May 23, 2025 • 36 mins
What happens to people after they're sentenced and the news cycle moves on? In this profound and eye-opening conversation, Stacey Campbell, President and CEO of Prison Fellowship Canada, pulls back the curtain on a world most of us never see.
Stacey's remarkable journey began at just 15 years old when a chance connection with Prison Fellowship in its early days planted seeds that would later bloom into her life's calling. Now, with over 15 years of leadership, she offers rare insights into Canada's prison system and the transformative work happening within its walls.
The statistics might surprise you. Contrary to popular belief, 75% of Canadian inmates are serving time for drug-related offenses, not violent crimes. Perhaps most troubling is the dramatic overrepresentation of Indigenous people – making up only 5% of Canada's population but 33-40% of male inmates and a staggering 50% of female prisoners.
Through powerful stories of transformation, Stacey reveals how Prison Fellowship's programs work through a three-part process of encounter, repair, and transformation. Their restorative practice brings surrogate victims together with offenders, creating spaces for healing conversations that answer long-held questions and foster genuine accountability. "We don't bring Jesus into prison," Stacey explains. "Jesus is already there. We just highlight him and say, 'See, there he is.'"
Beyond prison walls, their Bridge Care program supports former inmates transitioning back to society, while Angel Tree connects thousands of children with their incarcerated parents through Christmas gifts. These connections prove crucial not just for emotional wellbeing but for breaking intergenerational cycles of crime.
Whether you're interested in criminal justice reform, faith-based rehabilitation, or simply want to understand a forgotten corner of our society, this conversation challenges assumptions and inspires hope for lives being restored and redeemed in places we too often prefer to ignore.
You can learn more about Stacey Campbell and Prison Fellowship Canada through their website and Facebook.
And you can share this episode using hashtag #Evangelical360 and join the conversation online!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brian Stiller (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm your host, brian Stiller,and I'm pleased to share with
you another conversation withleaders, changemakers and
influencers impacting Christianlife around the world.
My guest today President andCEO of Prison Fellowship Canada.
Some may be familiar withPrison Fellowship thanks to the
(00:32):
life and legacy of Americanfounder Chuck Colson, but many
of us know little about theprison system itself.
We hear about people beingsentenced in the news, maybe the
topic of incarceration comes upin conversation, but for the
most part, we know little aboutthe human beings on the inside.
Well, stacey knows all aboutthe sights and sounds on the
(00:55):
inside and what theseindividuals experience.
Her service to PrisonFellowship Canada for over 15
years is an inspiration andchallenge to us all.
Stacey, it's wonderful to haveyou here today on Evangelical
360.
Stacey Campbell (01:09):
Great to be here.
Brian
Brian Stiller (01:11):
Stacey, you manage Prison Fellowship,
primarily male population.
How did you land up in thiswork, in this world, in these
prisons?
Stacey Campbell (01:23):
So really interesting God story.
So that goes back to when I was15 years old.
So I took a job working for areal estate development company
in Mississauga who was givingfree space to a new ministry
that had just started up inCanada, which was Prison
Fellowship.
So that's how I got connectedto Prison Fellowship and Ian
(01:44):
Stanley was the executivedirector at the time.
And one day I came running infrom school after school and
telling everybody that there wasa guy in grade 12 who was going
to pay me 50 bucks to write hisEnglish essay.
He instantly motioned for me tocome over to him and said we're
going to sit down at my officeand I'm going to tell you why
(02:04):
you're not going to get the 50bucks and why you're not going
to write the essay.
So that was the beginning of abeautiful and I had just become
a Christian.
And so that was the beginningof a beautiful friendship.
And Ian invested in me andreally was my first, my first
spiritual director, my firstspiritual conversation partner
that I had in my life, and westayed friends.
(02:25):
I worked at the organization forthe following four years and
every Friday Ian and I sat downand had a chat and then I left
and off.
I went into the world and whenyou're that age, you don't
understand the value of havingsomebody that invested in you
like that.
We stayed in touch for a whilebut we didn't stay in touch
permanently and when I was atTyndale Seminary doing some work
(02:47):
there, I just kept getting thisprompting prison ministry,
prison ministry, prison ministry.
And I was like no way, no way.
But then finally did, andprison fellowship was the only
ministry that I knew of in thatspace.
Was the only ministry that Iknew of in that space, and so I
applied to be a volunteer andwent very quickly from being a
(03:08):
volunteer to being a staffmember, and the day I was
photographed to take theposition at PFC was the day Ian
Stanley passed away.
Brian Stiller (03:17):
Oh really.
Stacey Campbell (03:18):
Yeah.
Brian Stiller (03:19):
Well, prison fellowship has an interesting
beginning.
Chuck Colson, who was Nixon'shatchet man, went to prison and
when he came out of prison hecame to faith and that led into
prison fellowship.
(03:41):
Tell that story.
Stacey Campbell (03:42):
Yeah, so he definitely had a faith
background but wasn't practicingwhen he went into prison but
was really, really struck by theloneliness of the men that he
saw in the prison and that theyjust really had nobody.
He wanted to go back and tovisit them.
He didn't intend that he wasgoing to go back or build this
organization in 125 countriesaround the world with Ron
Nichols' help, but that's whatwas on his heart was to go back
(04:05):
and visit them and bring thehope of Jesus back into the
prison.
Brian Stiller (04:10):
We drive down our streets past penitentiaries,
prisons, and we just never thinkof them as an element of our
society.
Who's there and how they gotthere?
I guess the prison system doesa pretty good job in taking them
(04:30):
off the streets and helping usforget about them.
Is that why Jesus said don'tforget about them?
Stacey Campbell (04:37):
Yeah, remember the prisoners as if you yourself
were with them.
Right, and it's interesting inScripture it's actually
bookended from the in Isaiah,where where Jesus's ministry is
really announced, all the way toMatthew 25, which is the last
public teaching that Jesus does.
They talk about prisoners andit's it's bookended through the
(04:57):
whole book.
Jesus is predisposed to widows,orphans, prisoners, the refugee
, for sure.
Brian Stiller (05:05):
Because we forget about prisoners.
Stacey Campbell (05:07):
We forget about prisoners, yeah.
Brian Stiller (05:10):
What's the state of the prison system?
You're in Canada, but PrisonFellowship is in 100 and some
countries.
That's right.
Canada tends to have one of thebetter prison systems, maybe.
Stacey Campbell (05:21):
I would say we do.
Yeah, on the global scale it'sa pretty good system.
Brian Stiller (05:26):
Describe it for us.
Stacey Campbell (05:27):
So we have the federal and provincial systems.
So if you are awaiting asentence or you're serving a
sentence of two years, less aday or under, you're going to be
taken care of in the provincialsystem and that's called jail.
Our federal prison is actuallytaken care of federally and it's
for those who have beensentenced to more than two years
in a prison.
(05:48):
Our average sentence in afederal facility is eight years
and in a provincial facilitythey're turning over every 17 to
30 days.
So we have, if you were to takea snapshot of our prison on any
given day, we have about 38,000prisoners, but we have about
350,000 that go through thesystem in a year.
(06:09):
The majority of people that arein are in for drug-related
offenses.
Close to 75% are in fordrug-related offenses and we
tend to read the headlines andthink that everyone in a prison
is violent, but in reality it'sunder.
9% of offenders are in forviolent offenses.
Brian Stiller (06:30):
But in those prisons you also have the guards
, the attendants.
Stacey Campbell (06:34):
Yeah, correctional officers.
Brian Stiller (06:35):
Yeah, is there an easy role?
Stacey Campbell (06:40):
That's not an easy role and we've seen a real
increase in tension for thecorrectional officer in the last
few years In the province ofNew Brunswick.
As an example, nine years wasthe average tenure of a
correctional officer and it'snow nine months, so lots of
violence.
Brian Stiller (06:57):
Does this increase violence?
Does it come from?
Is it a societal issue?
What's driving that in yourexperience?
