July 18, 2025 • 48 mins
What happens when a fired youth minister transforms his pain into a forty-year exploration of spiritual friendship? Norm Allen's remarkable journey reveals pathways to deeper connection with God and others that many evangelicals have missed.
After being unceremoniously dismissed in 1983, Allen faced a crucible moment—bitter, angry, and uncertain about his future. Rather than staying trapped in resentment (he eventually burned his journal of complaints), Allen discovered his unique gift for listening to leaders struggling with profound loneliness. This revelation launched Touchstone Ministries, where for four decades, he's cultivated spaces for spiritual friendship among businesspeople, ministry leaders, and seekers.
Allen's approach challenges conventional evangelical spirituality by mining two millennia of Christian tradition. "I'm basically a curious person, or you might call me a spiritual magpie," he explains. This curiosity led him to explore contemplative prayer through Ignatian spirituality, Celtic prayer rhythms, Franciscan meditation on the cross, and Benedictine hospitality. Rather than abandoning his evangelical roots, Allen integrated these ancient practices to enrich his Jesus-centered faith.
The heart of Allen's ministry centers on redefining friendship itself. Beyond mere friendliness, spiritual friendship involves intentionally creating space where Jesus becomes present in conversations. "We assume Jesus is present, but sometimes we need to sit together and say, 'Let's just sit in silence,'" Allen notes. This approach transforms relationships from networking or accountability into sacred encounters where mutual listening reveals God's voice.
For those feeling spiritually hungry or dissatisfied with surface-level faith experiences, Allen offers gentle wisdom: seek internal quietness amidst our noisy world, take responsibility for your spiritual journey rather than expecting church programs to fulfill every need, and test every practice by whether it helps you see Jesus more clearly.
You can learn more about Spiritual Friendship resources and retreats, and find Norm Allen's books at Touchstone.ca
And you can share this episode using hashtag #Evangelical360 and join the conversation online!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brian Stiller (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm your host, brian Stiller,and I'm pleased to share with
you another conversation withleaders, changemakers and
influencers impacting Christianlife around the world.
Be sure to share this episode,use hashtag Evangelical360, and
(00:31):
please subscribe on YouTube.
My guest today is Norm Allen,founder of Touchstone Ministries
and author of SpiritualFriendship the Art of being
Friends with God and a FewOthers.
For decades, norm has beencoming alongside believers from
all walks of life, inviting theminto a deeper discipleship
(00:52):
through spiritual retreat andfriendship.
In his book he writes thisSpiritual friendship exists at
the connection between ourdeepest longings for
experiencing God and our desireto become fully mature humans.
In our highly driven,cognitive-oriented culture, our
(01:12):
inner beings long for friendshipand connection with God, with
others who share our longing.
Join me as Norm and I talkabout the importance of growing
in spiritual maturity.
Norm, so good to have you onEvangelical 360.
Norm Allen (01:36):
I think it's nice to be here
Brian Stiller (01:37):
, norm.
It's probably best that we letpeople know that.
I guess it was 50 years agothis next month that we joined
together with Youth for.
Christ,
Norm Allen (01:47):
you were my president and I was a lowly
field lock.
Brian Stiller (01:53):
Well, in that time you emerged pretty quickly
into national leadership andover the time our friendship has
grown.
Norm Allen (02:02):
Yeah, I mean, we went from me being sort of the
newbie on the block I was 27 orwhatever and you were 35 and
pretended to know what you weredoing.
So we were in perfect shape.
You know, I was still not ableto even understand myself as a
leader.
But you came alongside me andsaid you know, you've got
leadership capacity, and so thatwas one of the big sort of
(02:22):
opening doors for me.
As I was being called, I felt,to follow Jesus in sort of the
world of evangelism throughYouth for Christ.
But then I saw my role as aleader develop, partly with your
encouragement.
And then when I went into thenational office and worked under
your leadership, then I hadlots of scope to then exercise
all the different gifts that Ihad and put myself across the
(02:46):
country helping other chaptersin Youth for Christ, and so it
was quite an interesting time.
And then, of course, we've beenthrough many ups and downs in
our lives.
You left YFC, went to EFC, thenTyndale and back to WEA and I
had touched on for 40 yearsafter I was sent out the door at
(03:06):
Youth for Christ.
But in the course of all ofthat you and I have walked like
brothers, with Jesus at thecenter, and we've been strength
for each other for a lot ofthose years.
Brian Stiller (03:19):
Norm, when you unceremoniously left the youth
ministry, you started a ministrycalled Touchstone, which I want
to get to in a moment, but justso people understand our
context, for about 25 yearseight of us, under your
leadership, have done retreatstwice a year.
(03:40):
We get at a cottage in north ofToronto on a lake somewhere.
We get at a cottage in north ofToronto on a lake somewhere in
the spring and the fall.
We have fun together, we pray,we Bible study together, we have
times of ceremonial blessingand the Lord's Supper, and that
(04:07):
has been for me, enormouslyhelpful in my growth and my
understanding of both kind ofthe spirituality framework of my
life, which as a Pentecostal,I'm not sure I understood that
well.
Norm Allen (04:12):
Well, you understood it in that particular way
Brian Stiller (04:14):
, yeah, but you brought to us all a larger
vision of, and a more historicvision of what God was doing
through others and could dothrough us.
So I guess the question talk abit about Touchstone itself so
people understand that ministry.
Norm Allen (04:29):
Right.
Well, I went throughoutplacement, counseling and had
help in sort of recalibratingwhat I was looking for,
developing everything fromdeveloping a CV and starting to
look for work and all that sortof thing.
And then it became clear, withsome help with some friends,
that they felt that there'ssomething about, whatever I do,
that I come alongside people, Ilisten well, leadership.
(04:52):
People who are lonely seem towant that, my support, not
necessarily for advice, but justto find companionship, to be
able to talk about the hardthings of life.
And then that out of that seemsthat community started to
develop.
And so they said if we couldfigure out a way to create a
covering for you, whichultimately became Touchstone
Ministries, we think we wouldlike to do that and then free
(05:14):
you up to explore that.
So that was June of 84.
And we had some kind of amission statement, but basically
we were trying to respond tothe need, particularly of men at
the time, of the loneliness ofleadership in business, politics
, the arts a bit, and those ofus in sort of spiritual
leadership.
(05:34):
And that really gave me 40 yearsto explore what are the things
that help nurture friendship,help nurture our own personal
lives as we face the dark timesand the joyful times in life,
and so that essentially thatboard, which was a terrific
(05:55):
resource for me they were almostlike my priests we ultimately
they gave me enough freedom thatI could then explore, rather
than saying, here's what you'vegot to accomplish in terms of
results.
It was like let's see what youneed to do to figure out what
this thing actually is, becausewe basically had a blank sheet
of paper in June of 84, anddidn't really know what we were
(06:17):
going to do.
But 40 years later it hadbecome defined as something that
we would have said is acommunity of people with Jesus
at the center of it andattempting to nurture spiritual
friendship.
But we'd been through many,many stages through that whole
period of time.
Brian Stiller (06:34):
Let me just go back to this transition that you
made and what you have learnedand what you might pass on to
others.
You're let go from a youthministry.
You're let go from a youthministry.
You're young, maybe a littledisillusioned and angry, unsure
of what to do next.
You came to understandsomething about yourself through
(06:55):
that and what the possibilitieswere.
Use that as a bit of a of ateaching moment for people who
may be at that point in theirown lives today.
Norm Allen (07:04):
Yeah, it's hard to know.
I mean I was definitelydevastated, angry, bitter you
add up all the negative emotionsyou can imagine.
So that happened a few daysbefore Christmas of 83.
We eventually negotiated thatas long as I continued to raise
my support I could be paid,rather than giving me a five-day
severance that they would giveme until June of 84, as long as
(07:28):
I raised the money, and so that.
But anyway, I was so angry andmy journaling reflected it.
You know the more.
I sort of processed it, and thathappens to anybody who's been
fired.
You doubt your value.
It affects your marriage.
Three weeks after you've beenlet go people are saying, well,
have you got a job yet?
(07:48):
And you want to pound themright.
But somewhere in there Jesus'crucifixion, burial and
resurrection became sort of Iwant to be like Christ in his
crucifixion, in his life, in hisdeath and in his resurrection.
So I started to process thatstuff and that began with the
(08:12):
help of a counselor in theoutplacement world, a mutual
friend of ours.
He was a lovely man and Istarted to try to figure out
what were my strengths, giftsand all that sort of stuff, and
it became clear that me, being abit of an entrepreneur was one
of those things.
But for me, to get spirituallyhealthy, there came a point
(08:33):
where I had to take that journaland burn it, because all that
journaling, of all that negativestuff, I never wanted to go
back and revisit it.
So we used to have a wood stovein our place in the country at
that time and I just lifted thelid and fired it in one morning
and said I don't want to revisitthat anymore.
I have to start looking forward,and so in a sense, that was one
of those things that you learnthat you need the company of
(08:55):
friends.
You can't do it alone.
Being fired and then trying torecalibrate your life is a hard,
hard job.
But calibrate your life is ahard, hard job.
But with you know, there wereall kinds of people who ended up
becoming resources for me,helping me understand myself,
helping me understand mypotential, helping me see the
opportunities.
And then some people who didcome alongside and say you know
(09:16):
we'll be with you as we startthis ministry, and they became
the board and it functionedreally, you know, obviously
never perfectly, because I wasinvolved, but it it had a form
of authority for me andprotection while I went out and
did something that nobodyunderstood, and it was just sort
of me hanging around in betweenthe cracks with leadership.
(09:36):
People in bay street, peoplelike you and people
how did that emerge?
beginning to build therelationships and beginning to
serve.
Was that an epiphany?
Did it happen and you said oh,I can do this, or somebody
called you and needed you.
How did that emerge?
Well, I know, near the end of my time at Youth for
Christ, we had a staffconference in Vancouver and we
(09:58):
had a sailboat ride up the riverfrom Vancouver or something, I
don't exactly remember, but Iremember being on the boat with
a bunch of the staff and listen,and as they talked to me, the
loneliness of the staff wasprofound.
And then it started to remindme that when I traveled the
country, I would, you know, Iwas your VP and so I was dealing
(10:18):
with boards and all that sortof stuff across the country and
trying to be an encouragement tostaff.
