What exactly makes someone an evangelical Christian? Dr. David Bebbington, whose work has become the definitive framework for understanding this global movement, joins us to unpack the rich history and defining characteristics of evangelicalism.
Prof. Bebbington's "quadrilateral" – emphasizing the Bible, the Cross, conversion, and activism – has become the most widely cited definition of evangelical identity since its introduction in 1989. In this illuminating conversation, he traces how evangelicalism emerged in the 18th century, drawing from Puritan theology while incorporating Anglican and continental influences. Far from being static, the movement constantly evolved in response to cultural shifts from the Enlightenment through Romanticism and beyond.
We explore fascinating questions about evangelical boundaries: Are Pentecostals evangelical? What about fundamentalists? Can Roman Catholics be evangelical? Bebbington provides nuanced answers that challenge simplistic categorizations, revealing the movement's theological flexibility despite its clear core commitments.
The conversation also addresses how evangelicalism catalyzed modern missions through voluntary societies that transformed Christianity's global footprint. While acknowledging the political associations that have become attached to the evangelical label in countries like the United States and Brazil, Bebbington reminds us that these alignments are not universal – in Britain, for instance, evangelicals have historically spanned the political spectrum.
For anyone seeking clarity about evangelical identity amid today's complex religious landscape, this conversation offers rare historical perspective from the scholar whose insights have shaped our understanding of a movement that has grown from approximately 90 million believers in the 1960s to around 600 million today.
You can learn more from Dr. David Bebbington through his scholarship and publications.
And you can share this episode using hashtag #Evangelical360 and join the conversation online!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brian Stiller (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm your host, Brian Stiller,and I'm pleased to share with
you another conversation withleaders, changemakers and
influencers impacting Christianlife around the world.
We'd love for you to be a partof the podcast by sharing this
episode, use hashtagEvangelical360, and join in the
(00:34):
conversation on YouTube bysubscribing.
My guest today is DavidBebbington, a professor, author
and renowned scholar on thehistory of evangelicalism.
Bebbington's work is the mostcited source for understanding
this global Protestant movement,from its earliest influences,
(00:55):
when evangelicals were estimatedto be about 90 million
believers back in the 1960s, toits latest developments and
growth to approximately 600million.
Beyond the sheer numericalgrowth over the past few decades
, there's been significantchallenges and changes within
the evangelical movement, whichis why it's important for us to
(01:17):
take the time to hear from aninvested scholar and expert.
Join me as we listen to this,the first podcast with David
Bebbington.
David Bebbington, welcome toEvangelical 360.
David Bebbington (01:40):
Nice to see you.
Thank you for having me.
Brian Stiller (01:43):
david.
I've had in my library your1989 book.
I suppose I was one of thefirst in Canada to buy it A
remarkable introduction toevangelical history.
Imagine that when you werewriting this book, that you
would end up as, in myexperience, the most quoted
(02:07):
historian in evangelical historyof any other scholar or
researcher to the world today?
Did you realize that this wasgoing to take off the way it did
?
David Bebbington (02:18):
I had no idea.
I thought that in discussingevangelicalism, I was following
the steps of other writers and Ithought that in discussing
evangelicalism, I was followingthe steps of other writers and I
thought that what I was sayingwas what most people knew
already.
I'm still very amused when Ipick up a book and flick to the
index and find that the entriesthere have John Calvin three
(02:40):
entries, david Bebbington four.
And that's an astonishinglyfrequent happening.
It shouldn't be, but that is,you're right, what tends to
happen.
People will be very generous inciting me.
Brian Stiller (02:53):
Well, it's been an enormous gift to us all and I
think we'll note those as weproceed.
I think we'll note those as weproceed.
David, we all know Christianityin its fullest extent.
So of the two and a halfbillion Christians, about half
(03:17):
of it would be within the RomanCatholic and the Eastern
Orthodox.
And so, in the 1500s, martinLuther comes along, we have the
Reformation, john Calvin arisesand begins to write his
institutes, and then Wesleycomes along with the revival in
the beginning of the MethodistChurch, baptists come along, and
so you have Catholics andOrthodox, you have Protestants.
Now, where do evangelicals fitwithin that broader sphere of
(03:42):
Christianity, and how did itemerge?
David Bebbington (03:46):
Evangelicals emerged in the 18th century and
they definitely come from theProtestant tradition.
A very deep influence over themwas the Puritan movement, very
strong in the previous century,the 17th century.
The early evangelicals of the18th century commonly read books
(04:09):
by the leading Puritans,devoured them and very commonly
identified with theirtheological position.
However, there were otherinfluences over the origins of
evangelicalism too.
There were high churchinfluences from within the
Church of England, for example,and John Wesley, whom you've
(04:29):
mentioned, was himself a verystout Anglican, the son of an
Anglican clergyman, and wantedto remain so and wanted his
Methodist movement to remain inthe Church of England.
He did so partly because heinherited his father's very high
church doctrinal position,emphasizing the church, the
ministry and the sacraments morethan many other evangelicals
(04:53):
did.
So there's influence fromcircles other than the Puritans
that swayed the movement, andthere were even continental
influences.
The Moravian movement from thecontinent was an exemplar to
Wesley, and indeed Wesley metMoravians and was influenced by
them in his early quest forsaving faith, and it's through
(05:15):
them that he came to theexperience of committing himself
as a Christian in the firstplace.
So Puritan was the mostimportant influence.
High church influence is veryimportant too.
It was also the injection ofinfluences from the continent
Brian Stiller (05:48):
in England, or was there a division within
Protestantism from whichevangelicalism emerged, or was
it a gradual?
evolving.
David Bebbington (05:52):
It was a gradual evolution.
There were people who werecalled serious Christians or
sometimes simply Methodists,even if they weren't strong
followers of Wesley, in the 18thcentury, who are identifiably
evangelicals the actual wordonly emerged as the standard
label for the movement.
(06:13):
At the very end of the 18thcentury, magazines start to be
published with evangelical andthe title showing their
constituency, but before thatthe label was not there.
People who identified withrevival, identified with the
other emphases of theevangelical movement, had all
sorts of names, and theevolution, however, was a steady
(06:37):
one towards a greater sense ofthe unity of the movement and
the common emphases that theyprofessed.
Brian Stiller (06:52):
And what did this rising evangelical group, or
their theology?
How did it contribute to thedevelopment and the growth of
the church overall?
David Bebbington (06:56):
It actually produced, on the one hand, a lot
of fresh denominations.
Methodists that we mentionedmost obviously didn't exist at
all before Wesley gathered hisfollowers in the 18th century,
and Methodism in the 19thcentury became by far the
largest Protestant denominationin many parts of the world, most
(07:18):
notably in the United States ofAmerica, so that there was
fresh denominations that werecreated.
