June 13, 2025 • 31 mins
David Bebbington, the world's foremost scholar on evangelicalism, returns for a second illuminating conversation that dives deep into the global evolution and remarkable growth of the evangelical movement.
Starting with his observations on evangelicalism's consistent characteristics worldwide, Bebbington explains how the movement maintains its core identity across vastly different cultural contexts. He makes a compelling case for retaining the term "evangelical" despite political associations in America, arguing this centuries-old religious identifier serves a crucial function for believers worldwide who share common theological commitments.
The conversation explores evangelicalism's extraordinary numerical expansion from approximately 90 million adherents in 1960 to over 600 million today. Bebbington attributes this unprecedented growth primarily to evangelicalism's emphasis on personal evangelism, reinvigorated by Pentecostal and charismatic movements that have injected fresh spiritual dynamism across denominations and borders.
Yet alongside this expansion, Bebbington identifies serious challenges facing evangelicals today. External persecution threatens believers in many regions, while internally, he warns against "therapeutic evangelicalism" - a shallow, psychologically-oriented approach lacking doctrinal substance. His concerns about declining biblical literacy and the rise of Christian nationalism reveal the tensions within modern evangelicalism as it navigates contemporary cultural pressures.
Drawing from his extensive publication history and research spanning Baptist communities, Methodism, and denominational studies, Bebbington demonstrates why historical understanding remains vital for evangelical identity. His insights on colonialism's complex relationship with evangelicalism and the increasing collaboration across denominational lines provide essential context for anyone seeking to understand this global religious movement.
Whether you're a scholar of religious history, an evangelical believer seeking deeper understanding of your tradition, or simply curious about one of the world's fastest-growing religious movements, this conversation offers invaluable perspective from one of Christianity's most respected historians.
You can learn more from Dr. David Bebbington through his scholarship and publications.
And you can share this episode using hashtag #Evangelical360 and join the conversation online!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brian Stiller (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm your host, Brian Stiller,and I'm pleased to share with
you another conversation withleaders, changemakers and
influencers impacting Christianlife around the world.
We'd love for you to be a partof the podcast by sharing this
episode.
Use hashtag Evangelical360 andjoin in the conversation and on
(00:36):
YouTube, please subscribe.
My guest today is DavidBebbington.
This is the second in ourpodcast with him.
Bebbington is this is thesecond in our podcast with him.
Bebbington is a professor,author and renowned scholar on
the history of evangelicalism.
Bebbington's work is the mostcited source for understanding
this global Protestant movement,from its earliest influences,
(01:02):
when evangelicals were estimatedto be about 90 million
believers back in the 1960s, toits latest developments and
growth to approximately 600million worldwide.
Beyond the sheer numericalgrowth over the past few decades
, there have been significantchallenges and changes within
the evangelical movement, whichis why it's important for us to
take the time to hear from aninvested scholar and expert.
(01:25):
Join me as we listen to this,the second podcast with David
Bebbington.
Now, david, you've written outof your United Kingdom
experience and your location,but in your travels, in your
studies globally, does theevangelical faith manifest
(01:49):
itself differently in places,for example, outside of Europe
or North America into the globalSouth Africa, latin America and
Asia.
Is there differentmanifestations of evangelicals
or is the characteristics thatyou've identified consistently
identify those groups,regardless of where they are.
David Bebbington (02:07):
It is very remarkable that those
characteristics do seem to beglobal over space, just as they
have been consistent over timeEnormous.
Lots of other things about theevangelical movement have
changed, but there is thatremarkable degree of consistency
.
For example, a few years agothere was a conference that I
(02:32):
had a hand in organizing atBaylor University in Texas on
evangelicalism in Latin America,and lots of the contributors
said we are talking about thesame thing that exists in the
United States, and that is amarked feature of much Latin
American evangelicalism that itdoes identify with the same
movement of the United States.
Now, it's not surprising.
(02:52):
Many of the churches created inLatin America had their roots
in North America.
So they're simply beingconsistent over time and call
themselves evangelical.
So they're simply beingconsistent over time and call
themselves evangelical.
It's interesting, though, thatin Spanish, as I understand it,
in Latin America, whereevangelical is the common word
(03:13):
now for virtually allProtestants, the word Protestant
never really became animportant one.
In many Latin Americancountries, evangelical has taken
its place.
That's not surprising, becausethe vast bulk of Protestants in
Latin America are indeedevangelical Protestants.
So, yes, the movement is globalwith the same characteristics,
(03:36):
notwithstanding localdistinctives.
Brian Stiller (03:40):
Tim Keller, former pastor in New York, was
asked the question given thatthe evangelical world has been
associated, at least in the US,with a certain social political
movement, is it time to changethe name?
And his line was why should therest of the world allow 10% of
(04:00):
its church community to findwhat they call themselves of its
church community, define whatthey call themselves?
So out of that, I guess thequestion that some of my
colleagues ask is it time tochange the name?
David Bebbington (04:11):
My own conviction is that no, it is not
because that label has becometime-honored.
It has been used consistentlyover more than two centuries and
has a longer antecedent behindthat too, and I would not wish
to replace it.
If we were to replace it, theword gospel could be used in
(04:36):
many contexts.
It's not necessarily going tobe an obvious word to replace
evangelical, but the wordevangelical is derivation means
of the gospel, so it's veryclose, and indeed in a series of
volumes I've edited for BaylorUniversity Press in recent years
, in order to avoid having thesame word in the title and
(04:59):
subtitle, I've had evangelicalin the subtitle, but in the
title I've used the word gospel,and I do think that that is the
most obvious candidate.
However, my view would be thatit's undesirable to replace it,
because not everybody wouldreplace it all over the world
straight away.
