladimirs Vladimir the Greatback in the 10th century.
And then Vladimir Putin and thenVolodymyr Zelensky it's just
(10:02):
the Ukrainian spelling of thesame word, Vladimir.
So all three of them with thesame name, but, my goodness,
they definitely have a differentoutlook.
So all three of them with thesame name, but, my goodness,
they definitely have a differentoutlook.
And Vladimir the Great, back inthe 10th century, was the one
who said well, he kind of had arehearsal where he brought in
representatives from differentreligions.
Should it be?
(10:22):
If we're going to convert,should it be to Christianity?
Well, let's consider what theMuslims have to say.
Should it be Roman Catholic?
Should it be Eastern Orthodox?
And they did their littleexplanation of why you should
convert this country in thisdirection.
Brian Stiller (10:38):
And he liked the.
Philip Yancey (10:39):
Orthodox.
He liked the music, he likedthe art, the icons.
So they said okay, we're goingto become a Christian country.
So everybody needs to go to theDnieper River, kiev, and be
baptized on Sunday, and tens ofthousands of people were.
This is back in the 10thcentury, and so the capital of
Ukraine, kiev, it's like theVatican to Orthodox.
(11:02):
It's where the Russian OrthodoxChurch was founded, was started
.
There weren't Christians inRussia before then, and now
there are.
And this is Rome, this is thebirthplace, and so that helps
understand a lot of the fervorthat Russia has in wanting to
(11:24):
take over Ukraine again, tooccupy it.
It's gone back and forth.
Sometimes Russia controlled it,sometimes it did not, but in
recent years it had been part ofthe USSR, part of the orbit of
Russia, but certainly notoccupied by Russia.
And then, when Vladimir Putinwanted to reverse what he saw as
(11:48):
the catastrophic effects oflosing an empire, he started
with Ukraine because it hadgreat wealth, but more than that
, it also had.
This heritage of.
This is why we are Russia, thisis who we are, and part of that
is the church, the RussianOrthodox Church, and the
(12:08):
patriarch of Russia, patriarchKirill, became one of the
biggest supporters.
We talk about church and statein places like North America.
You know what role should theyplay?
Well, in Russia they play avery tight role.
The Russian Orthodox Church wasone of the main backers of the
war in Ukraine.
Kirill said it was a holy warto recover the birthplace of
(12:32):
Christianity in Russia, and thatwas the kind of background that
you don't really read aboutwhen you read McLean's magazine
or Time magazine.
You don't read about theunderlying spiritual forces
going on, and I wanted tocapture that.
I wanted to show the motivethat Russia had in retaking and
the threat that Ukraine posedbeing open to the West and there
(12:56):
was that period of 10 yearsthere, where as many as 7,000
missionaries flooded into Russiaand then they were kicked out
about 10 years later.
So I didn't know much about that.
And yet there it is.
It's just not being reported inthe media, and I wanted to,
with some Russian experts,explore what actually happened.
Brian Stiller (13:17):
The Russian Orthodox Church in supporting
the Russian invasion, was ittrying to reinforce the
rebuilding of the Russian empireand did it see Ukraine as being
an essential part of it, andthus the religious aspect?
Given that the Russian Orthodoxwas also dominant in Ukraine,
(13:41):
Was that a motivation behind theRussian Orthodox supporting
Putin?
Philip Yancey (13:45):
Absolutely it was , and if you go to Ukraine and
visit I'm sure you've done this,brian the places they take you
are seminaries that were founded, you know, hundreds of years
ago and they were all RussianOrthodox, because that was the
one faith.
And, of course, many of themhave withdrawn from the Russian
(14:07):
Orthodox.
They're still Orthodox, butthey don't call themselves
Russian Orthodox.
They've had a definite splitthere.
Yeah, it's that old empire.
The thing is Russia.
It's almost hard to come upwith a time when Russia was not
dominated by a top-downstructure.
In the old days you had theczars and the peasants, and then
, when the Communist Party tookover, they controlled all the
(14:31):
power and ordinary people weredominated by fear and they were
afraid of being reported on bytheir neighbors, and it was just
a society.
It was an unhealthy societybased on fear, and they really
haven't had much alternative tothat.
The situation in Ukraine hasbeen different over the years.
They had this terrible periodof famine that was imposed by
(14:56):
Stalin.
Stalin just came in and tookall their grain they were the
grain basket of Europe and justtook it all away, and three to
five million people died as aresult.
So the Ukrainians all knowabout that, and they have
museums reminding people howpoorly they were treated by
Russia.
So they were dominated by theirneighbor, obviously, but they
(15:19):
had no great love for theirneighbor, and when they were
finally free to have their ownelections, they kept electing
people who were distancing fromRussia and the East and looking
to Europe for a model.
And then Vladimir Putin wouldusually intervene and cause
another election or make themrecount the votes, you know, to
(15:40):
get his people in power.
So there's always been thisdistance between the way Russia
viewed the world and the wayUkraine viewed the world.
Brian Stiller (15:48):
When you were in Russia, did you ask why the
government wouldn't turn to theRussian Orthodox for guidance on
creating the moral structuresof the empire, rather than bring
in outsiders?
Philip Yancey (16:04):
We did, yes, and one reason, a huge reason, is
that the Russian Orthodoxchurches had been infiltrated by
KGB agents, and some say allthe way up to the office of the
patriarchs.
And so you couldn't trust thepastors.
They could be KGB agents and ifyou said something you'd be
(16:24):
reported.
And there we go again, andthere we go again, and the whole
nation was just questioning whoare we and what should we
believe?
We had extraordinaryexperiences.
We did meet with Gorbachev andYeltsin and I visited some of
the prisons there and, frankly,the one meeting we had that
(16:47):
stood out most to me was when wewent to Prof, the newspaper.
The newspaper had been in aterrible decline.
The year before they had 11million subscribers and now
they're down to 700,000 becausepeople couldn't trust it.
