July 11, 2025 • 44 mins
What happens when heritage, calling and global vision converge in one leader's life? Dr. Lisa Pak's story offers a compelling answer.
Born in Toronto to Korean immigrant parents, Lisa's journey defies conventional paths. Though academically driven toward medicine, a teenage encounter with Ecclesiastes sparked an existential question that redirected her life: "What lasts longer than the body? The soul." This realization set her on an unexpected path to ministry—one that would eventually lead her around the world.
Her perspective on Korean Christianity provides fascinating insights into one of modern history's most remarkable church growth stories. The prayer-driven fervor that transformed Korea from a devastated post-war nation to the world's second-largest missionary-sending country reveals something profound about faith born of desperation. "I believe it was out of those seeds sown by foreign missionaries who literally gave their lives," Lisa explains, noting how those buried in Korean soil never witnessed the fruit their sacrifice would yield.
Now leading Finishing the Task alongside Pastor Rick Warren, Lisa works to unite churches globally around the Great Commission. Using 2033—marking 2,000 years since Christ's ministry—as what she calls an "Ebenezer moment," this initiative fosters collaboration across denominational and cultural lines. "I believe the Great Commission was designed to be done by a unified body of Christ," she states, suggesting that division itself may be our greatest obstacle to fulfilling Jesus' command.
Perhaps most compelling is Lisa's candid reflection on being a woman in leadership. The journey from never imagining ordination to her current global role, involved both personal wrestling and the intervention of unexpected allies—men who broke glass ceilings she couldn't break herself. "For women who feel called to lead, it's not just a struggle of calling, it's an existential struggle," she explains, offering hope to those navigating similar paths.
As global Christianity's center shifts toward younger nations in the Global South, Lisa remains unwaveringly optimistic: "I believe in a God who has never lost a generation and He will not start now." Her story reminds us that faith transcends cultural boundaries, generational divisions, and traditional limitations when anchored in timeless biblical narratives.
You can learn more about Finishing the Task through their website, Facebook and Instagram.
And you can share this episode using hashtag #Evangelical360 and join the conversation online!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brian Stiller (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm your host, brian Stiller,and I'm pleased to share with
you another conversation withleaders, changemakers and
influencers those impactingChristian life around the world.
We'd love for you to be a partof the podcast by sharing this
episode.
Use hashtag Evangelical360, andjoin the conversation on
(00:33):
YouTube in the comments below.
My guest today is Reverend DrLisa Pak, a second-generation
Korean-Canadian who has studiedin both the US and Canada, has
pastored across Asia and NorthAmerica and is now a catalyst
for church growth and missionall around the world.
Speaking with Lisa is animportant reminder that the
(00:56):
baton of leadership must alwaysbe passed to the next generation
.
She currently leads a globalinitiative called Finishing the
Task, which is a network ofpeople and churches focused on
mission and reaching the worldwith the message of Jesus Christ
.
In our conversation, you'llhear the year 2033 come up from
(01:17):
time to time.
This is a simple reminder thatJesus of Nazareth lived and died
2,000 years ago, in 33 AD,which makes 2033 a meaningful
millennial marker, a reminderthat he is here among us and
will return.
Join me as Reverend Dr Lisa Pakinspires us with this message
(01:39):
and the work of the globalchurch.
And the work of the globalchurch.
Lisa, thanks so much forjoining us today on Evangelical
360.
Lisa Pak (01:51):
Thank you for having me, Truly thank you for having
me.
Brian Stiller (01:54):
Lisa, you were not born in Korea, but you were
born in Canada.
Lisa Pak (01:59):
Yes, toronto, canada, born and raised yep.
Brian Stiller (02:09):
But you have close linkage to your Korean
community.
Lisa Pak (02:11):
I do, in the first place because we're an immigrant
family and our grandparentsfrom Korea came to live with us,
so our home culture is veryKorean in some sense.
Having said that, we are animmigrant family, so it's a
little bit diluted because ofthe distance from the
geographical distance from theculture.
But I grew up 100%.
I am Canadian through andthrough and when the opportunity
came for me to go back to Koreafor ministry it was hard.
(02:33):
I did not want to go.
I didn't feel a personalaffinity to my people group and
my heritage and my culture.
I was like no, I'm Canadian.
Brian Stiller (02:40):
Your life began here in Canada.
You trained for ministry.
Was this part of your familyheritage?
Lisa Pak (02:47):
It wasn't.
In fact, both my parents, afterI got older and you get to
understand the rhythms of lifeand your parents are human
beings and not just mom and dadwe started talking about how
challenging immigrant life wasfor them and, as young adults
who came and got married here,how their faith was stretched
when they started having afamily and they grew faster and
(03:07):
deeper because of the challengesof immigrant life.
So they admittedly say thatthey were probably younger
Christians when they firstimmigrated here to get married.
Brian Stiller (03:16):
And so were you a person of faith, young in life.
Lisa Pak (03:19):
Yes, because that's one thing I do 100% credit my
parents for.
Because that's one thing I do100% credit my parents for, even
as they were growing deeper intheir faith, they had made a
commitment to themselves, toeach other, to the family, to
God.
We will raise our kids in thechurch in the faith, teaching
them to pray.
I remember my mom, in terms ofteaching us how to tithe, saying
back then, when we had change,when we were kids, 10% of
(03:40):
whatever allowance we got.
I remember her saying don'tgive change from your pockets,
not because change is a moral,immoral thing, but she wanted to
show and teach us to thinkahead about what you give.
So don't just pull it out ofyour pocket on Sunday and say,
oh, I've got to give it.
You go to the bank, get cleanbills and then you give it.
So these things that my parentstaught us when we were young it
(04:02):
was in a Christian home and Idon't remember not ever
believing in God.
And then I do remember themoments where it gradually
became very personal.
So childhood conversion, as theReverend Billy Graham would say
, it is my experience.
It wasn't one hard moment.
I always I look back and I'm sograteful to my parents.
For that I mean certainly hardmoments in life and in immigrant
(04:23):
life, but that one thing Idefinitely owe to my parents.
Brian Stiller (04:27):
But you ended up as a pastor.
How did that happen?
Lisa Pak (04:30):
So I'm a good Asian kid, brian.
I was like I'm going to getinto med school and I loved it.
I'm academically wired, notnecessarily because my ethnicity
, it's just the way that Godcreated me.
I was automatically the Asiankid that said, not because my
parents pressured me, but I waslike I need to get the A plus.
And I remember my mom actuallysaying you know, it's okay to
get a B, which is not thetraditional or the stereotypical
(04:53):
way that Asian parents approachtheir kids.
But I was very academicallydriven.
I wanted to get into medicineand at that time I was reading.
I was thinking I think I waslike 13.
I was reading Ecclesiastes.
And then, you know, with thelimited experience and lens of a
13 year old, I'm likeeverything is meaningless.
You know all everything.
(05:13):
Everyone's ends up dying, likewhat is the point of all this?
And I remember thinking my bestfriend's mom at the time had
gotten cancer.
So I'm like, oh, I'll justdiscover the cure for cancer, as
ambitious as 13 year olds canget.
And then, because I was readingthrough Ecclesiastes, I went
through this mental processwhere it's like, but if I find a
cure for cancer, people aregoing to die anyway.
(05:34):
And then.
So what lasts longer than thebody, it's the soul.
And somehow that clicked and Iwas like I'm going to do
something in ministry.
When I was 16, I did tell myparents because my mom had asked
my mom.
Apparently this is her side ofthe story she didn't cry in
front of me when I was 16, butshe did cry and it was because
(05:56):
she was like being a femalepastor in a Korean church,
because that's where I grew upand that was all I knew.
It was so hard and she's likeshe cried.
She called my grandmother hermom and my grandmother was
crying and my mom's story goesshe was crying louder than me.
So I was like, why are youcrying?
And apparently she was cryingbecause she was so happy.
Brian Stiller (06:17):
Oh, and yet your mother was fearful here.
my daughter is going to be awoman in a Korean church and
they're going to put her downbecause she's female,
Lisa Pak (06:25):
yeah, and all the other obstacles that I couldn't
even imagine, right, just allthe subtleties of that.
But my grandmother had wantedmy mom or her younger sister.
She's only got two kids, myaunt and my mom.
She wanted my mom, who's theolder sister, to go to seminary.
My mom said no way.
Like in that day and age,especially in Korea, the women
just went to seminary to becomepastor's wives.
(06:45):
And she's like I'm not livingthat life and I 100% understand
it.
So when my grandmother heardthat I, out of my own volition,
was like I want to get intoministry, she took that as an
answer to years and years ofprayer.
And I never knew this until Igraduated, or close to graduated
, seminary because my parentsdidn't want to put that
spiritual layer of pressure onme.
(07:06):
It was my own choice in thatsense, but looking back I can
certainly see God's hand in this.
Brian Stiller (07:12):
Okay, let's go back to Korea.
South Korea.
A fascinating country, one thatout of the Second World War
emerged as one of the mostdynamic Christian churches in
the world Complex, feisty,combative, and yet in the world
today, at least within theevangelical mission community,
(07:36):
south Korea is only second tothe US for missionary sending.
So let's circulate back to whydid the gospel take such root
and accelerate in those fewdecades, in the last half of the
20th century?
Lisa Pak (07:52):
Wow, yeah, that's such a rich question because, being
born and raised in Canada in agrant, you know a diaspora
Korean church but one doesn'tlearn mission history in your
Sunday school class.
One doesn't learn missionhistory in your Sunday school
class.
So it took me to go back toKorea and trace a lot of that
lineage and even in seminarychurch history focused on a lot
of Western church history.
(08:12):
I did not know much about theEast and there are a couple of
reasons that come to the top ofmy mind.
One is that, yes, the Koreanpeople did respond, but they
responded out of suchdesperation that the war and
Japanese colonization beforethat created almost this vacuum
of hope and such desperation.
Stories about how compassionand world vision came out of the
(08:35):
orphans that came out of thewar, my mom being born in
December 1953, like a few monthsafter the ceasefire, like there
was nothing ceasefire, likethere was nothing.