And uh, the reality was I wouldhave my corporate stuff that I
had to do for YFC.
But then, if I was sitting withthe board chairman in his
office, in his business, I'dtake off the Youth for Christ
hat and say well, how's it goingwith your life?
Well then, that changed thewhole conversation.
(10:39):
And then people would start topour out well, I've got no place
else to say this and thank youfor asking.
And so it became clear thatthere were, for whatever reason,
because I'm not the nicestperson in the world people do
trust me.
They will talk about their lifewith me.
I'm able then to somehowconnect them to other people who
become mutually helpful, andthen ultimately my goal isn't to
(11:10):
always be the one at the centerof that circle, but to try to
find a way to create somecircles of friendships that have
Jesus at the center, and then Ican be occasionally involved
with them, but they can bemutually beneficial to each
other without me always beingpresent.
Brian Stiller (11:17):
So it really emerged, as you listened and
observed, to need yeah, and atwhat point did it occur to you
that you had the capacity toenter into their lives and
provide some kind of spiritualor emotional amelioration?
Norm Allen (11:31):
Well, I think it was mainly, in a sense almost doing
an exegesis of the audience,right?
So you're saying, all right,what are the needs that I have?
So everything?
People always joke and sayNorm's the worst guy in
Touchstone, so if any of thestuff that he's learning can
help him, it'll help anybody,and so that's, that's so.
(11:51):
It was sort of.
Where's my spiritual hunger?
So my spiritual hunger led meto trying to figure out what it
was to be a follower of Jesus.
How do I understand that mywork matters to Jesus?
How do I understand thatvocation and prayer and labor,
they're all somehow integratedspiritually?
And so, as I was grappling withthat stuff, then I started
(12:13):
meeting with people downtown inToronto, in Bay Street, and that
was our primary focus.
And I would just start chattingand would say here's what I'm
thinking of doing.
And you know, blah, blah, blah.
And I remember on our 10thanniversary I got a note from
one of our guys downtown.
He couldn't be at the 10thanniversary party and he said
(12:33):
what an amazing proposition thatyou presented to those of us on
Bay Street hard-nosed businesspeople, one staff, no money and
a dream that we would start tobuild friendships in Christ.
And somehow, 10 years later, alot of good things have happened
, and so it was like it was oneof those things like a bee
shouldn't be able to fly Well,touchstone shouldn't have been
(12:54):
able to fly, but somehow I justI was a doggedly determined,
like people you know certainlyI'm a person of faith and I
think Jesus was going ahead ofme.
Like I had a couple of momentsonce or after we made the
decision to make it to startTouchstone, I went to see Oscar
Peterson at Roy Thompson Hallwith my brother-in-law and he
(13:15):
had his trio playing and it wasfantastic.
And then was he asked the trioto leave and then he suddenly
goes.
I'm going to play a song thatI've never played in public
before, called Ballad, and hestarted to play and it was like
I had this experience that thecreator of this music and the
(13:35):
creator had somehow cometogether with the ringing of
those keys and all I could hearwas Maranatha and it just was
being repeated in my mind come,lord Jesus, lord, jesus, come.
And I felt like that was theimprimatur, that I was supposed
to be downtown, and so I hadthose kinds of moments of
(13:57):
affirmation, but also had lotsof days of discouragement where
there was no money and I didn'tknow how I was going to pay for
parking to get my car out of theparking garage after I had my
appointments with people.
But somehow, by just spending alot of time with people.
We wanted to not create eventswith famous speakers, we wanted
to create a community so thatpeople wanted to be together and
(14:19):
that they became thespokespersons to each other.
It wasn't me the expert onfaith and work, or faith and
prayer and all those kinds ofthings.
I was coming alongside withthem, providing leadership and
vision, but somehow providingfocus.
And so then, as that group got,I got to understand them, the
need to understand prayer.
How do we help each other withour inner journey?
(14:41):
How do we help each otheractually have conversations that
aren't just competitive, thataren't just Bay Street
networking, but are in fact letme listen to you as opposed to
talk to you?
And you know, you and I bothknow that one of the struggles
we have is we're trained to talk, not listen.
And so if our touchstone'swhole thing is we're here to
(15:03):
listen to God and to listen toone another and to respect Jesus
in you, then that's a wholedifferent kind of deal that
we're trying to deal with.
And so it was a huge learningcurve for me, and so I started
out with the whole.
You know, we got to figure outhow to have devotions or
something or how to have aprayer life.
And then we got into faith andwork and the value of work in
(15:27):
the sense of you know,spirituality of vocation, that
if you're a banker and you'reusing the God-given gifts you
have, it's as though you werepainting the Sistine Chapel just
the same as because I can be asvenal preaching a sermon as
they can doing a deal, or we canbe as spiritual on both of
those things.
And so, as we grappled with allof those things and I kept
(15:49):
listening and learning, and thenI was learning myself.
That then led me to the ancientstreams, because I was now
being drawn to.
We've got to find some deeperways to learn to pray and to
have community.
Brian Stiller (16:01):
And that leads to this very important part of
both your own pilgrimage and howyou have been helpful to me and
to us, and it's this we comeout of an evangelical tradition,
a Baptist Pentecostal.
We have lived within thetraditions, the forms of worship
(16:22):
, the music, the way of readingand understanding Scripture.
That's very typical evangelical, of reading and understanding
Scripture that's very typicalevangelical.
I suspect that most of us havethought that the Church began
with us, but you have rightlyshown us how that the ancients,
(16:48):
the various people and theirprayers and ideas and
spirituality over these last2,000 years can greatly enrich
us and isn't simply to beignored as historical.
How did that, as a fount ofspirituality, come into your
life?
Norm Allen (17:04):
Well, part of it is.
I'm basically a curious person,or you might even call me a
spiritual magpie in a way, inthe sense that I had a hunger to
know Jesus wider than whatevermy tradition did.
I was well-grounded inScripture.
We had a wonderful pastor whowe grew up under, lots of
leadership development in thatBaptist church, but I somehow
(17:27):
intuitively knew that there wasmuch more, and sort of
eventually understood over yearsthat all traditions have
something to offer us.
None of them, though, issufficient, and so what I was
growing up in had an element ofthe gospel that was true, and an
(17:47):
understanding of the cross thatwas true, and certainly a very
Jesus-centric thing, which wasvery important to me.
But then you know how theyunderstood Scripture, how they
understood community, how theyunderstood the Christian life.
I realized it was a particularway, and in those years it
didn't matter what the traditionwas.
We all stayed in our own tribe.
So United didn't like Anglicans, and Baptists didn't trust
(18:10):
anybody else.
And you know, the Brethren wereperfect, and the Pentecostals,
you know.
You just didn't know what theywere doing.
But anyway, that was, but itwas.
But you know.
But I had then got exposed to aPentecostal church and
participated in that.
I had went on retreats, as youknow, with Bernie, with oh his
name goes out of my head, butanyway he's the godfather of the
charismatic movement in Torontoand so I was suddenly being
(18:31):
exposed to all this stuff as ahigh school kid and so I knew
there were all kinds of thingsout there that seemed attractive
and certainly seemed legitimate.
So, anyway, as I was gettingolder and you know reading
people like GK Chesterton or TSEliot or Lewis or whoever, and
then that leads to Merton, leadsto other people, you start to
go okay, there's something here,there might be some fresh water
(18:53):
over here behind that rock orwhatever, and so that led me to
sort of contemplative prayer andthinking about spiritual
direction and all of that sortof thing.
So my spiritual direction thinghappened really in the Ignatian
tradition, and so that had awhole lot of richness to it.
What the Ignatian tradition is.
(19:14):
Well, so that's, you know,basically Loyola, the Jesuits,
and so they have a particularapproach to prayer.
Ignatius had this you imagineyourself in a story of Jesus'
life, and then you go throughthe version of the 40-day
retreat, which really groundsyour being and discernment and
all kinds of things.
(19:34):
But I didn't want to become aJesuit, so I didn't want to stay
being just a Baptist or anevangelical and I didn't want to
become a Jesuit Boy.
There was some really goodstuff there, and then my
director put me to a Franciscanwho was just down the road from
where I lived at the time, andso I did some direction with a
Franciscan guy.
Well, now then I ended up inAssisi and then you start to see
(19:56):
, francis had a whole otherapproach and he had a companion,
claire, saint Claire, and thenBonaventure was his sort of his
articulator, of mission guy.
But she was the contemplativeand she took the old-style lexio
that most monastics use, justreading scripture over and over
(20:16):
again, hearing a word and thenmeditating on it.
And then Ignatius has thisreally imagined self-history of
Jesus like.
Well, clare had this idea thatthe only Bible that we need is
the cross, idea that the onlyBible that we need is the cross.
Now, I don't happen to agreewith that, but her passion was
to look at Jesus on the crucifixthat she had in her chapel and
(20:40):
gaze on him, consider him,meditate on him and inevitably
you will imitate him on him.
And inevitably you will imitatehim because you become what you
observe, which was MarshallMcLuhan's observation in
Understanding Media decades ago.
And so I started you know,sorry again.
(21:04):
So like I still use Jesuitstuff, I still use Franciscan
stuff.
I went and spent a week with theBenedictines.
Their whole thing ishospitality.
Went and spent a week with theBenedictines.
Their whole thing ishospitality.
And you know rigid disciplinesbut they work in the fields and
you know they say treat yourshovel with the same respect
that you treat the cup for theEucharist.
So we polished them, both kindof thing.
So I suddenly went wow, there'sa whole lot of this stuff and I
(21:25):
got this sense that this wasall ours and it came to.
I articulated it well, one timeI was in Florence on a trip with
a group and we had been toAssisi and we came back to
Florence and we were staying atthis place and looking out over
the olive groves on the hillsideand there was a woman from
(21:46):
Santa Fe, new Mexico, standingthere and Susan and I were there
having a glass of wine, lookingout at the fields while we're
waiting for the rest of thegroup to get there, and she
turned to me and she said I wishFrancis was one of ours.
And I said no, and ours meaningWell, it turns out she was
(22:07):
Presbyterian.
Okay, I said well, when didFrancis live?
We've just been discussing it?
Well, 1200.
Well, when was the schism?
So is he any more Catholic thanhe is Presbyterian?