What needs to be done is toinsist that it is a religious
(05:20):
movement, not a politicalmovement, and then to adopt it,
say yes, we are evangelical, andI actually think that's
important for its practicalimplications.
In some countries, evangelicalChristians of various bodies can
be regarded as cults.
That's especially true inFrance, for example.
If they can say we are not apeculiar hole in the corner,
(05:45):
tiny group that you can call acult, if they can say that no,
we're not a cult because we'repart of this broad global
evangelical movement that hasthese characteristics.
That's a very important defensethat they have.
Sometimes legislation can tryto condemn or even ban cults
(06:06):
that has been tried in Francebut because there is an
overarching body that labelsitself evangelical, that has
enabled them to ward off thethreat of anti-evangelical
legislation.
So I do think the wordevangelical has a significant
contemporary role in defendingthe interests of all those who
(06:27):
fall under its umbrella.
Brian Stiller (06:28):
David, in 1960, the estimates were there were 90
million evangelicals in theworld.
That was 1960, so 90 millionevangelicals then.
Today there's about over 600million evangelicals globally.
So we've gone from 90 millionto 600 million in just a few
(06:53):
decades, historically.
As you look at that over theselast few decades, what would be
the driving factors that wouldbring about this very remarkable
growth that I don't think anyother religious community has
seen in the history of the world?
What do you think are thedrivers for that growth?
David Bebbington (07:11):
Well, the primary driver is the priority
of evangelism.
Evangelical leaders in the 20thand early 21st centuries have
emphasized that the gospel isthere to be spread, not just to
be enjoyed.
So that conferences have beenheld with increasing global
support, and those conferenceshave transmitted the message to
(07:35):
church members.
But there is also the personaldrive when one does have the
experience of coming to faith,one wants to spread it.
So that spread is almost aspontaneous thing, encouraged by
leaders, but spontaneous fromwithin.
I think it's true to say thatbecause Pentecostalism has been
(07:56):
so powerful in the 20th andearly 21st centuries, it has
added fresh dynamic in churchesthat might otherwise have been
fading in their enthusiasm forspreading the gospel and
charismatic renewal, which Iwould see as something a bit
different in its origins fromPentecostalism.
That charismatic renewal hashad a similar impact in the late
(08:18):
20th and early 21st centuries.
There's a fresh spiritualdynamic that has moved the whole
movement forward.
When that's been said, one canpoint to other dimensions of the
movement, such as the revivalof reformed theology, the
theology associated with Calvin,which have given backbone to
(08:39):
other evangelical groups thathave helped them to spread too.
So there's this sense of thespiritual wellspring of
experience and doctrine thatstill is flowing freely and has
led to the growth you've spokenof.
Brian Stiller (08:54):
We have moved through the various periods of
colonialism, post-colonialism,globalization and now we see
emerging forms of nationalism.
In that, those larger socialeconomic moves, what do you
think are the challenges thatevangelicals as denominations,
(09:15):
as churches, as congregations,as ministry agencies, as leaders
, what do we face in the comingdecades?
David Bebbington (09:23):
I think from without persecution is a major
factor Various capable Christianorganizations, which points to
the extraordinary degree ofpersecution of Christians in
many countries.
Sub-saharan Africa hasappalling experiences nowadays
From within.
I think there are other and ina sense more sinister threats.
(09:46):
I think there are trends withinevangelicalism which point to a
thinning of its convictions.
There's a phenomenon that inAmerica has been labeled
therapeutic evangelicalism,which is that evangelicalism is
designed to meet your personalpsychological needs, which is
(10:08):
very, very shallow on doctrine,and I don't think any religion
can flourish unless it has apretty strong intellectual base.
And if you turn evangelicalismto something that just meets
your own personal needs in apsychological way, without
(10:28):
doctrinal content, it's likelyto last over many generations.
People have real experiencesthrough popular preachers of
that style, but I don't thinkover the long term it's a very
successful phenomenon.
There is a very strong risk toothat Bible knowledge will become
very thin.
Up to the mid-20th centuryeverybody in the
(10:49):
English-speaking world knew whatthe Bible was.
It was the King James Versionand they learned to quote it and
they internalized it.
And it was a common part of theChristian and especially the
evangelical evangelicalexperience to know the Bible's
phrases.
The multiplication of versionsof the Bible in the late 20th
(11:13):
and early 21st centuries,although it's been good in
helping us to understand whatthe Bible really means, has led
to a weakening of an actualcapacity to memorize, to
internalize bits of the Bible,and that, I think, means that
the biblical foundations whichare so important to the movement
(11:35):
risk being undermined unlesspreachers take pains to
encourage Bible knowledge intheir congregations.
So I think there are externalthreats.
There are internal threats, asin every generation there are.
Brian Stiller (11:49):
Currently in North America there is a
movement that has centereditself around the notion of
Christian nationalism ordominion theology.
Interestingly enough, thatmovement came out of my own life
experience as the son of abishop of Pentecostals in
Saskatchewan.
(12:09):
The movement was called LatterRain in 1947-48, which focused
on the, the five-fold gifts andthe, the appointment of people
as having those gifts and theuse of those gifts in a kind of
a top-down authoritarianmanagement of church groups.
This moved its way eventuallyinto the states, was accepted by
(12:33):
peter w Wagner under what'scalled the New Apostolic
Reformation, found its way intoChristian nationalism in various
ways, as its moves about today,has branded itself around a
political religious philosophyof America, god's call to be his
messenger in the world, and itcenters around, of course, the
(12:56):
president and this notion thatthe seven mountains in the
culture are to be taken over byevangelicals, by believers, and
thus rule the nation.
That's a bit of a mouthful, but, as a historian, as you look at
that, how does that operate?
