June 20, 2025 • 39 mins
What happens when Indigenous identity meets Christianity? For Rev. Dr. Ray Aldred, Director of Indigenous Studies at Vancouver School of Theology, this intersection has been both painful and profoundly illuminating.
Ray's story begins with generational trauma - a grandmother lost to alcoholism, a murdered uncle, experiences of racism that as a child he simply thought were "how it is with everybody." His journey through addiction to Christian faith, and eventually to deeper healing, reveals the gaps in how many churches address cultural shame and historical wounds.
"When you feel ashamed of who you are," Ray explains, "you think you're too bad to receive God's love. You spend most of your Christian life trying to do more religious stuff so God will actually love you." This breakthrough realization transformed not only his personal faith but his approach to theology and reconciliation.
The conversation takes a fascinating turn when Ray describes reading scripture through Indigenous eyes. Suddenly biblical humour comes alive, community connections deepen, and creation itself becomes family. His interpretation of Adam as "son of God" led to the revelation that the earth could be understood as mother - not in an idolatrous sense, but as a relative deserving care and respect. "If people could feel that about the land," he suggests, "maybe we could make different decisions when it comes to how we live upon it."
As Canada continues its journey toward reconciliation following the devastating legacy of residential schools, Ray offers wisdom for moving forward: tell the truth completely, listen with your heart to understand pain, then develop a shared plan to heal the damage. His approach places "the gospel in the center" while honoring Indigenous identity and addressing historical trauma.
For anyone seeking to understand Christianity beyond colonial frameworks or wondering how faith communities might participate meaningfully in reconciliation, Ray's insights illuminate a path that requires courage, honesty and deep listening.
You can learn more with Ray Aldred through his books and the Vancouver School of Theology.
And you can share this episode using hashtag #Evangelical360 and join the conversation online!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brian Stiller (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm your host, brian Stiller,and I'm pleased to share with
you another conversation withleaders, changemakers and
influencers impacting Christianlife around the world.
Please listen in and join theconversation on YouTube in the
comments below, and be sure tosubscribe and share this episode
(00:31):
, and please use hashtagEvangelical360.
My guest today is the ReverendDr Ray Aldred, Director of
Indigenous Studies at theVancouver School of Theology.
The story of Christianity inNorth America, as in many other
countries, is about those whoarrived from elsewhere, who
(00:51):
claim land as their right, andthen we see the consequences
those claims create.
Over the last century in Canada, one of the most
heart-wrenching realities of ourhistory is that of Indigenous
children who were forciblyplaced in residential schools
overseen by Catholic andProtestant churches.
I'm grateful for Indigenousleaders, theologians and friends
(01:17):
such as Ray Aldred, who arewilling to speak and share about
the history of this land, itsoriginal people and their
relationship with the church andwhat it means with the gospel
today.
Ray Aldred, thank you forjoining us on Evangelical 360.
Ray Aldred (01:40):
Hey, it's great to see you, Brian.
It's good to be here.
Brian Stiller (01:43):
Ray.
Our hearts break when we hearstories of children being rooted
out of families and home.
And yet we can't stop.
We've got to move on with faithand love, and I guess the
question to ask about theIndigenous community is is there
hope?
today.
Ray Aldred (02:03):
I think there's always been hope among
Indigenous people.
I mean that's why Indigenouspeople keep asking for
reconciliation.
They're the ones who call forreconciliation.
I'm in Regina today and Iremember listening to elders say
Indigenous people are the mostforgiving people in Canada.
(02:24):
No matter what's happened, theycontinue to you know, call on
the rest of Canada to bereconciled to you know, heal the
land, to heal relationships.
So I always find indigenouspeople hopeful.
Brian Stiller (02:44):
You have worked your way through this story, of
course, from your childhood,being of your own ancestry and
you have lived within theevangelical church.
You now teach at the VancouverSchool of Theology.
You have wandered down thehalls of many institutions and
you've watched denominations inlocal churches.
(03:04):
Yep, the halls of manyinstitutions and you've watched
denominations in local churches.
So if the Indigenous communityhas hope, are the rest of us
ignorant or insensitive, orsimply uninformed?
Ray Aldred (03:20):
I think that maybe popular evangelicalism thinks
that there's some.
I think they think sometimesthere's some magic formula
that's going to solve somethingand somehow tension and sort of
difficult situations are somehowgoing to be gone.
(03:41):
But that's, and when I readtheology and read church history
, that's never been the case.
I think maybe sometimes withmodernity, popular
evangelicalism promisessomething that it can't deliver
on.
So maybe that's why people feeldisillusioned.
Leslie Newbigin wrote in a book, foolishness to the Greeks, the
(04:05):
Gospel of Western Culture, thatpeople in Western culture are
addicted to happiness.
They think that somebody shouldbe able to give them happiness,
no matter what, and of coursethey get disillusioned with God,
they get disillusioned withpolitics, and so they keep
looking for this, somethingthat's going to make them happy
(04:28):
all the time.
I think that's why contemporarymodern evangelicals sometimes
lose hope, because no one canhave happy all the time.
It's just not going to happen.
Brian Stiller (04:43):
Ray, in your family, in your childhood you're
growing up was there adisruption in your family
because you were Indigenous?
Were there problems related togrowing?
Ray Aldred (04:57):
Yeah, my grandmother was an alcoholic.
She left my mother.
My mother raised her threeyounger sisters from the time
(05:24):
she was about eight.
She left because my grandfatherwas quite abusive in those days
.
So then I really didn't have aclose relationship with my
grandmother.
I thought my mom tried to sortof make it better somehow.
My uncle was murdered and mycousin died on the downtown east
side.
All these things were I whenyou're a kid.
So growing up you just thinkthat's how everybody grows up.
So you just don't think youkind of, when you're a kid you
(05:45):
don't know people are beingracist to you, you just think
that's the way it is.
But you know people don't rentthings to you or people call you
names.
You just think that's how it iswith everybody.
It's only later that yourealize that's probably not the
way things are supposed to be.
But I had my mom and dad triedhard, but I was thankful that my
(06:15):
mom didn't drink and my daddidn't drink much either.
But it was in our family and Iwas aware of it.
Brian Stiller (06:23):
So when you say that evangelicals aren't very
good at dealing with trauma, wasthe trauma in your life that
wasn't dealt with?
Ray Aldred (06:32):
It's generational trauma.
You know when it happens forgeneration after generation.
You know, and if you grow upfeeling ashamed because you're
First Nations, theevangelicalism had no answers
for that Popular evangelicalism.
Now, once you get into theology, you know some theologians have
(06:54):
some good ideas and then Iactually found guys like Dan
Allender, larry Crabb that therewas some answers there but they
weren't mainstream or reallypopular all the time.
Back when I first got intoevangelicalism.
Brian Stiller (07:16):
Trauma is accumulative.
It isn't just personal as firstperson, but it comes from the
past as first person, but itcomes from the past.