It means the word Prof meanstruth, but they didn't believe
that it was the truth.
So we met with the editors ofPravda and it was a place I felt
(17:10):
very comfortable in I'm amagazine editor at the time and
we were sitting around a table,the kind of place where you talk
about the next day's storiesand which should be featured and
how big the headline should beand what photos to use.
And they had these clippings onthe wall, but they came to talk
about how can you Christianshelp us?
And person after person wouldsay something like this.
(17:34):
It would say we're among theelite, we were sent to the best
Marxist schools, we were truebelievers in communism.
We swallowed it completely andnow we look around us and we see
that it has failed.
Our country is in a mess and webelieve that the only way that
we can recover is to have somesort of spiritual revival.
(17:57):
We're turning to you becauseyou are Christians.
How can you help us?
How can we, as editors, expressto get people to care about
simple things like charity?
There were children who had beendamaged by the nuclear power
plant, chernobyl, that had blownup, and we've been trying to
have a charity to get people tocare about those children.
(18:17):
There's no history of charityhere.
There's no history ofcompassion.
It's every man for himself.
We need a revival in ourcountry.
We need to become more like youand in fact, when we look at
Christianity, it's so similar toour goals as Marxists.
You are against poverty, we'reagainst poverty, you're against
(18:37):
racism, we're against racism,but somehow, even though we had
similar goals, we've producedthe greatest monstrosity that
the world has ever seen.
That's a direct quote, becausejust recently Solzhenitsyn
Alexander Solzhenitsyn's books,have been published and he sets
out the fact that as many as 60million people were killed by
(18:59):
their own government in Russiaover the years.
That's the monstrosity.
And they said how can we change?
How can we change the hearts ofthe Russian people?
It was a devastated place andthat window exposed the rot at
the core and the missionariesflooded in, but the missionaries
(19:19):
were still kicked out andthey're still trying to figure
it out years later.
Brian Stiller (19:25):
So, when you look back on that experience you had
and the subsequent invasion ofUkraine by the Russian army,
what are we to take away fromthis as it relates to our own
situation in North America andthe affinity between politics
(19:46):
and religion, the evangelicalfaith particularly?
What lessons do you draw fromthe Russian experience that has
application to other parts ofthe world, maybe specifically
North America?
Philip Yancey (20:00):
That's a wonderful insight, brian, and I
can't think of a strongercautionary tale than what is
taking place in Russia.
Because you take a I'll just befrank you take an immoral act
like the invasion of aneighboring country and the
brutality with which it was done.
(20:21):
You've been probably to thecemeteries in Bushehr where
several hundred civilians werekilled with a bullet in the back
of the head, their hands tiedtogether and they're buried
there.
Or the bombs that fall onkindergartens, or they fall on
train stations that say childreninside, and just the brutality
(20:43):
trying to destroy theinfrastructure.
I mean war is terrible.
It's a terrible thing, but thisis a war almost conducted on
medieval times.
Just the way people weretortured and the Geneva
Conventions and things like thatwere just ignored.
And yet who's the biggestcheerleader?
(21:04):
Patriarch Kirill, and you cankind of understand, because for
70 years under communism, hischurches, the Russian Orthodox
churches, were persecuted.
Most of them, about 98%, wereshuttered, were closed down.
Something like 40,000 priestsdied.
So they were persecuted, surely.
But then when Putin came along,he said if you support me, I'll
(21:26):
support you, I'll rebuild yourchurches.
And he did.
He made his part of the bargaincome true.
And so some of the beautifulchurches in Moscow these days
are reconstructions of the oldchurches that have been
destroyed.
And then at the same timeyou've got the patriarch who is
(21:47):
strongly supporting the wareffort, and when people are
questioning whether it's thebest thing to do, he says no, it
is.
This is our only cause, it'sour crusade, that we must
recapture the seat of where ourchurch was founded.
You can understand why thepatriarch of the Russian
Orthodox Church welcomedcloseness to the new government,
(22:11):
because the old governmentunder Marxism had persecuted the
Russian Orthodox Church.
They had killed 40,000 priests,they had shuttered 98% of the
churches in Russia.
And suddenly Vladimir Putin issaying if you support us, we
will rebuild your churches.
And he did.
(22:31):
Some of the greatest churches,most beautiful monuments in
Russia today are churchesrebuilt by Vladimir Putin.
So you've got a loyal churchsupporting a government action
which, I'll just say frankly, isan immoral action, the way it
was carried out especially.
That's a cautionary tale,because in my country I don't
(22:52):
know what it's like so much inCanada, but there's a constant
urge on the behalf of, on thepart of evangelicals to get
close to the corridors of power.
We've seen that not justrecently in the Donald Trump era
, but long before that in thebushes.
And as evangelicals were a goodwhat 25 percent or so, maybe
(23:18):
more, of the population, theywere an important voting bloc
and they were courted bypolitics, and it feels good to
be courted.
You would certainly rather beinvited to the White House than
thrown in jail for your faith.
You know which happens in othercountries and some places and
times.
But the problem is when thechurch and state get together
(23:42):
closely, the church is alwaysthe one that suffers.
The state conquers, the statecontrols, and I've seen that,
just as an American, as somebodyfrom the United States, again
and again, and I've seen thatjust as an American, as somebody
from the United States, againand again, and I've seen how the
church gets used by thegovernment.
(24:02):
They know what they're doing.
They want to stay in power andthey want votes.
So that's why I call it acautionary tale.
We need to learn from theexperience that has played out
in tragic ways between Russiaand Ukraine.
Brian Stiller (24:18):
And those lessons that come out of your own
experience, years ago in Russiaand now living in a country
where the evangelical communityhas shown its interest in being
in the corridors of power.
What's your best counsel toyoung people who are looking to
(24:38):
understand how their faithintercepts and integrates in
their own country?
Philip Yancey (24:45):
Martin Luther King Jr used to say this.