If I look at pictures of whenmy just a handful of when my
grandparents were young adults,not even when they were kids, my
dad's pictures, my mom's it'slike a different world.
(08:55):
I couldn't even imagine beingborn and raised there.
So I imagine that just thecontext into which Korea was
coming out of with all thatturmoil, all that political
instability, the poverty, thebroken families, literally
generational trauma, from, again, pre-japanese colonization to
Japanese colonization, topost-war, post-ceasefire Korea.
(09:20):
I think there was a lot thatthe nation had just in
desperation, was like we'll takewhatever it is that can help.
And there were greatmissionaries.
I think this is the other piece.
When you go to Korea I didn'tknow about this until I visited
there Some of the Korean pastorsfrom Unri Church, which is
where I was serving.
They took us out to us Englishsecond gen English speaking
(09:41):
pastors out to the cemetery offoreign missionaries.
And it moves you deeply becauseI feel like the blessings that
Korea was able to reap andreceive came from those outside
of our people group who just inobedience to God, went,
literally gave their lives, areburied in that cemetery and
(10:04):
though their eyes could not seewhere Korea has gone, I believe
that it was out of those seedsthat were sown and then the
external circumstances that Godcreates in his sovereignty that
kind of really lined up so thatthe Korean people, the gospel
seeds, were sown, the soil wascultivated and God caused it to
(10:24):
grow.
That's how I have begun tounderstand that deep legacy and
the kindness of God.
Brian Stiller (10:31):
When you look at Korea in the 20th century, you
have these large mega churches,for example the Full Gospel
Church in Seoul, pastor YounggiCho, 800,000 members, or some
unaccountable number, yeahastronomical, it's hard to even
imagine.
So what was there in that worldthat gave allowance for these
(10:56):
huge churches?
How did that come about?
Lisa Pak (10:59):
It's such an interesting phenomenon too, and
there's probably somebody elsethat has done the academic
research behind it.
But I almost feel like Koreabeing such a communal culture,
you know, family oriented,community oriented, I think that
when the gospel started to takeseed and people were hungry for
it and they just gather.
The other thing about Korea, asopposed to Canada, it is a
(11:22):
peninsula.
You don't have much to go.
You're not going to go northbecause of the 38th parallel.
You're not going to go out tothe sea and gather where.
So it's almost like thegeographical borders, like where
else are they going to goexcept to congregate in these
big areas?
Most of the, a lot of them, arein Seoul, because it's the big
city and just the landmass andgeography, like you've got to
(11:43):
gather somewhere.
Canada's got this huge landmassthat we can literally spread out
.
So I think a little bit of thathas to do with it.
But I think it is mostly thecommunal undertones of our
culture that let's gathertogether.
We love gathering together, welove eating together, morning
prayer.
There's power in numbers.
It is the tie that binds, andwhen it's saturated and
(12:04):
undergirded by the vision thatGod can only give to his people,
I think there was such akindness and a mercy and a gift
there that God gave to theKorean church.
Brian Stiller (12:12):
Remarkable was the early morning prayer, 5 am
prayers at the mountain orsomeplace, and this would
congregate thousands of peopleon a daily basis.
Lisa Pak (12:23):
Yep yep, there are many things that can be
challenging about a traditionalKorean culture.
That one thing.
If there was one thing andthere's many things I love about
the Korean culture that onething about the Korean church.
I'm like we dare not give upever.
I do feel like it was born outof a certain moment in history
in the Korean church.
(12:44):
But to remember that and to goto God in prayer, my parents did
that even in Toronto.
They would wake up at like 4,4.30, go to morning prayer at 5,
5.30, go to work On Wednesdaynights.
They would have small groupFriday nights.
We would go to church Saturdays, there would be events and it
was just constant and they wereable to continue to do it
(13:05):
because I think there was astrength in that, there was
purpose in that prayer and Idon't doubt for a second.
It's because of that prayerthat the Korean church has
become what it has, with themissionary focus, with the focus
on the world, and the lack ofprayer is going to disempower
the church and the individualChristian.
You can't get away from prayer.
Brian Stiller (13:26):
But as I travel about in various countries I was
thinking of Mongolia andKazakhstan and China and other
places that I've been to frontand center are Chinese-led or
Korean-led churches.
So the missionary activity ofthe Southern Korean community is
historic.
No other country of that sizehas done and is doing what it is
(13:50):
doing in missions.
What is there about the spiritor the society that drives them
to be these world evangelists?
Lisa Pak (14:01):
I think it was a demonstration of foreigners,
because they were foreigners,all the missionaries that
brought the gospel and the debtof grace that is very
deep-seated.
And then I think it was justthis compulsion from the inside,
the love of Christ, thatcompels us to go.
I can speak very specificallyto the pastors in the Korean
(14:21):
community that I served under HaYoung-jo Mok-sanim, reverend
Lim Im, hyun-soo Mok-sa-nim inMississauga, Toronto, and a few
others.
They were all mentored anddiscipled by Campus Crusade for
Christ, which has that very deep.
We got to go evangelize theworld and there was a generation
of pastors in that demographicthat were nourished and
(14:43):
discipled with that kind ofvision and it trickled down to
many of the megachurches thatthey ended up founding and
leading.
So I think that that definitelyhas something to do with it,
like the vision that was passedon from these missionaries that
again literally gave up theirlife.
There's something about thatcontinuity that God honors, not
necessarily from one peoplegroup and within that, but
(15:04):
certainly in his kingdom.
Not necessarily from one peoplegroup and within that, but
certainly in his kingdom.
I have learned, brian, god'skingdom unfolds like no other
empire, no other kingdom on thisearth, and when I look back at
the heritage of the KoreanChristian faith.
There was a lot of grace.
Where God, I can see hissovereign hand.
The further you go back inhistory, a little bit clearer it
(15:24):
is, and I'm not sure exactlywhere the Lord is headed today.
But I do know that if wecontinue in obedience his word
does not come empty.
So I do feel like there's a lotof intertwining and if you were
to press me for a hard and fast, research-based answer I would
have to go back to.
It is by the grace of God.
Why us, why not the Japanese?
(15:44):
Why not other South Asia?
Why not Canada?
Why this tiny country, thispeninsula country that came out
of post-war and part of methinks because God will not
share his glory with anybody andthe only way that a tiny
country is able to do what itdoes in the mission world is
because God allows it and Godempowers it.
That's it.
Brian Stiller (16:05):
Okay, here you are.
Today.
You're a global strategist forfinishing the task.
An interesting line workingwith Rick Warren.
Yes, Give us an overlay of whatthat's about.
Lisa Pak (16:15):
Oh man, First, do you know, working with Pastor Rick
Warren has been amazing.
He's a very particular style ofleader for a particular
generation.
Brian Stiller (16:24):
He.
He was pastor of Saddleback.
Church in California.
Lisa Pak (16:28):
Yes.
Brian Stiller (16:28):
Writer of a purpose-driven major book that
had enormous sales.
Lisa Pak (16:33):
Yeah, which was translated into Korean.
And the irony or not the irony,the great thing about this
whole story is that my parentsread Pastor Rick's book for 40
days and the church had tied itto 40 days of prayer, even
before I knew of Pastor Rick,because I was just a kid growing
up and they had, with churchleaders, gone to visit
(16:55):
Saddleback because in thatseason of our church history we
were thinking about building abuilding, the one that is there
right near Pearson Airport, andthey had gone to tour many of
the megachurch buildings just sothey can get an idea of you
know how to make a functionalbuilding that is for the rising
generations.
And Salavak was one of thechurches that they visited.
So when I joined Pastor RickWarren with finishing the task,
(17:18):
I think it was like a moment.
It just tickled my parents toknow that who could have
scripted this the way that theLord has?
So yes, and so finishing thetask is wholly about the Great
Commission, bringing unity intothe body of Christ and
mobilizing the church for thesake of the Great Commission.
So it aligns with my experiencein the Korean church, my love
(17:39):
for the church, I believe in thechurch, I believe that the
Great Commission was given tothe church.
It is our responsibility andprivilege, and that's where
Pastor Rick's heart is.
How do we mobilize the churchfor the Great Commission?
And so that's where I feel veryblessed and privileged to work
on the team and just serve underhis leadership.
Brian Stiller (17:57):
So the idea of finishing the task is built
around the year 2033.
Lisa Pak (18:02):
Yes.
Brian Stiller (18:04):
Yes, that's obviously the 2, 2000 years
since the life of Christ on thisearth.
So is that a kind of a magicalyear.
Does 2000 years matter, or isit a kind of a promo idea?
Lisa Pak (18:19):
I need to make this clear, and I'll look right at
the camera it is not aneschatological date that we
proclaim that Jesus will.
Brian Stiller (18:25):
Eschatological meaning.
Lisa Pak (18:26):
That the end days, like when that happens, like
Jesus is coming, we've got tofinish everything before he
comes.
Brian Stiller (18:32):
So that's not behind the finishing task, not
for us.
Lisa Pak (18:35):
Not for us.
And I think I've heard PastorRick explain it very clearly in
an academic analogy which kindof like oh, I get it now.
If there's no due date for anassignment, it's kind of like
the students will never get itdone because there's no urgency
and there's no marking point.
I've got students who will getit done before and I've got
students who need extensions.
That's all particular cases,but there is a general due date.
(18:57):
But what I love about 2033 andI've come to love even more, is
that number one.
There's other big movementsthat are coming around this.
Billy Wilson in Empower 21 isone of them.
Our Catholic brothers andsisters from Global 2033 is one
of them.
So we're kind of circulatingtogether around this date and
it's significant, if onlybecause then we can celebrate
(19:18):
what the Lord has done in 2000years.
So, yes, the Lord commands usto celebrate in the Old
Testament and there's a lot ofcelebrations throughout the
Bible.
So why is it bad for us to usethat as a marker to see what we
can do in unity andcollaboration for the sake of
that celebration?
And I got to tell you if theLord Jesus comes in 2033, I've
(19:39):
got no complaints.
