July 4, 2025 • 46 mins
Is the United Kingdom truly a spiritual graveyard, or are we witnessing the first signs of an unexpected revival? Gavin Calver, CEO of the Evangelical Alliance UK, reveals compelling evidence that challenges the narrative of Britain's religious decline.
While headlines focus on empty pews, something remarkable is stirring beneath the surface. Gen Z is twice as likely to believe in God as their Gen X parents. Bible sales have surged 87% in five years. Two million more people attend church now than five years ago. These aren't just anecdotes—major media outlets like The Times are reporting on this shift, confirming what Calver describes as "an openness to the gospel that hasn't existed in my lifetime."
What's driving this spiritual renaissance? Calver points to several factors: "reverse missionaries" from Africa, Asia and beyond bringing faith back to Britain; the unifying effect of secular pressure forcing churches to collaborate; and a renewed focus on equipping everyday Christians to share their faith. Most surprising is research showing one in three non-Christians actively want conversations with Christian friends about faith.
The Evangelical Alliance itself presents a fascinating case study in navigating complex cultural waters while maintaining theological clarity. Founded in 1846 (predating even the World Evangelical Alliance), the Alliance has consistently focused on two missions: uniting evangelicals to share the gospel and providing a voice for believers in the corridors of power. Today, it represents 3,000 churches, 500 organizations and 27,000 individual members across the UK's four nations.
Multicultural Christianity has transformed British evangelicalism, with 25-33% of UK evangelicals now from global majority backgrounds. This diversity has strengthened prayer culture, evangelistic effectiveness, and the church's ability to transcend social divides. As Calver notes, "The church can do something no one else in London can do – get every tribe, every tongue, every age group around the table together."
You can learn more with Gavin Calver through the Evangelical Alliance UK website , his literature, and you can find him on Facebook and Instagram.
And you can share this episode using hashtag #Evangelical360 and join the conversation online!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brian Stiller (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm your host, Brian Stiller,and I'm pleased to share with
you another conversation withleaders, changemakers and
influencers impacting Christianlife around the world.
My guest today is Gavin Calvert, CEO of the Evangelical
Alliance in the UK.
The story of Christianity inthe United Kingdom is often told
(00:33):
as a slow decline, a nationdrifting away from the faith,
with increasingly empty pews andsecular headlines.
But is that the whole story?
Are evangelicals in Englandfading out or is there something
stirring beneath the surface, asort of resurgence or renewal?
Well, Gavin Calver is here tohelp us look beyond the
(00:56):
headlines and tell us if thereare in fact, signs of new life
breaking through across the UK.
So listen in and join theconversation on YouTube in the
comments below, and be sure tosubscribe and share this episode
using hashtag Evangelical360.
Gavin Calvert, so good to haveyou here on Evangelical360.
Gavin Calver (01:25):
It's brilliant to be with you.
Brian Stiller (01:26):
Gavin, it's amazing to me to watch what's
going on in the UK.
I mean your country.
The UK has the reputation ofbeing a graveyard of churches
and yet over the last few yearsthere's emerged out of your
country a ministry forevangelism that I've never seen
(01:47):
in my lifetime.
It's something to watch.
And for you, as director of theAlliance in the UK, what are
you observing that would producethis kind of initiative for
evangelism?
Gavin Calver (02:04):
Well, I think the culture's changed, I think the
temperature's changed and Ithink it's even more rapid.
I mean, things like Alpha andother stuff have been around a
long time that have impactedglobally, but in the last two
years I would say there's been atemperature change in the UK.
We're not living in revival,we're maybe not even quite in
awakening, but there's anopenness in the UK culture to
(02:25):
the gospel that there's not beenin my lifetime and I'm 45.
So for the best part of half acentury we've not had the
openness we have now, and that'squite remarkable.
But it's also quite new andit's very exciting.
What has produced that.
A work of the Holy Spirit isobviously the answer.
But let me be honest with youon one thing, brian.
I'm an optimistic, hope-filledevangelistic type.
(02:48):
So if I go into a room and tellpeople God's moving, everyone
says well, that's what you wouldsay.
However, in the last ninemonths I've seen the Lord do
stuff I've not seen in a longtime.
I've seen ridiculous responsesto talks.
I've seen engagement on thepublic transport around the
gospel.
We've seen all kinds offruitfulness.
But then our newspapers havestarted reporting it in the last
(03:10):
few months.
So the Times newspaper, whichis probably the most reputable
newspaper in the UK, reportedthat Gen Z forgive me, I can't
do the Z thing Gen Z are twiceas likely to not be atheists as
their parents Gen X.
So my kids twice as likely tonot be atheists as their parents
Gen X, so my kids twice aslikely to not be atheists as me.
Then three weeks later, theyreported an 87% increase in
(03:34):
sales of the Bible in the UK inthe last five years,
predominantly amongst youngpeople.
Now, the Bible wasn'tstruggling in the UK, it was
already the best-selling book bya long way.
But for its 87% increase, thefacts wasn't struggling in the
UK, it was already thebest-selling book by a long way,
but for its 87% increase.
Brian Stiller (03:52):
The facts are matching the anecdotes that the
Lord's moving in a new way.
Gavin, I want to come back tothat, but let's go back
historically.
The World Evangelical Alliancewas formed in the UK in 1846.
You hold the records of thatremarkable beginning and the
history.
Give us your accounting of howthat came about and then how
that has moved down to theAlliance as it's manifest today
(04:13):
under your leadership.
Gavin Calver (04:15):
Yeah, I mean.
The reason the UK EvangelicalAlliance is the oldest in the
world is because way back in1846, and forgive me, I love my
American brothers and sisters,so don't hear this wrong me now
but the Brits wouldn't unitewith the Americans initially
over the issue of slavery,because the Brits didn't own
slaves and many of the Americansstill did, and that was too big
(04:35):
an issue for the Brits to unite.
So from the very beginning forthe Evangelical Alliance, full
stop.
For the very beginning itwasn't unity at any cost.
There were always boundaries tothat and I think that's
important to remember.
There's a justice bent to whatwe do.
But then that obviously led tofurther conversations and the
World Evangelical Alliance wasborn and that's been an amazing
ministry globally.
(04:56):
That's made a difference.
I think Evangelical Alliance nowin the UK, as we head to 180
years old next year, we stillreally exist for the two things
we were started for to uniteevangelicals in sharing the
gospel in every corner of theUnited Kingdom and secondly, to
give a clear, effective,confident, united voice within
(05:17):
the corridors of power.
And so we change our posture.
So I think there's lots ofdifferent postures we have at
the moment.
We change our posture.
But the substance of the EA, inthe UK at least, has remained
largely the same over 180 years,with peaks and troughs in the
effectiveness of the ministry.
But it's quite something thatthe focus of the ministry
remains the same nearly 200years on.
Brian Stiller (05:40):
But you are a collection of so many cultures
and languages and peoples.
Your cultural landscape hasbeen manifestly changed.
How does that reflect itself inthe worshipping and the
witnessing aspect of theevangelical community?
Gavin Calver (05:58):
Yeah, I think for a start I mean way back in 1997,
a gentleman called Joel Edwardswas appointed into my role and
he's passed away now sadly.
But Joel was of Caribbeanheritage and it was said at that
point that you had a blackleader for the white churches.
That's not the case now in theUK.
(06:18):
It's not that we don't have I'mobviously a white leader but
the bottom line is about aquarter to a third of UK
evangelicals are of globalmajority heritage.
Now that's had a reallysignificant impact.
But what's interesting is thestyle changes like the wind but
the substance isn't compromisedon and actually issues like
immigration have led to allkinds of church growth.
(06:41):
Reverse mission has transformedthe prayer culture of my nation.
You know there's so manybenefits of it too.
But the landscape in the UK isremarkable and I live in London
as I would need to for my job.
London is probably the mostdiverse and yet relatively
united city in the world.
It's quite an amazing place andthe church can do something no
(07:02):
one else in London can do.
And the church can do somethingno one else in London can do.
We can get every tribe, everytongue, every age group, every
gender around the table together, fellowshipping and worshipping
together, we can do a unitythat nothing else in this
culture can do, and I thinkthat's the kind of unity Jesus
prayed for himself in John 17that the world would notice.
The world notices the unity ofthe church because it's powerful
(07:24):
and it goes beyond the dividesthat otherwise people build
walls around.
Brian Stiller (07:29):
Being part of the British Commonwealth, I'm
familiar with the power of theUK in our history and there's a
certain kind of arrogance withthat cultural power.
So I think about that as partof our history.
And yet to hear you talk aboutthose who have migrated into the
(07:50):
UK creating a kind of a unitywithin the church in England,
but that seems to be indistinction to the arrogance
that I have felt from the churchof England of the past
centuries.
Gavin Calver (08:08):
Let's talk about the Church in England.
Well, in the UK, actually,because it's four nations, but
the Church in the UK, not theChurch of England, because we'll
confuse ourselves as to whatwe're talking about.
We're not talking aboutdenomination, but the Church in
the United Kingdom is not in anyposition to be arrogant.
We're in a position to bedesperate, and that desperation
has led to a unity that I don'tthink places like the United
(08:31):
States wouldn't have the kind ofunity we've got in various
places, because it doesn't needit yet.
Still there's more of achurch-going culture, still
there's people turning up.
When you have a secular nation,you're forced to either run
together or just it's over.
So we're running together withpeople, but then also people are
coming to this nation, bringingthe gospel back to this nation
(08:51):
after it was sent from thisnation to all kinds of places,
and coming in and helping us out.
So actually in this season, Ithink the posture of the uk
church is one lord, please move.
We're desperate, but alsoplease send us people to change
the landscape, because we needhelp.
Brian Stiller (09:07):
So there's a humility in the church that
seems uncommon to its history.
Gavin Calver (09:15):
Yeah, there's a desperation.
There's a desperation.
It's been some of the recentgood news, like we shared
earlier and we might come backto again in a bit.
The Bible Society have justdone some research called the
Quiet Revival I think the name'sslightly unhelpful, but it
basically shows that 2 millionmore people go to church than
five years ago in the UK.
Those are significant numbersfor here.
(09:36):
We've just done some changingchurch research showing what's
different in the church from2021 until now.
Twice as many people arebecoming Christians through
local churches now as in 2021.
Things are changing.
Things are moving.
It feels like the recoverystarted.
The Lord's moving in power andthat's amazing.
But we got to a fairly low ebb,from which the cry of our hearts
(09:59):
was a desperate one, and theLord has sent us people from all
over the world and is changingour church.
I mean, for example, I have afriend who came here as a
reverse missionary from Ugandanever been on an aeroplane
before comes as a missionary,gets to Heathrow Airport, gets
his bags, he's got a decision tomake.
He's never made in his lifesomething to declare or nothing
to declare.
