August 8, 2025 • 37 mins
Dr. Byron Klaus invites us into a fascinating exploration of Pentecostalism's remarkable journey from the margins to becoming the largest segment of global Protestantism. As former president of the Assemblies of God Theological Seminary and a respected Pentecostal scholar, Klaus brings both academic insight and personal experience to this conversation about a movement that has fundamentally reshaped Christianity worldwide.
We begin by tracing Pentecostalism's origins to the "theological winds" of the 19th century Holiness and Keswick movements, which created a hunger for deeper spiritual experience. These currents culminated in what Klaus calls "combustion points" - most famously at Azusa Street in 1906 Los Angeles, but also through numerous immigrant communities across North America. What made early Pentecostalism distinctive was its emergence among "the marginalized, the disenfranchised, people who lived at the edges of society," who found in Spirit-filled faith a source of hope and empowerment.
Dismissed by established churches, early Pentecostals formed separate communities centered on biblical authority and spiritual experience. Klaus candidly discusses both the movement's strengths and its "Achilles heel" - a tendency to follow charismatic personalities who become the movement's focal point. He also addresses contemporary challenges, particularly the political polarization affecting American churches, noting his own journey toward becoming "increasingly apolitical" as he recognizes that no political vision truly aligns with God's kingdom priorities.
The conversation turns global as Klaus explains why Pentecostalism became what Harvey Cox called "a religion made to travel" - a spiritual seed that could be planted in any culture and flourish through the Spirit's power. With his denomination counting just 3 million adherents in America but 80 million worldwide, Klaus speaks from firsthand observation about how Pentecostalism's adaptability has fueled Christianity's explosive growth across Africa, Asia, and Latin America.
For Western believers, Klaus suggests humility in learning from Global South Christians who demonstrate "the vibrancy of Christianity in the middle of suffering" - maintaining profound faith amid material lack, persecution, and uncertainty. His advice for future leaders emphasizes avoiding overconfidence, building cross-generational relationships, and developing strong theological foundations.
You can learn more from Byron Klaus through his website and published works.
And don't forget to share this episode using hashtag #Evangelical360 and join the conversation online!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brian Stiller (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm your host, brian Stiller,and I'm pleased to share with
you another conversation that Ihave with leaders, changemakers
and influencers those who impactChristian life around the world
.
Makers and influencers thosewho impact Christian life around
the world We'd love for you tobe a part of the podcast by
sharing this episode, usehashtag Evangelical360, and join
(00:38):
the conversation on YouTube inthe comments below.
My guest today is the Rev DrByron Claus, a Pentecostal
pastor, scholar, leader ofinternational mission and former
president of the Assemblies ofGod Theological Seminary in
Springfield, missouri.
For 16 years as seminarypresident, byron mentored and
influenced the next generationof Pentecostal pastors and
leaders.
He's a widely respected voicein the Pentecostal movement and
(01:01):
I'm so grateful that he's heretoday with us to talk about the
history of that movement and theglobal impact this next
generation will have.
Byron Claus, so good to haveyou on Evangelical 360 today.
Byron Klaus (01:21):
Well, it's a wonderful opportunity to be with
you, Brian .
Brian Stiller (01:26):
Well, it's a wonderful opportunity to be with
you, Byron.
We became friends as we weremutually responsible for
seminaries you in Springfield,missouri, and me in Toronto and
we became friends as we weremanaging these enterprises,
which was a challenge at best.
But in preparing for today, Ihad forgotten that I had written
the foreword to your book.
(01:47):
Here's what I wrote as a fellowPentecostal from Canada, I long
for someone within the AmericanPentecostal world to write
honestly and prophetically aboutthis world movement that began
in the US.
I say that you're a section onAmerican spirituality.
I say that you're a section onAmerican spirituality.
You don't let us get away with asmugness that rests on the past
(02:08):
, notwithstanding the Americanchurch's community remarkable
growth and influence.
I said this about this bookthat you wrote.
Instead, he calls us up short,pressing us to consider the
depths of today's spirituality.
Not driven by nostalgia, hisheart yearns to ensure that the
ongoing life of the church isrooted in Christ and his spirit.
(02:31):
One thing I learned about you,byron, is that you have a candor
that is surprising and a bitshocking at times, but so
refreshing.
And so today, as we talk aboutthe Pentecostal movement
globally, but so refreshing.
And so today, as we talk aboutthe Pentecostal movement
globally, I have a real interestin hearing from you as we think
(02:51):
about the past and the presentand the future of this global
movement that you and I havebeen a part of and have had
responsibility and leadership.
And so today, as we begin, Ithink it would be good to go
back and refresh our minds as towhat the Pentecostal movement
is and how it emerged in the USand globally.
(03:18):
Give us a thumbnail sketch ofthat
Byron Klaus (03:20):
beginning of the 20th century is something that
has really its foundation inseveral movements that occur in
the 19th century.
I think the roots really comefrom John Wesley and in the 19th
century you see both theholiness and Keswick movements
(03:41):
developing and the thing that ina sense develops there is this
desire for a deeper life withthe Lord, that there is this
desire to have a deeper life.
The Keswick movement was adeeper life movement and what
happens at that point is withthe holiness movement, the
(04:02):
Keswick movement, there's amovement towards a second
experience, a subsequentexperience to salvation, a
desire to go deeper, to be morefervent, and those movements
really are what I calltheological winds and they are
the fuel for combustion pointsthat occur late 19th, early 20th
(04:28):
century.
So you have a world that is influx.
You have a world that ischanging and the impact of the
revolution is changing.
There's a lot of immigrationgoing on, particularly to North
America, there's people comingfrom particularly Europe, and it
all comes together and thereare combustion points, and the
(04:50):
major one that gets most of thestory is the combustion point at
Azusa Street in April 1906 inLos Angeles, while that is the
most storied of these combustionpoints for all of this
spiritual fervor that's going on.
There are a lot of tributariesand as we move ourselves away
(05:11):
like 125 years now from thatperiod, we see that there are
other little tributaries.
And those little tributaries,you know, have to do, for
instance, with the immigrantmovements.
Much of the story of earlyPentecostalism is around
immigrant movements in the USand in Canada and they're around
Germans and Scandinavians andPolish and Romanians and
(05:36):
Italians, and they have theirown stories, as well as
African-American and BlackCanadians have their own stories
.
So I like to talk about thefuel, which is largely the
Holiness Movement, the KeswickMovement, and then combustion
points that probably have to domore with God's sovereignty.
(05:58):
That just sort of sparks all ofthe things that are happening
during that period of time,sparks all of the things that
are happening during that periodof time.
So that's sort of thebackground of the immersion of
the Pentecostal movement as weknow it today.
Brian Stiller (06:11):
And what were the factors in America that were
particularly important inshaping or in giving direction
to the Pentecostal movement inthe US?
Byron Klaus (06:21):
Well, you know, I think it would certainly those
the Keswick movement, thisdeeper life movement, the
holiness movement, which wasfocused on sanctification and
dynamic moments in people'slives.
This isn't just sort of youooze into this experience.