Ray Aldred (07:28):
Yeah, yeah, well, it can be.
See, trauma can just happen.
You know someone diestragically or you know something
that can happen.
I think last time I looked itup probably 20% of the general
population.
That's how trauma impacts.
Maybe 20% of the peopleexperience that kind of trauma
(07:50):
like tragic death, so they havea relative who dies tragically,
or maybe 20% of society.
But for indigenous people it'slike 80% of us have experienced
that and it impacts you.
It affects you and it's passedon because you know, if your
(08:12):
parents, if your mother learnsto deal with trauma by just not
feeling and being hard to makeit, then that's what gets handed
on to you and that's what youlearn, then that's what gets
handed on to you and that's whatyou learn.
So that's kind of what I learned
Brian Stiller (08:34):
At what?
point in your life did yourealize trauma, or whatever else
you would call it, was part ofyour inheritance.
Ray Aldred (08:42):
Well, I think that when I moved to Regina,
saskatchewan, to do mybachelor's degrees my third year
I started pastoring a FirstNations church and listening to
people, listening to residentialschool survivors, and realizing
the answers that I have aren'tworking here.
You know, I remember sitting invisiting with someone who was
incarcerated for about I thinkthey'd been incarcerated
(09:04):
probably 40 or 50 times I don'tthink I'm exaggerating Always,
just maybe a month or two at atime.
30 days always not long terms,not a long bit.
And I realized, when I prayedwith the person, I prayed for
them to receive Jesus.
I remember they opened theireyes, they looked at us and said
(09:25):
that was good and he said I'vedone that so many times.
He said so many times.
And I realized, okay, there'ssomething else going on here.
There's something else going onhere that he would keep, you
know, get out of jail, somethingwould happen.
(09:45):
He'd bend up back into it Likethere's something else going on
and it was trauma.
And listening to people'sstories and then, looking at
your own heart, you realize,yeah, there's stuff going on.
I mean, I came to faith becauseI was a drug addict and I
couldn't quit drinking.
And I said, jesus, if you helpme quit using, I'll do whatever
(10:08):
you want me to.
Well, at the time, I said God.
A couple of days later, that'swhen my brother prayed for me to
receive Jesus.
I prayed to reset Jesus or puthis spirit in me, and then,
intuitively, I ended up doingall the things you do in the 12
steps.
I had three people for the nextyear.
(10:30):
I had three people that I couldcall one of them at any time,
24 hours a day, when I wasreally struggling, because when
you quit using, when you quitusing soft drugs and we quit
drinking for about eight monthsto a year, every day you have
this anxiety that pushes you todrink or to use.
And I had someone to call.
(10:51):
And then the holiness movement.
You know you end up thinkingabout what's going on.
You try to make amends, but itwas years later.
You know, I was ordained in 1995.
And my wife and I a few yearslater maybe five years after
(11:14):
that we'd been married about 18years we went to marriage
encounter, which was good for us, helped us because we weren't
hearing one another much anymore, but it was after a couple
years.
After that we went to helped usbecause we weren't hearing one
another much anymore, but it wasafter a couple years.
After that we went to it wascalled Survivors of Abuse
Leadership Training and while wewere there we realized I
(11:36):
realized there's a whole bunchof other stuff going on inside,
because when you feel ashamed ofwho you are, what happens is
you think you're too bad toreceive God's love.
You spend most of yourChristian life trying to do more
religious stuff.
So God will actually love you.
(11:58):
And at some point a friend ofmine said to me you know there's
something worse than your pain.
And I said what's that?
He said it's your sin.
So I remember thinking what ajerk who tells a guy that he
feels like, know, you're feelingall your pain from your past.
And you tell him it's your sin.
And he said you believe you'reunlovable.
(12:20):
And I remember thinking that'sit.
That's the thing.
I think that a lot of firstnations, I think a lot of people
, they think that they're toobad, god couldn, couldn't love
me and you actually holdyourself away.
So I remember I said, god, giveme the gift of repentance.
(12:44):
And I began to weep and it feltlike I got born again, right
there Somehow.
I said, god, put your love inme.
And there was a new freedomthat came.
I mean, it's like this happenedover like a year, maybe years,
(13:06):
just thinking about stuff.
I remember I told that story toRichard Twist, who you probably
remember, and he said, brother,pentecostal church.
We'd say you got the Holy Ghostand I said, well, I don't know,
call it whatever you want, butthat was key and you know that
(13:34):
it's there in places, but that'snot what popular evangelicalism
was Like.
This was stuff.
It was there but it wasn'tpopular.
Brian Stiller (13:46):
I'm not quite sure I understand, ray, what
wasn't popular, what's notpopular that you would have this
experience of as you prayed forrepentance and you felt the
love of God fill your life.
I mean that.
Ray Aldred (14:02):
It's not popular to sit with someone else and talk
about what's really going oninside that wasn't popular.
And to talk about the impactsof trauma and to talk about the
lies that you have believedabout yourself, to look at your
(14:23):
heart, that wasn't popular.
It's not easy always to find achurch where you can be honest
about what's going on or you canbe half healed, so that wasn't
popular in those days.
You had to go someplace else.
You had to try to find acourageous space where you could
(14:46):
actually do that.
That wasn't everywhere.
So that's what, going furtheramong my indigenous people,
that's where that led me becausepeople were.
They were trying to deal withstuff like that.
That wasn't being dealt with inpopular evangelicalism.
Brian Stiller (15:10):
So what was the next step in your life?
Ray Aldred (15:15):
Oh wow.
I pastored a church and theneventually I got into leadership
development and startedthinking about doing theology
and someone told me I should doa doctorate.
I started bringing togethertheology and my indigenous
identity and see how they couldsee one another Like what was
(15:36):
different, what looked differentNow.
That started when I was doingmy master's degree, trying to
read, trying to interpret theBible through Indigenous eyes,
and that was because you couldsee things, change things.
(15:56):
Help me discover story and helpme to understand what was going
on, that there was more in thebible than what maybe I had
thought before.
I remember when I thought Ishould read this like an
Indigenous person instead oftrying to read it like an
(16:20):
academic scholar and I saw humorwhere I hadn't seen humor
before or I could understand howtribal people were thinking.
When I thought about how mypeople function already and
creation, my understanding ofcreation shifted and my
(16:43):
understanding of who Jesus wasand his shifted Sure I was
reading the story about when theangel comes and says you know
you're going to have a child.
You know Abram's older and hesays I'm going to call you
father of many nations.
If you think about it, that'sfunny, but I couldn't see the
(17:07):
humor in it until I startedthinking about how we use
nicknames among my own people.
So people use nicknames becausethey're teasing you about
something.
So God shows up, or an angel ofthe Lord shows up and says to
Abram I'm going to call youfather of many nations and he's
(17:28):
too old really to have a baby.
He's 99.
