August 1, 2025 • 40 mins
Father Ronald Rolheiser, renowned Catholic theologian and best-selling author, offers profound insights into Christian spirituality that transcend denominational boundaries. When asked to define spirituality, Rolheiser provides both practical and theoretical frameworks: "Spirituality is the game, not just the rulebook," he explains, describing it simply as "what we do with our spirit" – how we channel the deep longing within us.
A fascinating distinction emerges between "Jesus" and "Christ" – not as first and last names, but as complementary spiritual realities. "We need to learn from evangelicals about Jesus, and evangelicals need to learn from mainline churches about Christ," Rolheiser suggests. This perspective illuminates how evangelicals excel at fostering intimate personal relationships with Jesus while Catholics often emphasize the ongoing mystical reality of Christ's presence through the church community.
The conversation explores Rolheiser's "four pillars of spiritual life" – personal morality and charity, social justice, community participation, and having a "mellow heart." This final pillar proves particularly thought-provoking, as Rolheiser connects it to the elder brother in the prodigal son parable who does everything "right" but remains too bitter to join the celebration. "You can be doing everything right and it can still all be wrong," he cautions.
When discussing spiritual disciplines, Rolheiser borrows wisdom from Dietrich Bonhoeffer about marriage: "Today you're in love and think your love will sustain your marriage, but it won't. Your marriage can sustain your love." Similarly, spiritual rituals and habits carry us through periods when emotions fade. This reframes potentially "legalistic" practices as faithful persistence – showing up regardless of feelings.
Perhaps most encouraging is Rolheiser's conviction that the gulf between Catholics and evangelicals is "much less than we imagine" – merely "500 years of misunderstanding." He shares Pope Francis's surprising statement: "I have no interest in converting evangelicals," reflecting a mutual respect that allows traditions to learn from each other without demanding conversion. This conversation offers a powerful vision for how different Christian traditions can enrich one another while maintaining their distinctive voices.
You can learn more from Ronald Rolheiser through his website and books and you can find him on Facebook.
And don't forget to share this episode using hashtag #Evangelical360 and join the conversation online!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brian Stiller (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm your host, brian Stiller,and I'm pleased to share with
you another conversation I havewith leaders, changemakers and
influencers those impactingChristian life around the world.
We'd love for you to be a partof the podcast by sharing this
episode.
Use hashtag Evangelical360 andjoin the conversation on YouTube
(00:34):
.
My guest today is Father RonaldRuhlheiser, a renowned Catholic
priest, writer, speaker andtheologian.
As a member of the MissionaryOblates of Mary Immaculate,
father Rolheiser has spentdecades helping people navigate
the deep longings of the soul.
His best-selling books,including the Holy Longing, the
(00:56):
Search for ChristianSpirituality in Sacred Fire, a
Vision for a Deeper Human andChristian Mat, christian
maturity, have resonated withChristians across traditions.
Today, we'll discuss thegrowing hunger for spirituality
in our time and whatevangelicals can learn from our
Catholic siblings and theirspiritual traditions.
Ron Rollheiser, thank you forjoining us today on Evangelical
(01:25):
360.
Ronald Rolheiser (01:27):
Thank you for having me, Brian Thanks.
Brian Stiller (01:29):
Ron, you have become a global voice for
understanding spirituality, thatubiquitous phrase that seems to
sweep across so many ideas andmovements and voices.
But as we begin today, maybe webest start with give me a
(01:51):
definition of Christianspirituality.
Ronald Rolheiser (01:54):
Okay, brian, I can give you a theoretical
definition.
I'm going to give you apractical one first.
You know, okay, discipleship.
If you look at discipleship ofJesus, like when you look at all
the theology we have, it's likethe rules for a game.
I'm a systematic theologian.
(02:15):
It tells you how you dotheology, but spirituality is
the game.
It's almost like soccer.
You have rules but the game isplaced by the rules.
Spirituality is the game.
That's a practical definition,theoretically, the way I define
it in the Holy Longing.
It's what we do with our spirit.
(02:35):
We all have a spirituality.
It doesn't have to be a churchyspirituality, but whatever you
do with all the longing andstuff inside of you, that is
your spirituality.
And as you saw in the book, ifyou saw the book Holy Longing, I
contrast three people.
(02:55):
Like somebody like MotherTeresa she's a spiritual figure,
you know.
And you look at somebody likeJanice Joplin, the rock star.
We don't look at her as aspiritual figure, but that was
her spirituality whicheventually actually killed her.
Or then I contrast somebodylike Princess Diana, who's half
Mother Teresa, half rock star.
That's her spirituality.
Spirituality isn't first of allsomething you do in church,
(03:19):
it's the way you live out yoursoul, the fire inside of you
live out your soul, the fireinside of you.
Brian Stiller (03:29):
Ron your book the Holy Longing the Search for a
Christian Spirituality.
That book received anunprecedented response from
people around the world.
Were you surprised by that kindof response?
Ronald Rolheiser (03:41):
Yes, I was.
You know, especially.
You know publishing religiously, you know being.
You know publishing religiously.
You know, if you write a bookand you get a religious
publisher, if you sell 10 or20,000, that's a success.
This thing went viral.
I mean, I think it's up toabout 800,000 copies, you know.
So it was a surprise, but ithit a vein.
(04:02):
It just hit the right veinsurprised, but it hit a vein.
Brian Stiller (04:08):
It just hit the right vein.
Ron, you and I are boys of thesame generation, born and raised
in the Western Canadianprovince of Saskatchewan.
Our lives kind of parallel.
You went into Catholic ministryand I went into Protestant
ministry, but your life hascentered around helping people
understand what thatspirituality is about.
What do you think is abroad, inour culture that breeds this
(04:31):
interest in people's lives forsomething that is interior,
that's deeper, that's moreprofound, that's more satisfying
?
What is what's creating that inyour experience?
Ronald Rolheiser (04:48):
A double thing , brian.
One of them is them is, firstof all, it's inside of us.
Remember saint augustine'sfamous line where saint
augustine said you've made ourhearts for yourself, lord our
hearts and the rest of them,they rest in you.
So everybody's going to be, youknow.
But see, spirituality, um,today, a lot of people you've
heard this expression they sayI'm spiritual but not religious.
(05:09):
So our churches tend tostruggle, um, and that that's
the downside.
The upside is, people saythey're still going to try to
learn spirituality.
That's what is a big interest.
The numbers in our churches aredropping, but spirituality
isn't dropping, you know.
(05:29):
So it's a compensation, partlyhealthy and partly not healthy,
you know, in terms of you'veheard that expression many times
I'm spiritual but not religious, which means I can do
spirituality, I can't do achurch, which means I can do
spirituality I can't do a church.
Brian Stiller (05:54):
Is the church sensing that need and responding
to it in ways that you find aresatisfying or meaningful to
people in their search forsomething deeper and more
fulfilling?
Ronald Rolheiser (06:00):
Yes and no, brian, I tell you.
You know, today a church is awide definition.
Take your own congregation, thedenomination.
Some people yes, some peopleare moving the opposite
direction.
You know that, instead of going, they're trying to pull back
and re-entrench more, and that'sin all of the churches.
There's a deep split in thechurches, some of which are
(06:23):
trying to move and incorporateinto spirituality.
Others are saying we've got topull back, we've got to
re-entrench, we've got to getmore fundamentalistic about this
.
It's true in Catholicism, I'msure it's true in your
denomination.
Brian Stiller (06:38):
Ron, my father was a Pentecostal pastor in
Saskatchewan.
Pastor in Saskatchewan and withmy buddies who were Catholic in
elementary and high school anduniversity, it seemed to me that
my spirituality was more aliveand vibrant and leading to
self-discovery beyond what I sawin their lives.
(07:01):
And yet here I'm coming back toyou as a Pentecostal
evangelical, asking you, aCatholic, about spirituality.
It seems to be an interestingprogress.
So I'm wondering what can Ilearn from you as a Catholic
about spirituality, when itseems that my life was built
(07:21):
around spirituality as its verycrux, as its very essence of
what we believed Very goodquestion.
Ronald Rolheiser (07:29):
I want to venture something there.
You know we have differentstrengths.
So when you're saying when youwere a child, you know your
faith in Jesus seemed much morealive than the Catholics, it
doesn't surprise me at all.
See, right now, you know, I'mteaching a doctoral program here
we have a lot of evangelicalstudents, a lot of Roman
(07:49):
Catholics and so on, and I'mnoticing a difference.
The strength of evangelicals isprecisely their aliveness,
their kind of that intimacy withJesus and so on, which we need
to learn from.
You know, for instance, yourcongregations tend to be much
younger.
You can get people on fire.