Some of the other Protestantdenominations that were begun in
the 17th century were hugelyincreased in numbers.
The Baptists most obviously,especially in the southern
(07:38):
United States, grew enormouslyin the 19th century.
But they are the product of thesame evangelical revival of the
18th century and often calledthe Great Awakening of the
United States.
But it's not just newdenominations.
There's a great deal ofinterdenominational activity
(07:58):
that is clearly the result ofthe revival.
Especially in the 1790s andonwards, people who had the same
experience of their heartsbeing strangely warmed by the
experience of conversion joinedtogether to spread the gospel,
so that interdenominationalgospel effort became a hallmark
(08:21):
of the movement from thenonwards.
And I want to say there'sanother feature of Christendom
that sprang from the movement isa huge emphasis on the
voluntary Christian missions,overseas missions, home missions
too.
In the 16th century, the 17thcentury, there were
(08:42):
state-sponsored missions inCatholic denominations in
Catholic countries.
But in this new evangelical agethere were voluntary societies
spreading the gospel and that isa huge contribution to the
overall Christian presence inthe world.
Brian Stiller (09:02):
So, as a historian, would you see the
rise of the evangelical movementwithin Protestantism as being
catalytic in terms of missionactivity globally?
David Bebbington (09:12):
Oh, very much so.
The figure who is most commonlymentioned is William Carey, the
great Baptist shoemaker.
A very humble figure who wasself-educated to a large extent.
Maker a very humble figure whowas self-educated to a large
extent.
He actually was the person whoproposed the creation of the
Baptist Missionary Society inEngland in 1792.
(09:32):
And his example was followed byother denominations in Britain
and by denominations in theUnited States.
So he is a central figure,although it has to be said that
he was following the example ofthe Moravians who, from the
1720s, had already been engagingin foreign missions.
It's interesting that the firstperiodical of the Baptist
(09:54):
Missionary Society chose to havethe same title as the
periodical of the Moravians.
They call them periodicalaccounts.
That's because the Baptistswere copying the Moravians in
that respect.
But certainly, yes, this is therooting of the modern
missionary movement, with itsenormous effect in beginning
(10:16):
indigenous churches in almostevery land throughout the world.
Brian Stiller (10:20):
What would you say were the major changes that
evolved in evangelicals from itsinception to today?
David Bebbington (10:29):
A lot of factors impinged on the
evangelical movement.
Politics clearly did at varioustimes.
But I want to stress in a lotof what I write how important
the cultural setting as it hasevolved has had an impact on the
evangelical movement.
Modern Western civilization inthe English-speaking world has
(10:53):
gone through a series of phases,and these phases have marked
the evangelical movement inchanging ways over the years.
Enlightenment of the 18thcentury, far from being a simple
opponent of the evangelicalmovement as it's often been
portrayed, deeply influenced theearly evangelical leaders.
(11:15):
Again, let's take John Wesleyas an example.
He stressed the importance ofreason, which is the hallmark of
the age of the Enlightenment,and he did scientific things.
It's the age of theEnlightenment and he did
scientific things.
It's often held that theEnlightenment is most important
because of the scientificinvestigation it sponsored.
Well, wesley actually inventedan electric shock machine and
(11:38):
told all his preachers to talkabout it and indeed to sell it.
Well, he believed in scientificinvestigation and discovery.
So the Enlightenment shaped theway in which evangelicals
thought.
They too stressed theimportance of reason in religion
, and that helps explain theearly impact of the evangelical
movement.
It tied in with the emphasesthat people had at the time and,
(12:01):
in their view of the future,had at the time and in their
view of the future, they sharedthe Enlightenment's typical idea
of progress.
In their particular form ofeschatology, the early
evangelicals were most alwayspost-millennialists, being the
besteaded progress of the gospeland that would bring blessings
over the whole world before thereturn of Jesus Christ, so that
(12:23):
his return would be after themillennium, post-millennialism.
However, that's the phase thatis strong in the early 19th
century and remains so, but thenis gradually superseded by
another phase, which is really acultural reaction against the
Enlightenment.
(12:45):
It's usually labeled romanticism, with a stress not on reason
but on will and emotion, onnature, and that had an enormous
impact on the evangelicalmovement.
Some people picked up itsemphases on the dramatic, for
example, and, reading thedramatic bits of the Bible more
closely, adopted a verydifferent eschatology, believing
(13:07):
that in the future Jesus wouldcome and he would come soon.
There were pre-millennialistsbelieving that Jesus' second
coming would be before themillennium, and so there was a
movement towards conservativetheology associated with
pre-millennialism in the late19th and early 20th century, the
(13:29):
evangelical world, which againcan be linked with the cultural
phase that was developing.
Conversely, some people pickedup liberal trends within the
Romantic movement and adopted amore liberal theology, believing
that there should be moreemphasis on human relations,
feelings, natural families, sothat some theology became vaguer
(13:52):
.
So those two movements areenormously important and I can
point to subsequent movementstoo that had an impact on the
evangelical mood.
It was never static.
It actually shared in thedevelopment of Western
civilization.
Brian Stiller (14:10):
David, let's come back to something that you are
so famous for and that came outof this book in 89 called
Evangelicalism in Modern Britain, and you helped the evangelical
world and those beyond to giveparameters to what evangelicals
believed and did.
(14:30):
It's famously called theBebbington quadrilateral, a
fairly much of a tongue twister,but something that is very
elementary in construct but veryimportant for evangelicals for
their self-definition and forothers outside of the
evangelical world to helpunderstand who we are.
(14:52):
So, first of all, what is thequadrilateral and where did it
come from?
And then, if you could walk usthrough these four essential,
not milestones, actuallyguardrails that help bring
definition.
David Bebbington (15:07):
That book that you point to does indeed start
by trying to say what thesubject of the book is the
evangelical movement in Britain.
So it tries to describe whatevangelicals have been like over
the whole period of theirexistence, from the early 18th
century right through to thelate 20th century.
(15:28):
And what I came up with waswhat I thought everybody knew
already, which was thatevangelicals laid particular
emphasis on four things.
Other people hold these thingsbut don't necessarily emphasize
them.
Evangelicals emphasize theBible.
(15:50):
They believe that the Bible isauthoritative.
They believe the Bible shouldthe Bible.
They believe that the Bible isauthoritative.
They believe the Bible shouldbe studied.
They believe the Bible is theword of God that should be
honoured and should betransmitted to others.
They believe in the atonementof Jesus Christ, his work upon
the cross, where he actuallyachieved salvation for humanity,
(16:11):
where he actually achievedsalvation for humanity.
And that emphasis on the crossis not the only emphasis that
people can make when they wantto talk about the importance of
Jesus.
People can talk about hisexample, people can talk about
his leadership.
Well, evangelicals didn't wantto deny that, but have always
wanted to emphasize the cross asthe time when Jesus offered
(16:33):
himself as a sacrifice to bringsinners to God.
