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August 15, 2025 47 mins

When Michael Van Pelt and his colleague Ray Pennings founded Cardus twenty-five years ago, they had a revolutionary insight: politics follows culture, not the other way around. Starting with just $42,000, this Canadian Christian think-tank has grown into an $8 million organization that's become one of North America's most respected policy voices—all while maintaining an explicitly faith-based perspective in one of the world's most secular societies.

Van Pelt reveals the secret to their unlikely success: being "Christian, credible, and public." Rather than retreating from secular spaces or compromising their beliefs, Cardus researchers bring rigorous scholarship and a posture of hospitality to their work on issues ranging from family policy to medical ethics. This approach has earned them a place at the table in mainstream media and policy circles that traditionally exclude religious voices.

Drawing from both Reformed theology and broader Christian traditions, the organization navigates the delicate balance between prophetic witness and constructive engagement. Their work on controversial topics like Canada's medical assistance in dying legislation exemplifies how biblical principles can provide innovative frameworks for addressing contemporary challenges. As Van Pelt explains, "Even in cultural decline, even in an environment where you're sometimes seeing really troublesome animosity, there's that little yearning that just never can go away."

The conversation explores how Christians should respond to changing cultural landscapes, including the rise of Christian nationalism in the United States and increasing secularization in Canada. Van Pelt suggests that in today's "Daniel in Babylon moment," believers must work respectfully within existing systems while maintaining clear theological foundations. This approach allows space for genuine pluralism without abandoning truth claims.

For those wrestling with how faith can meaningfully engage public life, Van Pelt's journey from 12-year-old political activist to think-tank leader offers a compelling alternative to both religious withdrawal and culture war mentalities. In a time of societal anxiety and purposelessness, he sees unprecedented opportunity for Christian witness—not through imposing belief, but by demonstrating how the gospel brings flourishing to institutions, communities, and individual lives. 

You can learn more about the Cardus Institute through their website, Facebook and Instagram.

And you can share this episode using hashtag #Evangelical360 and join the conversation online! 

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brian Stiller (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm your host, brian Stiller,and I'm pleased to share with
you another conversation withleaders, changemakers and
influencers impacting Christianlife around the world.
My guest today is Michael VanPelt, ceo of the Cardus
Institute, a Canadian-basednon-partisan Christian think

(00:30):
tank.
The mission of Cardus is toclarify and strengthen the ways
our society's institutions canwork together for the common
good.
At a time when many religiousinstitutions are increasingly
suspect of seeking to controlcivil life and impose their
faith on society, the work ofCurtis and Michael Van Pelt

(00:51):
stands apart as a reputable,inspiring and innovative
alternative, a model ofevangelical mission and witness
in a secular age.
So listen in and join theconversation on YouTube in the
comments below, and be sure tosubscribe and share this episode
using hashtag Evangelical360.

(01:12):
Michael Van Pelt, welcome toEvangelical360.

Michael Van Pelt (01:18):
It's so good to be here A wonderful spring
day.
Nothing like having aconversation with Brian Stiller.
It's an honor.

Brian Stiller (01:24):
But I got to ask you this question, Michael.
In a secular country likeCanada, what in the world gave
you any idea that developing areligious voice in the public
square had any chance of success?

Michael Van Pelt (01:43):
Good question.
We struggled with this questionalready now 25 years ago.
My colleague a little bit of abackstory, brian my colleague
Ray Pennings and I both had comeout of very active political
lives front lines, hammering upsigns, working in partisan
environments and over time, aswe got older, just realized that
being able to, the ability tobe effective as a Christian in

(02:07):
the public arena, needed morethan just the partisan and the
political dynamic.
And it was really thisunderstanding at that time, more
intuitive than anything else,that politics actually follows
culture and not the reverse,culture and not the reverse.
And that got us thinking how dowe build, or should we build,
an institution that is framed alittle bit differently than just

(02:28):
being in the political, directpolitical partisan arena?
And that really was the startof what CARDUS is today.
And the idea in the beginningwas to be Christian, credible
and public.
And what do I mean by that?
Really, what it is to be meanChristian.
We are deeply Christian,basically rooted our thinking in
the word and in the history ofthe church.

(02:50):
That's number one.
Credible was basically thisidea that we had to hold to the
scrutiny of those who evendisagreed with us passionately.
So the research had to be topnotch.
Our academics had to be thebest we could find.
And then public.
We were not just talking toourselves, not just talking to a
Christian community.
We wanted a broader spectrum ofleaders to hear what we had to

(03:13):
say and to realize that theChristian tradition just has
something good to offer.
Our debates of today, that'sreally what it was debates of
today.

Brian Stiller (03:27):
That's really what it was.
I hear a story of a 12-year-oldboy who stands in a political
meeting and mouths off about theimportance of Christian
education and gets a standingovation.
Does that bear some semblance?