He said the church should notbe a master of the state or a
servant of the state.
It needs to be the conscienceof the state.
It's a power source that isrooted, not based on are we a
(25:05):
power or not, but based on howmuch like Jesus is the country
around us.
And we've talked about somenegatives going on here, but
I've seen some positives too.
Kazakhstan would be a goodexample.
I was in Kazakhstan a number ofyears ago and I met these
delightful people who were in atraining session with Campus
(25:28):
Crusade, now called CRU, and Iwent around and just asked
people how did you come to faith?
Now?
These were actually CRUmissionaries at the time, and
every one of them told me thesame story.
They told me about their sicksociety.
Their father was an alcoholicwho would beat the mother, and
(25:49):
the economy was terrible.
They didn't even have runningwater.
It was freezing cold.
And then communism fell in 1989, and they didn't know what to
believe anymore.
And then somebody came up tothem on a university campus and
gave them this tract called theFour Spiritual Laws and said God
loves you and has a plan foryou.
(26:10):
And they had never heardanything like that.
It's almost like they memorizedthe same testimony.
But these were the true storiesI checked about and in that
case they used that opportunityof being powerless to find.
I'm not going to take myidentity on how I'm ranked in
(26:31):
the state.
I'm going to take my identityon how God sees me, not how
Kazakhstan sees me.
And it's still going on andI've seen numerous people from
that time I've kept in touchwith go to places like Turkey
and Uzbekistan and Tajikistanand Iran even, and witness for
(26:52):
the gospel and a name that I'msure you know, brian John
Sigurian in Lebanon.
I've been to Lebanon severaltimes visiting John with Youth
for Christ and at the time I wasthere last, there were like
10,000 refugee tents in this onelittle encampment and these are
(27:17):
the UN kind of padded tentsthey put up and people had been
in them for a couple of yearsactually, and the kids are
allowed to work.
You can't get a job there ifyou're a refugee and they really
had no school teaching them, sothey would just hang around all
day and Youth for Christstarted building basketball
courts and education centers andteaching crafts and skills to
(27:41):
the, especially the youngerrefugees, and the Muslim
activists didn't like this andthey came charging into the imam
and said do you realize what'shappening?
These Christians out there whoare being very careful not to
talk about the gospel unlessasked, but these Christians out
there are doing all these thingsfor our people.
(28:02):
You should shut that down.
And the imam said what are youdoing for our people?
These people are living outtheir faith.
And that became for me abeautiful model of just simply
going about acting like Jesuswants us to, caring for the
refugees and looking out for theleast of the people in the
(28:23):
world, people with dire needs.
And we've seen that wherevermissionaries go, like in Africa
we're bearing the fruits now ofa couple of centuries of
selfless work by missionarieswho go and establish clinics and
hospitals and schools andeducation centers is simply
acting like Jesus wants us toact and it does get noticed and
(28:46):
it does have a long-term effect.
You see that again and again inAfrican countries.
So I guess that would be myadvice or my understanding of
the role of the church.
I frankly get very nervous whenthe church gets close to the
people in power because againthey're the ones who come out on
(29:07):
top.
The church almost alwayssuffers.
But if we're consistent todoing exactly what Jesus told us
to do, the world will noticeand, as Jesus said, it's like
grass and wheat and taresgrowing up together.
You leave the judgments to me.
You just go around and plantyour seed and do what the
(29:28):
kingdom is supposed to do.
All the images of the kingdomthat I read in the Testament are
small things to do.
All the images of the kingdomthat I read in the gesturing are
small things, like yeast andbread, like salt and meat, just
little things.
But it can affect the entiresociety and we in North America
have lived through that.
We've seen it happen again andagain and still is happening
with many organizations who arejust trying to do the kingdom
(29:51):
without work, and that's our jobjust trying to do the kingdom
of God work, and that's our job.
Sometimes it is noticed by therest of the world and sometimes
it's not, but eventually, if weare indeed the conscience of the
state, people are going to saythat's why their society works
better than our society.
It's got the Christian roots,it's got the foundation that
(30:13):
Russia is still seeking for.
Brian Stiller (30:14):
Frankly, I was in Kiev with a patriarch some time
ago and he told me of a storyof a patriarch back in the 30s
and the Ukraine was being wooedby Stalin of Russia and Hitler
of Germany.
And he said the patriarchdidn't know which way to go.
And he said, when you're inthat kind of moment of confusion
(30:37):
, in that place of tension, whenyou don't know what to do, his
advice was love children.
In other words, with theconundrums of political
opportunity or opposition orpressure, he Do good.
Allow the power of the gospelto move you to do what is good
(31:01):
to help people in that moment,and don't be constrained by the
geopolitical issues, but allowChrist to use you in serving and
meeting the needs of people.
And it seems to me that intoday's world of enormous
political tension, that theadvice that you have given of
(31:24):
being the salt, being the light,being the yeast, caring for
people in ways that we can, thatour hands can find to do today,
is a way for us to express thegospel in our current world.
Philip Yancey (31:49):
And you know, brian, I know you're aware of
this, but it's so stark inUkraine, the difference, because
in Russia they kicked out allthe other missionaries, some of
them settled in Ukraine, andUkraine became known as the
Bible Belt of Eastern Europeformerly of Eastern Europe,
formerly Communist EasternEurope.
And when the war broke out,what happened was the churches
came together.
So you've got Pentecostals andCatholics and Orthodox all
(32:11):
working together and they woulddivide.
Okay, you've got a seminaryhere, so you've got a cafeteria
so you can feed people.
We've got some other skillshere.
We've got one organization thatcame up with this small charcoal
stove that you could actuallyheat your house with and cook on
at the same time, and it wasbeautiful to see all these
(32:33):
different denominations workingtogether.
In Russia there were none left,it was just the Orthodox Church
pretty much.
And in Ukraine, as a spillovereffect, the churches came
together.
They didn't say it wasn't aturf war situation.