No, he's part of yourPresbyterian history, so he is
ours.
So it wasn't me saying, okay,I'm going to adopt something
Catholic, although my mother wasvery suspicious that that was
(22:30):
the case.
I didn't want to become aCatholic, I didn't want to
become a Jesuit, I didn't wantto become a Franciscan, but I
knew there were things aboutlistening to God and listening
to each other and learning aboutvocation and all of those kinds
of things that all these longhistoric traditions had great
wisdom in.
They have all their faults andyou know there's as many crazy
(22:51):
people in a monastery as thereare, you know, in my
neighborhood.
But they also are grapplingwith some things that I think
help us in the marketplace, withthe speed of life and the
overstimulation, that we have tofind ways to create quiet, and
not just external quiet, butinternal quiet.
So how do we create internalstillness?
(23:12):
And that's where then the wholespiritual friendship thing
comes in.
But and then you know, as youknow, I also then spent a fair
bit of time on Celticspirituality of a certain kind,
and Celtic spirituality is Well,you know, it comes out of a
group of monks that establishedthemselves in Ireland.
And then where I spent most ofmy time was Lindisfarne, holy
(23:35):
Island, and there was amonastery originally there that
had been established at theinvitation of one of the local
warlords and somebody had comeacross from Iona and had
established it there.
And then there was a virtualcommunity, the community of
Aidan Hilda, with a friend ofmine, ray Simpson, there.
So I spent a couple of weeks atdifferent times reading and
(23:56):
listening and thinking andparticipating in their community
and it's very Jesus-centric.
But again, it has a greaterunderstanding of the presence of
God in all of creation, thepresence of God and the
significance of God and how youlight a fire, how you, you know,
may God be with you as you putthose logs together and light
(24:18):
the fire that sort of earthiness.
It's got a certain kind ofmirroring to Orthodox.
So the Orthodox have a greatsense of, you know, may God be
with you as your step hits thatrock and all that sort of thing.
So I've got a collection ofOrthodox prayers that could be
Celtic prayers, but they have away of getting at Jesus and
(24:40):
getting at community that isactually really quite health
giving.
But again, I didn't want tobecome.
You know, ray was my friend butI didn't want to become part of
his group.
I learned a whole bunch ofstuff from him and have stolen a
bunch of his prayers.
But it's like all of theseresources are out there and why
wouldn't we learn from them Notuncritically, but not learn from
(25:04):
them, because if they help usprovide some kind of structure
in our spiritual, physical,emotional meanderings to settle
down, to be quiet, to listen toGod, to be able to listen to
each other, then why wouldn't Ilearn from those things?
Our background tends to be morewe're about preaching the gospel
(25:26):
and, yes, we do our devotionsand we pray and all that sort of
stuff, but it's almost like wehave practices that aren't
necessarily shaping our lives.
But these practices, in myopinion, have certainly enriched
me and I believe have helpedshape me and then shape the way
I listen to other people, theway the community of friends has
(25:49):
developed that you've been partof for a lot of years, because
the guys that you and I havebeen part of for those 25 years.
All very different, differenttraditions, different
backgrounds.
Everybody's got more education,theologically, than me.
I have a degree in English, butI've been this sort of seeker
who you know.
As you know, john Vissers hadthis image of me one time being
(26:11):
a guy who sort of goes down atunnel with a candle and says
the Christ candle and says, oh,I think I found something over
here and it's because I'm hungryand needy and hurting I go to
that and then when I find it tobe helpful, I share it with
others.
Brian Stiller (26:32):
So you've been mining 2,000 years of church
history yeah, various people,yeah, and so you bring together
an amalgam of the best that youhave found.
Can you describe where you aretoday and what would be the
essence of yourself-understanding, your walk
(26:52):
with Christ, your imaginingyourself in his presence?
Can you describe that?
Norm Allen (27:00):
Well, it's an interesting time because, as you
know, I retired from the roleof touchstone in June of 24.
And so in a way, I'm I but Istill have the.
So I gave up that, in a sense,professional structure, but I'm
still called to be a follower ofJesus.
(27:20):
I'm still called to be hisfriend and to be friends with
other people.
But I'm waiting to see how thatexpresses itself.
So I just happened to do aretreat last weekend.
It's the first one eight, ninemonths since I retired that I
actually went and used mymaterials and led a group of
people in retreat.
But I've been using my listeningskills and friendship skills at
(27:41):
the food bank and in a gospelchoir and all that sort of thing
.
So I'm basically listening to.
Where does Jesus want to opendoors for me to do something?
It was good for me to do thatretreat because I hadn't done it
in a long time, so I can stilldo that sort of thing, but I
don't need to do it all the timeand I don't need to generate
(28:03):
anything.
So for me it's, I still get upin the morning and feel like
Jesus is inviting me to have aconversation with him, and so
I'm very much as called to be afollower of Jesus, as I was the
day I started Tushnow.
But I don't have thatobligation to initiate, manage
(28:24):
and organize a ministry.
But now maybe be moreresponsive just to opportunities
as they are provided.
Brian Stiller (28:31):
But how is your walk affected by the amalgam
mind through these varioustraditions?
How would you be differenttoday?
What are the kind of things youdo in your own devotional life
that gives you richness?
Norm Allen (28:50):
And it really does vary depending on time and day.
You know, mine is fairly simplemost of the time, in the sense
that I use a journal and I'm anLuddite enough that I have to
use a fountain pen.
Brian Stiller (29:03):
So journaling has been a part of your life.
Norm Allen (29:04):
Central to mine.
So journaling has been a partof your life Central to mine.
So I got up this morning andmade coffee and the sun wasn't
up yet and turned on the fire,and when I had my coffee I got
my journal book out and I lookedat the guide that said here's
the gospel story you're going tolook at this morning.
And so then I just startedwriting.
Well, it's dark and cold, but Ihad a good day yesterday and
(29:29):
I'm going to be meeting withBrian today and doing this
podcast thing, and so I'm justsort of settling here in here
with this amazing mystery thatyou care about everybody, but
somehow I feel like you'relistening to me particularly,
and so and then I take some timeto.
We have mutual friends thathave some issues that they ask
prayer for.
(29:49):
So I was praying for that,praying for Lily as she faces
some challenges, and then wentto the gospel story and just
spent some time listening to it,reading it, and what was Jesus
saying?
What was he looking like?
Does he have sweat on his brow?
How is he feeling with thefriends that are around him?
And then just trying tointeract with him and saying
(30:13):
well, jesus, that's.
I feel like that might besomething that I need to think
about today, and so it's.
But there are other times whenI might use the liturgy of the
hours that the monks use, thatthe monks use, or I might use.
There's Northumbria community,south of the folks at Holy
Island, who have terrific Celticprayer book which has all kinds
(30:33):
of ways of teaching you to prayand to think and to you know
songs to sing and everythingelse.
So it just depends on what Ifeel my needs are.
I think Henry, nowen years ago Ilistened to some tapes tells
you how long ago it was, becauseit was tapes and he did a thing
on the Desert Fathers that wasvery helpful to me and you know
we're in this wordy world andit's the way his language would
(30:55):
go, but it was trying to getaway from the noise.
But he talked about spiritualdisciplines and he said they're
like scaffolding on a building,and that's been very helpful to
me, because once a building hasits own internal structural
integrity, it doesn't needscaffolding anymore, and so as
(31:16):
we get older, the disciplinesthat may have got us to this
point may not be as necessary.
So sometime you and I might saywell, let's go away on retreat
together and rather than usingall our dolls and dishes that we
use to normally do a retreat,we might say why don't we just
sit together?
We already are aware that we'rein the presence of God, and
(31:37):
we've done that.
Last summer we sat for a longtime looking at the lake we
didn't need any externalstructure for that, because the
internal stuff was already thereand we just sat and had
conversations that we knew thatGod was central to, and the pain
or the joy in the center ofboth of our lives at those
(31:57):
moments became part of a naturalconversation, not something
forced in the midst of all ofthis, you have articulated and
demonstrated an idea offriendship which has defined
your work.
Brian Stiller (32:17):
Was this again an epiphany or did it emerge out
of your mining of the?
ancients.
Norm Allen (32:26):
Yeah, I'm not much of an epiphany guy, but I would
say I said we wanted to offerfriendship, but I don't think I
knew what I meant.
So I spent the last 40 yearsfiguring out what it meant to be
friends and studying what afriend is, using John the
(32:46):
Baptist, for instance, as aprototype.
He took joy in somebody else'ssuccess.
Jesus says no greater love hassomeone for, but they lay down
their life for their friend.
Well, if we're really friends,we lay down our agenda for each
other and say let me just listento you.
(33:06):
And so, over time, I began tounderstand that friendship was
something that required work,just like marriage does.
So if you're going to be in agood friendship, then that
requires attention, and itrequires time and mutual support
and all those kinds of things.
So when times are tough, thereare certain people that we know
we can turn to and they'rereally our friends.
(33:28):
We have friendships on allkinds of different levels, but
there are those who are closerthan a brother kind of thing
friends, and that's different.
Now I then have in a senseadded to it by calling it
spiritual friendship, which isin a sense out of the sort of
the Celtic model of anim, caria,caria, soul friend, where your
(33:50):
friendship?
We can have a solid friendship,but our friendship will change
if we take time to dointentional practices that
invite Jesus to be part of theconversation.
We assume Jesus is present, butsometimes we need to be able to
sit together and say, okay,let's just sit in silence and
we'll listen to a psalm andwe'll see what the psalm is
(34:12):
saying to us, with no agenda andno right or wrong answers.
Let's just look at a gospelstory.
Let's see Jesus by the seashorefeeding the fellows after a
long day of fishing, and he'screated a barbecue for them.
Let's imagine that together.
Well, that can change, then,the nature of how we function,
(34:32):
because now we're trying to findways to consciously bring the
presence of Jesus into ourconversation, differently than
we're just really good listenersto each other, Because now
we're somehow saying we'relistening to Jesus and we maybe
even hope that he might saysomething to us, and that he
might say something to us thatwe can reassure each other is
(34:55):
truth, not just fantasy, and oneof the things you know, like in
the traditions that we grew upin, accountability was a big
thing and that was more scrutiny.
Okay, well, you did these threethings wrong.
Well, in my understanding offriendship, and spiritual
friendship particularly, we'rehelping each other here.