(08:11):
You know Roman Catholicism, themainline Protestantism, we
struggle with that.
Our strength is more thesustaining.
So I'll give you an example.
We have a number of evangelicalministers who come here to do
our doctoral program and theycome for that reason.
We have a young man.
He started 26 churches.
He met his wife in Africa.
He said I needed help insustaining.
(08:34):
I know how to start it.
I know how to get people fired.
You know he came to want tolearn about dark nights of the
soul and different things.
How do you sustain this over 40or 50 years?
And that's where we need tolearn from each other.
I'm learning a lot fromevangelicals in terms of even
giving an expression we use theword.
(08:56):
I want to put something verysimple.
We need to learn from theevangelicals about Jesus, and
evangelicals need to learn fromthe main churches about Christ.
That's not just Jesus' secondname, see.
In evangelicalism, the intimacy, one-to-one relationship with
Jesus is so central, and that'sJohn's gospel, john's entire
gospel is there are no rules.
(09:17):
You need to be one-to-oneintimacy with Jesus.
You know, see, but Christ isn'tJesus' second name, it's Jesus,
the Christ.
You know, see.
So you're not part of the bodyof Jesus, you're part of the
body of Christ, which is thecorporate thing, which brings in
many other things.
You know and see, that's one ofour strengths, but one of our
(09:40):
weaknesses.
We're not enough about Jesus.
One of our weaknesses we're notenough about Jesus that in
Catholicism or mainline religion, sometimes Jesus becomes a
philosophy.
He becomes an ethics, aphilosophy of ethics, but
doesn't become a person.
See, jesus is a person that yourelate to.
You know, one to one.
(10:02):
Jesus wants the friendship.
Jesus wants you to be his lover.
You know one-to-one Jesus wantsthe friendship.
Jesus wants you to be his lover.
You know, see, and that's beenweaker in the mainline churches
and much stronger inPentecostalism, but just the
evangelical tradition.
You know, I'm convinced we needto learn from each other.
Brian Stiller (10:23):
Ron, I love this quote in your book the Holy
Longing.
Let me just quote it.
You say the central mysterywithin all of Christianity,
undergirding everything else, isthe mystery of the incarnation.
Unfortunately, it is also themystery that is the most
misunderstood or, moreaccurately, to coin a phrase,
(10:44):
under under understood.
It is not so much that wemisunderstand what the
incarnation means, it is morethat we grasp only the smallest
tip of a great iceberg.
We miss its meaning by notseeing its immensity.
You're saying, then, that ourspirituality is really our walk
with Christ.
Ronald Rolheiser (11:05):
Yeah for a Christian, yes, but walk with
Christ.
You know, I'm getting more asI'm getting older.
In writing, I'm getting verycautious how I use the words,
when I use Jesus, when I useChrist, when I use Jesus Christ.
You know, see, jesus is aperson where we link to Jesus is
a friend, and so on, and linkto Jesus is a friend and so on,
(11:27):
and he's also died for us and soon.
But Christ is a mystery.
The incarnation, which didn'tstop, see, when I talk about
it's under understood.
I think the common sense thingis that when Jesus ascended into
heaven 40 years after he leftthe planet, but see, jesus did,
(11:49):
but Christ didn't Like.
St Paul says we are the body ofChrist on earth.
So he doesn't say we're like abody, or he doesn't say we
replaced Jesus, we're Christ'sbody, see, and that goes on.
Like you're still giving fleshto Christ, i're still giving
flesh to Christ.
I'm still giving flesh toChrist, you know and see, and
(12:11):
that, as you can see, the holylonging has immense implications
, you know.
So, for instance, one of theexamples I give in there so, for
instance, if you forgivesomebody, you're part of the
body of Christ, they're forgiven, they're touching the body of
Christ.
I say that to parents.
A lot of people today theirkids don't go to church.
(12:32):
They'll tell me what can I dowith my kids?
Keep loving them, keep attachedto them.
They can't be lost.
You're the body of Christ,they're connected to you,
they're connected to Christ.
Body of Christ.
They're connected to you,they're connected to Christ.
Remember that powerful quote inScripture where the woman of
the hemorrhage says if I justsneak up and touch this garment,
I'll be healed.
(12:52):
She touches, she's healed.
You're that garment, you'repart of that garment.
So that Jesus gave us immensepower.
See everything Jesus leftbehind for us to do.
See, that's part of the mysteryof Christ.
It's interesting.
(13:14):
I got a lot of pushback on thechapter.
I'll give you an example.
Some man wrote.
He says how can you say thatyou can forgive sins?
Only Christ can forgive sins.
Well, he's answering his ownquestion.
You are the body of Christ.
You know he's right.
Only Christ can forgive sins.
But you are part of the body ofChrist.
(13:34):
So is every believer, and that,first of all, is immensely
consoling.
It gives you immense power.
You know, do you have kids?
You can say my habit includesthem.
Brian Stiller (13:49):
They're connected to you, they're connected to
the body of Christ, whetherthey're going to church or not
your line that Christ is not thesecond name of Jesus is a great
line, but it's immenselyprofound.
What is Christ, what does itmean, and how does Christ we,
(14:11):
the body, operate on this planet?
What does that look like?
Ronald Rolheiser (14:16):
Let me start with.
It's not his second name, see,they didn't have second names.
He's Jesus, the son of Joseph,so is Jesus actually the Christ?
He's Jesus the son of Joseph,so is Jesus actually the Christ?
Christos, which means Christ,means the anointed one of God,
that place on earth where Godtakes flesh.
See, jesus was that place onearth where God has concrete
flesh on earth.
(14:37):
But see, jesus ascended intoheaven 40 days after Easter.
But the body of Christ is stillhere.
It's here in all Christianbelievers, you know, and that's
Pauline, we are the body ofChrist, see, so you're still
giving flesh to the mystery ofChrist.
Okay, and so, just to use thoseimages, the woman in Scripture
(15:02):
sneaks up and touch Christ'sgarment.
She's healed.
People touch you, they'rehealed.
Your table is a church, yourfamily is a monastery.
It's a mystery which isincredible.
I gave you an example of a manwho wrote to me and says I can't
believe it.
Only Christ can forgive sins.
I wrote back and said well, youare the body of Christ.
(15:24):
But some woman wrote and saidwell, you are the body of Christ
.
But some woman wrote me andsaid you know, I have seven
children and none of them go tochurch.
And if what you said is true,it's too good to be true.
I said it's a wonderfuldefinition of the incarnation.
It's too good to be true.
That's why we sing Christmasand Easter hymns.
Remember, jesus says in John'sGospel I'm giving you all the
(15:47):
power I have.
I'm giving to you.
You know I'm leaving it withyou.
So Jesus left us.
Christ didn't.
Brian Stiller (15:56):
And that Christ reality is borne out by the
actual presence of the Spiritwho lives in our very
personality and body.
Is that the linkage you wouldmake?
Ronald Rolheiser (16:12):
Yeah, the Spirit.
But basically, when you werebaptized, you become part of the
body of Christ and so that whenyou love somebody, it's not
just you, it's Christ that'sloving this person.
See that in that sense you areincarnating and incorporating
God's presence and love.
When you forgive somebody, Godis forgiving that person.
(16:34):
Like I said, it soundsincredible, it is because the
Christian message is incredible,sounds incredible.
Brian Stiller (16:43):
It is because the Christian message is incredible
.
I was raised in the Pentecostalworld.
That really was a bit of a dooropener to our understanding of
the Spirit a hundred years ago,a new understanding, a fresh
understanding, if you like, ofthe Spirit within the church,
and so I have lived with thatunderstanding of the Spirit in
(17:04):
me, which is Christ, the kingdom, alive in me.
But there is something aboutthe ancient forms of
spirituality that you talk about, especially when you talk about
the four pillars of spirituallife.
List those for me and give me alittle bit of an exegesis of
what you mean about the fourpillars of spiritual life.
List those for me and give me alittle bit of an exegesis of
(17:25):
what you mean by those fourpillars.
The second one surprised me asa pillar.
But just list those and tell mea bit about them.
Ronald Rolheiser (17:35):
First of all, brian, today that's a great
tension inside of our churchesand among our churches about.
You know what's important,what's the gospel?
But what I say, that Jesusleaves us for non-negotiables,
okay.
So the first one is you have tobe a person of private morality
and private charity.
(17:55):
If you're not a charitableperson, you're not keeping the
commandments.
You can't pretend you're adisciple of Jesus.
You're not keeping thecommandments.
You can't pretend you're adisciple of Jesus.
Remember Jesus, if anybodyloves me, they'll keep my word
and that one we've alwaysemphasized you're a church going
Christian.
But then the second one is thequestion of justice, and that's
(18:16):
pretty clear.