They said we're all facing thesame disaster and let's divide
up.
You deal with the orphans, youhelp out with ways to transport
(32:56):
people who need to get out ofthe country, like mothers and
pregnant women and mothers withyoung children, and I'm sure you
saw that in person as youvisited.
Brian Stiller (33:07):
It was remarkable to see the Orthodox Roman
Catholic, the variousevangelicals, baptists,
pentecostals, along with theMuslim community come together
and form a cooperative religiousresponse both to what the
government was doing and theissues that came about by the
(33:30):
invasion.
And the cooperation among thesevarious religious groups was
astounding and it was hearteningto see how people could come
together in those difficultmoments.
Philip Yancey (33:44):
Yeah, I had exactly the same reaction.
It's sad.
Sometimes it takes greatsuffering to bring the church
together in a unified way.
We know that that's what Jesuswants from us, because at his
very last prayer with thedisciples, at the last supper
table, you said if I could haveone thing I wish the church
(34:09):
would show my people would showthe same unity that we
experience in the Trinity, whichis quite a prayer when you come
to think of it.
Brian Stiller (34:16):
It is Philip, and thank you so much for being
with us today on Evangelical 360.
Philip Yancey (34:22):
Well, I love what you're doing and I thank you
for spreading the message, and Ihope people, no matter what
happens in the next months andyears, still keep Ukraine on
their prayer list.
It's a country that is in ahinge in their history.
We don't know exactly which wayit's going to go, but it's
absorbed great suffering andthey deserve better than that,
(34:45):
and we Christians should leadthe way in responding with love
and compassion.
Brian Stiller (34:50):
Thank you, philip , for joining us today.
Your life experience, writingand wisdom has helped us better
engage with the realities of ourworld, and thank you for being
a part of the podcast.
Be sure to share this episodeusing hashtag evangelical360 and
(35:10):
join the conversation onYouTube.
If you'd like to learn moreabout today's guest, be sure to
check the show notes for linksand info, and if you haven't
already received my free e-bookand newsletter, please go to
brianstillercom.
Thanks again, until next time.
(35:35):
Don't miss the next interview.
Be sure to subscribe toEvangelical 360 on YouTube.
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm your host, brian Stiller,and I'm pleased to share with
you another conversation withleaders, changemakers and
influencers having an impact onChristian life around the world.
We'd love for you to be a partof the podcast by sharing this
episode using hashtagEvangelical360 and by joining
(00:33):
the conversation on YouTube inthe comments below.
My guest today is Philip Yancey.
He's an author of 25 books andhas sold over 15 million copies
worldwide.
One of his most recent books,what Went Wrong, russia's Lost
Opportunity and the Path toUkraine.
(00:54):
He reflects back on the fall ofthe Soviet Union and
interactions he had in the early90s with Soviet leaders.
Given the geopoliticalrealities of today's world, I
know his experiences andinsights will be well worth your
time.
And don't forget, this episodeis part two of our conversation
with Philip Yancey, so be sureto go back and listen to part
(01:17):
one as well.
Thank you, philip, for joiningus today on Evangelical 360.
Philip Yancey (01:27):
I'm delighted to be with you talking about a most
important topic.
Brian Stiller (01:31):
We are and just for people who are listening or
watching at some point later on,I want to indicate to you the
time in which Philip and I arehaving this conversation.
It's three years into the war.
Russia has invaded the Ukraineand we don't know where this is
(01:53):
going.
We don't know how it'll beresolved, whether there'll be
peace talks.
We don't know what side willeventually survive.
So we're into this conversationat a time when there is great
uncertainty.
But, philip, you had aremarkable experience during the
fall of the Soviet empire andyou wrote this book.
(02:14):
What Went Wrong?
Russia's Lost Opportunity andthe Path to Ukraine?
You had a unique opportunity ofengaging with Russians on a
matter of faith as the empirewas falling, as Russia was
reconstituting.
How did you get involved withRussia?
Can you tell us a bit of howthat story began and how it
(02:36):
rolled through in yourexperience with them?
Philip Yancey (02:39):
Yeah, let's roll the clock back to 1989.
And that, of course, was theyear that the Berlin Wall fell
and Eastern Europe opened up ina way that it had not been for
70 years.
There was the USSR 15 differentrepublics, all part of one
government, the USSR, Russiabeing one of those.
(03:02):
And then there are othersatellite countries as well.
As soon as the Berlin Wall felland some of these republics had
the opportunity to the USSR,russia being one of those.
And then there are othersatellite countries as well.
As soon as the Berlin Wall felland some of these republics had
the opportunity to choose theirown freedom, they did so.
In fact, 14 out of 15 did thevery first year, and they used
to joke.
Maybe we should call it theUFFR, the Union of Fewer and
Fewer Republics, because no onewanted to be dominated by the
(03:25):
Soviet Union like they had beenfor the last 70 years.
Russia itself was in turmoil Fora couple of years.
There, the ruble was almostworthless, alcoholism was huge
among men particularly, thesuicide rate went up, the
economy was in free fall, theydidn't have a history of real
(03:47):
property, who had ownership overbuildings or whatever, and it
was a chaotic period.
And these various people fromHarvard and University of
Toronto, I'm sure, and placeslike that went over with these
ideas about changing the economy.
But these things take time andin the meantime there were
(04:07):
people who had no pensions orthe pensions were worthless
because the ruble was worthless.
And there was also anunderground revolution in
understanding.
For the first time, people werebeing honest about the fact
that communism has failed.
We're nowhere near the level ofwhere we should be compared to
(04:29):
the rest of Europe.
It's just we've been lied toall these years and for the
first time people were free tosay that openly.
They could admit there were nogoods on the shelves that
anybody would want.
Russia wasn't producinganything that was worthwhile to
the rest of the world except oiland gas, primarily.
(04:51):
But there was this undergroundfeeling that we have been
betrayed and we don't know whatto believe anymore.