(13:16):
Or does its over
David Bebbington (13:18):
the whole trajectory
of itsexistence has been to reform
(13:38):
things that are wrong.
Now that doesn't normally leadto a sense of the capacity of
the evangelical movement to beassertive in the way that the
dominion movement you describeddoes.
It can lead in that way.
One thinks in the 17th centuryof the predecessors of the
(14:00):
evangelical movement in thefifth monarchy movement, of
thinking the return of Jesus wasimminent, king Jesus, his
kingdom, what was about toappear.
As his followers, it was theirduty to ensure it came
immediately.
And they caused a considerableproblem around about 1660,
because they didn't approve ofCharles II as an alternative to
(14:22):
King Jesus.
So there have been precedents,but they tend to pass In our day
.
I confess that that movement istroubling because it is not just
a movement that's come toexpression in the United States
but has been exported to otherparts of the world.
Most obviously, I think, latinAmerica, where it has affected
(14:44):
the politics of Brazil andaffected the politics of Bolivia
in quite strong ways, becameevident from a book that I
edited on evangelicalism inLatin America.
And I think what is importantis that in those countries there
are other evangelicals who donot share that dominionist point
of view, who say we areevangelicals too.
(15:06):
Read your Bibles and seewhether there are other cautions
in the Bible about that pointof view.
I'd love to think that theybecame more eloquent over time
and I think they might.
Brian Stiller (15:18):
The great gift that you have been to us as a
historian.
Did that come naturally to you,and what would you say to the
rest of us, or to young scholarswho are looking for areas in
which they could devotethemselves to serve the global
witness of the church?
David Bebbington (15:37):
I do believe that being a historian can be a
Christian vocation.
In North America there is anorganization which actually
encourages younger scholars tobe Christian historians.
There's a sister organizationin Britain, which is roughly
(16:01):
100th the size, which does thesame, and I think that they are
extremely important.
Why?
Because if one understands thepast one can understand the
present.
And only if one understands thepast one can understand the
present.
And only if one understands thepast can one understand the
present, not wholly, but in muchgreater measure.
(16:24):
Themselves enjoying doinghistory as an academic
discipline in their universitieswould see evangelical history
as an enormously rich potentialfield to explore.
The 18th and the 20th centuriesare pretty well populated by
(16:48):
historians at the moment.
The 19th century, when theevangelical movement in North
America and the British Isleswas at its strongest, remained
relatively uncultivated, andthere are enormously important
topics to be studied on bothsides of the Atlantic.
(17:08):
There are therefore academiccareers to be carved out.
There are therefore academiccareers to be carved out.
I do think it's important thatpeople who do study the
evangelical past should be partof the broader historical
community, seeing theevangelical movement, yes, as
part of the Christian church'shistory, but see it also as part
of the social, cultural andpolitical history of the lands
(17:31):
where the movement has spread.
Only so could it be understoodin its totality.
I'd love to think that moremembers of ordinary university
history departments would paymore attention to the work of
the evangelical movement in thepast in their studies.
I think it may happen.
Brian Stiller (17:49):
You have written a number of publications.
Can you take us through yourpublications and how those
publications have been marks onyour journey of understanding
and of research?
David Bebbington (18:01):
Yes, with pleasure.
I began being interested inhistory when I was a small boy.
I had a very excellent primaryschool teacher who saw that I
was interested in history andsaid why didn't I do a project
on the history of the ancientworld?
So I did, and I produced fourvolumes and 120 pages altogether
(18:23):
with footnotes on the historyof the ancient world, with which
is incorporated classicalmythology.
That was the title At the time.
My age was nine.
Therefore I was typecast from avery early age.
When I was in the final year atschool, I went to the secretary
(18:46):
of the local antiquarian societyfor the county and asked what
topic should I study for funbefore I went up to university?
And I suggested one topic mightbe the history of my own
Baptist church.
He said yes, do that.
That's not enormously wellcovered ground.
So I went around asking allolder members about the history
of the church, went through theminutes and produced a little
(19:08):
history of the church.
That was an evangelical churchin Nottingham and I realised
that I needed to know more aboutthe political engagement that
members of this church wouldhave had in the late 19th
century.
So I thought well, when I'vebeen to university and done an
undergraduate degree.
Why don't I try to write a PhDon nonconformist evangelical
(19:30):
churches and politics in thelate 19th century?
It turned out that it waspossible to do that.
I was very kindly supported bya state grant to pursue my hobby
.
So I wrote a book called theNonconformist Conscience on the
basis of my PhD.
So the Nonconformist Conscienceis about churches in Britain
(19:51):
that were evangelical and theirpolitical engagement under the
leadership of the liberalstatesman William E Gladstone.
My subsequent work took twodirections One to cover the
evangelical movementincreasingly becoming global.
The other was to study theLiberal Party that Gladstone led
(20:13):
and especially Gladstonehimself.
So on the Gladstone side Iproduced three books and that's
obviously pretty mainstreamhistory in the United Kingdom, a
statesman with global reach, sovery important, but
nevertheless somebody who was avery significantly British
figure.
He never actually traveledacross the Atlantic, for example
(20:35):
.
But also I pursued theevangelical movement in many
dimensions, the book that you'vespoken of and waved to us.
Thank you very much.
That is the foundation of mywork on the evangelical movement
.
Some of the articles haverecently been gathered together
(20:57):
in this volume, a two-volumecollection of my articles called
Evangelical Quadrilateral.
What other title could bechosen?
Those articles published overthe years, gathered together 16
in each of the two volumesBailey University Press.
But I'm a Baptist and so I'venaturally taken an interest in
(21:19):
Baptist history too, within theevangelical movement, and I've
written in several books onBaptists one on Baptists
throughout the world, a globalhistory that came out in 2010,.
The second edition of 2018,again from Baylor University
Press.