Michael Van Pelt (03:37):
You know, in one way, brian, you should have
never brought that up.
In one way that inspired me asa young man and my colleague Ray
had, I think, similarexperiences this kind of passion
, right from this time, of agrowing young man realizing that
there actually was a public,realizing that the decisions in
public had impacts on ourcommunity lives as well.

(04:00):
That said, though, the idea ofa 12-year-old getting a standing
ovation isn't good for buildinga 12-year-old man's ego.
And you know what?
Maybe my mother should havejust given me a little kind of
slap on the head and sit down,young man, I'm not sure what
would have been the betterchoice.

Brian Stiller (04:17):
But, Michael, you must have described the home
environment that would even giveyou the inkling that such a
thing was not only possible butcould be done.

Michael Van Pelt (04:32):
Yeah, that's maybe a bit of a tougher
question because the traditionthat I come from I come from the
Dutch immigrant tradition camein the 1950s Very religious,
very conservative in ourthinking.
Both my father and mother werenot educated.
I think my mother had grade 10.
But here's the interestingthing.
That I think was the animatorto me.

(04:53):
My mother is a very pious woman.
She's deeply in the word andsomehow and I still wonder about
this today, many, many yearslater somehow that occupation
with the Word of God somehowgave my mother the ability to
kind of understand my musingsabout Kierkegaard or Nietzsche

(05:16):
or St Thomas Aquinas or theancients or the politics of the
day.
Her responses had a gentlewisdom to them and she was
always a gentle encourager inthat space.
My father was more theentrepreneur let's make things
happen, let's get up and dosomething.
Today my mother was the gentleadvisor and, lord willing, I

(05:40):
carry some of those gifts intotoday.
Oftentimes I don't.
We're broken people as I am,but that's really the history
and I see it as God's gift ofprovidence.
I really do, brian, to be nowleading a think tank 25 years
later with a budget of 8 millionand 40 staff and 40 senior

(06:01):
fellows, I don't know what youthink about this, brian, but
it's a pretty unlikely idea, ina highly secularized Canadian
space, to build a think tankthat's deeply Christian in its
orientation.
I wonder about how that works.

Brian Stiller (06:19):
Well, it seems to me that your starting place as
your Dutch Reformed community,which is very much schooled in
Abraham Kuyper's ideas of churchand culture, that was an
important starting point and itseems to me that it's really

(06:42):
shaped Cardus and what the thinktank does.
Am I right?
And if I am, can you give us abackground and descriptor of
that?

Michael Van Pelt (06:54):
It's interesting to see that
development Because, yes,kuyper's idea late 19th, early
20th century prime minister ofthe Netherlands, but he was a
great thinker and his idea wasthat Jesus Christ has lordship
over all of the earth, not justover our own individual hearts
and our own character anddemeanor, but over all of the

(07:17):
institutions of society.
And we as Christians need tohave a responsibility to build
those institutions in the nameof Jesus Christ.
This is not a triumphalistickind of idea, it's a service
idea that Christians can beinvolved in day-to-day work
environments or day-to-dayeducational environments.
That was an inspiration Tiethat to, let's say, a Francis

(07:40):
Schaeffer Tie that to even youmight remember.
Remember Chuck Colson's book howNow Shall we Live.
Picking up on FrancisSchaeffer's work earlier work,
chuck Colson's book how NowShall we Live was really rooted
in kind of that historicthinking, kuyper, and of the

(08:00):
Dutch reform traditions and thenmany since then.
Many evangelicals both inCanada and the United States
have lived into that idea and Ithink it's grown in a much more
positive way into the largerchurch environment of North
America.
That's been a good thing.

Brian Stiller (08:17):
There's a distinction here.
So you have, if you can usekind of the polarities, if you
can use kind of the polarities,you have the more Wesleyan,
Armenian view of spiritualitythat Christ is really about
saving the person and preparingus for eternity.
And then you've got theReformed view that all of life

(08:38):
is the Lord's and the gospelshould engage in every part of
the culture.
So you've got those twodiffering views of the witness
of the gospel and culture Isthat fair.

Michael Van Pelt (08:52):
It's interesting because I kind of go
back to my mother on this,because my mother would argue
and would say to me, michael, ifthe way you experience your
experiential life of knowingJesus Christ and how he guides
you as Lord over you and Lordover all you do, is an essential
element, is a key element foryou to have any kind of

(09:14):
permission to be in leadershipin a public arena.
So see how she tied thosereally in some ways those two
ideas together.
But I do think that if you goto the fundamental of Cardas and
this is not only resident inreform thinking, it's also
resident in kind of Catholicsocial thought traditions as

(09:35):
well that the idea of ourChristian faith speaks not just
to our individual hearts, notjust to even our family
structures, but to the broaderinstitutions of society.
And it was interesting you sentme this note kind of just as
preparation for this.
It got me thinking about reallywhat is our right as, or our

(09:57):
obligation, as responsibility asChristians to be in the public
space.
And I've been musing on thisover the last number of days in
kind of preparation and in somewaysing on this over the last
number of days in kind ofpreparation and in some ways
it's really just this simpleexpression of the two greatest
commandments love God and loveyour neighbor.
And then, you know, brian andMichael get involved in this
conversation.