So Bible and cross, but thenconversion.
Evangelicals, in every periodand in every place, have wanted
other people to becomeChristians and have urged upon
them the experience of beingconverted, being born again, and
(16:53):
many people have very vividlyexpressed their experience of
that process.
Indeed, not necessarily be itone particular juncture.
Some evangelicals have insistedthat it can be gradual, others
have stressed more that itshould be an immediate juncture
when it takes place.
Conversion is another of thefour elements, and the final one
(17:14):
is activism.
If people are to be converted,then there has to be a preaching
of the gospel, it has to beevangelism.
So evangelism is the cardinalelement in the activism.
It is, I think, the fourth markof evangelicals.
But normally evangelicals havenot restricted themselves to
evangelism in their activism.
(17:35):
They have believed also invarious forms of social concern
and often been very energetic.
Most obvious instance is in theabolition of the slave trade,
but in so many other waysthey've been up and doing so.
Bible, cross-conversionactivism.
They've been up and doing so.
Bible, cross-conversionactivism.
These, I think, are thehallmarks that together have
(17:56):
been what makes evangelicalismdistinctive over time.
Brian Stiller (18:01):
Why do you think the rest of the world picked up
so quickly on your definition?
What was lacking that causedpeople to so enthusiastically
embrace this as a definer?
David Bebbington (18:15):
I don't think most people had stressed the
atonement before the doctrine ofthe cross.
Some people have mentioned it,but I don't think it had been
seen as foundational.
And I think that's especiallytrue in the United States by
previous attempts tocharacterize the movement,
especially true in the UnitedStates by previous attempts to
characterize the movement.
(18:39):
And I remembered that in thechurch where I was brought up in
Nottingham the pulpit had on itone text, one text only.
We preach Christ crucified andI realized from very young that
that must be central into whatour church was about, which was
an evangelical Baptist church.
And I wanted to stress thatbecause in the sources that I
looked at on the movement in the18th, 19th, 20th centuries
(19:03):
there was a constant emphasis onthe cross, on the work of Jesus
Christ in atoning for our sins,and so I wanted to bring that
in and I think that clicked withpeople, many people who were
looking for a usefulcharacterisation of the movement
realised yes, that's what Ibelieve, let's put that down as
(19:25):
what we believe as our community.
And in America it came to beselected by the National
Association of Evangelicals assomething they put on their
website fairly early stagesaying this is the common ground
of evangelicals.
It's useful also that it'sbrief and students can remember
it for essays.
(19:45):
I think that helps too.
Brian Stiller (19:48):
In a more recent book published with Baylor, you
had this interesting line.
You said that sin is central tothe worldview of evangelicals.
David Bebbington (19:58):
Yes, One of the reasons why the cross is so
important is because the crossdeals with sin.
When I was thinking about howto characterize the movement in
the introductory chapter of thebook you've displayed, I did
wonder at one point whether sinwas so important to evangelicals
(20:19):
that it ought actually to beanother characteristic.
But I decided no, because thereason why the cross is so
important in large measure isbecause it deals with sin.
So in a sense, the engagementwith sin is subordinate to the
importance of the cross, and soI'm glad I didn't put it in,
(20:39):
because I do know that theevangelical preachers nowadays
who think that, because the wordsin is so hackneyed in many
circles that it can bemisleading, they use synonyms
such as brokenness.
They mean the same thing, butthey don't necessarily use the
word sin, so I'm glad I didn't.
However, undoubtedly, sin hasbeen really important to
(21:05):
evangelicals, and I think thatit needs to be taken account of
in any discussion of the work ofChrist on the cross.
Brian Stiller (21:15):
Well, now we're four decades later and I'm
wondering whether there areadditions, whether you would add
a fifth or a sixth to it.
For example, I suspect we wouldagree that probably the most
dynamic form or the element ofevangelicalism that is growing
globally is a result of thePentecostal charismatic movement
(21:38):
and their emphasis on theempowerment of the Spirit.
Would that be something youwould want to add, or do you
feel that the quadrilateral ispretty self-encompassing?
David Bebbington (21:49):
I have friends who would indeed wish to add
the Holy Spirit as a fifthhallmark of evangelicalism.
Clearly, the work of the Spiritis central to the evangelical
development, in the same waythat sin is, and indeed the Holy
Spirit is he who actuallycounteracts sin in bringing
(22:10):
people to God and leading topeople having the forgiveness of
their sins.
So the Spirit is central atmany points in the movement's
trajectory.
He was very commonly referredto, by George Whitefield, for
example, in the 18th century and, as you rightly say, 20th
century.
Pentecostals have emphasizedhis work and charismatics more
(22:34):
recently have done so too.
However, there have beenfundamentalists who undoubtedly
fall within the evangelical camp, who have wanted to down-stress
the work of the Spirit, attractattention from Jesus Christ
(23:05):
himself and his capacity to save, and it is the work of the
Spirit to draw attention toChrist.
So if you stress the Spirit,you're not doing what the Spirit
wants you to do.
Fundamentalists were very hot onthat in the 1920s.
I have myself been to churcheswhere popular choruses have been
changed so that the appeal tothe Holy Spirit is eliminated on
(23:26):
that ground.
The point of the Christianfaith, some fundamentalists were
told, is the work of Christ.
The Spirit must be downgraded.
I think that attitude was quitecommon in the 1960s and 1970s,
when the charismatic movementwas taking off and some more
hardline fundamentalists inparticular felt that this was at
(23:49):
risk of detracting from thedeposit of the faith in the
evangelical movement, and sothey tended to say let's not
talk about the Spirit, let'stalk only about Jesus Christ.
So I don't think you can saythat an emphasis on the Spirit
has always been there in alldimensions of the evangelical
movement.
I'd want to argue that all thefour characteristics of the
(24:12):
quadrilateral have always beenthere and remain so.
Brian Stiller (24:17):
Well, are fundamentalists evangelicals.
David Bebbington (24:20):
Yes, but they're a particular type of
evangelical.
George Marsden, the celebratedevangelical historian in the
States, has said that afundamentalist is an evangelical
who's angry about something,and I think there's a lot of
truth in that.
Fundamentalists tend to bemilitant.
But fundamentalists also haveanother characteristic they want
(24:43):
to lay such stress on the Biblethat they want to insist that
biblical criticism is a waste oftime and could indeed be worse
it could be a diabolical plot.
Now, very rarely haveevangelicals who do not want to
call themselves fundamentaliststaken that line.
(25:06):
Biblical criticism, according tomost evangelicals, has to be
appraised.
Some of it seem to be helpful,some of it seem to be a bad
thing in many ways.
But fundamentalists havenothing to do with any of it.
