June 27, 2025 • 39 mins
What happens when spiritual passion meets thoughtful engagement? Rev. Dr. David Wells, General Superintendent of the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada, takes us on a remarkable journey through the explosive growth of the Pentecostal movement from its humble beginnings to becoming the largest Protestant movement worldwide.
Against the backdrop of increasing secularization, Wells reveals a surprising counter-narrative: Pentecostal churches are experiencing "incremental growth" with "record levels of first-time responses to Jesus." His approach rejects false dichotomies between heart and mind, embracing instead what he calls "wholehearted, whole-minded, whole-life discipleship."
Perhaps most fascinating is Wells' unique role as chaplain for multiple Olympic Games, where he developed best practices for multi-faith environments. This work required building trust across religious divides while maintaining his evangelical convictions—a skill increasingly valuable in our polarized world.
Wells offers fresh perspectives on denominational identity, describing a shift from rigid "franchise models" to a more flexible "center-set" approach that maintains theological integrity while allowing contextual adaptation. He addresses leadership development challenges with multiple pathways for ministry preparation, including traditional academic routes, second-career ministers, and global perspectives.
For anyone interested in how faith communities can remain vibrant in changing times, Wells provides wisdom drawn from five decades of ministry. His story demonstrates how spiritual renewal comes through both passionate engagement and respectful collaboration, offering hope for the future of the church in an increasingly complex world.
You can learn more about Rev. Dr. David Wells and the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada through their website and Facebook.
And you can share this episode using hashtag #Evangelical360 and join the conversation online!
____________________
▶ Watch Interviews on YouTube
▶ Sign Up for FREE Dispatches From the Global Village
▶ Free Downloadable eBook "Here's Hope"
▶ More Info: evangelical360.com
#evangelical360
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brian Stiller (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm your host, brian Stiller,and I'm pleased to share with
you another conversation withleaders, changemakers and
influencers impacting Christianlife around the world.
We'd love for you to be a partof the podcast by sharing this
(00:34):
episode.
Use hashtag Evangelical360 andjoin the conversation on YouTube
in the comments below.
My guest today is the ReverendDr David Wells, General
Superintendent of thePentecostal Assemblies of Canada
.
Dr David Wells, generalSuperintendent of the
Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada, vice Chair of the Pentecostal
World Fellowship and formerchaplain and chair of chaplaincy
for the Olympic Games on sixoccasions.
(00:54):
In just over a century, thePentecostal Church has grown
from an obscure and uneducatedChristian community to the
largest Protestant movement inthe world.
Christian community to thelargest Protestant movement in
the world.
Its growth staggers theimagination.
Serving as the Canadian GeneralSuperintendent since 2008, dave
has endeared himself to manyaround the world.
(01:15):
His ability to connect with andwork alongside those of other
faiths is an inspiration andperhaps to some unexpected and
full disclosure.
I was raised in the PAOC, myfather was a senior leader and I
was ordained by this body,which is why I'm especially
pleased to share thisconversation with you today,
(01:44):
david Wells.
So good to have you here onEvangelical 360.
David Wells (01:47):
Great to be with you, Brian.
Love chatting with you, it'sgoing to be great.
Brian Stiller (01:52):
David as General Superintendent, which really
means Bishop in the PentecostalChurch community, head of Canada
.
It would be interesting for youto describe to us how this
movement came about over thelast century.
David Wells (02:10):
Brian, it's great studying, great to be part of a
movement that tracks in manyways back to the early 20th
century.
But even before that there wererenewal and revival movements
throughout the world.
It really was global.
And then it began to zero in onthe expressions of the Spirit
(02:30):
that spoke of what Jesus hadpromised about.
The outpouring of the Spiritwas being fulfilled at the turn
of the 20th century, again allover the globe, but especially
with some key points like AzusaStreet, toronto, hebden Mission
and over in Scandinavia, ofcourse, and other contexts.
And it was just this sense thatthe Spirit, as promised, was
(02:56):
being poured out in a fresh wayupon the life of the Church at
the beginning of the 20thcentury, and that's only
increased and grown over thelast century.
Brian Stiller (03:06):
It's interesting after 1900 years, when Jesus was
on the earth, this newunderstanding of the Spirit was
revealed to the church.
Why did it take so long, andwhat was going on at the
beginning of the 20th centurythat would give rise to this new
understanding at?
(03:28):
Yeah, you're a student ofchurch history.
I love reading you that.
You know the church has existedsince Jesus commissioned us,
when he was on the planet, youknow, and the church was
launched.
So I really respect churchhistory all the way through.
And one thing about churchhistory is there's clearly times
when the Spirit works upon thepeople of God in order to renew,
(03:50):
remind, liberate from when itwanders from the principal
things that Jesus said thechurch would be about.
So in the area of spiritualrenewal and outpouring of the
Spirit, you know there's pop-upsall over church history.
But it seems that, as you know,the early stages of
(04:12):
globalization took place wherethere was more cross-pollination
globally.
It's maybe not surprising thatat that same time, then, what
Jesus has promised about you'llreceive power when the Holy
Spirit comes upon you, andyou'll be my witnesses that
there was this whole new energyfrom the Spirit poured out on
(04:34):
the church to be these globalwitnesses to make sure that the
message went around the wholeglobe in a way that the previous
centuries it was renewal.
Here renewal related tounderstanding, justification by
faith, or renewal related toother dimensions of the good
news and of what is true fromJesus' life and ministry.
(04:58):
But as this globalization takesplace and as there's more and
more awareness of the Spiritbeing poured out on sons and
daughters on every tongue, tribe, nation, that that's pretty
simultaneous with where thewhole Pentecostal movement
starts to really take off andbecomes more and more a global
(05:18):
expression.
And what did this movement bring to the Church as
to the person and the work ofthe Spirit?
David Wells (05:41):
What do we know now about the Spirit that we didn't
words that were a steady streamof emphasis, as we read right
from the prophets, for instanceIsaiah, that picked up in Jesus'
call that you wait until youreceive power from on high so
(06:10):
that you can be these witnesses.
And they wait.
And so we celebrate whathappened on Pentecost and
celebrate the outpouring of theSpirit so that the church can be
the church.
And then they live it out.
You've got the ebbs and flowsof church history.
You've got the ebbs and flowsof spiritual renewal and then at
(06:32):
times, such a stridentinstitutionalization that you
wonder is there any liferemaining in the life of the
church?
And it carries.
You have to think globally.
So at some moments renewalstaking place in a very similar
manner to what we seeexperienced in the 20th and 21st
centuries, and other times it'svery dormant.
(06:53):
We needed Luther, you know.
We needed Calvin, we needed theother voices.
We needed what God's doingcurrently in the global church,
in the majority world church, toremind us.
And so classical Pentecostalismin the early 20th century.
We needed that renewal, weneeded that reminder of the
(07:14):
spirits poured out in doing usto do exactly what Jesus said,
so that you can go and be mywitnesses.
Brian Stiller (07:23):
Now, here in Canada, where you serve as
leader of the Pentecostal Church, numbers of church attendance
has diminished over the last fewyears.
What's the case with thePentecostal Church?
David Wells (07:35):
Well, the good news is, for at least our circle, is
that we've seen incrementalgrowth.
Of course, with COVID there wassome plateauing and we always
deal with those who indicatethat we are their church family,
sort of call it your orb, andthen within the orb is then
those who what's the averageattendance at the major
(07:59):
gathering of our differentchurches, our disciple-making
communities?
But there's been incrementalgrowth even since COVID and it's
a case of again, something'shappened in the spirit that's
awakened in the hearts of bothpeople, in the life of the
church following Jesus and inthe culture.
