May 30, 2025 • 36 mins
Against all predictions, Africa has become the world's fastest-growing center of Christianity. Rev. Dr. Goodwill Shana, Executive Chair of the World Evangelical Alliance and prominent Zimbabwean pastor, brings us inside this remarkable transformation while sharing his own unlikely journey from orphaned boy to global church leader.
Growing up fatherless during Zimbabwe's colonial period, Dr. Shana initially pursued law driven by a passion for justice. Despite the injustices around him, a white Baptist missionary became his spiritual father—teaching him early to separate systemic problems from individuals. This perspective would prove invaluable as he reluctantly transitioned from legal practice to church leadership during Zimbabwe's turbulent political history.
Pastor Goodwill offers fresh insights on several critical issues facing global Christianity. He challenges misconceptions about evangelicalism, arguing that its political associations in Western contexts shouldn't define the movement worldwide. "Evangelicalism is not the same as being politically right-wing," he explains. "Evangelicalism really is about Judeo-Christian values that are enunciated in the New Testament." The term itself, he believes, remains valuable: "Evangelical is in the Bible. Evangelical is good news."
As Executive Chair of an organization representing over 600 million Christians through approximately 140 national alliances, Pastor Goodwill sees the WEA providing crucial stability in what military strategists call a "VUCA world"—volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous. While many institutions and relationships fragment, the evangelical movement offers certainty, dependability, and global community.
Perhaps most powerfully, Dr. Shana's personal testimony embodies hope for anyone feeling insignificant or overlooked. "God is a God of grace and He's a God of the improbable," he shares. "Our God can touch and use and transform anyone from anywhere to be anything in the world, because people's value is not defined by where they come from, or what they weigh or which family they belong to, but which God they belong to."
You can learn more about Rev. Dr. Goodwill Shana and the World Evangelical Alliance through their website and Facebook.
And you can share this episode using hashtag #Evangelical360 and join the conversation online!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brian Stiller (00:09):
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm your host, Brian Stiller,and I'm pleased to share with
you another conversation withleaders, changemakers and
influencers those impactingChristian life around the world.
We'd love for you to be a partof the podcast by sharing this
episode using hashtagEvangelical360 and by joining
(00:31):
the conversation on YouTube inthe comments below.
My guest today is the ReverendDr Goodwill Shana, a pastor and
former lawyer from Zimbabwe.
Over the last 35 years, pastorGoodwill has led and founded
national and internationalministries, from starting a
church with four people that hasgrown to over 15,000 members to
(00:53):
serving as president of theAssociation of Evangelicals in
Africa and chair of the WorldEvangelical Alliance.
In the 20th century,missiologists were sure that
Africa would be dominated by theIslamic faith.
How wrong they were.
The Reverend Dr Goodwill Shanaknows a lot about this
incredible development and hispersonal testimony emerges from
(01:16):
its context.
I'm grateful that we have theopportunity to learn from and be
challenged by Pastor Goodwilltoday.
Goodwill Shana, thank you forjoining us on Evangelical 360
today.
Goodwill Shana (01:30):
Thank you, Brian , for having me.
It's wonderful to be on thispodcast.
Brian Stiller (01:35):
There are a lot of things that I want to go over
with you today and I want toget to the issue of your life
and where you began and yourinvolvement in leadership
globally.
And where you began and yourinvolvement in leadership
globally.
But I think it'd be interestingto look at Africa as what is
becoming the largest Christiancontinent in the world.
I remember back in 1910, thefirst missionary conference in
(01:59):
Edinburgh, and they concludedthat by the end of the 20th
century, most of Africasub-Sahara Africa would be
Islamic.
But the fact that it went fromabout five and a half million
Christians at that point to, 100years later, over 560 million
Christians in Africa what isthere about Africa that draws
(02:22):
that seems to align itself withthe Christian gospel?
Goodwill Shana (02:25):
Well, I think we could say some of its cultural
values.
I think there's an innate value, that in African culture that
draws itself to God.
I think that cultural value waseasy to tap into from an
evangelical, Christian point ofview.
From evangelization, themissionaries were not coming
(02:49):
into an atheistic society, theywere coming into a society that
believed in God and believed inthe supernatural.
So it was easy, I suppose, tomake inroads in that regard.
And of course Africa is a veryintertwined community, so if you
touch one strand of thatcommunity it is bound to affect
(03:11):
many, many other strands.
So I would say in a sense thatwas the beginning or the
foundation of the catalyticeffects that the gospel had in
Africa.
Brian Stiller (03:23):
To what degree did the colonial enterprises of
the 18th and 19th, and even theearly part of the 20th century
contribute?
Did it contribute, Did itdistort the gospel?
Goodwill Shana (03:35):
In some ways it contributed to the gospel.
There is no doubt that AfricanChristianity today wouldn't be
what it is without missionaryintervention, and for that we
are grateful.
But of course we know thatevery missionary brings with
them their own social values andcultures, and those social
values and cultures sometimesdid not translate very well in
(04:00):
an African context and to thatextent it sort of distorted what
the gospel is.
In some cases the gospel wasidentifiable or identical with
white colonial rule or Europeanculture, and yet we know that
the gospel is the culture thatGod wants for every human being
(04:21):
in the world.
So I think there are pros andcons.
There are some great stuff thatmissionaries brought, but they
brought with them also certainthings that distorted and
contorted the gospel.
Brian Stiller (04:32):
The post-colonial era and the rise of indigenous
leadership.
Was that a remarked differenceto how the church operated and
grew?
Goodwill Shana (04:43):
Again, in some ways it was the same, because
the gospel is the gospel,regardless of where you plant it
.
But I think it was thesocialization of it, making it
contextual, that made thedifference.
It was Africans preaching toother Africans, and so it was
that much easier to connect andto identify.
(05:03):
It was no longer a foreigngospel, it was now a local,
contextual, social gospel, fromone person that lived in the
same community to another personin the same community.
So there's a lot of barriersthat came down because people
know one another and so whenpeople are transformed by the
gospel, the community can seethat.
(05:23):
But if it is imported orparachuted from outside, it's a
little more difficult toactually believe its
authenticity.
Brian Stiller (05:31):
You live in Zimbabwe.
Your life began in that country, to the south of South Africa,
in a time when it was very muchruled by the British.
In a time when it was very muchruled by the British, how did
your life emerge as a young boy,and how did you move from
becoming a lawyer to being achurch leader?
Goodwill Shana (05:54):
The Zimbabwean context for me has played a
significant role in shaping whoI am, and I suppose God allows
people to be extracted fromtheir backgrounds for a
particular reason, but for me,having grown up in very
challenging circumstances and ina culture that was generally
(06:15):
unjust and pivoted for onesection of society, there was a
motivation, a desire in me towork for justice, to work for
equality, to work for the valueof all humanity, and so that was
my early motivations as a youngperson and now, thank God, I
(06:36):
got born again when I was young.