(21:39):
So I've tried to pursue Baptisthistory, as it were, as a case
study within the evangelicalmovement, and at present, when I
get around to doing it, I'mtrying to work on Methodism in a
similar way.
I'm looking at Methodism in theVictorian period in Britain
through two lenses the lens ofan enormously strong city centre
(22:03):
church in Leeds calledBrunswick Methodist Chapel,
which was enormously influentialin the north of England, and
also Methodism in the ShetlandIslands off the north coast of
Scotland, where there was no bigchurch at all lots of scattered
little churches, roughly thesame number of Methodists trying
to look how different they werein different situations.
(22:25):
So seeing the interplay oflocal culture on these various
bodies.
My most recent book, which hasnot yet appeared but has been
submitted to the publisher againBailey University Press, is
entitled Denominations.
It's entitled Denominations andit is a book that attempts to
(22:45):
provide a history of all thecurrent denominations in Great
Britain and North America.
Now, this ridiculouslyoverambitious project I blame
entirely on my wife.
She says that friends of hersask her why are there so many
different churches, and shemistakenly thought I might know
(23:07):
the answer and I should write abook.
I didn't, so of course I had todo a lot of reading, but it did
me a lot of good and I producedthat book, which should appear
in a couple of years time fromBaby University Press.
So that's the sort oftrajectory of my publications.
I've been very privileged to beable to pursue my hobby and get
paid for it.
Brian Stiller (23:27):
David, I find it curious that you would come to
this assessment of a definitionof evangelicals and what is
called your quadrilateral, butyou did it in a place that is
known for its colonialism.
But you did it in a place thatis known for its colonialism,
(23:47):
the British Commonwealth ofNations, of which we in Canada
were part and continue to be apart.
But how might that analysisthat you make in the UK, at the
heart of this colonialenterprise, how could that be
(24:22):
also a suitable and an accuratedefinition for those?
who are part of the colonialenterprise in Africa or Latin
America or Asia, wherever, orcountries that had nothing to do
with your British colonialenterprise.
David Bebbington (24:26):
One of the more fascinating aspects of work
I've done in more recent yearshas been to see how that the
attitudes and activities of theevangelical movement in Britain
has spread to other parts of theworld.
Now it is partly through thecolonists themselves, people who
went out as emigrants fromBritain, immigrants to places
(24:50):
like Canada, australia, newZealand, south Africa, and, in
smaller numbers, to other partsof the world, apart, of course,
from the United States, whichalways took the largest number
of immigrants but was not partof our empire after the 1780s.
I have found it fascinating tolook at the way in which the
(25:12):
attitudes and activities of theevangelical groups that went out
in that way were very, verysimilar, to a large extent
identical to contemporaryattitudes in Britain, and I'm
illustrating that in the nearfuture Next month, all being
well I'm coming to AcadiaDivinity School in Nova Scotia
(25:35):
giving a lecture at a Baptisthistory conference on
conservatism, liberalism andCanadian Baptists.
Now that's about theconservative theological trends,
the liberal theological trendsand how they've impacted on
Canada in that one denominationthe Baptists over time but it's
(25:56):
informed by the sort ofexperience I've had of exploring
the sources on the British side.
In the following month, in May,I'm going to do a paper at the
Anglican Theological College inMelbourne, lidley College.
I'm going to do a paper that Iactually finished writing
yesterday, intriguingly on theMelbourne General Cemetery and
(26:22):
how that can be seen as a key tounderstanding the
denominational patternprevailing amongst colonists in
the mid-19th century, and I'vevery much enjoyed it.
It's been fresh.
I depend on my personal library, of course, for doing this, but
that's there, I'm glad to say,and it's been possible.
I've found that the britishcolonial experience has informed
(26:47):
my understanding of the churchhistory of much of the
english-speaking world of thecommonwealth.
There's a downside as well, ofcourse.
The aborigines weren't treatedvery nicely in melbourne, for
instance.
That is to say, the indigenousAustralians were neglected and
(27:08):
sometimes treated with contempt.
The efforts to spread thegospel to them were not as
powerful as they ought to havebeen, partly because of the
difficulty of translation of theBible into a multiplicity of
languages.
So there is that downside.
But in relation to the historyof the british empire one must
never forget the enormouscontribution and enduring legacy
(27:30):
of that great evangelicalleader, william wilberforce and
his campaign, the ending ofslavery, greatest plot on the
scutcheon of british history inthe period in the 19th century.
And there was that successfulattempt to do away with the
slave trade and subsequently thecampaign against slavery too.
These things must not beforgotten in our day.
Brian Stiller (27:53):
As you've looked at denominations, do you see
much collaboration and if you do, what values do you see out of
the collaboration the breakingdown of denominational barriers
so that groups can work together?
Is there much evidence for that?
David Bebbington (28:11):
Definitely, I think since the 1960s there has
been a marked weakening ofdenominational allegiance in
many of the Western countries.
That is partly becausecharismatic renewal created
bonds between congregations thathad experienced renewal.
(28:34):
They had more in common withother congregations in other
denominations that werecharismatic, with congregations
in their own denomination thatwere not, with congregations of
their own denomination that werenot.
Also, in a period when in theWest religion has not been as
flourishing as it was before the1960s the exception of parts of
the United States that there'salmost been a necessity for
(28:58):
collaboration.
Christians have been throwntogether for common effort.
In the third world, the commonenterprise of spreading the
gospel has sometimes led togreater denominational identity.
But even there, sometimescollaboration has been very
marked.
It can be a good thing.
It can, however, lead to a lossof a blessing showered on
(29:22):
particular Christian groups inthe past.
To have forgotten, for example,the legacy of William
Wilberforce would be an enormousloss.