So fundamentalists tend to bemilitant and have that
distinctive attitude to theBible, but they are a subgroup
(25:27):
within evangelicalism ratherthan something different.
Billy Graham, for example, thatgreat evangelical preacher of
the last generation, wasdefinitely part of a
fundamentalist movement andalways so called himself and was
so called in his early days.
But gradually he merged intocalling himself an evangelical
because he didn't want todismiss the whole of biblical
(25:49):
criticism.
He didn't want to be angry withpeople either.
Brian Stiller (25:54):
David, are there groups that are evangelical by
your definition but who wouldn'twant to associate with the name
?
David Bebbington (26:03):
Yes, I think, in for much of the 20th century,
the Southern Baptist Convention, which became the largest
Protestant denomination in theUnited States and was certainly
evangelical in itself and wascertainly evangelical in itself,
(26:25):
emphasizing those four pointsof the quadrilateral and being
very effective evangelistically.
But the Southern BaptistConvention very rarely wanted to
call itself evangelical.
It was Southern Baptist.
The evangelicals were dismissed.
Indeed, one of the leadingSouthern Baptists at one point
said we don't call ourselvesevangelicals, that's a Yankee
word.
(26:45):
So they were very dismissiveindeed.
They were evangelicals but theydidn't call themselves.
So that's been true of a lot ofMethodists too.
Again, they had their owndenomination, it was big enough
to absorb their identity and yet, yes, they have been
evangelicals.
So I do think there are peoplewho fit the characterization, do
(27:08):
not call themselves so ArePentecostals evangelicals.
Yes, definitely, and one candemonstrate that by the
trajectory that leads to theemergence of the Pentecostal
movement at the start of the20th century.
If you begin with John Wesley,he was very much a preacher of
(27:28):
holiness.
His followers adopted hisbelief in entire sanctification
and holiness groups sprang fromthose Methodist bodies.
In the late 19th century, theholiness movement was the main
focus that led to the creationof Pentecostalism at the very
start of the 20th century.
(27:48):
They wanted to seek holiness inthe fresh experience after
conversion, and then they beganto think that there's another
fresh experience afterconversion, which is again the
gift of the Spirit, which is notjust sanctification but the
empowering by the Spirit or evenand this was very common the
(28:10):
baptism of the Spirit.
But that is the way in whichPentecostalism emerged, not its
soul roots.
There are other influences too,but that is the main tradition
and therefore I do think thatthe Pentecostals and their
origins were evangelical andremain so.
It's interesting that when theNational Association of
(28:30):
Evangelicals was founded inAmerica in the 1940s, some
Pentecostals joined it rightfrom the start.
They realized they wereevangelical, and although some
in some parts of the world wouldwant to emphasize that
Pentecostalism is distinctiveand is not necessarily to be
identified with evangelicalism,that's really similar to the
attitude of the SouthernBaptists in the 20th century.
(28:53):
They were so big they didn'tneed to identify with a larger
movement.
Pentecostalism is now so bigglobally, that can be so too,
but yes, the emphases are there.
They're evangelical.
Brian Stiller (29:05):
David, let's jump into current realities.
We know that in the US andplaces like Brazil and even
Zambia, that the wordevangelical has taken on a
social, political, conservativedefinition, and so I'm wondering
has the evangelical name beingso politicized as to it not
(29:30):
necessarily being definitive oruseful?
David Bebbington (29:33):
I know that quite a lot of people believe
that to be so.
That's why some people who aredefinitely evangelical in
convictions and behavior, havedropped the word.
There are congregations thatnow call themselves a community
church, which in the past wouldhave called themselves an
evangelical church, and that'sbecause they don't want to be
(29:54):
regarded as identified with aparticular political stance, a
particular political stance.
It's interesting that thatidentification with a particular
political stance is notuniversal in the world.
In Britain, for example, theworld, the evangelical world I
know best, there is no strongidentification with the right in
(30:15):
politics.
Indeed, since the 1960s, ifanything, I think, evangelicals
have tended to be tied slightlyleft of center, although there
has been an enormous range ofpolitical views.
So it's not true thatthroughout the world there's
been that shift towards aparticular type of right-wing
mobilization that has foundexpression in the United States
(30:37):
as well as the global Southcountries you've mentioned.
It needs to be insisted, Ithink, that although some
evangelicals have taken on apolitical identity which they
regard as rooted in their faiths, nevertheless evangelicalism is
a religious movement, not apolitical movement, and other
(30:57):
evangelicals would disagree withthe political inferences that
some people in our day draw fromtheir faith.
After all, over time,evangelicalism has generated
more reform movements than mostother agencies in the world, and
I think that that reformingimpulse is just as strong as the
(31:18):
right-wing populist emphasisthat you speak of in our day.
Brian Stiller (31:23):
The pollster Ryan Burge from the US has noted
that even in the Jewish andMuslim community, in various
polls a small percentage, but adefinitive percentage of those
groups would identify themselvesas evangelical.
Does this suggest the word hassimply become political?
David Bebbington (31:44):
I'm sure that its political associations would
have influenced some of thosepeople to say, yes, that I am an
evangelical.
After all, people do tend toanswer pollsters according to
what they think the pollsterswant them to say.
If they think that that's soabout the word evangelical, them
to say, If they think thatthat's so about the word
evangelical, they'll affirm it.
(32:04):
There's also the more generalpoint that a person of another
religious faith might want touse evangelical in the common or
garden way which is sometimesused.
People talk of salesmen beingevangelical, by which they mean
earnest, insistent, clamant, andI think some people may feel
that in their own faith they arewanting to be earnest and
(32:28):
committed.
A Muslim might say I'mevangelical in my faith, meaning
simply, I want to spread it.
I believe it's true.
I want to commend it in the waythat evangelical Christians do
so.
In a way, I'm not surprised,but it is something of a novelty
.
Brian Stiller (32:43):
David.
Here in Canada, George Rawlick,now deceased, who was professor
of history at Queen'sUniversity, worked on a national
poll on evangelicalism anddefining who he is and who is
not, and they learned about 15%of Roman Catholics
self-identified as evangelicals.
And they learned about 15% ofRoman Catholics self-identified
(33:04):
as evangelicals.
Is this consistent with yourunderstanding?
David Bebbington (33:11):
my conviction is that, although evangelicalism
undoubtedly sprang fromProtestantism and has remained
Protestant in its affinitiesover time, nevertheless a lot of
Catholics would be marked bythe same characteristics that
the quadrilateral points to.
In Dublin, around about 1980,there was founded an
organization called EvangelicalCatholics, an organization, so
(33:33):
people were prepared to definethemselves as, yes, continuing
Roman Catholics in their faith,but nevertheless wanting to
affirm the evangelicalpriorities.
They actually adopted theLowe's Confession, the Lowe's
Uncovenant, which was adopted byglobal evangelicals in the
1970s, as their own confessionof faith.