I was in a class last night.
To me one of the scariest textsin all of the Scripture is
Matthew 25.
Whatsoever you do text that'sraw Jesus says you know you're
going to be judged.
Do you feed the hungry, givedrink to the thirsty, clothe the
naked, and so on.
See, that often gets left off.
(18:36):
For instance, I can be a verynice man and personally
charitable and not care aboutthe poor.
Vice versa, I can care aboutthe poor and not be a very nice
man.
You've got to be both, you know, see.
Then the third thing is andthat's the important thing is
the question of community.
You could say church, but youknow, christianity is unique in
(18:57):
this way.
With Judaism too, we are acommunitarian religion, which
means Christianity is somethingyou do with other people.
You don't do Christianity alone.
So you can be a Hindu alone, aMuslim alone, a Taoist alone.
You don't have to go to temple,you can't.
But when people say I'mspiritual but not religious, you
(19:20):
know, see, christianity it'ssomething you do with other
people.
We're called to come as a group.
You know, the famous Frenchphilosopher, charles Piguet,
said when you die, you're goingto come in front of Jesus and
he's going to ask you thisquestion where are the others?
Why are you here alone, see?
That's the whole business ofchurch, you know, or some kind
(19:43):
of community.
And then there's still a fourthone, which a lot of people have
.
With all of this, you also haveto have a mellow heart.
See, I can be doing everythingright and they can still all be
wrong.
And we have an example of thatin Scripture.
That's the older brother of theprodigal son.
He's doing everything right andhe's too angry to go into the
(20:04):
house.
You know the story, the olderbrother.
See, you have to do all this.
But you have to have a mellowheart and sometimes that's the
aspect of Jesus we don'temphasize.
You know, jesus shocked andscandalized people with his
capacity to enjoy life.
Jesus shocked people.
(20:26):
He never apologized forenjoying life, but there has to
be a mellowness.
So that's such a powerfulexample in Scripture of the
older brother, the prodigal son.
Remember.
He tells his father I've stayedhome, I've never done the sins,
I've done all the work, butnotice, he can't go to the house
.
The house is heaven, he is toobitter to go into his father's
(20:49):
house, not because he's doneanything wrong, but because
there's anger, you know.
And then suddenly I got thatfrom Gutierrez, the father of
liberation theology.
Remember as a young studentreading this and being kind of
shocked.
So he says, you know, he saidif you're living in North
America and you feel bad aboutthe poor, you feel guilty that
(21:12):
you're.
He said you want to come andhelp us.
He said don't come.
He said don't come.
He said the third world hasmany problems, without importing
your unhappiness, he says he.
He said if you're a person'sgrateful, you're grateful.
What god said come and livewith us, said you have to have a
mellow heart.
Um, see, and that's a challenge, both for people who are, you
(21:33):
know, proselytizing, you know,just, sometimes we're too angry,
we're too bitter, or people insocial justice in your face, and
so on.
Um, the cause is right, but theenergy is all wrong, you know,
see.
So you have to have these threethings, you know private
morality, private relationshipto jesus, concern for the poor,
(21:56):
some kind of community, but alsosome mellowness, some some
softness of heart that we're nota bitter, angry person.
Brian Stiller (22:05):
Ron, given the two traditions that we represent
Catholic, Protestant, Catholic,Evangelical our theology was
very much rooted in Godmanifesting himself through
Jesus, and his salvation becomesmine by the acceptance.
(22:28):
So, from an evangelical pointof view, I'm born again by the
Spirit of Christ, as I receiveChrist into my life, and my life
then is lived out in obedienceto what the Scriptures say.
In obedience to what thescriptures say.
(22:48):
But there's an element ofspirituality that you bring
that's much more mysterious thanthe more self-evident doctrines
and ways of living that I wouldhave learned in my own youth
and would be typicallyevangelical in its exposition
youth and would be typicallyevangelical in its exposition.
But you bring a certain mysteryof God into my walk that's
(23:08):
different to what I'veexperienced, to what I
understand.
Does that make any sense to youas you look at the difference
between our two traditions?
Ronald Rolheiser (23:17):
Yes, let me take a risk.
Those are good questions.
See, you know Luther's thingabout sola scriptura, only
scripture.
Okay, there's something verygood about that, but the problem
is it can also be too lean adiet.
See, I'll use an image.
(23:38):
I believe that Luther andCalvin and Swingley, they were
so afraid of contaminants.
You know, like the indulgencesand all this stuff, that the
danger is you put yourself on adiet with only antiseptics.
You know You're never going todie of food poisoning, but
sometimes, see, so you know whatSome of the tradition we have.
You know, I'll teach it over thestory.
(23:59):
You know the young man who camehere, evangelical, six, seven
years ago, actually teaches atour faculty now.
You know him and his wife hadstarted 26 churches in Africa
and he kind of burned out, verysincere, and he said but I
needed trouble sustaining.
So he came, but he wanted tostudy it.
(24:22):
He wanted to study dark nights,mysticism, like what happens
when you know God seems todisappear in your life.
And how do you sustain the longhaul?
Well, first he found themystics, but then he found it in
Scripture.
You know, it's not like themystics.
So then he wrote his thesis onwilderness in Scripture and so
on.
See those themes, it's not likethe mystics invented them.
(24:43):
They are in Scripture butthey're easy to miss.
You know themes like wildernessand the silence of God and so
on.
They're there, but sometimes weneed each other's traditions to
help tease them out.
You know and see Christianitywe have 2,000 years of history,
(25:06):
not all of it good, but a lot ofit good.
But you know, there's some deepwells we call them in our
spiritual life.
There's some deep wells to goin and study.
You know of Christian mysticism, and also not just Roman
Catholics, protestants andEvangelicals, you know.
But it's interesting Usuallywhen you find something in a and
evangelicals.
You know, but it's interestingUsually when you find something
in a great mystic, you'll alsofind it in Scripture.
(25:26):
Like I teach courses on John ofthe Cross and the Dark Knight.
Where is that in Scripture?
Well, it's there in wilderness.
It's there in desert themes.
It's there in Jesus on thecross crying out why have you
forsaken me?
It's there in Good Friday, youknow.
See.
So those themes, it's not likethey're not in scripture, it's
in scripture.
(25:47):
But sometimes we need otherhelp to tease that out.
You know, brian, I'll tell youit's an interesting story.
We started a PhD program herein spirituality 17 years ago.
Brian Stiller (26:00):
Well, Ron, let me just jump in there for our
viewers.
Just give me a thumbnail sketchof where you are and what you
do and the nature of your school.
Ronald Rolheiser (26:10):
I'm at the Aubrey School of Theology in San
Antonio, texas, which is aRoman Catholic seminary school.
We teach seminarians.
We probably have 125seminarians that we teach here,
but they're not half of ourstudents.
But we have different programs,masters.
But we have two doctoralprograms and one of them is you
(26:30):
can do a doctorate inspirituality, and we're only one
of two schools in North Americathe other one's in Toronto that
is licensed by the ATS to do adoctorate in spirituality.
But at any given time ourstudents are one-third Roman,
one-third Protestant, one-thirdevangelical.
And this is the story I want totell you In 17 years we've
(26:55):
never had a single conversion.
We've never had anybody convertfrom one denomination to another
, and we're happy about that.
We've never had anybody convertfrom one denomination to
another, and we're happy aboutthat.
But everybody has left moreappreciative of their own
denomination and moreappreciative of every other
denomination.
See, that's.
You know, every evangelical hasleft as an evangelical.
Every Protestant has left as aProtestant, more appreciative of
(27:19):
your own tradition but at thesame time much more appreciative
of all the other traditions.
Because you know, spiritualityis your common language.
You know, like, see,ecclesiology and theology, we're
going to meet our differences,spirituality and discipleship.
You don't.
What Jesus asks, it's the samefor you, it's the same for me,
(27:41):
it's the same for everybody.
And that spirituality, it's thesame for you, it's the same for
me, it's the same for everybody.
Brian Stiller (27:47):
And that spirituality, it's the common
language we have, and I believeit's where we're going to come
together, ron.
Let's move it now to what can aperson do to deepen their walk
with the Lord.
Lord, out of your Catholicexperience, what can you
contribute to us in how I deepenmy walk, my life with Christ,
(28:16):
strengthen my walk, find abetter understanding of the
Christ who is in me and whosebody is.
Ronald Rolheiser (28:20):
Christ here in this world.
Let me suggest something there,and I'm going to begin with.
Incidentally, tomorrow's theanniversary of the death of
Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer was aLutheran priest and when he
would marry a couple, perform amarriage, this was his homily.
He'd always tell the coupletoday you're in love, you're
very much in love, and you thinkyour love will sustain your
(28:43):
marriage, but it won't.