So the trend that we've seen inthe last few years is a real
uptick in refugees that arecoming to Canada, and we're
happy for that, but what we areseeing is we're seeing that
echoed in the prisons as well,and oftentimes these people are
(07:19):
coming from countries that don'thave the same relationship with
authority and for structure,and so being in combat with a
correctional officer is justperfectly normal, and so we're
seeing that play out.
I think we're also seeing thetrauma of war that is going on
in a number of countries aspeople come to Canada, and so
(07:42):
that brings with it a certainlevel of violence as well.
So they bring their memories, their
experiences, their fears andhopes and dreams and that
filters right into our entiresociety.
And of course, it never occursto us that the prisons also feel
the impact of whatever kind ofimmigrant or migratory elements
(08:05):
we have within our society, ofpeople coming and going.
It eventually filters its waythrough into the prison system.
Stacey Campbell (08:11):
Yeah, that's right, and it's really important
to make the distinction thatthat is, of course, is not the
entire population of people thatare coming to Canada, but there
is a group that filters through.
And when we don't have theinfrastructure and we don't have
the hope, the help that we'repromising, where are people
(08:31):
going to get jobs, how arepeople going to get money, how
are people going to live?
And so that's going to lead tocrime.
Brian Stiller (08:41):
And you said 75 percent of people in prisons
today.
Are there drug related?
The other factor I'm from theWest and do you have a
disproportionate Indigenouscommunity in prisons?
Stacey Campbell (08:49):
Yeah, do we ever so?
In the men's population, 33 to40 percent of the population is
Indigenous, and in our women'sfacilities it's 50 percent,
brian, 50 percent.
Brian Stiller (09:02):
As compared to the percentage of Indigenous in
our country.
Overall.
Stacey Campbell (09:07):
Yeah, that's right.
Well, no, no.
50 of the total female prisonpopulation is indigenous
Brian Stiller (09:11):
and and what's the percentage of five of
indigenous to our totalpopulation?
Five?
Stacey Campbell (09:17):
Yeah, five percent yeah
Brian Stiller (09:20):
well as you serve in the prisons.
I'm interested in knowingwhether the social, political
debate, whether that works itsway down into policy and into
program within the prison system.
Stacey Campbell (09:37):
Yeah, it does.
Absolutely Everything works itsway into the prison system,
because it's just a microcosm ofthe community.
So for sure, depending on thegovernment that is presiding at
the time, we have differentshifts that we see in the
institutions.
So give you an example of that.
Back to talking about women.
So women used to.
(09:58):
There used to be a few beds thatwere allotted across a number
of institutions if I takeOntario as an example and then
under one government.
Nope, we need to make that moreefficient.
We're going to put them all inone facility.
So that definitely affectsaccess to families, access to
children and the ability tofoster pro-social relationships.
For when those individuals comeout, we see other things that
(10:22):
happen in terms of dependingwhich government is in, which
ones will be more open toprogramming, which ones will be
less open to programming, whichones are going to have longer
sentences, which allows forgreater rehabilitation, which
one is going to have.
All of the air conditioning wastaken out of the federal
prisons and felt to be a luxury.
However, when you confine avery large portion of people
(10:55):
into a very small space, wewatched the violence statistics
go up.
Brian Stiller (11:00):
So in the heat of the summer the prisons have no
air conditioning, just fans.
Stacey Campbell (11:07):
Yeah, yeah, if that.
Brian Stiller (11:10):
And that was considered to be a luxury, and
so the government in place atthe time cut that out.
Yeah, you said that longersentences help.
In what sense?
Stacey Campbell (11:24):
So in the sense that if the sentence is too
short, then they're just comingin and then more crimes are
committed, and then they're backin, and then they're back in,
and then they're back in, butthere isn't this period of time
to actually work with programsand work with individuals that
can help in the rehabilitationprocess.
Brian Stiller (11:44):
Let us talk a bit about what Prison Fellowship
does.
Here you've got these thousandsof people mostly men but some
women in the various prisonsacross the country.
They're at various levels,everything from murder to some
kind of minor petty theft Right.
It seems to me that the publichave an assumption that a person
(12:07):
who is going to prison iswithout worth and there's really
no hope for them.
Do they feel the same?
way.
Stacey Campbell (12:18):
Yes, yeah, I would say.
I would say a lot of them arewithout hope and a lot of them
feel that they are constrainedto that state, whatever station
they are at in life.
A lot of them have never hadtheir thinking challenged.
So one of the programs that weparticipate in is a restorative
practice program where wechallenge offenders to take full
(12:41):
responsibility and fullaccountability for their crimes.
But it's a long process to getthere, but in that we really see
the thinking that someone I'mborn into this and this is how
my life is, and I'm not eventhinking of how do I get out of
this, how do I do something else.
But you know, they love thestories of Jesus and they love
(13:07):
when they catch a glimpse and avision for what is the abundant
life that Jesus actually talksabout in John 10.
You know, I came that, you knowthat whole scripture.
What is that?
And it's a thief comes to killand destroy and steal and we'll
look at that.
(13:27):
And then we'll say, well, whatdoes what?
Does crime kill and steal anddestroy All my family and my
self-worth and my future and allof this?
And yet I came that they wouldhave life and have it to the
fullest.
Well, what did Jesus mean?
What is life to the fullest?
Well, I'd have a family and I'dhave self-esteem and I'd have
(13:47):
you know, productive work to do.
And it's like, wow, these areexactly the same, these are
exactly the same thing, and youcan make that bridge over into
do you want this?
Brian Stiller (13:58):
So you go into prison?
What are you looking toaccomplish?
Stacey Campbell (14:02):
I think what we're what we're we don't bring
Jesus into the prison Jesus isalready in the prison but
highlighting for people thatthere is a better life and that
Jesus has something for them, hehas a purpose, he has a calling
on their life, and we want tosee people be all that God has
(14:23):
called them to be.
That's what we want to see.
We want to see people be allthat God has called them to be.
That's what we want to see.
We want to see fewer victims,and the cycle sometimes that
people don't see is unhealed.
Victims often becomeperpetrators, and so you need to
work with the whole cycle,which is why we work with
offenders, we work withex-offenders, we work with their
(14:45):
families, we work with theirchildren, we work with victims.
You're working with the wholecycle of crime, as well as the
whole life cycle of a prisoner.
Brian Stiller (14:55):
So we live in this country that's quite
secular.
Many people pride themselves onCanada being secular.
So you go into a governmentsystem, run a government program
that runs prisons and you areChristian up front, right, right
.
How do they see you?
Stacey Campbell (15:13):
The posture I would say is that it's those who
are in prison and claim to havea certain faith who call for us
, and that's how we come in.
They have a right to practicetheir faith in their tradition.
So if they're Christian andthey want a Christian
organization or they want aBible study, that comes in.
Then the chaplain calls PF, andwe want, we'd like to have a
(15:36):
Bible study.
So that's kind of how we, howwe, how we get in to the
facility.
We're protected in that it's acharter right for someone to
practice their own faith andthen.
So those are kind of the thelegal implications.
But the staff in a prison willoften comment that when people
are involved in Bible studyprograms or that type of thing,
it brings the anxiety in theprison down.
(15:58):
They see a difference.
They see a difference.
Brian Stiller (16:02):
And how do you go about serving prisoners,
ministering to them, doing theirBible study?
How does that work?
Stacey Campbell (16:09):
So we have particular programs that are set
to accomplish different things.
So an example we have onethat's called the Forgiveness
Journey and it looks atforgiveness, all the different
aspects of forgiveness in theBible, over a 10-week period.
And I've never met a prisonerBrian that doesn't want to be
forgiven.
So those programs we have lifeskill programs that are based on
(16:29):
a biblical model, that type ofthing, the restorative practice
where people really want toencounter and make amends with
their victim, and so we providea program that starts that we
work with surrogate victims tostart with and they spend a
lengthy period of time workingthrough actually telling the
(16:50):
truth.