And in the middle of thatperiod it was so chaotic that
some of the older people mayrecall that at one point Mikhail
Gorbachev, the president ofRussia, was kidnapped by the Air
(05:11):
Force and was being kept as ahostage.
Communists trying to purge thegovernment of them and he
actually fired had tanks fire onwhat was called the Russian
White House, which is a placewhere their parliament met, and
nobody knew where it was goingto come down, what was going to
(05:34):
happen.
And so for about 10 years afterthat there was a period of
chaos.
And we actually we, being agroup of Christians, got a
letter.
Who knows where the names cameup from.
I know where mine came RonNickel, a great Canadian who was
head of the Prison FellowshipInternational, was one of the
(05:57):
people on the list and he saidwell, philip is my friend as a
writer and we really need ajournalist to take a record of
this, because we had just beeninvited by both Mikhail
Gorbachev and Boris Yeltsin.
I still have the letter inRussian and also the translation
, and it asks us to come to theSoviet Union, to Russia, and
(06:21):
restore morality to our country.
And they actually quoted thescripture, they quoted the Bible
in this invitation letter andit was such a remarkable
invitation.
Of course I had to say yes, asa journalist, I grew up in the
middle of a Cold War in Atlanta,which was in striking distance
of nuclear missiles based inCuba, and Russia was always the
(06:43):
enemy, and now they were turningto us for help, using Christian
language, saying we'redeliberately going to Christians
to say what can you do to helpus?
So that began a group calledProject Christian Bridge and we
spent about 10 days there, alittle over a week.
I don't think we completelyfulfilled our goal of restoring
morality to the Soviet Union ina week.
(07:03):
I don't think we completelyfulfilled our goal of restoring
morality to the Soviet Union ina week, but we had some amazing
experiences that I wanted to getdown in print because it's kind
of an untold story.
When I tell the story to otherpeople, they're just shocked how
did I not know about this?
This is huge, and part of it isjust the bias of the media.
They judge everything in termsof the economy and military
(07:26):
strength, not moral string.
But there was a moralbattleground underway in Russia
for about a 10-year period.
There, as they're trying tofigure out, what kind of people
do we want to be?
And it was headed in onedirection we want to be open
like the West.
And it was headed in onedirection we want to be open
like the West.
But then a new president waselected, vladimir Putin, in the
(07:49):
year 2000,.
And he started turning thingsback.
He said the greatest catastrophein the 20th century was the
dissolution of the Soviet Unionand we need to rebuild our
empire, I would say, and one ofthe things he did was merge a
support base with the RussianOrthodox Church.
(08:10):
So that was the background forthis book, because, of course,
when Russia invaded Ukraine, wewere all just transfixed by out
of nowhere.
This country was just besiegedby a ground invasion, by air
invasion, and bombs and dronesfalling every night, night after
(08:31):
night, and that has continuedto this point for at least three
years, and so I wanted toexplore what happened between
that period when, for the firsttime, light was shed on the
Soviet Union and Russia.
People were being honest andmissionaries were flooding in,
people were interested inspiritual things, churches were
(08:51):
flourishing.
What happened from that to thecurrent situation, where
missionaries have been kickedout, Ukraine has been invaded.
What happened behind the scenesto cause that?
Brian Stiller (09:06):
and what did you discover?
What have you learned in askingyourself that question and
reflecting on it?
What went wrong?
Philip Yancey (09:15):
Well, to understand what really happened
in Ukraine, you have to go backto the very first Christians in
Russia, and that was in 988.
So over a thousand years ago.
I mentioned that the BerlinWall fell in 1989, but you know
that a thousand years beforethat Russia converted into a
(09:41):
Christian country, they made adecision.
There was a dictator therenamed Vladimir the Great, and in
fact, I think of the history ofRussia as a tale of three
Vladimirs Vladimir the Greatback in the 10th century.
And then Vladimir Putin and thenVolodymyr Zelensky it's just
(10:02):
the Ukrainian spelling of thesame word, Vladimir.
So all three of them with thesame name, but, my goodness,
they definitely have a differentoutlook.
So all three of them with thesame name, but, my goodness,
they definitely have a differentoutlook.
And Vladimir the Great, back inthe 10th century, was the one
who said well, he kind of had arehearsal where he brought in
representatives from differentreligions.
Should it be?
(10:22):
If we're going to convert,should it be to Christianity?
Well, let's consider what theMuslims have to say.
Should it be Roman Catholic?
Should it be Eastern Orthodox?
And they did their littleexplanation of why you should
convert this country in thisdirection.
Brian Stiller (10:38):
And he liked the.
Philip Yancey (10:39):
Orthodox.
He liked the music, he likedthe art, the icons.
So they said okay, we're goingto become a Christian country.
So everybody needs to go to theDnieper River, kiev, and be
baptized on Sunday, and tens ofthousands of people were.
This is back in the 10thcentury, and so the capital of
Ukraine, kiev, it's like theVatican to Orthodox.
(11:02):
It's where the Russian OrthodoxChurch was founded, was started
.
There weren't Christians inRussia before then, and now
there are.
And this is Rome, this is thebirthplace, and so that helps
understand a lot of the fervorthat Russia has in wanting to
(11:24):
take over Ukraine again, tooccupy it.
It's gone back and forth.
Sometimes Russia controlled it,sometimes it did not, but in
recent years it had been part ofthe USSR, part of the orbit of
Russia, but certainly notoccupied by Russia.
And then, when Vladimir Putinwanted to reverse what he saw as
(11:48):
the catastrophic effects oflosing an empire, he started
with Ukraine because it hadgreat wealth, but more than that
, it also had.
This heritage of.
This is why we are Russia, thisis who we are, and part of that
is the church, the RussianOrthodox Church, and the
(12:08):
patriarch of Russia, patriarchKirill, became one of the
biggest supporters.
We talk about church and statein places like North America.
You know what role should theyplay?
Well, in Russia they play avery tight role.