But your marriage can sustainyour love.
Now, what he's saying is this wewon't sustain our faith through
good feelings.
Feelings come and go.
For instance, if you're onlygoing to pray when you feel like
it, you're not going to prayvery often, see.
So we sustain and deepen ourprayer through habit, through
(29:03):
rituals.
You know.
So what I advise.
If I'm a spiritual director setyourself some spiritual
disciplines.
You know whether you knowyou're going to do some reading,
you're going to do somescripture, you're going to do
certain prayers and so on, orsome prayer method, but you're
going to do it.
Or some prayer method, butyou're going to do it whether
you feel like it or not.
You know, see all the greatprayers they say the answer to
(29:28):
the deep thing of all prayers isjust to show up.
It doesn't matter whether youfeel like it or not, just to be
there.
See, and I think too often wetry to sustain ourselves through
our energy and our goodfeelings, but you won't.
You know, I use an expressionwhich I got from Annie Lamott.
(29:49):
She says that, like church,it's like visiting your
grandmother.
You don't do it because itmeans something to you, it means
something to your grandmother.
You go and you see Jesus.
Like people say, I don't go tochurch.
To church doesn't mean anythingto me.
You know well.
It doesn't have to meananything to you.
You know some days it will,some days it won't.
These things, they meansomething themselves.
(30:11):
So that the importance ofsetting certain spiritual
disciplines, you know, and oftentimes you can be helped by a
good director.
See some spiritual director andsay here's a man, what?
do you?
advise.
It's like seeing a healthexpert.
Well, I want you to read 15minutes of scripture, I want you
to read some books by Henry Now, and I want you to do this.
(30:31):
And I want you to sit for halfan hour in private prayer every
day, or at least five times aweek.
And then you form habits, andhabits become our second nature.
See, I think the mistake wemake is the naivety of goodwill.
God, I want to do something youknow, and you sustain it.
(30:53):
For it's like when I'm going tolose weight, you sustain it for
two weeks and then it falls bythe wayside.
That's why I love that quotefrom Bonhoeffer.
He said let your marriagesustain your love, Let your
ritual sustain your discipleship.
That's one of the thingsevangelicals are learning from
us.
We're learning a lot from them,and that is you know, how do
(31:16):
you sustain yourself for 40years?
Through ritual practice,through showing up for things
right.
Brian Stiller (31:23):
What's the difference, then, between the
discipline and legalism?
At what point does thediscipline become legalistic?
Ronald Rolheiser (31:31):
That's a good question and it's a fine line.
Okay, I'm going to throw itback to you if you can answer
this.
Okay, suppose your mother is ina senior's home okay, you're a
dutiful son, okay, and you visither five or six times a week
because she's your mother.
When is that discipline?
When does it become legalistic?
(31:52):
It's a fine line.
No, you do it, she's yourmother and that's what a son
does and it's meaningful.
It can seem legalistic.
I think it becomes legalisticand there we can learn from
Jesus dealing with the Pharisees.
(32:12):
Where you do something, youknow you do it because it's the
law, you know where.
If you're visiting your mother,you're not doing it because
somebody's obliging you to do it.
It's a discipline, it's hard,and many days you'll notice
she's your mother, noticethere's no gun at your head,
there's no threat of hellfire.
Basically, then it's notlegalistic.
(32:33):
If some director says, unlessyou visit your mother five times
a week, you're offending God,then it becomes legalistic, see,
so the same action can belegalistic or it can simply be
an act of fidelity.
Brian Stiller (32:51):
Ron, you've often talked about this long journey
of transformation.
It doesn't happen immediately.
It happens over a period of alifetime.
You've been teaching thisdiscipline for decades.
What's the hardest thing thatyou've had to learn in being a
teacher and a writer inspirituality?
Ronald Rolheiser (33:13):
That's a good question.
I reflect on it a lot.
I think sometimes it's going tosound simple, just the
disappointment that people getturned on to your words but it
doesn't change their lives.
So people say, yeah, that'sjust wonderful.
But now you know, I'm going tokeep on living the way of you.
(33:35):
Know that the words intriguethem, but you don't necessarily
get the conversion that goeswith it.
You know, and you've probablyexperienced that too.
People say, brian, that wasjust a wonderful, wonderful
homily and I'm going to keep onliving exactly as I lived before
(33:55):
.
Brian Stiller (33:56):
There's a great gulf between the evangelical and
the Catholic world for many.
What would be a misconceptionthat you'd like to set straight
with evangelicals aboutcatholics?
Ronald Rolheiser (34:11):
the first one is there's much less of a gulf
than we imagine.
See, the gulf is 500 years ofmisunderstanding okay, of
misunderstanding, you know?
Um well, I'll use my own story.
I grew up in West CentralSaskatchewan and we didn't have
Evangelicals there.
(34:31):
We had Roman Catholics andLutherans and some Anglicans and
so on.
So I had no experience ofEvangelicals really, and I
didn't really until I came hereand began teaching here and this
is a lot of Evangelicals to me.
It was an eye-opener.
And after 15 or 20 years here Irealized there isn't that much
(34:53):
of a gulf.
Same with evangelicals.
They're surprised that we'renot that weird to each other.
In the end we're all aboutJesus, we're both about Christ,
and so on, so on.
For instance, in the last threeyears I've probably been asked
four or five times by anevangelical community we want
(35:14):
you to come to our church or toour congress and we want you to
give the talk on the PaschalMystery that's in the Holy
Longing, and they want thatspecific talk and they're
intrigued.
They said, god, this is great,this is scriptural, and so on,
and sometimes're intrigued.
They said, god, this is great,this is scriptural, and so on,
and sometimes, right, I'm morepopular in evangelical circles
now than in Roman Catholiccircles and vice versa.
(35:38):
You know Roman Catholics arereading a lot of.
Are you familiar with a youngwoman sadly she died a few years
ago called Rachel Held EvansWas an American, she died at age
37 from a reaction to anantibiotic.
But young Evan Charles, she'sone of the most brilliant.
(35:58):
You know I read every book ofhers and I wrote an obituary and
I said this woman is aspiritual master.
You know it's an evangelical.
This woman is a spiritualmaster.
You know it's an evangelical.
Or we've often had, for instance, we've had David Gushy speak at
our school.
Although the evangelicals don'talways like him, they consider
him post-evangelical.
(36:18):
We have evangelical professorshere.
But Brian the gulf is much lessthan we imagine, although 500
years of misunderstanding arenot easily broken down, but the
good news, it's breaking down.
You know there are a lot ofCatholics who are pretty
(36:38):
comfortable in evangelicalsettings.
I'm one of them.
I know a lot of evangelicalsare getting more and more
comfortable in Catholic settings, without the need to convert,
without the need to move betweenchurches.
You know I can go to anevangelical service and
sometimes do, and I thoroughlyappreciate it.
Brian Stiller (36:56):
I had an interesting lunch with the
current Pope a couple of yearsago in Rome in the little hotel
that he stays in in the Vatican,and we had a long conversation
about a number of things, butwhat he said to me was Brian, I
have no interest in convertingevangelicals, he said now.
(37:18):
He smiled and he said now someof my people here in the Vatican
would not be pleased to hearthat, but he was basically
saying in terms of ourunderstanding of sin and
salvation, the effect of Christin our lives, that he would
understand what I have come tobe as a follower of Christ he
(37:43):
accepted as being legitimate andequal.
It was a remarkable moment.
Ronald Rolheiser (37:49):
I would agree with that 100%.
Remember when I said we haven'thad a single conversion and we
don't want a single conversion.
See, we want people to moredeeply appreciate their own
tradition but at the same timeto more deeply appreciate all
the other traditions.
So since I've come here I havelearned to deeply appreciate a
(38:10):
lot of evangelical traditions.
You know I didn't.
As a kid growing up inSaskatchewan, you know, with a
catechism you were kind of aweird bunch, you know.
And vice versa.
You know a lot of evangelicalshere.
They're really comfortable withbeing in a Roman Catholic
institution.
You know there's no pressure onthem.
(38:32):
I agree with Hope 100%.
Like you know, I'm not worriedabout eternal salvation.
We're all baptized.
That's the deep identity, youknow.
You know I like a little humorabout it.
Do you remember the comedianGarrison Keillor from Minnesota?
One of his lines he said youknow I'm Pius Lutheran.
(38:55):
He said I think I'm going to goto heaven.
He said but what section?
He said imagine in with theMormons and there's no coffee.
All of eternity will be coffee.
But I don't think there's goingto be different sections in
heaven.
We're going to be differentsections in heaven, we're going
to be together.
Brian Stiller (39:10):
Ron, thank you so much for being with us today.