I had one woman who 10 years, 10years in and she finally says I
can't carry this anymore, I'vegot to tell the truth and and
finally, finally told the truthand took responsibility for her
crime and then met with somebodywho'd been through a similar
crime and heard their story ofimpact and and all these things
(17:10):
that we think a normal humanbeing would just get.
But they don't.
But you go through victimempathy and those types of
programs, and then we talk aboutwell, what's the biblical basis
of all this?
Why are we doing this?
And so those are great programs.
Then we have programs outside.
So we have a bridge careprogram, which is for people
(17:32):
trying to reintegrate back intosociety.
We walk with them from three to36 months, depending on how
long they need to transitionback safely.
We want to see fewer victimsand we want to see, you know,
lives healed and productivelives.
Brian Stiller (17:47):
Colson, the founder of Prison Fellowship,
wrote this famous book calledBorn Again.
So obviously within the gospelthere is this transformational
aspect.
How does that play itself outin the life of a prisoner?
Stacey Campbell (18:01):
So I use three words for that encounter, repair
and transformation.
So there has to be an encounterwith Jesus in some form.
They have to meet Jesus in someway, whether that's through the
Bible study or talking abouthim or praying to him, but
somehow it begins with anencounter with Jesus.
And then you know, brian, theword justice, biblically
(18:25):
speaking, means God has takenwhat has fallen over and stands
it up straight.
It's the meaning of justice.
And so that is that's what'shappening through the encounter,
the repair.
And so that is that's what'shappening through the encounter,
the repair, and thentransformation.
Transformation occurs Not allat once, right Little bits, back
and forth, back and forth, butover a long, lengthy, lengthy
(18:48):
period of time.
We see it.
Just like in our life.
Brian Stiller (18:50):
And how do prisoners meet?
Jesus Tell us the story.
Stacey Campbell (18:53):
So here's an example of one of our programs
and how we would do it.
We have, like, we have a littlecard that we put out and it's a
basketball court, and on thebasketball court we talk about
all the different positions.
You know, you could be at thecenter, you could be on the
opposing team.
You could be as it relates toJesus.
You could be on the opposingteam.
You could be a heckler in thecrowd.
(19:13):
You could be somebody that's upin the benches, but you've
really you're a hurt player,you've encountered the church
before and you're hurt, and thenthat's where you are.
You could be on the court, butyou're not at center court.
And so we talk about you know,where are you in?
Where are you with Jesus?
Have you ever heard of Jesusand who is Jesus?
Who is God?
(19:34):
And we have these incrediblyhonest and bare conversations
and then just provide thislittle card to help us locate
where somebody is.
Another example of how I oftendo it is I will read the passage
from Ecclesiastes that talksabout all the different seasons
and the times.
So it's a time to you know.
(19:57):
It's a time to heal.
It's a time to scatter, scatter.
It's a time to gather.
It's a, so we'll read throughthe whole passage and then I'll
ask what time is it?
What time is it?
And they'll be oh, for me it'sdefinitely.
It's a time to this and a timeto this, all right, and then
that's an entry, that's an entryway in.
So there's a couple examples ofyou
Brian Stiller (20:17):
tell the story of somebody who has gone through
that transformational process.
Stacey Campbell (20:22):
Yeah, oh boy, I could tell so many stories.
So I can tell the story of anindividual who was in for a
fairly serious crime, actually,and went to meet with him and he
said to me now this book, likedoes that belong to your church?
I'm like you mean the Bible?
And he said, yeah, like theBible.
Like does every church havetheir own Bible?
(20:45):
It's like, well, no, we allhave one Bible.
There's different translations,but, but so something as basic
as that is not knowing.
So I was going away forChristmas and said to said to
him as that is not knowing, so Iwas going away for Christmas
and said to him I want you toread, but I don't want you to
start with Genesis and go allthe way through.
I want you to promise me you'regoing to start in the book of
(21:06):
John, and I love to startprisoners in the book of the
gospel of John because it's veryinclusive, right.
And so started them there.
Come back two weeks later, ofcourse, and the individual says
to me man, this stuff is tough.
He says I started out in thebook of Genesis and he starts to
ask me all of these questionsabout David and different things
(21:27):
that are going.
He's like, wow, this stuff isscary and so kind of just what
you don't.
I have never experienced thatin a church, some of the stories
, but anyway, we continued onand continued a relationship and
continued to meet through Biblestudy.
And you know, that's probablyabout 12 years ago, brian and
that individual wrote me about amonth ago to say they were
(21:50):
going on their first missionstrip, and so he became a.
Christian became a Christian anddid his time.
Yeah, did his full time, becamea Christian, went through the
bridge care program, was placedin a faith community, went to
church for many, many years andwe've been writing the whole
time.
It's not like.
It's not like I just heard fromhim after after 10 years.
(22:10):
We've been, you know, we'vekept in contact for a long time,
but
Brian Stiller (22:15):
what did you do during?
COVID.
Stacey Campbell (22:17):
During COVID was tough because we were shut
out of the prison and Providence.
This was so providential.
Two weeks before that happenedI had a ministry call and say we
have a phone line in the prisonbut we don't use it.
We don't want to just shut itdown because it takes could take
eight years to get a phone linein the prison.
Do you want it it?
And so I said yeah, I'll takeit.
(22:37):
I'll take it for our bridgecare people because then people,
four to six months beforethey're leaving, they can call
our line, start to set upcommunity and do all of that.
So a few weeks into COVID I hada chaplain who called me and
said Stacey, could we use yourphone line just for, you know,
prisoners to make a call Likethe mental health crisis that's
going on in here is untenable.
(22:58):
And I, being the strategist,said, well, no, you can't use
that phone line, but if you giveme another phone line I'll
build a whole program around it,because I did want to preserve
that first line for bridge care.
So within days I had theapproval of a phone line right
across Canada and prisonerscould call for spiritual
friendship and for prayer, andwe get thousands of calls still
(23:22):
on that line.
Brian Stiller (23:24):
So prisons in this country and in most
countries are scattered aboutthe country, yep, and in those
places, those towns and villagesand cities, there are churches.
Mm-hmm, how can the church help?
It seems to me that the churchis generally the local
congregation is a long of as aprison town.
(23:45):
It used to be 11 prisons.
Stacey Campbell (24:01):
There's eight prisons there now all
concentrated, and so it's verymuch a culture around
correctional staff and so itbecomes hard because we've
created this polarizationbetween the offender and the
correctional staff.
So those sometimes arechallenges.
But we do have good churchesthere.
So those sometimes arechallenges, but we do have good
(24:44):
churches there.
But churches in general, ifyou're not in a two-hour time
slot once a week and minister tocorrectional staff.
Brian Stiller (24:47):
And what happens when a prisoner is released?
What's the transition and whatkind of transition do you bring
to their lives from prison backinto society?
Stacey Campbell (24:57):
Back into society.
So that's our bridge careprogram, where we have a team of
two individuals that will walkalongside that person for three
to 36 months, and sometimes it'slonger.
We have some people that are inthe four-year category, but we
walk alongside them and justhelp to break down.
Okay, this week you're justgoing to do these two things,
because it's overwhelming, brian, somebody could have been in.
(25:19):
They've burnt all their bridges.
They have no relationships inthe community.
Now they've got a criminalrecord.
How are they going to get a job?
And we know you need stablecommunity, stable housing and
stable employment in order to besuccessful.
So we work toward thoseobjectives and then, when the
person is ready, getting themestablished in a faith community
(25:40):
.
Brian Stiller (25:40):
Yeah, when the person is ready getting them
established in a faith community.
Yeah, a few years ago I wentwith Ron Nickel, the former
international director of prisonfellowship, and we spent a
number of weeks in CentralAmerica visiting seven prisons,
and some of them were in ElSalvador and Ecuador and other
places were mind boggling.
I can't imagine that a personcould live more than a week in a
(26:01):
place like that.