I just thought that's funny andit's.
And then sarah.
Then I finally understood.
Sarah laughs like his wifelaughs when she hears it too.
She laughs because she knowsokay, he's old, this isn't
happening.
(17:49):
And then suddenly the angelsays don't laugh.
And the whole story stood uplike it.
Just I couldn't see that forall that it was, but through my
(18:17):
eyes, or the story, when, who is?
It comes to Jesus and Jesussays here is a true Israelite in
whom there is no guile.
Yes, that's funny, becauseIsrael's name is Jacob.
Jacob means like trickster,liar, and Jesus says here is a
true Israelite in whom there isno God.
It's funny it was things likethat but also being able to see
(18:45):
how really creation is reallycentral to the gospel and why
John would say all things thatcame into being came into being
through him, like through,through the word, and I just
shifted my thinking about itbecause land was a relative and
(19:12):
then I hadn't understood that,and then I hadn't understood
that.
But it was actually reading that.
I was reading the genealogy ofJesus, you know, in Luke, and it
goes all the way back to Adam.
So it starts with Jesus, goesall the way to Adam, and then it
says Adam, the son of God.
(19:33):
And I'm sitting there and I'mthinking, okay, adam the son of
God.
And I'm sitting there and I'mthinking, okay, adam is the son
of God.
I don't know if I I know whatLuke's trying to do.
He's trying to set up thatJesus is the new Adam.
Right, and then I startedthinking in my mind.
I started thinking so, if Maryis the mother of Jesus and he's
the son of God, mary is themother of Jesus, jesus is the
(19:56):
son of God.
And I'm thinking Mary is themother of Jesus and he's the son
of God.
Mary is the mother of Jesus,jesus is the son of God.
And I'm thinking Mary is themother of Jesus.
And then I just said so, who'sthe mother of Adam?
And then I just thought it'sthe earth.
And when I thought that,suddenly I had this feeling
about the earth and I understoodwhy the elders call the earth
(20:19):
our mother, for she provides forus Everything.
My dad taught me how to trap,my mom taught me how to snare
rabbits, my mom and dad taughtme how to fish, how to hunt, and
everything that we eat comesfrom the land.
She provides for us.
I mean, ultimately, Iunderstand it comes from the
(20:41):
creator, but the earth cares forus.
We get our heat from the earth,we get our clothing from the
earth.
Everything comes from the earth.
She's like our mother.
I didn't have any desire toworship the earth, but I felt
something for the earth, like afamily connection, and I
(21:01):
remember thinking you know, ifpeople could feel that about the
land not that they wouldworship the earth, but that they
could feel something Maybe wecould make different decisions
when it comes to how we liveupon the land, not upon the
earth if we understood it waspart of the family.
(21:21):
And that also helped me tounderstand the incarnation, for
Jesus is fully God, fully human,creator and creation in perfect
harmony, and I thought, hey,that's cool.
So then that helped me to thinkabout a whole bunch of other
(21:45):
things, like restorative justiceand sin and how all these
things work together.
So I owe that all to Indigenouspeople.
Theology gave me some good youknow, they have some good
language.
It taught me the stories of theBible.
Indigenous people helped me tounderstand them in ways that I
(22:07):
just didn't learn in seminary.
Brian Stiller (22:10):
What is that different lens through which
they see life, the scriptures,the world around us.
Ray Aldred (22:20):
Well, over the years I've tried to think about that.
One of them is just that thestory happens on the land.
It's within creation.
That's the only place that weencounter the creator is in
creation, like there's no otherplace, I don't know.
(22:41):
Sometimes we talk, sometimes Idon't know.
If people talk they think thatthere's someplace else they
could go, but there isn't.
It's in creation.
That's where we encounter thecreator.
That's the only place.
And story it's always a story,because I heard it from my
theology professor, but I thinkI learned it from indigenous
(23:02):
people Some truths are so bigthey can only be contained in a
story.
So you've got to tell the story.
You've got to tell the storyand then, as we would gather
around the story, then it comesto life, then it I don't know
I'm taken into the story, thestory is taken into me and
somehow there's this thingthat's happening.
(23:22):
So it's growth to me, andsomehow there's this thing
that's happening, so it's growth.
I also am thankful that myparents taught me that you know,
something good happens to yourrelative, that you should feel
good about that.
You shouldn't be jealous ofthem.
That's, they're your relative.
(23:43):
So it's like it happened to me,so it happened to my brothers,
it's like it happened to me.
So it happened to my brothers,it's like it happened to me.
So that communal identity youcould.
It was good and he also taughtme the importance of emotion.
That emotion was a place youcould start and you could learn
something from it.
Now, brian, as a Pentecostal,you should understand that part,
(24:07):
like the emotion, likeemotion's important.
But I found Indigenous elders.
They didn't discount emotion asa way.
It's complicated.
You needed a community tounderstand what was going on,
but it was there.
So those kind of lenses,through the lens of emotions,
(24:29):
through the lens of community,through the lens of the land and
through the lens of story thatwas.
It's not like those thingsaren't there in the rest of
society, but they just arefurther back in the memory than
they were for indigenous people.
These things were right in thefront so they could teach me
(24:52):
about these things.
Those are the things that Ithink about.
I had four children.
That would be a good study, youknow.
But lots of us who got into liketrying to bring together
indigenous Christianity and, and, uh, of us who got into like
trying to bring togetherindigenous Christianity and and
(25:13):
trying to bring togetherindigenous and Christian.
Lots of our kids just walkedaway.
They walked away from thechurch.
I'm not going to say theywalked away from Christian faith
, but they just didn't want.
Maybe because they saw theirdads and their moms get in such
grief Like how could you stay?
(25:35):
How could you stay?
I don't know enough about it toeither, but sometimes it seems
like our kids take it harderthan we did.
Well, when you were, when youknow, different denominations
were censoring us or telling uswhen we took, you know, got
(25:56):
accused of stuff, told we were,you know, idolatrous, or told we
were heretics or that, that wasall stuff happening when we
were trying to bring togetherChristian faith and and being
indigenous, and maybe our kidssaw that and just didn't want
(26:19):
any part of it.
They just kind of walked away.
None of my kids areanti-Christian, but I think
probably only one of them would,you know, still be involved in
the church.
Brian Stiller (26:36):
Have they walked away from being indigenous or
have they embraced it?
Ray Aldred (26:40):
No, no, no.
Indigenous is the thing that.
So when we were so, when lotsof us Brian, when you remember
we met lots of us were trying tohold together being indigenous
and being Christian, we weretrying to hold this together.
I think today, I don't know ifyoung people are actually trying
(27:04):
to hold Christianity anymore atall.
They're just saying I want tobe indigenous, Now that's.
I don't think that's what wewere going for, but sometimes
that's what we ended up with.
Brian Stiller (27:15):
But being Indigenous, it seems to me, by
its very nature embracesspirituality.