So there was this sense thatlife could be different, that
all human beings were equal andthat justice could only be
received or acquired from abiblical perspective, from a
love perspective, from aninclusive perspective, because
God loved all of the world.
So those were some of myearliest thoughts, if I can
(06:59):
remember a drive for justice, adrive for equality, a drive to
speak on behalf of the voicelessand the poor, and so that, I
think, attracted me to be alawyer, although it was not very
attractive.
At that time.
The church, and especially thePentecostal churches, preached
(07:20):
very much against lawyers,preached very much against
lawyers.
They thought lawyers weredefenders of criminals and
murderers and all things thatwere immoral in a society.
They could find the escapethrough the sweet tongue of
lawyers.
So it was not an easy decisionto make at that time.
Brian Stiller (07:38):
You were dominated by the white community
.
Were you a bit of an angryyoung man?
Goodwill Shana (07:48):
community.
Were you a bit of an angryyoung man?
Interestingly, I was not angry.
I knew there was injustice, Iknew things were not wrong, but
I think God helped me not to beangry because my mentor, the
person that led me to Christ,was a white Baptist missionary.
His name was Robert E Beatty.
He was like a father to me,because I grew up without a dad
was Robert E Beatty.
It was like a father to mebecause I grew up without a dad.
(08:10):
So it was very difficult tocategorize all people as being
oppressive or white people asbeing evil, because I had one
special person in my life whowas very, very sweet and very
dear to me, who mentored me orwho came after me in the
township, and so no, I was ableto differentiate between
injustice and people or races orpeople who could perpetrate
(08:32):
injustice, and I think that thatdistinction has helped me to
maintain my position, evenpost-colonial, post-independence
, because I discovered thatinjustice could also come from
black people, and so I learnedvery early not to be angry at
color or at race or at originsof people.
(08:54):
It's the heart that reallymakes a difference, and that was
what I wanted to change.
Brian Stiller (09:00):
Now, were you a lawyer during the time of Mugabe
his rule, or were you in churchleadership by then?
Goodwill Shana (09:07):
No, I started off a lawyer.
I was trained as a lawyer.
I only became a church leaderlater, reluctantly.
I was dragged into pastoralministry, screaming and howling
and complaining, but my initialdesire was really not to be a
pastor.
In my eyes, pastors were verysweet but ineffective people.
(09:30):
The ones that I saw around mycommunity were old people.
There were not many youngpastors there.
They were old, very sweet, veryineffective and completely
irrelevant sort of people.
They always wore thesehang-me-down clothes from
missionaries.
They didn't look veryattractive to me, so I didn't
start off wanting to be a pastor.
(09:51):
I started off wanting to be alawyer, and then God called me
out of that trajectory.
Brian Stiller (09:57):
How did you manage your time during the
Mugabe leadership of Zimbabwe?
Goodwill Shana (10:02):
For a long time I wrestled between being a
lawyer and being a pastor,because in the eyes of the
society those were twocompletely different things.
But as we began to engage theregime of Robert Mugabe, it
became very clear that we neededvalue-led leadership.
We needed leadership that wouldstand on two components.
(10:23):
First of all, it was aleadership that had to have
people at heart, that was lovingof people, that was principled,
because much of the leadershipthat we have experienced in
Zimbabwe suffers from seriousprincipled deficits.
So we needed principledness, ifI can put it that way, and I
found that in being a pastor andI found that in being a lawyer.
(10:46):
But secondly, in engaging thedynamics of politics, it needed
a certain mindset, and being alawyer helped me to engage with
people at a certain intellectuallevel and be able to engage
with the structures and thedynamics of our politics without
fear.
So it was this very interestingcombination of legal thought,
(11:10):
mindset, rationality and theheart and the passion of a
pastor combined that helped meto engage Robert Mugabe without
compromising principle andwithout being reduced to the
usual label of pastors not beingable to be relevant to their
societies.
Brian Stiller (11:28):
In the last few years, though, you've emerged as
the executive chair of theWorld Evangelical Alliance,
which is this global body thatis representative, is voice for
over 600 million evangelicalChristians.
First of all, just for ourlisteners, give us your overall
definition to help understandthe World Evangelical Alliance.
Goodwill Shana (11:52):
The World Evangelical Alliance is
basically a unity in diversityof a range of evangelicals.
I mean, it's not one set oftraditions, but it's traditions
across the globe that believe oncertain basic things.
I think sometimes they'recalled the Beaverton Principles,
(12:14):
sometimes they're called theFive Solas, but those are some
of the basic principles thatbring us together.
And so for me, the WorldEvangelical Alliance is this
global, in a sense, church ofevangelicals coming together,
pursuing a unity in faith, aunity in doctrine, in touching
(12:34):
the world, in transforming theworld.
So for me that resonated very,very much with where I came from
, in Zimbabwe.
Brian Stiller (12:42):
And what is its prime objective and how does
that operate?
Goodwill Shana (12:47):
Its prime objective is to unite
evangelicals for gospeltransformation.
In other words, there is adrive to ensure that this
diversity, this wonderfultapestry of churches,
denominations and faiths acrossthe world, actually working
together to impact the world.
I think it very much resonateswith John 3, verse 16, for God
(13:12):
so loved the world, thiscollective of ethnicities and
languages and cultures anddiversities.
It is from these sameethnicities, diversities and
cultures that we draw ministryout of and ministry back into
the world.
So for me, that is what theWorld Evangelical Alliance is
(13:34):
about.
It's about bringing thisdiversity into unity so that it
can be projected back into theworld where it came from, for
gospel transformation.
Brian Stiller (13:44):
As you know, in certain parts of the world the
word evangelical seemingly hasbeen compromised by political
liaison.
Is there something aboutevangelicalism that aligns
itself with the politicalnationalism, or is this an
aberration?
Goodwill Shana (14:02):
I think it would be different in different
sections of the world, butgenerally, because we are
heavily influenced by Westernand Northern Hemisphere
definitions of evangelicalism inthe church, I think there are
two things that show up inevangelicalism that often
project it into the politicalarena.
I think the one is thatevangelicalism desires certain
(14:27):
principles and certainaccountability, and so when
those principles andaccountability whether it's
moral or spiritual are missing,there is an attempt to inject
that into society, and thenthere's a coincidence with
politics that may have thosesame values.
But evangelicalism is not thesame as being politically
(14:49):
right-wing or being politicallyconservative.
Evangelicalism really is aboutJudeo-Christian values that are
enunciated in the New Testament,and so somehow, as people
attempt to shape theircommunities, they often rely on
those values that they treasurethe most.
(15:12):
And the early history ofevangelicalism saw some
stalwarts of evangelicalisminfluencing the world of
politics and economics, likeWilliam Wilberforce, for
instance, or Martin Luther KingJr.
Those were people who weremotivated by their Christian
faith, and yet they wereprojected into the political
arena.
(15:32):
Faith, and yet they wereprojected into a political arena
.