What is Jesus really saying tome about this?
(35:15):
Is that the way Jesus wouldtalk to me.
When we beat ourselves up, whenwe all fail I have more failures
than Carter's got little liverpills but Jesus doesn't focus on
that he says, yes, we got toclean that up.
But he'll then say, got to bereminded I love you.
You've got to be reminded thata bad tree doesn't produce good
(35:39):
fruit.
So therefore, you must be agood tree because you know
there's been the odd bit of goodfruit out of your life and we
need to be able to tell eachother those things, rather than
you know.
Hard things we sometimes have tosay to each other and we've had
to do that for each other overthe years but the blessing
things are often harder for us,particularly as men, to say you
(36:02):
know what you are, somebodywhose love has meant the world
to me, or I see these amazingaccomplishments for you, when
you're not feeling secure andyou're not feeling strong, so
that we're not pumping eachother's tires.
We're just speaking truth inlove about who we see God
shaping that person, because sooften our view of ourselves is
(36:25):
so negative that it's you knowit becomes destructive.
Brian Stiller (36:30):
You've talked about the friendship of Jesus.
Now, jesus to be a friend is nobig deal.
You've talked about thefriendship of Jesus.
Now, jesus to be a friend is nobig deal, but there's been
something in there, ourfriendship with him, which has
been new for you and, because ofthat, for us.
Unwrap that a bit.
Norm Allen (36:48):
Yeah, and that goes back a long way.
I've been noodling basicallytwo things Jesus' prayer in John
17, particularly where he saysI'm not praying only for these
guys in the garden, but I'mpraying for those who will
believe in me because of theirmessage that they would be one
Father, as you and I are one,and so that they would then know
(37:08):
that you love them as much asyou love me.
And then, certainly, jesus'discussion in the upper room in
John 15, where he says I nolonger call you servants, I call
you friends, is preceded by himsaying greater love has no one,
that they lay down their lifefor their friends, and so he
laid down his life for us, bydefinition, then his friends,
(37:32):
and so it's not some sort ofsappy friendship thing.
This is highly demandingbecause if I want to listen to
Jesus as my friend, or I want tobe a friend of Jesus who
represents him, then I have tosee the cross.
I have to see the scars when heserves me.
If I imagine that I'm by theseashore receiving the fish and
(37:55):
the bread that morning, I seethe scars in his hands.
So I know that, as he said toPeter, there's going to come a
time when somebody's going tolead you around where you don't
want to go, like moving intosuffering, self-denial,
self-control, all of those kindsof things, none of which you
know, are particularly naturalto me.
Those are the things that afriendship with Jesus draws us
(38:17):
to, because then that enables usto then be mutually submissive
to each other in a healthy way.
We can actually be humblebefore each other and care for
each other.
One of my friends says it's notJesus, my girlfriend, kind of
stuff.
This is serious business,because every time you listen to
(38:40):
Jesus speak, you know I wantyour joy to be full.
Oh well, what happened to thoseguys that he said that to Jesus
prayed tears in the garden.
So if you want to pray, it'snot the yellow brick road, it
may take you to the cross, itmay take you to some form of
cross, right.
And so that's where, if we'reserious about this engagement
(39:02):
with Jesus and him dignifying usenough to say I'd like to call
you my friend, then it's serious, costly business, and that's
why you know it's been importantto me, why it's been important
to me, norm.
Brian Stiller (39:15):
I want to come back in a moment to what you
might suggest for people whoaspire for something deeper, so
something a little richer towhat they've had up to now.
Let me just do a couple ofthings.
This is a picture.
This is one of Norm's retreatguides.
Now this is available onTouchstone website.
(39:37):
Yeah, so just Touchstone.
ca, touchstone.
ca, and you'll find in here avariety of things, and we have
used this, and, of course, youhave a number of these, right,
but you have used this in whatway?
Just give me a bit descriptionof how this works.
Norm Allen (39:53):
Well, essentially it's a guidebook for our time
together, because I don't, likeyou know, I animate the retreat
or I lead the retreat, but Idon't like it to be my voice all
the time.
So it's got.
Here are things to consider,here are ways to pray, here are
some passages of scripture toconsider.
Here's a collection of prayersthat you can use as you try to
get into prayer.
(40:14):
Here's a collection of prayersthat you can use as you try to
get into prayer.
And then we've got what we callthe Celtic Meal of Jesus, which
is a liturgy that's modeled onthe Iona community's liturgy for
when we break bread together.
So it's really designed tofacilitate conversation amongst
the people who are there, and oruse it on your own for prayer
guidance.
Brian Stiller (40:33):
And there's a whole bunch of other stuff on
the website that you knowsuggestions for prayer,
collections of prayer, podcastsand that sort of thing, the one
thing that I found to be reallyhelpful in the retreat and
nobody has ever, in myexperience, dared to do this
Norm would take and ask us totake a text, and usually in his
(40:54):
prayer guides there's a varietyof Bible passages all from the
Gospels, as I recall and hewould take one of those and go
away for 90 minutes.
Now, for a type A highlygoal-oriented person, 90 minutes
being alone up by a lakelooking at a text was a bit of a
self-discipline Right, but youforced us into it.
Norm Allen (41:18):
But you found it.
Ultimately, the time actuallywent.
Brian Stiller (41:21):
Oh yeah, but what you did, you helped us, and I
guess this is more of anIgnatius principle.
You helped us get into the textand what I found to be of great
value is you encouraged us toimagine yourself as a member or
an observer in the text andlisten and watch, to see what
(41:43):
you hear, and see from thatpoint of view, and I found that
often texts would just comealive in ways that I'd never
known.
So there's some very important.
You can access this material.
Norm Allen (41:55):
Touchstone.
ca
Brian Stiller (41:56):
Yeah, on friendship, which is, I think,
has been key to Norm's ministryspiritual friendship.
This is a book that you didthat defines what you mean by
friendship, right, andfriendship is more than being
friendly.
Norm Allen (42:10):
Right, because I'm often not that friendly.
Exactly.
Brian Stiller (42:14):
And the latest ones that you did, which was
kind of brought to the end ofTouchstone Pop the Corks and
Pass the Butter Tarts.
I don't think I've ever seen abook with that title.
Norm Allen (42:26):
Right.
So that's essentiallyreflections along the lines of
what we've been talking about 40years of spiritual friendship,
and that was kind of my thankyou note to our community.
And there's a few people whoalso wrote in response to
different chapters.
Brian Stiller (42:41):
Norm.
I'm hearing from so many peopleand so this is not just
occasional, but I see a bit of apattern.
People of my own evangelicalPentecostal community who have a
hunger for something that'sricher in their walk, deeper in
their understanding of Christand a little less doctrinal or
(43:01):
traditional.
And some have gone into theOrthodox Church.
Many of my Pentecostal friendshave become Anglican because
they can have the Eucharisticexperience, right experience.
So for those that are in thatsearch some counsel on what to
(43:21):
do, what not to do where to go,how to think, what to read.
Norm Allen (43:30):
Yeah, I'm always hesitant, as you know, to offer
that kind of counsel because myjourney has been not unlike many
of them that you described, andso becoming part of the United
Church in Orangeville when wemoved there 50 years ago was one
of the best church experienceswe had.
And then it blew up, so I nowattend an Anglican church.
I'm a member of an Anglicanchurch in Orangeville, but it's
(43:53):
more what is your own internalspiritual journey.
So one of the things I learnedearly on was that I could
participate in the church and Icould offer leadership in the
church and I can, you know, beon committees and do whatever,
but the church is never actuallygoing to be able to really help
me with my own leadership andspiritual needs.
So I had to figure out a way tofigure that out myself, and so
(44:16):
I did eventually start, you know, collecting some friends who
helped me with that sort ofthing, and I think that's part
of it's taking responsibilityfor your own life.
I think I hear people oftensaying, well, it's not deep
enough and it's not this, and sopeople are leaving for critical
reasons.
I think if you're moving somedirection, see if it's helping
you see Jesus more.
(44:37):
So for me that's a bit of alitmus test.
For me it is because if all itis is okay, now I've found a
happier you know, instead ofhappy clappy music, I've now got
, you know, I've now got anorgan and a choir.
That's great, but Jesus is inboth of those places and if it's
helping your soul, that's great.
And are you doing it assomething that's communal and
(45:00):
it's part of relationalengagement, or is it just
something that's Because when Ifirst started going to the
Anglican Church, coming out ofan unhappy situation, a bit of a
church conflict, I was in asense doing the liturgy,
standing and kneeling, but itwas really a private spiritual
activity for probably the firstyear and it only became more
communal later.
But I think, part of what, ifyou've got a spiritual hunger
(45:23):
and maybe you've got somebodyelse who shares that, well then
talk about it with each otherand there are all kinds of
resources.
I don't know what the youngergeneration does today because
everybody's listening to thingsdifferently.
I read books, but people arenow listening to podcasts and
doing all that sort of thing.
But I would say, if you canfind ways to help you develop
(45:45):
some inner quiet not just soyou're quiet, not just sort of a
yoga meditation thing, butsomething that makes you quiet
enough to somehow hear Jesusthen those are the kinds of
processes that we want, becauseright now we're so bombarded
with sensate activity whetherit's, you know, screens and
devices or whatever it is thatit's really hard to start to
(46:08):
just settle in and say, okay,I'm just going to see if I can
see Jesus in the Gospels.
And there are all kinds oftools where you can find that.
Some of them get referred to onmy website.
But I think each generation hasto find their own way, and they
have to find their own way tocreate the friendships with one
another.
So my grandkids, who areuniversity age, and my kids, who
(46:29):
are, you know, 50-ish, thosetwo generations do it completely
differently from each other andcertainly differently from me,
and so it's finding the waysthat.
And yet the need for friendshipin all of those generations is
the same, and certainlyfriendship with God.
And so how one does that, Ithink, is taking responsibility
(46:50):
for one's life and takinginitiative to find the resources
, because years ago I read abook on spiritual direction that
was very helpful and one of thepoints the guy made was God
knows that you have a desire tohave a spiritual director or to
have some kind of differentdirection in your spiritual life
.
Don't force it.
(47:12):
Explore, and then it willeventually be provided.
And that's been true in my lifeover and over and over again.