I really don't, and I don'tpretend to know when he's going
to come, but until that point,let us see how much we can do in
our posturing towardscollaboration, pooling our
resources, praying intospiritual strategy and putting
our shoulder to the plow.
So for me it's just achronological marker.
And then maybe 2030, the risinggenerations at that point need
(20:03):
to recalibrate to see where thenext vision point is.
I know Lausanne is 2050.
We're not saying that Jesuswill come on those two dates,
but, my goodness, let's giveourselves a marker to work
towards.
Brian Stiller (20:14):
So it's a marker of celebration.
Lisa Pak (20:16):
For me, yes, yes, absolutely it should be.
Why not?
Birth of the Church, 2000thanniversary of the Great
Commission there's a lot tocelebrate.
Brian Stiller (20:25):
And a reminder that there is work yet to be
done.
Lisa Pak (20:28):
Yes, Do you know?
Actually, in the last severalmonths, I've been thinking a lot
about Ebenezer moments in mypersonal life.
Ebenezer moments meaning God isa stone of our help.
And there was this moment inIsraelite history where the
prophet Samuel sets up a stoneand says this is Ebenezer.
Not Ebenezer Scrooge, butEbenezer as a marker to show and
(20:49):
to demonstrate to theIsraelites, to remind them that
God had been faithful thus far.
Therefore, even in the face ofthe Philistines and other
enemies, you can trust that hewill be faithful until into the
future days, and perhaps 2033for the church is one of those
marking moments that could be anEbenezer moment for the global
(21:12):
body of Christ.
Everything leading up to thatpoint because of God's
faithfulness, because of hisgrace, because of the obedience
of the saints that journeybefore us and with us, and then,
from there on, the Lord willcontinue to be faithful until
the day he returns.
Brian Stiller (21:27):
But the pattern of witness of evangelism of
conversion is different fromregion to region continent to
continent, culture to culture.
So here in North America we'veseen a slippage of church
attendance, for example, and ofpersonal belief, although the
(21:48):
latest stats show that that hasnormalized, it's not dropping
like it was, it's staying at thesame level.
But as you look at the worldunder your, finishing the task
that you are serving in, whatare you seeing worldwide that
either gives you concern orcreates optimism.
Lisa Pak (22:12):
Oh, wow, for me.
I am always optimistic.
There are challenges, to besure, and one of my passions,
brian, I know you and I havetalked, but, for the sake of
those who are listening in andwatching, I love the rising
generations.
I know there's a lot of concernbecause of the fast-paced
nature of the world we live in,the cultural conversations that
(22:33):
generations previously havenever had to ask ourselves.
But part of me and my optimism,if you will, my hope for the
future, is rooted in the factthat I know a God who has never
lost a generation and he willnot start now.
So, yes, the fight might getharder, but I do feel like every
generation, all the livinggenerations today, whether
(22:54):
you're on the older end or theyounger end, god has never left
the body of Christ ill-equippedto do the work that he's asked
it to do.
He's not that kind of God.
So there is always a way.
There is always a way to sharefaith, there is always a way to
reconfigure, there's always timeto come back to the Lord.
So when I look at the world, Ithink it really.
(23:16):
I feel very blessed to have theopportunity to travel, because
these stories that you hear fromthe Middle East, from the Far
East, from Southeast Asia, fromSouth Asia.
There are pressure pointsagainst God's people, for sure,
but in those are the testimoniesthat show us that God is a
living God.
He is the God who sees hisdaughters in South Asia.
(23:37):
He is a God who is still alive,working miracles, coming,
appearing to people in dreams,and so it compels him to go to
the local church.
Who is his Jesus?
Many stories like that in theMiddle East.
So for me, I am optimistic aboutthe trajectory of Christianity,
if you will, and I am alsoencouraged because many of the
(23:59):
leaders Pastor Rick is one ofthem are so open to
collaboration, unlike any otherseason of church history before.
It doesn't matter whatdenomination you are.
We're happy to work with thosewho believe that Jesus is Lord,
nation you are.
We're happy to work with thosewho believe that Jesus is Lord,
the virgin birth we love.
There are so many, so muchgreat work that our Catholic
(24:21):
brothers and sisters are doingas well.
So where are the points?
And if I can quote from sometheologians John Stott is one of
them, who quoted this whereit's?
How can we approach each otherwith freedom in the
non-essentials, unity in theessentials and charity or love
in every other area, and I thinkthat I am encouraged by leaders
we mentioned Rob Hoskins aswell, pastor Rick is one of them
(24:42):
, billy Wilson, all theseleaders who are willing to come
together so that in this seasonwe can collaborate unlike any
other generation before us, butit seems in our evangelical
Christian world that you and Iare a part of that.
Brian Stiller (24:57):
Competition drives.
So much so I remember and beingin South Korea and there are
150 Presbyterian denominations.
Lisa Pak (25:05):
Yes, yeah.
Brian Stiller (25:06):
So you have this enormous cleavage going on
everywhere.
How does collaboration speakinto that disunity that is so
manifest in our church?
Lisa Pak (25:16):
Yes, Do you know?
I think it depends on the kindof competition that we're
talking about, because rivalryand the one-upmanship might not
be helpful.
But I remember in the NewTestament when the disciples
were like oh, they're castingdemons out in your name.
And Jesus says are they againstyou?
And they're like, well, no.
And he says, well, let them.
Do you know.
And Paul also says some peoplepreach Christ out of ambition
(25:39):
and their own motives, but atleast Christ is preached.
So there are nuances to both ofthose passages.
For me, I always find thathealthy competitions helps us
excel.
It's like sports.
One of the reasons why so manyof our Canadian athletes might
go down south is because thetalent pool is greater and so
they are forced to excel becausethey're just around people who
(26:03):
compete at a different level andthe programs are just
structured differently.
So for me, healthy competitionin the church in that sense and
I do have to nuance that verywell, because competition often
means that somebody wins andloses but this spurring on, if
you will, this mutual spurringon that Paul uses that word as
well right To spur each other on, to encourage each other on
(26:24):
that, I think, helps us excelwith each other and we just kind
of pull other people along.
Let's do this together so thatfor me is a healthy
collaborative environment.
But when we start cuttingpeople out and we want to show
others that we are better thanthis organization, denomination,
church or tradition, I thinkthat is a seed of rivalry.
And that is what the enemy doeshe divides and he conquers.
(26:48):
He comes to kill, steal anddestroy and that is a seed that
divided in the Garden of Eden.
If we go past God and Adam andhusband and wife, brother and
brother, cain and Abel, that wasthe seed that we should not buy
into.
Brian Stiller (27:03):
What would be the prime strategy of finishing the
task as a global organization?
How do you go about it?
Lisa Pak (27:10):
Do you know?
Pastor Rick once told me go outand build relationships.
Because I think yes, for allthe strategy in the world, if
it's not undergirded by whatPatrick Lencioni and his
leadership books will callvulnerability-based trust and
real authenticity, thisunderstanding of brotherhood and
sisterhood in Christ, I thinkyou can sign all the MOUs, but
(27:33):
it becomes a little bit wooden.
There's a dynamic, relationaldynamic to the body of Christ.
Unity is not static.
It's not.
We're all in this eventtogether and now we're all
unified, and now we can go homein our separate ways and say
that we're unified.
It's not, it's a relationshipand you have to upkeep it and
Zoom in.
This world helps Onlineplatforms Skype or WhatsApp or
(27:56):
Kakao Talk, whatever it is.
It helps us connect.
But to give it that deepercoloring, to walk with people in
this journey, I think that it'simportant for us to undergird
all of the work that we do withthis love for one another, which
is what God commands, the Greatcommandment love the Lord, your
God, love others as you wouldlove yourself, and then the
(28:16):
great commission comes out ofthat.
So part of me thinks that theLord purposely designs the great
commission so it cannot becompleted unless we're unified.
And then out of that unity andthat's why Jesus prays in John
17, that they may be unified sothe world might know that you
(28:36):
sent me I think out of thatunity will come the strategy,
out of that unity and all thedifferences that might threaten
to pull us apart.
But those are the very reasonsthat we need to cling to one
another, even if we have to hashthings out or have some hard
conversations.
But out of that I feel like theSpirit will reveal how we get
this Great Commission thing done.
(28:57):
I don't think that this andpeople will say it nobody's
going to be able to do it alone.
So how do we get unified?
I think when we try to just dothe strategy without the unity,
I think we're putting the cartbefore the horse, so to speak.
It's just not going to get done.
My personal belief, from myunderstanding of the Bible, from
missiology, is that the GreatCommission was designed to be
(29:19):
done by a unified body of Christ.
How about the gender issue?
Brian Stiller (29:23):
Yes, you're a woman in ministry, in leadership
, in pastoral work.
Has that been an advantage orhow have you faced the headwinds
of that?
Lisa Pak (29:35):
If you were to ask me in my 20s if I thought it was an
advantage, my answer would beno, because there were so many
closed doors and assumptionsmade.
Our culture is based onConfucian ideology and I grew up
never seeing a female elder inmy circle of Korean churches and
(29:55):
a female pastor who wouldpreach on Sundays.
They were all children'spastors or taking care of the
women's ministry and a lot ofthem were in the kitchen and it
was just not what I wanted to do.
That's why I assumed for myselfwhen I felt the call to
ministry, that it was anacademic ministry aligned with
what I loved, didn't see spacefor me, never even didn't have
the imagination to picture thatI would be allowed to get
(30:19):
ordained.
Or it was a space for me and,interestingly, it was in Korea
that Hayoung Jo Mok's name,reverend Ha, asked me into his
main office and said you need toget ordained, and it floored me
because I just had neverthought about it.
And here was an older gentlemanfrom a more what I perceive to
be a more conservative cultureand he said to me in Korean I am
(30:41):
being conservative by tellingyou to get ordained.
That made me go back to all thebiblical passages that were
used to interpret a certain way,and rethink that and go a
little bit deeper, understandthe different positions and do
that head knowledge,investigation for myself, and
then the heart conversationswith the Lord.