But does that spirituality notinclude the Christian story?
Ray Aldred (27:30):
Well, I think it does, and they still might
include parts of it.
Maybe it's the church theydon't like, but that's lots of
us, isn't it?
I don't know.
That's the question I'm tryingto work out in my mind.
That's why I say it would be aninteresting study just to go
and talk with all these.
You know, I got people I talkwith my children about it and
(27:55):
they got burned.
It wasn't just because they sawme get burned, but they got
burned.
They got burned in the church.
Usually it was always aboutpeople trying to give simple or
easy answers to complexquestions.
So they just said man, this is.
I mean, you run into lots ofpeople like that, I suppose.
Brian Stiller (28:23):
Ray, it's been fascinating just to listen to
you tell your story.
Your story is playing out on alarger landscape here in Canada,
and it's true in othercountries as well New Zealand,
australia, south Africa, I meanjust place after place.
The European settlers that camein and took land settlers that
(28:46):
came in and took land.
We've gone through variousscenarios of trying to find some
kind of reconciliation,understanding, reparations.
Even here in Canada we've gonethrough the Reconciliation
Commission and there's been anenormous amount of conversation.
And at the political level youhave various, for example,
(29:08):
economic initiatives.
Many of them, especiallyrelated to energy, can't be done
unless indigenous community isthere, participates and approves
.
So there's been an awful lot ofstuff that's been going on and
going on today on that landscape.
As a professor at a majoruniversity and as an avowed
(29:32):
Christian with your own story ofnew birth and life in Christ,
where is that going for you?
Ray Aldred (29:41):
The thing that I work on most is teaching people
how to place the gospel in thecenter.
Like I'm a firm believer inthat, we should.
I think the elders taught usthat we need to make sure that
we place the gospel in thecenter.
So to gather around, I meanevery new gospel-based
(30:02):
discipleship I do with my classand what that involves is we
read the gospel, usually fromthe lectionary, whatever the
Eucharistic reading from thelectionary is, and we read the
gospel and then we say what arethe words, ideas or phrases that
come to mind when you hear that?
And then we say let me read itagain.
(30:23):
I said someone else read adifferent translation.
And then I say to my students Isay let me read it again.
I said someone else read adifferent translation.
And then I say to my students Isay so what is it?
What is the gospel Jesus sayingto you?
And people share their ideas.
And then I read it.
If we read it together a thirdtime in another translation, we
say what is the gospel or Jesuscalling you to do?
(30:47):
And I try to do that becauseit's all about the gospel.
Now that part, evangelicals getright, the church gets right.
It's about the gospel.
So I try to place the gospel inthe center and then we'll work
on the other things together.
But I do that with everybodybecause I don't try to like I
(31:13):
don't.
I do it with people, I don'tknow if they say they're
Christian or not Christian.
That's just what I do.
That's kind of what I do.
So we gather around the gospeland then we try to after we we
do that, we try to tackle theissues that are before us.
I mean, I use restorativejustice a lot.
You gotta tell the truth.
I think the good thing incanada, the sign that stuff was
(31:36):
changing, like it was a 30-yearjourney, wasn't it brian?
It was 30.
But can can?
Indigenous people told thetruth.
Canada started to tell thetruth, churches started to tell
the truth Like completedisclosure.
Number two people began tolisten with their heart, you
(32:00):
know, to really listen Not justto the words being said but to
understand the pain thatdifferent people have caused,
the pain.
And once you feel that, then youhave the emotional energy to
try to come up with a plan, ashared plan.
How do we fix the damage?
And I just think that that'swhere we're at as a society
(32:23):
we're trying to come up with aplan how do we fix the damage.
And I think that's my approach,I think everybody's committed
to that, and so I just treatpeople that way.
I try not to spend too much timemaking people feel bad about
what happened, unless that'swhat they need.
(32:45):
I suppose I try to think, okay,so then I don't.
I just think, look, canada'sguilty, that's an objective fact
, that's not a feeling, that'sjust, that's just happened.
Okay, so let's move to the nextthing.
So now, how do we heal thedamage?
How do we heal the damage?
(33:06):
How do we heal the damage?
And I see different things.
Usually it's always in thelocal church or different people
just trying to heal the damage.
And that's why my wife and Ispend a lot of time doing stuff
with trauma helping people tostrengthen their coping
strategies.
Helping people to strengthentheir coping strategies, helping
(33:27):
people to grieve in a healthierway, helping people to, you
know, see what lies they believethemselves, so that then they
can sort of, you know, start tounderstand that Jesus loves them
and he likes them.
And that's kind of what we do.
But you got to go to the hardstuff, and I think that's the
(33:49):
thing that evangelicals maybe inthe 80s.
Maybe they're trying to dealwith the hard things and they
thought if they just, you know,focus on facts or propositional
truths, somehow that'll you know, help, but it You've got to
deal with the hard stuff, you'vegot to go there, not so you can
stay there, but you've got tomove through it.
(34:12):
You've got to move through itand then figure out how you're
going to heal it.
I don't know that's a lot ofwords, brian, but that's kind of
what I try to do, and neverforget the gospel.
Brian Stiller (34:27):
Ray, it's been just a pleasure for me just to
listen to you and to hear thewords and to feel the rhythms of
your heart and to hear betweenthe lines, the words.
And I was raised in theprairies, as you know, and in
(34:55):
the 50s and 40s and 50s, at ourchurch that was that simply had
no understanding of what hadhappened.
As the settlers moved in andland was taken and lifestyle
(35:21):
upended and identity cursed.
We had no understanding of whatwas going on.
We were blind and deaf.
I look back to that and Irealize with steep sorrow the
(35:44):
failure of my church, myPentecostal evangelical church.
As honest as they were, as goodas they tried to be as close to
the gospel as we attempted tolive our lives, we just didn't
understand what was going on.
(36:07):
To the First Nations, métisIndigenous, the variety of words
come to me as I remember thepast.
It's a reminder that all of us,both by generation and by
individual life, we walk throughplaces, we walk by people, we
(36:35):
listen to words and we don't seeand we don't hear the
accumulation you talk about,trauma accumulating out of your
past.
I think the failure of thegospel witness has brought its
(37:02):
own kind of trauma failure andthe trauma of the past.
I think also we are dealingwith that even in the
acceleration of church andchurch growth.
There is something that needsto, and I think is going on,
where that confession of failureand cultural deafness needs to
(37:29):
find resolve and ways that allowthe next generation to move on,
that are much more sensitive tothe things that we simply were
insensitive to.
I've been in ministry for sixdecades and I realize that there
have been moments and placesand with people where I've
(37:54):
simply failed.
Ray Aldred (37:56):
Yeah, well, you know we committed to be agents of
reconciliation.
Didn't we Remember that meetingwe had in Winnipeg?
Brian Stiller (38:04):
I do.
I'll never forget that.