I have a hunger and then somethread takes me to somebody and
I read that or I have aconversation about it, and then
somehow Jesus is in that andthen I'm able to share it with
(47:34):
other people out of whateverenrichment I have received in my
own life.
Brian Stiller (47:39):
Thanks, Norm, for being part of Evangelical 360
today.
Norm Allen (47:42):
Thank you for having me.
It's been fun.
Brian Stiller (47:44):
It has.
Thank you, norm, for joining metoday and for helping us see the
possibilities of a greater anda richer walk in faith.
Thank you for being a part ofthe podcast.
Be sure to share this episode.
Use hashtag Evangelical360, andplease subscribe on YouTube If
(48:06):
you'd like to learn more abouttoday's guest.
Just check the show notes forlinks and info and if you
haven't already received my freee-book and newsletter just go
to brianstillercom.
(48:26):
Thank you, until next time.
Don't miss the next interview.
Be sure to subscribe toEvangelical 360 on YouTube.
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm your host, brian Stiller,and I'm pleased to share with
you another conversation withleaders, changemakers and
influencers impacting Christianlife around the world.
Be sure to share this episode,use hashtag Evangelical360, and
(00:31):
please subscribe on YouTube.
My guest today is Norm Allen,founder of Touchstone Ministries
and author of SpiritualFriendship the Art of being
Friends with God and a FewOthers.
For decades, norm has beencoming alongside believers from
all walks of life, inviting theminto a deeper discipleship
(00:52):
through spiritual retreat andfriendship.
In his book he writes thisSpiritual friendship exists at
the connection between ourdeepest longings for
experiencing God and our desireto become fully mature humans.
In our highly driven,cognitive-oriented culture, our
(01:12):
inner beings long for friendshipand connection with God, with
others who share our longing.
Join me as Norm and I talkabout the importance of growing
in spiritual maturity.
Norm, so good to have you onEvangelical 360.
Norm Allen (01:36):
I think it's nice to be here
Brian Stiller (01:37):
, norm.
It's probably best that we letpeople know that.
I guess it was 50 years agothis next month that we joined
together with Youth for.
Christ,
Norm Allen (01:47):
you were my president and I was a lowly
field lock.
Brian Stiller (01:53):
Well, in that time you emerged pretty quickly
into national leadership andover the time our friendship has
grown.
Norm Allen (02:02):
Yeah, I mean, we went from me being sort of the
newbie on the block I was 27 orwhatever and you were 35 and
pretended to know what you weredoing.
So we were in perfect shape.
You know, I was still not ableto even understand myself as a
leader.
But you came alongside me andsaid you know, you've got
leadership capacity, and so thatwas one of the big sort of
(02:22):
opening doors for me.
As I was being called, I felt,to follow Jesus in sort of the
world of evangelism throughYouth for Christ.
But then I saw my role as aleader develop, partly with your
encouragement.
And then when I went into thenational office and worked under
your leadership, then I hadlots of scope to then exercise
all the different gifts that Ihad and put myself across the
(02:46):
country helping other chaptersin Youth for Christ, and so it
was quite an interesting time.
And then, of course, we've beenthrough many ups and downs in
our lives.
You left YFC, went to EFC, thenTyndale and back to WEA and I
had touched on for 40 yearsafter I was sent out the door at
(03:06):
Youth for Christ.
But in the course of all ofthat you and I have walked like
brothers, with Jesus at thecenter, and we've been strength
for each other for a lot ofthose years.
Brian Stiller (03:19):
Norm, when you unceremoniously left the youth
ministry, you started a ministrycalled Touchstone, which I want
to get to in a moment, but justso people understand our
context, for about 25 yearseight of us, under your
leadership, have done retreatstwice a year.
(03:40):
We get at a cottage in north ofToronto on a lake somewhere.
We get at a cottage in north ofToronto on a lake somewhere in
the spring and the fall.
We have fun together, we pray,we Bible study together, we have
times of ceremonial blessingand the Lord's Supper, and that
(04:07):
has been for me, enormouslyhelpful in my growth and my
understanding of both kind ofthe spirituality framework of my
life, which as a Pentecostal,I'm not sure I understood that
well.
Norm Allen (04:12):
Well, you understood it in that particular way
Brian Stiller (04:14):
, yeah, but you brought to us all a larger
vision of, and a more historicvision of what God was doing
through others and could dothrough us.
So I guess the question talk abit about Touchstone itself so
people understand that ministry.
Norm Allen (04:29):
Right.
Well, I went throughoutplacement, counseling and had
help in sort of recalibratingwhat I was looking for,
developing everything fromdeveloping a CV and starting to
look for work and all that sortof thing.
And then it became clear, withsome help with some friends,
that they felt that there'ssomething about, whatever I do,
that I come alongside people, Ilisten well, leadership.
(04:52):
People who are lonely seem towant that, my support, not
necessarily for advice, but justto find companionship, to be
able to talk about the hardthings of life.
And then that out of that seemsthat community started to
develop.
And so they said if we couldfigure out a way to create a
covering for you, whichultimately became Touchstone
Ministries, we think we wouldlike to do that and then free
(05:14):
you up to explore that.
So that was June of 84.
And we had some kind of amission statement, but basically
we were trying to respond tothe need, particularly of men at
the time, of the loneliness ofleadership in business, politics
, the arts a bit, and those ofus in sort of spiritual
leadership.
(05:34):
And that really gave me 40 yearsto explore what are the things
that help nurture friendship,help nurture our own personal
lives as we face the dark timesand the joyful times in life,
and so that essentially thatboard, which was a terrific
(05:55):
resource for me they were almostlike my priests we ultimately
they gave me enough freedom thatI could then explore, rather
than saying, here's what you'vegot to accomplish in terms of
results.
It was like let's see what youneed to do to figure out what
this thing actually is, becausewe basically had a blank sheet
of paper in June of 84, anddidn't really know what we were
(06:17):
going to do.
But 40 years later it hadbecome defined as something that
we would have said is acommunity of people with Jesus
at the center of it andattempting to nurture spiritual
friendship.
But we'd been through many,many stages through that whole
period of time.
Brian Stiller (06:34):
Let me just go back to this transition that you
made and what you have learnedand what you might pass on to
others.
You're let go from a youthministry.
You're let go from a youthministry.
You're young, maybe a littledisillusioned and angry, unsure
of what to do next.
You came to understandsomething about yourself through
(06:55):
that and what the possibilitieswere.
Use that as a bit of a of ateaching moment for people who
may be at that point in theirown lives today.
Norm Allen (07:04):
Yeah, it's hard to know.
I mean I was definitelydevastated, angry, bitter you
add up all the negative emotionsyou can imagine.
So that happened a few daysbefore Christmas of 83.
We eventually negotiated thatas long as I continued to raise
my support I could be paid,rather than giving me a five-day
severance that they would giveme until June of 84, as long as
(07:28):
I raised the money, and so that.
But anyway, I was so angry andmy journaling reflected it.
You know the more.
I sort of processed it, and thathappens to anybody who's been
fired.
You doubt your value.
It affects your marriage.
Three weeks after you've beenlet go people are saying, well,
have you got a job yet?
(07:48):
And you want to pound themright.
But somewhere in there Jesus'crucifixion, burial and
resurrection became sort of Iwant to be like Christ in his
crucifixion, in his life, in hisdeath and in his resurrection.
So I started to process thatstuff and that began with the
(08:12):
help of a counselor in theoutplacement world, a mutual
friend of ours.
He was a lovely man and Istarted to try to figure out
what were my strengths, giftsand all that sort of stuff, and
it became clear that me, being abit of an entrepreneur was one
of those things.
But for me, to get spirituallyhealthy, there came a point
(08:33):
where I had to take that journaland burn it, because all that
journaling, of all that negativestuff, I never wanted to go
back and revisit it.
So we used to have a wood stovein our place in the country at
that time and I just lifted thelid and fired it in one morning
and said I don't want to revisitthat anymore.
I have to start looking forward,and so in a sense, that was one
of those things that you learnthat you need the company of
(08:55):
friends.
You can't do it alone.
Being fired and then trying torecalibrate your life is a hard,
hard job.
But calibrate your life is ahard, hard job.
But with you know, there wereall kinds of people who ended up
becoming resources for me,helping me understand myself,
helping me understand mypotential, helping me see the
opportunities.
And then some people who didcome alongside and say you know
(09:16):
we'll be with you as we startthis ministry, and they became
the board and it functionedreally, you know, obviously
never perfectly, because I wasinvolved, but it it had a form
of authority for me andprotection while I went out and
did something that nobodyunderstood, and it was just sort
of me hanging around in betweenthe cracks with leadership.
(09:36):
People in bay street, peoplelike you and people
how did that emerge?
beginning to build therelationships and beginning to
serve.
Was that an epiphany?
Did it happen and you said oh,I can do this, or somebody
called you and needed you.
How did that emerge?
Well, I know, near the end of my time at Youth for
Christ, we had a staffconference in Vancouver and we
(09:58):
had a sailboat ride up the riverfrom Vancouver or something, I
don't exactly remember, but Iremember being on the boat with
a bunch of the staff and listen,and as they talked to me, the
loneliness of the staff wasprofound.
And then it started to remindme that when I traveled the
country, I would, you know, Iwas your VP and so I was dealing
(10:18):
with boards and all that sortof stuff across the country and
trying to be an encouragement tostaff.
And uh, the reality was I wouldhave my corporate stuff that I
had to do for YFC.
But then, if I was sitting withthe board chairman in his
office, in his business, I'dtake off the Youth for Christ
hat and say well, how's it goingwith your life?
Well then, that changed thewhole conversation.
(10:39):
And then people would start topour out well, I've got no place
else to say this and thank youfor asking.
And so it became clear thatthere were, for whatever reason,
because I'm not the nicestperson in the world people do
trust me.
They will talk about their lifewith me.
I'm able then to somehowconnect them to other people who
become mutually helpful, andthen ultimately my goal isn't to
(11:10):
always be the one at the centerof that circle, but to try to
find a way to create somecircles of friendships that have
Jesus at the center, and then Ican be occasionally involved
with them, but they can bemutually beneficial to each
other without me always beingpresent.