But what I did come in touchwith was a program called Angel
Tree.
Tell us about that, yeah.
Stacey Campbell (26:09):
So Angel Tree started in the US and it was
actually a bank robber, a womanwho was a bank robber, who went
to prison and found what allprisoners find at Christmas is
this horrible reality sets inthat you actually have nothing
to give to your child and can'tgive anything, and so she was
wrapping up little soaps thatshe got instead of using them so
(26:31):
that she could send that hometo her children.
Anyway, when she got out, maryKay Beard was her name, and when
she got out she came to workfor Prison Fellowship in the US
and started the Angel TreeProgram.
So the Angel Tree Programallows it's initiated by the
prisoner and they can fill outan application to get a small
gift sent to their child.
And here in Canada we also putin a room where put room on the
(26:55):
application where they can fillout a message to their child in
their own handwriting and thatgoes on the gift.
And then the local church.
We look for local churches inthe area where that child lives
to shop for, purchase and wrapthe gift and then deliver it to
the child and hopefully eveninvite them to your church.
And so 5,009 children here inCanada we took care of last year
(27:19):
.
Brian Stiller (27:20):
And what does that do to the family?
Stacey Campbell (27:22):
So for the family, oftentimes it's the only
gift that that child is goingto get.
As you can imagine, like yousaid, 97% of our prisoners are
male and when a father goes toprison, the family is often
quickly descends into povertyand so there isn't money for
Christmas gifts or a tree oranything like that.
So for the family it'sdefinitely very welcome because
(27:45):
the child has a gift and thenthe child is connected to their
father and that has a whole listof ramifications, positive
ramifications for a child.
A child who's connected to aparent, even an incarcerated
parent, is more likely to go outfor sports, more likely to join
extracurricular events, morelikely to initiate socially All
(28:09):
those pro-social things that wewant to keep, these that we want
to see in these kids so thatthey're not joining that cycle
of crime, because there is amuch higher predisposition to
them going to prison as well ifthey've got an incarcerated
parent.
Brian Stiller (28:25):
What do you need here in Canada?
What does Prison Fellowshipneed globally to do its ministry
of caring for prison?
Stacey Campbell (28:33):
Yeah, we need the church community to come
alongside of us.
I know it's a fearful thing tothink about coming alongside of
a prisoner, particularly in thecommunity, but there's lots of
training and you know lots ofstories from volunteers who will
say it's their favorite day istheir PFC day.
And we need the church toengage with us and join us in
(28:55):
helping to minister to prisonersand ex-prisoners, in helping to
minister to prisoners andex-prisoners.
So another area that we need inour restorative practice work I
had mentioned that, brian thatwe bring surrogate victims into
the prison who share the impactof the crime and typically
they're 10 to 15 years away fromwhen their crime happened to
them.
But we need people who haveexperienced crime to come and
(29:21):
volunteer to share their storiesof how they were impacted at
the time, two years later, fiveyears later, 10 years later, and
to come into a circle andexplain that to an offender.
Brian Stiller (29:32):
Yeah, and are prisoners open to hearing those
stories?
Stacey Campbell (29:36):
And there's actually statistics behind it
and the statistics say that 40%of victims want to meet their
offender and 40%.
Coincidentally, 40% ofoffenders want to meet the
person that they harmed, fordialogue, to apologize, to
express remorse.
They're not the same 40%, ofcourse.
That matches up perfectly, butit is really redemptive work.
Brian Stiller (30:01):
What does that look like?
Take me into a prison where avictim he or she is in telling
their story.
Are they sitting, are theystanding in front of a crowd, or
just two or three prisoners?
What does it look like?
Stacey Campbell (30:17):
So we operate the restorative practice in a
circle, typically have up to 12offenders between six and 12
offenders that are in the circle, and they're the one they have
gone through for months.
They have gone through workwith us as they prepare to meet
a surrogate.
Brian Stiller (30:32):
Oh, so you're prepping them on the?
It's not just a chanceencounter.
No, it's part of a longer termstrategy.
Stacey Campbell (30:40):
Yeah, and also we don't want to re A hundred
percent yeah.
So every staff member at PFCgoes into the prison half a day
(31:03):
a week, so, and they may dodifferent programs.
Some might work in bridge care,some might work in Bible
studies.
Brian Stiller (31:09):
Bridge, care is the transition out.
Stacey Campbell (31:11):
Yeah, the transition out.
So I myself work once a weekwith the restorative practice
program, so, and I'm I'mactually running one right now
and have have victims coming intomorrow night to the, to the
prisoner and to the prison inKitchener, and so what we do
with that circle?
We understand what their crimesare and so we look for
(31:31):
surrogate victims who havesuffered the same harms as what
you say surrogate victims, notjust a victim not just a victim,
because a victim would be thedirect, they would be each
other's direct victims.
So surrogate in the fact thatthis person has lost someone due
to, you know, a drunk drivingincident where someone was
(31:51):
killed.
This one has perpetrated it.
They're not each other'svictims, but they share an
uncommon understanding becausethey're linked by the same crime
.
Brian Stiller (32:02):
So that victim, or that surrogate victim, as you
call them, comes in and sitsand tells his or her story.
Stacey Campbell (32:09):
Yep Comes in and tells the impact of what it
was like to suffer that crime.
Brian Stiller (32:13):
And do they read a script or do they just talk?
Stacey Campbell (32:16):
They can both Either.
Some are more comfortable towrite it out before they come
and then read that and then lookup and answer questions, and
some just come in and tell theirstories.
Brian Stiller (32:27):
And what's the atmosphere?
Stacey Campbell (32:30):
It's tense.
It's tense to start with.
Certainly, some come in andthey express anger.
Brian Stiller (32:36):
Who.
Stacey Campbell (32:37):
The victim, yeah for sure At what's happened
and and really a realfrustration about just wanting
to understand why did you pickme?
Was it random?
Was it, was it on purpose?
Why did you do this?
Why?
Why do you commit these crimes?
Why do you sell drugs?
Can you not see that my nephewwas, you know whatever state he
(32:59):
was already in?
And how could you do that?
And then the offenders share oh, we don't even see that.
We are so focused on justgetting money so that we can
live.
We're not even looking at that.
And so they answer those whyquestions and those what if?
Questions that a victim carriesfor decades.
Brian Stiller (33:22):
So a person goes through that restorative justice
process, what does thatultimately bring into their
lives for the future?
Stacey Campbell (33:31):
So, for the surrogate victim, a huge measure
of healing.
And a lot of them will say Isaw remorse.
It wasn't the person whoactually committed the crime,
but I saw remorse and that's allI needed.
That's what I needed.
We have an individual right nowwho threw a drunk driving
accident and is a paraplegic,and the individual who was
(33:52):
responsible had good lawyers andhad lawyers that delayed the
individual long enough that bythe time they did a breathalyzer
, they were under the legallimit and the person walked and
it was a friend that she knewand never saw them again and
wondered wow, I've been sittingin this wheelchair for 15 years.
Like, did you ever think aboutme?
Like, have I ever crossed yourmind?
(34:14):
And so came in and sees anoffender that we've got in the
facility who did the same thing,had an impaired charge causing
significant bodily harm, and sowas able to ask her questions
about what about this?
And do you think about yourvictim?
And what's a sample of youthinking about your victim?
(34:36):
And she's like yep, I carry hisimpact statement in my wallet
and I read it every morning whenI wake up.
That was hugely healing for theindividual.
that doesn't know if someoneever thought, thinks of her.
Brian Stiller (34:50):
So what drives you every day?
Stacey Campbell (34:54):
It's a calling, Brian for sure, and I am as
excited about prison fellowshiptoday as I was when I got here
16 years ago.
And you know, I just I loveJesus and I feel really close to
him when I'm in the prison andto see repair and to see lives
(35:16):
healed and reconciled.
I think it heals a little pieceof my heart and I love the work
.
It is so life-giving, it ishard, it's hard work, but it is
so life-giving and he's justthere.