(31:01):
So I think there are earthlydisadvantages, systems and
frameworks, and culture, whichcan be ethnic culture, it could
be denominational culture, itcould be family culture, but
there are so many layers thatwomen have to break through.
And I remember sharing withPastor Rick that for women who
(31:26):
feel called to lead or tominister or to preach or to
teach, it's not just a struggleof calling, it's an existential
struggle, because if everythingout there tells you that you're
not allowed to do and yet youfeel this burning fire, you're
struggling with your veryexistence.
And when you layer on top ofthat a theological framework
(31:46):
that says you are sinning byeven having these desires to go
out and teach and preach, Ithink there's a lot of internal
consternation that I think issuch a burden for a lot of girls
and women to bear.
Brian Stiller (32:00):
But you broke through.
Lisa Pak (32:02):
I broke through, but not out of my own strength.
It was that gentleman.
He was a door opener.
He was a door opener and this isthe way I describe it.
When you're on this side of aglass ceiling, I do not have the
strength.
I describe it.
When you're on this side of aglass ceiling, I do not have the
strength to break that.
I do not have the connection.
So I had people like ReverendHa, like Reverend Hyun Soo Lim,
like Pastor Rick, who wouldbreak that for me and pull me up
(32:24):
.
I still have great people likethat.
John Chestnut is one of them,bill Wolf, josh Newell, all men,
of course, because they have acertain privilege and a certain
position and authority, and theyhave all been so gracious, so I
don't pretend to have gottenhere on my own.
It was a lot of Boaz's, if Ican put it that way.
Brian Stiller (32:42):
Boaz was.
Lisa Pak (32:43):
Boaz was the patriarch , if you will, that took Ruth, a
young woman who was a Moabitess, under his care and gave her
favor and helped her integrateinto the Israelite community and
just was able to embrace her.
And so Ruth becomes thegrandmother of the great King
David, so great grandmother sothat I don't pretend to have
(33:06):
gotten here on my own, but therewas a struggle, a lot of
internal conversations with God.
But now and this is the otherpart I actually think it's an
advantage, Because when I lookat the story of Jesus, he is the
great intercessor, the Savior,who understands all oppression
(33:28):
and people who are looked downupon or disenfranchised or
marginalized for whatever reason.
I feel like the daughters ofGod who go through this have an
avenue to have an experiencewhere Jesus can come close to
them.
Because of theirdisenfranchised nature, because
they are oppressed, becausedoors are closed.
I feel like it helps usunderstand God's heart for those
(33:53):
who are likewise.
And for me, I'm like, if younever know how that feels, you
can't replicate it, and this isthe lot that God gave to us, and
there's something so preciousabout it, and the Lord will be
the lifter of your head.
And so for me, I think it's anadvantage.
I think God has a very specialheart for his daughters In
(34:15):
finishing the task.
Brian Stiller (34:18):
I know that you do these major conferences with
pastors globally, many, manycountries.
To what degree is that activitypenetrating the younger
generation, and how is theyounger generation responding to
the gospel that you and I know?
So?
Lisa Pak (34:34):
well, let me start answering this way.
I believe in a God who is agenerational God.
He presents himself as the Godof Abraham, isaac and Jacob and
he has never limited his kingdomplan to one life, even Joseph
in Genesis 50,.
As he's passing away, he kindof has understood the long plan
(34:58):
of the Lord and he says when youknow somebody comes to take you
all out of Egypt because we'renot supposed to be here, you
take my bones out.
And so for me, I understand aGod who has built into his
kingdom work generationalcontinuity.
And so that has been a focus offinishing the task, because
Pastor Rick, being in thisparticular season of his
(35:18):
ministry towards he's no longer40, in other words right he has
gone through that.
He has retired from Saddleback,he's turned his attention to
the globe, and so he'srecognizing that there are
generations that are comingafterwards, that will continue
on when all of us go home.
And isn't that the right way todo it, as the Lord Jesus Christ
prepares his bride for hisreturn.
(35:40):
You're only young once, right,and I love that because you
remind me of that, lisa, becauseI'm what, turning 44 soon, like
you can't unlearn your 30s oryour 20s, even right to your
only young ones, and I look atthem and there's such ambition.
Why is that a bad thing?
That they want to achievesomething in life, that they
(36:02):
want to do something that is,you know, greater than their
forefathers and foremothers.
I'm all like we need tocontinue to encourage and stoke
that flame.
Don't quench that spirit.
But how do we channel it into anarrative that goes beyond
their life as well?
Right and so for finishing thetask.
It's interesting because, forexample, Korea's got a problem
(36:24):
where there are less and lessyounger folk Africa.
Their average age, I think thelast time I checked for the
country of Nigeria is like 15 orsomething.
It's super young.
South Asia is the same.
The westernized or morecivilized countries.
We're old, like Canada'saverage age, I think, is over 40
, which is a few decades awayfrom the 15 that is Nigeria.
(36:47):
And so I feel like, when we lookat where the UUPGs are the
unreached, unengaged peoplegroups, those people groups who
have yet to hear for the firsttime, which is a focus of
finishing the task and gettingthe gospel to the ends of the
earth when you overlay the areasof where these people groups
who have never heard the gospelbefore, they don't have a single
(37:09):
verse translated into theirlanguages and you overlay that
with the areas that are theyoungest.
There is a overlap that, to me,is fascinating, wondering what
the Lord is doing as he pushesthe growth of the church to the
global south, and so that isalso a conversation that mission
(37:29):
leaders and church leaders needto have, about discerning how
the Lord is moving globally,because now we know I think 100
years ago we didn't have thetechnology so that we can know
real time what the Lord is doing.
Brian Stiller (37:41):
Now we do- Let me just clarify Global south is
Africa, Latin America, Asia.
Lisa Pak (37:47):
Yes, southeast Asia, asia, yes.
So South Korea, though it is inAsia, japan, though it is in
Asia, is not considered theGlobal South.
They are established countries,if we can put it that way.
And so when we see those datapoints, I think it takes people
important conversations thatworld leaders need to have with
(38:23):
each other so that the globalbody of Christ can reconfigure
ourselves in such a way thatoptimizes the diversity of the
globe, but also the generationsthat are coming up there after
us.
They are much more exposed todifferent cultures, they are
much more open to differentideas.
They are leaning towards beingmuch more spiritual, but
(38:44):
spiritual for what?
And so there are, I think,challenges on the horizon, but
whoever said that the work ofthe Lord is easy?
Whoever said that raising thegenerations that come thereafter
is going to be easy?
I look at Daniel, I look atIsaiah, I look at Esther.
Daniel, I look at Isaiah, Ilook at Esther.
(39:06):
These are pockets of excellentyoung people who are able to
withstand the tumultuouscircumstances of their day and
age and to still obey.
I feel like we have ageneration who is capable of
that.
Brian Stiller (39:15):
I noticed that you use Old Testament, New
Testament, but often OldTestament personalities as a way
to configure your ownunderstanding of what God is
doing.
Has that always been your kindof methodology of analysis or of
expectation?
Lisa Pak (39:33):
So before I went out to Korea to go into what I
didn't know back then, butpastoral ministry, get ordained
and go down that road, brian.
I wanted to be like IndianaJones.
I studied Indiana Jones,archaeology and the Old
Testament, discovering the Arkof the Covenant.
I studied at Gordon Conwell'swhere I got my Master's of
(39:55):
Divinity, but my first choicewas a Master's of Biblical
Languages because I wanted to gointo study the archaeology of
the ancient Near East.
I studied Ugaritic, sumerian,akkadian and I felt back then I
was giving that up to go out toKorea to pursue what I did not
want to pursue, and I rememberbeing angry at God.
(40:17):
I am not giving up my year atHarvard's Near Eastern Languages
and Civilizations to go out toKorea to babysit kids.
That was honestly myconversation with God.
Looking back, there are farmore brilliant people who are
writing those commentaries, whoare doing that studies, which is
necessary for us to understandthe Old Testament context, and I
(40:40):
don't think I would have beenas fulfilled as I was if I
pursued that but those OldTestament characters become a
launching pad for yourself.
Yes, because I have a naturalaffinity for history, I think
and I love the narratives.
Brian Stiller (40:52):
And how have those personalities, those
characters, those stories helpyou implement your own sense of
call?
Lisa Pak (40:59):
I love the historical narratives because, for example,
joseph he starts at 17 untilthe day he dies and there's a
narrative arc in there and Iknow we don't know all the
everyday pieces but there arethese big data points and for me
I'm like, if God is faithful inthose moments of their life,
surely he can be for mine.
So it helps me draw thesenarratives and then it places
(41:22):
them in this greater narrative.
There's 400 years between theOld Testament and New and when
Jesus comes.
This has always been myunderstanding of the Word of God
.
I have come to understand thebeauty, the grace, the depth of
the New Testament because of mystudies in the Old Like.
I feel like it just gives itsome real context.
So, speaking of bibletranslation, where we were
(41:45):
talking before the podcaststarted, I'm all for translating
the gospels, I'm like, but youneed to get the old testament
translated as well, the fullcorpus of the word of god.
Brian Stiller (41:54):
There's so much richness in there I remember the
first time I heard firstchronicles, 12, 32 quoted, and
david chose sons of Issachar whohad an understanding of the
times and who knew what Israelought to do.
And when I heard that I knewthat was my verse.
Wow, it framed the way Ithought.
It gave me focus as to myambition, yes, and it gave me a
(42:20):
framework of what to do, yeah.
So when I listened to you, Irealized that God uses those Old
Testament characters as a wayto, as almost a launching plan
for yourself in life or invarious circumstances.
Lisa Pak (42:37):
Yeah, and they're so human, so human, these Old
Testament characters, right, andI think that is both a source
of encouragement, but also let'snot, if we can help ourselves
and make the same mistakes theyhave but Lord knows, we all make
our mistakes speaks to what wewere just talking about a few
(43:04):
moments ago, about women inministry or women in leadership
or women in life, where here's ayoung woman who's an orphan,
who's a Jew, who's female.