So he goes through something todeclare and he says to the guy
(10:23):
at customs I declare that JesusChrist is the son of God and by
believing you'll have life inhis name.
The guy in customs looks at himlike what's wrong with you.
So he says I declare Jesus diedfor you and they let him in,
which is good.
But we've had people come tothis nation to remind us that we
have something to declare, thatwe can't live on a history,
we've got to live in a current,that in this nation you've got a
(10:43):
strange mix-up.
In the UK Anyone older than meis kind of in a post-Christian
country.
Anyone younger than me is kindof in a pre-Christian country
and we've got to do all we canto communicate good news in the
right way and we're taking allthe help we can.
But this is an amazing time tobe part of the UK church, one of
the most dynamic multicultural.
I'm translated at least onceevery six weeks, most recently
(11:07):
into Punjabi for the first time,preaching at a church full of
Asian folks who've all come tofaith from other faiths Six
baptisms that morning.
God's moving powerfully.
But the UK church does not looklike the one people think they
see through Downton Abbey.
Brian Stiller (11:21):
You talk about the reverse missionary plan.
So someone's come from Africareally as a missionary to the UK
.
Describe for us how that works.
Gavin Calver (11:32):
It works the same as it's worked throughout
history.
Someone gets the call of God togo to a nation that in their
mind is not reached enough andthey go and bring good news.
Now it's really hard at first.
When this was first breakingthrough 20, 30, 40, 40 years ago
, it was a lot harder than now.
We're used to receivingmissionaries now in a different
(11:53):
way.
But what you'll often get aswell as you'll get a people
group moving here, and at firstthey will meet in a church
that's largely around their owndemographic.
Then by the second or thirdgeneration they have to say how
do we reach the community here?
And so we've got individualscoming, but we've also got
communities coming.
So what?
The Nigerian church who've comehere quite significantly, what
(12:14):
they've done for the prayer lifeof the evangelical church in
the UK is second to none.
What some of the Iranian churchhave taught us about
person-to-person evangelism islike nothing you'd experience,
what some of the recentUkrainian church coming in have
taught us about hospitality.
So it's mixed betweenindividuals coming as
(12:35):
missionaries and people groupscoming and then saying we live
here, this is our mission field.
But both of those have had quitean impact.
We live here, this is ourmission field, but both of those
have had quite an impact andwhat it's done, I think, is, in
some ways, the I don't reallylike this term, but, if you like
, the indigenous host communityhas been woken up to the fact
that we've got a mission fieldon our doorstep too.
You know, we, when there was adanger, would be like jonah in
(12:57):
jonah one, with the sailorshaving to wake us up and say how
can we be saved?
Actually, we've be woken up tothe fact that actually we need
to pray for the lost and we needto open our mouths about the
hope we have in Jesus.
And off the back of that, Ithink we're seeing the situation
change in this nation and I'mvery hopeful about the
generation after me and whatcomes next.
Brian Stiller (13:18):
Our history as evangelicals tends to gravitate
towards personal spirituality.
To what degree does theAlliance in the UK operate
within the public policy issuesof your day?
Gavin Calver (13:34):
Yeah, hugely.
I mean this is the.
I wish more people are joiningthe Evangelical Alliance in the
moment than any time for 25years.
I wish that was for the missionand evangelism work, but
actually it's for the advocacywork we do in the public square.
Access within the corridors ofpower is better than it's been
certainly this millennium.
Our ability to speak truth intothe House of Commons, the House
(13:57):
of Lords, scotland Yard, theSenate in Wales, stormont in
Northern Ireland, holyrood inScotland or 10 Downing Street,
wherever we're in those places,and what we do is we have a
membership model whereby we takethe voice of the members into
those places.
At the moment there's an awfullot being done around assisted
dying, although we challengethat and say actually we already
have assisted dying in the UKit's called palliative care.
(14:19):
What you're talking about isassisted suicide.
In the last nine months alonewe've met with hundreds of
members of parliament across thefour nations of the uk on that
issue.
We speak up.
We take the voice of the churchinto the corridors of power.
We the one issue throughout our180 years we've always spoken
on is freedom of religion andbelief.
Without fail, that's been thethe most important things
(14:40):
religious liberty issues.
But every day has its differentissues of that moment, and so
if you'd asked me a year ago, Iwouldn't have mentioned assisted
dying, because that came aboutquite quickly after our election
last summer.
Who knows what it might be in ayear's time, but there are
certain issues on which we speak, and my staff team have a full
time presence across all fourparliaments of the UK.
Brian Stiller (15:01):
What outcomes have you seen from that
engagement?
Gavin Calver (15:05):
Many, but my favourite one in my time.
I've been at EA for a decade.
My favourite one in my time wasthe UK government said they
wanted to inspect all youth workand Sunday schools in churches.
So you know, like you do withschools, they inspect schools.
They want to do that inchurches.
Public regulation of privatereligion at what point had I
moved to north korea?
(15:25):
I mean that, what a religiousliberty problem that is.
So we went in and we spoke onbehalf of all our membership,
which is 3 000 churches, 500organizations, 27 000
individuals, and we said there'sno way you can do this.
This is an absolute overstepinto religious liberty.
There's no way this is evenpossible.
It's not feasible, it's notplausible.
And because we spoke with onevoice, at least for then, for
(15:48):
the time being has been kickedinto the long grass because we
were able to explain theproblems.
My approach to public policyissues is let's assume they're
not against us, because a lot ofpeople assume the government
are against you.
Most of the time.
It's faith and literacy that'sthe problem.
Government are against you Mostof the time.
It's faith and literacy that'sthe problem, not an attack on
the church.
So we go into these spaces andpoint out unintended
(16:09):
consequences and then allow thegovernment to see that and adapt
policies.
To say, because this is not,however much I want it to be,
this is not a Christian countryanymore.
This is a country with aChristian heritage.
It operates the faith.
(16:29):
Literacy in the corridors ofpower is limited.
Brian Stiller (16:32):
However, the opportunities for the
Evangelical Alliance to engageare unlimited.
Transgender, lgbtq+, identityand rights.
How has the Alliance in the UKnavigated those waters?
Sensitive to the issues but atthe same time maintaining a
(16:57):
classic evangelical orthodoxy?
Gavin Calver (17:00):
My leadership of the Evangelical Alliance.
When I was preparing for thisrole, the Lord said to me two
things we need to be braver inthe years ahead than we've been,
and we need to be kinder thanwe've been.
The world makes those twothings exclusive.
They go together, and so we'retrying to be brave and kind on
every issue, particularly thisone Do.
I wish this wasn't the issue ofour day, probably, but it is,
(17:21):
so you deal with it.
Our position has always beenthat we don't think the theology
is all that complicated.
It's absolutely clear thatmarriage is between a man and a
woman and there's no room withinevangelical Christianity for
anything beyond that.
However, the pastoralimplications are incredibly
complicated.
So we have sought to gatherleaders to share experience.
We have sought to resourcepeople.
(17:42):
It was six years ago we firstput out our resource Transformed
, which is about how churchescan approach the issue of
transgenderism.
We've just redone it again.
The government have reallyreversed on that in about the
last six months and they'veactually agreed, largely without
realising it, with what wewrote five or six years ago.
On the same-sex marriage andLGBTQ relationships.
(18:03):
We have done something calledRelationships Matter, which is a
seven-week small group resourcefor churches to work through on
how to help people be orthodoxon the issue, but kind.
We've got 10 affirmationschurches use about human
flourishing.
We have resourced significantlyin this area and thousands of
churches have used what we'veproduced in this area and
(18:24):
thousands of churches have usedwhat we've produced.
We've also tried to frame it ina wider conversation, because in
some ways, the least excitingor interesting thing about a
person is their sexuality.
So we've tried to frame it in awider conversation what it
means to be human and I've donea whole set of resources on that
and what does it mean to behuman in the world of AI?
And what does it mean to behuman and flourish in our sexual
relationships.
What does it mean to be humanin community?
So we've done an awful lot,we've navigated it, but what we
(18:47):
haven't done is slip in any wayinto a liberal position on this
Because, to be honest, it's likewe're playing a big game of
Kaplunk I don't know if you havethat game in Canada, a big game
of Kaplunk and if you pull thisout, the marbles fall down and
the game is over.
You know there is no room inScripture for an affirming
position in our view, andtherefore we can't move.
(19:10):
We're just seeking to be kind.
Brian Stiller (19:13):
Gavin, you have such a wide variety of religious
traditions within theevangelical community.
How do you build those varyingtheological distinctives and the
style of ministry?
How do you bring them togetherin an evangelical alliance so
that there is cooperation andunity?
Gavin Calver (19:34):
So it's hard work because we've got over 80
streams, denominations ornetworks represented within our
membership.
That means that Sunday morningscan be fun, because I go to
church with my family on aSunday night.
Most Sunday mornings I'm outsomewhere.
You work out in the firstworship song where you are Not
the name of the church, nothingelse.
The first worship song tellsyou is it hands in the air or
(19:58):
hands in the pockets?
Do I fully release my innercharismatic self or do I retain
it a little?
My wife will say what time areyou home?
I'll say 1.46pm, because thatchurch has never gone over an
hour in 140 years.
Somewhere else, I'll sayhopefully today.
You know, it's the diversitythat we celebrate, but I think
one of the key things to us iswe keep the main things, the
main thing.
So we have a statement of faiththat people have to gather
(20:20):
around to be part of thealliance.
That is largely unchanged in180 years the statement of faith
.
There are issues we work off onthe sides, but the statement of
faith holds together.
We always are clear that wewill gather around the primary
and we will disagree on thesecondary, and that's okay, but
we can stand together.
But it's really important thatwe keep the main things, the
main things, and we know wherewe're going.
(20:41):
So it means within our alliance, our alliance.
I mean, yeah, you do have thegreatest difference of
expression on the sunday morningyou can imagine, but you have
the same theological convictionsand the same desire to see the
nation, one for jesus, thatdrives us forward together.
And we find that.
We find that things like theaforementioned sexuality, things
like our resources on freedomof religion and belief and what
(21:04):
your freedoms are to share thegospel and things like our stuff
on racism or our stuff onpublic engagement, public policy
.
Those unite because actuallypeople want to come together on
those things.
So we find the things thatunite, we drive forward together
.
And the only thing theEvangelical Alliance does
liberally in the UK is makefriends.
So we make friends, we humanizewhat it is.
(21:25):
Once you've had a meal togetherit's a lot easier to talk about
other things.
We don't hide away in an officeand tell everyone what to do.
We get out and about face toface.
I've met with over a thousandof our church leaders in the
last two years and I want to getaround the other 2000 in the
next year or so.
Brian Stiller (21:40):
Gavin, the Alliance in the UK was formed
just following the spectacularand remarkable leadership of
Wilberforce on the slavery issue.