The Russian Orthodox Church wasone of the main backers of the
war in Ukraine.
Kirill said it was a holy warto recover the birthplace of
(12:32):
Christianity in Russia, and thatwas the kind of background that
you don't really read aboutwhen you read McLean's magazine
or Time magazine.
You don't read about theunderlying spiritual forces
going on, and I wanted tocapture that.
I wanted to show the motivethat Russia had in retaking and
the threat that Ukraine posedbeing open to the West and there
(12:56):
was that period of 10 yearsthere, where as many as 7,000
missionaries flooded into Russiaand then they were kicked out
about 10 years later.
So I didn't know much about that.
And yet there it is.
It's just not being reported inthe media, and I wanted to,
with some Russian experts,explore what actually happened.
Brian Stiller (13:17):
The Russian Orthodox Church in supporting
the Russian invasion, was ittrying to reinforce the
rebuilding of the Russian empireand did it see Ukraine as being
an essential part of it, andthus the religious aspect?
Given that the Russian Orthodoxwas also dominant in Ukraine,
(13:41):
Was that a motivation behind theRussian Orthodox supporting
Putin?
Philip Yancey (13:45):
Absolutely it was , and if you go to Ukraine and
visit I'm sure you've done this,brian the places they take you
are seminaries that were founded, you know, hundreds of years
ago and they were all RussianOrthodox, because that was the
one faith.
And, of course, many of themhave withdrawn from the Russian
(14:07):
Orthodox.
They're still Orthodox, butthey don't call themselves
Russian Orthodox.
They've had a definite splitthere.
Yeah, it's that old empire.
The thing is Russia.
It's almost hard to come upwith a time when Russia was not
dominated by a top-downstructure.
In the old days you had theczars and the peasants, and then
, when the Communist Party tookover, they controlled all the
(14:31):
power and ordinary people weredominated by fear and they were
afraid of being reported on bytheir neighbors, and it was just
a society.
It was an unhealthy societybased on fear, and they really
haven't had much alternative tothat.
The situation in Ukraine hasbeen different over the years.
They had this terrible periodof famine that was imposed by
(14:56):
Stalin.
Stalin just came in and tookall their grain they were the
grain basket of Europe and justtook it all away, and three to
five million people died as aresult.
So the Ukrainians all knowabout that, and they have
museums reminding people howpoorly they were treated by
Russia.
So they were dominated by theirneighbor, obviously, but they
(15:19):
had no great love for theirneighbor, and when they were
finally free to have their ownelections, they kept electing
people who were distancing fromRussia and the East and looking
to Europe for a model.
And then Vladimir Putin wouldusually intervene and cause
another election or make themrecount the votes, you know, to
(15:40):
get his people in power.
So there's always been thisdistance between the way Russia
viewed the world and the wayUkraine viewed the world.
Brian Stiller (15:48):
When you were in Russia, did you ask why the
government wouldn't turn to theRussian Orthodox for guidance on
creating the moral structuresof the empire, rather than bring
in outsiders?
Philip Yancey (16:04):
We did, yes, and one reason, a huge reason, is
that the Russian Orthodoxchurches had been infiltrated by
KGB agents, and some say allthe way up to the office of the
patriarchs.
And so you couldn't trust thepastors.
They could be KGB agents and ifyou said something you'd be
(16:24):
reported.
And there we go again, andthere we go again, and the whole
nation was just questioning whoare we and what should we
believe?
We had extraordinaryexperiences.
We did meet with Gorbachev andYeltsin and I visited some of
the prisons there and, frankly,the one meeting we had that
(16:47):
stood out most to me was when wewent to Prof, the newspaper.
The newspaper had been in aterrible decline.
The year before they had 11million subscribers and now
they're down to 700,000 becausepeople couldn't trust it.
It means the word Prof meanstruth, but they didn't believe
that it was the truth.
So we met with the editors ofPravda and it was a place I felt
(17:10):
very comfortable in I'm amagazine editor at the time and
we were sitting around a table,the kind of place where you talk
about the next day's storiesand which should be featured and
how big the headline should beand what photos to use.
And they had these clippings onthe wall, but they came to talk
about how can you Christianshelp us?
And person after person wouldsay something like this.
(17:34):
It would say we're among theelite, we were sent to the best
Marxist schools, we were truebelievers in communism.
We swallowed it completely andnow we look around us and we see
that it has failed.
Our country is in a mess and webelieve that the only way that
we can recover is to have somesort of spiritual revival.
(17:57):
We're turning to you becauseyou are Christians.
How can you help us?
How can we, as editors, expressto get people to care about
simple things like charity?
There were children who had beendamaged by the nuclear power
plant, chernobyl, that had blownup, and we've been trying to
have a charity to get people tocare about those children.
(18:17):
There's no history of charityhere.
There's no history ofcompassion.
It's every man for himself.
We need a revival in ourcountry.
We need to become more like youand in fact, when we look at
Christianity, it's so similar toour goals as Marxists.
You are against poverty, we'reagainst poverty, you're against
(18:37):
racism, we're against racism,but somehow, even though we had
similar goals, we've producedthe greatest monstrosity that
the world has ever seen.
That's a direct quote, becausejust recently Solzhenitsyn
Alexander Solzhenitsyn's books,have been published and he sets
out the fact that as many as 60million people were killed by
(18:59):
their own government in Russiaover the years.
That's the monstrosity.
And they said how can we change?
How can we change the hearts ofthe Russian people?
It was a devastated place andthat window exposed the rot at
the core and the missionariesflooded in, but the missionaries
(19:19):
were still kicked out andthey're still trying to figure
it out years later.
Brian Stiller (19:25):
So, when you look back on that experience you had
and the subsequent invasion ofUkraine by the Russian army,
what are we to take away fromthis as it relates to our own
situation in North America andthe affinity between politics
(19:46):
and religion, the evangelicalfaith particularly?