(08:22):
There's an awakening of hungerand there's a need and there's a
sense of there's got to besomething more.
And I think, just even in theselast few years, there's been a
convergence, even in Canadawhere people are asking the good
questions.
So right now we're seeingalmost record levels of
(08:42):
first-time responses to Jesus,record levels of water baptism
taking place.
That's now.
So I'm not saying that with atriumphalism or cockiness,
because there's a lot ofspiritual challenge and we have
our challenges, especially witha future orientation, but at the
(09:02):
moment then there's life.
Brian Stiller (09:06):
And at a time when secularization has become a
dominant theme in the West, inEurope, in North America, it's
almost surprising that thePentecostal message, which tends
to be more enthusiastic andbombastic than, say, your
mainline or your old-lineProtestants, it's surprising
(09:29):
that this is the place wherespiritual resurgence is
occurring.
David Wells (09:34):
Yeah, and I mean I always war a bit, of course,
against, as you do, against someof the stereotypical
understandings of a particulargroup, be they Pentecostals,
evangelicals or whatever.
But we're very passionate aboutwholehearted, whole-minded,
whole-life disciples of Jesus.
So wholehearted means yourspirit is engaged, You're
(09:58):
passionate, You're open to thework of the Spirit, you worship
the Lord in spirit and truth, so, but whole-minded means you,
you know, I got a brain, I'vegot a graduate degree, I care
about loving God with my mindand thinking things through and
observing the culture and beinga bit of a sociologist and a
missiologist, you know.
(10:19):
So it's not an either-or Jesusand back to the original Shema.
So it's not an either or Jesusand back to the original Shema.
You're not allowed to do thisdifferentiation almost, or try
to pick your favorite parcel,part of the parcel, and then say
, but I won't bother with thewhole spirited side of it, or I
won't bother with the whole lifeside of it.
And Pentecostals are actuallyfar better, and I give honor to
(10:42):
my previous generations ofpeople in the Pentecost Church.
We've actually been a lotbetter at full life than often
giving credit for it, because wecare to do justice and love,
mercy and walk humbly and beamong people and go to the least
reached and the most vulnerable.
That's a pattern, that's notjust a new discovery.
(11:02):
So I just think it's a case ofdealing with what Jesus called
us to be and what the Shema wasfirst about.
You know, we do it wholehearted, whole-minded and with our
whole lives.
And if that looks strange to asecular world, I don't think so
because, frankly, the secularworld got quite evangelistic
(11:24):
world.
I don't think so because,frankly, the secular world got
quite evangelistic and has beenpassionate about things.
And it's just the case of okay,what's true and what our values
are, and let's meet in thepublic square and have some
great conversations about that.
Brian Stiller (11:38):
How did you begin in ministry?
Where did all this start foryou?
David Wells (11:42):
Yeah, so I didn't know Jesus as a child.
I was one of those rare boomerkids that didn't go to a church.
My family didn't go to a church, and then my aunt and uncle
said this isn't right and tookus to Sunday school, and
happened to be Pentecostal.
I believe there was somesovereignty involved, but
anyways.
(12:03):
I believe there was somesovereignty involved, but
anyways.
So then, as a school kid I'mgetting integrated into a great
local church in Edmonton CentralTabernacle.
My pastor is the prince of allpastors, robert Tatinger.
So here I am as a younger guyjust starting to pick up on
models, and Sunday schoolteachers will lean in and say,
(12:23):
dave, I can really see God'scall in your life.
And so by 17, I was in Biblecollege and fortunately, the
Lord brought a great lady fromNew Brunswick to go to the same
Bible college and you know we'vebeen married almost 50 years
and away you go.
But it was very strongly, thesepositive influences, strongly,
these positive influences,positive models mixed with the
(12:45):
inner call of God that you knowI landed, starting as a
19-year-old youth pastor.
I mean, pity those kids back inthe day, but away we went.
Brian Stiller (13:02):
So, yeah, it's just this tracking of strong
models and great influence fromthe Lord.
What's been at the heart ofyour leadership, what's been the
model that has been central toyour ministry and to your
leadership?
David Wells (13:13):
Yeah, I would, and this got clarified for me
through the years.
I remember being at Cape Townin 2010 for Lausanne and, you
know, listening to a sessionthat kind of further solidified
it, and Tim Keller, you know,and his conversation about urban
(13:34):
.
But it touched on the greatrequirement and I realized that,
as I earlier described, I dothink I understand the great
command and its implications tomy life, but also my leadership
how do you lead people in lovingGod heart, soul, mind, strength
and loving your neighbor asyourself?
(13:54):
That session and others and Iwould have already had this as
seeds in my life or expressionsbut the great requirement gives
us clarity about how you loveyour neighbor as yourself.
You do justice, you love mercy,you walk humbly.
So I'm looking for that in thePentecostal community, the
evangelical community, theChristian community.
(14:17):
I'm looking for it in thispolarized age that we've lived
in.
You know, I was looking for itduring COVID, current situations
that we're facing globally.
I'm looking for leadership thatdoes justice, loves mercy,
walks humbly.
How are we doing, folks?
We've got some leadershipthat's the direct opposite of
(14:38):
that, but in the life of thechurch, that's our calling to do
the great requirement and then,empowered by the Spirit we go
and we fulfill the greatcommission.
You know we go and we makedisciplined followers of Jesus,
see them transformed by the goodnews so that they will love God
(14:59):
heart, soul, mind, strength,love their neighbors as
themselves, do justice, love,mercy, walk humbly and empowered
by the spirit, and you makedisciple, making communities and
you work with leaders to thinkthat through.
How do we see a spiritualvitality that will really have
churches that are not same old,same old just going through the
(15:21):
motion, but they're actuallyalive in spirit, they're
actually alive in mission,they're actually engaged with
the community.
You know they're fulfillingthose greats and you know that's
in my leadership what I'vetried to maintain as the center
and my picture of the center.
So a center set identity ratherthan fixed set.
(15:43):
So we're not a franchiseanymore.
When I grew up as a kid andwhere I described we had all the
programs flow out of Toronto,you know we all knew that if you
were a PLC church you had thiscurriculum and that wasn't all
bad.
But those aren't the daysanymore.
What I'm asking of our churchesis like a strong centrifugal
(16:06):
force of living out these mainthings, these main things, and
then express it in your diverseways in the urban context as
compared to rural Saskatchewanas compared to out on the East
Coast.
You know I expect a lot ofdiversity, to be quite honest.
Brian Stiller (16:23):
So denominationalism, is it died,
or is it just being reformatted?
David Wells (16:29):
It's being reformatted.
It's being reformatted to canyou see your leaders, your
churches, your people aligned tomain things that you represent,
both currently but also tied toyou know your history and, in
our case, some Pentecostalhistory and so on, but they
(16:51):
expect broader than that.
They don't expect to be put ina little box.
Now some people and I respectthe, you know my ecumenical
involvements respect theliturgical church.
I was with a colleague that I'mguiding through a graduate
program right now, who's thehead of the Evangelical Orthodox
Church.
(17:11):
Now, think about thatcombination.
So, so there you go, you know.
So God's doing a lot of things,but they have some distinctions
.
There's the liturgical worshipas compared to free form and so
on, and so you know, I thinkyou've got to fellowship, a
denominational group, whateverYou've got to have a center set
about, this is the nuclear core.
(17:32):
Whatever you've got to have acenter set about, this is the
nuclear core.
This is what draws people toparticipate, whether in local
churches or an internationalmission about who we are, but
it's not in competition to therest of the body of Christ.
Brian Stiller (17:45):
That begs the question.
Evangelicals are competitive.
We divide a great deal.
How do we respond to the issueof unity?