Bringing that down to today,how does the alliance operate in
terms of the issues of justice,of immigration and other
justice related issues thatsurface within the body politic
(22:04):
in the UK?
Gavin Calver (22:05):
Yeah, I mean, let me just say on the Wilberforce
one, we're always very clearthat Wilberforce did that
alongside many, including OladuEquiano.
So it wasn't because one of thechallenges in the UK at times
is UK evangelicals have talkedabout, say, the abolition of the
slave trade as if that was justdone by white evangelicals,
when actually there was apartnership all the way along
which is quite significant to us.
(22:25):
We speak into the hard issuestoday.
There's interesting at themoment the government are trying
to bring in a definition ofIslamophobia.
Now that's quite an interestingpiece of work.
So we've met with governmentofficials in the last couple of
weeks on that and talked aboutactually what does it mean for
us to be a coherent society andto work together with other
people we might disagree with?
We've done a resource calledVisions of Justice and Hope to
(22:49):
help people, help those fromother ethnicities, because
tragically a number of people inchurches in the UK have
experienced forms of racism andwe think that's absolutely wrong
.
So we're calling that out andsaying how do we work together?
Issues of immigration obviouslydefine and divide politics like
almost nothing else.
So on those issues we make surewe're speaking up for the least
(23:12):
, the last and the lost, butwe're also speaking into a
society about the fact we needto have sensible conversations
about a number of these things.
So I think our proximitycertainly the way it works here
in the UK is our proximity tothe political world allows us to
be in conversations aroundthese things, but we have to be
careful how loud we are aboutthem outside of the room as well
, because my job is to lead theunity body that brings together
(23:36):
the UK's evangelicals, notconstantly speak out on really
hard issues that divide us.
So we have a number of theseconversations behind closed
doors.
On some of them we have policy.
On some of them we don't.
But what we will not stop doingis fighting for the least of
the last of the last, caring forthe poor, speaking up for
justice and sharing hope.
Brian Stiller (23:56):
Gavin, in North America, primarily the US,
you've got an interesting modelthat's been emerging over the
last few years of a Christiancommunity that wants to engage
in the public policy issues in away that would insist that
public policy adhere to theirChristian views or their sense
(24:20):
of what a Christian nationshould be like.
As you look at that as aparticular model that's manifest
today, how are you leading thealliance in the UK as it relates
to the relationship of thechurch towards governance and to
the body politic?
Gavin Calver (24:38):
Yeah, that's an interesting question.
I think it's slightly differenthere and it's very different.
I mean, I don't know if youwant to talk about this in a bit
, but being an evangelical heremeans something quite distinct,
I think, to what it means in theUS.
It is different, but I thinkfor us what it means in this
space is actually we want ourvoice to be heard.
So so often in politics in theUK the loudest boos come from
(25:05):
the cheapest seats, people thatactually haven't got that much
of a hold within the culture.
No one provides more commongood for the UK for free than
the church.
No one does.
Everything else has to behelped by the taxpayer.
We do so much to help thissociety.
So we want our voice to be heard.
We want to be seen, we want tobe in the conversation.
We want the Christian voice tobe understood.
We want our politicians tounderstand how many of us there
(25:26):
are, but we're not fighting sothat everyone's forced into a
form of Christendom.
We want our voice to be heardand us to be seen On things like
abortion or assisted dying.
We want people to realize thatactually the giver and taker of
life is the Lord and we wantthem to hear that, and we want
that voice to be heard alongsidethe other voices.
(25:46):
And so what we are trying to dois make sure that we have a
reasonable, theological, clear,compassionate, godly voice and
that we're around as many tablesas possible.
What we're not doing is sayingthis is a Christian country.
Therefore, boom, boom, boom,because I'm not really sure
that's the right reading of theUK in this moment.
(26:08):
We're a country with awonderful Christian heritage.
Let's not forget thoseChristian moments, but let's
also look into the future andwhat we want to see for our
children and our children'schildren.
Brian Stiller (26:19):
You spent years as Director of Youth for Christ
in the UK, which is anevangelistic outreach to young
people.
How has evangelism emergedwithin the UK over the last few
years and what changes themigration of people from other
countries?
What changes does that socialdemographic bring to how the
(26:42):
gospel is presented?
Gavin Calver (26:45):
Interesting.
I think the fundamental shifttaking place is from large
gatherings to everyone beinginvolved in witnessing.
I think that's going to taketime, but I think that's part of
the shift.
We've done some research as theEvangelical Alliance with some
others called Talking Jesus,which found that one in three
non-Christians want aconversation with a Christian
(27:05):
friend about their faith.
That's remarkable, isn't it?
One in three non-Christianswant to hear from a Christian
friend about their faith.
We thought for years they wantedto go on a course or they
wanted to hear a sermon or theywanted to hear a wonderful
apologetic.
Actually, they want to chat totheir friend and see we're
facing the same things in life.
What's different when you facethem with Jesus?
And so I think one of the bigchanges in evangelism in the UK
(27:25):
is big events will always workto some level.
But actually, how do we empowereveryone who loves jesus and
has a pulse to be a witness intheir day?
How do we move away from justmaking decisions to seeing
disciples as well, and how do wesee everyone playing their part
in this?
And how do we engage peoplewhere they are?
You know, I'll never forget howimpactful it was to me when I
(27:47):
first really realized that whenj meets the woman at the well,
the first question is can I havea drink?
He leads her and then a wholevillage to himself and he never
gets his drink.
It took me a few years torealize that he doesn't actually
get his drink, the very thinghe starts the conversation on,
but he starts with the drink.
In order to find common ground,they can have a conversation.
We want to see that shiftcontinue where all people are
(28:08):
playing their part in witnessing.
So we still do the big events,you still do the courses, you
still do the programs, but wealso have a full workforce doing
their best to make Jesus known.
I think one of the biggestdifferences that's come from
immigration on this is, goodnessme, the way that some parts of
the church and other parts ofthe world pray is like something
I've never encountered.
Parts of the church and otherparts of the world pray is like
(28:29):
something I've never encountered, and a lot of british
evangelicals overestimate theiractivities and underestimate
their preface and yet the waythat we've started praying for
the lost, the coordinated prayer, in recent years, it's no
surprise, is it, that we'reseeing shoots of life now in the
church, with so much prayingfor the lost taking place.
In fact, I was at a church justthe other week preaching Two
(28:50):
huge digital boards on the wall,digital notice boards.
One was a few names and one wasloads of names During the
notices.
They pressed a button and a fewnames went from the long list
to the shorter one.
They sang a song.
They all started dancing,having a party.
I'm like what's going on?
I said to the associate pastorwhat's happening here.
He said we have that list ofpeople we're praying for every
(29:15):
day to come to jesus, and whenany do we move them to the other
board and we have a littleparty here in church, because
what else would we becelebrating other than salvation
locally?
It's an amazing thing and we'remaking our witnessing a team
game, not an individual pursuit,and I just it's that kind of
stuff.
We're seeing change around theprayer.
We're seeing change aroundeveryone being involved and we
are really winter's over here.
We're seeing the signs ofspring spiritually.
Brian Stiller (29:35):
I'm interested in knowing how the Pentecostal
emphasis, which has seemed to besuch a powerful movement in the
UK, how that is changing thelandscape of faith and the
practice of worship andevangelism.
Gavin Calver (29:50):
Yeah, it would depend which part of
Pentecostalism we're speakingabout, but the fastest growing
Pentecostal network in the UKwould be the Redeemed Christian
Church of God.
When they plant a church, theyhire a flat in a community and
just pray for three months, 24-7, so that the ground is softened
for what they're then going todo.
Now I don't think that if theBaptist Union were planning a
(30:12):
church, I'm not sure that wouldbe the way they did it.
So you know, we're seeingdifferent encounters, different
experiences.
I think what you're alsofinding in Pentecostalism is an
awful lot of younger people aredesperate for the spiritual and
some of the encounter they'llhave in those settings, some of
the work of the spirit in thosesettings, some of the work of
the Spirit in those settings, issomething they're really drawn
to.
(30:33):
I also think that some otherparts of the church are not so
good at some discipleship stuffthat Pentecostals are good at,
from giving to praying, to otherthings.
So it's changing stuff for lotsof us.
But I think we're only at thestart of the change.
I think we're going to start.
We're hearing the sound of rain.
There's a lot more to come.
Brian Stiller (31:01):
The UK is comprised of four countries.
How does the alliance operate,given that you've got Irish,
Scottish, Welsh and Englishexpressions of the UK?
Gavin Calver (31:08):
For a country that voted to leave the European
Union for a moment.
We're incredibly good atworking across different nations
.
There's an irony to that.
We're quite good at doing fournations in one.
So I am the CEO of the UKEvangelical Alliance, but there
are national leaders in Scotland, wales, wales and northern
ireland.
(31:28):
So I was in scotland just lastweek.
I'm there ministering, but theleader in scotland is not me.
I'm the overarching leader, butwe have a scottish team leading
in scotland, we have a welshteam leading in wales and
northern irish team leading innorthern ireland, because most
of us would agree thatindigenous mission remains the
most effective way.
However, what we do is we areunited across those four nations
(31:49):
.
So we have the same macro plan.
We represent in a similar way,and it's interesting in the UK
too, because some powers aredevolved to those nations and
some remain in Westminster inLondon.
So there's a dance then aroundsome of the public policy stuff,
because some is done centrallyfor all four nations, some is
devolvedolved, and what we seekto do in this land is just make
(32:11):
sure that we understand some ofthe cultural differences.
So northern ireland's politicalsituation is very different to
the rest of the uk.
So, as an englishman, when Ipreach in northern ireland, I
don't mention politics.
It's best to stay away fromthat.
I don't fully understand it.
In a way I could.
So you need to know what thosetriggers are as well.
But we have an overarching team, but also within England,
because 84% of the population ofthe UK is in England.
(32:34):
However, england's verydifferent, so the danger would
be you'd have something reallyspecific for Wales but you'd
ignore the fact that NorthernEngland's very different to
Southern England.
So we did open an office in thenorth of England near
Manchester, so we've got some ofour work out of there.
So we understand those issuesbeing different and you can, in
the UK, be in danger of beingLondon centric.
(32:56):
So we've only got the peopleworking in and out of London
that need to be in London.
We've got offices in each ofthe other three nations and the
north of England.
Brian Stiller (33:05):
In working with a variety of groups.
It seems to me that you havereally majored on collaboration.
What is your biblical model ofcollaboration and how has that
been working in the Alliance inthe UK?
Gavin Calver (33:19):
Yeah, I mean the biblical model for the unity we
do comes back to Jesus' prayerin John 17, that we would be one
, and out of that it's with legs.
It's not just that we would beone, so that's good for us, it's
that the world might know.
So our whole aim is let's unitefor the sake of the lost.