There are flashpoints, you havethese crisis moments, and I
(06:43):
think that the place that thisemerges is among what we might
call the marginalized, thedisenfranchised, the people who
lived at the edges of society.
The people who were initiallyimpacted by this were people who
had been left by the wayside ofthe road and they had no place
else to go, and they found inthis encounter with God a
(07:04):
clarification in theirrelationship with Jesus Christ,
an empowerment to, in a sense,give them hope in the middle of
their hopelessness.
Brian Stiller (07:13):
That really is a key factor in how it emerged in
North America and, you know, inmy case here in the United
States know, in my case here inthe United States that happened
within the larger context ofProtestantism, where you have
Wesleyanism or Methodism and youhave other mainline churches
(07:34):
that were going through its owntheological shift within the
20th century, and did thatgenerate a kind of a
fundamentalism in thePentecostal movement?
Or how did they respond to this, to the shifting of the old
line Protestant churches?
Byron Klaus (07:52):
Because their experience, you know this is Jim
Crow era and so the experienceof Pentecostals was viewed
through this racial lens.
Okay, so the emotionalism, theemotion, you know, the sheer
emotion of Pentecostalism wasmet by what we might call the
(08:13):
established church as being.
The LA Times called itNegroisms.
Okay, it was dismissed assimply an expression of quote,
unquote Negro religion.
And so, as a whole, thePentecostal movement, whether it
was black or white or whateverit was, was dismissed largely by
(08:34):
the established church at thatparticular time.
So anytime you are dismissed asan aborition by an established
group, are dismissed as anaberration by an established
group, you sort of rally thetroops around yourselves and you
in a sense become your ownenemy.
You got to gain identity fromsomething and they sort of
separated themselves from theinfluence of the larger
(08:57):
established church and sort ofbecame an enclave of their own.
They were pretty isolated.
Brian Stiller (09:02):
And how did they respond to the growing
theological liberalism of theold line churches?
Byron Klaus (09:10):
Yeah, they were definitely on the side of the
authority of Scripture and whatwe might at that time call the
fundamentalist side.
I mean they were people of theword.
There was no doubt about theauthority of Scripture.
You know, there was no doubtabout the authority of Scripture
.
You know.
For me, though, those thingsweren't conceptual battles.
For example, growing up in aPentecostal church back in the
(09:32):
mid-20th century, I remember myfather.
Before he would preach everysermon, we would sing a song,
and the song would say the Biblestands, though the hills may
tumble, it will firmly stand.
When the earth shall crumble, Iwill plant my feet on its firm
foundation, for the Bible stands, though the hills may tumble,
it will firmly stand.
When the earth shall crumble, Iwill plant my feet on its firm
(09:53):
foundation, for the Bible stands.
So that isn't theological jargon, but that is in a sense a
stance that the Bible isauthoritative, it speaks to our
lives today,
Brian Stiller (10:07):
and that particular stance almost raised
it.
In my experience.
It raised it above this debatebetween conservatism and
liberalism.
It was almost within our church.
That was a non-issue.
Byron Klaus (10:15):
Non-issue, non issue.
The authority of Scripture was.
You know, you believed it.
It spoke to your life.
It spoke to you in the middleof your life.
The narratives of Scripturespoke to you.
You identified with the peoplein Scripture the challenges they
faced.
You faced too, and that was itsauthority.
Brian Stiller (10:35):
But it seems that there was a an important
influence within, I guess, everyreligious movement, but within
the Pentecostals personalitiesthat rose to the surface.
So I think of Amy SempleMcPherson.
She was a Canadian who wentdown there, started out as a
Salvation Army lass and emergedas this major voice within
(11:00):
America.
What other kind of voices wereimportant to the development of
the Pentecostals in the US?
Byron Klaus (11:08):
I think as a general rule, pentecostals have
always been attracted to strongvoices.
We can call them pioneers, wecan call them entrepreneurs, we
can call them early adopters,but there's always been strong
voices okay, strong voices thathave typified and been responded
(11:32):
to in the Pentecostal movement.
That is true across the boardand you know, obviously I think
Amy Semple McPherson is anexample of a voice that had
broad appeal across NorthAmerica and certainly in the
United States.
I don't think that there'sreally a person that might be
(11:53):
typified as strong as Amy SempleMcPherson that emerged, but
there were always strong voicesand pioneering prophetic voices
that people responded to.
Why?
Because they saw them as sentfrom God and people who spoke to
their needs in their particularsituation.
Brian Stiller (12:11):
But you do have this bifurcation within the
evangelical world.
You have your standardevangelical community and then
the Pentecostals, and we wereseen as evangelical outliers.
How did that message of theSpirit become more ubiquitous,
influencing those churches thatinitially would reject the
(12:34):
essential Pentecostal message?
Byron Klaus (12:37):
Well, you know, I think that's a long story that
is certainly still playingitself out today.
And you know, I think that backin the mid-40s in the United
States, when mid-1940s, when theNational Association of
Evangelicals sort of emerged, inthat the Sempsons of God was
there right at the beginning andwe had strong through the
(13:01):
mid-20thth century, strongpresence in the National
Association of Evangelicals atsome point I don't know if it's
true today, but we were thelargest constituent group in the
National Association ofEvangelicals and while that, on
the official sort of theofficialness of things, we were
part of that movement, there wasthere, always has been, this
tension between the enthusiasmof Pentecostals, particularly
(13:25):
around spiritual gifts, healingmanifestations, that has kept us
being viewed as sort of thecrazy cousin in the family and
that's still present.
But I think as we move into thelatter part of the 20th century
and we get into the charismaticmovement and then we get into
the third wave of this awakeningthat occurred at the beginning
(13:49):
of the century, we see a muchmore oozing of our themes into
the larger spheres ofevangelicalism.
So it's been a long process.
I think the tensions are stillthere and I can, even as an old
(14:13):
guy, I can walk into a room ofevangelicals and identify myself
as Pentecostal and people sortof raise their eyebrows and
wonder can this guy actuallyread and has he got any degrees?
I mean, can this guy actuallyread and you know, has he got
any degrees?
I mean, that still is present.
Brian Stiller (14:25):
We have gone through major religious shifts
secular, decreased churchattendance right across North
America.
What does the PentecostalChurch face today?
What does the PentecostalChurch face today?
I noticed in the latest pollthat the Assemblies of God has
(14:46):
maintained her numbers over thelast few years, while most
churches have diminished intheir numbers.
And so, given that, what arethe issues that the Assemblies
of God, as the major Pentecostalchurch in the US, what is it
facing today?
Byron Klaus (15:00):
You know I can only speak for.
You know the church I'mordained in, the Assemblies of
God.
We're actually the secondlargest group in the US.
The largest group is primarilyAfrican-American Church of God
and Christ.
We're about 3 million ininheritance.
Church of God and Christ isabout 6 million, so I can't
speak for them.
However, I think that, as, shallwe say, a movement that came
(15:24):
out of what you might call anawakening.
Anytime you get generationsaway from the flashpoint, the
combustion point, things justchange.