And so, as the value, thepotency, the appeal of
evangelicalism became evidentout there, it was often confused
or amalgamated with politics,as we see, for instance, in
North America right now.
But evangelicalism and as webelieve it and political
(15:54):
evangelicalism are two differentthings.
Sometimes they may have thesame demographic, but they're
two different things and itwould be fantastic if that was
cleared.
In my world, where I come from,oftentimes the word
evangelicalism is identifiedwith American evangelicalism,
that kind of Christianity thattends to be politically active,
(16:17):
potent and aggressive and doesnot think twice about injecting
itself in the political arena,and that can be detrimental
sometimes.
Brian Stiller (16:25):
There's been talk about whether the word
evangelical needs to.
We need to find a new name forthe word evangelical, and I
recall Tim Keller, who passedaway, was pastor of a church in
New York City was asked thequestion and his response was
why should the rest of the worldallow 10% of the world to
self-define?
And so, I guess, the wordevangelical.
(16:49):
As you lead the world body,it's a word that I suppose, in
your view, is worth saving, isit not?
Goodwill Shana (16:58):
I think it is worth saving.
I can't imagine an alternative.
I think an alternative willprobably catapult us into some
long-winded discussion orcontroversy.
Evangelical is in the Bible.
Evangelical is good news.
Evangelical has a whole historyof goodness behind it.
We have built that identity.
(17:19):
Our identity is the worldevangelicalized based on that
word, which is good news, whichtalks about evangelization,
which talks about projecting thegood news of Jesus Christ into
the world.
I cannot, as this is anindividual opinion, I cannot
imagine another word that bestcaptures who we are from a
(17:40):
biblical perspective.
That would be very difficultfor me.
Brian Stiller (17:44):
Now the Evangelical Protestant Church is
something of the last fewhundred years.
How did the World EvangelicalAlliance form?
What were its roots?
Goodwill Shana (17:56):
I think it's well, when we go back to the
history of the EvangelicalAlliance in 1846 to 1848, it
really was driven by individualsand this is some of the
conversations that we've beenhaving recently that it was not
driven by institutionalmotivation.
It was really driven byindividuals who were looking for
(18:17):
an identity, an identity thatwas separate from Catholicism or
Reformed Protestant churchmovement, and for me, it is one
of the things that I think weneed to recapture this injection
of individual conviction intothe institutionalism called
evangelicalism.
(18:38):
And so people begin to grow thatgo back to their churches,
motivate the churches intodenominations, into nations, and
so the world evangelicalfellowship, as it eventually got
to be known, took form andshape around individuals who
were driven to see the unity ofthe body come together.
Brian Stiller (18:58):
Now, today is composed of what about 140-some
national alliances, countriesthat have their own indigenous
national alliance.
How does that body, those manyparts?
How does that work together?
Goodwill Shana (19:12):
Yeah, I think one of the beautiful things
about the World EvangelicalAlliance is that it is a
grassroots organization that hasgot structures that lead all
the way up to a global level.
So without the NationalEvangelical Alliances, the World
Evangelical Alliance would be ahead without a body without
(19:33):
feet, and so I think it is thisconnection to the local, it is
connection to communities at agrassroots level that actually
gives the World EvangelicalAlliance one of its greatest
value proposition.
It's not just theologicalpersons and big spiritual think
(19:54):
tanks at the top.
There is a structure thatconnects national alliances
through regional alliances intothe World Evangelical Alliance
that serve both regional andnational alliance.
It is this connection tograssroots and to the
international or global streamof families that makes WA quite
(20:19):
unique, I think.
Brian Stiller (20:21):
Now, as executive chair, you're looking to have
your general assembly in thefall of 2025.
What is the purpose of that andwhat do you hope to achieve?
Goodwill Shana (20:33):
Well, the General Assembly really is not
just the purpose of theexecutive chair, it is a
constitutional imperative.
The Constitution behoves us tohold a General Assembly every
six years and the reason forthat is that, as the Executive
Council or as any office bearer,we do this in stewardship to
(20:55):
millions of people around theworld and ever so often we need
to go and give account of ourstewardship, how we have led the
WEA, how we have acted onbehalf of their good faith and
their intentions and theirpurpose.
So the General Assembly reallyis primarily for the leadership
to give account to itsmembership, those that have
(21:16):
bestowed them the privilege ofleading.
Secondly, the General Assemblyis for the evangelicals around
the world to come together, toconfer together, to rethink,
reimagine and maybe craft a newjourney forward together.
And thirdly, I think that theGeneral Assembly is also an
(21:38):
opportunity to grapple withdevelopments, global
developments or theologicaldevelopments, so that all
together, the AA family sittingtogether, is talking together
about what to do with the worldthat they are faced around the
globe.
For me, those would be thethree primary reasons why we
(21:59):
would gather as the GeneralAssembly.
Brian Stiller (22:02):
Goodwill.
I think we've all beensurprised over the last period
of time, the last few years andeven months.
Surprised over the last periodof time, the last few years and
even months the widespreadpersecution of evangelicals and
of Christians globally.
This is a bit of a shock.
What is the role of WEA as itrelates to the persecuted
Christian?
Goodwill Shana (22:21):
Well, I think, interestingly enough, as we've
been having what we callconcentric circles of
conversation around WA, one ofthe things that WA is known for
is advocacy for the persecuted,for the marginalized sisters in
sections of the world where theyare a minority or where they
cannot express their faith,where they are actually being
(22:59):
killed or persecuted out ofengagement, and so, for me, I
think that the advocacy onbehalf of the persecuted is one
of the things that the WF bringson the table.
I can give you, for instance,our own story in Zimbabwe.
There was a time when, withsome serious human rights
violations in our country and anattempt to stifle the voice of
the church, the WEA took up ourconcerns and were able to
(23:22):
express them at the UnitedNations on our behalf.
There are instances where localbelievers, local churches,
don't have the power, the voiceor the courage sometimes to
speak up on certain things, andyou need another voice.
You need, if I can say, the bigbrother voice.
So you need a place where youcan run for refuge, people that
(23:45):
can speak on your behalf oradvocate on your behalf, and the
WEA, I think, has done asterling job in doing that.
Brian Stiller (23:52):
And how does its particular relationship to the
United Nations with this Genevaoffice?
How does that as an instrument?
How does it go about affectingthe places where Christians are
persecuted?
Goodwill Shana (24:05):
Well, the fantastic thing about having an
office is that you are present,and so if you are present,
oftentimes you cannot be ignored.
And the second thing is thatwhen people are present, they
begin to develop relationships,and it's no longer just
institutions or a labeling ofinstitutions.
People are able to have coffeetogether, discuss certain issues
(24:29):
heart to heart, human to human,and oftentimes it is in these
meetings that people have acertain understanding, from a
human point of view, from anempathy point of view, of the
need to speak on behalf of themarginalized, the persecuted,
you know, or the oppressed, and,of course, the United Nations.