It's unity with legs, and Ithink that really matters to us.
(33:42):
It's tangible.
John Stott wrote about John 17,that the unity Jesus talks
about must be tangible andoutward, and those are two
things that we are really keento make sure we're doing.
I think the other thing as well,though, is it's quite
interesting the EvangelicalAlliance, because we say to
people go deep locally, loveyour place, love your space.
(34:02):
We won't get in your way in yourzip code locally, go deep, but
be connected nationally.
So a lot of what we do also isabout the macro, and then we
pray for, cheer on and supportthe church in doing the micro in
each community too, so there'sa level of trust relationship
that makes it possible.
One of the beautiful thingsabout this land is it's big
(34:25):
enough to be significant, butit's small enough for you to
know most of the people you needto know.
So if, if something major washappening in a week's time and I
had to ring 25 people to getthem on a Zoom call or, even
better, in a room to deal withsomething I know who those are,
because this nation is stillmanageable and I think that
makes the job easier than I.
(34:46):
Don't know how people evenbegin to start leading something
like I do in the US orsomewhere else, because the
scale is just another.
It's just mind blowing.
Brian Stiller (34:55):
Given the dynamic change going on within the
religious community in the UK,how does the Evangelical
Alliance interface with theRoman Catholic, the Church of
England and with other religions?
Gavin Calver (35:09):
Well, the Church of England, for a start,
historically didn't join EA lotsbut are joining a lot more at
the moment.
Part of that is because of thelack of clarity within that
denomination on some of theissues we talked about earlier.
So they're looking to us in anew way.
So the Church of England, a lotof the Church of England, would
be part of us.
But Catholics, greek Orthodox,all kinds of groups of the
(35:29):
church would never join aschurch members of the
Evangelical Alliance.
But what I do in my role is Irepresent evangelicals in spaces
with those kind of leaders.
So Archbishop Angelos, who runsthe Greek Orthodox Church here,
cardinal Nichols, who runs theCatholic Church here.
I'd often be at breakfastgatherings or political
gatherings where it needs to bea wider Christian voice that
(35:51):
comes together.
So the relationships are thereand they're strong.
Everyone has each other's phonenumbers on their mobile phones,
sorry, their cell phones.
So the relationships are strong.
But we also know what we'redoing.
So there's a Churches Togethergroup for England, the one for
Great Britain.
But that Churches Togethergroup can't have a theological
position on conversion, forexample, because not everyone
(36:11):
believes in it, can't have atheological position on marriage
.
So I quite like the fact that Ilead the Evangelical Alliance
which, by the way, that term isnot redundant here but it does
need redeeming a little bit.
But I lead the EvangelicalAlliance which has some
boundaries to it.
But then we engage in widerunity across all formations of
the UK with wider parts of thechurch when that's helpful,
(36:33):
needed or beneficial and thatcan often be in public policy
settings.
Brian Stiller (36:37):
Yeah, now I want to swing back again to the
evolving of the alliance in theUK from its original formation
in 1846.
Can you take us back to that1846 moment and give us, in your
view, a trace, the history thathas led to the ministry that
you're leading today?
What does that look like topeople who have no introduction
(37:01):
to evangelicals and don'tunderstand its history or its
makeup today?
Gavin Calver (37:07):
Yeah, I mean 180 years in 60 seconds we could
have a go, but it's way backwhen in 1846, like we said
before, it was not unity at anycost there was a level of
justice and a level of gatheringtogether for the sake of the
lost.
Then, throughout our historywe've been involved in basically
gospel initiatives and speakingup.
(37:28):
The UK Alliance's first thingthat had to be dealt with was
Darwinism.
In terms of publicly, that wastalked about at great length and
how we navigated that.
The UK Alliance spoke up reallystrongly against Hitler before
the war even started as well asduring the war.
The UK Alliance I found thisout recently when research for a
book I've just written.
The UK Alliance I found thisout recently when research for a
(37:50):
book I've just written.
I didn't know this till aboutsix months ago when Billy Graham
came to the UK and did hisHaringey events, which may not
mean anything on your side ofthe pond but over here were the
big stuff in the UK.
Haringey in the 50s was thestuff that everyone tells their
testimonies from and transformedthe UK in that generation.
They weren't going to be ableto happen because there was no
money and the UK EvangelicalAlliance underwrote the whole
(38:12):
thing spent every penny of itsreserves to make Haringey happen
in 1953, took 10 years torecover financially.
I'm not sure you'd be allowedto do it now because we're all
audited to a different level,but you'd love to think,
wouldn't you, that we would takethe same risk now for the sake
of the gospel.
It almost certainly wouldn't bestadium-type events, but the
(38:32):
same risk now for the sake ofthe gospel.
That would mean we gave awayeverything we had in order to
reach the lost.
That's an amazing part of ourhistory.
Then, more recently, theEvangelical Alliance started
something called the EvangelicalAlliance Relief Fund, which
some people might know as TearFund, one of the largest relief
and development organizations inthe world that was born out of
(38:53):
the Evangelical Alliance.
We also, in more recent years,started an organization called
Home for Good, which was aboutfostering and adoption.
So we've been involvedthroughout our history.
We've been involved in thosetwo prongs how do we make Jesus
known and how do we speak up onbehalf of the church within the
corridors of power?
So when I then took overleading EA, it was like let's
(39:15):
just get back to basics and makesure we do what we do.
We are a unity organization,but that unity can only be
defined by who's a member.
If you're membership based, youcan't unite those that aren't
your members.
So let's put a big focus onmembership.
We're a unity organization thatwants to grow the membership.
But then we do two thingsGospel we're like a tour guide
(39:36):
on the gospel.
We had that talking Jesus stuffI talked to you about.
We've just done finding Jesus.
How are people becomingChristians in the UK so that
people understand, how are theybecoming Christians?
Where are the opportunities andwhere are the opportunities and
where are all the resources forreaching people From within our
membership?
Here's all the stuff that wouldreally bless you to reach
people.
But then the voice bit.
How do we make sure?
In the media and with thegovernment and with local
(39:58):
council, we are speaking up andout on the issues that matter to
the church here.
So actually I think theEvangelical Alliance in the UK
is quite simple.
Why should every Christian inthe uk join it?
Who's an evangelical?
Well, because if you want tohave the voices the church heard
, give us your voice so we cantake it into the corridors of
power and unite yourself with somany others so we can make
jesus known.
That's why I changed themission statement of ea used to
(40:21):
be better together.
What does that mean?
Sounds like a political party.
It's now together, making jesusknown, because that's all we're
about.
We're not doing it on our own,we're going to do it together.
But we want to make Jesus knownin the UK.
Brian Stiller (40:35):
Secularization has been the byword in many of
our countries, especially inNorth America and through Europe
and the UK.
In the face of that, justlistening to what you're saying,
that is not intimidating you atall, is it?
Gavin Calver (40:51):
I think if we'd had this interview 18 months ago
it might have been slightlydifferent.
Not that I would have beenintimidated, but intimidated
more than now it feels.
I don't know if it's the samein your context, brian, but the
secular narratives are eatingone another for breakfast at the
moment.
They're just not working.
They're incoherent, they don'twork together.
(41:12):
There was a guy in this countrycalled Richard Dawkins, who
I've debated on the radio before, who was like the king of new
atheism, and he now describeshimself as a cultural Christian.
I'm not sure what that means,but that was unthinkable 20
years ago.
You've got writers like TomHolland.
You've got Oxbridge professorsevangelicals again.
You've got more members of theSenate, the Welsh Parliament,
(41:33):
who are evangelical than justabout any parliament in Europe.
You know you've got all kindsof.
My friend, justin Briley, hasdone this in a podcast in a book
called the Surprising Rebirthof God.
You know the landscape'schanged.
So the secular narrativesaren't working.
The supreme court recently inthe uk saying that no, to be a
woman means to be a biologicalwoman from birth.
(41:54):
Now, that was unthinkable 12months ago.
That the culture is changing.
So it's not just spirituallywell, no, it's spiritually but
sociologically.
I think winter's over too andthings are.
Things are moving on andsecularism offers no answers to
the questions the pandemicbrought up, to the questions
that the economic situationbrings up, to the questions that
(42:15):
what's coming out of NorthAmerica politically brings up.
Secularism has no answers.
Our culture feels hopeless Intothat.
Hope is a name.
His name is Jesus.
So it felt like secularism wastaking over the UK.
It feels like the tsunami isbeing pushed back a bit, but
let's not be naive enough tothink that it's over.
(42:35):
But I do think that the shootsof life are not in the secular
stable, they're in the church.
Brian Stiller (42:42):
Gavin, your father, Clive, Clive and I our
lives parallel for a number ofyears.
When he was heading up Youthfor Christ in UK, I was heading
up Youth for Christ in Canada.
Then, when he was headed up theAlliance, I headed up the
Canadian Alliance called theEvangelical Fellowship of Canada
.
And so, in listening to youtoday, I know the apple hasn't
(43:03):
fallen far from the tree and farfrom the tree, but, as you,
with your vision and enthusiasmand commitment, what are you
looking to, given this changethat you have seen manifest over
the last few months?
Where's your heart today andwhat do you see?
Gavin Calver (43:28):
unfolding as the Spirit leads over these coming
months.
I think we need to make themost of the moment we've prayed
for that I think we're nowliving in.
We have prayed and prayed andprayed in this land for the
ground to be more fertile to thegospel.
We've prayed and prayed andprayed for people to be
interested again.
We've prayed and prayed andprayed for a moment where you
wouldn't be hit with hostilitywhen you told your neighbour
that you followed Jesus.
(43:48):
And I think we're in thatmoment and my biggest prayer for
this year is let's not miss it.
The other thing I think iswitnessing is a muscle really,
and when I was young I was quitea good footballer, so it was
quite easy to have a six pack.
Let's say there's no chance now.
I'm a middle-aged man.
You build muscles when it'seasier, easier, and then you
hope that they will serve you inthe harder days.
(44:09):
I think we need to buildwitnessing muscles right now,
because the opportunity to reachout, to share is is really
great.
So that's my big hope for rightnow.
I also am very hopeful that thevoice of the church will
continue to be united butcontinue to speak up, and the
evangelical alliance was reallyclear on, really clear on LGBTQ
(44:29):
issues 10 years ago, no, 15years ago.
Nearly Some parts of the churchhave only joined the reality of
being clear on that in the lastcouple of years.
But I think there's a new senseof orthodoxy without compromise
.
When I look, I said to my boardI would stay for a decade if
they let me dream for a decade.
So I did a great 10-year planfor EA and it's a great bit of
work and I'm quite pleased withit.
But it can be summed up in onesentence this is how I see the
(44:52):
next decade for the UK church.
We need to hold our nervetheologically, without
compromise, and go for itwholeheartedly in sharing the
gospel, not one without theother.