We can look at the naturalprogression of any movement.
It moves away from its initialvibrancy to structures that are
(15:55):
created to support that vibrancy, and then the structures
themselves become what wesupport.
That is certainly the case inour movement.
However, I think there are twothings that have maintained what
seems to be an anomaly in thechurch today in America, and
that is we continue to growslowly, and I think there's
several things.
Number one you know we are over40% people of color and we are
(16:19):
pushing 40 plus percent.
That are about 40% people under35 years old.
We have been involved withpeople who have immigrated to
the United States.
The truth is that the immigrantpopulations that are a part of
the summits of God do keep usrevitalized and do add to our
(16:41):
numbers, and the fact that wehave been across the board, been
able to attract young peoplewith a 40% adherent population
at, you know, under 35 years old, that's pretty good.
And so we've been able to.
We've met those challenges andhave continued growing because
of those, have continued growingbecause of those.
(17:06):
I think you know the sort ofbifurcated world that we live in
today.
People are always wantingstatements to be made by
officials, by congregationalleaders, by national leaders.
You know what is the church'sstance on these things, and I
think that there is no doubtthat we have been historically
apolitical.
That has changed over the years.
(17:28):
For instance, the Assemblies ofGod historically was a pacifist
organization and you know thatobviously is not a primary DNA
of our organization today, dnaof our organization today.
There is no doubt that theculture has impacted us.
(17:52):
We have resisted in some casesand we have capitulated in
others, and I think that thekinds of issues gender identity,
all these kinds of issues thatare overwhelming us, kinds of
issues that are overwhelming uswe have a strong background, you
know, a part of our DNA is aholiness background, and so
there has been a resistance tothese kinds of intrusions on the
same but at the same point,because we have resisted those,
(18:16):
we have isolated ourselves andnot engaged those things in a
meaningful way.
We have simply said that'swrong or we shouldn't be part of
that, and that's not a strategyover the long haul,
particularly when you're dealingwith younger people who are
influenced by things that theirparents were not influenced by.
(18:37):
So I would say we're struggling.
In all those areas.
We have certainly made clearstatements.
You know, when it comes toimmigration, when it comes to
racism, when it comes to genderidentity, we have strong
statements on those things.
However, when you get to thecongregational level, it's a
(18:58):
mixed bag and I think that thenumbers would tell us that at
times we affirm thingsofficially but question them
unofficially at the grassrootslevel.
So I would not be saying thatwe have resisted all of the
cultural intrusions into ourlife at all.
(19:19):
We have been impacted just likeany other organization.
Brian Stiller (19:23):
And, over the last few years, the culture wars
that seem to be marked by thepolitical divide.
Surely that must have an impacton both the nature of the
church, its witness, and itstheology of the church, its
(19:46):
witness and its theology.
Byron Klaus (19:47):
We struggle like any other group.
I'm conflicted in this area.
I see in many cases leadersidentifying themselves with
political movements andpolitical leadership, and I'm
deeply concerned about that.
As I get older, I must admit toyou that I'm becoming
increasingly apolitical, that Ihave deep, deep concerns for the
(20:11):
poor, for the needy, for thebypassed in life, but I am
increasingly wary of all voicesin the political world because I
just think that we truly are,we're citizens of heaven and
we're here to represent thekingdom of God, and I'm not sure
(20:32):
that any political vision comesanywhere close to the kinds of
priorities that exist in thekingdom of God.
And so we are facing thepolitical forces that all too
often have in a sense capturedour hearts, and that's true of
(20:52):
my organization as well asothers our hearts, and that's
true of my organization as wellas others.
Brian Stiller (20:57):
Is there anything particularly about the
Pentecostal ethos, its message,its formulation that allows it
to do something or not dosomething?
Given the political divide andthe issues that seem to grind
away at the American people Ihear, without listing all the
(21:20):
social political issues andpersonalities that are part of
your scene do Pentecostalstraditionally stay outside of
making any kind of socialstatement that might be shaped
by a biblical worldview, or arethey just?
Are they pacifist as it relatesto the social political world
(21:41):
as well?
Byron Klaus (21:42):
I think our holiness background has kept us
from what I would call arigorous engagement with social
issues.
You know I grew up on.
You know, come apart and beseparate, sayeth the Lord.
Issues you know I grew up on,you know, come apart and be
separate, saith the Lord.
And so we just sort of workedour way.
We kept, we kept clear of thosekinds of things.
However, I'll give you anexample.
(22:03):
You know, when you have 40percent plus of your adherents
being people of color and themajority of that group being
Hispanic, and obviously that isan immigrant group coming to the
United States, you have to getinvolved because many of the
people who attend our churchesare undocumented.
(22:26):
So you get drawn into thesekinds of things.
And when you don't have a longhistory of engaging the public
square with deep theologicalthought, sometimes your
responses are hit and miss.
Ok, they're not as strong asthey might be.
I mean, we're not, we're not theCatholic Church and have this,
(22:50):
you know, couple thousand yearsof public policy dealing with
things.
We don't have that.
We have been largely the folksthat on the other side of the
tracks who have been fodder forevery populist movement that
comes along and we don't dealwith things well, but we're
doing better.
Okay, and I think, particularlyaround the immigration issue,
(23:12):
we have made some very strongstatements about our commitment
to those who have been bypassedby the world, and I think that
we are.
We are coming along on genderidentity issues, but we don't
have a strong history andtherefore our responses at times
are a mixed bag.
(23:33):
Therefore, our responses attimes are a mixed bag and we
don't have a lot of articulatevoices.
Brian Stiller (23:41):
A growing number, but not a lot of articulate
voices.
Byron, let's shift to the globe.
You suggested in one of yourarticles that the Pentecostal
message is a message thattravels.
That travels well, it seems, asthe Pentecostal message has
(24:02):
given energy to the largerevangelical movement.
This message has gone global,so that today the global South,
as we call it Africa, latinAmerica and Asia seems to be the
center of the growth ofChristianity.
Byron Klaus (24:20):
Harvey Cox, the Harvard theologian, in 1993
wrote a book entitled Fire fromHeaven, and in that book he made
a prediction, and that was that21st century Christianity would
thrive in the global South andit would be largely Pentecostal
charismatic.
I think he's correct in that Ifwe I mean right now Pentecostal
(24:43):
charismatic movement is thelargest component of
Protestantism, and I think thatthe reality is is that where the
gospel is most resisted andleast accessible is the place
that the church is most vibranttoday, and that is in the global
South.
So the predictions of Cox backin 1993 have absolutely become,
(25:06):
you know, reality and it'sdocumented in data.
So there's no doubt that.
And the phrase that I used inone of those books was a phrase
I borrowed from Harvey Cox,which he called Pentecostalism,
(25:26):
a religion made to travel.
That in fact it was a seed thatcould be planted in any culture
and emerge with vibrancy.
Brian Stiller (25:36):
And why do you think that was or is?
Byron Klaus (25:39):
Well, I think that early Pentecostal missionaries
who went around the world andyou know the way I view
Pentecostal history is throughthe lens I mean my organization,
the Assemblies of God.