What lessons do you draw fromthe Russian experience that has
application to other parts ofthe world, maybe specifically
North America?
Philip Yancey (20:00):
That's a wonderful insight, brian, and I
can't think of a strongercautionary tale than what is
taking place in Russia.
Because you take a I'll just befrank you take an immoral act
like the invasion of aneighboring country and the
brutality with which it was done.
(20:21):
You've been probably to thecemeteries in Bushehr where
several hundred civilians werekilled with a bullet in the back
of the head, their hands tiedtogether and they're buried
there.
Or the bombs that fall onkindergartens, or they fall on
train stations that say childreninside, and just the brutality
(20:43):
trying to destroy theinfrastructure.
I mean war is terrible.
It's a terrible thing, but thisis a war almost conducted on
medieval times.
Just the way people weretortured and the Geneva
Conventions and things like thatwere just ignored.
And yet who's the biggestcheerleader?
(21:04):
Patriarch Kirill, and you cankind of understand, because for
70 years under communism, hischurches, the Russian Orthodox
churches, were persecuted.
Most of them, about 98%, wereshuttered, were closed down.
Something like 40,000 priestsdied.
So they were persecuted, surely.
But then when Putin came along,he said if you support me, I'll
(21:26):
support you, I'll rebuild yourchurches.
And he did.
He made his part of the bargaincome true.
And so some of the beautifulchurches in Moscow these days
are reconstructions of the oldchurches that have been
destroyed.
And then at the same timeyou've got the patriarch who is
(21:47):
strongly supporting the wareffort, and when people are
questioning whether it's thebest thing to do, he says no, it
is.
This is our only cause, it'sour crusade, that we must
recapture the seat of where ourchurch was founded.
You can understand why thepatriarch of the Russian
Orthodox Church welcomedcloseness to the new government,
(22:11):
because the old governmentunder Marxism had persecuted the
Russian Orthodox Church.
They had killed 40,000 priests,they had shuttered 98% of the
churches in Russia.
And suddenly Vladimir Putin issaying if you support us, we
will rebuild your churches.
And he did.
(22:31):
Some of the greatest churches,most beautiful monuments in
Russia today are churchesrebuilt by Vladimir Putin.
So you've got a loyal churchsupporting a government action
which, I'll just say frankly, isan immoral action, the way it
was carried out especially.
That's a cautionary tale,because in my country I don't
(22:52):
know what it's like so much inCanada, but there's a constant
urge on the behalf of, on thepart of evangelicals to get
close to the corridors of power.
We've seen that not justrecently in the Donald Trump era
, but long before that in thebushes.
And as evangelicals were a goodwhat 25 percent or so, maybe
(23:18):
more, of the population, theywere an important voting bloc
and they were courted bypolitics, and it feels good to
be courted.
You would certainly rather beinvited to the White House than
thrown in jail for your faith.
You know which happens in othercountries and some places and
times.
But the problem is when thechurch and state get together
(23:42):
closely, the church is alwaysthe one that suffers.
The state conquers, the statecontrols, and I've seen that,
just as an American, as somebodyfrom the United States, again
and again, and I've seen thatjust as an American, as somebody
from the United States, againand again, and I've seen how the
church gets used by thegovernment.
(24:02):
They know what they're doing.
They want to stay in power andthey want votes.
So that's why I call it acautionary tale.
We need to learn from theexperience that has played out
in tragic ways between Russiaand Ukraine.
Brian Stiller (24:18):
And those lessons that come out of your own
experience, years ago in Russiaand now living in a country
where the evangelical communityhas shown its interest in being
in the corridors of power.
What's your best counsel toyoung people who are looking to
(24:38):
understand how their faithintercepts and integrates in
their own country?
Philip Yancey (24:45):
Martin Luther King Jr used to say this.
He said the church should notbe a master of the state or a
servant of the state.
It needs to be the conscienceof the state.
It's a power source that isrooted, not based on are we a
(25:05):
power or not, but based on howmuch like Jesus is the country
around us.
And we've talked about somenegatives going on here, but
I've seen some positives too.
Kazakhstan would be a goodexample.
I was in Kazakhstan a number ofyears ago and I met these
delightful people who were in atraining session with Campus
(25:28):
Crusade, now called CRU, and Iwent around and just asked
people how did you come to faith?
Now?
These were actually CRUmissionaries at the time, and
every one of them told me thesame story.
They told me about their sicksociety.
Their father was an alcoholicwho would beat the mother, and
(25:49):
the economy was terrible.
They didn't even have runningwater.
It was freezing cold.
And then communism fell in 1989, and they didn't know what to
believe anymore.
And then somebody came up tothem on a university campus and
gave them this tract called theFour Spiritual Laws and said God
loves you and has a plan foryou.
(26:10):
And they had never heardanything like that.
It's almost like they memorizedthe same testimony.
But these were the true storiesI checked about and in that
case they used that opportunityof being powerless to find.
I'm not going to take myidentity on how I'm ranked in
(26:31):
the state.
I'm going to take my identityon how God sees me, not how
Kazakhstan sees me.
And it's still going on andI've seen numerous people from
that time I've kept in touchwith go to places like Turkey
and Uzbekistan and Tajikistanand Iran even, and witness for
(26:52):
the gospel and a name that I'msure you know, brian John
Sigurian in Lebanon.
I've been to Lebanon severaltimes visiting John with Youth
for Christ and at the time I wasthere last, there were like
10,000 refugee tents in this onelittle encampment and these are
(27:17):
the UN kind of padded tentsthey put up and people had been
in them for a couple of yearsactually, and the kids are
allowed to work.
You can't get a job there ifyou're a refugee and they really
had no school teaching them, sothey would just hang around all
day and Youth for Christstarted building basketball
courts and education centers andteaching crafts and skills to
(27:41):
the, especially the youngerrefugees, and the Muslim
activists didn't like this andthey came charging into the imam
and said do you realize what'shappening?