Your book, the Holy Longing theSearch for a Christian
Spirituality that's a book thathas been such a marvelous
resource for me and a blessingto many, many, and I would
encourage my viewers today toaccess this book, the Holy
(39:31):
Longing by Ron Rolheiser.
Ronald, thank you for beingwith us today on Evangelical 360
, and blessings on yourcontinued ministry and service
to the King Jesus.
Ronald Rolheiser (39:40):
Okay, thanks, Brian, and come visit us
sometime.
Brian Stiller (39:46):
Thank you, ron, for joining us today and for
your insights on the importanceof growing in spiritual maturity
, and thank you for being a partof the podcast.
Be sure to share this episode.
Use hashtag Evangelical360, andjoin the conversation on
YouTube.
If you'd like to learn moreabout today's guest, check the
(40:08):
show notes for links and info,and if you haven't already
received my free e-book andnewsletter, go to
brianstillercom.
Thanks again, until next time.
Don't miss the next interview,be sure to subscribe to.
Evangelical 360 on YouTube.
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm your host, brian Stiller,and I'm pleased to share with
you another conversation I havewith leaders, changemakers and
influencers those impactingChristian life around the world.
We'd love for you to be a partof the podcast by sharing this
episode.
Use hashtag Evangelical360 andjoin the conversation on YouTube
(00:34):
.
My guest today is Father RonaldRuhlheiser, a renowned Catholic
priest, writer, speaker andtheologian.
As a member of the MissionaryOblates of Mary Immaculate,
father Rolheiser has spentdecades helping people navigate
the deep longings of the soul.
His best-selling books,including the Holy Longing, the
(00:56):
Search for ChristianSpirituality in Sacred Fire, a
Vision for a Deeper Human andChristian Mat, christian
maturity, have resonated withChristians across traditions.
Today, we'll discuss thegrowing hunger for spirituality
in our time and whatevangelicals can learn from our
Catholic siblings and theirspiritual traditions.
Ron Rollheiser, thank you forjoining us today on Evangelical
(01:25):
360.
Ronald Rolheiser (01:27):
Thank you for having me, Brian Thanks.
Brian Stiller (01:29):
Ron, you have become a global voice for
understanding spirituality, thatubiquitous phrase that seems to
sweep across so many ideas andmovements and voices.
But as we begin today, maybe webest start with give me a
(01:51):
definition of Christianspirituality.
Ronald Rolheiser (01:54):
Okay, brian, I can give you a theoretical
definition.
I'm going to give you apractical one first.
You know, okay, discipleship.
If you look at discipleship ofJesus, like when you look at all
the theology we have, it's likethe rules for a game.
I'm a systematic theologian.
(02:15):
It tells you how you dotheology, but spirituality is
the game.
It's almost like soccer.
You have rules but the game isplaced by the rules.
Spirituality is the game.
That's a practical definition,theoretically, the way I define
it in the Holy Longing.
It's what we do with our spirit.
(02:35):
We all have a spirituality.
It doesn't have to be a churchyspirituality, but whatever you
do with all the longing andstuff inside of you, that is
your spirituality.
And as you saw in the book, ifyou saw the book Holy Longing, I
contrast three people.
(02:55):
Like somebody like MotherTeresa she's a spiritual figure,
you know.
And you look at somebody likeJanice Joplin, the rock star.
We don't look at her as aspiritual figure, but that was
her spirituality whicheventually actually killed her.
Or then I contrast somebodylike Princess Diana, who's half
Mother Teresa, half rock star.
That's her spirituality.
Spirituality isn't first of allsomething you do in church,
(03:19):
it's the way you live out yoursoul, the fire inside of you
live out your soul, the fireinside of you.
Brian Stiller (03:29):
Ron your book the Holy Longing the Search for a
Christian Spirituality.
That book received anunprecedented response from
people around the world.
Were you surprised by that kindof response?
Ronald Rolheiser (03:41):
Yes, I was.
You know, especially.
You know publishing religiously, you know being.
You know publishing religiously.
You know, if you write a bookand you get a religious
publisher, if you sell 10 or20,000, that's a success.
This thing went viral.
I mean, I think it's up toabout 800,000 copies, you know.
So it was a surprise, but ithit a vein.
(04:02):
It just hit the right veinsurprised, but it hit a vein.
Brian Stiller (04:08):
It just hit the right vein.
Ron, you and I are boys of thesame generation, born and raised
in the Western Canadianprovince of Saskatchewan.
Our lives kind of parallel.
You went into Catholic ministryand I went into Protestant
ministry, but your life hascentered around helping people
understand what thatspirituality is about.
What do you think is abroad, inour culture that breeds this
(04:31):
interest in people's lives forsomething that is interior,
that's deeper, that's moreprofound, that's more satisfying
?
What is what's creating that inyour experience?
Ronald Rolheiser (04:48):
A double thing , brian.
One of them is them is, firstof all, it's inside of us.
Remember saint augustine'sfamous line where saint
augustine said you've made ourhearts for yourself, lord our
hearts and the rest of them,they rest in you.
So everybody's going to be, youknow.
But see, spirituality, um,today, a lot of people you've
heard this expression they sayI'm spiritual but not religious.
(05:09):
So our churches tend tostruggle, um, and that that's
the downside.
The upside is, people saythey're still going to try to
learn spirituality.
That's what is a big interest.
The numbers in our churches aredropping, but spirituality
isn't dropping, you know.
(05:29):
So it's a compensation, partlyhealthy and partly not healthy,
you know, in terms of you'veheard that expression many times
I'm spiritual but not religious, which means I can do
spirituality, I can't do achurch, which means I can do
spirituality I can't do a church.
Brian Stiller (05:54):
Is the church sensing that need and responding
to it in ways that you find aresatisfying or meaningful to
people in their search forsomething deeper and more
fulfilling?
Ronald Rolheiser (06:00):
Yes and no, brian, I tell you.
You know, today a church is awide definition.
Take your own congregation, thedenomination.
Some people yes, some peopleare moving the opposite
direction.
You know that, instead of going, they're trying to pull back
and re-entrench more, and that'sin all of the churches.
There's a deep split in thechurches, some of which are
(06:23):
trying to move and incorporateinto spirituality.
Others are saying we've got topull back, we've got to
re-entrench, we've got to getmore fundamentalistic about this
.
It's true in Catholicism, I'msure it's true in your
denomination.
Brian Stiller (06:38):
Ron, my father was a Pentecostal pastor in
Saskatchewan.
Pastor in Saskatchewan and withmy buddies who were Catholic in
elementary and high school anduniversity, it seemed to me that
my spirituality was more aliveand vibrant and leading to
self-discovery beyond what I sawin their lives.
(07:01):
And yet here I'm coming back toyou as a Pentecostal
evangelical, asking you, aCatholic, about spirituality.
It seems to be an interestingprogress.
So I'm wondering what can Ilearn from you as a Catholic
about spirituality, when itseems that my life was built
(07:21):
around spirituality as its verycrux, as its very essence of
what we believed Very goodquestion.
Ronald Rolheiser (07:29):
I want to venture something there.
You know we have differentstrengths.
So when you're saying when youwere a child, you know your
faith in Jesus seemed much morealive than the Catholics, it
doesn't surprise me at all.
See, right now, you know, I'mteaching a doctoral program here
we have a lot of evangelicalstudents, a lot of Roman
(07:49):
Catholics and so on, and I'mnoticing a difference.
The strength of evangelicals isprecisely their aliveness,
their kind of that intimacy withJesus and so on, which we need
to learn from.
You know, for instance, yourcongregations tend to be much
younger.
You can get people on fire.
(08:11):
You know Roman Catholicism, themainline Protestantism, we
struggle with that.
Our strength is more thesustaining.
So I'll give you an example.
We have a number of evangelicalministers who come here to do
our doctoral program and theycome for that reason.
We have a young man.
He started 26 churches.
He met his wife in Africa.
He said I needed help insustaining.
(08:34):
I know how to start it.
I know how to get people fired.
You know he came to want tolearn about dark nights of the
soul and different things.
How do you sustain this over 40or 50 years?
And that's where we need tolearn from each other.
I'm learning a lot fromevangelicals in terms of even
giving an expression we use theword.
(08:56):
I want to put something verysimple.
We need to learn from theevangelicals about Jesus, and
evangelicals need to learn fromthe main churches about Christ.
That's not just Jesus' secondname, see.
In evangelicalism, the intimacy, one-to-one relationship with
Jesus is so central, and that'sJohn's gospel, john's entire
gospel is there are no rules.
(09:17):
You need to be one-to-oneintimacy with Jesus.
You know, see, but Christ isn'tJesus' second name, it's Jesus,
the Christ.