So these, in that day and age,in the Persian empire, in the
ancient Near East, there arethree things that are
liabilities for her, and yet heuses a girl who's got these
liabilities against her to turnto go around the power politics
of all the men, and she is theChrist figure of that story.
(43:26):
So that ought to be a moment ofhope for all the girls out
there who feel overlooked by theworld.
God does see you and he willuse you for his kingdom purpose.
Brian Stiller (43:36):
Lisa Pak, thank you for joining us on
Evangelical 360.
Lisa Pak (43:40):
Thank you so much for having me, Brian.
Brian Stiller (43:42):
Thank you, lisa, for joining us today and for
providing us with a renewedunderstanding of the Christian
mission and the global church,and thank you for being a part
of the podcast.
Be sure to share this episode.
Use hashtag Evangelical360, andjoin the conversation on
YouTube in the notes below.
If you'd like to learn moreabout today's guest, be sure to
(44:06):
check the show notes for linksand info, and if you haven't
already received my free e-bookand newsletter, just go to
brianstillercom.
Thanks again, until next time,don't miss the next interview,
be sure to subscribe toEvangelical 360 on YouTube.
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm your host, brian Stiller,and I'm pleased to share with
you another conversation withleaders, changemakers and
influencers those impactingChristian life around the world.
We'd love for you to be a partof the podcast by sharing this
episode.
Use hashtag Evangelical360, andjoin the conversation on
(00:33):
YouTube in the comments below.
My guest today is Reverend DrLisa Pak, a second-generation
Korean-Canadian who has studiedin both the US and Canada, has
pastored across Asia and NorthAmerica and is now a catalyst
for church growth and missionall around the world.
Speaking with Lisa is animportant reminder that the
(00:56):
baton of leadership must alwaysbe passed to the next generation
.
She currently leads a globalinitiative called Finishing the
Task, which is a network ofpeople and churches focused on
mission and reaching the worldwith the message of Jesus Christ
.
In our conversation, you'llhear the year 2033 come up from
(01:17):
time to time.
This is a simple reminder thatJesus of Nazareth lived and died
2,000 years ago, in 33 AD,which makes 2033 a meaningful
millennial marker, a reminderthat he is here among us and
will return.
Join me as Reverend Dr Lisa Pakinspires us with this message
(01:39):
and the work of the globalchurch.
And the work of the globalchurch.
Lisa, thanks so much forjoining us today on Evangelical
360.
Lisa Pak (01:51):
Thank you for having me, Truly thank you for having
me.
Brian Stiller (01:54):
Lisa, you were not born in Korea, but you were
born in Canada.
Lisa Pak (01:59):
Yes, toronto, canada, born and raised yep.
Brian Stiller (02:09):
But you have close linkage to your Korean
community.
Lisa Pak (02:11):
I do, in the first place because we're an immigrant
family and our grandparentsfrom Korea came to live with us,
so our home culture is veryKorean in some sense.
Having said that, we are animmigrant family, so it's a
little bit diluted because ofthe distance from the
geographical distance from theculture.
But I grew up 100%.
I am Canadian through andthrough and when the opportunity
came for me to go back to Koreafor ministry it was hard.
(02:33):
I did not want to go.
I didn't feel a personalaffinity to my people group and
my heritage and my culture.
I was like no, I'm Canadian.
Brian Stiller (02:40):
Your life began here in Canada.
You trained for ministry.
Was this part of your familyheritage?
Lisa Pak (02:47):
It wasn't.
In fact, both my parents, afterI got older and you get to
understand the rhythms of lifeand your parents are human
beings and not just mom and dadwe started talking about how
challenging immigrant life wasfor them and, as young adults
who came and got married here,how their faith was stretched
when they started having afamily and they grew faster and
(03:07):
deeper because of the challengesof immigrant life.
So they admittedly say thatthey were probably younger
Christians when they firstimmigrated here to get married.
Brian Stiller (03:16):
And so were you a person of faith, young in life.
Lisa Pak (03:19):
Yes, because that's one thing I do 100% credit my
parents for.
Because that's one thing I do100% credit my parents for, even
as they were growing deeper intheir faith, they had made a
commitment to themselves, toeach other, to the family, to
God.
We will raise our kids in thechurch in the faith, teaching
them to pray.
I remember my mom, in terms ofteaching us how to tithe, saying
back then, when we had change,when we were kids, 10% of
(03:40):
whatever allowance we got.
I remember her saying don'tgive change from your pockets,
not because change is a moral,immoral thing, but she wanted to
show and teach us to thinkahead about what you give.
So don't just pull it out ofyour pocket on Sunday and say,
oh, I've got to give it.
You go to the bank, get cleanbills and then you give it.
So these things that my parentstaught us when we were young it
(04:02):
was in a Christian home and Idon't remember not ever
believing in God.
And then I do remember themoments where it gradually
became very personal.
So childhood conversion, as theReverend Billy Graham would say
, it is my experience.
It wasn't one hard moment.
I always I look back and I'm sograteful to my parents.
For that I mean certainly hardmoments in life and in immigrant
(04:23):
life, but that one thing Idefinitely owe to my parents.
Brian Stiller (04:27):
But you ended up as a pastor.
How did that happen?
Lisa Pak (04:30):
So I'm a good Asian kid, brian.
I was like I'm going to getinto med school and I loved it.
I'm academically wired, notnecessarily because my ethnicity
, it's just the way that Godcreated me.
I was automatically the Asiankid that said, not because my
parents pressured me, but I waslike I need to get the A plus.
And I remember my mom actuallysaying you know, it's okay to
get a B, which is not thetraditional or the stereotypical
(04:53):
way that Asian parents approachtheir kids.
But I was very academicallydriven.
I wanted to get into medicineand at that time I was reading.
I was thinking I think I waslike 13.
I was reading Ecclesiastes.
And then, you know, with thelimited experience and lens of a
13 year old, I'm likeeverything is meaningless.
You know all everything.
(05:13):
Everyone's ends up dying, likewhat is the point of all this?
And I remember thinking my bestfriend's mom at the time had
gotten cancer.
So I'm like, oh, I'll justdiscover the cure for cancer, as
ambitious as 13 year olds canget.
And then, because I was readingthrough Ecclesiastes, I went
through this mental processwhere it's like, but if I find a
cure for cancer, people aregoing to die anyway.
(05:34):
And then.
So what lasts longer than thebody, it's the soul.
And somehow that clicked and Iwas like I'm going to do
something in ministry.
When I was 16, I did tell myparents because my mom had asked
my mom.
Apparently this is her side ofthe story she didn't cry in
front of me when I was 16, butshe did cry and it was because
(05:56):
she was like being a femalepastor in a Korean church,
because that's where I grew upand that was all I knew.
It was so hard and she's likeshe cried.
She called my grandmother hermom and my grandmother was
crying and my mom's story goesshe was crying louder than me.
So I was like, why are youcrying?
And apparently she was cryingbecause she was so happy.
Brian Stiller (06:17):
Oh, and yet your mother was fearful here.
my daughter is going to be awoman in a Korean church and
they're going to put her downbecause she's female,
Lisa Pak (06:25):
yeah, and all the other obstacles that I couldn't
even imagine, right, just allthe subtleties of that.
But my grandmother had wantedmy mom or her younger sister.
She's only got two kids, myaunt and my mom.
She wanted my mom, who's theolder sister, to go to seminary.
My mom said no way.
Like in that day and age,especially in Korea, the women
just went to seminary to becomepastor's wives.
(06:45):
And she's like I'm not livingthat life and I 100% understand
it.
So when my grandmother heardthat I, out of my own volition,
was like I want to get intoministry, she took that as an
answer to years and years ofprayer.
And I never knew this until Igraduated, or close to graduated
, seminary because my parentsdidn't want to put that
spiritual layer of pressure onme.
(07:06):
It was my own choice in thatsense, but looking back I can
certainly see God's hand in this.
Brian Stiller (07:12):
Okay, let's go back to Korea.
South Korea.
A fascinating country, one thatout of the Second World War
emerged as one of the mostdynamic Christian churches in
the world Complex, feisty,combative, and yet in the world
today, at least within theevangelical mission community,
(07:36):
south Korea is only second tothe US for missionary sending.
So let's circulate back to whydid the gospel take such root
and accelerate in those fewdecades, in the last half of the
20th century?
Lisa Pak (07:52):
Wow, yeah, that's such a rich question because, being
born and raised in Canada in agrant, you know a diaspora
Korean church but one doesn'tlearn mission history in your
Sunday school class.
One doesn't learn missionhistory in your Sunday school
class.
So it took me to go back toKorea and trace a lot of that
lineage and even in seminarychurch history focused on a lot
of Western church history.
(08:12):
I did not know much about theEast and there are a couple of
reasons that come to the top ofmy mind.
One is that, yes, the Koreanpeople did respond, but they
responded out of suchdesperation that the war and
Japanese colonization beforethat created almost this vacuum
of hope and such desperation.
Stories about how compassionand world vision came out of the
(08:35):
orphans that came out of thewar, my mom being born in
December 1953, like a few monthsafter the ceasefire, like there
was nothing ceasefire, likethere was nothing.
If I look at pictures of whenmy just a handful of when my
grandparents were young adults,not even when they were kids, my
dad's pictures, my mom's it'slike a different world.
(08:55):
I couldn't even imagine beingborn and raised there.
So I imagine that just thecontext into which Korea was
coming out of with all thatturmoil, all that political
instability, the poverty, thebroken families, literally
generational trauma, from, again, pre-japanese colonization to
Japanese colonization, topost-war, post-ceasefire Korea.
(09:20):
I think there was a lot thatthe nation had just in
desperation, was like we'll takewhatever it is that can help.
And there were greatmissionaries.
I think this is the other piece.
When you go to Korea I didn'tknow about this until I visited
there Some of the Korean pastorsfrom Unri Church, which is
where I was serving.
They took us out to us Englishsecond gen English speaking
(09:41):
pastors out to the cemetery offoreign missionaries.