These Christians out there whoare being very careful not to
talk about the gospel unlessasked, but these Christians out
there are doing all these thingsfor our people.
(28:02):
You should shut that down.
And the imam said what are youdoing for our people?
These people are living outtheir faith.
And that became for me abeautiful model of just simply
going about acting like Jesuswants us to, caring for the
refugees and looking out for theleast of the people in the
(28:23):
world, people with dire needs.
And we've seen that wherevermissionaries go, like in Africa
we're bearing the fruits now ofa couple of centuries of
selfless work by missionarieswho go and establish clinics and
hospitals and schools andeducation centers is simply
acting like Jesus wants us toact and it does get noticed and
(28:46):
it does have a long-term effect.
You see that again and again inAfrican countries.
So I guess that would be myadvice or my understanding of
the role of the church.
I frankly get very nervous whenthe church gets close to the
people in power because againthey're the ones who come out on
(29:07):
top.
The church almost alwayssuffers.
But if we're consistent todoing exactly what Jesus told us
to do, the world will noticeand, as Jesus said, it's like
grass and wheat and taresgrowing up together.
You leave the judgments to me.
You just go around and plantyour seed and do what the
(29:28):
kingdom is supposed to do.
All the images of the kingdomthat I read in the Testament are
small things to do.
All the images of the kingdomthat I read in the gesturing are
small things, like yeast andbread, like salt and meat, just
little things.
But it can affect the entiresociety and we in North America
have lived through that.
We've seen it happen again andagain and still is happening
with many organizations who arejust trying to do the kingdom
(29:51):
without work, and that's our jobjust trying to do the kingdom
of God work, and that's our job.
Sometimes it is noticed by therest of the world and sometimes
it's not, but eventually, if weare indeed the conscience of the
state, people are going to saythat's why their society works
better than our society.
It's got the Christian roots,it's got the foundation that
(30:13):
Russia is still seeking for.
Brian Stiller (30:14):
Frankly, I was in Kiev with a patriarch some time
ago and he told me of a storyof a patriarch back in the 30s
and the Ukraine was being wooedby Stalin of Russia and Hitler
of Germany.
And he said the patriarchdidn't know which way to go.
And he said, when you're inthat kind of moment of confusion
(30:37):
, in that place of tension, whenyou don't know what to do, his
advice was love children.
In other words, with theconundrums of political
opportunity or opposition orpressure, he Do good.
Allow the power of the gospelto move you to do what is good
(31:01):
to help people in that moment,and don't be constrained by the
geopolitical issues, but allowChrist to use you in serving and
meeting the needs of people.
And it seems to me that intoday's world of enormous
political tension, that theadvice that you have given of
(31:24):
being the salt, being the light,being the yeast, caring for
people in ways that we can, thatour hands can find to do today,
is a way for us to express thegospel in our current world.
Philip Yancey (31:49):
And you know, brian, I know you're aware of
this, but it's so stark inUkraine, the difference, because
in Russia they kicked out allthe other missionaries, some of
them settled in Ukraine, andUkraine became known as the
Bible Belt of Eastern Europeformerly of Eastern Europe,
formerly Communist EasternEurope.
And when the war broke out,what happened was the churches
came together.
So you've got Pentecostals andCatholics and Orthodox all
(32:11):
working together and they woulddivide.
Okay, you've got a seminaryhere, so you've got a cafeteria
so you can feed people.
We've got some other skillshere.
We've got one organization thatcame up with this small charcoal
stove that you could actuallyheat your house with and cook on
at the same time, and it wasbeautiful to see all these
(32:33):
different denominations workingtogether.
In Russia there were none left,it was just the Orthodox Church
pretty much.
And in Ukraine, as a spillovereffect, the churches came
together.
They didn't say it wasn't aturf war situation.
They said we're all facing thesame disaster and let's divide
up.
You deal with the orphans, youhelp out with ways to transport
(32:56):
people who need to get out ofthe country, like mothers and
pregnant women and mothers withyoung children, and I'm sure you
saw that in person as youvisited.
Brian Stiller (33:07):
It was remarkable to see the Orthodox Roman
Catholic, the variousevangelicals, baptists,
pentecostals, along with theMuslim community come together
and form a cooperative religiousresponse both to what the
government was doing and theissues that came about by the
(33:30):
invasion.
And the cooperation among thesevarious religious groups was
astounding and it was hearteningto see how people could come
together in those difficultmoments.
Philip Yancey (33:44):
Yeah, I had exactly the same reaction.
It's sad.
Sometimes it takes greatsuffering to bring the church
together in a unified way.
We know that that's what Jesuswants from us, because at his
very last prayer with thedisciples, at the last supper
table, you said if I could haveone thing I wish the church
(34:09):
would show my people would showthe same unity that we
experience in the Trinity, whichis quite a prayer when you come
to think of it.
Brian Stiller (34:16):
It is Philip, and thank you so much for being
with us today on Evangelical 360.
Philip Yancey (34:22):
Well, I love what you're doing and I thank you
for spreading the message, and Ihope people, no matter what
happens in the next months andyears, still keep Ukraine on
their prayer list.
It's a country that is in ahinge in their history.
We don't know exactly which wayit's going to go, but it's
absorbed great suffering andthey deserve better than that,
(34:45):
and we Christians should leadthe way in responding with love
and compassion.
Brian Stiller (34:50):
Thank you, philip , for joining us today.
Your life experience, writingand wisdom has helped us better
engage with the realities of ourworld, and thank you for being
a part of the podcast.
Be sure to share this episodeusing hashtag evangelical360 and
(35:10):
join the conversation onYouTube.
If you'd like to learn moreabout today's guest, be sure to
check the show notes for linksand info, and if you haven't
already received my free e-bookand newsletter, please go to
brianstillercom.
Thanks again, until next time.
(35:35):
Don't miss the next interview.
Be sure to subscribe toEvangelical 360 on YouTube.
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