(24:50):
We expect it to be a placewhere justice, equality and
liberty are safeguarded, and soI think that the office is there
to take advantage of that.
Brian Stiller (25:02):
Let's go back to Africa again, this remarkable
continent with an explosion ofChristian faith like no one ever
anticipated.
And yet in the middle of yourcountry, there are wars, nation
to nation, ethnicity toethnicity.
There are issues of corruptionthat can be mind-boggling at
(25:25):
times.
So here you are, a pastor inZimbabwe, but you also are
executive chair of the globalevangelical community.
What do you see happeningwithin the church in South
Africa that speaks into theseprofound issues of social and
moral dislocation?
Goodwill Shana (25:45):
I think one of the things that we experienced
from where I come from was thisquestion of if the church is
effective and in Zimbabwe it isa fairly significant influence
why is it that we are producingcitizens that tend to go towards
corruption or tend to gotowards political domineering
(26:10):
dynamics?
And so the church wasn't justaddressing the fact of
corruption or poor governance,it began to address itself.
And so we began to look atperhaps our model of church,
perhaps our model ofdiscipleship, perhaps the things
we describe as being virtuousand valuable and that people
(26:34):
should aim for, perhaps they'rethe wrong ones.
And so there was greatintrospection that has taken
place in the churches as to whatkind of people are being
produced through the church.
Many of the politicians,especially the ones in the
earlier days, were products ofmissionary schools and Christian
(26:55):
institutions.
So the question was how comethat they passed through our
hands and they ended up that way?
So another element wasrevisiting the definition of
leadership, revisiting thedefinition of leadership, and
many times we have overlookedthe Christ-like, christocentric
leadership, servant leadership.
(27:15):
Leadership just becamesomething that was bureaucratic
but never really shaped on thevalues of the Bible.
So the church began to revisitdefinitions, its own processes,
definitions of leadership.
And then, lastly, the churchalso began to revisit its
community responsibility, saltand light.
(27:36):
How can you be in a communityor in a nation and that
community or nation is degrading, and the church is a
significant and powerful forcein that.
So it was.
How do we turn this moral valueinto transformation?
How do we get to be salt andlight in a meaningful way?
(27:59):
So those are some of the thingsthat the church in Africa is
here to grapple with and isstill grappling with.
By the way, we are not out ofthe woods yet.
Brian Stiller (28:09):
I live in Canada, so that's my context, although
it's to the very person that I'minterviewing today.
So maybe full disclosure isgood.
But Goodwill, where I live,there is an assumption that
faith is on the demise, thatchurch attendance is diminishing
(28:31):
.
But worldwide there is thisenormous uptick in church
attendance in personal faith,given the demise of church
attendance in north america andin europe.
The assumption is that faith isdropping around the world, when
(28:56):
in fact it isn't so, as asexecutive chair of world
evangelical alliance, which isthe second largest christian
body in the world.
As you look to the future, whatdo you see the church globally
achieving or doing?
Goodwill Shana (29:13):
I think, from an evangelical perspective, I see
the WA getting stronger in anumber of ways For me.
I think that, withoutself-indulgent comparison, I
think we are pretty clear aboutwho we are and what our values,
biblical values, are.
And I think, in a world wherethere's identity, fluidity and
(29:40):
the cacophony of voices that areredefining everything, the WA
will remain that one solid.
The WA will remain that onesolid, dependable reference
point on issues pertaining tothe Bible and to faith in the
Lord Jesus Christ.
I think we live in a world thatis, as the American military
(30:02):
calls it, a VUCA world volatile,uncertain, complex, ambiguous.
It is in this volatile,uncertain, complex and ambiguous
world that the WA brings a highlevel of certainty, a high
level of dependability, a highlevel of reference, and I think
(30:23):
it is this point of referencingthat many people will be running
towards when there's so muchfluidity, so much ambiguity, so
much uncertainty.
I think the WA, by virtue ofbeing based on the Word of God
and on Jesus Christ, brings thisclarity of certainty For us.
In Africa, we have seen thatwhen there's this plethora and
(30:47):
upsurge of all kinds of crazydoctrines, people get tired and
weary.
They're not clear what is thetruth.
But I think WEA has built areservoir, has built a
reputation for staying with thetruth, for being dependable, for
being a reference point inmatters biblical and matters of
(31:09):
faith and value.
I think that will still be avery, very important
contribution that we make.
The second element that I thinkwe will bring is a sense of
community, is a sense ofcohesion.
I'm in Zimbabwe, but I feel agreat kinship with you from
Canada or from anywhere else,and in a world where social
(31:31):
cohesion and community isfraying and they're fragmenting,
I think the WA brings thissense of unity and cohesion
where we can be brothers andsisters across miles or
kilometers around the globe,this sense that we belong
somewhere.
And for us, for instance, inthe Zimbabwe Evangelical
(31:54):
Fellowship of Zimbabwe, we hadgrown sufficiently significant
in our country but we felt weneeded a home.
We felt in a sense I hate touse the word tribe because where
we come from, tribe has got abad connotation but we needed to
belong somewhere.
We needed to belong to a tribe,we needed to belong to
something bigger or greater thanourselves, and we found that
(32:18):
sense of identity, that sense ofbelonging, that sense of
security in the WA, and I daresay that we're not the only ones
, and not just from a nationalpoint of view, but from
institutional point of view,from an individual point of view
.
I think WS will still bringthat to bear in the world.
Brian Stiller (32:37):
Goodwill Shana, you have a remarkable story.
You began in Zimbabwe with ayoung boy without a father.
With a young boy without afather, you become a lawyer,
pastor, denominational leaderand now head of the World
Evangelical Alliance.
That's a remarkable story.
(32:57):
So, as we conclude, today speakto someone out there who is
wondering what opportunity.
They're caught in some smallplace and wonder how could God
ever use me?
What would you say to them?
Goodwill Shana (33:12):
I would say I think God is a God of grace and
he's a God of the improbable.
He picks up people,circumstances, situations we
would never pick up for Him touse, and the Bible is full of
all those kind of stories.
(33:33):
I mean stories like David theshepherd boy that got picked up.
For me, it is this inspirationof knowing that this God can use
, or can pick and use almostanyone in the world and use
almost anyone in the world.
You don't have to be born intohigh status or into royalty, and
(33:53):
our Lord Jesus Christ was aperfect example born to a
carpenter family, born in amanger, born in a small and
unknown village.
I think that's how God does it,and my story is not just a
unique story, it's a Bible story.
It's a story of how God cantake anyone from anywhere if
(34:22):
they are willing to be used, ofGod to touch anything anywhere
in the world and wherever peoplemight be today.
I think that's the beauty ofknowing our God, beauty of
knowing our God.
Our God is a God that can touchand use and transform anyone
from anywhere to be anything inthe world, because people are of
value.
Their value is not defined bywhere they come from, or what
they weigh or which family theybelong to, but which God they
(34:47):
belong to.