(10:17):
What does it mean, michael, orwhat does it mean Brian, to love
your neighbor?
Does that just mean anindividual relationship from one
to another?
Does that mean being involvedin social organizations that
help others?
Does that mean being involvedin institutions that have deep
care for the poor?
And does that even involvemeaning being involved in

(10:40):
political institutions that formhow we actually govern
ourselves together?
Those are really kind ofcritical questions, and ones
that I think are as salienttoday as they were when I was
the young man at age 12.

Brian Stiller (10:54):
But the Christian Reformed vision of the gospel
and culture has brought Cardusinto being in a more deliberate
way than, say, the broaderevangelical community would
inspire.
So your inspiration out of thatChristian reform view is pretty

(11:16):
deliberate, is it not?

Michael Van Pelt (11:18):
I think in the early days, yes, for sure, but
I think as time developed.
So think about that in 2000.
That was definitely ananimating gift that we had an
understanding about howChristians can live in public
life.
But over time that just growsand develops.
Today Cardus is as reliant onCatholic social thought as it is

(11:39):
on some of the historicthinking around in the Anglican
traditions and in theevangelical traditions as well.
The evangelical tradition hasalready a growing, very activist
life and increasingly theevangelical traditions are
building the kind ofintellectual capital that, let's
say, 100 years ago it never had.

(12:01):
So those worlds are changingdramatically over time and I'm
delighted that Cardus in someways represents so many
different Christian traditionstoday.
But the heart of it is a deepunderstanding of who we are as
created in the image of God, adeep understanding of what
Christians and how they ought toplay in public institutions and

(12:24):
a commitment that Jesus Christis Lord over all of these
institutions, even in a secularspace.

Brian Stiller (12:30):
Michael, I want to come back to the specifics of
Cardus and what you do, howyou're organized and what
strategies you have in place.
But just this very conversationis taking place during a time
when here in North America wehave the American community,
many of those who are rooted inthe vision that their country

(12:53):
was always Christian andtherefore should be Christian,
taking on a particular kind ofalmost super-Cyperian view that
not only should the gospelinform the culture but the
gospel should rule the culture.
So you've got that as, Isuppose, a bit of a competing
paradigm to the very thingyou've just described.

(13:15):
Can you comment?
on that.

Michael Van Pelt (13:18):
Yeah, I think it's a great question.
You know sometimes when youtake ideas and you just extend
them so far that the actualheart of the idea gets lost.
So you know you can run intothe challenges of Christian
nationalism.
I think if you look on the USside, compared, let's say, to
the Canadian side, theexpression of the evangelical

(13:40):
tradition at least, is theevangelical experiment in the
United States is much more tiedto the nation state, is much
more tied to the Americanproject.
There are some beautiful thingsabout that, but there's also
some risks to that, that youactually confuse the vibrancy

(14:01):
and the character of the nationstate as a political order with
the very kingdom of God whichscripture teaches us to be very
cautious about.
When we understand the kingdomof God for sure, christ died and
Christ arose and Christ willreturn again.
He has conquered all and hiskingdom is coming.
But we often forget the hereand the not yet and I think

(14:24):
sometimes in our politicalorientations or ideologies or
even expressions we're a littlebit more kind of like thinking
we can bring kind of the newheavens back into our moment and
wipe sin away and all will begood, tying the Christian faith
and the Christian tradition sotightly to the nation-state or

(14:46):
to the American project cancause significant trouble, and I
think that is one of thechallenges of evangelicalism in
the United States.
However, you have theweaknesses on the Canadian side,
where you've oftentimes beentempted to completely create
binaries where religiousexpression really has no entry
or opportunity to influence thenation state or the decisions of

(15:10):
government.
That's also a troubled order aswell, so finding that balance
is absolutely critical.

Brian Stiller (15:17):
Okay, let's come back to Cardus as a think tank.
It's resident here in Canadaand you have offices in the US,
but it's more of a think tank.
It's resident here in Canadaand you have offices in the US,
but it's more of a globalenterprise, is it not?