Brian Stiller (11:17):
So it really emerged, as you listened and
observed, to need yeah, and atwhat point did it occur to you
that you had the capacity toenter into their lives and
provide some kind of spiritualor emotional amelioration?
Norm Allen (11:31):
Well, I think it was mainly, in a sense almost doing
an exegesis of the audience,right?
So you're saying, all right,what are the needs that I have?
So everything?
People always joke and sayNorm's the worst guy in
Touchstone, so if any of thestuff that he's learning can
help him, it'll help anybody,and so that's, that's so.
(11:51):
It was sort of.
Where's my spiritual hunger?
So my spiritual hunger led meto trying to figure out what it
was to be a follower of Jesus.
How do I understand that mywork matters to Jesus?
How do I understand thatvocation and prayer and labor,
they're all somehow integratedspiritually?
And so, as I was grappling withthat stuff, then I started
(12:13):
meeting with people downtown inToronto, in Bay Street, and that
was our primary focus.
And I would just start chattingand would say here's what I'm
thinking of doing.
And you know, blah, blah, blah.
And I remember on our 10thanniversary I got a note from
one of our guys downtown.
He couldn't be at the 10thanniversary party and he said
(12:33):
what an amazing proposition thatyou presented to those of us on
Bay Street hard-nosed businesspeople, one staff, no money and
a dream that we would start tobuild friendships in Christ.
And somehow, 10 years later, alot of good things have happened
, and so it was like it was oneof those things like a bee
shouldn't be able to fly Well,touchstone shouldn't have been
(12:54):
able to fly, but somehow I justI was a doggedly determined,
like people you know certainlyI'm a person of faith and I
think Jesus was going ahead ofme.
Like I had a couple of momentsonce or after we made the
decision to make it to startTouchstone, I went to see Oscar
Peterson at Roy Thompson Hallwith my brother-in-law and he
(13:15):
had his trio playing and it wasfantastic.
And then was he asked the trioto leave and then he suddenly
goes.
I'm going to play a song thatI've never played in public
before, called Ballad, and hestarted to play and it was like
I had this experience that thecreator of this music and the
(13:35):
creator had somehow cometogether with the ringing of
those keys and all I could hearwas Maranatha and it just was
being repeated in my mind come,lord Jesus, lord, jesus, come.
And I felt like that was theimprimatur, that I was supposed
to be downtown, and so I hadthose kinds of moments of
(13:57):
affirmation, but also had lotsof days of discouragement where
there was no money and I didn'tknow how I was going to pay for
parking to get my car out of theparking garage after I had my
appointments with people.
But somehow, by just spending alot of time with people.
We wanted to not create eventswith famous speakers, we wanted
to create a community so thatpeople wanted to be together and
(14:19):
that they became thespokespersons to each other.
It wasn't me the expert onfaith and work, or faith and
prayer and all those kinds ofthings.
I was coming alongside withthem, providing leadership and
vision, but somehow providingfocus.
And so then, as that group got,I got to understand them, the
need to understand prayer.
How do we help each other withour inner journey?
(14:41):
How do we help each otheractually have conversations that
aren't just competitive, thataren't just Bay Street
networking, but are in fact letme listen to you as opposed to
talk to you?
And you know, you and I bothknow that one of the struggles
we have is we're trained to talk, not listen.
And so if our touchstone'swhole thing is we're here to
(15:03):
listen to God and to listen toone another and to respect Jesus
in you, then that's a wholedifferent kind of deal that
we're trying to deal with.
And so it was a huge learningcurve for me, and so I started
out with the whole.
You know, we got to figure outhow to have devotions or
something or how to have aprayer life.
And then we got into faith andwork and the value of work in
(15:27):
the sense of you know,spirituality of vocation, that
if you're a banker and you'reusing the God-given gifts you
have, it's as though you werepainting the Sistine Chapel just
the same as because I can be asvenal preaching a sermon as
they can doing a deal, or we canbe as spiritual on both of
those things.
And so, as we grappled with allof those things and I kept
(15:49):
listening and learning, and thenI was learning myself.
That then led me to the ancientstreams, because I was now
being drawn to.
We've got to find some deeperways to learn to pray and to
have community.
Brian Stiller (16:01):
And that leads to this very important part of
both your own pilgrimage and howyou have been helpful to me and
to us, and it's this we comeout of an evangelical tradition,
a Baptist Pentecostal.
We have lived within thetraditions, the forms of worship
(16:22):
, the music, the way of readingand understanding Scripture.
That's very typical evangelical, of reading and understanding
Scripture that's very typicalevangelical.
I suspect that most of us havethought that the Church began
with us, but you have rightlyshown us how that the ancients,
(16:48):
the various people and theirprayers and ideas and
spirituality over these last2,000 years can greatly enrich
us and isn't simply to beignored as historical.
How did that, as a fount ofspirituality, come into your
life?
Norm Allen (17:04):
Well, part of it is.
I'm basically a curious person,or you might even call me a
spiritual magpie in a way, inthe sense that I had a hunger to
know Jesus wider than whatevermy tradition did.
I was well-grounded inScripture.
We had a wonderful pastor whowe grew up under, lots of
leadership development in thatBaptist church, but I somehow
(17:27):
intuitively knew that there wasmuch more, and sort of
eventually understood over yearsthat all traditions have
something to offer us.
None of them, though, issufficient, and so what I was
growing up in had an element ofthe gospel that was true, and an
(17:47):
understanding of the cross thatwas true, and certainly a very
Jesus-centric thing, which wasvery important to me.
But then you know how theyunderstood Scripture, how they
understood community, how theyunderstood the Christian life.
I realized it was a particularway, and in those years it
didn't matter what the traditionwas.
We all stayed in our own tribe.
So United didn't like Anglicans, and Baptists didn't trust
(18:10):
anybody else.
And you know, the Brethren wereperfect, and the Pentecostals,
you know.
You just didn't know what theywere doing.
But anyway, that was, but itwas.
But you know.
But I had then got exposed to aPentecostal church and
participated in that.
I had went on retreats, as youknow, with Bernie, with oh his
name goes out of my head, butanyway he's the godfather of the
charismatic movement in Torontoand so I was suddenly being
(18:31):
exposed to all this stuff as ahigh school kid and so I knew
there were all kinds of thingsout there that seemed attractive
and certainly seemed legitimate.
So, anyway, as I was gettingolder and you know reading
people like GK Chesterton or TSEliot or Lewis or whoever, and
then that leads to Merton, leadsto other people, you start to
go okay, there's something here,there might be some fresh water
(18:53):
over here behind that rock orwhatever, and so that led me to
sort of contemplative prayer andthinking about spiritual
direction and all of that sortof thing.
So my spiritual direction thinghappened really in the Ignatian
tradition, and so that had awhole lot of richness to it.
What the Ignatian tradition is.
(19:14):
Well, so that's, you know,basically Loyola, the Jesuits,
and so they have a particularapproach to prayer.
Ignatius had this you imagineyourself in a story of Jesus'
life, and then you go throughthe version of the 40-day
retreat, which really groundsyour being and discernment and
all kinds of things.
(19:34):
But I didn't want to become aJesuit, so I didn't want to stay
being just a Baptist or anevangelical and I didn't want to
become a Jesuit Boy.
There was some really goodstuff there, and then my
director put me to a Franciscanwho was just down the road from
where I lived at the time, andso I did some direction with a
Franciscan guy.
Well, now then I ended up inAssisi and then you start to see
(19:56):
, francis had a whole otherapproach and he had a companion,
claire, saint Claire, and thenBonaventure was his sort of his
articulator, of mission guy.
But she was the contemplativeand she took the old-style lexio
that most monastics use, justreading scripture over and over
(20:16):
again, hearing a word and thenmeditating on it.
And then Ignatius has thisreally imagined self-history of
Jesus like.
Well, clare had this idea thatthe only Bible that we need is
the cross, idea that the onlyBible that we need is the cross.
Now, I don't happen to agreewith that, but her passion was
to look at Jesus on the crucifixthat she had in her chapel and
(20:40):
gaze on him, consider him,meditate on him and inevitably
you will imitate him on him.
And inevitably you will imitatehim because you become what you
observe, which was MarshallMcLuhan's observation in
Understanding Media decades ago.
And so I started you know,sorry again.
(21:04):
So like I still use Jesuitstuff, I still use Franciscan
stuff.
I went and spent a week with theBenedictines.
Their whole thing ishospitality.
Went and spent a week with theBenedictines.
Their whole thing ishospitality.
And you know rigid disciplinesbut they work in the fields and
you know they say treat yourshovel with the same respect
that you treat the cup for theEucharist.
So we polished them, both kindof thing.
So I suddenly went wow, there'sa whole lot of this stuff and I
(21:25):
got this sense that this wasall ours and it came to.
I articulated it well, one timeI was in Florence on a trip with
a group and we had been toAssisi and we came back to
Florence and we were staying atthis place and looking out over
the olive groves on the hillsideand there was a woman from
(21:46):
Santa Fe, new Mexico, standingthere and Susan and I were there
having a glass of wine, lookingout at the fields while we're
waiting for the rest of thegroup to get there, and she
turned to me and she said I wishFrancis was one of ours.
And I said no, and ours meaningWell, it turns out she was
(22:07):
Presbyterian.
Okay, I said well, when didFrancis live?
We've just been discussing it?
Well, 1200.
Well, when was the schism?
So is he any more Catholic thanhe is Presbyterian?
No, he's part of yourPresbyterian history, so he is
ours.
So it wasn't me saying, okay,I'm going to adopt something
Catholic, although my mother wasvery suspicious that that was
(22:30):
the case.
I didn't want to become aCatholic, I didn't want to
become a Jesuit, I didn't wantto become a Franciscan, but I
knew there were things aboutlistening to God and listening
to each other and learning aboutvocation and all of those kinds
of things that all these longhistoric traditions had great
wisdom in.
They have all their faults andyou know there's as many crazy
(22:51):
people in a monastery as thereare, you know, in my
neighborhood.
But they also are grapplingwith some things that I think
help us in the marketplace, withthe speed of life and the
overstimulation, that we have tofind ways to create quiet, and
not just external quiet, butinternal quiet.
So how do we create internalstillness?
(23:12):
And that's where then the wholespiritual friendship thing
comes in.