You know, see.
So you're not part of the bodyof Jesus, you're part of the
body of Christ, which is thecorporate thing, which brings in
many other things.
You know and see, that's one ofour strengths, but one of our
(09:40):
weaknesses.
We're not enough about Jesus.
One of our weaknesses we're notenough about Jesus that in
Catholicism or mainline religion, sometimes Jesus becomes a
philosophy.
He becomes an ethics, aphilosophy of ethics, but
doesn't become a person.
See, jesus is a person that yourelate to.
You know, one to one.
(10:02):
Jesus wants the friendship.
Jesus wants you to be his lover.
You know one-to-one Jesus wantsthe friendship.
Jesus wants you to be his lover.
You know, see, and that's beenweaker in the mainline churches
and much stronger inPentecostalism, but just the
evangelical tradition.
You know, I'm convinced we needto learn from each other.
Brian Stiller (10:23):
Ron, I love this quote in your book the Holy
Longing.
Let me just quote it.
You say the central mysterywithin all of Christianity,
undergirding everything else, isthe mystery of the incarnation.
Unfortunately, it is also themystery that is the most
misunderstood or, moreaccurately, to coin a phrase,
(10:44):
under under understood.
It is not so much that wemisunderstand what the
incarnation means, it is morethat we grasp only the smallest
tip of a great iceberg.
We miss its meaning by notseeing its immensity.
You're saying, then, that ourspirituality is really our walk
with Christ.
Ronald Rolheiser (11:05):
Yeah for a Christian, yes, but walk with
Christ.
You know, I'm getting more asI'm getting older.
In writing, I'm getting verycautious how I use the words,
when I use Jesus, when I useChrist, when I use Jesus Christ.
You know, see, jesus is aperson where we link to Jesus is
a friend, and so on, and linkto Jesus is a friend and so on,
(11:27):
and he's also died for us and soon.
But Christ is a mystery.
The incarnation, which didn'tstop, see, when I talk about
it's under understood.
I think the common sense thingis that when Jesus ascended into
heaven 40 years after he leftthe planet, but see, jesus did,
(11:49):
but Christ didn't Like.
St Paul says we are the body ofChrist on earth.
So he doesn't say we're like abody, or he doesn't say we
replaced Jesus, we're Christ'sbody, see, and that goes on.
Like you're still giving fleshto Christ, i're still giving
flesh to Christ.
I'm still giving flesh toChrist, you know and see, and
(12:11):
that, as you can see, the holylonging has immense implications
, you know.
So, for instance, one of theexamples I give in there so, for
instance, if you forgivesomebody, you're part of the
body of Christ, they're forgiven, they're touching the body of
Christ.
I say that to parents.
A lot of people today theirkids don't go to church.
(12:32):
They'll tell me what can I dowith my kids?
Keep loving them, keep attachedto them.
They can't be lost.
You're the body of Christ,they're connected to you,
they're connected to Christ.
Body of Christ.
They're connected to you,they're connected to Christ.
Remember that powerful quote inScripture where the woman of
the hemorrhage says if I justsneak up and touch this garment,
I'll be healed.
(12:52):
She touches, she's healed.
You're that garment, you'repart of that garment.
So that Jesus gave us immensepower.
See everything Jesus leftbehind for us to do.
See, that's part of the mysteryof Christ.
It's interesting.
(13:14):
I got a lot of pushback on thechapter.
I'll give you an example.
Some man wrote.
He says how can you say thatyou can forgive sins?
Only Christ can forgive sins.
Well, he's answering his ownquestion.
You are the body of Christ.
You know he's right.
Only Christ can forgive sins.
But you are part of the body ofChrist.
(13:34):
So is every believer, and that,first of all, is immensely
consoling.
It gives you immense power.
You know, do you have kids?
You can say my habit includesthem.
Brian Stiller (13:49):
They're connected to you, they're connected to
the body of Christ, whetherthey're going to church or not
your line that Christ is not thesecond name of Jesus is a great
line, but it's immenselyprofound.
What is Christ, what does itmean, and how does Christ we,
(14:11):
the body, operate on this planet?
What does that look like?
Ronald Rolheiser (14:16):
Let me start with.
It's not his second name, see,they didn't have second names.
He's Jesus, the son of Joseph,so is Jesus actually the Christ?
He's Jesus the son of Joseph,so is Jesus actually the Christ?
Christos, which means Christ,means the anointed one of God,
that place on earth where Godtakes flesh.
See, jesus was that place onearth where God has concrete
flesh on earth.
(14:37):
But see, jesus ascended intoheaven 40 days after Easter.
But the body of Christ is stillhere.
It's here in all Christianbelievers, you know, and that's
Pauline, we are the body ofChrist, see, so you're still
giving flesh to the mystery ofChrist.
Okay, and so, just to use thoseimages, the woman in Scripture
(15:02):
sneaks up and touch Christ'sgarment.
She's healed.
People touch you, they'rehealed.
Your table is a church, yourfamily is a monastery.
It's a mystery which isincredible.
I gave you an example of a manwho wrote to me and says I can't
believe it.
Only Christ can forgive sins.
I wrote back and said well, youare the body of Christ.
(15:24):
But some woman wrote and saidwell, you are the body of Christ
.
But some woman wrote me andsaid you know, I have seven
children and none of them go tochurch.
And if what you said is true,it's too good to be true.
I said it's a wonderfuldefinition of the incarnation.
It's too good to be true.
That's why we sing Christmasand Easter hymns.
Remember, jesus says in John'sGospel I'm giving you all the
(15:47):
power I have.
I'm giving to you.
You know I'm leaving it withyou.
So Jesus left us.
Christ didn't.
Brian Stiller (15:56):
And that Christ reality is borne out by the
actual presence of the Spiritwho lives in our very
personality and body.
Is that the linkage you wouldmake?
Ronald Rolheiser (16:12):
Yeah, the Spirit.
But basically, when you werebaptized, you become part of the
body of Christ and so that whenyou love somebody, it's not
just you, it's Christ that'sloving this person.
See that in that sense you areincarnating and incorporating
God's presence and love.
When you forgive somebody, Godis forgiving that person.
(16:34):
Like I said, it soundsincredible, it is because the
Christian message is incredible,sounds incredible.
Brian Stiller (16:43):
It is because the Christian message is incredible
.
I was raised in the Pentecostalworld.
That really was a bit of a dooropener to our understanding of
the Spirit a hundred years ago,a new understanding, a fresh
understanding, if you like, ofthe Spirit within the church,
and so I have lived with thatunderstanding of the Spirit in
(17:04):
me, which is Christ, the kingdom, alive in me.
But there is something aboutthe ancient forms of
spirituality that you talk about, especially when you talk about
the four pillars of spirituallife.
List those for me and give me alittle bit of an exegesis of
what you mean about the fourpillars of spiritual life.
List those for me and give me alittle bit of an exegesis of
(17:25):
what you mean by those fourpillars.
The second one surprised me asa pillar.
But just list those and tell mea bit about them.
Ronald Rolheiser (17:35):
First of all, brian, today that's a great
tension inside of our churchesand among our churches about.
You know what's important,what's the gospel?
But what I say, that Jesusleaves us for non-negotiables,
okay.
So the first one is you have tobe a person of private morality
and private charity.
(17:55):
If you're not a charitableperson, you're not keeping the
commandments.
You can't pretend you're adisciple of Jesus.
You're not keeping thecommandments.
You can't pretend you're adisciple of Jesus.
Remember Jesus, if anybodyloves me, they'll keep my word
and that one we've alwaysemphasized you're a church going
Christian.
But then the second one is thequestion of justice, and that's
(18:16):
pretty clear.
I was in a class last night.
To me one of the scariest textsin all of the Scripture is
Matthew 25.
Whatsoever you do text that'sraw Jesus says you know you're
going to be judged.
Do you feed the hungry, givedrink to the thirsty, clothe the
naked, and so on.
See, that often gets left off.
(18:36):
For instance, I can be a verynice man and personally
charitable and not care aboutthe poor.
Vice versa, I can care aboutthe poor and not be a very nice
man.
You've got to be both, you know, see.
Then the third thing is andthat's the important thing is
the question of community.
You could say church, but youknow, christianity is unique in
(18:57):
this way.
With Judaism too, we are acommunitarian religion, which
means Christianity is somethingyou do with other people.
You don't do Christianity alone.
So you can be a Hindu alone, aMuslim alone, a Taoist alone.
You don't have to go to temple,you can't.
But when people say I'mspiritual but not religious, you
(19:20):
know, see, christianity it'ssomething you do with other
people.
We're called to come as a group.