To have forgotten the legacy ofWilliam Carey, the great
missionary, founder, would be anenormous loss.
And sometimes I think that amixing together of groups in our
(29:51):
day has led to the loss of thehistorical memories which could
entrench and empower the churchin our day.
But there are remedies for that, and the chief remedy is
reading more history books.
Brian Stiller (30:03):
Thank you, david, for joining us today and for
sharing with us your expertiseand insight into the history of
evangelicalism, and thank youfor being a part of the podcast.
Be sure to share this episodeusing hashtag evangelical360,
and please subscribe on YouTube.
If you'd like to learn moreabout today's guest, check the
(30:25):
show notes for links and info,and if you haven't already
received my free book andnewsletter, please go to
brianstillercom.
And please note that this isthe second podcast that we have
done with David Bevington.
You may want to go back andlisten to the first podcast as
well.
Thank you, until next time,don't miss the next interview,
(30:52):
be sure to subscribe toEvangelical 360 on YouTube.
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm your host, Brian Stiller,and I'm pleased to share with
you another conversation withleaders, changemakers and
influencers impacting Christianlife around the world.
We'd love for you to be a partof the podcast by sharing this
episode.
Use hashtag Evangelical360 andjoin in the conversation and on
(00:36):
YouTube, please subscribe.
My guest today is DavidBebbington.
This is the second in ourpodcast with him.
Bebbington is this is thesecond in our podcast with him.
Bebbington is a professor,author and renowned scholar on
the history of evangelicalism.
Bebbington's work is the mostcited source for understanding
this global Protestant movement,from its earliest influences,
(01:02):
when evangelicals were estimatedto be about 90 million
believers back in the 1960s, toits latest developments and
growth to approximately 600million worldwide.
Beyond the sheer numericalgrowth over the past few decades
, there have been significantchallenges and changes within
the evangelical movement, whichis why it's important for us to
take the time to hear from aninvested scholar and expert.
(01:25):
Join me as we listen to this,the second podcast with David
Bebbington.
Now, david, you've written outof your United Kingdom
experience and your location,but in your travels, in your
studies globally, does theevangelical faith manifest
(01:49):
itself differently in places,for example, outside of Europe
or North America into the globalSouth Africa, latin America and
Asia.
Is there differentmanifestations of evangelicals
or is the characteristics thatyou've identified consistently
identify those groups,regardless of where they are.
David Bebbington (02:07):
It is very remarkable that those
characteristics do seem to beglobal over space, just as they
have been consistent over timeEnormous.
Lots of other things about theevangelical movement have
changed, but there is thatremarkable degree of consistency
.
For example, a few years agothere was a conference that I
(02:32):
had a hand in organizing atBaylor University in Texas on
evangelicalism in Latin America,and lots of the contributors
said we are talking about thesame thing that exists in the
United States, and that is amarked feature of much Latin
American evangelicalism that itdoes identify with the same
movement of the United States.
Now, it's not surprising.
(02:52):
Many of the churches created inLatin America had their roots
in North America.
So they're simply beingconsistent over time and call
themselves evangelical.
So they're simply beingconsistent over time and call
themselves evangelical.
It's interesting, though, thatin Spanish, as I understand it,
in Latin America, whereevangelical is the common word
(03:13):
now for virtually allProtestants, the word Protestant
never really became animportant one.
In many Latin Americancountries, evangelical has taken
its place.
That's not surprising, becausethe vast bulk of Protestants in
Latin America are indeedevangelical Protestants.
So, yes, the movement is globalwith the same characteristics,
(03:36):
notwithstanding localdistinctives.
Brian Stiller (03:40):
Tim Keller, former pastor in New York, was
asked the question given thatthe evangelical world has been
associated, at least in the US,with a certain social political
movement, is it time to changethe name?
And his line was why should therest of the world allow 10% of
(04:00):
its church community to findwhat they call themselves of its
church community, define whatthey call themselves?
So out of that, I guess thequestion that some of my
colleagues ask is it time tochange the name?
David Bebbington (04:11):
My own conviction is that no, it is not
because that label has becometime-honored.
It has been used consistentlyover more than two centuries and
has a longer antecedent behindthat too, and I would not wish
to replace it.
If we were to replace it, theword gospel could be used in
(04:36):
many contexts.
It's not necessarily going tobe an obvious word to replace
evangelical, but the wordevangelical is derivation means
of the gospel, so it's veryclose, and indeed in a series of
volumes I've edited for BaylorUniversity Press in recent years
, in order to avoid having thesame word in the title and
(04:59):
subtitle, I've had evangelicalin the subtitle, but in the
title I've used the word gospel,and I do think that that is the
most obvious candidate.
However, my view would be thatit's undesirable to replace it,
because not everybody wouldreplace it all over the world
straight away.
What needs to be done is toinsist that it is a religious
(05:20):
movement, not a politicalmovement, and then to adopt it,
say yes, we are evangelical, andI actually think that's
important for its practicalimplications.
In some countries, evangelicalChristians of various bodies can
be regarded as cults.
That's especially true inFrance, for example.
If they can say we are not apeculiar hole in the corner,
(05:45):
tiny group that you can call acult, if they can say that no,
we're not a cult because we'repart of this broad global
evangelical movement that hasthese characteristics.
That's a very important defensethat they have.
Sometimes legislation can tryto condemn or even ban cults
(06:06):
that has been tried in Francebut because there is an
overarching body that labelsitself evangelical, that has
enabled them to ward off thethreat of anti-evangelical
legislation.
So I do think the wordevangelical has a significant
contemporary role in defendingthe interests of all those who
(06:27):
fall under its umbrella.
Brian Stiller (06:28):
David, in 1960, the estimates were there were 90
million evangelicals in theworld.