(33:54):
That means that in our day,some Roman Catholics feel that
the evangelical expression ofthe Christian faith is theirs,
and if so, then I'm very happy.
They should be regarded asevangelicals they want to be.
They are.
Brian Stiller (34:12):
Thank you, david, for joining us today and for
sharing with us your expertiseand insight into the history of
evangelicalism, and thank youfor being part of the podcast.
Be sure to share this episodeusing hashtag evangelical360,
and please subscribe on YouTube.
If you'd like to learn moreabout today's guest, check the
(34:36):
show notes for links and info,and if you haven't already
received my free e-book andnewsletter, please go to
brianstillercom.
Thank you, until next time.
Don't miss the next interview.
Be sure to subscribe toEvangelical 360 on YouTube.
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm your host, Brian Stiller,and I'm pleased to share with
you another conversation withleaders, changemakers and
influencers impacting Christianlife around the world.
We'd love for you to be a partof the podcast by sharing this
episode, use hashtagEvangelical360, and join in the
(00:34):
conversation on YouTube bysubscribing.
My guest today is DavidBebbington, a professor, author
and renowned scholar on thehistory of evangelicalism.
Bebbington's work is the mostcited source for understanding
this global Protestant movement,from its earliest influences,
(00:55):
when evangelicals were estimatedto be about 90 million
believers back in the 1960s, toits latest developments and
growth to approximately 600million.
Beyond the sheer numericalgrowth over the past few decades
, there's been significantchallenges and changes within
the evangelical movement, whichis why it's important for us to
(01:17):
take the time to hear from aninvested scholar and expert.
Join me as we listen to this,the first podcast with David
Bebbington.
David Bebbington, welcome toEvangelical 360.
David Bebbington (01:40):
Nice to see you.
Thank you for having me.
Brian Stiller (01:43):
david.
I've had in my library your1989 book.
I suppose I was one of thefirst in Canada to buy it A
remarkable introduction toevangelical history.
Imagine that when you werewriting this book, that you
would end up as, in myexperience, the most quoted
(02:07):
historian in evangelical historyof any other scholar or
researcher to the world today?
Did you realize that this wasgoing to take off the way it did
?
David Bebbington (02:18):
I had no idea.
I thought that in discussingevangelicalism, I was following
the steps of other writers and Ithought that in discussing
evangelicalism, I was followingthe steps of other writers and I
thought that what I was sayingwas what most people knew
already.
I'm still very amused when Ipick up a book and flick to the
index and find that the entriesthere have John Calvin three
(02:40):
entries, david Bebbington four.
And that's an astonishinglyfrequent happening.
It shouldn't be, but that is,you're right, what tends to
happen.
People will be very generous inciting me.
Brian Stiller (02:53):
Well, it's been an enormous gift to us all and I
think we'll note those as weproceed.
I think we'll note those as weproceed.
David, we all know Christianityin its fullest extent.
So of the two and a halfbillion Christians, about half
(03:17):
of it would be within the RomanCatholic and the Eastern
Orthodox.
And so, in the 1500s, martinLuther comes along, we have the
Reformation, john Calvin arisesand begins to write his
institutes, and then Wesleycomes along with the revival in
the beginning of the MethodistChurch, baptists come along, and
so you have Catholics andOrthodox, you have Protestants.
Now, where do evangelicals fitwithin that broader sphere of
(03:42):
Christianity, and how did itemerge?
David Bebbington (03:46):
Evangelicals emerged in the 18th century and
they definitely come from theProtestant tradition.
A very deep influence over themwas the Puritan movement, very
strong in the previous century,the 17th century.
The early evangelicals of the18th century commonly read books
(04:09):
by the leading Puritans,devoured them and very commonly
identified with theirtheological position.
However, there were otherinfluences over the origins of
evangelicalism too.
There were high churchinfluences from within the
Church of England, for example,and John Wesley, whom you've
(04:29):
mentioned, was himself a verystout Anglican, the son of an
Anglican clergyman, and wantedto remain so and wanted his
Methodist movement to remain inthe Church of England.
He did so partly because heinherited his father's very high
church doctrinal position,emphasizing the church, the
ministry and the sacraments morethan many other evangelicals
(04:53):
did.
So there's influence fromcircles other than the Puritans
that swayed the movement, andthere were even continental
influences.
The Moravian movement from thecontinent was an exemplar to
Wesley, and indeed Wesley metMoravians and was influenced by
them in his early quest forsaving faith, and it's through
(05:15):
them that he came to theexperience of committing himself
as a Christian in the firstplace.
So Puritan was the mostimportant influence.
High church influence is veryimportant too.
It was also the injection ofinfluences from the continent
Brian Stiller (05:48):
in England, or was there a division within
Protestantism from whichevangelicalism emerged, or was
it a gradual?
evolving.
David Bebbington (05:52):
It was a gradual evolution.
There were people who werecalled serious Christians or
sometimes simply Methodists,even if they weren't strong
followers of Wesley, in the 18thcentury, who are identifiably
evangelicals the actual wordonly emerged as the standard
label for the movement.
(06:13):
At the very end of the 18thcentury, magazines start to be
published with evangelical andthe title showing their
constituency, but before thatthe label was not there.
People who identified withrevival, identified with the
other emphases of theevangelical movement, had all
sorts of names, and theevolution, however, was a steady
(06:37):
one towards a greater sense ofthe unity of the movement and
the common emphases that theyprofessed.
Brian Stiller (06:52):
And what did this rising evangelical group, or
their theology?
How did it contribute to thedevelopment and the growth of
the church overall?
David Bebbington (06:56):
It actually produced, on the one hand, a lot
of fresh denominations.
Methodists that we mentionedmost obviously didn't exist at
all before Wesley gathered hisfollowers in the 18th century,
and Methodism in the 19thcentury became by far the
largest Protestant denominationin many parts of the world, most
(07:18):
notably in the United States ofAmerica, so that there was
fresh denominations that werecreated.
Some of the other Protestantdenominations that were begun in
the 17th century were hugelyincreased in numbers.
The Baptists most obviously,especially in the southern
(07:38):
United States, grew enormouslyin the 19th century.
But they are the product of thesame evangelical revival of the
18th century and often calledthe Great Awakening of the
United States.
But it's not just newdenominations.
There's a great deal ofinterdenominational activity
(07:58):
that is clearly the result ofthe revival.
Especially in the 1790s andonwards, people who had the same
experience of their heartsbeing strangely warmed by the
experience of conversion joinedtogether to spread the gospel,
so that interdenominationalgospel effort became a hallmark
(08:21):
of the movement from thenonwards.
And I want to say there'sanother feature of Christendom
that sprang from the movement isa huge emphasis on the
voluntary Christian missions,overseas missions, home missions
too.