Michael Van Pelt (15:30):
The heart of our day-to-day life at Cardus is
a Canadian life, so that couldbe practical public policy work.
So, for example, as a thinktank think about a typical think
tank more known in the UnitedStates and Canada but we're
doing lots of research on childcare issues of the day.
We are one of the leadingthinkers on the very troubling

(15:52):
trend of medical assistance indying in Canada.
It's frightening what'shappening in Canada on that file
.
We could be doing verypractical research and public
policy work on gambling.
Be doing very practicalresearch and public policy work
on gambling.
So many of those very importantsalient issues, public policy
issues of the day.
We have teams who are workingon them and embedding our ideas

(16:13):
into the public conversation andmaking sure that we are
contesting some of the moredifficult trends that you're
seeing in society.
On the US side, our commentmagazine, led by Ann Snyder,
who's our editor-in-chief, ismore read in the United States
than it is in Canada.
It's very prominent in theUnited States.
And then, second of all, we areone of the lead North American

(16:35):
researchers on Christianeducation.
So we have done verysignificant work through the
Cardus Education Survey on thestate of Christian education in
the United States.
Looking at graduate outcomes,it's fascinating.
Ten years ago there was asimple kind of recognition or
idea or assumption that thosewho attended Christian schools

(16:57):
would be bigoted, would besocially divisive, were not
contributors to society.
Over time we've simply proventhrough good research and
through good public engagementthat that's simply not the case,
and it shows that graduates ofChristian education are actually
significant contributors to ourpublic life.
So that's an example of usdoing work in Canada and in the

(17:19):
United States.
It's interesting, though you mayremember just the debates on
assisted suicide in the UnitedKingdom just a couple months ago
.
For a period of time, myresearcher colleagues were being
called every other day.
You know Canada has alreadyadvanced in this area, which is
a troubling scene in our country.
What do we do in the UnitedKingdom?

(17:40):
This is a way for us to be ableto offer some of our work in a
much broader internationalcontext as well.
But the day-to-day life ofCardas is a Canadian life and
there is just you know, you knowthis better than anyone, brian
there's just so much work to dothere and there are so many
opportunities.
It's a troubled, troubled time,but underneath that troubled

(18:04):
time there is a yearning andthere is an anxiousness for
something, and people can onlylive without purpose for so long
Given the kind of the culturalassumption that secularity is
the preferred way in Canada.

Brian Stiller (18:21):
How have you been able to wedge your way into the
conversation on issues, onpublic policy, on trends?
What's been your avenue ofentrance?

Michael Van Pelt (18:36):
That's a really good question.
I would put it in maybe threeways.
Number one is posture, numbertwo is perspective and number
three is quality.
And what I mean by posture iswe've committed at Cardus.
We are always, we are going tolive a life of hospitality.
One of our taglines is webelieve in a hopeful future, and
that needs to show up in myface.

(18:57):
I need to look at Brian and heneeds to see that I actually do
believe in a hopeful future.
That also plays out in terms ofhow we are hospitable to even
those who disagree with us.
So CARDIS is constantlywelcoming those who disagree
with what our public policypositions are into our spaces
and having conversations.

(19:17):
So, number one, if you want towork at CARDIS, you need to be
hospitable, you need to lovethose who disagree with you.
That's number one.
Number two is there's justnumerous ways where the biblical
narrative has so manyinnovative ways of approaching
public policy.
So, for example, if you look atchild care, today we have a

(19:39):
national child care program thatis so much focused on what
government can actually do andis oftentimes forgets that the
heart of child care has to bethe child number one and has to
be rooted in how God createdfamilies to care for children.
So those biblical kind ofdirectives can oftentimes today
have really innovative andcreative ways of making

(20:02):
suggestions about how to dochild care from a public policy
point of view very different.
The final thing is we have tobe the best we can be.
You have to have qualityresearch and, I think, curtis,
over a period of time, by reallycommitting to having the best
thinkers, the best academics.
I often talk we need academicswho can talk to normal human

(20:25):
beings.
That's not an easy thing, brian, as you well know, but we've
got to find them and they've gotto withstand the scrutiny of
those who disagree, of asecularized market.
And I think over time, withGod's providential care, we have
been able to communicate andgain the reputation and

(20:46):
confidence of those who evendisagree with us, which then
gets you into a space where youcan actually have true public
dialogue which then gets youinto a space where you can
actually have true publicdialogue.

Brian Stiller (21:03):
In that plurality of views, you have an operating
pluralism whereby the very manyviews are seen as legitimate.
How do you, as a Christianthink tank, land on what you put
forward without being taken inby others?
People are concerned thatpluralism allows everything to

(21:23):
be true and if everything istrue, nothing is really true.