And Jesus calls, and in hisprayer to the Father he said
they will know us by our unity.
(18:07):
Unity is an evangelisticmessage.
In other words, yeah.
David Wells (18:12):
So I think the different components of the body
of Christ need to know whatplatform are they providing for
people to gather on, toparticipate in, to be part of
all that God's desiring to do so?
Of course I've been joyfullyinvolved over the years with the
evangelical community and chairof EFC and so on, and that was
(18:34):
no problem at all because we'reevangelically aligned.
But we also know there's abroader body of Christ in Canada
and globally that areevangelically aligned, like my
evangelical Orthodox friend.
So I introduced him to the EFCin our last meetings, you know,
because there's an evangelicalalignment about the call to.
You know the quadrangle and thefour dimensions of the
(18:58):
expression of God's work inpeople's lives and the call to
diversion, transit.
And I do know the people that inthe broader expression of
Christianity are notevangelically aligned and it
usually leads to distinctionsabout their Christology.
It leads to distinctions aboutsome ethical questions and so on
(19:22):
.
And that doesn't mean Idisrespect or even lose
friendship.
It's just I know we're notevangelically aligned around
Jesus as the one and only.
And you know the message ofconversion is compared to
neo-universalism which isrampant in so many contexts
(19:42):
today.
So that's not me, that's not myplatform.
My platform is I'mevangelically aligned.
In Pentecostal we believe in theSpirit's work now, spirit
empowerment, power to bewitnesses.
So if you're on that platformand there's broader again,
communities, power 21 and othersthat I'm engaged with, even
(20:04):
globally and does that mean Iagree hook, line and sinker with
every expression of thePentecostal Charismatic Church?
No, I've got some tough days,but I choose respect again and I
choose to see where we'realigned and what platforms we
(20:24):
share, and as long as we're notverging onto the heretical and
falling off the table, if Icould put it that way.
So there's some in the.
I put it this way, even in thePentecostal world there's
historically.
We've had the classicalPentecostals, then you've got
the neo-Pentecostals and othercharismatic movements and now
(20:46):
the global expressions.
You know Well some of themstretch me pretty far.
To be quite honest, whatbecomes their principle?
You know, christian nationalismwithin a charismatic context
would stretch me a little bitmore than I'm personally going
to go or platform we're going toprovide.
But still I'll respect peopleas brothers and sisters in
(21:06):
Christ and be on mission withthem.
Sometimes you get stretched.
Brian Stiller (21:13):
Let me change subjects here for a moment.
You've had a unique role in theglobal Olympic movement as a
chaplain.
Now it doesn't strike me that aperson who is Pentecostal and
very evangelical would fitnaturally into that kind of
activity or role.
(21:33):
Describe what that has meant toyou and how it came about.
David Wells (21:39):
Well, my wife would say, if you, you know, if two
kids are playing in a puddle andyou call it sports, they would
probably watch it.
So first of all, there's ahistorical bias to sports.
You know, I grew up playinghockey in Edmonton when I was
five years old.
Right, I mean, go, oilers, go.
So you know it's.
You know I like sports and it'sthe context that I made
(22:00):
relationships and you gotburdened for some of the parts
of the sports world that hadlittle or no Christian influence
or impact, that became aware ofthat.
Tie that into a global sportschaplaincy movement where
there's a lot of great mentorsand people that had established
relationships with keyorganizers and so on.
But then there cameopportunities, including, for
(22:23):
instance, I'm serving in BritishColumbia and the Winter
Olympics are coming to Vancouver.
I've had enough experience bythen to know that you've got to
build trust with the organizingcommittee in a genuine way.
You really want the games to bea success, but part of it is
they got to pull off amulti-faith center and, without
(22:44):
exception, every time I walkedinto an organizing committee's
office they almost didn'trealize they had to do it, until
they get in their books andrealize that's part of the bid.
And then you say who here knowshow to do that?
Well, they don't.
So you come with your vision,your burden and you develop an
(23:06):
expertise over time about how tohave a multi-faith center.
So you've got to know how torelate to different groups of
faith with respect, that theyactually know that you're going
to help them meet the bestpractices related to a
multi-faith center, just like wewould do in chaplaincy at a
(23:27):
university or a hospital orserving a police force or so on.
In the armed forces there'sbest practices about how to
develop a multi-faith offering.
So I just became well-versed inthat and experienced in that
and I witnessed the good, badand the ugly of where things can
go and then became a resourceto organizers to say this can be
(23:51):
done and it can be done rightand you will not have a faith
war in your village.
You will have people singingthe praises of the faith
community that came to serve andright inside of this athlete's
village.
So we built best practices.
I've written the manual on itand the way we go, and then
we've had very important timesand good experiences and I've
(24:16):
made a lot of friends in otherfaith groups, genuine colleagues
and friends To do that.
Well, you've got to know whereyou disagree, you agree to
disagree.
You respect one another.
But no, my view of personallife with God, through Christ,
is not shared with my Hinducolleague or my Muslim colleague
(24:37):
.
But boy, I got best friends inthose communities that you
respect.
But we land differently aboutwhat we're then offering day to
day, week to week.
But in the athlete's village wecan still say to athletes OK, if
you're a Muslim athlete, we'vegot an offering for you.
You come for daily burners,we'll have an imam ready to go,
(24:58):
and sometimes the games haveoccurred during Ramadan.
Talk about a workout, you knowmaking sure that was prepared.
So it is about relationship.
It's about respect, it's aboutbest practices.
It's about respect.
It's about best practices, it'searning trust and when that's
done correctly, people areserved and you're not called
(25:20):
upon to deny the things that areclosest to your heart when it
comes to faith and your beliefs.
They're just an offering that'sgiven as part of those events.
So it was important.
We were there, like some willremember, the Vancouver Olympics
very first day that games wereopening up, the death of an
(25:41):
athlete.
Well, the vice president of thegames comes to me and said Dave
, if we've ever needed you, weneed you now because you're
there.
You're on the grounds and rightaway, within an hour and a half
, I could have a chaplain inWhistler who's speaking in
Russian to talk to the Georgiancoach and help him through his
grief of losing his athlete, whoalso happened to be a relative
(26:04):
of his.
And then we ran memorial roomsthroughout the games and
hundreds and hundreds ofathletes and volunteers came and
cried and signed a book thatwent back across to the family
of the athlete in Georgia.
So I have those memoriesbecause it was done right.
Brian Stiller (26:26):
David, you have served as chair of the
Evangelical Fellowship of Canadaand other global evangelical
communities.
Over the last few years there'sbeen a politicization of the
name evangelical and I'mwondering do you see that as a
name that's worth saving andpreserving and advancing?
David Wells (26:46):
Two prongs, I think .
For those who this platformpicture I used and evangelically
aligned.
I think we have to have claritythat there is a good place to
understand ourselves asevangelicals and evangelically
aligned and what it means tokeep honoring that message of
Christ.
To keep honoring that messageof Christ From off of that
platform, how we reflectourselves to the community, how
(27:12):
we brand ourselves, titleourselves.
We can certainly look atvariations on a theme.
I'm probably part of theEvangelical Fellowship of Canada
to this day and have colleagueson the world of Evangelical
Alliance.
What would be the new branding?
(27:32):
There have been manyconversations about that.
But yet there can beexpressions off of that platform
that aren't necessarily labeledper se as evangelical or
whatever, and so people usevariations on a theme, just like
Pentecostals do.
There are very few of my localchurches per se have Pentecostal
(27:53):
in the branding.
And yet you'll walk in andyou'll sense the Spirit at work
and you'll worship with theglobal community in a
Pentecostal way, you know.
So do I get nauseous about that?