My denomination is, you know,not quite 3 million in the
United States but 80 millionworldwide we made a commitment
(26:00):
in 1914 as an organization tothe greatest evangelism the
world has ever seen.
So when you look at, the oneway to look at Pentecostalism is
that it has been essentially amission society.
And so we have gone around theworld.
And one of the things that weaffirmed in those early years
was written by an early Anglicanmissionary who was prominent at
(26:26):
that time but viewed as anoutlier by the Anglican church.
His name was Roland Allen and hewrote.
One of the books he wrote wascalled the Spontaneous Expansion
of the Church and in short, itbasically said that the gospel
inherently could grow on its ownwhen planted.
(26:46):
He looked at the book of Actsand saw the assumptions of Paul
and the apostles as they went tothese places, believing that
through general revelation Godhad already been revealed and
there was going to be the gospel.
Seeds planted could grow in anyculture, in a sense empowered
by the Spirit, and emergelooking like that culture.
(27:07):
Those are the assumptions thatwe went around the world with
and I think that, as we look attoday, what we see happening is
those same assumptions that whenthe gospel is planted in any
culture, though it mayhistorically have nothing to do
minimally with Christianity, itcan grow because the roots of
(27:27):
the expansion of the church are,in a sense, founded in the
movement of the Holy Spirit.
Brian Stiller (27:39):
What do you learn from the growth of the church
in those areas?
What can we in the West receivefrom them, as the church grows
with such rapidity?
Byron Klaus (27:48):
I think one of the first things we learn about,
particularly we who are in afairly secure situation, is we
can learn about the reality ofthe vibrancy of Christianity in
the middle of suffering, in themiddle of totalitarian regimes,
in the middle of, you know,aggression and violence.
That the church can thrive,that God is with us in the midst
(28:12):
of difficult situations, in themidst of poverty.
He is our provider when thereis no medical care, he is our
healer.
Those are the kinds of thingsthat we can learn.
We have become way too securein the human resources we have
accessible to us that we haven'trelied on the Spirit to us,
(28:38):
that we haven't relied on theSpirit.
And we need to learn from thesechurches in the global South,
many of whom live in those kindsof circumstances, that without
God's provision, they havenothing.
Without God's protection,they're toast.
Okay, so that's the first thingwe learn.
We learn the church andsuffering.
We need to learn that big timebecause they can teach us a lot.
I think another piece is thatthe kinds of themes, culturally,
(29:03):
that they're part of theirhistory and their life and their
society, are things that theSpirit of God can speak to, are
things that the Spirit of Godcan speak to that.
You know, as Roland Allen saidand looked at the Book of Acts,
that the Spirit of God emergedin all kinds of cultural
settings and we need to allow itto do so.
And while it can be informed bythe established church from the
(29:28):
West, we need to look at theincipient versions of these
Christian movements and not lookat them as merely oh, these
children, when they grow upthey'll really be vibrant.
They're vibrant from the get-go.
They need undergirding forsustaining over a period of time
(29:58):
, but they are vibrant fromtheir births and I think that we
need to again understand thatwe have not learned all there is
theologically.
We don't have it all down, okay, we can't live in our secure
ivory towers and look at thesemovements as nice little, you
know, sort of children in theirexuberance.
Oh, they'll sort of grow up oneday and realize the truth.
Brian Stiller (30:18):
Well, they're growing up and they're expanding
and they understand the meaningof what it means to follow
Jesus in ways we have forgotten125 years later, byron, you've
got a mature Pentecostalmovement at least mature by 125
years, Right, but you havevarious spinoffs that we see
(30:42):
emerging in various ways, oftenwithin political rhetoric.
You see this not only in Canadaand the US, but you see it in
places of Brazil and Zambia andHungary and wherever else you go
.
What are the lessons we'relearning of the Pentecostal
(31:03):
movement, its core and itsmessage by which it enables the
church, and the kind of spinoffsthat may, for some of us,
create some concern?
Byron Klaus (31:16):
Yeah, for me, the spinoffs have to do with what I
would call Achilles heels thatare part of our movement.
I think we have to face theseAchilles heels.
I think one of the Achillesheels is that we value what the
sociologist Max Weber called thecharismatic leader, that is, we
(31:41):
call them pioneers.
Okay, that is a person who hasa strong voice, an appealing
capability of communication thatseems to offer a message that
is needed at the time tocounteract cultural influences,
(32:01):
and people look at that leaderand say this person speaks for
God.
That is an Achilles heel in thePentecostal movement.
I don't think we're the onlyones that have that Achilles
heel, but we have had it in asubstantial way over the years.
I think that many of thesemovements that have emerged that
are siphoning off energy dospeak to this Achilles heel that
(32:26):
we have, which is a propensityto listen to a person we think
has been sent from God.
Okay, and that is thischarismatic leader.
And charismatic leaders areobviously visible, capable,
communicate very, very well,have a message that resonates
with people.
But they also create movementsbecause people vicariously live
(32:51):
through them and experience thevibrancy of spiritual faith
through these people.
And I think if I were to saythere is one Achilles heel,
that's the Achilles heel.
Brian Stiller (33:03):
So we look onto the future, and you've been a
head of a seminary for a numberof years.
You've trained pastors andmissional leaders.
What would you have to say to ayoung Byron Claus today that's
emerging in their 20s or early30s?
Byron Klaus (33:23):
I would want, first of all, to caution them on
being overconfident, because wehave so many human resources at
our availability.
We've got technology, we've gotsocial media, we've got all
(33:44):
these things, these things thathuman beings can manipulate for
initiatives, whether it beeconomic or spiritual or
whatever.
So I would caution it overconfidence.
I would also suggest a humility, a humility about one's own
(34:05):
capacity to, in a sense, dosomething that nobody else has
ever done.
One of the things that I findinteresting about a lot of
younger leaders today is theyactually believe that the things
they're thinking have neverbeen thought of before.
Okay, and I would suggest thatmaking friends of people
cross-generationally, thatthere's a real strength in
(34:29):
having perspective on folks whohave lived a few lives and can
say I heard that song 50 yearsago and it was in a different
key, but it's the same songbeing sung right now.
I think there's a I would buildif I was a young person.
(34:49):
I want to build into leadershipwith a strong base of people
who I learn to trust.
I would want to find a team ofpeople my own age and older than
me who can walk with me througha journey of emerging
(35:12):
leadership.
A journey of emergingleadership.
Obviously, I think that strongtheological training is really
important.
I don't think that one can justsort of have natural capacity.
You know you could be a good,you know salesman in any
industry and therefore youcommunicate well and you can be
(35:33):
a church leader.
I think that you have to havestrong theological roots.
So I think that those twothings building a long-term
relationship hub that can keepyou over a long period of time
in the ups and downs ofleadership, and strong
theological training are the twothings that I'd really want to
(35:54):
encourage a younger version ofme to pursue.
Brian Stiller (35:59):
Byron, it's been wonderful having you today on
Evangelical 360.