That was 1960, so 90 millionevangelicals then.
Today there's about over 600million evangelicals globally.
So we've gone from 90 millionto 600 million in just a few
(06:53):
decades, historically.
As you look at that over theselast few decades, what would be
the driving factors that wouldbring about this very remarkable
growth that I don't think anyother religious community has
seen in the history of the world?
What do you think are thedrivers for that growth?
David Bebbington (07:11):
Well, the primary driver is the priority
of evangelism.
Evangelical leaders in the 20thand early 21st centuries have
emphasized that the gospel isthere to be spread, not just to
be enjoyed.
So that conferences have beenheld with increasing global
support, and those conferenceshave transmitted the message to
(07:35):
church members.
But there is also the personaldrive when one does have the
experience of coming to faith,one wants to spread it.
So that spread is almost aspontaneous thing, encouraged by
leaders, but spontaneous fromwithin.
I think it's true to say thatbecause Pentecostalism has been
(07:56):
so powerful in the 20th andearly 21st centuries, it has
added fresh dynamic in churchesthat might otherwise have been
fading in their enthusiasm forspreading the gospel and
charismatic renewal, which Iwould see as something a bit
different in its origins fromPentecostalism.
That charismatic renewal hashad a similar impact in the late
(08:18):
20th and early 21st centuries.
There's a fresh spiritualdynamic that has moved the whole
movement forward.
When that's been said, one canpoint to other dimensions of the
movement, such as the revivalof reformed theology, the
theology associated with Calvin,which have given backbone to
(08:39):
other evangelical groups thathave helped them to spread too.
So there's this sense of thespiritual wellspring of
experience and doctrine thatstill is flowing freely and has
led to the growth you've spokenof.
Brian Stiller (08:54):
We have moved through the various periods of
colonialism, post-colonialism,globalization and now we see
emerging forms of nationalism.
In that, those larger socialeconomic moves, what do you
think are the challenges thatevangelicals as denominations,
(09:15):
as churches, as congregations,as ministry agencies, as leaders
, what do we face in the comingdecades?
David Bebbington (09:23):
I think from without persecution is a major
factor Various capable Christianorganizations, which points to
the extraordinary degree ofpersecution of Christians in
many countries.
Sub-saharan Africa hasappalling experiences nowadays
From within.
I think there are other and ina sense more sinister threats.
(09:46):
I think there are trends withinevangelicalism which point to a
thinning of its convictions.
There's a phenomenon that inAmerica has been labeled
therapeutic evangelicalism,which is that evangelicalism is
designed to meet your personalpsychological needs, which is
(10:08):
very, very shallow on doctrine,and I don't think any religion
can flourish unless it has apretty strong intellectual base.
And if you turn evangelicalismto something that just meets
your own personal needs in apsychological way, without
(10:28):
doctrinal content, it's likelyto last over many generations.
People have real experiencesthrough popular preachers of
that style, but I don't thinkover the long term it's a very
successful phenomenon.
There is a very strong risk toothat Bible knowledge will become
very thin.
Up to the mid-20th centuryeverybody in the
(10:49):
English-speaking world knew whatthe Bible was.
It was the King James Versionand they learned to quote it and
they internalized it.
And it was a common part of theChristian and especially the
evangelical evangelicalexperience to know the Bible's
phrases.
The multiplication of versionsof the Bible in the late 20th
(11:13):
and early 21st centuries,although it's been good in
helping us to understand whatthe Bible really means, has led
to a weakening of an actualcapacity to memorize, to
internalize bits of the Bible,and that, I think, means that
the biblical foundations whichare so important to the movement
(11:35):
risk being undermined unlesspreachers take pains to
encourage Bible knowledge intheir congregations.
So I think there are externalthreats.
There are internal threats, asin every generation there are.
Brian Stiller (11:49):
Currently in North America there is a
movement that has centereditself around the notion of
Christian nationalism ordominion theology.
Interestingly enough, thatmovement came out of my own life
experience as the son of abishop of Pentecostals in
Saskatchewan.
(12:09):
The movement was called LatterRain in 1947-48, which focused
on the, the five-fold gifts andthe, the appointment of people
as having those gifts and theuse of those gifts in a kind of
a top-down authoritarianmanagement of church groups.
This moved its way eventuallyinto the states, was accepted by
(12:33):
peter w Wagner under what'scalled the New Apostolic
Reformation, found its way intoChristian nationalism in various
ways, as its moves about today,has branded itself around a
political religious philosophyof America, god's call to be his
messenger in the world, and itcenters around, of course, the
(12:56):
president and this notion thatthe seven mountains in the
culture are to be taken over byevangelicals, by believers, and
thus rule the nation.
That's a bit of a mouthful, but, as a historian, as you look at
that, how does that operate?
(13:16):
Or does its over
David Bebbington (13:18):
the whole trajectory
of itsexistence has been to reform
(13:38):
things that are wrong.
Now that doesn't normally leadto a sense of the capacity of
the evangelical movement to beassertive in the way that the
dominion movement you describeddoes.
It can lead in that way.
One thinks in the 17th centuryof the predecessors of the
(14:00):
evangelical movement in thefifth monarchy movement, of
thinking the return of Jesus wasimminent, king Jesus, his
kingdom, what was about toappear.
As his followers, it was theirduty to ensure it came
immediately.
And they caused a considerableproblem around about 1660,
because they didn't approve ofCharles II as an alternative to
(14:22):
King Jesus.
So there have been precedents,but they tend to pass In our day
.
I confess that that movement istroubling because it is not just
a movement that's come toexpression in the United States
but has been exported to otherparts of the world.
Most obviously, I think, latinAmerica, where it has affected
(14:44):
the politics of Brazil andaffected the politics of Bolivia
in quite strong ways, becameevident from a book that I
edited on evangelicalism inLatin America.