And it moves you deeply becauseI feel like the blessings that
Korea was able to reap andreceive came from those outside
of our people group who just inobedience to God, went,
literally gave their lives, areburied in that cemetery and
(10:04):
though their eyes could not seewhere Korea has gone, I believe
that it was out of those seedsthat were sown and then the
external circumstances that Godcreates in his sovereignty that
kind of really lined up so thatthe Korean people, the gospel
seeds, were sown, the soil wascultivated and God caused it to
(10:24):
grow.
That's how I have begun tounderstand that deep legacy and
the kindness of God.
Brian Stiller (10:31):
When you look at Korea in the 20th century, you
have these large mega churches,for example the Full Gospel
Church in Seoul, pastor YounggiCho, 800,000 members, or some
unaccountable number, yeahastronomical, it's hard to even
imagine.
So what was there in that worldthat gave allowance for these
(10:56):
huge churches?
How did that come about?
Lisa Pak (10:59):
It's such an interesting phenomenon too, and
there's probably somebody elsethat has done the academic
research behind it.
But I almost feel like Koreabeing such a communal culture,
you know, family oriented,community oriented, I think that
when the gospel started to takeseed and people were hungry for
it and they just gather.
The other thing about Korea, asopposed to Canada, it is a
(11:22):
peninsula.
You don't have much to go.
You're not going to go northbecause of the 38th parallel.
You're not going to go out tothe sea and gather where.
So it's almost like thegeographical borders, like where
else are they going to goexcept to congregate in these
big areas?
Most of the, a lot of them, arein Seoul, because it's the big
city and just the landmass andgeography, like you've got to
(11:43):
gather somewhere.
Canada's got this huge landmassthat we can literally spread out
.
So I think a little bit of thathas to do with it.
But I think it is mostly thecommunal undertones of our
culture that let's gathertogether.
We love gathering together, welove eating together, morning
prayer.
There's power in numbers.
It is the tie that binds, andwhen it's saturated and
(12:04):
undergirded by the vision thatGod can only give to his people,
I think there was such akindness and a mercy and a gift
there that God gave to theKorean church.
Brian Stiller (12:12):
Remarkable was the early morning prayer, 5 am
prayers at the mountain orsomeplace, and this would
congregate thousands of peopleon a daily basis.
Lisa Pak (12:23):
Yep yep, there are many things that can be
challenging about a traditionalKorean culture.
That one thing.
If there was one thing andthere's many things I love about
the Korean culture that onething about the Korean church.
I'm like we dare not give upever.
I do feel like it was born outof a certain moment in history
in the Korean church.
(12:44):
But to remember that and to goto God in prayer, my parents did
that even in Toronto.
They would wake up at like 4,4.30, go to morning prayer at 5,
5.30, go to work On Wednesdaynights.
They would have small groupFriday nights.
We would go to church Saturdays, there would be events and it
was just constant and they wereable to continue to do it
(13:05):
because I think there was astrength in that, there was
purpose in that prayer and Idon't doubt for a second.
It's because of that prayerthat the Korean church has
become what it has, with themissionary focus, with the focus
on the world, and the lack ofprayer is going to disempower
the church and the individualChristian.
You can't get away from prayer.
Brian Stiller (13:26):
But as I travel about in various countries I was
thinking of Mongolia andKazakhstan and China and other
places that I've been to frontand center are Chinese-led or
Korean-led churches.
So the missionary activity ofthe Southern Korean community is
historic.
No other country of that sizehas done and is doing what it is
(13:50):
doing in missions.
What is there about the spiritor the society that drives them
to be these world evangelists?
Lisa Pak (14:01):
I think it was a demonstration of foreigners,
because they were foreigners,all the missionaries that
brought the gospel and the debtof grace that is very
deep-seated.
And then I think it was justthis compulsion from the inside,
the love of Christ, thatcompels us to go.
I can speak very specificallyto the pastors in the Korean
(14:21):
community that I served under HaYoung-jo Mok-sanim, reverend
Lim Im, hyun-soo Mok-sa-nim inMississauga, Toronto, and a few
others.
They were all mentored anddiscipled by Campus Crusade for
Christ, which has that very deep.
We got to go evangelize theworld and there was a generation
of pastors in that demographicthat were nourished and
(14:43):
discipled with that kind ofvision and it trickled down to
many of the megachurches thatthey ended up founding and
leading.
So I think that that definitelyhas something to do with it,
like the vision that was passedon from these missionaries that
again literally gave up theirlife.
There's something about thatcontinuity that God honors, not
necessarily from one peoplegroup and within that, but
(15:04):
certainly in his kingdom.
Not necessarily from one peoplegroup and within that, but
certainly in his kingdom.
I have learned, brian, god'skingdom unfolds like no other
empire, no other kingdom on thisearth, and when I look back at
the heritage of the KoreanChristian faith.
There was a lot of grace.
Where God, I can see hissovereign hand.
The further you go back inhistory, a little bit clearer it
(15:24):
is, and I'm not sure exactlywhere the Lord is headed today.
But I do know that if wecontinue in obedience his word
does not come empty.
So I do feel like there's a lotof intertwining and if you were
to press me for a hard and fast, research-based answer I would
have to go back to.
It is by the grace of God.
Why us, why not the Japanese?
(15:44):
Why not other South Asia?
Why not Canada?
Why this tiny country, thispeninsula country that came out
of post-war and part of methinks because God will not
share his glory with anybody andthe only way that a tiny
country is able to do what itdoes in the mission world is
because God allows it and Godempowers it.
That's it.
Brian Stiller (16:05):
Okay, here you are.
Today.
You're a global strategist forfinishing the task.
An interesting line workingwith Rick Warren.
Yes, Give us an overlay of whatthat's about.
Lisa Pak (16:15):
Oh man, First, do you know, working with Pastor Rick
Warren has been amazing.
He's a very particular style ofleader for a particular
generation.
Brian Stiller (16:24):
He.
He was pastor of Saddleback.
Church in California.
Lisa Pak (16:28):
Yes.
Brian Stiller (16:28):
Writer of a purpose-driven major book that
had enormous sales.
Lisa Pak (16:33):
Yeah, which was translated into Korean.
And the irony or not the irony,the great thing about this
whole story is that my parentsread Pastor Rick's book for 40
days and the church had tied itto 40 days of prayer, even
before I knew of Pastor Rick,because I was just a kid growing
up and they had, with churchleaders, gone to visit
(16:55):
Saddleback because in thatseason of our church history we
were thinking about building abuilding, the one that is there
right near Pearson Airport, andthey had gone to tour many of
the megachurch buildings just sothey can get an idea of you
know how to make a functionalbuilding that is for the rising
generations.
And Salavak was one of thechurches that they visited.
So when I joined Pastor RickWarren with finishing the task,
(17:18):
I think it was like a moment.
It just tickled my parents toknow that who could have
scripted this the way that theLord has?
So yes, and so finishing thetask is wholly about the Great
Commission, bringing unity intothe body of Christ and
mobilizing the church for thesake of the Great Commission.
So it aligns with my experiencein the Korean church, my love
(17:39):
for the church, I believe in thechurch, I believe that the
Great Commission was given tothe church.
It is our responsibility andprivilege, and that's where
Pastor Rick's heart is.
How do we mobilize the churchfor the Great Commission?
And so that's where I feel veryblessed and privileged to work
on the team and just serve underhis leadership.
Brian Stiller (17:57):
So the idea of finishing the task is built
around the year 2033.
Lisa Pak (18:02):
Yes.
Brian Stiller (18:04):
Yes, that's obviously the 2, 2000 years
since the life of Christ on thisearth.
So is that a kind of a magicalyear.
Does 2000 years matter, or isit a kind of a promo idea?
Lisa Pak (18:19):
I need to make this clear, and I'll look right at
the camera it is not aneschatological date that we
proclaim that Jesus will.
Brian Stiller (18:25):
Eschatological meaning.
Lisa Pak (18:26):
That the end days, like when that happens, like
Jesus is coming, we've got tofinish everything before he
comes.
Brian Stiller (18:32):
So that's not behind the finishing task, not
for us.
Lisa Pak (18:35):
Not for us.
And I think I've heard PastorRick explain it very clearly in
an academic analogy which kindof like oh, I get it now.
If there's no due date for anassignment, it's kind of like
the students will never get itdone because there's no urgency
and there's no marking point.
I've got students who will getit done before and I've got
students who need extensions.
That's all particular cases,but there is a general due date.
(18:57):
But what I love about 2033 andI've come to love even more, is
that number one.
There's other big movementsthat are coming around this.
Billy Wilson in Empower 21 isone of them.
Our Catholic brothers andsisters from Global 2033 is one
of them.
So we're kind of circulatingtogether around this date and
it's significant, if onlybecause then we can celebrate
(19:18):
what the Lord has done in 2000years.
So, yes, the Lord commands usto celebrate in the Old
Testament and there's a lot ofcelebrations throughout the
Bible.
So why is it bad for us to usethat as a marker to see what we
can do in unity andcollaboration for the sake of
that celebration?
And I got to tell you if theLord Jesus comes in 2033, I've
(19:39):
got no complaints.
I really don't, and I don'tpretend to know when he's going
to come, but until that point,let us see how much we can do in
our posturing towardscollaboration, pooling our
resources, praying intospiritual strategy and putting
our shoulder to the plow.
So for me it's just achronological marker.
And then maybe 2030, the risinggenerations at that point need
(20:03):
to recalibrate to see where thenext vision point is.
I know Lausanne is 2050.
We're not saying that Jesuswill come on those two dates,
but, my goodness, let's giveourselves a marker to work
towards.
Brian Stiller (20:14):
So it's a marker of celebration.
Lisa Pak (20:16):
For me, yes, yes, absolutely it should be.
Why not?
Birth of the Church, 2000thanniversary of the Great
Commission there's a lot tocelebrate.
Brian Stiller (20:25):
And a reminder that there is work yet to be
done.
Lisa Pak (20:28):
Yes, Do you know?
Actually, in the last severalmonths, I've been thinking a lot
about Ebenezer moments in mypersonal life.
Ebenezer moments meaning God isa stone of our help.
And there was this moment inIsraelite history where the
prophet Samuel sets up a stoneand says this is Ebenezer.