Well, not if their leadersstill remain aligned with our
mission and, you know, are ingood relationship and so on.
So is that the same for thebroader evangelical table moving
(28:18):
forward.
Well, I guess we'll keepprocessing that, won't we?
Brian Stiller (28:22):
David, you've had a track record of collaboration
with others.
David, you've had a trackrecord of collaboration with
others.
What is there within your?
David Wells (28:48):
Pentecostal framework of theology and
experience.
That would give you an opennessto honestly consider others as
being legitimate and of value,which gives you this spirit of
collaboration.
The picture I go back to aboutmean things and what's at the
core, and if I find somebody,that what's at the core, that's
who they are.
They're a follower of Jesus.
They honor God's word.
They love God, heart, soul,mind and strength.
Word they love God, heart, soul, mind and strength.
(29:12):
You start there and you buildas far as.
What table are we talking about?
What level do we have to be?
Are you wanting to come andaffiliate with the POC?
Well, there's more details tothat alignment than oh.
You're a friend from ahistorically neo-charismatic
movement that loves Jesus andhas different views on renewal
(29:32):
or certain ways.
The Spirit works Well.
We've got a lot we can agree on, a lot of contexts we can be in
together.
Sometimes you'll go off to yourfavorite speaker and events and
I probably won't, you know, andvice versa, and I think you
know.
The Spirit's poured out on sonsand daughters.
The Spirit's poured out onevery tongue, tribe, nation, and
(29:55):
that's my default I start with.
I'm connected at the core withthis person at the deepest
levels of Spirit, of what Christhas done in our lives, about
our honoring of God andworshipers.
We live in truth, secondary andtertiary truth, not always.
(30:18):
Okay.
Well, let's agree to disagree.
I may not campaign for the samecandidate in a Canadian
election that you will, but youknow it's like we have to be
able to agree to disagree inorder to have a good
relationship as well.
Some of us have been marriedfor quite a few years and we
(30:39):
totally understand that think,maybe more so now than ever,
brian.
I've also learned how toapologize and repent and
sometimes be a symbolic personin that realm and you know, to
our indigenous peoples and leadthe PLC to engage about our
historic relationship with ourindigenous leaders and come to a
(31:02):
conference with a mutual letterof apology that our indigenous
people also wanted to sign backto the non-Indigenous.
Brian Stiller (31:11):
David, I'll never forget the moment in Albania
when you got up and made aconfession to the more
liturgical denominations.
As a member of yourdenomination in Canada, I was
(31:38):
singularly proud of both yourcourage and your evident skill
in doing it and saying it theway you did.
But as Bishop of Canada, headof the Pentecostal churches, is
there a lack of pastoralcandidates?
How is the church doing inCanada?
David Wells (31:49):
Well, we're seeing this incremental growth, like I
said, in our orb and God's atwork in fresh ways, which we're
celebrating.
But I also symbolize somebodyused the you know, the imagery
of you know, this big bulgeworking its way through right.
Coming up.
Brian Stiller (32:10):
You know the pig in the python.
David Wells (32:12):
There you go, you've got the exact phraseology
.
So you know, those of us whoare builders and boomers we're
pretty well moving through, youknow, and that does leave a
demographic just straightnumbers gap.
You know that has to be filled.
It's interesting as that isbeing responded to expectations
(32:33):
about official ministry and howthe tracks you follow they're
all adjusting, they're allmoving.
So we're seeing that we don'tjust develop young women and men
through their four-yearprograms coming through the
colleges that's still part ofour development but you also
have a good number of peoplesecond career or people from
(32:55):
within the life of the churchthat are making commitments to
you know, train for ministry andbecome credentialed, and that's
as strong a track as the trackthat would come up through full
year development.
And then, of course, thank Godfor the global church and those
(33:16):
that have come to join us andthe large growth factor there
and those who are participatingwith us, you know, as
credentialed leaders and justpeople in the life of the church
.
So that's a strong part ofespecially a Pentecostal
constituency where so much ishappening globally, that gets
reflected back into the life ofthe Canadian church, thank God,
(33:39):
you know, and it's not justabout numbers, it's just about
the life, the vitality, themission, and so those factors
become things you're all takinginto account and yet we've
really prioritized.
Even our strategic vision groupof our general executive has
been about reaching, disciplingand developing the leadership of
(34:01):
children, youth and youngadults, and I'm going to our
general executive with a wholeand I'm going to our general
executive with a wholecontinuing emphasis on that, but
with resources mentorshiponeplatform that is encouraging
younger men and women in theircalling.
We've published gift books forall our constituency about.
(34:29):
We the Called, especiallyoriented to younger leaders,
both Now whether they want toactually end up in the very type
of role that Dave Wells haslived out the last five decades.
That could be a good questionto ask.
But you know there's a futureorientation to this calling and
we want to facilitate it, buildplatforms and then tell them
rise and go way beyond anythingwe've ever seen.
Brian Stiller (34:48):
So it is dominating, but there's hope,
there's good signs so forsomebody there out there who's
who's interested, wonderingwhether they have a role, what
path might they take towardsconsidering a call to ministry,
pastoral ministry or some otherkind of missional activity?
David Wells (35:10):
So in our context, a lot of people are initiating
that right through their localchurches, talking to their
pastor and, like I wasindicating, some of the pastors
are just approaching theirdistricts and saying I've got
this person, I got a calling.
Well then, usually they'lloften stay, remained involved in
the life of the church but besupplemented in their
(35:31):
theological training and so on.
They'll be able to draw off ofdifferent resources or different
institutions even whilebeginning that track.
Others will be pointed towardsour districts especially and
help to find how to plug in andget on the track to ordained
ministry or credentialedministry, you know.
(35:54):
So it's multifaceted again, butthe main pipeline is through
the local church and thenconnecting with our districts.
And if our offices approach, wefind the right pipeline for
them to connect with and makesure they can track with us.
Some of that is theinternational interest to align
(36:15):
with us.
But yeah, it's a matter ofsaying, man, I'm sensing a
stirring and calling in my life.
We've got our younger leadersalways on the lookout for those
that are in their youth, youngadult ministries that are saying
, boy, I'm sensing like God'scalling me to something.
Well, how are they going tofacilitate that and providing
(36:35):
even events that point young menand young women towards getting
equipped for the calling that'son their life.
Brian Stiller (36:43):
After five decades in ministry, what would
you say to a younger David Wellstoday?
David Wells (36:48):
Okay, that's kind of bizarre, but I would say you
made some really smart decisionsalong the way.
You listened to the rightpeople and you didn't listen to
the wrong people.
There were points of dividethat it could have easily ruined
my life and calling what wasthe basis on which you chose one
(37:10):
over the other points?
of divide that it could haveeasily ruined my life and
calling.
What was the basis on which youchose one over the other?
Were they about main things?
Were they honoring the core ofwhat we were called to be, as
far as in the life of the churchand in my own personal calling?
And you know, people come alongand they'll derail you, they'll
make you about all about thisor all about that, and so it's a
(37:31):
matter of saying yes to theright things and the right
people.
But I also would want toreiterate, and, david, say no to
, you know, things that willderail you, derail your calling
or get you way off on asidetrack that's not going to
really amount to anything.
And be about those main thingsand always do it alongside of
(37:54):
the people God puts into yourlife from within the body of
Christ, and enjoy the diversityof that.
Like, don't get in a little box, a little franchise, and say
this is the only influences thatare going to be in my life.
I went from being questionedabout my loyalty to the POC in
the 1990s to being the generalsuperintendent and, first of all
(38:17):
, the district superintendent in2001.
So when people were still doingthe franchise model and I
looked like I had broaderrelationships and broader
influences.