In the 16th century, the 17thcentury, there were
(08:42):
state-sponsored missions inCatholic denominations in
Catholic countries.
But in this new evangelical agethere were voluntary societies
spreading the gospel and that isa huge contribution to the
overall Christian presence inthe world.
Brian Stiller (09:02):
So, as a historian, would you see the
rise of the evangelical movementwithin Protestantism as being
catalytic in terms of missionactivity globally?
David Bebbington (09:12):
Oh, very much so.
The figure who is most commonlymentioned is William Carey, the
great Baptist shoemaker.
A very humble figure who wasself-educated to a large extent.
Maker a very humble figure whowas self-educated to a large
extent.
He actually was the person whoproposed the creation of the
Baptist Missionary Society inEngland in 1792.
(09:32):
And his example was followed byother denominations in Britain
and by denominations in theUnited States.
So he is a central figure,although it has to be said that
he was following the example ofthe Moravians who, from the
1720s, had already been engagingin foreign missions.
It's interesting that the firstperiodical of the Baptist
(09:54):
Missionary Society chose to havethe same title as the
periodical of the Moravians.
They call them periodicalaccounts.
That's because the Baptistswere copying the Moravians in
that respect.
But certainly, yes, this is therooting of the modern
missionary movement, with itsenormous effect in beginning
(10:16):
indigenous churches in almostevery land throughout the world.
Brian Stiller (10:20):
What would you say were the major changes that
evolved in evangelicals from itsinception to today?
David Bebbington (10:29):
A lot of factors impinged on the
evangelical movement.
Politics clearly did at varioustimes.
But I want to stress in a lotof what I write how important
the cultural setting as it hasevolved has had an impact on the
evangelical movement.
Modern Western civilization inthe English-speaking world has
(10:53):
gone through a series of phases,and these phases have marked
the evangelical movement inchanging ways over the years.
Enlightenment of the 18thcentury, far from being a simple
opponent of the evangelicalmovement as it's often been
portrayed, deeply influenced theearly evangelical leaders.
(11:15):
Again, let's take John Wesleyas an example.
He stressed the importance ofreason, which is the hallmark of
the age of the Enlightenment,and he did scientific things.
It's the age of theEnlightenment and he did
scientific things.
It's often held that theEnlightenment is most important
because of the scientificinvestigation it sponsored.
Well, wesley actually inventedan electric shock machine and
(11:38):
told all his preachers to talkabout it and indeed to sell it.
Well, he believed in scientificinvestigation and discovery.
So the Enlightenment shaped theway in which evangelicals
thought.
They too stressed theimportance of reason in religion
, and that helps explain theearly impact of the evangelical
movement.
It tied in with the emphasesthat people had at the time and,
(12:01):
in their view of the future,had at the time and in their
view of the future, they sharedthe Enlightenment's typical idea
of progress.
In their particular form ofeschatology, the early
evangelicals were most alwayspost-millennialists, being the
besteaded progress of the gospeland that would bring blessings
over the whole world before thereturn of Jesus Christ, so that
(12:23):
his return would be after themillennium, post-millennialism.
However, that's the phase thatis strong in the early 19th
century and remains so, but thenis gradually superseded by
another phase, which is really acultural reaction against the
Enlightenment.
(12:45):
It's usually labeled romanticism, with a stress not on reason
but on will and emotion, onnature, and that had an enormous
impact on the evangelicalmovement.
Some people picked up itsemphases on the dramatic, for
example, and, reading thedramatic bits of the Bible more
closely, adopted a verydifferent eschatology, believing
(13:07):
that in the future Jesus wouldcome and he would come soon.
There were pre-millennialistsbelieving that Jesus' second
coming would be before themillennium, and so there was a
movement towards conservativetheology associated with
pre-millennialism in the late19th and early 20th century, the
(13:29):
evangelical world, which againcan be linked with the cultural
phase that was developing.
Conversely, some people pickedup liberal trends within the
Romantic movement and adopted amore liberal theology, believing
that there should be moreemphasis on human relations,
feelings, natural families, sothat some theology became vaguer
(13:52):
.
So those two movements areenormously important and I can
point to subsequent movementstoo that had an impact on the
evangelical mood.
It was never static.
It actually shared in thedevelopment of Western
civilization.
Brian Stiller (14:10):
David, let's come back to something that you are
so famous for and that came outof this book in 89 called
Evangelicalism in Modern Britain, and you helped the evangelical
world and those beyond to giveparameters to what evangelicals
believed and did.
(14:30):
It's famously called theBebbington quadrilateral, a
fairly much of a tongue twister,but something that is very
elementary in construct but veryimportant for evangelicals for
their self-definition and forothers outside of the
evangelical world to helpunderstand who we are.
(14:52):
So, first of all, what is thequadrilateral and where did it
come from?
And then, if you could walk usthrough these four essential,
not milestones, actuallyguardrails that help bring
definition.
David Bebbington (15:07):
That book that you point to does indeed start
by trying to say what thesubject of the book is the
evangelical movement in Britain.
So it tries to describe whatevangelicals have been like over
the whole period of theirexistence, from the early 18th
century right through to thelate 20th century.
(15:28):
And what I came up with waswhat I thought everybody knew
already, which was thatevangelicals laid particular
emphasis on four things.
Other people hold these thingsbut don't necessarily emphasize
them.
Evangelicals emphasize theBible.
(15:50):
They believe that the Bible isauthoritative.
They believe the Bible shouldthe Bible.
They believe that the Bible isauthoritative.
They believe the Bible shouldbe studied.
They believe the Bible is theword of God that should be
honoured and should betransmitted to others.
They believe in the atonementof Jesus Christ, his work upon
the cross, where he actuallyachieved salvation for humanity,
(16:11):
where he actually achievedsalvation for humanity.
And that emphasis on the crossis not the only emphasis that
people can make when they wantto talk about the importance of
Jesus.
People can talk about hisexample, people can talk about
his leadership.
Well, evangelicals didn't wantto deny that, but have always
wanted to emphasize the cross asthe time when Jesus offered
(16:33):
himself as a sacrifice to bringsinners to God.
So Bible and cross, but thenconversion.
Evangelicals, in every periodand in every place, have wanted
other people to becomeChristians and have urged upon
them the experience of beingconverted, being born again, and
(16:53):
many people have very vividlyexpressed their experience of
that process.
Indeed, not necessarily be itone particular juncture.
Some evangelicals have insistedthat it can be gradual, others
have stressed more that itshould be an immediate juncture
when it takes place.
Conversion is another of thefour elements, and the final one
(17:14):
is activism.
If people are to be converted,then there has to be a preaching
of the gospel, it has to beevangelism.
So evangelism is the cardinalelement in the activism.
It is, I think, the fourth markof evangelicals.
But normally evangelicals havenot restricted themselves to
evangelism in their activism.