And for me I would pray thatthere would be many, many other
good Roshanahs across the world.
By the grace of God not becauseof my cleverness, but by the
grace and the goodness of GodGod can elevate people to play a
significant role in his kingdom.
Brian Stiller (35:04):
Goodwill Shana.
Thank you for joining us onEvangelical 360 today.
Goodwill Shana (35:10):
Thank you, Brian , for having me.
Brian Stiller (35:13):
Thank you, pastor Goodwill Shana, for joining us
today and for helping usunderstand the powerful and
historic witness of the AfricanChurch, and thank you for being
a part of the podcast.
Be sure to share this episodeusing hashtag Evangelical360 and
join in on the conversation onYouTube.
(35:33):
If you'd like to learn moreabout today's guest, be sure to
check the show notes for linksand info, and if you haven't
already received my free e-bookand newsletter, please go to
brianstillercom.
Thanks again, until next time.
(35:54):
Don't miss the next interview.
Be sure to subscribe toEvangelical 360 on YouTube.
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm your host, Brian Stiller,and I'm pleased to share with
you another conversation withleaders, changemakers and
influencers those impactingChristian life around the world.
We'd love for you to be a partof the podcast by sharing this
episode using hashtagEvangelical360 and by joining
(00:31):
the conversation on YouTube inthe comments below.
My guest today is the ReverendDr Goodwill Shana, a pastor and
former lawyer from Zimbabwe.
Over the last 35 years, pastorGoodwill has led and founded
national and internationalministries, from starting a
church with four people that hasgrown to over 15,000 members to
(00:53):
serving as president of theAssociation of Evangelicals in
Africa and chair of the WorldEvangelical Alliance.
In the 20th century,missiologists were sure that
Africa would be dominated by theIslamic faith.
How wrong they were.
The Reverend Dr Goodwill Shanaknows a lot about this
incredible development and hispersonal testimony emerges from
(01:16):
its context.
I'm grateful that we have theopportunity to learn from and be
challenged by Pastor Goodwilltoday.
Goodwill Shana, thank you forjoining us on Evangelical 360
today.
Goodwill Shana (01:30):
Thank you, Brian , for having me.
It's wonderful to be on thispodcast.
Brian Stiller (01:35):
There are a lot of things that I want to go over
with you today and I want toget to the issue of your life
and where you began and yourinvolvement in leadership
globally.
And where you began and yourinvolvement in leadership
globally.
But I think it'd be interestingto look at Africa as what is
becoming the largest Christiancontinent in the world.
I remember back in 1910, thefirst missionary conference in
(01:59):
Edinburgh, and they concludedthat by the end of the 20th
century, most of Africasub-Sahara Africa would be
Islamic.
But the fact that it went fromabout five and a half million
Christians at that point to, 100years later, over 560 million
Christians in Africa what isthere about Africa that draws
(02:22):
that seems to align itself withthe Christian gospel?
Goodwill Shana (02:25):
Well, I think we could say some of its cultural
values.
I think there's an innate value, that in African culture that
draws itself to God.
I think that cultural value waseasy to tap into from an
evangelical, Christian point ofview.
From evangelization, themissionaries were not coming
(02:49):
into an atheistic society, theywere coming into a society that
believed in God and believed inthe supernatural.
So it was easy, I suppose, tomake inroads in that regard.
And of course Africa is a veryintertwined community, so if you
touch one strand of thatcommunity it is bound to affect
(03:11):
many, many other strands.
So I would say in a sense thatwas the beginning or the
foundation of the catalyticeffects that the gospel had in
Africa.
Brian Stiller (03:23):
To what degree did the colonial enterprises of
the 18th and 19th, and even theearly part of the 20th century
contribute?
Did it contribute, Did itdistort the gospel?
Goodwill Shana (03:35):
In some ways it contributed to the gospel.
There is no doubt that AfricanChristianity today wouldn't be
what it is without missionaryintervention, and for that we
are grateful.
But of course we know thatevery missionary brings with
them their own social values andcultures, and those social
values and cultures sometimesdid not translate very well in
(04:00):
an African context and to thatextent it sort of distorted what
the gospel is.
In some cases the gospel wasidentifiable or identical with
white colonial rule or Europeanculture, and yet we know that
the gospel is the culture thatGod wants for every human being
(04:21):
in the world.
So I think there are pros andcons.
There are some great stuff thatmissionaries brought, but they
brought with them also certainthings that distorted and
contorted the gospel.
Brian Stiller (04:32):
The post-colonial era and the rise of indigenous
leadership.
Was that a remarked differenceto how the church operated and
grew?
Goodwill Shana (04:43):
Again, in some ways it was the same, because
the gospel is the gospel,regardless of where you plant it
.
But I think it was thesocialization of it, making it
contextual, that made thedifference.
It was Africans preaching toother Africans, and so it was
that much easier to connect andto identify.
(05:03):
It was no longer a foreigngospel, it was now a local,
contextual, social gospel, fromone person that lived in the
same community to another personin the same community.
So there's a lot of barriersthat came down because people
know one another and so whenpeople are transformed by the
gospel, the community can seethat.
(05:23):
But if it is imported orparachuted from outside, it's a
little more difficult toactually believe its
authenticity.
Brian Stiller (05:31):
You live in Zimbabwe.
Your life began in that country, to the south of South Africa,
in a time when it was very muchruled by the British.
In a time when it was very muchruled by the British, how did
your life emerge as a young boy,and how did you move from
becoming a lawyer to being achurch leader?
Goodwill Shana (05:54):
The Zimbabwean context for me has played a
significant role in shaping whoI am, and I suppose God allows
people to be extracted fromtheir backgrounds for a
particular reason, but for me,having grown up in very
challenging circumstances and ina culture that was generally
(06:15):
unjust and pivoted for onesection of society, there was a
motivation, a desire in me towork for justice, to work for
equality, to work for the valueof all humanity, and so that was
my early motivations as a youngperson and now, thank God, I
(06:36):
got born again when I was young.
So there was this sense thatlife could be different, that
all human beings were equal andthat justice could only be
received or acquired from abiblical perspective, from a
love perspective, from aninclusive perspective, because
God loved all of the world.
So those were some of myearliest thoughts, if I can
(06:59):
remember a drive for justice, adrive for equality, a drive to
speak on behalf of the voicelessand the poor, and so that, I
think, attracted me to be alawyer, although it was not very
attractive.
At that time.
The church, and especially thePentecostal churches, preached
(07:20):
very much against lawyers,preached very much against
lawyers.
They thought lawyers weredefenders of criminals and
murderers and all things thatwere immoral in a society.
They could find the escapethrough the sweet tongue of
lawyers.
So it was not an easy decisionto make at that time.
Brian Stiller (07:38):
You were dominated by the white community
.
Were you a bit of an angryyoung man?
Goodwill Shana (07:48):
community.
Were you a bit of an angryyoung man?
Interestingly, I was not angry.