But and then you know, as youknow, I also then spent a fair
bit of time on Celticspirituality of a certain kind,
and Celtic spirituality is Well,you know, it comes out of a
group of monks that establishedthemselves in Ireland.
And then where I spent most ofmy time was Lindisfarne, holy
(23:35):
Island, and there was amonastery originally there that
had been established at theinvitation of one of the local
warlords and somebody had comeacross from Iona and had
established it there.
And then there was a virtualcommunity, the community of
Aidan Hilda, with a friend ofmine, ray Simpson, there.
So I spent a couple of weeks atdifferent times reading and
(23:56):
listening and thinking andparticipating in their community
and it's very Jesus-centric.
But again, it has a greaterunderstanding of the presence of
God in all of creation, thepresence of God and the
significance of God and how youlight a fire, how you, you know,
may God be with you as you putthose logs together and light
(24:18):
the fire that sort of earthiness.
It's got a certain kind ofmirroring to Orthodox.
So the Orthodox have a greatsense of, you know, may God be
with you as your step hits thatrock and all that sort of thing.
So I've got a collection ofOrthodox prayers that could be
Celtic prayers, but they have away of getting at Jesus and
(24:40):
getting at community that isactually really quite health
giving.
But again, I didn't want tobecome.
You know, ray was my friend butI didn't want to become part of
his group.
I learned a whole bunch ofstuff from him and have stolen a
bunch of his prayers.
But it's like all of theseresources are out there and why
wouldn't we learn from them Notuncritically, but not learn from
(25:04):
them, because if they help usprovide some kind of structure
in our spiritual, physical,emotional meanderings to settle
down, to be quiet, to listen toGod, to be able to listen to
each other, then why wouldn't Ilearn from those things?
Our background tends to be morewe're about preaching the gospel
(25:26):
and, yes, we do our devotionsand we pray and all that sort of
stuff, but it's almost like wehave practices that aren't
necessarily shaping our lives.
But these practices, in myopinion, have certainly enriched
me and I believe have helpedshape me and then shape the way
I listen to other people, theway the community of friends has
(25:49):
developed that you've been partof for a lot of years, because
the guys that you and I havebeen part of for those 25 years.
All very different, differenttraditions, different
backgrounds.
Everybody's got more education,theologically, than me.
I have a degree in English, butI've been this sort of seeker
who you know.
As you know, john Vissers hadthis image of me one time being
(26:11):
a guy who sort of goes down atunnel with a candle and says
the Christ candle and says, oh,I think I found something over
here and it's because I'm hungryand needy and hurting I go to
that and then when I find it tobe helpful, I share it with
others.
Brian Stiller (26:32):
So you've been mining 2,000 years of church
history yeah, various people,yeah, and so you bring together
an amalgam of the best that youhave found.
Can you describe where you aretoday and what would be the
essence of yourself-understanding, your walk
(26:52):
with Christ, your imaginingyourself in his presence?
Can you describe that?
Norm Allen (27:00):
Well, it's an interesting time because, as you
know, I retired from the roleof touchstone in June of 24.
And so in a way, I'm I but Istill have the.
So I gave up that, in a sense,professional structure, but I'm
still called to be a follower ofJesus.
(27:20):
I'm still called to be hisfriend and to be friends with
other people.
But I'm waiting to see how thatexpresses itself.
So I just happened to do aretreat last weekend.
It's the first one eight, ninemonths since I retired that I
actually went and used mymaterials and led a group of
people in retreat.
But I've been using my listeningskills and friendship skills at
(27:41):
the food bank and in a gospelchoir and all that sort of thing
.
So I'm basically listening to.
Where does Jesus want to opendoors for me to do something?
It was good for me to do thatretreat because I hadn't done it
in a long time, so I can stilldo that sort of thing, but I
don't need to do it all the timeand I don't need to generate
(28:03):
anything.
So for me it's, I still get upin the morning and feel like
Jesus is inviting me to have aconversation with him, and so
I'm very much as called to be afollower of Jesus, as I was the
day I started Tushnow.
But I don't have thatobligation to initiate, manage
(28:24):
and organize a ministry.
But now maybe be moreresponsive just to opportunities
as they are provided.
Brian Stiller (28:31):
But how is your walk affected by the amalgam
mind through these varioustraditions?
How would you be differenttoday?
What are the kind of things youdo in your own devotional life
that gives you richness?
Norm Allen (28:50):
And it really does vary depending on time and day.
You know, mine is fairly simplemost of the time, in the sense
that I use a journal and I'm anLuddite enough that I have to
use a fountain pen.
Brian Stiller (29:03):
So journaling has been a part of your life.
Norm Allen (29:04):
Central to mine.
So journaling has been a partof your life Central to mine.
So I got up this morning andmade coffee and the sun wasn't
up yet and turned on the fire,and when I had my coffee I got
my journal book out and I lookedat the guide that said here's
the gospel story you're going tolook at this morning.
And so then I just startedwriting.
Well, it's dark and cold, but Ihad a good day yesterday and
(29:29):
I'm going to be meeting withBrian today and doing this
podcast thing, and so I'm justsort of settling here in here
with this amazing mystery thatyou care about everybody, but
somehow I feel like you'relistening to me particularly,
and so and then I take some timeto.
We have mutual friends thathave some issues that they ask
prayer for.
(29:49):
So I was praying for that,praying for Lily as she faces
some challenges, and then wentto the gospel story and just
spent some time listening to it,reading it, and what was Jesus
saying?
What was he looking like?
Does he have sweat on his brow?
How is he feeling with thefriends that are around him?
And then just trying tointeract with him and saying
(30:13):
well, jesus, that's.
I feel like that might besomething that I need to think
about today, and so it's.
But there are other times whenI might use the liturgy of the
hours that the monks use, thatthe monks use, or I might use.
There's Northumbria community,south of the folks at Holy
Island, who have terrific Celticprayer book which has all kinds
(30:33):
of ways of teaching you to prayand to think and to you know
songs to sing and everythingelse.
So it just depends on what Ifeel my needs are.
I think Henry, nowen years ago Ilistened to some tapes tells
you how long ago it was, becauseit was tapes and he did a thing
on the Desert Fathers that wasvery helpful to me and you know
we're in this wordy world andit's the way his language would
(30:55):
go, but it was trying to getaway from the noise.
But he talked about spiritualdisciplines and he said they're
like scaffolding on a building,and that's been very helpful to
me, because once a building hasits own internal structural
integrity, it doesn't needscaffolding anymore, and so as
(31:16):
we get older, the disciplinesthat may have got us to this
point may not be as necessary.
So sometime you and I might saywell, let's go away on retreat
together and rather than usingall our dolls and dishes that we
use to normally do a retreat,we might say why don't we just
sit together?
We already are aware that we'rein the presence of God, and
(31:37):
we've done that.
Last summer we sat for a longtime looking at the lake we
didn't need any externalstructure for that, because the
internal stuff was already thereand we just sat and had
conversations that we knew thatGod was central to, and the pain
or the joy in the center ofboth of our lives at those
(31:57):
moments became part of a naturalconversation, not something
forced in the midst of all ofthis, you have articulated and
demonstrated an idea offriendship which has defined
your work.
Brian Stiller (32:17):
Was this again an epiphany or did it emerge out
of your mining of the?
ancients.
Norm Allen (32:26):
Yeah, I'm not much of an epiphany guy, but I would
say I said we wanted to offerfriendship, but I don't think I
knew what I meant.
So I spent the last 40 yearsfiguring out what it meant to be
friends and studying what afriend is, using John the
(32:46):
Baptist, for instance, as aprototype.
He took joy in somebody else'ssuccess.
Jesus says no greater love hassomeone for, but they lay down
their life for their friend.
Well, if we're really friends,we lay down our agenda for each
other and say let me just listento you.
(33:06):
And so, over time, I began tounderstand that friendship was
something that required work,just like marriage does.
So if you're going to be in agood friendship, then that
requires attention, and itrequires time and mutual support
and all those kinds of things.
So when times are tough, thereare certain people that we know
we can turn to and they'rereally our friends.
(33:28):
We have friendships on allkinds of different levels, but
there are those who are closerthan a brother kind of thing
friends, and that's different.
Now I then have in a senseadded to it by calling it
spiritual friendship, which isin a sense out of the sort of
the Celtic model of anim, caria,caria, soul friend, where your
(33:50):
friendship?
We can have a solid friendship,but our friendship will change
if we take time to dointentional practices that
invite Jesus to be part of theconversation.
We assume Jesus is present, butsometimes we need to be able to
sit together and say, okay,let's just sit in silence and
we'll listen to a psalm andwe'll see what the psalm is
(34:12):
saying to us, with no agenda andno right or wrong answers.
Let's just look at a gospelstory.
Let's see Jesus by the seashorefeeding the fellows after a
long day of fishing, and he'screated a barbecue for them.
Let's imagine that together.
Well, that can change, then,the nature of how we function,
(34:32):
because now we're trying to findways to consciously bring the
presence of Jesus into ourconversation, differently than
we're just really good listenersto each other, Because now
we're somehow saying we'relistening to Jesus and we maybe
even hope that he might saysomething to us, and that he
might say something to us thatwe can reassure each other is
(34:55):
truth, not just fantasy, and oneof the things you know, like in
the traditions that we grew upin, accountability was a big
thing and that was more scrutiny.
Okay, well, you did these threethings wrong.
Well, in my understanding offriendship, and spiritual
friendship particularly, we'rehelping each other here.
What is Jesus really saying tome about this?
(35:15):
Is that the way Jesus wouldtalk to me.
When we beat ourselves up, whenwe all fail I have more failures
than Carter's got little liverpills but Jesus doesn't focus on
that he says, yes, we got toclean that up.
But he'll then say, got to bereminded I love you.
You've got to be reminded thata bad tree doesn't produce good
(35:39):
fruit.
So therefore, you must be agood tree because you know
there's been the odd bit of goodfruit out of your life and we
need to be able to tell eachother those things, rather than
you know.
Hard things we sometimes have tosay to each other and we've had
to do that for each other overthe years but the blessing
things are often harder for us,particularly as men, to say you
(36:02):
know what you are, somebodywhose love has meant the world
to me, or I see these amazingaccomplishments for you, when
you're not feeling secure andyou're not feeling strong, so
that we're not pumping eachother's tires.