I know great theologians don'tknow non-Christian.
I know people that want toshare the gospel but aren't sure
what it is.
Brian Stiller (45:13):
We need to hold those two things together and we
can see something remarkable inour day.
Gavin Calvert, thank you somuch for joining us on
Evangelical 360 today.
Gavin Calver (45:19):
Been a real pleasure.
God bless you.
Brian Stiller (45:22):
Thank you, gavin, for joining us today and for
helping us see what's going onbelow the surface in the UK and
its evangelical movements, andthank you for being a part of
the podcast.
I'd be grateful if you wouldsubscribe and share this episode
using hashtag Evangelical360.
If you'd like to learn moreabout today's guest, be sure to
(45:45):
check the show notes ordescription below, and if you
haven't already received my freee-book and newsletter, please
go to brianstillercom.
So thanks again for joining me.
Until next time, don't miss thenext interview.
Be sure to subscribe toEvangelical 360 on YouTube.
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm your host, Brian Stiller,and I'm pleased to share with
you another conversation withleaders, changemakers and
influencers impacting Christianlife around the world.
My guest today is Gavin Calvert, CEO of the Evangelical
Alliance in the UK.
The story of Christianity inthe United Kingdom is often told
(00:33):
as a slow decline, a nationdrifting away from the faith,
with increasingly empty pews andsecular headlines.
But is that the whole story?
Are evangelicals in Englandfading out or is there something
stirring beneath the surface, asort of resurgence or renewal?
Well, Gavin Calver is here tohelp us look beyond the
(00:56):
headlines and tell us if thereare in fact, signs of new life
breaking through across the UK.
So listen in and join theconversation on YouTube in the
comments below, and be sure tosubscribe and share this episode
using hashtag Evangelical360.
Gavin Calvert, so good to haveyou here on Evangelical360.
Gavin Calver (01:25):
It's brilliant to be with you.
Brian Stiller (01:26):
Gavin, it's amazing to me to watch what's
going on in the UK.
I mean your country.
The UK has the reputation ofbeing a graveyard of churches
and yet over the last few yearsthere's emerged out of your
country a ministry forevangelism that I've never seen
(01:47):
in my lifetime.
It's something to watch.
And for you, as director of theAlliance in the UK, what are
you observing that would producethis kind of initiative for
evangelism?
Gavin Calver (02:04):
Well, I think the culture's changed, I think the
temperature's changed and Ithink it's even more rapid.
I mean, things like Alpha andother stuff have been around a
long time that have impactedglobally, but in the last two
years I would say there's been atemperature change in the UK.
We're not living in revival,we're maybe not even quite in
awakening, but there's anopenness in the UK culture to
(02:25):
the gospel that there's not beenin my lifetime and I'm 45.
So for the best part of half acentury we've not had the
openness we have now, and that'squite remarkable.
But it's also quite new andit's very exciting.
What has produced that.
A work of the Holy Spirit isobviously the answer.
But let me be honest with youon one thing, brian.
I'm an optimistic, hope-filledevangelistic type.
(02:48):
So if I go into a room and tellpeople God's moving, everyone
says well, that's what you wouldsay.
However, in the last ninemonths I've seen the Lord do
stuff I've not seen in a longtime.
I've seen ridiculous responsesto talks.
I've seen engagement on thepublic transport around the
gospel.
We've seen all kinds offruitfulness.
But then our newspapers havestarted reporting it in the last
(03:10):
few months.
So the Times newspaper, whichis probably the most reputable
newspaper in the UK, reportedthat Gen Z forgive me, I can't
do the Z thing Gen Z are twiceas likely to not be atheists as
their parents Gen X.
So my kids twice as likely tonot be atheists as their parents
Gen X, so my kids twice aslikely to not be atheists as me.
Then three weeks later, theyreported an 87% increase in
(03:34):
sales of the Bible in the UK inthe last five years,
predominantly amongst youngpeople.
Now, the Bible wasn'tstruggling in the UK, it was
already the best-selling book bya long way.
But for its 87% increase, thefacts wasn't struggling in the
UK, it was already thebest-selling book by a long way,
but for its 87% increase.
Brian Stiller (03:52):
The facts are matching the anecdotes that the
Lord's moving in a new way.
Gavin, I want to come back tothat, but let's go back
historically.
The World Evangelical Alliancewas formed in the UK in 1846.
You hold the records of thatremarkable beginning and the
history.
Give us your accounting of howthat came about and then how
that has moved down to theAlliance as it's manifest today
(04:13):
under your leadership.
Gavin Calver (04:15):
Yeah, I mean.
The reason the UK EvangelicalAlliance is the oldest in the
world is because way back in1846, and forgive me, I love my
American brothers and sisters,so don't hear this wrong me now
but the Brits wouldn't unitewith the Americans initially
over the issue of slavery,because the Brits didn't own
slaves and many of the Americansstill did, and that was too big
(04:35):
an issue for the Brits to unite.
So from the very beginning forthe Evangelical Alliance, full
stop.
For the very beginning itwasn't unity at any cost.
There were always boundaries tothat and I think that's
important to remember.
There's a justice bent to whatwe do.
But then that obviously led tofurther conversations and the
World Evangelical Alliance wasborn and that's been an amazing
ministry globally.
(04:56):
That's made a difference.
I think Evangelical Alliance nowin the UK, as we head to 180
years old next year, we stillreally exist for the two things
we were started for to uniteevangelicals in sharing the
gospel in every corner of theUnited Kingdom and secondly, to
give a clear, effective,confident, united voice within
(05:17):
the corridors of power.
And so we change our posture.
So I think there's lots ofdifferent postures we have at
the moment.
We change our posture.
But the substance of the EA, inthe UK at least, has remained
largely the same over 180 years,with peaks and troughs in the
effectiveness of the ministry.
But it's quite something thatthe focus of the ministry
remains the same nearly 200years on.
Brian Stiller (05:40):
But you are a collection of so many cultures
and languages and peoples.
Your cultural landscape hasbeen manifestly changed.
How does that reflect itself inthe worshipping and the
witnessing aspect of theevangelical community?
Gavin Calver (05:58):
Yeah, I think for a start I mean way back in 1997,
a gentleman called Joel Edwardswas appointed into my role and
he's passed away now sadly.
But Joel was of Caribbeanheritage and it was said at that
point that you had a blackleader for the white churches.
That's not the case now in theUK.
(06:18):
It's not that we don't have I'mobviously a white leader but
the bottom line is about aquarter to a third of UK
evangelicals are of globalmajority heritage.
Now that's had a reallysignificant impact.
But what's interesting is thestyle changes like the wind but
the substance isn't compromisedon and actually issues like
immigration have led to allkinds of church growth.
(06:41):
Reverse mission has transformedthe prayer culture of my nation.
You know there's so manybenefits of it too.
But the landscape in the UK isremarkable and I live in London
as I would need to for my job.
London is probably the mostdiverse and yet relatively
united city in the world.
It's quite an amazing place andthe church can do something no
(07:02):
one else in London can do.
And the church can do somethingno one else in London can do.
We can get every tribe, everytongue, every age group, every
gender around the table together, fellowshipping and worshipping
together, we can do a unitythat nothing else in this
culture can do, and I thinkthat's the kind of unity Jesus
prayed for himself in John 17that the world would notice.
The world notices the unity ofthe church because it's powerful
(07:24):
and it goes beyond the dividesthat otherwise people build
walls around.
Brian Stiller (07:29):
Being part of the British Commonwealth, I'm
familiar with the power of theUK in our history and there's a
certain kind of arrogance withthat cultural power.
So I think about that as partof our history.
And yet to hear you talk aboutthose who have migrated into the
(07:50):
UK creating a kind of a unitywithin the church in England,
but that seems to be indistinction to the arrogance
that I have felt from the churchof England of the past
centuries.
Gavin Calver (08:08):
Let's talk about the Church in England.
Well, in the UK, actually,because it's four nations, but
the Church in the UK, not theChurch of England, because we'll
confuse ourselves as to whatwe're talking about.
We're not talking aboutdenomination, but the Church in
the United Kingdom is not in anyposition to be arrogant.
We're in a position to bedesperate, and that desperation
has led to a unity that I don'tthink places like the United
(08:31):
States wouldn't have the kind ofunity we've got in various
places, because it doesn't needit yet.
Still there's more of achurch-going culture, still
there's people turning up.
When you have a secular nation,you're forced to either run
together or just it's over.
So we're running together withpeople, but then also people are
coming to this nation, bringingthe gospel back to this nation
(08:51):
after it was sent from thisnation to all kinds of places,
and coming in and helping us out.
So actually in this season, Ithink the posture of the uk
church is one lord, please move.
We're desperate, but alsoplease send us people to change
the landscape, because we needhelp.
Brian Stiller (09:07):
So there's a humility in the church that
seems uncommon to its history.
Gavin Calver (09:15):
Yeah, there's a desperation.
There's a desperation.
It's been some of the recentgood news, like we shared
earlier and we might come backto again in a bit.
The Bible Society have justdone some research called the
Quiet Revival I think the name'sslightly unhelpful, but it
basically shows that 2 millionmore people go to church than
five years ago in the UK.
Those are significant numbersfor here.
(09:36):
We've just done some changingchurch research showing what's
different in the church from2021 until now.
Twice as many people arebecoming Christians through
local churches now as in 2021.
Things are changing.
Things are moving.
It feels like the recoverystarted.
The Lord's moving in power andthat's amazing.
But we got to a fairly low ebb,from which the cry of our hearts
(09:59):
was a desperate one, and theLord has sent us people from all
over the world and is changingour church.
I mean, for example, I have afriend who came here as a
reverse missionary from Ugandanever been on an aeroplane
before comes as a missionary,gets to Heathrow Airport, gets
his bags, he's got a decision tomake.
He's never made in his lifesomething to declare or nothing
to declare.
So he goes through something todeclare and he says to the guy
(10:23):
at customs I declare that JesusChrist is the son of God and by
believing you'll have life inhis name.
The guy in customs looks at himlike what's wrong with you.
So he says I declare Jesus diedfor you and they let him in,
which is good.
But we've had people come tothis nation to remind us that we
have something to declare, thatwe can't live on a history,
we've got to live in a current,that in this nation you've got a
(10:43):
strange mix-up.
In the UK Anyone older than meis kind of in a post-Christian
country.
Anyone younger than me is kindof in a pre-Christian country
and we've got to do all we canto communicate good news in the
right way and we're taking allthe help we can.
But this is an amazing time tobe part of the UK church, one of
the most dynamic multicultural.
I'm translated at least onceevery six weeks, most recently
(11:07):
into Punjabi for the first time,preaching at a church full of
Asian folks who've all come tofaith from other faiths Six
baptisms that morning.
God's moving powerfully.