I knew there was injustice, Iknew things were not wrong, but
I think God helped me not to beangry because my mentor, the
person that led me to Christ,was a white Baptist missionary.
His name was Robert E Beatty.
He was like a father to me,because I grew up without a dad
was Robert E Beatty.
It was like a father to mebecause I grew up without a dad.
(08:10):
So it was very difficult tocategorize all people as being
oppressive or white people asbeing evil, because I had one
special person in my life whowas very, very sweet and very
dear to me, who mentored me orwho came after me in the
township, and so no, I was ableto differentiate between
injustice and people or races orpeople who could perpetrate
(08:32):
injustice, and I think that thatdistinction has helped me to
maintain my position, evenpost-colonial, post-independence
, because I discovered thatinjustice could also come from
black people, and so I learnedvery early not to be angry at
color or at race or at originsof people.
(08:54):
It's the heart that reallymakes a difference, and that was
what I wanted to change.
Brian Stiller (09:00):
Now, were you a lawyer during the time of Mugabe
his rule, or were you in churchleadership by then?
Goodwill Shana (09:07):
No, I started off a lawyer.
I was trained as a lawyer.
I only became a church leaderlater, reluctantly.
I was dragged into pastoralministry, screaming and howling
and complaining, but my initialdesire was really not to be a
pastor.
In my eyes, pastors were verysweet but ineffective people.
(09:30):
The ones that I saw around mycommunity were old people.
There were not many youngpastors there.
They were old, very sweet, veryineffective and completely
irrelevant sort of people.
They always wore thesehang-me-down clothes from
missionaries.
They didn't look veryattractive to me, so I didn't
start off wanting to be a pastor.
(09:51):
I started off wanting to be alawyer, and then God called me
out of that trajectory.
Brian Stiller (09:57):
How did you manage your time during the
Mugabe leadership of Zimbabwe?
Goodwill Shana (10:02):
For a long time I wrestled between being a
lawyer and being a pastor,because in the eyes of the
society those were twocompletely different things.
But as we began to engage theregime of Robert Mugabe, it
became very clear that we neededvalue-led leadership.
We needed leadership that wouldstand on two components.
(10:23):
First of all, it was aleadership that had to have
people at heart, that was lovingof people, that was principled,
because much of the leadershipthat we have experienced in
Zimbabwe suffers from seriousprincipled deficits.
So we needed principledness, ifI can put it that way, and I
found that in being a pastor andI found that in being a lawyer.
(10:46):
But secondly, in engaging thedynamics of politics, it needed
a certain mindset, and being alawyer helped me to engage with
people at a certain intellectuallevel and be able to engage
with the structures and thedynamics of our politics without
fear.
So it was this very interestingcombination of legal thought,
(11:10):
mindset, rationality and theheart and the passion of a
pastor combined that helped meto engage Robert Mugabe without
compromising principle andwithout being reduced to the
usual label of pastors not beingable to be relevant to their
societies.
Brian Stiller (11:28):
In the last few years, though, you've emerged as
the executive chair of theWorld Evangelical Alliance,
which is this global body thatis representative, is voice for
over 600 million evangelicalChristians.
First of all, just for ourlisteners, give us your overall
definition to help understandthe World Evangelical Alliance.
Goodwill Shana (11:52):
The World Evangelical Alliance is
basically a unity in diversityof a range of evangelicals.
I mean, it's not one set oftraditions, but it's traditions
across the globe that believe oncertain basic things.
I think sometimes they'recalled the Beaverton Principles,
(12:14):
sometimes they're called theFive Solas, but those are some
of the basic principles thatbring us together.
And so for me, the WorldEvangelical Alliance is this
global, in a sense, church ofevangelicals coming together,
pursuing a unity in faith, aunity in doctrine, in touching
(12:34):
the world, in transforming theworld.
So for me that resonated very,very much with where I came from
, in Zimbabwe.
Brian Stiller (12:42):
And what is its prime objective and how does
that operate?
Goodwill Shana (12:47):
Its prime objective is to unite
evangelicals for gospeltransformation.
In other words, there is adrive to ensure that this
diversity, this wonderfultapestry of churches,
denominations and faiths acrossthe world, actually working
together to impact the world.
I think it very much resonateswith John 3, verse 16, for God
(13:12):
so loved the world, thiscollective of ethnicities and
languages and cultures anddiversities.
It is from these sameethnicities, diversities and
cultures that we draw ministryout of and ministry back into
the world.
So for me, that is what theWorld Evangelical Alliance is
(13:34):
about.
It's about bringing thisdiversity into unity so that it
can be projected back into theworld where it came from, for
gospel transformation.
Brian Stiller (13:44):
As you know, in certain parts of the world the
word evangelical seemingly hasbeen compromised by political
liaison.
Is there something aboutevangelicalism that aligns
itself with the politicalnationalism, or is this an
aberration?
Goodwill Shana (14:02):
I think it would be different in different
sections of the world, butgenerally, because we are
heavily influenced by Westernand Northern Hemisphere
definitions of evangelicalism inthe church, I think there are
two things that show up inevangelicalism that often
project it into the politicalarena.
I think the one is thatevangelicalism desires certain
(14:27):
principles and certainaccountability, and so when
those principles andaccountability whether it's
moral or spiritual are missing,there is an attempt to inject
that into society, and thenthere's a coincidence with
politics that may have thosesame values.
But evangelicalism is not thesame as being politically
(14:49):
right-wing or being politicallyconservative.
Evangelicalism really is aboutJudeo-Christian values that are
enunciated in the New Testament,and so somehow, as people
attempt to shape theircommunities, they often rely on
those values that they treasurethe most.
(15:12):
And the early history ofevangelicalism saw some
stalwarts of evangelicalisminfluencing the world of
politics and economics, likeWilliam Wilberforce, for
instance, or Martin Luther KingJr.
Those were people who weremotivated by their Christian
faith, and yet they wereprojected into the political
arena.
(15:32):
Faith, and yet they wereprojected into a political arena
.
And so, as the value, thepotency, the appeal of
evangelicalism became evidentout there, it was often confused
or amalgamated with politics,as we see, for instance, in
North America right now.
But evangelicalism and as webelieve it and political
(15:54):
evangelicalism are two differentthings.
Sometimes they may have thesame demographic, but they're
two different things and itwould be fantastic if that was
cleared.
In my world, where I come from,oftentimes the word
evangelicalism is identifiedwith American evangelicalism,
that kind of Christianity thattends to be politically active,
(16:17):
potent and aggressive and doesnot think twice about injecting
itself in the political arena,and that can be detrimental
sometimes.
Brian Stiller (16:25):
There's been talk about whether the word
evangelical needs to.
We need to find a new name forthe word evangelical, and I
recall Tim Keller, who passedaway, was pastor of a church in
New York City was asked thequestion and his response was
why should the rest of the worldallow 10% of the world to
self-define?
And so, I guess, the wordevangelical.