And again let me just thank youfor the decades of service you
have given to the church here inNorth America and globally and
wishing you God's best as youcontinue, especially in your
global activities, serving theLord in ways that I guess you
(36:22):
and I years ago never thoughtwould be possible.
Byron Klaus (36:27):
Yeah well, thank you, Brian.
A great opportunity to be withyou on Evangelical 360.
And, like you, I look back atour times together and who would
have thought it that we wouldbe at this point in our lives
today?
And thank God for hisgraciousness and his blessing on
our lives.
Brian Stiller (36:46):
Thank you, byron, for joining us today and
helping us understand the globaland generational impact of the
Pentecostal movement, and thankyou for being a part of the
podcast.
Be sure to share this podcast.
Use hashtag Evangelical360 andjoin the conversation on YouTube
.
If you'd like to learn moreabout today's guest, check the
(37:10):
show notes for links and info,and if you haven't already
received my free e-book andnewsletter, go to
brianstillercom.
Thanks again, until next time.
Don't miss the next interview.
Be sure to subscribe toEvangelical 360 on YouTube.
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm your host, brian Stiller,and I'm pleased to share with
you another conversation that Ihave with leaders, changemakers
and influencers those who impactChristian life around the world
.
Makers and influencers thosewho impact Christian life around
the world We'd love for you tobe a part of the podcast by
sharing this episode, usehashtag Evangelical360, and join
(00:38):
the conversation on YouTube inthe comments below.
My guest today is the Rev DrByron Claus, a Pentecostal
pastor, scholar, leader ofinternational mission and former
president of the Assemblies ofGod Theological Seminary in
Springfield, missouri.
For 16 years as seminarypresident, byron mentored and
influenced the next generationof Pentecostal pastors and
leaders.
He's a widely respected voicein the Pentecostal movement and
(01:01):
I'm so grateful that he's heretoday with us to talk about the
history of that movement and theglobal impact this next
generation will have.
Byron Claus, so good to haveyou on Evangelical 360 today.
Byron Klaus (01:21):
Well, it's a wonderful opportunity to be with
you, Brian .
Brian Stiller (01:26):
Well, it's a wonderful opportunity to be with
you, Byron.
We became friends as we weremutually responsible for
seminaries you in Springfield,missouri, and me in Toronto and
we became friends as we weremanaging these enterprises,
which was a challenge at best.
But in preparing for today, Ihad forgotten that I had written
the foreword to your book.
(01:47):
Here's what I wrote as a fellowPentecostal from Canada, I long
for someone within the AmericanPentecostal world to write
honestly and prophetically aboutthis world movement that began
in the US.
I say that you're a section onAmerican spirituality.
I say that you're a section onAmerican spirituality.
You don't let us get away with asmugness that rests on the past
(02:08):
, notwithstanding the Americanchurch's community remarkable
growth and influence.
I said this about this bookthat you wrote.
Instead, he calls us up short,pressing us to consider the
depths of today's spirituality.
Not driven by nostalgia, hisheart yearns to ensure that the
ongoing life of the church isrooted in Christ and his spirit.
(02:31):
One thing I learned about you,byron, is that you have a candor
that is surprising and a bitshocking at times, but so
refreshing.
And so today, as we talk aboutthe Pentecostal movement
globally, but so refreshing.
And so today, as we talk aboutthe Pentecostal movement
globally, I have a real interestin hearing from you as we think
(02:51):
about the past and the presentand the future of this global
movement that you and I havebeen a part of and have had
responsibility and leadership.
And so today, as we begin, Ithink it would be good to go
back and refresh our minds as towhat the Pentecostal movement
is and how it emerged in the USand globally.
(03:18):
Give us a thumbnail sketch ofthat
Byron Klaus (03:20):
beginning of the 20th century is something that
has really its foundation inseveral movements that occur in
the 19th century.
I think the roots really comefrom John Wesley and in the 19th
century you see both theholiness and Keswick movements
(03:41):
developing and the thing that ina sense develops there is this
desire for a deeper life withthe Lord, that there is this
desire to have a deeper life.
The Keswick movement was adeeper life movement and what
happens at that point is withthe holiness movement, the
(04:02):
Keswick movement, there's amovement towards a second
experience, a subsequentexperience to salvation, a
desire to go deeper, to be morefervent, and those movements
really are what I calltheological winds and they are
the fuel for combustion pointsthat occur late 19th, early 20th
(04:28):
century.
So you have a world that is influx.
You have a world that ischanging and the impact of the
revolution is changing.
There's a lot of immigrationgoing on, particularly to North
America, there's people comingfrom particularly Europe, and it
all comes together and thereare combustion points, and the
(04:50):
major one that gets most of thestory is the combustion point at
Azusa Street in April 1906 inLos Angeles, while that is the
most storied of these combustionpoints for all of this
spiritual fervor that's going on.
There are a lot of tributariesand as we move ourselves away
(05:11):
like 125 years now from thatperiod, we see that there are
other little tributaries.
And those little tributaries,you know, have to do, for
instance, with the immigrantmovements.
Much of the story of earlyPentecostalism is around
immigrant movements in the USand in Canada and they're around
Germans and Scandinavians andPolish and Romanians and
(05:36):
Italians, and they have theirown stories, as well as
African-American and BlackCanadians have their own stories
.
So I like to talk about thefuel, which is largely the
Holiness Movement, the KeswickMovement, and then combustion
points that probably have to domore with God's sovereignty.
(05:58):
That just sort of sparks all ofthe things that are happening
during that period of time,sparks all of the things that
are happening during that periodof time.
So that's sort of thebackground of the immersion of
the Pentecostal movement as weknow it today.
Brian Stiller (06:11):
And what were the factors in America that were
particularly important inshaping or in giving direction
to the Pentecostal movement inthe US?
Byron Klaus (06:21):
Well, you know, I think it would certainly those
the Keswick movement, thisdeeper life movement, the
holiness movement, which wasfocused on sanctification and
dynamic moments in people'slives.
This isn't just sort of youooze into this experience.
There are flashpoints, you havethese crisis moments, and I
(06:43):
think that the place that thisemerges is among what we might
call the marginalized, thedisenfranchised, the people who
lived at the edges of society.
The people who were initiallyimpacted by this were people who
had been left by the wayside ofthe road and they had no place
else to go, and they found inthis encounter with God a
(07:04):
clarification in theirrelationship with Jesus Christ,
an empowerment to, in a sense,give them hope in the middle of
their hopelessness.
Brian Stiller (07:13):
That really is a key factor in how it emerged in
North America and, you know, inmy case here in the United
States know, in my case here inthe United States that happened
within the larger context ofProtestantism, where you have
Wesleyanism or Methodism and youhave other mainline churches
(07:34):
that were going through its owntheological shift within the
20th century, and did thatgenerate a kind of a
fundamentalism in thePentecostal movement?
Or how did they respond to this, to the shifting of the old
line Protestant churches?
Byron Klaus (07:52):
Because their experience, you know this is Jim
Crow era and so the experienceof Pentecostals was viewed
through this racial lens.