You know, the famous Frenchphilosopher, charles Piguet,
said when you die, you're goingto come in front of Jesus and
he's going to ask you thisquestion where are the others?
Why are you here alone, see?
That's the whole business ofchurch, you know, or some kind
(19:43):
of community.
And then there's still a fourthone, which a lot of people have
.
With all of this, you also haveto have a mellow heart.
See, I can be doing everythingright and they can still all be
wrong.
And we have an example of thatin Scripture.
That's the older brother of theprodigal son.
He's doing everything right andhe's too angry to go into the
(20:04):
house.
You know the story, the olderbrother.
See, you have to do all this.
But you have to have a mellowheart and sometimes that's the
aspect of Jesus we don'temphasize.
You know, jesus shocked andscandalized people with his
capacity to enjoy life.
Jesus shocked people.
(20:26):
He never apologized forenjoying life, but there has to
be a mellowness.
So that's such a powerfulexample in Scripture of the
older brother, the prodigal son.
Remember.
He tells his father I've stayedhome, I've never done the sins,
I've done all the work, butnotice, he can't go to the house
.
The house is heaven, he is toobitter to go into his father's
(20:49):
house, not because he's doneanything wrong, but because
there's anger, you know.
And then suddenly I got thatfrom Gutierrez, the father of
liberation theology.
Remember as a young studentreading this and being kind of
shocked.
So he says, you know, he saidif you're living in North
America and you feel bad aboutthe poor, you feel guilty that
(21:12):
you're.
He said you want to come andhelp us.
He said don't come.
He said don't come.
He said the third world hasmany problems, without importing
your unhappiness, he says he.
He said if you're a person'sgrateful, you're grateful.
What god said come and livewith us, said you have to have a
mellow heart.
Um, see, and that's a challenge, both for people who are, you
(21:33):
know, proselytizing, you know,just, sometimes we're too angry,
we're too bitter, or people insocial justice in your face, and
so on.
Um, the cause is right, but theenergy is all wrong, you know,
see.
So you have to have these threethings, you know private
morality, private relationshipto jesus, concern for the poor,
(21:56):
some kind of community, but alsosome mellowness, some some
softness of heart that we're nota bitter, angry person.
Brian Stiller (22:05):
Ron, given the two traditions that we represent
Catholic, Protestant, Catholic,Evangelical our theology was
very much rooted in Godmanifesting himself through
Jesus, and his salvation becomesmine by the acceptance.
(22:28):
So, from an evangelical pointof view, I'm born again by the
Spirit of Christ, as I receiveChrist into my life, and my life
then is lived out in obedienceto what the Scriptures say.
In obedience to what thescriptures say.
(22:48):
But there's an element ofspirituality that you bring
that's much more mysterious thanthe more self-evident doctrines
and ways of living that I wouldhave learned in my own youth
and would be typicallyevangelical in its exposition
youth and would be typicallyevangelical in its exposition.
But you bring a certain mysteryof God into my walk that's
(23:08):
different to what I'veexperienced, to what I
understand.
Does that make any sense to youas you look at the difference
between our two traditions?
Ronald Rolheiser (23:17):
Yes, let me take a risk.
Those are good questions.
See, you know Luther's thingabout sola scriptura, only
scripture.
Okay, there's something verygood about that, but the problem
is it can also be too lean adiet.
See, I'll use an image.
(23:38):
I believe that Luther andCalvin and Swingley, they were
so afraid of contaminants.
You know, like the indulgencesand all this stuff, that the
danger is you put yourself on adiet with only antiseptics.
You know You're never going todie of food poisoning, but
sometimes, see, so you know whatSome of the tradition we have.
You know, I'll teach it over thestory.
(23:59):
You know the young man who camehere, evangelical, six, seven
years ago, actually teaches atour faculty now.
You know him and his wife hadstarted 26 churches in Africa
and he kind of burned out, verysincere, and he said but I
needed trouble sustaining.
So he came, but he wanted tostudy it.
(24:22):
He wanted to study dark nights,mysticism, like what happens
when you know God seems todisappear in your life.
And how do you sustain the longhaul?
Well, first he found themystics, but then he found it in
Scripture.
You know, it's not like themystics.
So then he wrote his thesis onwilderness in Scripture and so
on.
See those themes, it's not likethe mystics invented them.
(24:43):
They are in Scripture butthey're easy to miss.
You know themes like wildernessand the silence of God and so
on.
They're there, but sometimes weneed each other's traditions to
help tease them out.
You know and see Christianitywe have 2,000 years of history,
(25:06):
not all of it good, but a lot ofit good.
But you know, there's some deepwells we call them in our
spiritual life.
There's some deep wells to goin and study.
You know of Christian mysticism, and also not just Roman
Catholics, protestants andEvangelicals, you know.
But it's interesting Usuallywhen you find something in a and
evangelicals.
You know, but it's interestingUsually when you find something
in a great mystic, you'll alsofind it in Scripture.
(25:26):
Like I teach courses on John ofthe Cross and the Dark Knight.
Where is that in Scripture?
Well, it's there in wilderness.
It's there in desert themes.
It's there in Jesus on thecross crying out why have you
forsaken me?
It's there in Good Friday, youknow.
See.
So those themes, it's not likethey're not in scripture, it's
in scripture.
(25:47):
But sometimes we need otherhelp to tease that out.
You know, brian, I'll tell youit's an interesting story.
We started a PhD program herein spirituality 17 years ago.
Brian Stiller (26:00):
Well, Ron, let me just jump in there for our
viewers.
Just give me a thumbnail sketchof where you are and what you
do and the nature of your school.
Ronald Rolheiser (26:10):
I'm at the Aubrey School of Theology in San
Antonio, texas, which is aRoman Catholic seminary school.
We teach seminarians.
We probably have 125seminarians that we teach here,
but they're not half of ourstudents.
But we have different programs,masters.
But we have two doctoralprograms and one of them is you
(26:30):
can do a doctorate inspirituality, and we're only one
of two schools in North Americathe other one's in Toronto that
is licensed by the ATS to do adoctorate in spirituality.
But at any given time ourstudents are one-third Roman,
one-third Protestant, one-thirdevangelical.
And this is the story I want totell you In 17 years we've
(26:55):
never had a single conversion.
We've never had anybody convertfrom one denomination to another
, and we're happy about that.
We've never had anybody convertfrom one denomination to
another, and we're happy aboutthat.
But everybody has left moreappreciative of their own
denomination and moreappreciative of every other
denomination.
See, that's.
You know, every evangelical hasleft as an evangelical.
Every Protestant has left as aProtestant, more appreciative of
(27:19):
your own tradition but at thesame time much more appreciative
of all the other traditions.
Because you know, spiritualityis your common language.
You know, like, see,ecclesiology and theology, we're
going to meet our differences,spirituality and discipleship.
You don't.
What Jesus asks, it's the samefor you, it's the same for me,
(27:41):
it's the same for everybody.
And that spirituality, it's thesame for you, it's the same for
me, it's the same for everybody.
Brian Stiller (27:47):
And that spirituality, it's the common
language we have, and I believeit's where we're going to come
together, ron.
Let's move it now to what can aperson do to deepen their walk
with the Lord.
Lord, out of your Catholicexperience, what can you
contribute to us in how I deepenmy walk, my life with Christ,
(28:16):
strengthen my walk, find abetter understanding of the
Christ who is in me and whosebody is.
Ronald Rolheiser (28:20):
Christ here in this world.
Let me suggest something there,and I'm going to begin with.
Incidentally, tomorrow's theanniversary of the death of
Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer was aLutheran priest and when he
would marry a couple, perform amarriage, this was his homily.
He'd always tell the coupletoday you're in love, you're
very much in love, and you thinkyour love will sustain your
(28:43):
marriage, but it won't.
But your marriage can sustainyour love.
Now, what he's saying is this wewon't sustain our faith through
good feelings.
Feelings come and go.
For instance, if you're onlygoing to pray when you feel like
it, you're not going to prayvery often, see.
So we sustain and deepen ourprayer through habit, through
(29:03):
rituals.
You know.
So what I advise.
If I'm a spiritual director setyourself some spiritual
disciplines.
You know whether you knowyou're going to do some reading,
you're going to do somescripture, you're going to do
certain prayers and so on, orsome prayer method, but you're
going to do it.
Or some prayer method, butyou're going to do it whether
you feel like it or not.
You know, see all the greatprayers they say the answer to
(29:28):
the deep thing of all prayers isjust to show up.
It doesn't matter whether youfeel like it or not, just to be
there.
See, and I think too often wetry to sustain ourselves through
our energy and our goodfeelings, but you won't.
You know, I use an expressionwhich I got from Annie Lamott.
(29:49):
She says that, like church,it's like visiting your
grandmother.