Not Ebenezer Scrooge, butEbenezer as a marker to show and
(20:49):
to demonstrate to theIsraelites, to remind them that
God had been faithful thus far.
Therefore, even in the face ofthe Philistines and other
enemies, you can trust that hewill be faithful until into the
future days, and perhaps 2033for the church is one of those
marking moments that could be anEbenezer moment for the global
(21:12):
body of Christ.
Everything leading up to thatpoint because of God's
faithfulness, because of hisgrace, because of the obedience
of the saints that journeybefore us and with us, and then,
from there on, the Lord willcontinue to be faithful until
the day he returns.
Brian Stiller (21:27):
But the pattern of witness of evangelism of
conversion is different fromregion to region continent to
continent, culture to culture.
So here in North America we'veseen a slippage of church
attendance, for example, and ofpersonal belief, although the
(21:48):
latest stats show that that hasnormalized, it's not dropping
like it was, it's staying at thesame level.
But as you look at the worldunder your, finishing the task
that you are serving in, whatare you seeing worldwide that
either gives you concern orcreates optimism.
Lisa Pak (22:12):
Oh, wow, for me.
I am always optimistic.
There are challenges, to besure, and one of my passions,
brian, I know you and I havetalked, but, for the sake of
those who are listening in andwatching, I love the rising
generations.
I know there's a lot of concernbecause of the fast-paced
nature of the world we live in,the cultural conversations that
(22:33):
generations previously havenever had to ask ourselves.
But part of me and my optimism,if you will, my hope for the
future, is rooted in the factthat I know a God who has never
lost a generation and he willnot start now.
So, yes, the fight might getharder, but I do feel like every
generation, all the livinggenerations today, whether
(22:54):
you're on the older end or theyounger end, god has never left
the body of Christ ill-equippedto do the work that he's asked
it to do.
He's not that kind of God.
So there is always a way.
There is always a way to sharefaith, there is always a way to
reconfigure, there's always timeto come back to the Lord.
So when I look at the world, Ithink it really.
(23:16):
I feel very blessed to have theopportunity to travel, because
these stories that you hear fromthe Middle East, from the Far
East, from Southeast Asia, fromSouth Asia.
There are pressure pointsagainst God's people, for sure,
but in those are the testimoniesthat show us that God is a
living God.
He is the God who sees hisdaughters in South Asia.
(23:37):
He is a God who is still alive,working miracles, coming,
appearing to people in dreams,and so it compels him to go to
the local church.
Who is his Jesus?
Many stories like that in theMiddle East.
So for me, I am optimistic aboutthe trajectory of Christianity,
if you will, and I am alsoencouraged because many of the
(23:59):
leaders Pastor Rick is one ofthem are so open to
collaboration, unlike any otherseason of church history before.
It doesn't matter whatdenomination you are.
We're happy to work with thosewho believe that Jesus is Lord,
nation you are.
We're happy to work with thosewho believe that Jesus is Lord,
the virgin birth we love.
There are so many, so muchgreat work that our Catholic
(24:21):
brothers and sisters are doingas well.
So where are the points?
And if I can quote from sometheologians John Stott is one of
them, who quoted this whereit's?
How can we approach each otherwith freedom in the
non-essentials, unity in theessentials and charity or love
in every other area, and I thinkthat I am encouraged by leaders
we mentioned Rob Hoskins aswell, pastor Rick is one of them
(24:42):
, billy Wilson, all theseleaders who are willing to come
together so that in this seasonwe can collaborate unlike any
other generation before us, butit seems in our evangelical
Christian world that you and Iare a part of that.
Brian Stiller (24:57):
Competition drives.
So much so I remember and beingin South Korea and there are
150 Presbyterian denominations.
Lisa Pak (25:05):
Yes, yeah.
Brian Stiller (25:06):
So you have this enormous cleavage going on
everywhere.
How does collaboration speakinto that disunity that is so
manifest in our church?
Lisa Pak (25:16):
Yes, Do you know?
I think it depends on the kindof competition that we're
talking about, because rivalryand the one-upmanship might not
be helpful.
But I remember in the NewTestament when the disciples
were like oh, they're castingdemons out in your name.
And Jesus says are they againstyou?
And they're like, well, no.
And he says, well, let them.
Do you know.
And Paul also says some peoplepreach Christ out of ambition
(25:39):
and their own motives, but atleast Christ is preached.
So there are nuances to both ofthose passages.
For me, I always find thathealthy competitions helps us
excel.
It's like sports.
One of the reasons why so manyof our Canadian athletes might
go down south is because thetalent pool is greater and so
they are forced to excel becausethey're just around people who
(26:03):
compete at a different level andthe programs are just
structured differently.
So for me, healthy competitionin the church in that sense and
I do have to nuance that verywell, because competition often
means that somebody wins andloses but this spurring on, if
you will, this mutual spurringon that Paul uses that word as
well right To spur each other on, to encourage each other on
(26:24):
that, I think, helps us excelwith each other and we just kind
of pull other people along.
Let's do this together so thatfor me is a healthy
collaborative environment.
But when we start cuttingpeople out and we want to show
others that we are better thanthis organization, denomination,
church or tradition, I thinkthat is a seed of rivalry.
And that is what the enemy doeshe divides and he conquers.
(26:48):
He comes to kill, steal anddestroy and that is a seed that
divided in the Garden of Eden.
If we go past God and Adam andhusband and wife, brother and
brother, cain and Abel, that wasthe seed that we should not buy
into.
Brian Stiller (27:03):
What would be the prime strategy of finishing the
task as a global organization?
How do you go about it?
Lisa Pak (27:10):
Do you know?
Pastor Rick once told me go outand build relationships.
Because I think yes, for allthe strategy in the world, if
it's not undergirded by whatPatrick Lencioni and his
leadership books will callvulnerability-based trust and
real authenticity, thisunderstanding of brotherhood and
sisterhood in Christ, I thinkyou can sign all the MOUs, but
(27:33):
it becomes a little bit wooden.
There's a dynamic, relationaldynamic to the body of Christ.
Unity is not static.
It's not.
We're all in this eventtogether and now we're all
unified, and now we can go homein our separate ways and say
that we're unified.
It's not, it's a relationshipand you have to upkeep it and
Zoom in.
This world helps Onlineplatforms Skype or WhatsApp or
(27:56):
Kakao Talk, whatever it is.
It helps us connect.
But to give it that deepercoloring, to walk with people in
this journey, I think that it'simportant for us to undergird
all of the work that we do withthis love for one another, which
is what God commands, the Greatcommandment love the Lord, your
God, love others as you wouldlove yourself, and then the
(28:16):
great commission comes out ofthat.
So part of me thinks that theLord purposely designs the great
commission so it cannot becompleted unless we're unified.
And then out of that unity andthat's why Jesus prays in John
17, that they may be unified sothe world might know that you
(28:36):
sent me I think out of thatunity will come the strategy,
out of that unity and all thedifferences that might threaten
to pull us apart.
But those are the very reasonsthat we need to cling to one
another, even if we have to hashthings out or have some hard
conversations.
But out of that I feel like theSpirit will reveal how we get
this Great Commission thing done.
(28:57):
I don't think that this andpeople will say it nobody's
going to be able to do it alone.
So how do we get unified?
I think when we try to just dothe strategy without the unity,
I think we're putting the cartbefore the horse, so to speak.
It's just not going to get done.
My personal belief, from myunderstanding of the Bible, from
missiology, is that the GreatCommission was designed to be
(29:19):
done by a unified body of Christ.
How about the gender issue?
Brian Stiller (29:23):
Yes, you're a woman in ministry, in leadership
, in pastoral work.
Has that been an advantage orhow have you faced the headwinds
of that?
Lisa Pak (29:35):
If you were to ask me in my 20s if I thought it was an
advantage, my answer would beno, because there were so many
closed doors and assumptionsmade.
Our culture is based onConfucian ideology and I grew up
never seeing a female elder inmy circle of Korean churches and
(29:55):
a female pastor who wouldpreach on Sundays.
They were all children'spastors or taking care of the
women's ministry and a lot ofthem were in the kitchen and it
was just not what I wanted to do.
That's why I assumed for myselfwhen I felt the call to
ministry, that it was anacademic ministry aligned with
what I loved, didn't see spacefor me, never even didn't have
the imagination to picture thatI would be allowed to get
(30:19):
ordained.
Or it was a space for me and,interestingly, it was in Korea
that Hayoung Jo Mok's name,reverend Ha, asked me into his
main office and said you need toget ordained, and it floored me
because I just had neverthought about it.
And here was an older gentlemanfrom a more what I perceive to
be a more conservative cultureand he said to me in Korean I am
(30:41):
being conservative by tellingyou to get ordained.
That made me go back to all thebiblical passages that were
used to interpret a certain way,and rethink that and go a
little bit deeper, understandthe different positions and do
that head knowledge,investigation for myself, and
then the heart conversationswith the Lord.
(31:01):
So I think there are earthlydisadvantages, systems and
frameworks, and culture, whichcan be ethnic culture, it could
be denominational culture, itcould be family culture, but
there are so many layers thatwomen have to break through.
And I remember sharing withPastor Rick that for women who
(31:26):
feel called to lead or tominister or to preach or to
teach, it's not just a struggleof calling, it's an existential
struggle, because if everythingout there tells you that you're
not allowed to do and yet youfeel this burning fire, you're
struggling with your veryexistence.
And when you layer on top ofthat a theological framework
(31:46):
that says you are sinning byeven having these desires to go
out and teach and preach, Ithink there's a lot of internal
consternation that I think issuch a burden for a lot of girls
and women to bear.
Brian Stiller (32:00):
But you broke through.
Lisa Pak (32:02):
I broke through, but not out of my own strength.
It was that gentleman.
He was a door opener.
He was a door opener and this isthe way I describe it.
When you're on this side of aglass ceiling, I do not have the
strength.
I describe it.
When you're on this side of aglass ceiling, I do not have the
strength to break that.
I do not have the connection.