Ray Aldred (38:07):
And I just think we're trying to do that best we
can and in the end, that's allyou can do, I think, is to try
to be honest with people.
There's a phrase, og Cree word,it's inanamon.
It means the feelings that wehave in our heart.
(38:28):
You've got to talk about thosethings, you've got to try to
understand them.
Brian Stiller (38:35):
Thank you, ray, for joining us today and for
helping us understand our sharedhistory and what the Christian
faith means to Indigenousbrothers and sisters today, and
thank you for being a part ofthe podcast.
I'd be so grateful if you wouldsubscribe and share this
episode, and always use hashtagEvangelical360.
(38:55):
If you'd like to learn moreabout today's guest, be sure to
check the show notes ordescription below, and if you
haven't already received my freee-book and newsletter, please
go to brianstillercom.
Thank you for joining us, untilnext time.
Don't miss the next interview.
(39:16):
Be sure to subscribe toEvangelical 360 on YouTube.
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm your host, brian Stiller,and I'm pleased to share with
you another conversation withleaders, changemakers and
influencers impacting Christianlife around the world.
Please listen in and join theconversation on YouTube in the
comments below, and be sure tosubscribe and share this episode
(00:31):
, and please use hashtagEvangelical360.
My guest today is the ReverendDr Ray Aldred, Director of
Indigenous Studies at theVancouver School of Theology.
The story of Christianity inNorth America, as in many other
countries, is about those whoarrived from elsewhere, who
(00:51):
claim land as their right, andthen we see the consequences
those claims create.
Over the last century in Canada, one of the most
heart-wrenching realities of ourhistory is that of Indigenous
children who were forciblyplaced in residential schools
overseen by Catholic andProtestant churches.
I'm grateful for Indigenousleaders, theologians and friends
(01:17):
such as Ray Aldred, who arewilling to speak and share about
the history of this land, itsoriginal people and their
relationship with the church andwhat it means with the gospel
today.
Ray Aldred, thank you forjoining us on Evangelical 360.
Ray Aldred (01:40):
Hey, it's great to see you, Brian.
It's good to be here.
Brian Stiller (01:43):
Ray.
Our hearts break when we hearstories of children being rooted
out of families and home.
And yet we can't stop.
We've got to move on with faithand love, and I guess the
question to ask about theIndigenous community is is there
hope?
today.
Ray Aldred (02:03):
I think there's always been hope among
Indigenous people.
I mean that's why Indigenouspeople keep asking for
reconciliation.
They're the ones who call forreconciliation.
I'm in Regina today and Iremember listening to elders say
Indigenous people are the mostforgiving people in Canada.
(02:24):
No matter what's happened, theycontinue to you know, call on
the rest of Canada to bereconciled to you know, heal the
land, to heal relationships.
So I always find indigenouspeople hopeful.
Brian Stiller (02:44):
You have worked your way through this story, of
course, from your childhood,being of your own ancestry and
you have lived within theevangelical church.
You now teach at the VancouverSchool of Theology.
You have wandered down thehalls of many institutions and
you've watched denominations inlocal churches.
(03:04):
Yep, the halls of manyinstitutions and you've watched
denominations in local churches.
So if the Indigenous communityhas hope, are the rest of us
ignorant or insensitive, orsimply uninformed?
Ray Aldred (03:20):
I think that maybe popular evangelicalism thinks
that there's some.
I think they think sometimesthere's some magic formula
that's going to solve somethingand somehow tension and sort of
difficult situations are somehowgoing to be gone.
(03:41):
But that's, and when I readtheology and read church history
, that's never been the case.
I think maybe sometimes withmodernity, popular
evangelicalism promisessomething that it can't deliver
on.
So maybe that's why people feeldisillusioned.
Leslie Newbigin wrote in a book, foolishness to the Greeks, the
(04:05):
Gospel of Western Culture, thatpeople in Western culture are
addicted to happiness.
They think that somebody shouldbe able to give them happiness,
no matter what, and of coursethey get disillusioned with God,
they get disillusioned withpolitics, and so they keep
looking for this, somethingthat's going to make them happy
(04:28):
all the time.
I think that's why contemporarymodern evangelicals sometimes
lose hope, because no one canhave happy all the time.
It's just not going to happen.
Brian Stiller (04:43):
Ray, in your family, in your childhood you're
growing up was there adisruption in your family
because you were Indigenous?
Were there problems related togrowing?
Ray Aldred (04:57):
Yeah, my grandmother was an alcoholic.
She left my mother.
My mother raised her threeyounger sisters from the time
(05:24):
she was about eight.
She left because my grandfatherwas quite abusive in those days
.
So then I really didn't have aclose relationship with my
grandmother.
I thought my mom tried to sortof make it better somehow.
My uncle was murdered and mycousin died on the downtown east
side.
All these things were I whenyou're a kid.
So growing up you just thinkthat's how everybody grows up.
So you just don't think youkind of, when you're a kid you
(05:45):
don't know people are beingracist to you, you just think
that's the way it is.
But you know people don't rentthings to you or people call you
names.
You just think that's how it iswith everybody.
It's only later that yourealize that's probably not the
way things are supposed to be.
But I had my mom and dad triedhard, but I was thankful that my
(06:15):
mom didn't drink and my daddidn't drink much either.
But it was in our family and Iwas aware of it.
Brian Stiller (06:23):
So when you say that evangelicals aren't very
good at dealing with trauma, wasthe trauma in your life that
wasn't dealt with?
Ray Aldred (06:32):
It's generational trauma.
You know when it happens forgeneration after generation.
You know, and if you grow upfeeling ashamed because you're
First Nations, theevangelicalism had no answers
for that Popular evangelicalism.
Now, once you get into theology, you know some theologians have
(06:54):
some good ideas and then Iactually found guys like Dan
Allender, larry Crabb that therewas some answers there but they
weren't mainstream or reallypopular all the time.
Back when I first got intoevangelicalism.
Brian Stiller (07:16):
Trauma is accumulative.
It isn't just personal as firstperson, but it comes from the
past as first person, but itcomes from the past.
Ray Aldred (07:28):
Yeah, yeah, well, it can be.
See, trauma can just happen.
You know someone diestragically or you know something
that can happen.
I think last time I looked itup probably 20% of the general
population.
That's how trauma impacts.
Maybe 20% of the peopleexperience that kind of trauma
(07:50):
like tragic death, so they havea relative who dies tragically,
or maybe 20% of society.
But for indigenous people it'slike 80% of us have experienced
that and it impacts you.
It affects you and it's passedon because you know, if your
(08:12):
parents, if your mother learnsto deal with trauma by just not
feeling and being hard to makeit, then that's what gets handed
on to you and that's what youlearn, then that's what gets
handed on to you and that's whatyou learn.
So that's kind of what I learned
Brian Stiller (08:34):
At what?
point in your life did yourealize trauma, or whatever else
you would call it, was part ofyour inheritance.