Brian Stiller (35:31):
But you don't take Jesus there.
Stacey Campbell (35:33):
No, he's already there.
Brian Stiller (35:34):
He's already there.
Stacey Campbell (35:35):
He's already there, but we highlight him and
we say, see, there he is.
Brian Stiller (35:41):
Thank you so much for being with us today on
Evangelical 360.
Stacey Campbell (35:44):
Thanks, Brian
Brian Stiller (35:44):
, thank you, stacey, for joining us today and
for helping us to see and hearthose we far too often forget or
ignore, and thank you for beinga part of the podcast.
I'd be grateful if you wouldsubscribe and share this episode
using hashtag Evangelical360.
(36:05):
If you'd like to learn moreabout today's guest, be sure to
check the show notes ordescription below, and if you
haven't already received my freee-book and newsletter, just go
to brianstillercom.
Thanks again, until next time.
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm your host, brian Stiller,and I'm pleased to share with
you another conversation withleaders, changemakers and
influencers impacting Christianlife around the world.
My guest today President andCEO of Prison Fellowship Canada.
Some may be familiar withPrison Fellowship thanks to the
(00:32):
life and legacy of Americanfounder Chuck Colson, but many
of us know little about theprison system itself.
We hear about people beingsentenced in the news, maybe the
topic of incarceration comes upin conversation, but for the
most part, we know little aboutthe human beings on the inside.
Well, stacey knows all aboutthe sights and sounds on the
(00:55):
inside and what theseindividuals experience.
Her service to PrisonFellowship Canada for over 15
years is an inspiration andchallenge to us all.
Stacey, it's wonderful to haveyou here today on Evangelical
360.
Stacey Campbell (01:09):
Great to be here.
Brian
Brian Stiller (01:11):
Stacey, you manage Prison Fellowship,
primarily male population.
How did you land up in thiswork, in this world, in these
prisons?
Stacey Campbell (01:23):
So really interesting God story.
So that goes back to when I was15 years old.
So I took a job working for areal estate development company
in Mississauga who was givingfree space to a new ministry
that had just started up inCanada, which was Prison
Fellowship.
So that's how I got connectedto Prison Fellowship and Ian
(01:44):
Stanley was the executivedirector at the time.
And one day I came running infrom school after school and
telling everybody that there wasa guy in grade 12 who was going
to pay me 50 bucks to write hisEnglish essay.
He instantly motioned for me tocome over to him and said we're
going to sit down at my officeand I'm going to tell you why
(02:04):
you're not going to get the 50bucks and why you're not going
to write the essay.
So that was the beginning of abeautiful and I had just become
a Christian.
And so that was the beginningof a beautiful friendship.
And Ian invested in me andreally was my first, my first
spiritual director, my firstspiritual conversation partner
that I had in my life, and westayed friends.
(02:25):
I worked at the organization forthe following four years and
every Friday Ian and I sat downand had a chat and then I left
and off.
I went into the world and whenyou're that age, you don't
understand the value of havingsomebody that invested in you
like that.
We stayed in touch for a whilebut we didn't stay in touch
permanently and when I was atTyndale Seminary doing some work
(02:47):
there, I just kept getting thisprompting prison ministry,
prison ministry, prison ministry.
And I was like no way, no way.
But then finally did, andprison fellowship was the only
ministry that I knew of in thatspace.
Was the only ministry that Iknew of in that space, and so I
applied to be a volunteer andwent very quickly from being a
(03:08):
volunteer to being a staffmember, and the day I was
photographed to take theposition at PFC was the day Ian
Stanley passed away.
Brian Stiller (03:17):
Oh really.
Stacey Campbell (03:18):
Yeah.
Brian Stiller (03:19):
Well, prison fellowship has an interesting
beginning.
Chuck Colson, who was Nixon'shatchet man, went to prison and
when he came out of prison hecame to faith and that led into
prison fellowship.
(03:41):
Tell that story.
Stacey Campbell (03:42):
Yeah, so he definitely had a faith
background but wasn't practicingwhen he went into prison but
was really, really struck by theloneliness of the men that he
saw in the prison and that theyjust really had nobody.
He wanted to go back and tovisit them.
He didn't intend that he wasgoing to go back or build this
organization in 125 countriesaround the world with Ron
Nichols' help, but that's whatwas on his heart was to go back
(04:05):
and visit them and bring thehope of Jesus back into the
prison.
Brian Stiller (04:10):
We drive down our streets past penitentiaries,
prisons, and we just never thinkof them as an element of our
society.
Who's there and how they gotthere?
I guess the prison system doesa pretty good job in taking them
(04:30):
off the streets and helping usforget about them.
Is that why Jesus said don'tforget about them?
Stacey Campbell (04:37):
Yeah, remember the prisoners as if you yourself
were with them.
Right, and it's interesting inScripture it's actually
bookended from the in Isaiah,where where Jesus's ministry is
really announced, all the way toMatthew 25, which is the last
public teaching that Jesus does.
They talk about prisoners andit's it's bookended through the
(04:57):
whole book.
Jesus is predisposed to widows,orphans, prisoners, the refugee
, for sure.
Brian Stiller (05:05):
Because we forget about prisoners.
Stacey Campbell (05:07):
We forget about prisoners, yeah.
Brian Stiller (05:10):
What's the state of the prison system?
You're in Canada, but PrisonFellowship is in 100 and some
countries.
That's right.
Canada tends to have one of thebetter prison systems, maybe.
Stacey Campbell (05:21):
I would say we do.
Yeah, on the global scale it'sa pretty good system.
Brian Stiller (05:26):
Describe it for us.
Stacey Campbell (05:27):
So we have the federal and provincial systems.
So if you are awaiting asentence or you're serving a
sentence of two years, less aday or under, you're going to be
taken care of in the provincialsystem and that's called jail.
Our federal prison is actuallytaken care of federally and it's
for those who have beensentenced to more than two years
in a prison.
(05:48):
Our average sentence in afederal facility is eight years
and in a provincial facilitythey're turning over every 17 to
30 days.
So we have, if you were to takea snapshot of our prison on any
given day, we have about 38,000prisoners, but we have about
350,000 that go through thesystem in a year.
(06:09):
The majority of people that arein are in for drug-related
offenses.
Close to 75% are in fordrug-related offenses and we
tend to read the headlines andthink that everyone in a prison
is violent, but in reality it'sunder.
9% of offenders are in forviolent offenses.
Brian Stiller (06:30):
But in those prisons you also have the guards
, the attendants.
Stacey Campbell (06:34):
Yeah, correctional officers.
Brian Stiller (06:35):
Yeah, is there an easy role?
Stacey Campbell (06:40):
That's not an easy role and we've seen a real
increase in tension for thecorrectional officer in the last
few years In the province ofNew Brunswick.
As an example, nine years wasthe average tenure of a
correctional officer and it'snow nine months, so lots of
violence.
Brian Stiller (06:57):
Does this increase violence?
Does it come from?
Is it a societal issue?
What's driving that in yourexperience?
So the trend that we've seen inthe last few years is a real
uptick in refugees that arecoming to Canada, and we're
happy for that, but what we areseeing is we're seeing that
echoed in the prisons as well,and oftentimes these people are
(07:19):
coming from countries that don'thave the same relationship with
authority and for structure,and so being in combat with a
correctional officer is justperfectly normal, and so we're
seeing that play out.
I think we're also seeing thetrauma of war that is going on
in a number of countries aspeople come to Canada, and so
(07:42):
that brings with it a certainlevel of violence as well.
So they bring their memories, their
experiences, their fears andhopes and dreams and that
filters right into our entiresociety.
And of course, it never occursto us that the prisons also feel
the impact of whatever kind ofimmigrant or migratory elements
(08:05):
we have within our society, ofpeople coming and going.
It eventually filters its waythrough into the prison system.