Okay, so the emotionalism, theemotion, you know, the sheer
emotion of Pentecostalism wasmet by what we might call the
(08:13):
established church as being.
The LA Times called itNegroisms.
Okay, it was dismissed assimply an expression of quote,
unquote Negro religion.
And so, as a whole, thePentecostal movement, whether it
was black or white or whateverit was, was dismissed largely by
(08:34):
the established church at thatparticular time.
So anytime you are dismissed asan aborition by an established
group, are dismissed as anaberration by an established
group, you sort of rally thetroops around yourselves and you
in a sense become your ownenemy.
You got to gain identity fromsomething and they sort of
separated themselves from theinfluence of the larger
(08:57):
established church and sort ofbecame an enclave of their own.
They were pretty isolated.
Brian Stiller (09:02):
And how did they respond to the growing
theological liberalism of theold line churches?
Byron Klaus (09:10):
Yeah, they were definitely on the side of the
authority of Scripture and whatwe might at that time call the
fundamentalist side.
I mean they were people of theword.
There was no doubt about theauthority of Scripture.
You know, there was no doubtabout the authority of Scripture
.
You know.
For me, though, those thingsweren't conceptual battles.
For example, growing up in aPentecostal church back in the
(09:32):
mid-20th century, I remember myfather.
Before he would preach everysermon, we would sing a song,
and the song would say the Biblestands, though the hills may
tumble, it will firmly stand.
When the earth shall crumble, Iwill plant my feet on its firm
foundation, for the Bible stands, though the hills may tumble,
it will firmly stand.
When the earth shall crumble, Iwill plant my feet on its firm
(09:53):
foundation, for the Bible stands.
So that isn't theological jargon, but that is in a sense a
stance that the Bible isauthoritative, it speaks to our
lives today,
Brian Stiller (10:07):
and that particular stance almost raised
it.
In my experience.
It raised it above this debatebetween conservatism and
liberalism.
It was almost within our church.
That was a non-issue.
Byron Klaus (10:15):
Non-issue, non issue.
The authority of Scripture was.
You know, you believed it.
It spoke to your life.
It spoke to you in the middleof your life.
The narratives of Scripturespoke to you.
You identified with the peoplein Scripture the challenges they
faced.
You faced too, and that was itsauthority.
Brian Stiller (10:35):
But it seems that there was a an important
influence within, I guess, everyreligious movement, but within
the Pentecostals personalitiesthat rose to the surface.
So I think of Amy SempleMcPherson.
She was a Canadian who wentdown there, started out as a
Salvation Army lass and emergedas this major voice within
(11:00):
America.
What other kind of voices wereimportant to the development of
the Pentecostals in the US?
Byron Klaus (11:08):
I think as a general rule, pentecostals have
always been attracted to strongvoices.
We can call them pioneers, wecan call them entrepreneurs, we
can call them early adopters,but there's always been strong
voices okay, strong voices thathave typified and been responded
(11:32):
to in the Pentecostal movement.
That is true across the boardand you know, obviously I think
Amy Semple McPherson is anexample of a voice that had
broad appeal across NorthAmerica and certainly in the
United States.
I don't think that there'sreally a person that might be
(11:53):
typified as strong as Amy SempleMcPherson that emerged, but
there were always strong voicesand pioneering prophetic voices
that people responded to.
Why?
Because they saw them as sentfrom God and people who spoke to
their needs in their particularsituation.
Brian Stiller (12:11):
But you do have this bifurcation within the
evangelical world.
You have your standardevangelical community and then
the Pentecostals, and we wereseen as evangelical outliers.
How did that message of theSpirit become more ubiquitous,
influencing those churches thatinitially would reject the
(12:34):
essential Pentecostal message?
Byron Klaus (12:37):
Well, you know, I think that's a long story that
is certainly still playingitself out today.
And you know, I think that backin the mid-40s in the United
States, when mid-1940s, when theNational Association of
Evangelicals sort of emerged, inthat the Sempsons of God was
there right at the beginning andwe had strong through the
(13:01):
mid-20thth century, strongpresence in the National
Association of Evangelicals atsome point I don't know if it's
true today, but we were thelargest constituent group in the
National Association ofEvangelicals and while that, on
the official sort of theofficialness of things, we were
part of that movement, there wasthere, always has been, this
tension between the enthusiasmof Pentecostals, particularly
(13:25):
around spiritual gifts, healingmanifestations, that has kept us
being viewed as sort of thecrazy cousin in the family and
that's still present.
But I think as we move into thelatter part of the 20th century
and we get into the charismaticmovement and then we get into
the third wave of this awakeningthat occurred at the beginning
(13:49):
of the century, we see a muchmore oozing of our themes into
the larger spheres ofevangelicalism.
So it's been a long process.
I think the tensions are stillthere and I can, even as an old
(14:13):
guy, I can walk into a room ofevangelicals and identify myself
as Pentecostal and people sortof raise their eyebrows and
wonder can this guy actuallyread and has he got any degrees?
I mean, can this guy actuallyread and you know, has he got
any degrees?
I mean, that still is present.
Brian Stiller (14:25):
We have gone through major religious shifts
secular, decreased churchattendance right across North
America.
What does the PentecostalChurch face today?
What does the PentecostalChurch face today?
I noticed in the latest pollthat the Assemblies of God has
(14:46):
maintained her numbers over thelast few years, while most
churches have diminished intheir numbers.
And so, given that, what arethe issues that the Assemblies
of God, as the major Pentecostalchurch in the US, what is it
facing today?
Byron Klaus (15:00):
You know I can only speak for.
You know the church I'mordained in, the Assemblies of
God.
We're actually the secondlargest group in the US.
The largest group is primarilyAfrican-American Church of God
and Christ.
We're about 3 million ininheritance.
Church of God and Christ isabout 6 million, so I can't
speak for them.
However, I think that, as, shallwe say, a movement that came
(15:24):
out of what you might call anawakening.
Anytime you get generationsaway from the flashpoint, the
combustion point, things justchange.
We can look at the naturalprogression of any movement.
It moves away from its initialvibrancy to structures that are
(15:55):
created to support that vibrancy, and then the structures
themselves become what wesupport.
That is certainly the case inour movement.
However, I think there are twothings that have maintained what
seems to be an anomaly in thechurch today in America, and
that is we continue to growslowly, and I think there's
several things.
Number one you know we are over40% people of color and we are
(16:19):
pushing 40 plus percent.
That are about 40% people under35 years old.
We have been involved withpeople who have immigrated to
the United States.
The truth is that the immigrantpopulations that are a part of
the summits of God do keep usrevitalized and do add to our
(16:41):
numbers, and the fact that wehave been across the board, been
able to attract young peoplewith a 40% adherent population
at, you know, under 35 years old, that's pretty good.
And so we've been able to.
We've met those challenges andhave continued growing because
of those, have continued growingbecause of those.
(17:06):
I think you know the sort ofbifurcated world that we live in
today.
People are always wantingstatements to be made by
officials, by congregationalleaders, by national leaders.