So I would say to the youngDave Wells again you know, be
open to the diversity that's inthe body of Christ and let God
(38:38):
do what he wants to do in yourlife and calling through some
unexpected relationships.
Brian Stiller (38:45):
David Wells, thank you for joining us on
Evangelical 360 today.
David Wells (38:49):
Great to be with you, Brian.
Thank you.
Brian Stiller (38:52):
Thank you, david, for joining us today and for
inspiring us to reach beyond ourown familiar traditions and
tribes, and thank you for beinga part of the podcast.
Be sure to share this episode,use hashtag Evangelical360 and
join the conversation on YouTube.
If you'd like to learn moreabout today's guest, be sure to
(39:16):
check the show notes for linksand info, and if you haven't
already received my free e-bookand newsletter, just go to
brianstillercom.
Thanks again.
Until next time, don't miss thenext interview.
Be sure to subscribe toEvangelical 360 on YouTube.
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm your host, brian Stiller,and I'm pleased to share with
you another conversation withleaders, changemakers and
influencers impacting Christianlife around the world.
We'd love for you to be a partof the podcast by sharing this
(00:34):
episode.
Use hashtag Evangelical360 andjoin the conversation on YouTube
in the comments below.
My guest today is the ReverendDr David Wells, General
Superintendent of thePentecostal Assemblies of Canada
.
Dr David Wells, generalSuperintendent of the
Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada, vice Chair of the Pentecostal
World Fellowship and formerchaplain and chair of chaplaincy
for the Olympic Games on sixoccasions.
(00:54):
In just over a century, thePentecostal Church has grown
from an obscure and uneducatedChristian community to the
largest Protestant movement inthe world.
Christian community to thelargest Protestant movement in
the world.
Its growth staggers theimagination.
Serving as the Canadian GeneralSuperintendent since 2008, dave
has endeared himself to manyaround the world.
(01:15):
His ability to connect with andwork alongside those of other
faiths is an inspiration andperhaps to some unexpected and
full disclosure.
I was raised in the PAOC, myfather was a senior leader and I
was ordained by this body,which is why I'm especially
pleased to share thisconversation with you today,
(01:44):
david Wells.
So good to have you here onEvangelical 360.
David Wells (01:47):
Great to be with you, Brian.
Love chatting with you, it'sgoing to be great.
Brian Stiller (01:52):
David as General Superintendent, which really
means Bishop in the PentecostalChurch community, head of Canada
.
It would be interesting for youto describe to us how this
movement came about over thelast century.
David Wells (02:10):
Brian, it's great studying, great to be part of a
movement that tracks in manyways back to the early 20th
century.
But even before that there wererenewal and revival movements
throughout the world.
It really was global.
And then it began to zero in onthe expressions of the Spirit
(02:30):
that spoke of what Jesus hadpromised about.
The outpouring of the Spiritwas being fulfilled at the turn
of the 20th century, again allover the globe, but especially
with some key points like AzusaStreet, toronto, hebden Mission
and over in Scandinavia, ofcourse, and other contexts.
And it was just this sense thatthe Spirit, as promised, was
(02:56):
being poured out in a fresh wayupon the life of the Church at
the beginning of the 20thcentury, and that's only
increased and grown over thelast century.
Brian Stiller (03:06):
It's interesting after 1900 years, when Jesus was
on the earth, this newunderstanding of the Spirit was
revealed to the church.
Why did it take so long, andwhat was going on at the
beginning of the 20th centurythat would give rise to this new
understanding at?
(03:28):
Yeah, you're a student ofchurch history.
I love reading you that.
You know the church has existedsince Jesus commissioned us,
when he was on the planet, youknow, and the church was
launched.
So I really respect churchhistory all the way through.
And one thing about churchhistory is there's clearly times
when the Spirit works upon thepeople of God in order to renew,
(03:50):
remind, liberate from when itwanders from the principal
things that Jesus said thechurch would be about.
So in the area of spiritualrenewal and outpouring of the
Spirit, you know there's pop-upsall over church history.
But it seems that, as you know,the early stages of
(04:12):
globalization took place wherethere was more cross-pollination
globally.
It's maybe not surprising thatat that same time, then, what
Jesus has promised about you'llreceive power when the Holy
Spirit comes upon you, andyou'll be my witnesses that
there was this whole new energyfrom the Spirit poured out on
(04:34):
the church to be these globalwitnesses to make sure that the
message went around the wholeglobe in a way that the previous
centuries it was renewal.
Here renewal related tounderstanding, justification by
faith, or renewal related toother dimensions of the good
news and of what is true fromJesus' life and ministry.
(04:58):
But as this globalization takesplace and as there's more and
more awareness of the Spiritbeing poured out on sons and
daughters on every tongue, tribe, nation, that that's pretty
simultaneous with where thewhole Pentecostal movement
starts to really take off andbecomes more and more a global
(05:18):
expression.
And what did this movement bring to the Church as
to the person and the work ofthe Spirit?
David Wells (05:41):
What do we know now about the Spirit that we didn't
words that were a steady streamof emphasis, as we read right
from the prophets, for instanceIsaiah, that picked up in Jesus'
call that you wait until youreceive power from on high so
(06:10):
that you can be these witnesses.
And they wait.
And so we celebrate whathappened on Pentecost and
celebrate the outpouring of theSpirit so that the church can be
the church.
And then they live it out.
You've got the ebbs and flowsof church history.
You've got the ebbs and flowsof spiritual renewal and then at
(06:32):
times, such a stridentinstitutionalization that you
wonder is there any liferemaining in the life of the
church?
And it carries.
You have to think globally.
So at some moments renewalstaking place in a very similar
manner to what we seeexperienced in the 20th and 21st
centuries, and other times it'svery dormant.
(06:53):
We needed Luther, you know.
We needed Calvin, we needed theother voices.
We needed what God's doingcurrently in the global church,
in the majority world church, toremind us.
And so classical Pentecostalismin the early 20th century.
We needed that renewal, weneeded that reminder of the
(07:14):
spirits poured out in doing usto do exactly what Jesus said,
so that you can go and be mywitnesses.
Brian Stiller (07:23):
Now, here in Canada, where you serve as
leader of the Pentecostal Church, numbers of church attendance
has diminished over the last fewyears.
What's the case with thePentecostal Church?
David Wells (07:35):
Well, the good news is, for at least our circle, is
that we've seen incrementalgrowth.
Of course, with COVID there wassome plateauing and we always
deal with those who indicatethat we are their church family,
sort of call it your orb, andthen within the orb is then
those who what's the averageattendance at the major
(07:59):
gathering of our differentchurches, our disciple-making
communities?
But there's been incrementalgrowth even since COVID and it's
a case of again, something'shappened in the spirit that's
awakened in the hearts of bothpeople, in the life of the
church following Jesus and inthe culture.
(08:22):
There's an awakening of hungerand there's a need and there's a
sense of there's got to besomething more.
And I think, just even in theselast few years, there's been a
convergence, even in Canadawhere people are asking the good
questions.
So right now we're seeingalmost record levels of
(08:42):
first-time responses to Jesus,record levels of water baptism
taking place.
That's now.
So I'm not saying that with atriumphalism or cockiness,
because there's a lot ofspiritual challenge and we have
our challenges, especially witha future orientation, but at the
(09:02):
moment then there's life.
Brian Stiller (09:06):
And at a time when secularization has become a
dominant theme in the West, inEurope, in North America, it's
almost surprising that thePentecostal message, which tends
to be more enthusiastic andbombastic than, say, your
mainline or your old-lineProtestants, it's surprising
(09:29):
that this is the place wherespiritual resurgence is
occurring.