Michael Van Pelt (21:27):
That's a really good question, brian, and
we debate that question.
Let me, in some ways, we debatethat question with this kind of
approach what is our moment?
What is our cultural momentthat we're in today?
And let's talk specificallyabout Canada, and we would all
agree that Canada has developedto the point where it's not only

(21:48):
a highly secularized society,it's a post-secular culture that
in many ways has a completeamnesia about what it is that
the Christian tradition andChristian beliefs can offer
people's lives day to day andcan offer institutions.
Today, oftentimes we talk aboutare we a prophet in Israel or

(22:11):
are we Daniel in Babylon?
What is our moment today?
I'd love to know what you thinkabout that Right now.
We think our moment today is alittle bit more of the Daniel in
Babylon moment, and what doesthat actually mean?
That actually means that youneed to take your ideas, be
respectful of the cultural andgovernance dynamics of which you

(22:35):
work in and try to change themfrom that inside out perspective
rather than imposing them insome ideal way of how we would
love to see society organized.
It's more judgment and wisdomthat you need at this time.
But yes, let's be clear, thereare many who can interpret our

(22:58):
pluralistic moment as asuperficial or kind of casually
said a wishy-washy kind ofmoment.
You can think this and you canthink that this is where both
the Word of God and the historyof the Christian church can set
you on a very, very strongpattern.
When you have a theologicalunderstanding or biblical

(23:19):
understanding of who we are ashumans, created in the image of
God, that will consistentlyinform you on, let's say, a
particular policy idea likemedical assistance and dying.
It's interesting.
I'm even observing, within theChristian community, significant
compromise on this issue and Iwonder if it is rooted in a lack

(23:44):
of a deep understanding aboutthe nature of suffering and the
nature of who we are as imagebearers of God and what our
responsibilities are to eachother and how to grow old and
how to die.
Naturally, all of thosequestions deep, deep, in some
ways theological, many waysbiblical questions.
If you can't hold on to thosewith an integrity, I promise you

(24:09):
, eventually you'll not hold onto a practical public policy
position of saying, and reallywith a prophetic voice today,
that assisted suicide and thepath that our Canadian
government has gone on, assistedsuicide, is going to cause deep
, deep trouble for our countryand it will.

Brian Stiller (24:30):
Let's use that as a, as a a test case, as, if you
like.
What?
What are the constituentfactors in the Canadian culture?
It's its life, its publicpolicy and so forth.
What has brought it about tothe place where this medical
assistance assistance in dyinghas became, became such a

(24:55):
favored initiative of government?
And of course it's producing anunforeseen number of deaths.
But what brought that about?

Michael Van Pelt (25:05):
Yeah, that's a really interesting kind of like
.
Let's parse out history and tryto kind of get to this point of
what got us here and in someways, in a charitable way I
would put it to amnesia.
Basically, we over time justassumed ourselves to be a
Christian country, or largely acountry, that's Christian,

(25:27):
largely influenced, and we are.
The gift of rule of law, eventoday, is a gift of a
Judeo-Christian tradition.
Let's not forget that.
But over time our ownindividual commitments, our own
familial commitments, our ownchurch commitments, our broader
institutional commitments, lostthe heart of what it is the

(25:47):
gospel, lost the heart of whoJesus Christ is as Lord and
Savior, lord over all of theworld, including of our
decisions as countries as wegrow in a secular mindset.
I oftentimes hear if I couldjust do a sidebar on this when I
speak to many across thecountry they're angry at the

(26:08):
government, and rightly so.
But I often say be careful, itmay be your neighbor, that's the
problem, which is sometimes asubtle way for me saying be
careful, you may be the problem.
So we've allowed a certain kindof cultural milieu to happen
that has removed ourselves, thathas created a very significant

(26:32):
distance from the understanding,the deep understanding and gift
of the Christian tradition andfrom the day-to-day direction of
Scripture to the point where acertain kind of leadership and
you can see it in some of theresearch that we've done with
the Angus Reid Institute that acertain kind of leadership
there's.
Let's say, maybe just for onthe kind of far spectrum there's

(26:55):
a significant amount of playerswho are pretty antagonistic to
religion.
And when some of those playersare given opportunity for
leadership in our public lifeand they understand the human
person very differently than youand I might understand the
person when they see utilitymore important than being in the

(27:19):
image of God, when they want tofight against suffering at all
costs to the real, authenticChristian experience of
brokenness and renewal, then youhave all of a sudden a control
issue.
And if that community iscontrolling our public life as
in this particular case it isthen you will get a legislative

(27:44):
and in this case, on medicalassistance in dying, you had a
judicial decision and then youhad legislative decisions and
then all kinds of regulatoryenvironments that essentially
allowed us ridiculous andtroublesome flexibility on this
issue.
To the point, if I would maybetake a more troubled point on
this, my colleague Ray Pennings,our co-founder has often said

(28:07):
to me Michael, assisted suicideor MAID is not just about MAID.
It is a change in our wholeunderstanding of how we care for
one another.
It is a change that the minuteyou, let's say Brian, walk into
a healthcare center or ahospital, the calculus becomes a

(28:28):
little bit different.
And that cultural mindset is aninsidious one, because all of a
sudden you've lost who Brian isin the eyes of God and you
start to see Brian as framed inthe utility that he provides.