You know what is the church'sstance on these things, and I
think that there is no doubtthat we have been historically
apolitical.
That has changed over the years.
(17:28):
For instance, the Assemblies ofGod historically was a pacifist
organization and you know thatobviously is not a primary DNA
of our organization today, dnaof our organization today.
There is no doubt that theculture has impacted us.
(17:52):
We have resisted in some casesand we have capitulated in
others, and I think that thekinds of issues gender identity,
all these kinds of issues thatare overwhelming us, kinds of
issues that are overwhelming uswe have a strong background, you
know, a part of our DNA is aholiness background, and so
there has been a resistance tothese kinds of intrusions on the
same but at the same point,because we have resisted those,
(18:16):
we have isolated ourselves andnot engaged those things in a
meaningful way.
We have simply said that'swrong or we shouldn't be part of
that, and that's not a strategyover the long haul,
particularly when you're dealingwith younger people who are
influenced by things that theirparents were not influenced by.
(18:37):
So I would say we're struggling.
In all those areas.
We have certainly made clearstatements.
You know, when it comes toimmigration, when it comes to
racism, when it comes to genderidentity, we have strong
statements on those things.
However, when you get to thecongregational level, it's a
(18:58):
mixed bag and I think that thenumbers would tell us that at
times we affirm thingsofficially but question them
unofficially at the grassrootslevel.
So I would not be saying thatwe have resisted all of the
cultural intrusions into ourlife at all.
(19:19):
We have been impacted just likeany other organization.
Brian Stiller (19:23):
And, over the last few years, the culture wars
that seem to be marked by thepolitical divide.
Surely that must have an impacton both the nature of the
church, its witness, and itstheology of the church, its
(19:46):
witness and its theology.
Byron Klaus (19:47):
We struggle like any other group.
I'm conflicted in this area.
I see in many cases leadersidentifying themselves with
political movements andpolitical leadership, and I'm
deeply concerned about that.
As I get older, I must admit toyou that I'm becoming
increasingly apolitical, that Ihave deep, deep concerns for the
(20:11):
poor, for the needy, for thebypassed in life, but I am
increasingly wary of all voicesin the political world because I
just think that we truly are,we're citizens of heaven and
we're here to represent thekingdom of God, and I'm not sure
(20:32):
that any political vision comesanywhere close to the kinds of
priorities that exist in thekingdom of God.
And so we are facing thepolitical forces that all too
often have in a sense capturedour hearts, and that's true of
(20:52):
my organization as well asothers our hearts, and that's
true of my organization as wellas others.
Brian Stiller (20:57):
Is there anything particularly about the
Pentecostal ethos, its message,its formulation that allows it
to do something or not dosomething?
Given the political divide andthe issues that seem to grind
away at the American people Ihear, without listing all the
(21:20):
social political issues andpersonalities that are part of
your scene do Pentecostalstraditionally stay outside of
making any kind of socialstatement that might be shaped
by a biblical worldview, or arethey just?
Are they pacifist as it relatesto the social political world
(21:41):
as well?
Byron Klaus (21:42):
I think our holiness background has kept us
from what I would call arigorous engagement with social
issues.
You know I grew up on.
You know, come apart and beseparate, sayeth the Lord.
Issues you know I grew up on,you know, come apart and be
separate, saith the Lord.
And so we just sort of workedour way.
We kept, we kept clear of thosekinds of things.
However, I'll give you anexample.
(22:03):
You know, when you have 40percent plus of your adherents
being people of color and themajority of that group being
Hispanic, and obviously that isan immigrant group coming to the
United States, you have to getinvolved because many of the
people who attend our churchesare undocumented.
(22:26):
So you get drawn into thesekinds of things.
And when you don't have a longhistory of engaging the public
square with deep theologicalthought, sometimes your
responses are hit and miss.
Ok, they're not as strong asthey might be.
I mean, we're not, we're not theCatholic Church and have this,
(22:50):
you know, couple thousand yearsof public policy dealing with
things.
We don't have that.
We have been largely the folksthat on the other side of the
tracks who have been fodder forevery populist movement that
comes along and we don't dealwith things well, but we're
doing better.
Okay, and I think, particularlyaround the immigration issue,
(23:12):
we have made some very strongstatements about our commitment
to those who have been bypassedby the world, and I think that
we are.
We are coming along on genderidentity issues, but we don't
have a strong history andtherefore our responses at times
are a mixed bag.
(23:33):
Therefore, our responses attimes are a mixed bag and we
don't have a lot of articulatevoices.
Brian Stiller (23:41):
A growing number, but not a lot of articulate
voices.
Byron, let's shift to the globe.
You suggested in one of yourarticles that the Pentecostal
message is a message thattravels.
That travels well, it seems, asthe Pentecostal message has
(24:02):
given energy to the largerevangelical movement.
This message has gone global,so that today the global South,
as we call it Africa, latinAmerica and Asia seems to be the
center of the growth ofChristianity.
Byron Klaus (24:20):
Harvey Cox, the Harvard theologian, in 1993
wrote a book entitled Fire fromHeaven, and in that book he made
a prediction, and that was that21st century Christianity would
thrive in the global South andit would be largely Pentecostal
charismatic.
I think he's correct in that Ifwe I mean right now Pentecostal
(24:43):
charismatic movement is thelargest component of
Protestantism, and I think thatthe reality is is that where the
gospel is most resisted andleast accessible is the place
that the church is most vibranttoday, and that is in the global
South.
So the predictions of Cox backin 1993 have absolutely become,
(25:06):
you know, reality and it'sdocumented in data.
So there's no doubt that.
And the phrase that I used inone of those books was a phrase
I borrowed from Harvey Cox,which he called Pentecostalism,
(25:26):
a religion made to travel.
That in fact it was a seed thatcould be planted in any culture
and emerge with vibrancy.
Brian Stiller (25:36):
And why do you think that was or is?
Byron Klaus (25:39):
Well, I think that early Pentecostal missionaries
who went around the world andyou know the way I view
Pentecostal history is throughthe lens I mean my organization,
the Assemblies of God.
My denomination is, you know,not quite 3 million in the
United States but 80 millionworldwide we made a commitment
(26:00):
in 1914 as an organization tothe greatest evangelism the
world has ever seen.
So when you look at, the oneway to look at Pentecostalism is
that it has been essentially amission society.
And so we have gone around theworld.
And one of the things that weaffirmed in those early years
was written by an early Anglicanmissionary who was prominent at
(26:26):
that time but viewed as anoutlier by the Anglican church.
His name was Roland Allen and hewrote.
One of the books he wrote wascalled the Spontaneous Expansion
of the Church and in short, itbasically said that the gospel
inherently could grow on its ownwhen planted.
(26:46):
He looked at the book of Actsand saw the assumptions of Paul
and the apostles as they went tothese places, believing that
through general revelation Godhad already been revealed and
there was going to be the gospel.
Seeds planted could grow in anyculture, in a sense empowered
by the Spirit, and emergelooking like that culture.