(17:35):
They have believed also invarious forms of social concern
and often been very energetic.
Most obvious instance is in theabolition of the slave trade,
but in so many other waysthey've been up and doing so.
Bible, cross-conversionactivism.
They've been up and doing so.
Bible, cross-conversionactivism.
These, I think, are thehallmarks that together have
(17:56):
been what makes evangelicalismdistinctive over time.
Brian Stiller (18:01):
Why do you think the rest of the world picked up
so quickly on your definition?
What was lacking that causedpeople to so enthusiastically
embrace this as a definer?
David Bebbington (18:15):
I don't think most people had stressed the
atonement before the doctrine ofthe cross.
Some people have mentioned it,but I don't think it had been
seen as foundational.
And I think that's especiallytrue in the United States by
previous attempts tocharacterize the movement,
especially true in the UnitedStates by previous attempts to
characterize the movement.
(18:39):
And I remembered that in thechurch where I was brought up in
Nottingham the pulpit had on itone text, one text only.
We preach Christ crucified andI realized from very young that
that must be central into whatour church was about, which was
an evangelical Baptist church.
And I wanted to stress thatbecause in the sources that I
looked at on the movement in the18th, 19th, 20th centuries
(19:03):
there was a constant emphasis onthe cross, on the work of Jesus
Christ in atoning for our sins,and so I wanted to bring that
in and I think that clicked withpeople, many people who were
looking for a usefulcharacterisation of the movement
realised yes, that's what Ibelieve, let's put that down as
(19:25):
what we believe as our community.
And in America it came to beselected by the National
Association of Evangelicals assomething they put on their
website fairly early stagesaying this is the common ground
of evangelicals.
It's useful also that it'sbrief and students can remember
it for essays.
(19:45):
I think that helps too.
Brian Stiller (19:48):
In a more recent book published with Baylor, you
had this interesting line.
You said that sin is central tothe worldview of evangelicals.
David Bebbington (19:58):
Yes, One of the reasons why the cross is so
important is because the crossdeals with sin.
When I was thinking about howto characterize the movement in
the introductory chapter of thebook you've displayed, I did
wonder at one point whether sinwas so important to evangelicals
(20:19):
that it ought actually to beanother characteristic.
But I decided no, because thereason why the cross is so
important in large measure isbecause it deals with sin.
So in a sense, the engagementwith sin is subordinate to the
importance of the cross, and soI'm glad I didn't put it in,
(20:39):
because I do know that theevangelical preachers nowadays
who think that, because the wordsin is so hackneyed in many
circles that it can bemisleading, they use synonyms
such as brokenness.
They mean the same thing, butthey don't necessarily use the
word sin, so I'm glad I didn't.
However, undoubtedly, sin hasbeen really important to
(21:05):
evangelicals, and I think thatit needs to be taken account of
in any discussion of the work ofChrist on the cross.
Brian Stiller (21:15):
Well, now we're four decades later and I'm
wondering whether there areadditions, whether you would add
a fifth or a sixth to it.
For example, I suspect we wouldagree that probably the most
dynamic form or the element ofevangelicalism that is growing
globally is a result of thePentecostal charismatic movement
(21:38):
and their emphasis on theempowerment of the Spirit.
Would that be something youwould want to add, or do you
feel that the quadrilateral ispretty self-encompassing?
David Bebbington (21:49):
I have friends who would indeed wish to add
the Holy Spirit as a fifthhallmark of evangelicalism.
Clearly, the work of the Spiritis central to the evangelical
development, in the same waythat sin is, and indeed the Holy
Spirit is he who actuallycounteracts sin in bringing
(22:10):
people to God and leading topeople having the forgiveness of
their sins.
So the Spirit is central atmany points in the movement's
trajectory.
He was very commonly referredto, by George Whitefield, for
example, in the 18th century and, as you rightly say, 20th
century.
Pentecostals have emphasizedhis work and charismatics more
(22:34):
recently have done so too.
However, there have beenfundamentalists who undoubtedly
fall within the evangelical camp, who have wanted to down-stress
the work of the Spirit, attractattention from Jesus Christ
(23:05):
himself and his capacity to save, and it is the work of the
Spirit to draw attention toChrist.
So if you stress the Spirit,you're not doing what the Spirit
wants you to do.
Fundamentalists were very hot onthat in the 1920s.
I have myself been to churcheswhere popular choruses have been
changed so that the appeal tothe Holy Spirit is eliminated on
(23:26):
that ground.
The point of the Christianfaith, some fundamentalists were
told, is the work of Christ.
The Spirit must be downgraded.
I think that attitude was quitecommon in the 1960s and 1970s,
when the charismatic movementwas taking off and some more
hardline fundamentalists inparticular felt that this was at
(23:49):
risk of detracting from thedeposit of the faith in the
evangelical movement, and sothey tended to say let's not
talk about the Spirit, let'stalk only about Jesus Christ.
So I don't think you can saythat an emphasis on the Spirit
has always been there in alldimensions of the evangelical
movement.
I'd want to argue that all thefour characteristics of the
(24:12):
quadrilateral have always beenthere and remain so.
Brian Stiller (24:17):
Well, are fundamentalists evangelicals.
David Bebbington (24:20):
Yes, but they're a particular type of
evangelical.
George Marsden, the celebratedevangelical historian in the
States, has said that afundamentalist is an evangelical
who's angry about something,and I think there's a lot of
truth in that.
Fundamentalists tend to bemilitant.
But fundamentalists also haveanother characteristic they want
(24:43):
to lay such stress on the Biblethat they want to insist that
biblical criticism is a waste oftime and could indeed be worse
it could be a diabolical plot.
Now, very rarely haveevangelicals who do not want to
call themselves fundamentaliststaken that line.
(25:06):
Biblical criticism, according tomost evangelicals, has to be
appraised.
Some of it seem to be helpful,some of it seem to be a bad
thing in many ways.
But fundamentalists havenothing to do with any of it.
So fundamentalists tend to bemilitant and have that
distinctive attitude to theBible, but they are a subgroup
(25:27):
within evangelicalism ratherthan something different.
Billy Graham, for example, thatgreat evangelical preacher of
the last generation, wasdefinitely part of a
fundamentalist movement andalways so called himself and was
so called in his early days.
But gradually he merged intocalling himself an evangelical
because he didn't want todismiss the whole of biblical
(25:49):
criticism.
He didn't want to be angry withpeople either.
Brian Stiller (25:54):
David, are there groups that are evangelical by
your definition but who wouldn'twant to associate with the name
?
David Bebbington (26:03):
Yes, I think, in for much of the 20th century,
the Southern Baptist Convention, which became the largest
Protestant denomination in theUnited States and was certainly
evangelical in itself and wascertainly evangelical in itself,
(26:25):
emphasizing those four pointsof the quadrilateral and being
very effective evangelistically.