But the UK church does not looklike the one people think they
see through Downton Abbey.
Brian Stiller (11:21):
You talk about the reverse missionary plan.
So someone's come from Africareally as a missionary to the UK
.
Describe for us how that works.
Gavin Calver (11:32):
It works the same as it's worked throughout
history.
Someone gets the call of God togo to a nation that in their
mind is not reached enough andthey go and bring good news.
Now it's really hard at first.
When this was first breakingthrough 20, 30, 40, 40 years ago
, it was a lot harder than now.
We're used to receivingmissionaries now in a different
(11:53):
way.
But what you'll often get aswell as you'll get a people
group moving here, and at firstthey will meet in a church
that's largely around their owndemographic.
Then by the second or thirdgeneration they have to say how
do we reach the community here?
And so we've got individualscoming, but we've also got
communities coming.
So what?
The Nigerian church who've comehere quite significantly, what
(12:14):
they've done for the prayer lifeof the evangelical church in
the UK is second to none.
What some of the Iranian churchhave taught us about
person-to-person evangelism islike nothing you'd experience,
what some of the recentUkrainian church coming in have
taught us about hospitality.
So it's mixed betweenindividuals coming as
(12:35):
missionaries and people groupscoming and then saying we live
here, this is our mission field.
But both of those have had quitean impact.
We live here, this is ourmission field, but both of those
have had quite an impact andwhat it's done, I think, is, in
some ways, the I don't reallylike this term, but, if you like
, the indigenous host communityhas been woken up to the fact
that we've got a mission fieldon our doorstep too.
You know, we, when there was adanger, would be like jonah in
(12:57):
jonah one, with the sailorshaving to wake us up and say how
can we be saved?
Actually, we've be woken up tothe fact that actually we need
to pray for the lost and we needto open our mouths about the
hope we have in Jesus.
And off the back of that, Ithink we're seeing the situation
change in this nation and I'mvery hopeful about the
generation after me and whatcomes next.
Brian Stiller (13:18):
Our history as evangelicals tends to gravitate
towards personal spirituality.
To what degree does theAlliance in the UK operate
within the public policy issuesof your day?
Gavin Calver (13:34):
Yeah, hugely.
I mean this is the.
I wish more people are joiningthe Evangelical Alliance in the
moment than any time for 25years.
I wish that was for the missionand evangelism work, but
actually it's for the advocacywork we do in the public square.
Access within the corridors ofpower is better than it's been
certainly this millennium.
Our ability to speak truth intothe House of Commons, the House
(13:57):
of Lords, scotland Yard, theSenate in Wales, stormont in
Northern Ireland, holyrood inScotland or 10 Downing Street,
wherever we're in those places,and what we do is we have a
membership model whereby we takethe voice of the members into
those places.
At the moment there's an awfullot being done around assisted
dying, although we challengethat and say actually we already
have assisted dying in the UKit's called palliative care.
(14:19):
What you're talking about isassisted suicide.
In the last nine months alonewe've met with hundreds of
members of parliament across thefour nations of the uk on that
issue.
We speak up.
We take the voice of the churchinto the corridors of power.
We the one issue throughout our180 years we've always spoken
on is freedom of religion andbelief.
Without fail, that's been thethe most important things
(14:40):
religious liberty issues.
But every day has its differentissues of that moment, and so
if you'd asked me a year ago, Iwouldn't have mentioned assisted
dying, because that came aboutquite quickly after our election
last summer.
Who knows what it might be in ayear's time, but there are
certain issues on which we speak, and my staff team have a full
time presence across all fourparliaments of the UK.
Brian Stiller (15:01):
What outcomes have you seen from that
engagement?
Gavin Calver (15:05):
Many, but my favourite one in my time.
I've been at EA for a decade.
My favourite one in my time wasthe UK government said they
wanted to inspect all youth workand Sunday schools in churches.
So you know, like you do withschools, they inspect schools.
They want to do that inchurches.
Public regulation of privatereligion at what point had I
moved to north korea?
(15:25):
I mean that, what a religiousliberty problem that is.
So we went in and we spoke onbehalf of all our membership,
which is 3 000 churches, 500organizations, 27 000
individuals, and we said there'sno way you can do this.
This is an absolute overstepinto religious liberty.
There's no way this is evenpossible.
It's not feasible, it's notplausible.
And because we spoke with onevoice, at least for then, for
(15:48):
the time being has been kickedinto the long grass because we
were able to explain theproblems.
My approach to public policyissues is let's assume they're
not against us, because a lot ofpeople assume the government
are against you.
Most of the time.
It's faith and literacy that'sthe problem.
Government are against you Mostof the time.
It's faith and literacy that'sthe problem, not an attack on
the church.
So we go into these spaces andpoint out unintended
(16:09):
consequences and then allow thegovernment to see that and adapt
policies.
To say, because this is not,however much I want it to be,
this is not a Christian countryanymore.
This is a country with aChristian heritage.
It operates the faith.
(16:29):
Literacy in the corridors ofpower is limited.
Brian Stiller (16:32):
However, the opportunities for the
Evangelical Alliance to engageare unlimited.
Transgender, lgbtq+, identityand rights.
How has the Alliance in the UKnavigated those waters?
Sensitive to the issues but atthe same time maintaining a
(16:57):
classic evangelical orthodoxy?
Gavin Calver (17:00):
My leadership of the Evangelical Alliance.
When I was preparing for thisrole, the Lord said to me two
things we need to be braver inthe years ahead than we've been,
and we need to be kinder thanwe've been.
The world makes those twothings exclusive.
They go together, and so we'retrying to be brave and kind on
every issue, particularly thisone Do.
I wish this wasn't the issue ofour day, probably, but it is,
(17:21):
so you deal with it.
Our position has always beenthat we don't think the theology
is all that complicated.
It's absolutely clear thatmarriage is between a man and a
woman and there's no room withinevangelical Christianity for
anything beyond that.
However, the pastoralimplications are incredibly
complicated.
So we have sought to gatherleaders to share experience.
We have sought to resourcepeople.
(17:42):
It was six years ago we firstput out our resource Transformed
, which is about how churchescan approach the issue of
transgenderism.
We've just redone it again.
The government have reallyreversed on that in about the
last six months and they'veactually agreed, largely without
realising it, with what wewrote five or six years ago.
On the same-sex marriage andLGBTQ relationships.
(18:03):
We have done something calledRelationships Matter, which is a
seven-week small group resourcefor churches to work through on
how to help people be orthodoxon the issue, but kind.
We've got 10 affirmationschurches use about human
flourishing.
We have resourced significantlyin this area and thousands of
churches have used what we'veproduced in this area and
(18:24):
thousands of churches have usedwhat we've produced.
We've also tried to frame it ina wider conversation, because in
some ways, the least excitingor interesting thing about a
person is their sexuality.
So we've tried to frame it in awider conversation what it
means to be human and I've donea whole set of resources on that
and what does it mean to behuman in the world of AI?
And what does it mean to behuman and flourish in our sexual
relationships.
What does it mean to be humanin community?
So we've done an awful lot,we've navigated it, but what we
(18:47):
haven't done is slip in any wayinto a liberal position on this
Because, to be honest, it's likewe're playing a big game of
Kaplunk I don't know if you havethat game in Canada, a big game
of Kaplunk and if you pull thisout, the marbles fall down and
the game is over.
You know there is no room inScripture for an affirming
position in our view, andtherefore we can't move.
(19:10):
We're just seeking to be kind.
Brian Stiller (19:13):
Gavin, you have such a wide variety of religious
traditions within theevangelical community.
How do you build those varyingtheological distinctives and the
style of ministry?
How do you bring them togetherin an evangelical alliance so
that there is cooperation andunity?
Gavin Calver (19:34):
So it's hard work because we've got over 80
streams, denominations ornetworks represented within our
membership.
That means that Sunday morningscan be fun, because I go to
church with my family on aSunday night.
Most Sunday mornings I'm outsomewhere.
You work out in the firstworship song where you are Not
the name of the church, nothingelse.
The first worship song tellsyou is it hands in the air or
(19:58):
hands in the pockets?
Do I fully release my innercharismatic self or do I retain
it a little?
My wife will say what time areyou home?
I'll say 1.46pm, because thatchurch has never gone over an
hour in 140 years.
Somewhere else, I'll sayhopefully today.
You know, it's the diversitythat we celebrate, but I think
one of the key things to us iswe keep the main things, the
main thing.
So we have a statement of faiththat people have to gather
(20:20):
around to be part of thealliance.
That is largely unchanged in180 years the statement of faith
.
There are issues we work off onthe sides, but the statement of
faith holds together.
We always are clear that wewill gather around the primary
and we will disagree on thesecondary, and that's okay, but
we can stand together.
But it's really important thatwe keep the main things, the
main things, and we know wherewe're going.
(20:41):
So it means within our alliance, our alliance.
I mean, yeah, you do have thegreatest difference of
expression on the sunday morningyou can imagine, but you have
the same theological convictionsand the same desire to see the
nation, one for jesus, thatdrives us forward together.
And we find that.
We find that things like theaforementioned sexuality, things
like our resources on freedomof religion and belief and what
(21:04):
your freedoms are to share thegospel and things like our stuff
on racism or our stuff onpublic engagement, public policy
.
Those unite because actuallypeople want to come together on
those things.
So we find the things thatunite, we drive forward together
.
And the only thing theEvangelical Alliance does
liberally in the UK is makefriends.
So we make friends, we humanizewhat it is.
(21:25):
Once you've had a meal togetherit's a lot easier to talk about
other things.
We don't hide away in an officeand tell everyone what to do.
We get out and about face toface.
I've met with over a thousandof our church leaders in the
last two years and I want to getaround the other 2000 in the
next year or so.
Brian Stiller (21:40):
Gavin, the Alliance in the UK was formed
just following the spectacularand remarkable leadership of
Wilberforce on the slavery issue.
Bringing that down to today,how does the alliance operate in
terms of the issues of justice,of immigration and other
justice related issues thatsurface within the body politic
(22:04):
in the UK?
Gavin Calver (22:05):
Yeah, I mean, let me just say on the Wilberforce
one, we're always very clearthat Wilberforce did that
alongside many, including OladuEquiano.
So it wasn't because one of thechallenges in the UK at times
is UK evangelicals have talkedabout, say, the abolition of the
slave trade as if that was justdone by white evangelicals,
when actually there was apartnership all the way along
which is quite significant to us.
(22:25):
We speak into the hard issuestoday.
There's interesting at themoment the government are trying
to bring in a definition ofIslamophobia.
Now that's quite an interestingpiece of work.
So we've met with governmentofficials in the last couple of
weeks on that and talked aboutactually what does it mean for
us to be a coherent society andto work together with other
people we might disagree with?