You don't do it because itmeans something to you, it means
something to your grandmother.
You go and you see Jesus.
Like people say, I don't go tochurch.
To church doesn't mean anythingto me.
You know well.
It doesn't have to meananything to you.
You know some days it will,some days it won't.
These things, they meansomething themselves.
(30:11):
So that the importance ofsetting certain spiritual
disciplines, you know, and oftentimes you can be helped by a
good director.
See some spiritual director andsay here's a man, what?
do you?
advise.
It's like seeing a healthexpert.
Well, I want you to read 15minutes of scripture, I want you
to read some books by Henry Now, and I want you to do this.
(30:31):
And I want you to sit for halfan hour in private prayer every
day, or at least five times aweek.
And then you form habits, andhabits become our second nature.
See, I think the mistake wemake is the naivety of goodwill.
God, I want to do something youknow, and you sustain it.
(30:53):
For it's like when I'm going tolose weight, you sustain it for
two weeks and then it falls bythe wayside.
That's why I love that quotefrom Bonhoeffer.
He said let your marriagesustain your love, Let your
ritual sustain your discipleship.
That's one of the thingsevangelicals are learning from
us.
We're learning a lot from them,and that is you know, how do
(31:16):
you sustain yourself for 40years?
Through ritual practice,through showing up for things
right.
Brian Stiller (31:23):
What's the difference, then, between the
discipline and legalism?
At what point does thediscipline become legalistic?
Ronald Rolheiser (31:31):
That's a good question and it's a fine line.
Okay, I'm going to throw itback to you if you can answer
this.
Okay, suppose your mother is ina senior's home okay, you're a
dutiful son, okay, and you visither five or six times a week
because she's your mother.
When is that discipline?
When does it become legalistic?
(31:52):
It's a fine line.
No, you do it, she's yourmother and that's what a son
does and it's meaningful.
It can seem legalistic.
I think it becomes legalisticand there we can learn from
Jesus dealing with the Pharisees.
(32:12):
Where you do something, youknow you do it because it's the
law, you know where.
If you're visiting your mother,you're not doing it because
somebody's obliging you to do it.
It's a discipline, it's hard,and many days you'll notice
she's your mother, noticethere's no gun at your head,
there's no threat of hellfire.
Basically, then it's notlegalistic.
(32:33):
If some director says, unlessyou visit your mother five times
a week, you're offending God,then it becomes legalistic, see,
so the same action can belegalistic or it can simply be
an act of fidelity.
Brian Stiller (32:51):
Ron, you've often talked about this long journey
of transformation.
It doesn't happen immediately.
It happens over a period of alifetime.
You've been teaching thisdiscipline for decades.
What's the hardest thing thatyou've had to learn in being a
teacher and a writer inspirituality?
Ronald Rolheiser (33:13):
That's a good question.
I reflect on it a lot.
I think sometimes it's going tosound simple, just the
disappointment that people getturned on to your words but it
doesn't change their lives.
So people say, yeah, that'sjust wonderful.
But now you know, I'm going tokeep on living the way of you.
(33:35):
Know that the words intriguethem, but you don't necessarily
get the conversion that goeswith it.
You know, and you've probablyexperienced that too.
People say, brian, that wasjust a wonderful, wonderful
homily and I'm going to keep onliving exactly as I lived before
(33:55):
.
Brian Stiller (33:56):
There's a great gulf between the evangelical and
the Catholic world for many.
What would be a misconceptionthat you'd like to set straight
with evangelicals aboutcatholics?
Ronald Rolheiser (34:11):
the first one is there's much less of a gulf
than we imagine.
See, the gulf is 500 years ofmisunderstanding okay, of
misunderstanding, you know?
Um well, I'll use my own story.
I grew up in West CentralSaskatchewan and we didn't have
Evangelicals there.
(34:31):
We had Roman Catholics andLutherans and some Anglicans and
so on.
So I had no experience ofEvangelicals really, and I
didn't really until I came hereand began teaching here and this
is a lot of Evangelicals to me.
It was an eye-opener.
And after 15 or 20 years here Irealized there isn't that much
(34:53):
of a gulf.
Same with evangelicals.
They're surprised that we'renot that weird to each other.
In the end we're all aboutJesus, we're both about Christ,
and so on, so on.
For instance, in the last threeyears I've probably been asked
four or five times by anevangelical community we want
(35:14):
you to come to our church or toour congress and we want you to
give the talk on the PaschalMystery that's in the Holy
Longing, and they want thatspecific talk and they're
intrigued.
They said, god, this is great,this is scriptural, and so on,
and sometimes're intrigued.
They said, god, this is great,this is scriptural, and so on,
and sometimes, right, I'm morepopular in evangelical circles
now than in Roman Catholiccircles and vice versa.
(35:38):
You know Roman Catholics arereading a lot of.
Are you familiar with a youngwoman sadly she died a few years
ago called Rachel Held EvansWas an American, she died at age
37 from a reaction to anantibiotic.
But young Evan Charles, she'sone of the most brilliant.
(35:58):
You know I read every book ofhers and I wrote an obituary and
I said this woman is aspiritual master.
You know it's an evangelical.
This woman is a spiritualmaster.
You know it's an evangelical.
Or we've often had, for instance, we've had David Gushy speak at
our school.
Although the evangelicals don'talways like him, they consider
him post-evangelical.
(36:18):
We have evangelical professorshere.
But Brian the gulf is much lessthan we imagine, although 500
years of misunderstanding arenot easily broken down, but the
good news, it's breaking down.
You know there are a lot ofCatholics who are pretty
(36:38):
comfortable in evangelicalsettings.
I'm one of them.
I know a lot of evangelicalsare getting more and more
comfortable in Catholic settings, without the need to convert,
without the need to move betweenchurches.
You know I can go to anevangelical service and
sometimes do, and I thoroughlyappreciate it.
Brian Stiller (36:56):
I had an interesting lunch with the
current Pope a couple of yearsago in Rome in the little hotel
that he stays in in the Vatican,and we had a long conversation
about a number of things, butwhat he said to me was Brian, I
have no interest in convertingevangelicals, he said now.
(37:18):
He smiled and he said now someof my people here in the Vatican
would not be pleased to hearthat, but he was basically
saying in terms of ourunderstanding of sin and
salvation, the effect of Christin our lives, that he would
understand what I have come tobe as a follower of Christ he
(37:43):
accepted as being legitimate andequal.
It was a remarkable moment.
Ronald Rolheiser (37:49):
I would agree with that 100%.
Remember when I said we haven'thad a single conversion and we
don't want a single conversion.
See, we want people to moredeeply appreciate their own
tradition but at the same timeto more deeply appreciate all
the other traditions.
So since I've come here I havelearned to deeply appreciate a
(38:10):
lot of evangelical traditions.
You know I didn't.
As a kid growing up inSaskatchewan, you know, with a
catechism you were kind of aweird bunch, you know.
And vice versa.
You know a lot of evangelicalshere.
They're really comfortable withbeing in a Roman Catholic
institution.
You know there's no pressure onthem.
(38:32):
I agree with Hope 100%.
Like you know, I'm not worriedabout eternal salvation.
We're all baptized.
That's the deep identity, youknow.
You know I like a little humorabout it.
Do you remember the comedianGarrison Keillor from Minnesota?
One of his lines he said youknow I'm Pius Lutheran.
(38:55):
He said I think I'm going to goto heaven.
He said but what section?
He said imagine in with theMormons and there's no coffee.
All of eternity will be coffee.
But I don't think there's goingto be different sections in
heaven.
We're going to be differentsections in heaven, we're going
to be together.
Brian Stiller (39:10):
Ron, thank you so much for being with us today.
Your book, the Holy Longing theSearch for a Christian
Spirituality that's a book thathas been such a marvelous
resource for me and a blessingto many, many, and I would
encourage my viewers today toaccess this book, the Holy
(39:31):
Longing by Ron Rolheiser.
Ronald, thank you for beingwith us today on Evangelical 360
, and blessings on yourcontinued ministry and service
to the King Jesus.
Ronald Rolheiser (39:40):
Okay, thanks, Brian, and come visit us
sometime.
Brian Stiller (39:46):
Thank you, ron, for joining us today and for
your insights on the importanceof growing in spiritual maturity
, and thank you for being a partof the podcast.
Be sure to share this episode.
Use hashtag Evangelical360, andjoin the conversation on
YouTube.
If you'd like to learn moreabout today's guest, check the
(40:08):
show notes for links and info,and if you haven't already
received my free e-book andnewsletter, go to
brianstillercom.
Thanks again, until next time.
Don't miss the next interview,be sure to subscribe to.
Evangelical 360 on YouTube.
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