(16:49):
As you lead the world body,it's a word that I suppose, in
your view, is worth saving, isit not?
Goodwill Shana (16:58):
I think it is worth saving.
I can't imagine an alternative.
I think an alternative willprobably catapult us into some
long-winded discussion orcontroversy.
Evangelical is in the Bible.
Evangelical is good news.
Evangelical has a whole historyof goodness behind it.
We have built that identity.
(17:19):
Our identity is the worldevangelicalized based on that
word, which is good news, whichtalks about evangelization,
which talks about projecting thegood news of Jesus Christ into
the world.
I cannot, as this is anindividual opinion, I cannot
imagine another word that bestcaptures who we are from a
(17:40):
biblical perspective.
That would be very difficultfor me.
Brian Stiller (17:44):
Now the Evangelical Protestant Church is
something of the last fewhundred years.
How did the World EvangelicalAlliance form?
What were its roots?
Goodwill Shana (17:56):
I think it's well, when we go back to the
history of the EvangelicalAlliance in 1846 to 1848, it
really was driven by individualsand this is some of the
conversations that we've beenhaving recently that it was not
driven by institutionalmotivation.
It was really driven byindividuals who were looking for
(18:17):
an identity, an identity thatwas separate from Catholicism or
Reformed Protestant churchmovement, and for me, it is one
of the things that I think weneed to recapture this injection
of individual conviction intothe institutionalism called
evangelicalism.
(18:38):
And so people begin to grow thatgo back to their churches,
motivate the churches intodenominations, into nations, and
so the world evangelicalfellowship, as it eventually got
to be known, took form andshape around individuals who
were driven to see the unity ofthe body come together.
Brian Stiller (18:58):
Now, today is composed of what about 140-some
national alliances, countriesthat have their own indigenous
national alliance.
How does that body, those manyparts?
How does that work together?
Goodwill Shana (19:12):
Yeah, I think one of the beautiful things
about the World EvangelicalAlliance is that it is a
grassroots organization that hasgot structures that lead all
the way up to a global level.
So without the NationalEvangelical Alliances, the World
Evangelical Alliance would be ahead without a body without
(19:33):
feet, and so I think it is thisconnection to the local, it is
connection to communities at agrassroots level that actually
gives the World EvangelicalAlliance one of its greatest
value proposition.
It's not just theologicalpersons and big spiritual think
(19:54):
tanks at the top.
There is a structure thatconnects national alliances
through regional alliances intothe World Evangelical Alliance
that serve both regional andnational alliance.
It is this connection tograssroots and to the
international or global streamof families that makes WA quite
(20:19):
unique, I think.
Brian Stiller (20:21):
Now, as executive chair, you're looking to have
your general assembly in thefall of 2025.
What is the purpose of that andwhat do you hope to achieve?
Goodwill Shana (20:33):
Well, the General Assembly really is not
just the purpose of theexecutive chair, it is a
constitutional imperative.
The Constitution behoves us tohold a General Assembly every
six years and the reason forthat is that, as the Executive
Council or as any office bearer,we do this in stewardship to
(20:55):
millions of people around theworld and ever so often we need
to go and give account of ourstewardship, how we have led the
WEA, how we have acted onbehalf of their good faith and
their intentions and theirpurpose.
So the General Assembly reallyis primarily for the leadership
to give account to itsmembership, those that have
(21:16):
bestowed them the privilege ofleading.
Secondly, the General Assemblyis for the evangelicals around
the world to come together, toconfer together, to rethink,
reimagine and maybe craft a newjourney forward together.
And thirdly, I think that theGeneral Assembly is also an
(21:38):
opportunity to grapple withdevelopments, global
developments or theologicaldevelopments, so that all
together, the AA family sittingtogether, is talking together
about what to do with the worldthat they are faced around the
globe.
For me, those would be thethree primary reasons why we
(21:59):
would gather as the GeneralAssembly.
Brian Stiller (22:02):
Goodwill.
I think we've all beensurprised over the last period
of time, the last few years andeven months.
Surprised over the last periodof time, the last few years and
even months the widespreadpersecution of evangelicals and
of Christians globally.
This is a bit of a shock.
What is the role of WEA as itrelates to the persecuted
Christian?
Goodwill Shana (22:21):
Well, I think, interestingly enough, as we've
been having what we callconcentric circles of
conversation around WA, one ofthe things that WA is known for
is advocacy for the persecuted,for the marginalized sisters in
sections of the world where theyare a minority or where they
cannot express their faith,where they are actually being
(22:59):
killed or persecuted out ofengagement, and so, for me, I
think that the advocacy onbehalf of the persecuted is one
of the things that the WF bringson the table.
I can give you, for instance,our own story in Zimbabwe.
There was a time when, withsome serious human rights
violations in our country and anattempt to stifle the voice of
the church, the WEA took up ourconcerns and were able to
(23:22):
express them at the UnitedNations on our behalf.
There are instances where localbelievers, local churches,
don't have the power, the voiceor the courage sometimes to
speak up on certain things, andyou need another voice.
You need, if I can say, the bigbrother voice.
So you need a place where youcan run for refuge, people that
(23:45):
can speak on your behalf oradvocate on your behalf, and the
WEA, I think, has done asterling job in doing that.
Brian Stiller (23:52):
And how does its particular relationship to the
United Nations with this Genevaoffice?
How does that as an instrument?
How does it go about affectingthe places where Christians are
persecuted?
Goodwill Shana (24:05):
Well, the fantastic thing about having an
office is that you are present,and so if you are present,
oftentimes you cannot be ignored.
And the second thing is thatwhen people are present, they
begin to develop relationships,and it's no longer just
institutions or a labeling ofinstitutions.
People are able to have coffeetogether, discuss certain issues
(24:29):
heart to heart, human to human,and oftentimes it is in these
meetings that people have acertain understanding, from a
human point of view, from anempathy point of view, of the
need to speak on behalf of themarginalized, the persecuted,
you know, or the oppressed, and,of course, the United Nations.
(24:50):
We expect it to be a placewhere justice, equality and
liberty are safeguarded, and soI think that the office is there
to take advantage of that.
Brian Stiller (25:02):
Let's go back to Africa again, this remarkable
continent with an explosion ofChristian faith like no one ever
anticipated.
And yet in the middle of yourcountry, there are wars, nation
to nation, ethnicity toethnicity.
There are issues of corruptionthat can be mind-boggling at
(25:25):
times.
So here you are, a pastor inZimbabwe, but you also are
executive chair of the globalevangelical community.
What do you see happeningwithin the church in South
Africa that speaks into theseprofound issues of social and
moral dislocation?
Goodwill Shana (25:45):
I think one of the things that we experienced
from where I come from was thisquestion of if the church is
effective and in Zimbabwe it isa fairly significant influence
why is it that we are producingcitizens that tend to go towards
corruption or tend to gotowards political domineering
(26:10):
dynamics?
And so the church wasn't justaddressing the fact of
corruption or poor governance,it began to address itself.