So I had people like ReverendHa, like Reverend Hyun Soo Lim,
like Pastor Rick, who wouldbreak that for me and pull me up
(32:24):
.
I still have great people likethat.
John Chestnut is one of them,bill Wolf, josh Newell, all men,
of course, because they have acertain privilege and a certain
position and authority, and theyhave all been so gracious, so I
don't pretend to have gottenhere on my own.
It was a lot of Boaz's, if Ican put it that way.
Brian Stiller (32:42):
Boaz was.
Lisa Pak (32:43):
Boaz was the patriarch , if you will, that took Ruth, a
young woman who was a Moabitess, under his care and gave her
favor and helped her integrateinto the Israelite community and
just was able to embrace her.
And so Ruth becomes thegrandmother of the great King
David, so great grandmother sothat I don't pretend to have
(33:06):
gotten here on my own, but therewas a struggle, a lot of
internal conversations with God.
But now and this is the otherpart I actually think it's an
advantage, Because when I lookat the story of Jesus, he is the
great intercessor, the Savior,who understands all oppression
(33:28):
and people who are looked downupon or disenfranchised or
marginalized for whatever reason.
I feel like the daughters ofGod who go through this have an
avenue to have an experiencewhere Jesus can come close to
them.
Because of theirdisenfranchised nature, because
they are oppressed, becausedoors are closed.
I feel like it helps usunderstand God's heart for those
(33:53):
who are likewise.
And for me, I'm like, if younever know how that feels, you
can't replicate it, and this isthe lot that God gave to us, and
there's something so preciousabout it, and the Lord will be
the lifter of your head.
And so for me, I think it's anadvantage.
I think God has a very specialheart for his daughters In
(34:15):
finishing the task.
Brian Stiller (34:18):
I know that you do these major conferences with
pastors globally, many, manycountries.
To what degree is that activitypenetrating the younger
generation, and how is theyounger generation responding to
the gospel that you and I know?
So?
Lisa Pak (34:34):
well, let me start answering this way.
I believe in a God who is agenerational God.
He presents himself as the Godof Abraham, isaac and Jacob and
he has never limited his kingdomplan to one life, even Joseph
in Genesis 50,.
As he's passing away, he kindof has understood the long plan
(34:58):
of the Lord and he says when youknow somebody comes to take you
all out of Egypt because we'renot supposed to be here, you
take my bones out.
And so for me, I understand aGod who has built into his
kingdom work generationalcontinuity.
And so that has been a focus offinishing the task, because
Pastor Rick, being in thisparticular season of his
(35:18):
ministry towards he's no longer40, in other words right he has
gone through that.
He has retired from Saddleback,he's turned his attention to
the globe, and so he'srecognizing that there are
generations that are comingafterwards, that will continue
on when all of us go home.
And isn't that the right way todo it, as the Lord Jesus Christ
prepares his bride for hisreturn.
(35:40):
You're only young once, right,and I love that because you
remind me of that, lisa, becauseI'm what, turning 44 soon, like
you can't unlearn your 30s oryour 20s, even right to your
only young ones, and I look atthem and there's such ambition.
Why is that a bad thing?
That they want to achievesomething in life, that they
(36:02):
want to do something that is,you know, greater than their
forefathers and foremothers.
I'm all like we need tocontinue to encourage and stoke
that flame.
Don't quench that spirit.
But how do we channel it into anarrative that goes beyond
their life as well?
Right and so for finishing thetask.
It's interesting because, forexample, Korea's got a problem
(36:24):
where there are less and lessyounger folk Africa.
Their average age, I think thelast time I checked for the
country of Nigeria is like 15 orsomething.
It's super young.
South Asia is the same.
The westernized or morecivilized countries.
We're old, like Canada'saverage age, I think, is over 40
, which is a few decades awayfrom the 15 that is Nigeria.
(36:47):
And so I feel like, when we lookat where the UUPGs are the
unreached, unengaged peoplegroups, those people groups who
have yet to hear for the firsttime, which is a focus of
finishing the task and gettingthe gospel to the ends of the
earth when you overlay the areasof where these people groups
who have never heard the gospelbefore, they don't have a single
(37:09):
verse translated into theirlanguages and you overlay that
with the areas that are theyoungest.
There is a overlap that, to me,is fascinating, wondering what
the Lord is doing as he pushesthe growth of the church to the
global south, and so that isalso a conversation that mission
(37:29):
leaders and church leaders needto have, about discerning how
the Lord is moving globally,because now we know I think 100
years ago we didn't have thetechnology so that we can know
real time what the Lord is doing.
Brian Stiller (37:41):
Now we do- Let me just clarify Global south is
Africa, Latin America, Asia.
Lisa Pak (37:47):
Yes, southeast Asia, asia, yes.
So South Korea, though it is inAsia, japan, though it is in
Asia, is not considered theGlobal South.
They are established countries,if we can put it that way.
And so when we see those datapoints, I think it takes people
important conversations thatworld leaders need to have with
(38:23):
each other so that the globalbody of Christ can reconfigure
ourselves in such a way thatoptimizes the diversity of the
globe, but also the generationsthat are coming up there after
us.
They are much more exposed todifferent cultures, they are
much more open to differentideas.
They are leaning towards beingmuch more spiritual, but
(38:44):
spiritual for what?
And so there are, I think,challenges on the horizon, but
whoever said that the work ofthe Lord is easy?
Whoever said that raising thegenerations that come thereafter
is going to be easy?
I look at Daniel, I look atIsaiah, I look at Esther.
Daniel, I look at Isaiah, Ilook at Esther.
(39:06):
These are pockets of excellentyoung people who are able to
withstand the tumultuouscircumstances of their day and
age and to still obey.
I feel like we have ageneration who is capable of
that.
Brian Stiller (39:15):
I noticed that you use Old Testament, New
Testament, but often OldTestament personalities as a way
to configure your ownunderstanding of what God is
doing.
Has that always been your kindof methodology of analysis or of
expectation?
Lisa Pak (39:33):
So before I went out to Korea to go into what I
didn't know back then, butpastoral ministry, get ordained
and go down that road, brian.
I wanted to be like IndianaJones.
I studied Indiana Jones,archaeology and the Old
Testament, discovering the Arkof the Covenant.
I studied at Gordon Conwell'swhere I got my Master's of
(39:55):
Divinity, but my first choicewas a Master's of Biblical
Languages because I wanted to gointo study the archaeology of
the ancient Near East.
I studied Ugaritic, sumerian,akkadian and I felt back then I
was giving that up to go out toKorea to pursue what I did not
want to pursue, and I rememberbeing angry at God.
(40:17):
I am not giving up my year atHarvard's Near Eastern Languages
and Civilizations to go out toKorea to babysit kids.
That was honestly myconversation with God.
Looking back, there are farmore brilliant people who are
writing those commentaries, whoare doing that studies, which is
necessary for us to understandthe Old Testament context, and I
(40:40):
don't think I would have beenas fulfilled as I was if I
pursued that but those OldTestament characters become a
launching pad for yourself.
Yes, because I have a naturalaffinity for history, I think
and I love the narratives.
Brian Stiller (40:52):
And how have those personalities, those
characters, those stories helpyou implement your own sense of
call?
Lisa Pak (40:59):
I love the historical narratives because, for example,
joseph he starts at 17 untilthe day he dies and there's a
narrative arc in there and Iknow we don't know all the
everyday pieces but there arethese big data points and for me
I'm like, if God is faithful inthose moments of their life,
surely he can be for mine.
So it helps me draw thesenarratives and then it places
(41:22):
them in this greater narrative.
There's 400 years between theOld Testament and New and when
Jesus comes.
This has always been myunderstanding of the Word of God
.
I have come to understand thebeauty, the grace, the depth of
the New Testament because of mystudies in the Old Like.
I feel like it just gives itsome real context.
So, speaking of bibletranslation, where we were
(41:45):
talking before the podcaststarted, I'm all for translating
the gospels, I'm like, but youneed to get the old testament
translated as well, the fullcorpus of the word of god.
Brian Stiller (41:54):
There's so much richness in there I remember the
first time I heard firstchronicles, 12, 32 quoted, and
david chose sons of Issachar whohad an understanding of the
times and who knew what Israelought to do.
And when I heard that I knewthat was my verse.
Wow, it framed the way Ithought.
It gave me focus as to myambition, yes, and it gave me a
(42:20):
framework of what to do, yeah.
So when I listened to you, Irealized that God uses those Old
Testament characters as a wayto, as almost a launching plan
for yourself in life or invarious circumstances.
Lisa Pak (42:37):
Yeah, and they're so human, so human, these Old
Testament characters, right, andI think that is both a source
of encouragement, but also let'snot, if we can help ourselves
and make the same mistakes theyhave but Lord knows, we all make
our mistakes speaks to what wewere just talking about a few
(43:04):
moments ago, about women inministry or women in leadership
or women in life, where here's ayoung woman who's an orphan,
who's a Jew, who's female.
So these, in that day and age,in the Persian empire, in the
ancient Near East, there arethree things that are
liabilities for her, and yet heuses a girl who's got these
liabilities against her to turnto go around the power politics
of all the men, and she is theChrist figure of that story.
(43:26):
So that ought to be a moment ofhope for all the girls out
there who feel overlooked by theworld.
God does see you and he willuse you for his kingdom purpose.
Brian Stiller (43:36):
Lisa Pak, thank you for joining us on
Evangelical 360.
Lisa Pak (43:40):
Thank you so much for having me, Brian.
Brian Stiller (43:42):
Thank you, lisa, for joining us today and for
providing us with a renewedunderstanding of the Christian
mission and the global church,and thank you for being a part
of the podcast.
Be sure to share this episode.
Use hashtag Evangelical360, andjoin the conversation on
YouTube in the notes below.
If you'd like to learn moreabout today's guest, be sure to
(44:06):
check the show notes for linksand info, and if you haven't
already received my free e-bookand newsletter, just go to
brianstillercom.
Thanks again, until next time,don't miss the next interview,
be sure to subscribe toEvangelical 360 on YouTube.
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