Stacey Campbell (08:11):
Yeah, that's right, and it's really important
to make the distinction thatthat is, of course, is not the
entire population of people thatare coming to Canada, but there
is a group that filters through.
And when we don't have theinfrastructure and we don't have
the hope, the help that we'repromising, where are people
(08:31):
going to get jobs, how arepeople going to get money, how
are people going to live?
And so that's going to lead tocrime.
Brian Stiller (08:41):
And you said 75 percent of people in prisons
today.
Are there drug related?
The other factor I'm from theWest and do you have a
disproportionate Indigenouscommunity in prisons?
Stacey Campbell (08:49):
Yeah, do we ever so?
In the men's population, 33 to40 percent of the population is
Indigenous, and in our women'sfacilities it's 50 percent,
brian, 50 percent.
Brian Stiller (09:02):
As compared to the percentage of Indigenous in
our country.
Overall.
Stacey Campbell (09:07):
Yeah, that's right.
Well, no, no.
50 of the total female prisonpopulation is indigenous
Brian Stiller (09:11):
and and what's the percentage of five of
indigenous to our totalpopulation?
Five?
Stacey Campbell (09:17):
Yeah, five percent yeah
Brian Stiller (09:20):
well as you serve in the prisons.
I'm interested in knowingwhether the social, political
debate, whether that works itsway down into policy and into
program within the prison system.
Stacey Campbell (09:37):
Yeah, it does.
Absolutely Everything works itsway into the prison system,
because it's just a microcosm ofthe community.
So for sure, depending on thegovernment that is presiding at
the time, we have differentshifts that we see in the
institutions.
So give you an example of that.
Back to talking about women.
So women used to.
(09:58):
There used to be a few beds thatwere allotted across a number
of institutions if I takeOntario as an example and then
under one government.
Nope, we need to make that moreefficient.
We're going to put them all inone facility.
So that definitely affectsaccess to families, access to
children and the ability tofoster pro-social relationships.
For when those individuals comeout, we see other things that
(10:22):
happen in terms of dependingwhich government is in, which
ones will be more open toprogramming, which ones will be
less open to programming, whichones are going to have longer
sentences, which allows forgreater rehabilitation, which
one is going to have.
All of the air conditioning wastaken out of the federal
prisons and felt to be a luxury.
However, when you confine avery large portion of people
(10:55):
into a very small space, wewatched the violence statistics
go up.
Brian Stiller (11:00):
So in the heat of the summer the prisons have no
air conditioning, just fans.
Stacey Campbell (11:07):
Yeah, yeah, if that.
Brian Stiller (11:10):
And that was considered to be a luxury, and
so the government in place atthe time cut that out.
Yeah, you said that longersentences help.
In what sense?
Stacey Campbell (11:24):
So in the sense that if the sentence is too
short, then they're just comingin and then more crimes are
committed, and then they're backin, and then they're back in,
and then they're back in, butthere isn't this period of time
to actually work with programsand work with individuals that
can help in the rehabilitationprocess.
Brian Stiller (11:44):
Let us talk a bit about what Prison Fellowship
does.
Here you've got these thousandsof people mostly men but some
women in the various prisonsacross the country.
They're at various levels,everything from murder to some
kind of minor petty theft Right.
It seems to me that the publichave an assumption that a person
(12:07):
who is going to prison iswithout worth and there's really
no hope for them.
Do they feel the same?
way.
Stacey Campbell (12:18):
Yes, yeah, I would say.
I would say a lot of them arewithout hope and a lot of them
feel that they are constrainedto that state, whatever station
they are at in life.
A lot of them have never hadtheir thinking challenged.
So one of the programs that weparticipate in is a restorative
practice program where wechallenge offenders to take full
(12:41):
responsibility and fullaccountability for their crimes.
But it's a long process to getthere, but in that we really see
the thinking that someone I'mborn into this and this is how
my life is, and I'm not eventhinking of how do I get out of
this, how do I do something else.
But you know, they love thestories of Jesus and they love
(13:07):
when they catch a glimpse and avision for what is the abundant
life that Jesus actually talksabout in John 10.
You know, I came that, you knowthat whole scripture.
What is that?
And it's a thief comes to killand destroy and steal and we'll
look at that.
(13:27):
And then we'll say, well, whatdoes what?
Does crime kill and steal anddestroy All my family and my
self-worth and my future and allof this?
And yet I came that they wouldhave life and have it to the
fullest.
Well, what did Jesus mean?
What is life to the fullest?
Well, I'd have a family and I'dhave self-esteem and I'd have
(13:47):
you know, productive work to do.
And it's like, wow, these areexactly the same, these are
exactly the same thing, and youcan make that bridge over into
do you want this?
Brian Stiller (13:58):
So you go into prison?
What are you looking toaccomplish?
Stacey Campbell (14:02):
I think what we're what we're we don't bring
Jesus into the prison Jesus isalready in the prison but
highlighting for people thatthere is a better life and that
Jesus has something for them, hehas a purpose, he has a calling
on their life, and we want tosee people be all that God has
(14:23):
called them to be.
That's what we want to see.
We want to see people be allthat God has called them to be.
That's what we want to see.
We want to see fewer victims,and the cycle sometimes that
people don't see is unhealed.
Victims often becomeperpetrators, and so you need to
work with the whole cycle,which is why we work with
offenders, we work withex-offenders, we work with their
(14:45):
families, we work with theirchildren, we work with victims.
You're working with the wholecycle of crime, as well as the
whole life cycle of a prisoner.
Brian Stiller (14:55):
So we live in this country that's quite
secular.
Many people pride themselves onCanada being secular.
So you go into a governmentsystem, run a government program
that runs prisons and you areChristian up front, right, right
.
How do they see you?
Stacey Campbell (15:13):
The posture I would say is that it's those who
are in prison and claim to havea certain faith who call for us
, and that's how we come in.
They have a right to practicetheir faith in their tradition.
So if they're Christian andthey want a Christian
organization or they want aBible study, that comes in.
Then the chaplain calls PF, andwe want, we'd like to have a
(15:36):
Bible study.
So that's kind of how we, howwe, how we get in to the
facility.
We're protected in that it's acharter right for someone to
practice their own faith andthen.
So those are kind of the thelegal implications.
But the staff in a prison willoften comment that when people
are involved in Bible studyprograms or that type of thing,
it brings the anxiety in theprison down.
(15:58):
They see a difference.
They see a difference.
Brian Stiller (16:02):
And how do you go about serving prisoners,
ministering to them, doing theirBible study?
How does that work?
Stacey Campbell (16:09):
So we have particular programs that are set
to accomplish different things.
So an example we have onethat's called the Forgiveness
Journey and it looks atforgiveness, all the different
aspects of forgiveness in theBible, over a 10-week period.
And I've never met a prisonerBrian that doesn't want to be
forgiven.
So those programs we have lifeskill programs that are based on
(16:29):
a biblical model, that type ofthing, the restorative practice
where people really want toencounter and make amends with
their victim, and so we providea program that starts that we
work with surrogate victims tostart with and they spend a
lengthy period of time workingthrough actually telling the
(16:50):
truth.
I had one woman who 10 years, 10years in and she finally says I
can't carry this anymore, I'vegot to tell the truth and and
finally, finally told the truthand took responsibility for her
crime and then met with somebodywho'd been through a similar
crime and heard their story ofimpact and and all these things
(17:10):
that we think a normal humanbeing would just get.
But they don't.
But you go through victimempathy and those types of
programs, and then we talk aboutwell, what's the biblical basis
of all this?
Why are we doing this?
And so those are great programs.
Then we have programs outside.
So we have a bridge careprogram, which is for people
(17:32):
trying to reintegrate back intosociety.
We walk with them from three to36 months, depending on how
long they need to transitionback safely.
We want to see fewer victimsand we want to see, you know,
lives healed and productivelives.
Brian Stiller (17:47):
Colson, the founder of Prison Fellowship,
wrote this famous book calledBorn Again.