(28:48):
And that's where and you canview that on many, many issues,
but this is the heart of thatissue and you can view that on
many, many issues, but this isthe heart of that issue when you
get the wrong leadership, whenyou allow institutions to have
that kind of secular commitment,over time, it's going to have
those consequences.
That's why we, as people offaith, need to be humbly active

(29:13):
in public life every day, nomatter what the consequences are
and no matter what theinfluence we might have.
There is a fundamental baselineof obedience that puts us there
, and it may be in a propheticvoice.
It also may be in a momentwhere we actually do have
leadership and actually caninfluence legislation and legal
direction and judicial direction.

Brian Stiller (29:32):
Michael, how do you choose what issue to deal
with?
Is there a grid?
Is there a litmus test?
On what basis do you say we'regoing to focus on that?
We aren't going to focus onthat.

Michael Van Pelt (29:45):
That's sometimes a really difficult
question that we have a lot ofdebate in internally at Cardus.
So there's a couple of ways ofapproaching it.
Number one you can say what arethe main issues of our public
life today, what are the mostsalient issues?
What is a deepest concern Inthis case?
If you take medical assistancein dying, that would be a really
, really good example of anissue that's in the moment and

(30:07):
needs to be tackled and youreally have no choice about it.
Here's another one.
You know, I don't know if youwatch hockey, but if you watch
hockey, then you're watchingonline gambling and it's just
become everywhere.
So there's that issue of themoment where we at Cardis need
to go hold on a sec here.
Let's look at the consequencessociety and, quite frankly, a

(30:33):
government being willing to openup online gambling to, in some
ways, the most vulnerable in oursociety the rise of gambling
for young men is deeplyconcerning.
So those are two examples wherethey're in the public space and
you have to tackle them rightoff.

(30:53):
Another way of looking at thisis going what are the most
central kind of institutions ofsociety that we need to be
thinking about that influenceour day-to-day lives?
So, for example, we have a veryactive Cardas family file.
You know marriage isn't the endthing to talk about nowadays,
but guess what Cardas is doing?
We're doing the leadingresearch on marriage and I go to

(31:18):
my colleagues at TARDIS Familyjust stick with this, because
the institution of marriage isfundamental to the ordering of
society, even if you are notChristian.
So we will stick to thatresearch area, no matter what
Childcare.
So you have this whole familiar, all the questions around
fertility, big questions todaythat's centered around a
fundamental institution calledfamily.

(31:39):
Another example would beeducation.
If you dig deep into scripture,you will very quickly learn
that as parents we are the firsteducators.
Teachers teach in localparentis, the in the place of
the parent, and the christiantradition has been well known
for developing some of the mostremarkable educational

(32:01):
institutions in the in the world.
So that kind of institutionaround education is fundamental
for us to be researching about,to be trying to influence
society about and to repair whathas been broken in these spaces
.
So those are two structuralexamples and then two very
practical day-to-day examples.

(32:22):
And you have to be carefulabout how you resource these.
If you spend too much time inthe day-to-day moment, before
you know it.
You're going to be a politicalorganization fighting for the
moment, but you need to be abigger thinker than that.
You need to frame theintellectual community that will
really give rise to change.

Brian Stiller (32:42):
And where does the transgender issue fit within
those choices?

Michael Van Pelt (32:48):
Yeah, this is an interesting one.
We haven't done a lot ofspecific research on this file.
In fact, I think that the wholekind of trending on
transgenderism, thanks to someof the incidences in the UK, for
example, are kind of on thedownward on this.
But let's go back up the bus toa deeper understanding of who
we are as family and who we areas persons, created in the image

(33:09):
of God, the basic understandingof marriage and the
relationship of male to femaleand what our responsibilities
are from a reproductive point ofview.
That's the foundation.
Then after that we have tochoose which issues are we going
to tackle?
And this particular one ontransgenderism we haven't
tackled directly.
Our biggest priority has beenaround marriage has been around

(33:32):
child care has been aroundfertility as well

Brian Stiller (33:35):
how do you evaluate your success?
or is there a?
Is success even a legitimateword as an influencer?

Michael Van Pelt (33:46):
I think it is.
I think it is.
I think we need to beaccountable for the resources
that many patrons from overcanada and the united States put
to Cardis and the amount oftime and effort so many in the
Cardis community put toward ourwork.
So there needs to be anaccountability and you can say
how does that turn and measureinto success.