And so we began to look atperhaps our model of church,
perhaps our model ofdiscipleship, perhaps the things
we describe as being virtuousand valuable and that people
(26:34):
should aim for, perhaps they'rethe wrong ones.
And so there was greatintrospection that has taken
place in the churches as to whatkind of people are being
produced through the church.
Many of the politicians,especially the ones in the
earlier days, were products ofmissionary schools and Christian
(26:55):
institutions.
So the question was how comethat they passed through our
hands and they ended up that way?
So another element wasrevisiting the definition of
leadership, revisiting thedefinition of leadership, and
many times we have overlookedthe Christ-like, christocentric
leadership, servant leadership.
(27:15):
Leadership just becamesomething that was bureaucratic
but never really shaped on thevalues of the Bible.
So the church began to revisitdefinitions, its own processes,
definitions of leadership.
And then, lastly, the churchalso began to revisit its
community responsibility, saltand light.
(27:36):
How can you be in a communityor in a nation and that
community or nation is degrading, and the church is a
significant and powerful forcein that.
So it was.
How do we turn this moral valueinto transformation?
How do we get to be salt andlight in a meaningful way?
(27:59):
So those are some of the thingsthat the church in Africa is
here to grapple with and isstill grappling with.
By the way, we are not out ofthe woods yet.
Brian Stiller (28:09):
I live in Canada, so that's my context, although
it's to the very person that I'minterviewing today.
So maybe full disclosure isgood.
But Goodwill, where I live,there is an assumption that
faith is on the demise, thatchurch attendance is diminishing
(28:31):
.
But worldwide there is thisenormous uptick in church
attendance in personal faith,given the demise of church
attendance in north america andin europe.
The assumption is that faith isdropping around the world, when
(28:56):
in fact it isn't so, as asexecutive chair of world
evangelical alliance, which isthe second largest christian
body in the world.
As you look to the future, whatdo you see the church globally
achieving or doing?
Goodwill Shana (29:13):
I think, from an evangelical perspective, I see
the WA getting stronger in anumber of ways For me.
I think that, withoutself-indulgent comparison, I
think we are pretty clear aboutwho we are and what our values,
biblical values, are.
And I think, in a world wherethere's identity, fluidity and
(29:40):
the cacophony of voices that areredefining everything, the WA
will remain that one solid.
The WA will remain that onesolid, dependable reference
point on issues pertaining tothe Bible and to faith in the
Lord Jesus Christ.
I think we live in a world thatis, as the American military
(30:02):
calls it, a VUCA world volatile,uncertain, complex, ambiguous.
It is in this volatile,uncertain, complex and ambiguous
world that the WA brings a highlevel of certainty, a high
level of dependability, a highlevel of reference, and I think
(30:23):
it is this point of referencingthat many people will be running
towards when there's so muchfluidity, so much ambiguity, so
much uncertainty.
I think the WA, by virtue ofbeing based on the Word of God
and on Jesus Christ, brings thisclarity of certainty For us.
In Africa, we have seen thatwhen there's this plethora and
(30:47):
upsurge of all kinds of crazydoctrines, people get tired and
weary.
They're not clear what is thetruth.
But I think WEA has built areservoir, has built a
reputation for staying with thetruth, for being dependable, for
being a reference point inmatters biblical and matters of
(31:09):
faith and value.
I think that will still be avery, very important
contribution that we make.
The second element that I thinkwe will bring is a sense of
community, is a sense ofcohesion.
I'm in Zimbabwe, but I feel agreat kinship with you from
Canada or from anywhere else,and in a world where social
(31:31):
cohesion and community isfraying and they're fragmenting,
I think the WA brings thissense of unity and cohesion
where we can be brothers andsisters across miles or
kilometers around the globe,this sense that we belong
somewhere.
And for us, for instance, inthe Zimbabwe Evangelical
(31:54):
Fellowship of Zimbabwe, we hadgrown sufficiently significant
in our country but we felt weneeded a home.
We felt in a sense I hate touse the word tribe because where
we come from, tribe has got abad connotation but we needed to
belong somewhere.
We needed to belong to a tribe,we needed to belong to
something bigger or greater thanourselves, and we found that
(32:18):
sense of identity, that sense ofbelonging, that sense of
security in the WA, and I daresay that we're not the only ones
, and not just from a nationalpoint of view, but from
institutional point of view,from an individual point of view
.
I think WS will still bringthat to bear in the world.
Brian Stiller (32:37):
Goodwill Shana, you have a remarkable story.
You began in Zimbabwe with ayoung boy without a father.
With a young boy without afather, you become a lawyer,
pastor, denominational leaderand now head of the World
Evangelical Alliance.
That's a remarkable story.
(32:57):
So, as we conclude, today speakto someone out there who is
wondering what opportunity.
They're caught in some smallplace and wonder how could God
ever use me?
What would you say to them?
Goodwill Shana (33:12):
I would say I think God is a God of grace and
he's a God of the improbable.
He picks up people,circumstances, situations we
would never pick up for Him touse, and the Bible is full of
all those kind of stories.
(33:33):
I mean stories like David theshepherd boy that got picked up.
For me, it is this inspirationof knowing that this God can use
, or can pick and use almostanyone in the world and use
almost anyone in the world.
You don't have to be born intohigh status or into royalty, and
(33:53):
our Lord Jesus Christ was aperfect example born to a
carpenter family, born in amanger, born in a small and
unknown village.
I think that's how God does it,and my story is not just a
unique story, it's a Bible story.
It's a story of how God cantake anyone from anywhere if
(34:22):
they are willing to be used, ofGod to touch anything anywhere
in the world and wherever peoplemight be today.
I think that's the beauty ofknowing our God, beauty of
knowing our God.
Our God is a God that can touchand use and transform anyone
from anywhere to be anything inthe world, because people are of
value.
Their value is not defined bywhere they come from, or what
they weigh or which family theybelong to, but which God they
(34:47):
belong to.
And for me I would pray thatthere would be many, many other
good Roshanahs across the world.
By the grace of God not becauseof my cleverness, but by the
grace and the goodness of GodGod can elevate people to play a
significant role in his kingdom.
Brian Stiller (35:04):
Goodwill Shana.
Thank you for joining us onEvangelical 360 today.
Goodwill Shana (35:10):
Thank you, Brian , for having me.
Brian Stiller (35:13):
Thank you, pastor Goodwill Shana, for joining us
today and for helping usunderstand the powerful and
historic witness of the AfricanChurch, and thank you for being
a part of the podcast.
Be sure to share this episodeusing hashtag Evangelical360 and
join in on the conversation onYouTube.
(35:33):
If you'd like to learn moreabout today's guest, be sure to
check the show notes for linksand info, and if you haven't
already received my free e-bookand newsletter, please go to
brianstillercom.
Thanks again, until next time.
(35:54):
Don't miss the next interview.
Be sure to subscribe toEvangelical 360 on YouTube.
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