We've done a resource calledVisions of Justice and Hope to
(22:49):
help people, help those fromother ethnicities, because
tragically a number of people inchurches in the UK have
experienced forms of racism andwe think that's absolutely wrong
.
So we're calling that out andsaying how do we work together?
Issues of immigration obviouslydefine and divide politics like
almost nothing else.
So on those issues we make surewe're speaking up for the least
(23:12):
, the last and the lost, butwe're also speaking into a
society about the fact we needto have sensible conversations
about a number of these things.
So I think our proximitycertainly the way it works here
in the UK is our proximity tothe political world allows us to
be in conversations aroundthese things, but we have to be
careful how loud we are aboutthem outside of the room as well
, because my job is to lead theunity body that brings together
(23:36):
the UK's evangelicals, notconstantly speak out on really
hard issues that divide us.
So we have a number of theseconversations behind closed
doors.
On some of them we have policy.
On some of them we don't.
But what we will not stop doingis fighting for the least of
the last of the last, caring forthe poor, speaking up for
justice and sharing hope.
Brian Stiller (23:56):
Gavin, in North America, primarily the US,
you've got an interesting modelthat's been emerging over the
last few years of a Christiancommunity that wants to engage
in the public policy issues in away that would insist that
public policy adhere to theirChristian views or their sense
(24:20):
of what a Christian nationshould be like.
As you look at that as aparticular model that's manifest
today, how are you leading thealliance in the UK as it relates
to the relationship of thechurch towards governance and to
the body politic?
Gavin Calver (24:38):
Yeah, that's an interesting question.
I think it's slightly differenthere and it's very different.
I mean, I don't know if youwant to talk about this in a bit
, but being an evangelical heremeans something quite distinct,
I think, to what it means in theUS.
It is different, but I thinkfor us what it means in this
space is actually we want ourvoice to be heard.
So so often in politics in theUK the loudest boos come from
(25:05):
the cheapest seats, people thatactually haven't got that much
of a hold within the culture.
No one provides more commongood for the UK for free than
the church.
No one does.
Everything else has to behelped by the taxpayer.
We do so much to help thissociety.
So we want our voice to be heard.
We want to be seen, we want tobe in the conversation.
We want the Christian voice tobe understood.
We want our politicians tounderstand how many of us there
(25:26):
are, but we're not fighting sothat everyone's forced into a
form of Christendom.
We want our voice to be heardand us to be seen On things like
abortion or assisted dying.
We want people to realize thatactually the giver and taker of
life is the Lord and we wantthem to hear that, and we want
that voice to be heard alongsidethe other voices.
(25:46):
And so what we are trying to dois make sure that we have a
reasonable, theological, clear,compassionate, godly voice and
that we're around as many tablesas possible.
What we're not doing is sayingthis is a Christian country.
Therefore, boom, boom, boom,because I'm not really sure
that's the right reading of theUK in this moment.
(26:08):
We're a country with awonderful Christian heritage.
Let's not forget thoseChristian moments, but let's
also look into the future andwhat we want to see for our
children and our children'schildren.
Brian Stiller (26:19):
You spent years as Director of Youth for Christ
in the UK, which is anevangelistic outreach to young
people.
How has evangelism emergedwithin the UK over the last few
years and what changes themigration of people from other
countries?
What changes does that socialdemographic bring to how the
(26:42):
gospel is presented?
Gavin Calver (26:45):
Interesting.
I think the fundamental shifttaking place is from large
gatherings to everyone beinginvolved in witnessing.
I think that's going to taketime, but I think that's part of
the shift.
We've done some research as theEvangelical Alliance with some
others called Talking Jesus,which found that one in three
non-Christians want aconversation with a Christian
(27:05):
friend about their faith.
That's remarkable, isn't it?
One in three non-Christianswant to hear from a Christian
friend about their faith.
We thought for years they wantedto go on a course or they
wanted to hear a sermon or theywanted to hear a wonderful
apologetic.
Actually, they want to chat totheir friend and see we're
facing the same things in life.
What's different when you facethem with Jesus?
And so I think one of the bigchanges in evangelism in the UK
(27:25):
is big events will always workto some level.
But actually, how do we empowereveryone who loves jesus and
has a pulse to be a witness intheir day?
How do we move away from justmaking decisions to seeing
disciples as well, and how do wesee everyone playing their part
in this?
And how do we engage peoplewhere they are?
You know, I'll never forget howimpactful it was to me when I
(27:47):
first really realized that whenj meets the woman at the well,
the first question is can I havea drink?
He leads her and then a wholevillage to himself and he never
gets his drink.
It took me a few years torealize that he doesn't actually
get his drink, the very thinghe starts the conversation on,
but he starts with the drink.
In order to find common ground,they can have a conversation.
We want to see that shiftcontinue where all people are
(28:08):
playing their part in witnessing.
So we still do the big events,you still do the courses, you
still do the programs, but wealso have a full workforce doing
their best to make Jesus known.
I think one of the biggestdifferences that's come from
immigration on this is, goodnessme, the way that some parts of
the church and other parts ofthe world pray is like something
I've never encountered.
Parts of the church and otherparts of the world pray is like
(28:29):
something I've never encountered, and a lot of british
evangelicals overestimate theiractivities and underestimate
their preface and yet the waythat we've started praying for
the lost, the coordinated prayer, in recent years, it's no
surprise, is it, that we'reseeing shoots of life now in the
church, with so much prayingfor the lost taking place.
In fact, I was at a church justthe other week preaching Two
(28:50):
huge digital boards on the wall,digital notice boards.
One was a few names and one wasloads of names During the
notices.
They pressed a button and a fewnames went from the long list
to the shorter one.
They sang a song.
They all started dancing,having a party.
I'm like what's going on?
I said to the associate pastorwhat's happening here.
He said we have that list ofpeople we're praying for every
(29:15):
day to come to jesus, and whenany do we move them to the other
board and we have a littleparty here in church, because
what else would we becelebrating other than salvation
locally?
It's an amazing thing and we'remaking our witnessing a team
game, not an individual pursuit,and I just it's that kind of
stuff.
We're seeing change around theprayer.
We're seeing change aroundeveryone being involved and we
are really winter's over here.
We're seeing the signs ofspring spiritually.
Brian Stiller (29:35):
I'm interested in knowing how the Pentecostal
emphasis, which has seemed to besuch a powerful movement in the
UK, how that is changing thelandscape of faith and the
practice of worship andevangelism.
Gavin Calver (29:50):
Yeah, it would depend which part of
Pentecostalism we're speakingabout, but the fastest growing
Pentecostal network in the UKwould be the Redeemed Christian
Church of God.
When they plant a church, theyhire a flat in a community and
just pray for three months, 24-7, so that the ground is softened
for what they're then going todo.
Now I don't think that if theBaptist Union were planning a
(30:12):
church, I'm not sure that wouldbe the way they did it.
So you know, we're seeingdifferent encounters, different
experiences.
I think what you're alsofinding in Pentecostalism is an
awful lot of younger people aredesperate for the spiritual and
some of the encounter they'llhave in those settings, some of
the work of the spirit in thosesettings, some of the work of
the Spirit in those settings, issomething they're really drawn
to.
(30:33):
I also think that some otherparts of the church are not so
good at some discipleship stuffthat Pentecostals are good at,
from giving to praying, to otherthings.
So it's changing stuff for lotsof us.
But I think we're only at thestart of the change.
I think we're going to start.
We're hearing the sound of rain.
There's a lot more to come.
Brian Stiller (31:01):
The UK is comprised of four countries.
How does the alliance operate,given that you've got Irish,
Scottish, Welsh and Englishexpressions of the UK?
Gavin Calver (31:08):
For a country that voted to leave the European
Union for a moment.
We're incredibly good atworking across different nations
.
There's an irony to that.
We're quite good at doing fournations in one.
So I am the CEO of the UKEvangelical Alliance, but there
are national leaders in Scotland, wales, wales and northern
ireland.
(31:28):
So I was in scotland just lastweek.
I'm there ministering, but theleader in scotland is not me.
I'm the overarching leader, butwe have a scottish team leading
in scotland, we have a welshteam leading in wales and
northern irish team leading innorthern ireland, because most
of us would agree thatindigenous mission remains the
most effective way.
However, what we do is we areunited across those four nations
(31:49):
.
So we have the same macro plan.
We represent in a similar way,and it's interesting in the UK
too, because some powers aredevolved to those nations and
some remain in Westminster inLondon.
So there's a dance then aroundsome of the public policy stuff,
because some is done centrallyfor all four nations, some is
devolvedolved, and what we seekto do in this land is just make
(32:11):
sure that we understand some ofthe cultural differences.
So northern ireland's politicalsituation is very different to
the rest of the uk.
So, as an englishman, when Ipreach in northern ireland, I
don't mention politics.
It's best to stay away fromthat.
I don't fully understand it.
In a way I could.
So you need to know what thosetriggers are as well.
But we have an overarching team, but also within England,
because 84% of the population ofthe UK is in England.
(32:34):
However, england's verydifferent, so the danger would
be you'd have something reallyspecific for Wales but you'd
ignore the fact that NorthernEngland's very different to
Southern England.
So we did open an office in thenorth of England near
Manchester, so we've got some ofour work out of there.
So we understand those issuesbeing different and you can, in
the UK, be in danger of beingLondon centric.
(32:56):
So we've only got the peopleworking in and out of London
that need to be in London.
We've got offices in each ofthe other three nations and the
north of England.
Brian Stiller (33:05):
In working with a variety of groups.
It seems to me that you havereally majored on collaboration.
What is your biblical model ofcollaboration and how has that
been working in the Alliance inthe UK?
Gavin Calver (33:19):
Yeah, I mean the biblical model for the unity we
do comes back to Jesus' prayerin John 17, that we would be one
, and out of that it's with legs.
It's not just that we would beone, so that's good for us, it's
that the world might know.
So our whole aim is let's unitefor the sake of the lost.
It's unity with legs, and Ithink that really matters to us.
(33:42):
It's tangible.
John Stott wrote about John 17,that the unity Jesus talks
about must be tangible andoutward, and those are two
things that we are really keento make sure we're doing.
I think the other thing as well,though, is it's quite
interesting the EvangelicalAlliance, because we say to
people go deep locally, loveyour place, love your space.
(34:02):
We won't get in your way in yourzip code locally, go deep, but
be connected nationally.
So a lot of what we do also isabout the macro, and then we
pray for, cheer on and supportthe church in doing the micro in
each community too, so there'sa level of trust relationship
that makes it possible.
One of the beautiful thingsabout this land is it's big
(34:25):
enough to be significant, butit's small enough for you to
know most of the people you needto know.
So if, if something major washappening in a week's time and I
had to ring 25 people to getthem on a Zoom call or, even
better, in a room to deal withsomething I know who those are,
because this nation is stillmanageable and I think that
makes the job easier than I.