So obviously within the gospelthere is this transformational
aspect.
How does that play itself outin the life of a prisoner?
Stacey Campbell (18:01):
So I use three words for that encounter, repair
and transformation.
So there has to be an encounterwith Jesus in some form.
They have to meet Jesus in someway, whether that's through the
Bible study or talking abouthim or praying to him, but
somehow it begins with anencounter with Jesus.
And then you know, brian, theword justice, biblically
(18:25):
speaking, means God has takenwhat has fallen over and stands
it up straight.
It's the meaning of justice.
And so that is that's what'shappening through the encounter,
the repair.
And so that is that's what'shappening through the encounter,
the repair, and thentransformation.
Transformation occurs Not allat once, right Little bits, back
and forth, back and forth, butover a long, lengthy, lengthy
(18:48):
period of time.
We see it.
Just like in our life.
Brian Stiller (18:50):
And how do prisoners meet?
Jesus Tell us the story.
Stacey Campbell (18:53):
So here's an example of one of our programs
and how we would do it.
We have, like, we have a littlecard that we put out and it's a
basketball court, and on thebasketball court we talk about
all the different positions.
You know, you could be at thecenter, you could be on the
opposing team.
You could be as it relates toJesus.
You could be on the opposingteam.
You could be a heckler in thecrowd.
(19:13):
You could be somebody that's upin the benches, but you've
really you're a hurt player,you've encountered the church
before and you're hurt, and thenthat's where you are.
You could be on the court, butyou're not at center court.
And so we talk about you know,where are you in?
Where are you with Jesus?
Have you ever heard of Jesusand who is Jesus?
Who is God?
(19:34):
And we have these incrediblyhonest and bare conversations
and then just provide thislittle card to help us locate
where somebody is.
Another example of how I oftendo it is I will read the passage
from Ecclesiastes that talksabout all the different seasons
and the times.
So it's a time to you know.
(19:57):
It's a time to heal.
It's a time to scatter, scatter.
It's a time to gather.
It's a, so we'll read throughthe whole passage and then I'll
ask what time is it?
What time is it?
And they'll be oh, for me it'sdefinitely.
It's a time to this and a timeto this, all right, and then
that's an entry, that's an entryway in.
So there's a couple examples ofyou
Brian Stiller (20:17):
tell the story of somebody who has gone through
that transformational process.
Stacey Campbell (20:22):
Yeah, oh boy, I could tell so many stories.
So I can tell the story of anindividual who was in for a
fairly serious crime, actually,and went to meet with him and he
said to me now this book, likedoes that belong to your church?
I'm like you mean the Bible?
And he said, yeah, like theBible.
Like does every church havetheir own Bible?
(20:45):
It's like, well, no, we allhave one Bible.
There's different translations,but, but so something as basic
as that is not knowing.
So I was going away forChristmas and said to said to
him as that is not knowing, so Iwas going away for Christmas
and said to him I want you toread, but I don't want you to
start with Genesis and go allthe way through.
I want you to promise me you'regoing to start in the book of
(21:06):
John, and I love to startprisoners in the book of the
gospel of John because it's veryinclusive, right.
And so started them there.
Come back two weeks later, ofcourse, and the individual says
to me man, this stuff is tough.
He says I started out in thebook of Genesis and he starts to
ask me all of these questionsabout David and different things
(21:27):
that are going.
He's like, wow, this stuff isscary and so kind of just what
you don't.
I have never experienced thatin a church, some of the stories
, but anyway, we continued onand continued a relationship and
continued to meet through Biblestudy.
And you know, that's probablyabout 12 years ago, brian and
that individual wrote me about amonth ago to say they were
(21:50):
going on their first missionstrip, and so he became a.
Christian became a Christian anddid his time.
Yeah, did his full time, becamea Christian, went through the
bridge care program, was placedin a faith community, went to
church for many, many years andwe've been writing the whole
time.
It's not like.
It's not like I just heard fromhim after after 10 years.
(22:10):
We've been, you know, we'vekept in contact for a long time,
but
Brian Stiller (22:15):
what did you do during?
COVID.
Stacey Campbell (22:17):
During COVID was tough because we were shut
out of the prison and Providence.
This was so providential.
Two weeks before that happenedI had a ministry call and say we
have a phone line in the prisonbut we don't use it.
We don't want to just shut itdown because it takes could take
eight years to get a phone linein the prison.
Do you want it it?
And so I said yeah, I'll takeit.
(22:37):
I'll take it for our bridgecare people because then people,
four to six months beforethey're leaving, they can call
our line, start to set upcommunity and do all of that.
So a few weeks into COVID I hada chaplain who called me and
said Stacey, could we use yourphone line just for, you know,
prisoners to make a call Likethe mental health crisis that's
going on in here is untenable.
(22:58):
And I, being the strategist,said, well, no, you can't use
that phone line, but if you giveme another phone line I'll
build a whole program around it,because I did want to preserve
that first line for bridge care.
So within days I had theapproval of a phone line right
across Canada and prisonerscould call for spiritual
friendship and for prayer, andwe get thousands of calls still
(23:22):
on that line.
Brian Stiller (23:24):
So prisons in this country and in most
countries are scattered aboutthe country, yep, and in those
places, those towns and villagesand cities, there are churches.
Mm-hmm, how can the church help?
It seems to me that the churchis generally the local
congregation is a long of as aprison town.
(23:45):
It used to be 11 prisons.
Stacey Campbell (24:01):
There's eight prisons there now all
concentrated, and so it's verymuch a culture around
correctional staff and so itbecomes hard because we've
created this polarizationbetween the offender and the
correctional staff.
So those sometimes arechallenges.
But we do have good churchesthere.
So those sometimes arechallenges, but we do have good
(24:44):
churches there.
But churches in general, ifyou're not in a two-hour time
slot once a week and minister tocorrectional staff.
Brian Stiller (24:47):
And what happens when a prisoner is released?
What's the transition and whatkind of transition do you bring
to their lives from prison backinto society?
Stacey Campbell (24:57):
Back into society.
So that's our bridge careprogram, where we have a team of
two individuals that will walkalongside that person for three
to 36 months, and sometimes it'slonger.
We have some people that are inthe four-year category, but we
walk alongside them and justhelp to break down.
Okay, this week you're justgoing to do these two things,
because it's overwhelming, brian, somebody could have been in.
(25:19):
They've burnt all their bridges.
They have no relationships inthe community.
Now they've got a criminalrecord.
How are they going to get a job?
And we know you need stablecommunity, stable housing and
stable employment in order to besuccessful.
So we work toward thoseobjectives and then, when the
person is ready, getting themestablished in a faith community
(25:40):
.
Brian Stiller (25:40):
Yeah, when the person is ready getting them
established in a faith community.
Yeah, a few years ago I wentwith Ron Nickel, the former
international director of prisonfellowship, and we spent a
number of weeks in CentralAmerica visiting seven prisons,
and some of them were in ElSalvador and Ecuador and other
places were mind boggling.
I can't imagine that a personcould live more than a week in a
(26:01):
place like that.
But what I did come in touchwith was a program called Angel
Tree.
Tell us about that, yeah.
Stacey Campbell (26:09):
So Angel Tree started in the US and it was
actually a bank robber, a womanwho was a bank robber, who went
to prison and found what allprisoners find at Christmas is
this horrible reality sets inthat you actually have nothing
to give to your child and can'tgive anything, and so she was
wrapping up little soaps thatshe got instead of using them so
(26:31):
that she could send that hometo her children.
Anyway, when she got out, maryKay Beard was her name, and when
she got out she came to workfor Prison Fellowship in the US
and started the Angel TreeProgram.
So the Angel Tree Programallows it's initiated by the
prisoner and they can fill outan application to get a small
gift sent to their child.
And here in Canada we also putin a room where put room on the
(26:55):
application where they can fillout a message to their child in
their own handwriting and thatgoes on the gift.
And then the local church.