And I think what is importantis that in those countries there
are other evangelicals who donot share that dominionist point
of view, who say we areevangelicals too.
(15:06):
Read your Bibles and seewhether there are other cautions
in the Bible about that pointof view.
I'd love to think that theybecame more eloquent over time
and I think they might.
Brian Stiller (15:18):
The great gift that you have been to us as a
historian.
Did that come naturally to you,and what would you say to the
rest of us, or to young scholarswho are looking for areas in
which they could devotethemselves to serve the global
witness of the church?
David Bebbington (15:37):
I do believe that being a historian can be a
Christian vocation.
In North America there is anorganization which actually
encourages younger scholars tobe Christian historians.
There's a sister organizationin Britain, which is roughly
(16:01):
100th the size, which does thesame, and I think that they are
extremely important.
Why?
Because if one understands thepast one can understand the
present.
And only if one understands thepast one can understand the
present.
And only if one understands thepast can one understand the
present, not wholly, but in muchgreater measure.
(16:24):
Themselves enjoying doinghistory as an academic
discipline in their universitieswould see evangelical history
as an enormously rich potentialfield to explore.
The 18th and the 20th centuriesare pretty well populated by
(16:48):
historians at the moment.
The 19th century, when theevangelical movement in North
America and the British Isleswas at its strongest, remained
relatively uncultivated, andthere are enormously important
topics to be studied on bothsides of the Atlantic.
(17:08):
There are therefore academiccareers to be carved out.
There are therefore academiccareers to be carved out.
I do think it's important thatpeople who do study the
evangelical past should be partof the broader historical
community, seeing theevangelical movement, yes, as
part of the Christian church'shistory, but see it also as part
of the social, cultural andpolitical history of the lands
(17:31):
where the movement has spread.
Only so could it be understoodin its totality.
I'd love to think that moremembers of ordinary university
history departments would paymore attention to the work of
the evangelical movement in thepast in their studies.
I think it may happen.
Brian Stiller (17:49):
You have written a number of publications.
Can you take us through yourpublications and how those
publications have been marks onyour journey of understanding
and of research?
David Bebbington (18:01):
Yes, with pleasure.
I began being interested inhistory when I was a small boy.
I had a very excellent primaryschool teacher who saw that I
was interested in history andsaid why didn't I do a project
on the history of the ancientworld?
So I did, and I produced fourvolumes and 120 pages altogether
(18:23):
with footnotes on the historyof the ancient world, with which
is incorporated classicalmythology.
That was the title At the time.
My age was nine.
Therefore I was typecast from avery early age.
When I was in the final year atschool, I went to the secretary
(18:46):
of the local antiquarian societyfor the county and asked what
topic should I study for funbefore I went up to university?
And I suggested one topic mightbe the history of my own
Baptist church.
He said yes, do that.
That's not enormously wellcovered ground.
So I went around asking allolder members about the history
of the church, went through theminutes and produced a little
(19:08):
history of the church.
That was an evangelical churchin Nottingham and I realised
that I needed to know more aboutthe political engagement that
members of this church wouldhave had in the late 19th
century.
So I thought well, when I'vebeen to university and done an
undergraduate degree.
Why don't I try to write a PhDon nonconformist evangelical
(19:30):
churches and politics in thelate 19th century?
It turned out that it waspossible to do that.
I was very kindly supported bya state grant to pursue my hobby
.
So I wrote a book called theNonconformist Conscience on the
basis of my PhD.
So the Nonconformist Conscienceis about churches in Britain
(19:51):
that were evangelical and theirpolitical engagement under the
leadership of the liberalstatesman William E Gladstone.
My subsequent work took twodirections One to cover the
evangelical movementincreasingly becoming global.
The other was to study theLiberal Party that Gladstone led
(20:13):
and especially Gladstonehimself.
So on the Gladstone side Iproduced three books and that's
obviously pretty mainstreamhistory in the United Kingdom, a
statesman with global reach, sovery important, but
nevertheless somebody who was avery significantly British
figure.
He never actually traveledacross the Atlantic, for example
(20:35):
.
But also I pursued theevangelical movement in many
dimensions, the book that you'vespoken of and waved to us.
Thank you very much.
That is the foundation of mywork on the evangelical movement
.
Some of the articles haverecently been gathered together
(20:57):
in this volume, a two-volumecollection of my articles called
Evangelical Quadrilateral.
What other title could bechosen?
Those articles published overthe years, gathered together 16
in each of the two volumesBailey University Press.
But I'm a Baptist and so I'venaturally taken an interest in
(21:19):
Baptist history too, within theevangelical movement, and I've
written in several books onBaptists one on Baptists
throughout the world, a globalhistory that came out in 2010,.
The second edition of 2018,again from Baylor University
Press.
(21:39):
So I've tried to pursue Baptisthistory, as it were, as a case
study within the evangelicalmovement, and at present, when I
get around to doing it, I'mtrying to work on Methodism in a
similar way.
I'm looking at Methodism in theVictorian period in Britain
through two lenses the lens ofan enormously strong city centre
(22:03):
church in Leeds calledBrunswick Methodist Chapel,
which was enormously influentialin the north of England, and
also Methodism in the ShetlandIslands off the north coast of
Scotland, where there was no bigchurch at all lots of scattered
little churches, roughly thesame number of Methodists trying
to look how different they werein different situations.
(22:25):
So seeing the interplay oflocal culture on these various
bodies.
My most recent book, which hasnot yet appeared but has been
submitted to the publisher againBailey University Press, is
entitled Denominations.
It's entitled Denominations andit is a book that attempts to
(22:45):
provide a history of all thecurrent denominations in Great
Britain and North America.