David Wells (09:34):
Yeah, and I mean I always war a bit, of course,
against, as you do, against someof the stereotypical
understandings of a particulargroup, be they Pentecostals,
evangelicals or whatever.
But we're very passionate aboutwholehearted, whole-minded,
whole-life disciples of Jesus.
So wholehearted means yourspirit is engaged, You're
(09:58):
passionate, You're open to thework of the Spirit, you worship
the Lord in spirit and truth, so, but whole-minded means you,
you know, I got a brain, I'vegot a graduate degree, I care
about loving God with my mindand thinking things through and
observing the culture and beinga bit of a sociologist and a
missiologist, you know.
(10:19):
So it's not an either-or Jesusand back to the original Shema.
So it's not an either or Jesusand back to the original Shema.
You're not allowed to do thisdifferentiation almost, or try
to pick your favorite parcel,part of the parcel, and then say
, but I won't bother with thewhole spirited side of it, or I
won't bother with the whole lifeside of it.
And Pentecostals are actuallyfar better, and I give honor to
(10:42):
my previous generations ofpeople in the Pentecost Church.
We've actually been a lotbetter at full life than often
giving credit for it, because wecare to do justice and love,
mercy and walk humbly and beamong people and go to the least
reached and the most vulnerable.
That's a pattern, that's notjust a new discovery.
(11:02):
So I just think it's a case ofdealing with what Jesus called
us to be and what the Shema wasfirst about.
You know, we do it wholehearted, whole-minded and with our
whole lives.
And if that looks strange to asecular world, I don't think so
because, frankly, the secularworld got quite evangelistic
(11:24):
world.
I don't think so because,frankly, the secular world got
quite evangelistic and has beenpassionate about things.
And it's just the case of okay,what's true and what our values
are, and let's meet in thepublic square and have some
great conversations about that.
Brian Stiller (11:38):
How did you begin in ministry?
Where did all this start foryou?
David Wells (11:42):
Yeah, so I didn't know Jesus as a child.
I was one of those rare boomerkids that didn't go to a church.
My family didn't go to a church, and then my aunt and uncle
said this isn't right and tookus to Sunday school, and
happened to be Pentecostal.
I believe there was somesovereignty involved, but
anyways.
(12:03):
I believe there was somesovereignty involved, but
anyways.
So then, as a school kid I'mgetting integrated into a great
local church in Edmonton CentralTabernacle.
My pastor is the prince of allpastors, robert Tatinger.
So here I am as a younger guyjust starting to pick up on
models, and Sunday schoolteachers will lean in and say,
(12:23):
dave, I can really see God'scall in your life.
And so by 17, I was in Biblecollege and fortunately, the
Lord brought a great lady fromNew Brunswick to go to the same
Bible college and you know we'vebeen married almost 50 years
and away you go.
But it was very strongly, thesepositive influences, strongly,
these positive influences,positive models mixed with the
(12:45):
inner call of God that you knowI landed, starting as a
19-year-old youth pastor.
I mean, pity those kids back inthe day, but away we went.
Brian Stiller (13:02):
So, yeah, it's just this tracking of strong
models and great influence fromthe Lord.
What's been at the heart ofyour leadership, what's been the
model that has been central toyour ministry and to your
leadership?
David Wells (13:13):
Yeah, I would, and this got clarified for me
through the years.
I remember being at Cape Townin 2010 for Lausanne and, you
know, listening to a sessionthat kind of further solidified
it, and Tim Keller, you know,and his conversation about urban
(13:34):
.
But it touched on the greatrequirement and I realized that,
as I earlier described, I dothink I understand the great
command and its implications tomy life, but also my leadership
how do you lead people in lovingGod heart, soul, mind, strength
and loving your neighbor asyourself?
(13:54):
That session and others and Iwould have already had this as
seeds in my life or expressionsbut the great requirement gives
us clarity about how you loveyour neighbor as yourself.
You do justice, you love mercy,you walk humbly.
So I'm looking for that in thePentecostal community, the
evangelical community, theChristian community.
(14:17):
I'm looking for it in thispolarized age that we've lived
in.
You know, I was looking for itduring COVID, current situations
that we're facing globally.
I'm looking for leadership thatdoes justice, loves mercy,
walks humbly.
How are we doing, folks?
We've got some leadershipthat's the direct opposite of
(14:38):
that, but in the life of thechurch, that's our calling to do
the great requirement and then,empowered by the Spirit we go
and we fulfill the greatcommission.
You know we go and we makedisciplined followers of Jesus,
see them transformed by the goodnews so that they will love God
(14:59):
heart, soul, mind, strength,love their neighbors as
themselves, do justice, love,mercy, walk humbly and empowered
by the spirit, and you makedisciple, making communities and
you work with leaders to thinkthat through.
How do we see a spiritualvitality that will really have
churches that are not same old,same old just going through the
(15:21):
motion, but they're actuallyalive in spirit, they're
actually alive in mission,they're actually engaged with
the community.
You know they're fulfillingthose greats and you know that's
in my leadership what I'vetried to maintain as the center
and my picture of the center.
So a center set identity ratherthan fixed set.
(15:43):
So we're not a franchiseanymore.
When I grew up as a kid andwhere I described we had all the
programs flow out of Toronto,you know we all knew that if you
were a PLC church you had thiscurriculum and that wasn't all
bad.
But those aren't the daysanymore.
What I'm asking of our churchesis like a strong centrifugal
(16:06):
force of living out these mainthings, these main things, and
then express it in your diverseways in the urban context as
compared to rural Saskatchewanas compared to out on the East
Coast.
You know I expect a lot ofdiversity, to be quite honest.
Brian Stiller (16:23):
So denominationalism, is it died,
or is it just being reformatted?
David Wells (16:29):
It's being reformatted.
It's being reformatted to canyou see your leaders, your
churches, your people aligned tomain things that you represent,
both currently but also tied toyou know your history and, in
our case, some Pentecostalhistory and so on, but they
(16:51):
expect broader than that.
They don't expect to be put ina little box.
Now some people and I respectthe, you know my ecumenical
involvements respect theliturgical church.
I was with a colleague that I'mguiding through a graduate
program right now, who's thehead of the Evangelical Orthodox
Church.
(17:11):
Now, think about thatcombination.
So, so there you go, you know.
So God's doing a lot of things,but they have some distinctions
.
There's the liturgical worshipas compared to free form and so
on, and so you know, I thinkyou've got to fellowship, a
denominational group, whateverYou've got to have a center set
about, this is the nuclear core.
(17:32):
Whatever you've got to have acenter set about, this is the
nuclear core.
This is what draws people toparticipate, whether in local
churches or an internationalmission about who we are, but
it's not in competition to therest of the body of Christ.
Brian Stiller (17:45):
That begs the question.
Evangelicals are competitive.
We divide a great deal.
How do we respond to the issueof unity?
And Jesus calls, and in hisprayer to the Father he said
they will know us by our unity.
(18:07):
Unity is an evangelisticmessage.
In other words, yeah.
David Wells (18:12):
So I think the different components of the body
of Christ need to know whatplatform are they providing for
people to gather on, toparticipate in, to be part of
all that God's desiring to do so?
Of course I've been joyfullyinvolved over the years with the
evangelical community and chairof EFC and so on, and that was
(18:34):
no problem at all because we'reevangelically aligned.
But we also know there's abroader body of Christ in Canada
and globally that areevangelically aligned, like my
evangelical Orthodox friend.
So I introduced him to the EFCin our last meetings, you know,
because there's an evangelicalalignment about the call to.
You know the quadrangle and thefour dimensions of the
(18:58):
expression of God's work inpeople's lives and the call to
diversion, transit.