But the Southern BaptistConvention very rarely wanted to
call itself evangelical.
It was Southern Baptist.
The evangelicals were dismissed.
Indeed, one of the leadingSouthern Baptists at one point
said we don't call ourselvesevangelicals, that's a Yankee
word.
(26:45):
So they were very dismissiveindeed.
They were evangelicals but theydidn't call themselves.
So that's been true of a lot ofMethodists too.
Again, they had their owndenomination, it was big enough
to absorb their identity and yet, yes, they have been
evangelicals.
So I do think there are peoplewho fit the characterization, do
(27:08):
not call themselves so ArePentecostals evangelicals.
Yes, definitely, and one candemonstrate that by the
trajectory that leads to theemergence of the Pentecostal
movement at the start of the20th century.
If you begin with John Wesley,he was very much a preacher of
(27:28):
holiness.
His followers adopted hisbelief in entire sanctification
and holiness groups sprang fromthose Methodist bodies.
In the late 19th century, theholiness movement was the main
focus that led to the creationof Pentecostalism at the very
start of the 20th century.
(27:48):
They wanted to seek holiness inthe fresh experience after
conversion, and then they beganto think that there's another
fresh experience afterconversion, which is again the
gift of the Spirit, which is notjust sanctification but the
empowering by the Spirit or evenand this was very common the
(28:10):
baptism of the Spirit.
But that is the way in whichPentecostalism emerged, not its
soul roots.
There are other influences too,but that is the main tradition
and therefore I do think thatthe Pentecostals and their
origins were evangelical andremain so.
It's interesting that when theNational Association of
(28:30):
Evangelicals was founded inAmerica in the 1940s, some
Pentecostals joined it rightfrom the start.
They realized they wereevangelical, and although some
in some parts of the world wouldwant to emphasize that
Pentecostalism is distinctiveand is not necessarily to be
identified with evangelicalism,that's really similar to the
attitude of the SouthernBaptists in the 20th century.
(28:53):
They were so big they didn'tneed to identify with a larger
movement.
Pentecostalism is now so bigglobally, that can be so too,
but yes, the emphases are there.
They're evangelical.
Brian Stiller (29:05):
David, let's jump into current realities.
We know that in the US andplaces like Brazil and even
Zambia, that the wordevangelical has taken on a
social, political, conservativedefinition, and so I'm wondering
has the evangelical name beingso politicized as to it not
(29:30):
necessarily being definitive oruseful?
David Bebbington (29:33):
I know that quite a lot of people believe
that to be so.
That's why some people who aredefinitely evangelical in
convictions and behavior, havedropped the word.
There are congregations thatnow call themselves a community
church, which in the past wouldhave called themselves an
evangelical church, and that'sbecause they don't want to be
(29:54):
regarded as identified with aparticular political stance, a
particular political stance.
It's interesting that thatidentification with a particular
political stance is notuniversal in the world.
In Britain, for example, theworld, the evangelical world I
know best, there is no strongidentification with the right in
(30:15):
politics.
Indeed, since the 1960s, ifanything, I think, evangelicals
have tended to be tied slightlyleft of center, although there
has been an enormous range ofpolitical views.
So it's not true thatthroughout the world there's
been that shift towards aparticular type of right-wing
mobilization that has foundexpression in the United States
(30:37):
as well as the global Southcountries you've mentioned.
It needs to be insisted, Ithink, that although some
evangelicals have taken on apolitical identity which they
regard as rooted in their faiths, nevertheless evangelicalism is
a religious movement, not apolitical movement, and other
(30:57):
evangelicals would disagree withthe political inferences that
some people in our day draw fromtheir faith.
After all, over time,evangelicalism has generated
more reform movements than mostother agencies in the world, and
I think that that reformingimpulse is just as strong as the
(31:18):
right-wing populist emphasisthat you speak of in our day.
Brian Stiller (31:23):
The pollster Ryan Burge from the US has noted
that even in the Jewish andMuslim community, in various
polls a small percentage, but adefinitive percentage of those
groups would identify themselvesas evangelical.
Does this suggest the word hassimply become political?
David Bebbington (31:44):
I'm sure that its political associations would
have influenced some of thosepeople to say, yes, that I am an
evangelical.
After all, people do tend toanswer pollsters according to
what they think the pollsterswant them to say.
If they think that that's soabout the word evangelical, them
to say, If they think thatthat's so about the word
evangelical, they'll affirm it.
(32:04):
There's also the more generalpoint that a person of another
religious faith might want touse evangelical in the common or
garden way which is sometimesused.
People talk of salesmen beingevangelical, by which they mean
earnest, insistent, clamant, andI think some people may feel
that in their own faith they arewanting to be earnest and
(32:28):
committed.
A Muslim might say I'mevangelical in my faith, meaning
simply, I want to spread it.
I believe it's true.
I want to commend it in the waythat evangelical Christians do
so.
In a way, I'm not surprised,but it is something of a novelty
.
Brian Stiller (32:43):
David.
Here in Canada, George Rawlick,now deceased, who was professor
of history at Queen'sUniversity, worked on a national
poll on evangelicalism anddefining who he is and who is
not, and they learned about 15%of Roman Catholics
self-identified as evangelicals.
And they learned about 15% ofRoman Catholics self-identified
(33:04):
as evangelicals.
Is this consistent with yourunderstanding?
David Bebbington (33:11):
my conviction is that, although evangelicalism
undoubtedly sprang fromProtestantism and has remained
Protestant in its affinitiesover time, nevertheless a lot of
Catholics would be marked bythe same characteristics that
the quadrilateral points to.
In Dublin, around about 1980,there was founded an
organization called EvangelicalCatholics, an organization, so
(33:33):
people were prepared to definethemselves as, yes, continuing
Roman Catholics in their faith,but nevertheless wanting to
affirm the evangelicalpriorities.
They actually adopted theLowe's Confession, the Lowe's
Uncovenant, which was adopted byglobal evangelicals in the
1970s, as their own confessionof faith.
(33:54):
That means that in our day,some Roman Catholics feel that
the evangelical expression ofthe Christian faith is theirs,
and if so, then I'm very happy.
They should be regarded asevangelicals they want to be.
They are.
Brian Stiller (34:12):
Thank you, david, for joining us today and for
sharing with us your expertiseand insight into the history of
evangelicalism, and thank youfor being part of the podcast.
Be sure to share this episodeusing hashtag evangelical360,
and please subscribe on YouTube.
If you'd like to learn moreabout today's guest, check the
(34:36):
show notes for links and info,and if you haven't already
received my free e-book andnewsletter, please go to
brianstillercom.
Thank you, until next time.
Don't miss the next interview.
Be sure to subscribe toEvangelical 360 on YouTube.
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