We're just speaking truth inlove about who we see God
shaping that person, because sooften our view of ourselves is
(36:25):
so negative that it's you knowit becomes destructive.
Brian Stiller (36:30):
You've talked about the friendship of Jesus.
Now, jesus to be a friend is nobig deal.
You've talked about thefriendship of Jesus.
Now, jesus to be a friend is nobig deal, but there's been
something in there, ourfriendship with him, which has
been new for you and, because ofthat, for us.
Unwrap that a bit.
Norm Allen (36:48):
Yeah, and that goes back a long way.
I've been noodling basicallytwo things Jesus' prayer in John
17, particularly where he saysI'm not praying only for these
guys in the garden, but I'mpraying for those who will
believe in me because of theirmessage that they would be one
Father, as you and I are one,and so that they would then know
(37:08):
that you love them as much asyou love me.
And then, certainly, jesus'discussion in the upper room in
John 15, where he says I nolonger call you servants, I call
you friends, is preceded by himsaying greater love has no one,
that they lay down their lifefor their friends, and so he
laid down his life for us, bydefinition, then his friends,
(37:32):
and so it's not some sort ofsappy friendship thing.
This is highly demandingbecause if I want to listen to
Jesus as my friend, or I want tobe a friend of Jesus who
represents him, then I have tosee the cross.
I have to see the scars when heserves me.
If I imagine that I'm by theseashore receiving the fish and
(37:55):
the bread that morning, I seethe scars in his hands.
So I know that, as he said toPeter, there's going to come a
time when somebody's going tolead you around where you don't
want to go, like moving intosuffering, self-denial,
self-control, all of those kindsof things, none of which you
know, are particularly naturalto me.
Those are the things that afriendship with Jesus draws us
(38:17):
to, because then that enables usto then be mutually submissive
to each other in a healthy way.
We can actually be humblebefore each other and care for
each other.
One of my friends says it's notJesus, my girlfriend, kind of
stuff.
This is serious business,because every time you listen to
(38:40):
Jesus speak, you know I wantyour joy to be full.
Oh well, what happened to thoseguys that he said that to Jesus
prayed tears in the garden.
So if you want to pray, it'snot the yellow brick road, it
may take you to the cross, itmay take you to some form of
cross, right.
And so that's where, if we'reserious about this engagement
(39:02):
with Jesus and him dignifying usenough to say I'd like to call
you my friend, then it's serious, costly business, and that's
why you know it's been importantto me, why it's been important
to me, norm.
Brian Stiller (39:15):
I want to come back in a moment to what you
might suggest for people whoaspire for something deeper, so
something a little richer towhat they've had up to now.
Let me just do a couple ofthings.
This is a picture.
This is one of Norm's retreatguides.
Now this is available onTouchstone website.
(39:37):
Yeah, so just Touchstone.
ca, touchstone.
ca, and you'll find in here avariety of things, and we have
used this, and, of course, youhave a number of these, right,
but you have used this in whatway?
Just give me a bit descriptionof how this works.
Norm Allen (39:53):
Well, essentially it's a guidebook for our time
together, because I don't, likeyou know, I animate the retreat
or I lead the retreat, but Idon't like it to be my voice all
the time.
So it's got.
Here are things to consider,here are ways to pray, here are
some passages of scripture toconsider.
Here's a collection of prayersthat you can use as you try to
get into prayer.
(40:14):
Here's a collection of prayersthat you can use as you try to
get into prayer.
And then we've got what we callthe Celtic Meal of Jesus, which
is a liturgy that's modeled onthe Iona community's liturgy for
when we break bread together.
So it's really designed tofacilitate conversation amongst
the people who are there, and oruse it on your own for prayer
guidance.
Brian Stiller (40:33):
And there's a whole bunch of other stuff on
the website that you knowsuggestions for prayer,
collections of prayer, podcastsand that sort of thing, the one
thing that I found to be reallyhelpful in the retreat and
nobody has ever, in myexperience, dared to do this
Norm would take and ask us totake a text, and usually in his
(40:54):
prayer guides there's a varietyof Bible passages all from the
Gospels, as I recall and hewould take one of those and go
away for 90 minutes.
Now, for a type A highlygoal-oriented person, 90 minutes
being alone up by a lakelooking at a text was a bit of a
self-discipline Right, but youforced us into it.
Norm Allen (41:18):
But you found it.
Ultimately, the time actuallywent.
Brian Stiller (41:21):
Oh yeah, but what you did, you helped us, and I
guess this is more of anIgnatius principle.
You helped us get into the textand what I found to be of great
value is you encouraged us toimagine yourself as a member or
an observer in the text andlisten and watch, to see what
(41:43):
you hear, and see from thatpoint of view, and I found that
often texts would just comealive in ways that I'd never
known.
So there's some very important.
You can access this material.
Norm Allen (41:55):
Touchstone.
ca
Brian Stiller (41:56):
Yeah, on friendship, which is, I think,
has been key to Norm's ministryspiritual friendship.
This is a book that you didthat defines what you mean by
friendship, right, andfriendship is more than being
friendly.
Norm Allen (42:10):
Right, because I'm often not that friendly.
Exactly.
Brian Stiller (42:14):
And the latest ones that you did, which was
kind of brought to the end ofTouchstone Pop the Corks and
Pass the Butter Tarts.
I don't think I've ever seen abook with that title.
Norm Allen (42:26):
Right.
So that's essentiallyreflections along the lines of
what we've been talking about 40years of spiritual friendship,
and that was kind of my thankyou note to our community.
And there's a few people whoalso wrote in response to
different chapters.
Brian Stiller (42:41):
Norm.
I'm hearing from so many peopleand so this is not just
occasional, but I see a bit of apattern.
People of my own evangelicalPentecostal community who have a
hunger for something that'sricher in their walk, deeper in
their understanding of Christand a little less doctrinal or
(43:01):
traditional.
And some have gone into theOrthodox Church.
Many of my Pentecostal friendshave become Anglican because
they can have the Eucharisticexperience, right experience.
So for those that are in thatsearch some counsel on what to
(43:21):
do, what not to do where to go,how to think, what to read.
Norm Allen (43:30):
Yeah, I'm always hesitant, as you know, to offer
that kind of counsel because myjourney has been not unlike many
of them that you described, andso becoming part of the United
Church in Orangeville when wemoved there 50 years ago was one
of the best church experienceswe had.
And then it blew up, so I nowattend an Anglican church.
I'm a member of an Anglicanchurch in Orangeville, but it's
(43:53):
more what is your own internalspiritual journey.
So one of the things I learnedearly on was that I could
participate in the church and Icould offer leadership in the
church and I can, you know, beon committees and do whatever,
but the church is never actuallygoing to be able to really help
me with my own leadership andspiritual needs.
So I had to figure out a way tofigure that out myself, and so
(44:16):
I did eventually start, you know, collecting some friends who
helped me with that sort ofthing, and I think that's part
of it's taking responsibilityfor your own life.
I think I hear people oftensaying, well, it's not deep
enough and it's not this, and sopeople are leaving for critical
reasons.
I think if you're moving somedirection, see if it's helping
you see Jesus more.
(44:37):
So for me that's a bit of alitmus test.
For me it is because if all itis is okay, now I've found a
happier you know, instead ofhappy clappy music, I've now got
, you know, I've now got anorgan and a choir.
That's great, but Jesus is inboth of those places and if it's
helping your soul, that's great.
And are you doing it assomething that's communal and
(45:00):
it's part of relationalengagement, or is it just
something that's Because when Ifirst started going to the
Anglican Church, coming out ofan unhappy situation, a bit of a
church conflict, I was in asense doing the liturgy,
standing and kneeling, but itwas really a private spiritual
activity for probably the firstyear and it only became more
communal later.
But I think, part of what, ifyou've got a spiritual hunger
(45:23):
and maybe you've got somebodyelse who shares that, well then
talk about it with each otherand there are all kinds of
resources.
I don't know what the youngergeneration does today because
everybody's listening to thingsdifferently.
I read books, but people arenow listening to podcasts and
doing all that sort of thing.
But I would say, if you canfind ways to help you develop
(45:45):
some inner quiet not just soyou're quiet, not just sort of a
yoga meditation thing, butsomething that makes you quiet
enough to somehow hear Jesusthen those are the kinds of
processes that we want, becauseright now we're so bombarded
with sensate activity whetherit's, you know, screens and
devices or whatever it is thatit's really hard to start to
(46:08):
just settle in and say, okay,I'm just going to see if I can
see Jesus in the Gospels.
And there are all kinds oftools where you can find that.
Some of them get referred to onmy website.
But I think each generation hasto find their own way, and they
have to find their own way tocreate the friendships with one
another.
So my grandkids, who areuniversity age, and my kids, who
(46:29):
are, you know, 50-ish, thosetwo generations do it completely
differently from each other andcertainly differently from me,
and so it's finding the waysthat.
And yet the need for friendshipin all of those generations is
the same, and certainlyfriendship with God.
And so how one does that, Ithink, is taking responsibility
(46:50):
for one's life and takinginitiative to find the resources
, because years ago I read abook on spiritual direction that
was very helpful and one of thepoints the guy made was God
knows that you have a desire tohave a spiritual director or to
have some kind of differentdirection in your spiritual life
.
Don't force it.
(47:12):
Explore, and then it willeventually be provided.
And that's been true in my lifeover and over and over again.
I have a hunger and then somethread takes me to somebody and
I read that or I have aconversation about it, and then
somehow Jesus is in that andthen I'm able to share it with
(47:34):
other people out of whateverenrichment I have received in my
own life.
Brian Stiller (47:39):
Thanks, Norm, for being part of Evangelical 360
today.
Norm Allen (47:42):
Thank you for having me.
It's been fun.
Brian Stiller (47:44):
It has.
Thank you, norm, for joining metoday and for helping us see the
possibilities of a greater anda richer walk in faith.
Thank you for being a part ofthe podcast.
Be sure to share this episode.
Use hashtag Evangelical360, andplease subscribe on YouTube If
(48:06):
you'd like to learn more abouttoday's guest.
Just check the show notes forlinks and info and if you
haven't already received my freee-book and newsletter just go
to brianstillercom.
(48:26):
Thank you, until next time.
Don't miss the next interview.
Be sure to subscribe toEvangelical 360 on YouTube.
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