Ray Aldred (08:42):
Well, I think that when I moved to Regina,
saskatchewan, to do mybachelor's degrees my third year
I started pastoring a FirstNations church and listening to
people, listening to residentialschool survivors, and realizing
the answers that I have aren'tworking here.
You know, I remember sitting invisiting with someone who was
incarcerated for about I thinkthey'd been incarcerated
(09:04):
probably 40 or 50 times I don'tthink I'm exaggerating Always,
just maybe a month or two at atime.
30 days always not long terms,not a long bit.
And I realized, when I prayedwith the person, I prayed for
them to receive Jesus.
I remember they opened theireyes, they looked at us and said
(09:25):
that was good and he said I'vedone that so many times.
He said so many times.
And I realized, okay, there'ssomething else going on here.
There's something else going onhere that he would keep, you
know, get out of jail, somethingwould happen.
(09:45):
He'd bend up back into it Likethere's something else going on
and it was trauma.
And listening to people'sstories and then, looking at
your own heart, you realize,yeah, there's stuff going on.
I mean, I came to faith becauseI was a drug addict and I
couldn't quit drinking.
And I said, jesus, if you helpme quit using, I'll do whatever
(10:08):
you want me to.
Well, at the time, I said God.
A couple of days later, that'swhen my brother prayed for me to
receive Jesus.
I prayed to reset Jesus or puthis spirit in me, and then,
intuitively, I ended up doingall the things you do in the 12
steps.
I had three people for the nextyear.
(10:30):
I had three people that I couldcall one of them at any time,
24 hours a day, when I wasreally struggling, because when
you quit using, when you quitusing soft drugs and we quit
drinking for about eight monthsto a year, every day you have
this anxiety that pushes you todrink or to use.
And I had someone to call.
(10:51):
And then the holiness movement.
You know you end up thinkingabout what's going on.
You try to make amends, but itwas years later.
You know, I was ordained in 1995.
And my wife and I a few yearslater maybe five years after
(11:14):
that we'd been married about 18years we went to marriage
encounter, which was good for us, helped us because we weren't
hearing one another much anymore, but it was after a couple
years.
After that we went to helped usbecause we weren't hearing one
another much anymore, but it wasafter a couple years.
After that we went to it wascalled Survivors of Abuse
Leadership Training and while wewere there we realized I
(11:36):
realized there's a whole bunchof other stuff going on inside,
because when you feel ashamed ofwho you are, what happens is
you think you're too bad toreceive God's love.
You spend most of yourChristian life trying to do more
religious stuff.
So God will actually love you.
(11:58):
And at some point a friend ofmine said to me you know there's
something worse than your pain.
And I said what's that?
He said it's your sin.
So I remember thinking what ajerk who tells a guy that he
feels like, know, you're feelingall your pain from your past.
And you tell him it's your sin.
And he said you believe you'reunlovable.
(12:20):
And I remember thinking that'sit.
That's the thing.
I think that a lot of firstnations, I think a lot of people
, they think that they're toobad, god couldn, couldn't love
me and you actually holdyourself away.
So I remember I said, god, giveme the gift of repentance.
(12:44):
And I began to weep and it feltlike I got born again, right
there Somehow.
I said, god, put your love inme.
And there was a new freedomthat came.
I mean, it's like this happenedover like a year, maybe years,
(13:06):
just thinking about stuff.
I remember I told that story toRichard Twist, who you probably
remember, and he said, brother,pentecostal church.
We'd say you got the Holy Ghostand I said, well, I don't know,
call it whatever you want, butthat was key and you know that
(13:34):
it's there in places, but that'snot what popular evangelicalism
was Like.
This was stuff.
It was there but it wasn'tpopular.
Brian Stiller (13:46):
I'm not quite sure I understand, ray, what
wasn't popular, what's notpopular that you would have this
experience of as you prayed forrepentance and you felt the
love of God fill your life.
I mean that.
Ray Aldred (14:02):
It's not popular to sit with someone else and talk
about what's really going oninside that wasn't popular.
And to talk about the impactsof trauma and to talk about the
lies that you have believedabout yourself, to look at your
(14:23):
heart, that wasn't popular.
It's not easy always to find achurch where you can be honest
about what's going on or you canbe half healed, so that wasn't
popular in those days.
You had to go someplace else.
You had to try to find acourageous space where you could
(14:46):
actually do that.
That wasn't everywhere.
So that's what, going furtheramong my indigenous people,
that's where that led me becausepeople were.
They were trying to deal withstuff like that.
That wasn't being dealt with inpopular evangelicalism.
Brian Stiller (15:10):
So what was the next step in your life?
Ray Aldred (15:15):
Oh wow.
I pastored a church and theneventually I got into leadership
development and startedthinking about doing theology
and someone told me I should doa doctorate.
I started bringing togethertheology and my indigenous
identity and see how they couldsee one another Like what was
(15:36):
different, what looked differentNow.
That started when I was doingmy master's degree, trying to
read, trying to interpret theBible through Indigenous eyes,
and that was because you couldsee things, change things.
(15:56):
Help me discover story and helpme to understand what was going
on, that there was more in thebible than what maybe I had
thought before.
I remember when I thought Ishould read this like an
Indigenous person instead oftrying to read it like an
(16:20):
academic scholar and I saw humorwhere I hadn't seen humor
before or I could understand howtribal people were thinking.
When I thought about how mypeople function already and
creation, my understanding ofcreation shifted and my
(16:43):
understanding of who Jesus wasand his shifted Sure I was
reading the story about when theangel comes and says you know
you're going to have a child.
You know Abram's older and hesays I'm going to call you
father of many nations.
If you think about it, that'sfunny, but I couldn't see the
(17:07):
humor in it until I startedthinking about how we use
nicknames among my own people.
So people use nicknames becausethey're teasing you about
something.
So God shows up, or an angel ofthe Lord shows up and says to
Abram I'm going to call youfather of many nations and he's
(17:28):
too old really to have a baby.
He's 99.
I just thought that's funny andit's.
And then sarah.
Then I finally understood.
Sarah laughs like his wifelaughs when she hears it too.
She laughs because she knowsokay, he's old, this isn't
happening.
(17:49):
And then suddenly the angelsays don't laugh.
And the whole story stood uplike it.
Just I couldn't see that forall that it was, but through my
(18:17):
eyes, or the story, when, who is?
It comes to Jesus and Jesussays here is a true Israelite in
whom there is no guile.
Yes, that's funny, becauseIsrael's name is Jacob.
Jacob means like trickster,liar, and Jesus says here is a
true Israelite in whom there isno God.
It's funny it was things likethat but also being able to see
(18:45):
how really creation is reallycentral to the gospel and why
John would say all things thatcame into being came into being
through him, like through,through the word, and I just
shifted my thinking about itbecause land was a relative and
(19:12):
then I hadn't understood that,and then I hadn't understood
that.