We look for local churches inthe area where that child lives
to shop for, purchase and wrapthe gift and then deliver it to
the child and hopefully eveninvite them to your church.
And so 5,009 children here inCanada we took care of last year
(27:19):
.
Brian Stiller (27:20):
And what does that do to the family?
Stacey Campbell (27:22):
So for the family, oftentimes it's the only
gift that that child is goingto get.
As you can imagine, like yousaid, 97% of our prisoners are
male and when a father goes toprison, the family is often
quickly descends into povertyand so there isn't money for
Christmas gifts or a tree oranything like that.
So for the family it'sdefinitely very welcome because
(27:45):
the child has a gift and thenthe child is connected to their
father and that has a whole listof ramifications, positive
ramifications for a child.
A child who's connected to aparent, even an incarcerated
parent, is more likely to go outfor sports, more likely to join
extracurricular events, morelikely to initiate socially All
(28:09):
those pro-social things that wewant to keep, these that we want
to see in these kids so thatthey're not joining that cycle
of crime, because there is amuch higher predisposition to
them going to prison as well ifthey've got an incarcerated
parent.
Brian Stiller (28:25):
What do you need here in Canada?
What does Prison Fellowshipneed globally to do its ministry
of caring for prison?
Stacey Campbell (28:33):
Yeah, we need the church community to come
alongside of us.
I know it's a fearful thing tothink about coming alongside of
a prisoner, particularly in thecommunity, but there's lots of
training and you know lots ofstories from volunteers who will
say it's their favorite day istheir PFC day.
And we need the church toengage with us and join us in
(28:55):
helping to minister to prisonersand ex-prisoners, in helping to
minister to prisoners andex-prisoners.
So another area that we need inour restorative practice work I
had mentioned that, brian thatwe bring surrogate victims into
the prison who share the impactof the crime and typically
they're 10 to 15 years away fromwhen their crime happened to
them.
But we need people who haveexperienced crime to come and
(29:21):
volunteer to share their storiesof how they were impacted at
the time, two years later, fiveyears later, 10 years later, and
to come into a circle andexplain that to an offender.
Brian Stiller (29:32):
Yeah, and are prisoners open to hearing those
stories?
Stacey Campbell (29:36):
And there's actually statistics behind it
and the statistics say that 40%of victims want to meet their
offender and 40%.
Coincidentally, 40% ofoffenders want to meet the
person that they harmed, fordialogue, to apologize, to
express remorse.
They're not the same 40%, ofcourse.
That matches up perfectly, butit is really redemptive work.
Brian Stiller (30:01):
What does that look like?
Take me into a prison where avictim he or she is in telling
their story.
Are they sitting, are theystanding in front of a crowd, or
just two or three prisoners?
What does it look like?
Stacey Campbell (30:17):
So we operate the restorative practice in a
circle, typically have up to 12offenders between six and 12
offenders that are in the circle, and they're the one they have
gone through for months.
They have gone through workwith us as they prepare to meet
a surrogate.
Brian Stiller (30:32):
Oh, so you're prepping them on the?
It's not just a chanceencounter.
No, it's part of a longer termstrategy.
Stacey Campbell (30:40):
Yeah, and also we don't want to re A hundred
percent yeah.
So every staff member at PFCgoes into the prison half a day
(31:03):
a week, so, and they may dodifferent programs.
Some might work in bridge care,some might work in Bible
studies.
Brian Stiller (31:09):
Bridge, care is the transition out.
Stacey Campbell (31:11):
Yeah, the transition out.
So I myself work once a weekwith the restorative practice
program, so, and I'm I'mactually running one right now
and have have victims coming intomorrow night to the, to the
prisoner and to the prison inKitchener, and so what we do
with that circle?
We understand what their crimesare and so we look for
(31:31):
surrogate victims who havesuffered the same harms as what
you say surrogate victims, notjust a victim not just a victim,
because a victim would be thedirect, they would be each
other's direct victims.
So surrogate in the fact thatthis person has lost someone due
to, you know, a drunk drivingincident where someone was
(31:51):
killed.
This one has perpetrated it.
They're not each other'svictims, but they share an
uncommon understanding becausethey're linked by the same crime
.
Brian Stiller (32:02):
So that victim, or that surrogate victim, as you
call them, comes in and sitsand tells his or her story.
Stacey Campbell (32:09):
Yep Comes in and tells the impact of what it
was like to suffer that crime.
Brian Stiller (32:13):
And do they read a script or do they just talk?
Stacey Campbell (32:16):
They can both Either.
Some are more comfortable towrite it out before they come
and then read that and then lookup and answer questions, and
some just come in and tell theirstories.
Brian Stiller (32:27):
And what's the atmosphere?
Stacey Campbell (32:30):
It's tense.
It's tense to start with.
Certainly, some come in andthey express anger.
Brian Stiller (32:36):
Who.
Stacey Campbell (32:37):
The victim, yeah for sure At what's happened
and and really a realfrustration about just wanting
to understand why did you pickme?
Was it random?
Was it, was it on purpose?
Why did you do this?
Why?
Why do you commit these crimes?
Why do you sell drugs?
Can you not see that my nephewwas, you know whatever state he
(32:59):
was already in?
And how could you do that?
And then the offenders share oh, we don't even see that.
We are so focused on justgetting money so that we can
live.
We're not even looking at that.
And so they answer those whyquestions and those what if?
Questions that a victim carriesfor decades.
Brian Stiller (33:22):
So a person goes through that restorative justice
process, what does thatultimately bring into their
lives for the future?
Stacey Campbell (33:31):
So, for the surrogate victim, a huge measure
of healing.
And a lot of them will say Isaw remorse.
It wasn't the person whoactually committed the crime,
but I saw remorse and that's allI needed.
That's what I needed.
We have an individual right nowwho threw a drunk driving
accident and is a paraplegic,and the individual who was
(33:52):
responsible had good lawyers andhad lawyers that delayed the
individual long enough that bythe time they did a breathalyzer
, they were under the legallimit and the person walked and
it was a friend that she knewand never saw them again and
wondered wow, I've been sittingin this wheelchair for 15 years.
Like, did you ever think aboutme?
Like, have I ever crossed yourmind?
(34:14):
And so came in and sees anoffender that we've got in the
facility who did the same thing,had an impaired charge causing
significant bodily harm, and sowas able to ask her questions
about what about this?
And do you think about yourvictim?
And what's a sample of youthinking about your victim?
(34:36):
And she's like yep, I carry hisimpact statement in my wallet
and I read it every morning whenI wake up.
That was hugely healing for theindividual.
that doesn't know if someoneever thought, thinks of her.
Brian Stiller (34:50):
So what drives you every day?
Stacey Campbell (34:54):
It's a calling, Brian for sure, and I am as
excited about prison fellowshiptoday as I was when I got here
16 years ago.
And you know, I just I loveJesus and I feel really close to
him when I'm in the prison andto see repair and to see lives
(35:16):
healed and reconciled.
I think it heals a little pieceof my heart and I love the work
.
It is so life-giving, it ishard, it's hard work, but it is
so life-giving and he's justthere.
Brian Stiller (35:31):
But you don't take Jesus there.
Stacey Campbell (35:33):
No, he's already there.
Brian Stiller (35:34):
He's already there.
Stacey Campbell (35:35):
He's already there, but we highlight him and
we say, see, there he is.
Brian Stiller (35:41):
Thank you so much for being with us today on
Evangelical 360.
Stacey Campbell (35:44):
Thanks, Brian
Brian Stiller (35:44):
, thank you, stacey, for joining us today and
for helping us to see and hearthose we far too often forget or
ignore, and thank you for beinga part of the podcast.
I'd be grateful if you wouldsubscribe and share this episode
using hashtag Evangelical360.
(36:05):
If you'd like to learn moreabout today's guest, be sure to
check the show notes ordescription below, and if you
haven't already received my freee-book and newsletter, just go
to brianstillercom.
Thanks again, until next time.
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