And I do know the people that inthe broader expression of
Christianity are notevangelically aligned and it
usually leads to distinctionsabout their Christology.
It leads to distinctions aboutsome ethical questions and so on
(19:22):
.
And that doesn't mean Idisrespect or even lose
friendship.
It's just I know we're notevangelically aligned around
Jesus as the one and only.
And you know the message ofconversion is compared to
neo-universalism which isrampant in so many contexts
(19:42):
today.
So that's not me, that's not myplatform.
My platform is I'mevangelically aligned.
In Pentecostal we believe in theSpirit's work now, spirit
empowerment, power to bewitnesses.
So if you're on that platformand there's broader again,
communities, power 21 and othersthat I'm engaged with, even
(20:04):
globally and does that mean Iagree hook, line and sinker with
every expression of thePentecostal Charismatic Church?
No, I've got some tough days,but I choose respect again and I
choose to see where we'realigned and what platforms we
(20:24):
share, and as long as we're notverging onto the heretical and
falling off the table, if Icould put it that way.
So there's some in the.
I put it this way, even in thePentecostal world there's
historically.
We've had the classicalPentecostals, then you've got
the neo-Pentecostals and othercharismatic movements and now
(20:46):
the global expressions.
You know Well some of themstretch me pretty far.
To be quite honest, whatbecomes their principle?
You know, christian nationalismwithin a charismatic context
would stretch me a little bitmore than I'm personally going
to go or platform we're going toprovide.
But still I'll respect peopleas brothers and sisters in
(21:06):
Christ and be on mission withthem.
Sometimes you get stretched.
Brian Stiller (21:13):
Let me change subjects here for a moment.
You've had a unique role in theglobal Olympic movement as a
chaplain.
Now it doesn't strike me that aperson who is Pentecostal and
very evangelical would fitnaturally into that kind of
activity or role.
(21:33):
Describe what that has meant toyou and how it came about.
David Wells (21:39):
Well, my wife would say, if you, you know, if two
kids are playing in a puddle andyou call it sports, they would
probably watch it.
So first of all, there's ahistorical bias to sports.
You know, I grew up playinghockey in Edmonton when I was
five years old.
Right, I mean, go, oilers, go.
So you know it's.
You know I like sports and it'sthe context that I made
(22:00):
relationships and you gotburdened for some of the parts
of the sports world that hadlittle or no Christian influence
or impact, that became aware ofthat.
Tie that into a global sportschaplaincy movement where
there's a lot of great mentorsand people that had established
relationships with keyorganizers and so on.
But then there cameopportunities, including, for
(22:23):
instance, I'm serving in BritishColumbia and the Winter
Olympics are coming to Vancouver.
I've had enough experience bythen to know that you've got to
build trust with the organizingcommittee in a genuine way.
You really want the games to bea success, but part of it is
they got to pull off amulti-faith center and, without
(22:44):
exception, every time I walkedinto an organizing committee's
office they almost didn'trealize they had to do it, until
they get in their books andrealize that's part of the bid.
And then you say who here knowshow to do that?
Well, they don't.
So you come with your vision,your burden and you develop an
(23:06):
expertise over time about how tohave a multi-faith center.
So you've got to know how torelate to different groups of
faith with respect, that theyactually know that you're going
to help them meet the bestpractices related to a
multi-faith center, just like wewould do in chaplaincy at a
(23:27):
university or a hospital orserving a police force or so on.
In the armed forces there'sbest practices about how to
develop a multi-faith offering.
So I just became well-versed inthat and experienced in that
and I witnessed the good, badand the ugly of where things can
go and then became a resourceto organizers to say this can be
(23:51):
done and it can be done rightand you will not have a faith
war in your village.
You will have people singingthe praises of the faith
community that came to serve andright inside of this athlete's
village.
So we built best practices.
I've written the manual on itand the way we go, and then
we've had very important timesand good experiences and I've
(24:16):
made a lot of friends in otherfaith groups, genuine colleagues
and friends To do that.
Well, you've got to know whereyou disagree, you agree to
disagree.
You respect one another.
But no, my view of personallife with God, through Christ,
is not shared with my Hinducolleague or my Muslim colleague
(24:37):
.
But boy, I got best friends inthose communities that you
respect.
But we land differently aboutwhat we're then offering day to
day, week to week.
But in the athlete's village wecan still say to athletes OK, if
you're a Muslim athlete, we'vegot an offering for you.
You come for daily burners,we'll have an imam ready to go,
(24:58):
and sometimes the games haveoccurred during Ramadan.
Talk about a workout, you knowmaking sure that was prepared.
So it is about relationship.
It's about respect, it's aboutbest practices.
It's about respect.
It's about best practices, it'searning trust and when that's
done correctly, people areserved and you're not called
(25:20):
upon to deny the things that areclosest to your heart when it
comes to faith and your beliefs.
They're just an offering that'sgiven as part of those events.
So it was important.
We were there, like some willremember, the Vancouver Olympics
very first day that games wereopening up, the death of an
(25:41):
athlete.
Well, the vice president of thegames comes to me and said Dave
, if we've ever needed you, weneed you now because you're
there.
You're on the grounds and rightaway, within an hour and a half
, I could have a chaplain inWhistler who's speaking in
Russian to talk to the Georgiancoach and help him through his
grief of losing his athlete, whoalso happened to be a relative
(26:04):
of his.
And then we ran memorial roomsthroughout the games and
hundreds and hundreds ofathletes and volunteers came and
cried and signed a book thatwent back across to the family
of the athlete in Georgia.
So I have those memoriesbecause it was done right.
Brian Stiller (26:26):
David, you have served as chair of the
Evangelical Fellowship of Canadaand other global evangelical
communities.
Over the last few years there'sbeen a politicization of the
name evangelical and I'mwondering do you see that as a
name that's worth saving andpreserving and advancing?
David Wells (26:46):
Two prongs, I think .
For those who this platformpicture I used and evangelically
aligned.
I think we have to have claritythat there is a good place to
understand ourselves asevangelicals and evangelically
aligned and what it means tokeep honoring that message of
Christ.
To keep honoring that messageof Christ From off of that
platform, how we reflectourselves to the community, how
(27:12):
we brand ourselves, titleourselves.
We can certainly look atvariations on a theme.
I'm probably part of theEvangelical Fellowship of Canada
to this day and have colleagueson the world of Evangelical
Alliance.
What would be the new branding?
(27:32):
There have been manyconversations about that.
But yet there can beexpressions off of that platform
that aren't necessarily labeledper se as evangelical or
whatever, and so people usevariations on a theme, just like
Pentecostals do.
There are very few of my localchurches per se have Pentecostal
(27:53):
in the branding.
And yet you'll walk in andyou'll sense the Spirit at work
and you'll worship with theglobal community in a
Pentecostal way, you know.
So do I get nauseous about that?
Well, not if their leadersstill remain aligned with our
mission and, you know, are ingood relationship and so on.
So is that the same for thebroader evangelical table moving
(28:18):
forward.
Well, I guess we'll keepprocessing that, won't we?
Brian Stiller (28:22):
David, you've had a track record of collaboration
with others.
David, you've had a trackrecord of collaboration with
others.
What is there within your?
David Wells (28:48):
Pentecostal framework of theology and
experience.
That would give you an opennessto honestly consider others as
being legitimate and of value,which gives you this spirit of
collaboration.
The picture I go back to aboutmean things and what's at the
core, and if I find somebody,that what's at the core, that's
who they are.
They're a follower of Jesus.
They honor God's word.
They love God, heart, soul,mind and strength.
Word they love God, heart, soul, mind and strength.
(29:12):
You start there and you buildas far as.
What table are we talking about?
What level do we have to be?
Are you wanting to come andaffiliate with the POC?