But it was actually reading that.
I was reading the genealogy ofJesus, you know, in Luke, and it
goes all the way back to Adam.
So it starts with Jesus, goesall the way to Adam, and then it
says Adam, the son of God.
(19:33):
And I'm sitting there and I'mthinking, okay, adam the son of
God.
And I'm sitting there and I'mthinking, okay, adam is the son
of God.
I don't know if I I know whatLuke's trying to do.
He's trying to set up thatJesus is the new Adam.
Right, and then I startedthinking in my mind.
I started thinking so, if Maryis the mother of Jesus and he's
the son of God, mary is themother of Jesus, jesus is the
(19:56):
son of God.
And I'm thinking Mary is themother of Jesus and he's the son
of God.
Mary is the mother of Jesus,jesus is the son of God.
And I'm thinking Mary is themother of Jesus.
And then I just said so, who'sthe mother of Adam?
And then I just thought it'sthe earth.
And when I thought that,suddenly I had this feeling
about the earth and I understoodwhy the elders call the earth
(20:19):
our mother, for she provides forus Everything.
My dad taught me how to trap,my mom taught me how to snare
rabbits, my mom and dad taughtme how to fish, how to hunt, and
everything that we eat comesfrom the land.
She provides for us.
I mean, ultimately, Iunderstand it comes from the
(20:41):
creator, but the earth cares forus.
We get our heat from the earth,we get our clothing from the
earth.
Everything comes from the earth.
She's like our mother.
I didn't have any desire toworship the earth, but I felt
something for the earth, like afamily connection, and I
(21:01):
remember thinking you know, ifpeople could feel that about the
land not that they wouldworship the earth, but that they
could feel something Maybe wecould make different decisions
when it comes to how we liveupon the land, not upon the
earth if we understood it waspart of the family.
(21:21):
And that also helped me tounderstand the incarnation, for
Jesus is fully God, fully human,creator and creation in perfect
harmony, and I thought, hey,that's cool.
So then that helped me to thinkabout a whole bunch of other
(21:45):
things, like restorative justiceand sin and how all these
things work together.
So I owe that all to Indigenouspeople.
Theology gave me some good youknow, they have some good
language.
It taught me the stories of theBible.
Indigenous people helped me tounderstand them in ways that I
(22:07):
just didn't learn in seminary.
Brian Stiller (22:10):
What is that different lens through which
they see life, the scriptures,the world around us.
Ray Aldred (22:20):
Well, over the years I've tried to think about that.
One of them is just that thestory happens on the land.
It's within creation.
That's the only place that weencounter the creator is in
creation, like there's no otherplace, I don't know.
(22:41):
Sometimes we talk, sometimes Idon't know.
If people talk they think thatthere's someplace else they
could go, but there isn't.
It's in creation.
That's where we encounter thecreator.
That's the only place.
And story it's always a story,because I heard it from my
theology professor, but I thinkI learned it from indigenous
(23:02):
people Some truths are so bigthey can only be contained in a
story.
So you've got to tell the story.
You've got to tell the storyand then, as we would gather
around the story, then it comesto life, then it I don't know
I'm taken into the story, thestory is taken into me and
somehow there's this thingthat's happening.
(23:22):
So it's growth to me, andsomehow there's this thing
that's happening, so it's growth.
I also am thankful that myparents taught me that you know,
something good happens to yourrelative, that you should feel
good about that.
You shouldn't be jealous ofthem.
That's, they're your relative.
(23:43):
So it's like it happened to me,so it happened to my brothers,
it's like it happened to me.
So it happened to my brothers,it's like it happened to me.
So that communal identity youcould.
It was good and he also taughtme the importance of emotion.
That emotion was a place youcould start and you could learn
something from it.
Now, brian, as a Pentecostal,you should understand that part,
(24:07):
like the emotion, likeemotion's important.
But I found Indigenous elders.
They didn't discount emotion asa way.
It's complicated.
You needed a community tounderstand what was going on,
but it was there.
So those kind of lenses,through the lens of emotions,
(24:29):
through the lens of community,through the lens of the land and
through the lens of story thatwas.
It's not like those thingsaren't there in the rest of
society, but they just arefurther back in the memory than
they were for indigenous people.
These things were right in thefront so they could teach me
(24:52):
about these things.
Those are the things that Ithink about.
I had four children.
That would be a good study, youknow.
But lots of us who got into liketrying to bring together
indigenous Christianity and, and, uh, of us who got into like
trying to bring togetherindigenous Christianity and and
(25:13):
trying to bring togetherindigenous and Christian.
Lots of our kids just walkedaway.
They walked away from thechurch.
I'm not going to say theywalked away from Christian faith
, but they just didn't want.
Maybe because they saw theirdads and their moms get in such
grief Like how could you stay?
(25:35):
How could you stay?
I don't know enough about it toeither, but sometimes it seems
like our kids take it harderthan we did.
Well, when you were, when youknow, different denominations
were censoring us or telling uswhen we took, you know, got
(25:56):
accused of stuff, told we were,you know, idolatrous, or told we
were heretics or that, that wasall stuff happening when we
were trying to bring togetherChristian faith and and being
indigenous, and maybe our kidssaw that and just didn't want
(26:19):
any part of it.
They just kind of walked away.
None of my kids areanti-Christian, but I think
probably only one of them would,you know, still be involved in
the church.
Brian Stiller (26:36):
Have they walked away from being indigenous or
have they embraced it?
Ray Aldred (26:40):
No, no, no.
Indigenous is the thing that.
So when we were so, when lotsof us Brian, when you remember
we met lots of us were trying tohold together being indigenous
and being Christian, we weretrying to hold this together.
I think today, I don't know ifyoung people are actually trying
(27:04):
to hold Christianity anymore atall.
They're just saying I want tobe indigenous, Now that's.
I don't think that's what wewere going for, but sometimes
that's what we ended up with.
Brian Stiller (27:15):
But being Indigenous, it seems to me, by
its very nature embracesspirituality.
But does that spirituality notinclude the Christian story?
Ray Aldred (27:30):
Well, I think it does, and they still might
include parts of it.
Maybe it's the church theydon't like, but that's lots of
us, isn't it?
I don't know.
That's the question I'm tryingto work out in my mind.
That's why I say it would be aninteresting study just to go
and talk with all these.
You know, I got people I talkwith my children about it and
(27:55):
they got burned.
It wasn't just because they sawme get burned, but they got
burned.
They got burned in the church.
Usually it was always aboutpeople trying to give simple or
easy answers to complexquestions.
So they just said man, this is.
I mean, you run into lots ofpeople like that, I suppose.
Brian Stiller (28:23):
Ray, it's been fascinating just to listen to
you tell your story.
Your story is playing out on alarger landscape here in Canada,
and it's true in othercountries as well New Zealand,
australia, south Africa, I meanjust place after place.