(27:07):
Those are the assumptions thatwe went around the world with
and I think that, as we look attoday, what we see happening is
those same assumptions that whenthe gospel is planted in any
culture, though it mayhistorically have nothing to do
minimally with Christianity, itcan grow because the roots of
(27:27):
the expansion of the church are,in a sense, founded in the
movement of the Holy Spirit.
Brian Stiller (27:39):
What do you learn from the growth of the church
in those areas?
What can we in the West receivefrom them, as the church grows
with such rapidity?
Byron Klaus (27:48):
I think one of the first things we learn about,
particularly we who are in afairly secure situation, is we
can learn about the reality ofthe vibrancy of Christianity in
the middle of suffering, in themiddle of totalitarian regimes,
in the middle of, you know,aggression and violence.
That the church can thrive,that God is with us in the midst
(28:12):
of difficult situations, in themidst of poverty.
He is our provider when thereis no medical care, he is our
healer.
Those are the kinds of thingsthat we can learn.
We have become way too securein the human resources we have
accessible to us that we haven'trelied on the Spirit to us,
(28:38):
that we haven't relied on theSpirit.
And we need to learn from thesechurches in the global South,
many of whom live in those kindsof circumstances, that without
God's provision, they havenothing.
Without God's protection,they're toast.
Okay, so that's the first thingwe learn.
We learn the church andsuffering.
We need to learn that big timebecause they can teach us a lot.
I think another piece is thatthe kinds of themes, culturally,
(29:03):
that they're part of theirhistory and their life and their
society, are things that theSpirit of God can speak to, are
things that the Spirit of Godcan speak to that.
You know, as Roland Allen saidand looked at the Book of Acts,
that the Spirit of God emergedin all kinds of cultural
settings and we need to allow itto do so.
And while it can be informed bythe established church from the
(29:28):
West, we need to look at theincipient versions of these
Christian movements and not lookat them as merely oh, these
children, when they grow upthey'll really be vibrant.
They're vibrant from the get-go.
They need undergirding forsustaining over a period of time
(29:58):
, but they are vibrant fromtheir births and I think that we
need to again understand thatwe have not learned all there is
theologically.
We don't have it all down, okay, we can't live in our secure
ivory towers and look at thesemovements as nice little, you
know, sort of children in theirexuberance.
Oh, they'll sort of grow up oneday and realize the truth.
Brian Stiller (30:18):
Well, they're growing up and they're expanding
and they understand the meaningof what it means to follow
Jesus in ways we have forgotten125 years later, byron, you've
got a mature Pentecostalmovement at least mature by 125
years, Right, but you havevarious spinoffs that we see
(30:42):
emerging in various ways, oftenwithin political rhetoric.
You see this not only in Canadaand the US, but you see it in
places of Brazil and Zambia andHungary and wherever else you go
.
What are the lessons we'relearning of the Pentecostal
(31:03):
movement, its core and itsmessage by which it enables the
church, and the kind of spinoffsthat may, for some of us,
create some concern?
Byron Klaus (31:16):
Yeah, for me, the spinoffs have to do with what I
would call Achilles heels thatare part of our movement.
I think we have to face theseAchilles heels.
I think one of the Achillesheels is that we value what the
sociologist Max Weber called thecharismatic leader, that is, we
(31:41):
call them pioneers.
Okay, that is a person who hasa strong voice, an appealing
capability of communication thatseems to offer a message that
is needed at the time tocounteract cultural influences,
(32:01):
and people look at that leaderand say this person speaks for
God.
That is an Achilles heel in thePentecostal movement.
I don't think we're the onlyones that have that Achilles
heel, but we have had it in asubstantial way over the years.
I think that many of thesemovements that have emerged that
are siphoning off energy dospeak to this Achilles heel that
(32:26):
we have, which is a propensityto listen to a person we think
has been sent from God.
Okay, and that is thischarismatic leader.
And charismatic leaders areobviously visible, capable,
communicate very, very well,have a message that resonates
with people.
But they also create movementsbecause people vicariously live
(32:51):
through them and experience thevibrancy of spiritual faith
through these people.
And I think if I were to saythere is one Achilles heel,
that's the Achilles heel.
Brian Stiller (33:03):
So we look onto the future, and you've been a
head of a seminary for a numberof years.
You've trained pastors andmissional leaders.
What would you have to say to ayoung Byron Claus today that's
emerging in their 20s or early30s?
Byron Klaus (33:23):
I would want, first of all, to caution them on
being overconfident, because wehave so many human resources at
our availability.
We've got technology, we've gotsocial media, we've got all
(33:44):
these things, these things thathuman beings can manipulate for
initiatives, whether it beeconomic or spiritual or
whatever.
So I would caution it overconfidence.
I would also suggest a humility, a humility about one's own
(34:05):
capacity to, in a sense, dosomething that nobody else has
ever done.
One of the things that I findinteresting about a lot of
younger leaders today is theyactually believe that the things
they're thinking have neverbeen thought of before.
Okay, and I would suggest thatmaking friends of people
cross-generationally, thatthere's a real strength in
(34:29):
having perspective on folks whohave lived a few lives and can
say I heard that song 50 yearsago and it was in a different
key, but it's the same songbeing sung right now.
I think there's a I would buildif I was a young person.
(34:49):
I want to build into leadershipwith a strong base of people
who I learn to trust.
I would want to find a team ofpeople my own age and older than
me who can walk with me througha journey of emerging
(35:12):
leadership.
A journey of emergingleadership.
Obviously, I think that strongtheological training is really
important.
I don't think that one can justsort of have natural capacity.
You know you could be a good,you know salesman in any
industry and therefore youcommunicate well and you can be
(35:33):
a church leader.
I think that you have to havestrong theological roots.
So I think that those twothings building a long-term
relationship hub that can keepyou over a long period of time
in the ups and downs ofleadership, and strong
theological training are the twothings that I'd really want to
(35:54):
encourage a younger version ofme to pursue.
Brian Stiller (35:59):
Byron, it's been wonderful having you today on
Evangelical 360.
And again let me just thank youfor the decades of service you
have given to the church here inNorth America and globally and
wishing you God's best as youcontinue, especially in your
global activities, serving theLord in ways that I guess you
(36:22):
and I years ago never thoughtwould be possible.
Byron Klaus (36:27):
Yeah well, thank you, Brian.
A great opportunity to be withyou on Evangelical 360.
And, like you, I look back atour times together and who would
have thought it that we wouldbe at this point in our lives
today?
And thank God for hisgraciousness and his blessing on
our lives.
Brian Stiller (36:46):
Thank you, byron, for joining us today and
helping us understand the globaland generational impact of the
Pentecostal movement, and thankyou for being a part of the
podcast.
Be sure to share this podcast.
Use hashtag Evangelical360 andjoin the conversation on YouTube
.
If you'd like to learn moreabout today's guest, check the
(37:10):
show notes for links and info,and if you haven't already
received my free e-book andnewsletter, go to
brianstillercom.
Thanks again, until next time.
Don't miss the next interview.
Be sure to subscribe toEvangelical 360 on YouTube.
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