Now, this ridiculouslyoverambitious project I blame
entirely on my wife.
She says that friends of hersask her why are there so many
different churches, and shemistakenly thought I might know
(23:07):
the answer and I should write abook.
I didn't, so of course I had todo a lot of reading, but it did
me a lot of good and I producedthat book, which should appear
in a couple of years time fromBaby University Press.
So that's the sort oftrajectory of my publications.
I've been very privileged to beable to pursue my hobby and get
paid for it.
Brian Stiller (23:27):
David, I find it curious that you would come to
this assessment of a definitionof evangelicals and what is
called your quadrilateral, butyou did it in a place that is
known for its colonialism.
But you did it in a place thatis known for its colonialism,
(23:47):
the British Commonwealth ofNations, of which we in Canada
were part and continue to be apart.
But how might that analysisthat you make in the UK, at the
heart of this colonialenterprise, how could that be
(24:22):
also a suitable and an accuratedefinition for those?
who are part of the colonialenterprise in Africa or Latin
America or Asia, wherever, orcountries that had nothing to do
with your British colonialenterprise.
David Bebbington (24:26):
One of the more fascinating aspects of work
I've done in more recent yearshas been to see how that the
attitudes and activities of theevangelical movement in Britain
has spread to other parts of theworld.
Now it is partly through thecolonists themselves, people who
went out as emigrants fromBritain, immigrants to places
(24:50):
like Canada, australia, newZealand, south Africa, and, in
smaller numbers, to other partsof the world, apart, of course,
from the United States, whichalways took the largest number
of immigrants but was not partof our empire after the 1780s.
I have found it fascinating tolook at the way in which the
(25:12):
attitudes and activities of theevangelical groups that went out
in that way were very, verysimilar, to a large extent
identical to contemporaryattitudes in Britain, and I'm
illustrating that in the nearfuture Next month, all being
well I'm coming to AcadiaDivinity School in Nova Scotia
(25:35):
giving a lecture at a Baptisthistory conference on
conservatism, liberalism andCanadian Baptists.
Now that's about theconservative theological trends,
the liberal theological trendsand how they've impacted on
Canada in that one denominationthe Baptists over time but it's
(25:56):
informed by the sort ofexperience I've had of exploring
the sources on the British side.
In the following month, in May,I'm going to do a paper at the
Anglican Theological College inMelbourne, lidley College.
I'm going to do a paper that Iactually finished writing
yesterday, intriguingly on theMelbourne General Cemetery and
(26:22):
how that can be seen as a key tounderstanding the
denominational patternprevailing amongst colonists in
the mid-19th century, and I'vevery much enjoyed it.
It's been fresh.
I depend on my personal library, of course, for doing this, but
that's there, I'm glad to say,and it's been possible.
I've found that the britishcolonial experience has informed
(26:47):
my understanding of the churchhistory of much of the
english-speaking world of thecommonwealth.
There's a downside as well, ofcourse.
The aborigines weren't treatedvery nicely in melbourne, for
instance.
That is to say, the indigenousAustralians were neglected and
(27:08):
sometimes treated with contempt.
The efforts to spread thegospel to them were not as
powerful as they ought to havebeen, partly because of the
difficulty of translation of theBible into a multiplicity of
languages.
So there is that downside.
But in relation to the historyof the british empire one must
never forget the enormouscontribution and enduring legacy
(27:30):
of that great evangelicalleader, william wilberforce and
his campaign, the ending ofslavery, greatest plot on the
scutcheon of british history inthe period in the 19th century.
And there was that successfulattempt to do away with the
slave trade and subsequently thecampaign against slavery too.
These things must not beforgotten in our day.
Brian Stiller (27:53):
As you've looked at denominations, do you see
much collaboration and if you do, what values do you see out of
the collaboration the breakingdown of denominational barriers
so that groups can work together?
Is there much evidence for that?
David Bebbington (28:11):
Definitely, I think since the 1960s there has
been a marked weakening ofdenominational allegiance in
many of the Western countries.
That is partly becausecharismatic renewal created
bonds between congregations thathad experienced renewal.
(28:34):
They had more in common withother congregations in other
denominations that werecharismatic, with congregations
in their own denomination thatwere not, with congregations of
their own denomination that werenot.
Also, in a period when in theWest religion has not been as
flourishing as it was before the1960s the exception of parts of
the United States that there'salmost been a necessity for
(28:58):
collaboration.
Christians have been throwntogether for common effort.
In the third world, the commonenterprise of spreading the
gospel has sometimes led togreater denominational identity.
But even there, sometimescollaboration has been very
marked.
It can be a good thing.
It can, however, lead to a lossof a blessing showered on
(29:22):
particular Christian groups inthe past.
To have forgotten, for example,the legacy of William
Wilberforce would be an enormousloss.
To have forgotten the legacy ofWilliam Carey, the great
missionary, founder, would be anenormous loss.
And sometimes I think that amixing together of groups in our
(29:51):
day has led to the loss of thehistorical memories which could
entrench and empower the churchin our day.
But there are remedies for that, and the chief remedy is
reading more history books.
Brian Stiller (30:03):
Thank you, david, for joining us today and for
sharing with us your expertiseand insight into the history of
evangelicalism, and thank youfor being a part of the podcast.
Be sure to share this episodeusing hashtag evangelical360,
and please subscribe on YouTube.
If you'd like to learn moreabout today's guest, check the
(30:25):
show notes for links and info,and if you haven't already
received my free book andnewsletter, please go to
brianstillercom.
And please note that this isthe second podcast that we have
done with David Bevington.
You may want to go back andlisten to the first podcast as
well.
Thank you, until next time,don't miss the next interview,
(30:52):
be sure to subscribe toEvangelical 360 on YouTube.
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