(34:46):
Don't know how people evenbegin to start leading something
like I do in the US orsomewhere else, because the
scale is just another.
It's just mind blowing.
Brian Stiller (34:55):
Given the dynamic change going on within the
religious community in the UK,how does the Evangelical
Alliance interface with theRoman Catholic, the Church of
England and with other religions?
Gavin Calver (35:09):
Well, the Church of England, for a start,
historically didn't join EA lotsbut are joining a lot more at
the moment.
Part of that is because of thelack of clarity within that
denomination on some of theissues we talked about earlier.
So they're looking to us in anew way.
So the Church of England, a lotof the Church of England, would
be part of us.
But Catholics, greek Orthodox,all kinds of groups of the
(35:29):
church would never join aschurch members of the
Evangelical Alliance.
But what I do in my role is Irepresent evangelicals in spaces
with those kind of leaders.
So Archbishop Angelos, who runsthe Greek Orthodox Church here,
cardinal Nichols, who runs theCatholic Church here.
I'd often be at breakfastgatherings or political
gatherings where it needs to bea wider Christian voice that
(35:51):
comes together.
So the relationships are thereand they're strong.
Everyone has each other's phonenumbers on their mobile phones,
sorry, their cell phones.
So the relationships are strong.
But we also know what we'redoing.
So there's a Churches Togethergroup for England, the one for
Great Britain.
But that Churches Togethergroup can't have a theological
position on conversion, forexample, because not everyone
(36:11):
believes in it, can't have atheological position on marriage
.
So I quite like the fact that Ilead the Evangelical Alliance
which, by the way, that term isnot redundant here but it does
need redeeming a little bit.
But I lead the EvangelicalAlliance which has some
boundaries to it.
But then we engage in widerunity across all formations of
the UK with wider parts of thechurch when that's helpful,
(36:33):
needed or beneficial and thatcan often be in public policy
settings.
Brian Stiller (36:37):
Yeah, now I want to swing back again to the
evolving of the alliance in theUK from its original formation
in 1846.
Can you take us back to that1846 moment and give us, in your
view, a trace, the history thathas led to the ministry that
you're leading today?
What does that look like topeople who have no introduction
(37:01):
to evangelicals and don'tunderstand its history or its
makeup today?
Gavin Calver (37:07):
Yeah, I mean 180 years in 60 seconds we could
have a go, but it's way backwhen in 1846, like we said
before, it was not unity at anycost there was a level of
justice and a level of gatheringtogether for the sake of the
lost.
Then, throughout our historywe've been involved in basically
gospel initiatives and speakingup.
(37:28):
The UK Alliance's first thingthat had to be dealt with was
Darwinism.
In terms of publicly, that wastalked about at great length and
how we navigated that.
The UK Alliance spoke up reallystrongly against Hitler before
the war even started as well asduring the war.
The UK Alliance I found thisout recently when research for a
book I've just written.
The UK Alliance I found thisout recently when research for a
(37:50):
book I've just written.
I didn't know this till aboutsix months ago when Billy Graham
came to the UK and did hisHaringey events, which may not
mean anything on your side ofthe pond but over here were the
big stuff in the UK.
Haringey in the 50s was thestuff that everyone tells their
testimonies from and transformedthe UK in that generation.
They weren't going to be ableto happen because there was no
money and the UK EvangelicalAlliance underwrote the whole
(38:12):
thing spent every penny of itsreserves to make Haringey happen
in 1953, took 10 years torecover financially.
I'm not sure you'd be allowedto do it now because we're all
audited to a different level,but you'd love to think,
wouldn't you, that we would takethe same risk now for the sake
of the gospel.
It almost certainly wouldn't bestadium-type events, but the
(38:32):
same risk now for the sake ofthe gospel.
That would mean we gave awayeverything we had in order to
reach the lost.
That's an amazing part of ourhistory.
Then, more recently, theEvangelical Alliance started
something called the EvangelicalAlliance Relief Fund, which
some people might know as TearFund, one of the largest relief
and development organizations inthe world that was born out of
(38:53):
the Evangelical Alliance.
We also, in more recent years,started an organization called
Home for Good, which was aboutfostering and adoption.
So we've been involvedthroughout our history.
We've been involved in thosetwo prongs how do we make Jesus
known and how do we speak up onbehalf of the church within the
corridors of power?
So when I then took overleading EA, it was like let's
(39:15):
just get back to basics and makesure we do what we do.
We are a unity organization,but that unity can only be
defined by who's a member.
If you're membership based, youcan't unite those that aren't
your members.
So let's put a big focus onmembership.
We're a unity organization thatwants to grow the membership.
But then we do two thingsGospel we're like a tour guide
(39:36):
on the gospel.
We had that talking Jesus stuffI talked to you about.
We've just done finding Jesus.
How are people becomingChristians in the UK so that
people understand, how are theybecoming Christians?
Where are the opportunities andwhere are the opportunities and
where are all the resources forreaching people From within our
membership?
Here's all the stuff that wouldreally bless you to reach
people.
But then the voice bit.
How do we make sure?
In the media and with thegovernment and with local
(39:58):
council, we are speaking up andout on the issues that matter to
the church here.
So actually I think theEvangelical Alliance in the UK
is quite simple.
Why should every Christian inthe uk join it?
Who's an evangelical?
Well, because if you want tohave the voices the church heard
, give us your voice so we cantake it into the corridors of
power and unite yourself with somany others so we can make
jesus known.
That's why I changed themission statement of ea used to
(40:21):
be better together.
What does that mean?
Sounds like a political party.
It's now together, making jesusknown, because that's all we're
about.
We're not doing it on our own,we're going to do it together.
But we want to make Jesus knownin the UK.
Brian Stiller (40:35):
Secularization has been the byword in many of
our countries, especially inNorth America and through Europe
and the UK.
In the face of that, justlistening to what you're saying,
that is not intimidating you atall, is it?
Gavin Calver (40:51):
I think if we'd had this interview 18 months ago
it might have been slightlydifferent.
Not that I would have beenintimidated, but intimidated
more than now it feels.
I don't know if it's the samein your context, brian, but the
secular narratives are eatingone another for breakfast at the
moment.
They're just not working.
They're incoherent, they don'twork together.
(41:12):
There was a guy in this countrycalled Richard Dawkins, who
I've debated on the radio before, who was like the king of new
atheism, and he now describeshimself as a cultural Christian.
I'm not sure what that means,but that was unthinkable 20
years ago.
You've got writers like TomHolland.
You've got Oxbridge professorsevangelicals again.
You've got more members of theSenate, the Welsh Parliament,
(41:33):
who are evangelical than justabout any parliament in Europe.
You know you've got all kindsof.
My friend, justin Briley, hasdone this in a podcast in a book
called the Surprising Rebirthof God.
You know the landscape'schanged.
So the secular narrativesaren't working.
The supreme court recently inthe uk saying that no, to be a
woman means to be a biologicalwoman from birth.
(41:54):
Now, that was unthinkable 12months ago.
That the culture is changing.
So it's not just spirituallywell, no, it's spiritually but
sociologically.
I think winter's over too andthings are.
Things are moving on andsecularism offers no answers to
the questions the pandemicbrought up, to the questions
that the economic situationbrings up, to the questions that
(42:15):
what's coming out of NorthAmerica politically brings up.
Secularism has no answers.
Our culture feels hopeless Intothat.
Hope is a name.
His name is Jesus.
So it felt like secularism wastaking over the UK.
It feels like the tsunami isbeing pushed back a bit, but
let's not be naive enough tothink that it's over.
(42:35):
But I do think that the shootsof life are not in the secular
stable, they're in the church.
Brian Stiller (42:42):
Gavin, your father, Clive, Clive and I our
lives parallel for a number ofyears.
When he was heading up Youthfor Christ in UK, I was heading
up Youth for Christ in Canada.
Then, when he was headed up theAlliance, I headed up the
Canadian Alliance called theEvangelical Fellowship of Canada
.
And so, in listening to youtoday, I know the apple hasn't
(43:03):
fallen far from the tree and farfrom the tree, but, as you,
with your vision and enthusiasmand commitment, what are you
looking to, given this changethat you have seen manifest over
the last few months?
Where's your heart today andwhat do you see?
Gavin Calver (43:28):
unfolding as the Spirit leads over these coming
months.
I think we need to make themost of the moment we've prayed
for that I think we're nowliving in.
We have prayed and prayed andprayed in this land for the
ground to be more fertile to thegospel.
We've prayed and prayed andprayed for people to be
interested again.
We've prayed and prayed andprayed for a moment where you
wouldn't be hit with hostilitywhen you told your neighbour
that you followed Jesus.
(43:48):
And I think we're in thatmoment and my biggest prayer for
this year is let's not miss it.
The other thing I think iswitnessing is a muscle really,
and when I was young I was quitea good footballer, so it was
quite easy to have a six pack.
Let's say there's no chance now.
I'm a middle-aged man.
You build muscles when it'seasier, easier, and then you
hope that they will serve you inthe harder days.
(44:09):
I think we need to buildwitnessing muscles right now,
because the opportunity to reachout, to share is is really
great.
So that's my big hope for rightnow.
I also am very hopeful that thevoice of the church will
continue to be united butcontinue to speak up, and the
evangelical alliance was reallyclear on, really clear on LGBTQ
(44:29):
issues 10 years ago, no, 15years ago.
Nearly Some parts of the churchhave only joined the reality of
being clear on that in the lastcouple of years.
But I think there's a new senseof orthodoxy without compromise
.
When I look, I said to my boardI would stay for a decade if
they let me dream for a decade.
So I did a great 10-year planfor EA and it's a great bit of
work and I'm quite pleased withit.
But it can be summed up in onesentence this is how I see the
(44:52):
next decade for the UK church.
We need to hold our nervetheologically, without
compromise, and go for itwholeheartedly in sharing the
gospel, not one without theother.
I know great theologians don'tknow non-Christian.
I know people that want toshare the gospel but aren't sure
what it is.
Brian Stiller (45:13):
We need to hold those two things together and we
can see something remarkable inour day.
Gavin Calvert, thank you somuch for joining us on
Evangelical 360 today.
Gavin Calver (45:19):
Been a real pleasure.
God bless you.
Brian Stiller (45:22):
Thank you, gavin, for joining us today and for
helping us see what's going onbelow the surface in the UK and
its evangelical movements, andthank you for being a part of
the podcast.
I'd be grateful if you wouldsubscribe and share this episode
using hashtag Evangelical360.
If you'd like to learn moreabout today's guest, be sure to
(45:45):
check the show notes ordescription below, and if you
haven't already received my freee-book and newsletter, please
go to brianstillercom.
So thanks again for joining me.
Until next time, don't miss thenext interview.
Be sure to subscribe toEvangelical 360 on YouTube.
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