The European settlers that camein and took land settlers that
(28:46):
came in and took land.
We've gone through variousscenarios of trying to find some
kind of reconciliation,understanding, reparations.
Even here in Canada we've gonethrough the Reconciliation
Commission and there's been anenormous amount of conversation.
And at the political level youhave various, for example,
(29:08):
economic initiatives.
Many of them, especiallyrelated to energy, can't be done
unless indigenous community isthere, participates and approves
.
So there's been an awful lot ofstuff that's been going on and
going on today on that landscape.
As a professor at a majoruniversity and as an avowed
(29:32):
Christian with your own story ofnew birth and life in Christ,
where is that going for you?
Ray Aldred (29:41):
The thing that I work on most is teaching people
how to place the gospel in thecenter.
Like I'm a firm believer inthat, we should.
I think the elders taught usthat we need to make sure that
we place the gospel in thecenter.
So to gather around, I meanevery new gospel-based
(30:02):
discipleship I do with my classand what that involves is we
read the gospel, usually fromthe lectionary, whatever the
Eucharistic reading from thelectionary is, and we read the
gospel and then we say what arethe words, ideas or phrases that
come to mind when you hear that?
And then we say let me read itagain.
(30:23):
I said someone else read adifferent translation.
And then I say to my students Isay let me read it again.
I said someone else read adifferent translation.
And then I say to my students Isay so what is it?
What is the gospel Jesus sayingto you?
And people share their ideas.
And then I read it.
If we read it together a thirdtime in another translation, we
say what is the gospel or Jesuscalling you to do?
(30:47):
And I try to do that becauseit's all about the gospel.
Now that part, evangelicals getright, the church gets right.
It's about the gospel.
So I try to place the gospel inthe center and then we'll work
on the other things together.
But I do that with everybodybecause I don't try to like I
(31:13):
don't.
I do it with people, I don'tknow if they say they're
Christian or not Christian.
That's just what I do.
That's kind of what I do.
So we gather around the gospeland then we try to after we we
do that, we try to tackle theissues that are before us.
I mean, I use restorativejustice a lot.
You gotta tell the truth.
I think the good thing incanada, the sign that stuff was
(31:36):
changing, like it was a 30-yearjourney, wasn't it brian?
It was 30.
But can can?
Indigenous people told thetruth.
Canada started to tell thetruth, churches started to tell
the truth Like completedisclosure.
Number two people began tolisten with their heart, you
(32:00):
know, to really listen Not justto the words being said but to
understand the pain thatdifferent people have caused,
the pain.
And once you feel that, then youhave the emotional energy to
try to come up with a plan, ashared plan.
How do we fix the damage?
And I just think that that'swhere we're at as a society
(32:23):
we're trying to come up with aplan how do we fix the damage.
And I think that's my approach,I think everybody's committed
to that, and so I just treatpeople that way.
I try not to spend too much timemaking people feel bad about
what happened, unless that'swhat they need.
(32:45):
I suppose I try to think, okay,so then I don't.
I just think, look, canada'sguilty, that's an objective fact
, that's not a feeling, that'sjust, that's just happened.
Okay, so let's move to the nextthing.
So now, how do we heal thedamage?
How do we heal the damage?
(33:06):
How do we heal the damage?
And I see different things.
Usually it's always in thelocal church or different people
just trying to heal the damage.
And that's why my wife and Ispend a lot of time doing stuff
with trauma helping people tostrengthen their coping
strategies.
Helping people to strengthentheir coping strategies, helping
(33:27):
people to grieve in a healthierway, helping people to, you
know, see what lies they believethemselves, so that then they
can sort of, you know, start tounderstand that Jesus loves them
and he likes them.
And that's kind of what we do.
But you got to go to the hardstuff, and I think that's the
(33:49):
thing that evangelicals maybe inthe 80s.
Maybe they're trying to dealwith the hard things and they
thought if they just, you know,focus on facts or propositional
truths, somehow that'll you know, help, but it You've got to
deal with the hard stuff, you'vegot to go there, not so you can
stay there, but you've got tomove through it.
(34:12):
You've got to move through itand then figure out how you're
going to heal it.
I don't know that's a lot ofwords, brian, but that's kind of
what I try to do, and neverforget the gospel.
Brian Stiller (34:27):
Ray, it's been just a pleasure for me just to
listen to you and to hear thewords and to feel the rhythms of
your heart and to hear betweenthe lines, the words.
And I was raised in theprairies, as you know, and in
(34:55):
the 50s and 40s and 50s, at ourchurch that was that simply had
no understanding of what hadhappened.
As the settlers moved in andland was taken and lifestyle
(35:21):
upended and identity cursed.
We had no understanding of whatwas going on.
We were blind and deaf.
I look back to that and Irealize with steep sorrow the
(35:44):
failure of my church, myPentecostal evangelical church.
As honest as they were, as goodas they tried to be as close to
the gospel as we attempted tolive our lives, we just didn't
understand what was going on.
(36:07):
To the First Nations, métisIndigenous, the variety of words
come to me as I remember thepast.
It's a reminder that all of us,both by generation and by
individual life, we walk throughplaces, we walk by people, we
(36:35):
listen to words and we don't seeand we don't hear the
accumulation you talk about,trauma accumulating out of your
past.
I think the failure of thegospel witness has brought its
(37:02):
own kind of trauma failure andthe trauma of the past.
I think also we are dealingwith that even in the
acceleration of church andchurch growth.
There is something that needsto, and I think is going on,
where that confession of failureand cultural deafness needs to
(37:29):
find resolve and ways that allowthe next generation to move on,
that are much more sensitive tothe things that we simply were
insensitive to.
I've been in ministry for sixdecades and I realize that there
have been moments and placesand with people where I've
(37:54):
simply failed.
Ray Aldred (37:56):
Yeah, well, you know we committed to be agents of
reconciliation.
Didn't we Remember that meetingwe had in Winnipeg?
Brian Stiller (38:04):
I do.
I'll never forget that.
Ray Aldred (38:07):
And I just think we're trying to do that best we
can and in the end, that's allyou can do, I think, is to try
to be honest with people.
There's a phrase, og Cree word,it's inanamon.
It means the feelings that wehave in our heart.
(38:28):
You've got to talk about thosethings, you've got to try to
understand them.
Brian Stiller (38:35):
Thank you, ray, for joining us today and for
helping us understand our sharedhistory and what the Christian
faith means to Indigenousbrothers and sisters today, and
thank you for being a part ofthe podcast.
I'd be so grateful if you wouldsubscribe and share this
episode, and always use hashtagEvangelical360.
(38:55):
If you'd like to learn moreabout today's guest, be sure to
check the show notes ordescription below, and if you
haven't already received my freee-book and newsletter, please
go to brianstillercom.
Thank you for joining us, untilnext time.
Don't miss the next interview.
(39:16):
Be sure to subscribe toEvangelical 360 on YouTube.
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