Well, there's more details tothat alignment than oh.
You're a friend from ahistorically neo-charismatic
movement that loves Jesus andhas different views on renewal
(29:32):
or certain ways.
The Spirit works Well.
We've got a lot we can agree on, a lot of contexts we can be in
together.
Sometimes you'll go off to yourfavorite speaker and events and
I probably won't, you know, andvice versa, and I think you
know.
The Spirit's poured out on sonsand daughters.
The Spirit's poured out onevery tongue, tribe, nation, and
(29:55):
that's my default I start with.
I'm connected at the core withthis person at the deepest
levels of Spirit, of what Christhas done in our lives, about
our honoring of God andworshipers.
We live in truth, secondary andtertiary truth, not always.
(30:18):
Okay.
Well, let's agree to disagree.
I may not campaign for the samecandidate in a Canadian
election that you will, but youknow it's like we have to be
able to agree to disagree inorder to have a good
relationship as well.
Some of us have been marriedfor quite a few years and we
(30:39):
totally understand that think,maybe more so now than ever,
brian.
I've also learned how toapologize and repent and
sometimes be a symbolic personin that realm and you know, to
our indigenous peoples and leadthe PLC to engage about our
historic relationship with ourindigenous leaders and come to a
(31:02):
conference with a mutual letterof apology that our indigenous
people also wanted to sign backto the non-Indigenous.
Brian Stiller (31:11):
David, I'll never forget the moment in Albania
when you got up and made aconfession to the more
liturgical denominations.
As a member of yourdenomination in Canada, I was
(31:38):
singularly proud of both yourcourage and your evident skill
in doing it and saying it theway you did.
But as Bishop of Canada, headof the Pentecostal churches, is
there a lack of pastoralcandidates?
How is the church doing inCanada?
David Wells (31:49):
Well, we're seeing this incremental growth, like I
said, in our orb and God's atwork in fresh ways, which we're
celebrating.
But I also symbolize somebodyused the you know, the imagery
of you know, this big bulgeworking its way through right.
Coming up.
Brian Stiller (32:10):
You know the pig in the python.
David Wells (32:12):
There you go, you've got the exact phraseology
.
So you know, those of us whoare builders and boomers we're
pretty well moving through, youknow, and that does leave a
demographic just straightnumbers gap.
You know that has to be filled.
It's interesting as that isbeing responded to expectations
(32:33):
about official ministry and howthe tracks you follow they're
all adjusting, they're allmoving.
So we're seeing that we don'tjust develop young women and men
through their four-yearprograms coming through the
colleges that's still part ofour development but you also
have a good number of peoplesecond career or people from
(32:55):
within the life of the churchthat are making commitments to
you know, train for ministry andbecome credentialed, and that's
as strong a track as the trackthat would come up through full
year development.
And then, of course, thank Godfor the global church and those
(33:16):
that have come to join us andthe large growth factor there
and those who are participatingwith us, you know, as
credentialed leaders and justpeople in the life of the church
.
So that's a strong part ofespecially a Pentecostal
constituency where so much ishappening globally, that gets
reflected back into the life ofthe Canadian church, thank God,
(33:39):
you know, and it's not justabout numbers, it's just about
the life, the vitality, themission, and so those factors
become things you're all takinginto account and yet we've
really prioritized.
Even our strategic vision groupof our general executive has
been about reaching, disciplingand developing the leadership of
(34:01):
children, youth and youngadults, and I'm going to our
general executive with a wholeand I'm going to our general
executive with a wholecontinuing emphasis on that, but
with resources mentorshiponeplatform that is encouraging
younger men and women in theircalling.
We've published gift books forall our constituency about.
(34:29):
We the Called, especiallyoriented to younger leaders,
both Now whether they want toactually end up in the very type
of role that Dave Wells haslived out the last five decades.
That could be a good questionto ask.
But you know there's a futureorientation to this calling and
we want to facilitate it, buildplatforms and then tell them
rise and go way beyond anythingwe've ever seen.
Brian Stiller (34:48):
So it is dominating, but there's hope,
there's good signs so forsomebody there out there who's
who's interested, wonderingwhether they have a role, what
path might they take towardsconsidering a call to ministry,
pastoral ministry or some otherkind of missional activity?
David Wells (35:10):
So in our context, a lot of people are initiating
that right through their localchurches, talking to their
pastor and, like I wasindicating, some of the pastors
are just approaching theirdistricts and saying I've got
this person, I got a calling.
Well then, usually they'lloften stay, remained involved in
the life of the church but besupplemented in their
(35:31):
theological training and so on.
They'll be able to draw off ofdifferent resources or different
institutions even whilebeginning that track.
Others will be pointed towardsour districts especially and
help to find how to plug in andget on the track to ordained
ministry or credentialedministry, you know.
(35:54):
So it's multifaceted again, butthe main pipeline is through
the local church and thenconnecting with our districts.
And if our offices approach, wefind the right pipeline for
them to connect with and makesure they can track with us.
Some of that is theinternational interest to align
(36:15):
with us.
But yeah, it's a matter ofsaying, man, I'm sensing a
stirring and calling in my life.
We've got our younger leadersalways on the lookout for those
that are in their youth, youngadult ministries that are saying
, boy, I'm sensing like God'scalling me to something.
Well, how are they going tofacilitate that and providing
(36:35):
even events that point young menand young women towards getting
equipped for the calling that'son their life.
Brian Stiller (36:43):
After five decades in ministry, what would
you say to a younger David Wellstoday?
David Wells (36:48):
Okay, that's kind of bizarre, but I would say you
made some really smart decisionsalong the way.
You listened to the rightpeople and you didn't listen to
the wrong people.
There were points of dividethat it could have easily ruined
my life and calling what wasthe basis on which you chose one
(37:10):
over the other points?
of divide that it could haveeasily ruined my life and
calling.
What was the basis on which youchose one over the other?
Were they about main things?
Were they honoring the core ofwhat we were called to be, as
far as in the life of the churchand in my own personal calling?
And you know, people come alongand they'll derail you, they'll
make you about all about thisor all about that, and so it's a
(37:31):
matter of saying yes to theright things and the right
people.
But I also would want toreiterate, and, david, say no to
, you know, things that willderail you, derail your calling
or get you way off on asidetrack that's not going to
really amount to anything.
And be about those main thingsand always do it alongside of
(37:54):
the people God puts into yourlife from within the body of
Christ, and enjoy the diversityof that.
Like, don't get in a little box, a little franchise, and say
this is the only influences thatare going to be in my life.
I went from being questionedabout my loyalty to the POC in
the 1990s to being the generalsuperintendent and, first of all
(38:17):
, the district superintendent in2001.
So when people were still doingthe franchise model and I
looked like I had broaderrelationships and broader
influences.
So I would say to the youngDave Wells again you know, be
open to the diversity that's inthe body of Christ and let God
(38:38):
do what he wants to do in yourlife and calling through some
unexpected relationships.
Brian Stiller (38:45):
David Wells, thank you for joining us on
Evangelical 360 today.
David Wells (38:49):
Great to be with you, Brian.
Thank you.
Brian Stiller (38:52):
Thank you, david, for joining us today and for
inspiring us to reach beyond ourown familiar traditions and
tribes, and thank you for beinga part of the podcast.
Be sure to share this episode,use hashtag Evangelical360 and
join the conversation on YouTube.
If you'd like to learn moreabout today's guest, be sure to
(39:16):
check the show notes for linksand info, and if you haven't
already received my free e-bookand newsletter, just go to
brianstillercom.
Thanks again.
Until next time, don't miss thenext interview.
Be sure to subscribe toEvangelical 360 on YouTube.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.