(34:07):
Here's the caution of this.
It is my view that we are inboth a moment of kind of
cultural decline and what do Imean by that?
If I would use an example, Ithink the consequences of the
1960s sexual and culturalrevolution are playing

(34:27):
themselves out and they arebringing trouble along the way
and we can't think that thereare not consequences to all
those, that collection ofdecisions that we've made over
decades on this file.
We will pay a price for that.
So in some ways you're going tosee cultural decline.
In some ways you're going tosee political decisions that are

(34:47):
even more troubling.
I think that's the broadercontext.
That said, I think there areall kinds of seeds of renewal if
you're willing to look for them.
But on a more practical basis,are we doing credible enough
research that mainstream mediaoutlets and alternative media
outlets are willing to hear wasengaging with two leading

(35:13):
economists on TVO here inOntario, one of the most
respected kind of public policycommentators in all of Ontario.
That would be a measurement ofsuccess.
Why were they willing andinterested in hearing from
Cardas, knowing Cardas thinksfrom a Christian perspective?
The reason is is because we hadgood ideas.

(35:34):
The reason is is because weknew how to make credible,
credible arguments in thesalient discussions, in the
debates of today.
So that would be a measurementof success.
Another practical measurementof success is can you attract,
over a long period of time, acommunity of philanthropists
that are committed to culturaland political renewal in this

(35:56):
country?
I spent most of my timetraveling across Canada, both
encouraging business leaders andcivil society leaders to say we
need, as Christians and as aChristian community, to be
leaning into our public life,not moving away from our public
life.
And you know what, brian?

(36:17):
You've done public life a lotlonger than I have and I have no
idea how many times you mayhave gone home and said I'm done
, I'm tired out, I'm finishedwith public life.
But you have to wake up in themorning and Brian Stiller says
to himself no, that's not whatGod has called me to do, I need

(36:38):
to be in public life.
So there's that animating forcethat I've seen in you for many,
many years and you know whatPeople like me need to model
that and our team needs to modelthat.
You know, in a spiritual way, Icall that just simply obedience
.
We have to be obedient to Godand it's nice here and there to
have some successes to spur onthe obedience, that's for sure.

Brian Stiller (37:03):
One evening I was doing a CBC debate with someone
on some issue.
This was some years ago and Idrove to downtown Toronto, to
the CBC headquarters, did thedebate, drove home and I knew my
dear mother would be watching.
So I called her on my way homeand eventually said Mother, did

(37:29):
you see the program?
Yes, brian, I saw it.
What did you think, mother?
There was no commentforthcoming, so I had to pry it
loose.
What do you think, mother?
Silence.
And then these words, brian, Ididn't hear much of Jesus in it

(37:53):
and what she was really sayingwas that I was a little bit
confrontational.
There wasn't much gentleness inmy voice.
So I learned I hadaccountability at multi-levels
and my mother assured me thatthe Spirit of Christ needed to
be there in full measure or ifnot, she would catch it.

Michael Van Pelt (38:16):
Oh, this is great.
Thanks a lot, brian.
Does that mean now I have to doa similar confession?
Isn't it interesting?
Because there's no doubtsometime that when you look at
our public life it creates ananger.
I've struggled with that manytimes and I've listened.
You just want to say, hey, likewake up, this is not going to

(38:41):
go in the right direction.
And sometimes the way that I'vekind of struggled through this,
and even the way I observeothers and look to hire people
and, in my role as CEO, look tolead other people, is can you
exchange anger for sadness andI'm not saying there's not a

(39:03):
role sometime for anger at theinjustices of the world?
Scripture has many examples ofgodly men in Scripture being
angry about the injustice of theworld and the sin in the eyes
of God.
So I'm not dismissing that.
But when I meet people that areliving in more anger and
bitterness than I am, than theyare in sadness, then I get a

(39:27):
little hesitant and I go okay,michael, be careful.
That's that's.
Is that the posture that willbe both God honoring and, quite
frankly, be accessible at that?
And that's not an easy judgment, that's not an easy judgment
call.
We struggle with that all thetime at Cardus and you know,

(39:48):
sometimes you do run intosituations where there's an
animosity that does get yourkind of backup and we're broken
and sinful people as well.
I will listen, I will remember,remember the model of your
mother speaking to you.
Brian, I will share that withmy colleagues at a staff meeting
next week.

Brian Stiller (40:06):
How are you funded?
I mean, this is the expenditureof your academics, of your
researcher, of your publicpolicy initiatives.
This is a costly venture.
How do you fund it?

Michael Van Pelt (40:18):
There's two ways of looking at this.
We have about an $8 millionbudget on an annual basis.
Interestingly, 25 years agowhen I started, there was
$42,000 in the bank, so I haveno idea how that $8 million
comes every year, brian, but ifyou had to parse it out, we have
thousands of thousands ofsupporters and many of those

(40:40):
supporters are what we wouldcall gifts.
They could range from $50 to$500.
And there is a group of what Icall Christian philanthropists
who have committed themselves tohaving influence in our public
life and many of them ownbusinesses.

(41:01):
Many of them may have capitalwealth from previous families or
many of them steward others'wealth, wealth from others.
They're the ones who are themajor funders, probably fund 90%
of the class of Cardas.
That model is not dissimilarfrom literally the majority of

(41:22):
think tanks all across NorthAmerica.
We don't experience it thatmuch in Canada.
Canada doesn't have a vibrantthink tank space and think tank,
being kind of in between theacademic world and the political
world, is sitting in thatmiddle space there of influence.
Cardiff is in a bit of ananomaly that way and, quite
frankly, we need a lot morepeople of faith and institutions

(41:46):
, and there are some really,really good ones in Canada.
Don't get me wrong, but we'redisproportionately weaker on
this front, and that's partlybeen governments in Canada have
been much more activehistorically in public policy
development, and that needs tochange, and organizations like
CARDUS need to be contributingin this space, and there needs

(42:06):
to be a lot more of us.

Brian Stiller (42:09):
Michael, you're celebrating your 25th
anniversary.
It's a good moment to givepause to reflection of the past.
But what do you anticipate?
What's your vision of thecoming years?

Michael Van Pelt (42:23):
It's an exciting question to ask.
In the last five years, maybethe last 10 years, it's taken a
long time for CARDUS to buildthe reputation and confidence of
a broader public about the workthat we do, about the research
that we conduct, about thearguments that we make.
And we are now in that spacewhere we are one of the leading

(42:44):
think tanks in Canada, which isa gift, which is a tremendous
gift to be a faith-basedorganization that's deeply
Christian to be one.
If you look at the dollaramounts, leading think tanks in
Canada, if you look at mediaengagement, that kind of thing.
Now the question is how do westeward that?
How do we steward that giftinto the future?
I think number one we have tostick to our knitting.

(43:06):
There are so many issues aroundeducation, around health,
around family that are still thefundamental kind of baseline
issues.
So, for example, we always sayyou can talk economics all day
long, but if you lose basicfamily integrity, if you have
educational weakness, if youcan't provide for health of a

(43:28):
society, you're not going tobuild a productive economic
community.
It's just simple, you know.
Just a simple fact.
So we need to stick to ourknitting on those issues.
It's probably every week thatsomeone is calling us at CARDUS
saying you know what?
We need a Christian voice inthis area.
We need a Christian voice inprisons and criminal reform.

(43:49):
We need a Christian voice inthe environment, or you need to
tackle this issue.
There's where we just need tobe discerning as we grow.
They're largely right.
There are many places that wecan enter into and offer a
robust approach and thoughtfulideas about what it means to be
Christian in that space, andthere's where we need to just be

(44:12):
stewardly with our resourcesand strategic with our judgments
.
One little point to add we areat an interesting cultural
moment.
I've talked about decline and Ihold to that argument, but I
have never seen in all my 25years at Cardus more of a

(44:35):
yearning for a different kind offuture.
The anxiousness that we areseeing in young people, for
example the most recent kind ofexistential crisis about our own
nation state and ourrelationship with the United
States shows a, shows thatanxiousness in the population.

(44:57):
They're struggling with what tolook for in the future.
They're struggling with what agood purpose will be in the
future, and there's where notonly Cardus but many other
Christian organizations, andespecially the church, can play
a really powerful andinvigorating role in our public

(45:18):
life, because we have a purposeand that purpose is not for our
own interest.
That purpose is for the love ofour neighbor.
That purpose is to live livesand build communities that are
vibrant and that are flourishing.
And even in cultural decline,even in an environment where
you're sometimes seeing reallytroublesome animosity, there's

(45:41):
that little yearning that justnever can go away and there's
that desire for a tell us, foran end, for a purpose that you
and I know what that's about.
So that kind of gives me a lotof hope for what a growing
Cardus could look like.
It also gives me hope for whata church can do and for what
individual Christians can do inour public life today.

(46:03):
Brian.

Brian Stiller (46:06):
Michael, we celebrate your 25 years of
service and the work that Cardasis doing, and thank you,
michael, for joining us today onEvangelical 360.

Michael Van Pelt (46:17):
And Brian, thank you for your many, many
years of leadership and yourstatesmanship in our public life
.
You're a model to us all.
Blessings to you.

Brian Stiller (46:26):
Thanks again.
Thanks, michael, for joining ustoday and for taking the time
to respond to some toughquestions about how our faith
can still have an impact onsociety today, and thank you for
being a part of the podcast.
I'd be grateful if you'dsubscribe and share this episode
.
Use hashtag Evangelical360.

(46:48):
If you'd like to learn moreabout today's guest, check the
show notes or description below,and if you haven't already
received my free ebook andnewsletter, just go to
brianstillercom.
So thanks for joining us today,until next time.
Don't miss the next interview.

(47:09):
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