October 3, 2025 • 47 mins
A free meal, a short film and an open chair can change a life. That’s the quiet power behind Alpha, the simple, hospitable format Nicky Gumbel helped steward from a London parish into a global movement—inviting people to explore the meaning of life and the person of Jesus without pressure or pretense.
In this conversation Nicky talks about the early missteps of street evangelism, the moment Alpha “went viral,” and why the small‑group experience often does what a podium can’t: it builds trust, honours questions, and makes space for real encounter. Gumbel also discusses the Alpha retreat weekend, focused on the Holy Spirit, where many participants say their change arrived not through argument but love shown.
This episode might also act as a field guide for leaders. Start with Jesus, not with winning arguments. Trade expertise for authenticity. Host, don’t perform. Serve the people in front of you and trust that joy spreads with friendship. If you care about evangelism, church growth, or simply helping a friend ask better questions, you’ll find practical insight and hopeful stories here.
You can learn more about Nicky Gumbel and the Alpha course through their website, Facebook and Instagram.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
BrianStiller (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm your host, Brian Stiller.
There are times when somethingpresents itself to the world and
we can almost see it aslife-changing.
For me, our guest today hasbrought into our world of faith
a way of introducing people toJesus of Nazareth in ways
(00:30):
unprecedented in the history ofthe church.
Nicky Gumbel helped createAlpha, a simple but profoundly
influential format where peoplecan ask honest questions in
their search for faith.
And who would have predicted inan increased secularizing age
that more and more people areasking the really big questions
(00:54):
of life?
Who am I?
Why am I here?
Where am I going?
Nicky Gumbel both created andnurtured this simple but
impactful ministry in the heartof a radically secular city,
London, England.
Today, literally worldwide,what he learned and then
(01:15):
fashioned has been used in wayswe never would have imagined.
So I'm honored to have him asour guest today.
I will try and ask the questionyou would like to ask if you
were sitting where I am today,and then to probe the underlying
issues that have helped makehis initiative so vital in the
lives of people as theysincerely search for these
(01:37):
probing life-driving issues.
Nicky Gumbel has been pastor ofHoly Brompton Church in London,
England, and director of Alpha.
Here's a podcast I wanted tomake for you, and one I know
will enrich your life.
And thanks to you for being apart of this podcast.
As you listen, would youconsider sharing this episode
(01:58):
with a friend?
And when you do, insert hashtagEvangelical360.
And if you haven't, please hitthe subscribe by joining the
conversation on YouTube in thecomments below.
Now to my guest, Nicky Gumbel.
Nicky Gumbel, thanks forjoining us on Evangelical 360.
NickyGumbel (02:19):
Delighted to be with you, Brian.
BrianStiller (02:21):
Nicky, I was raised during the time when
Billy Graham epitomized publicevangelism.
But I must say that what youhave done with Alpha, you have
revolutionized the wayChristians do public evangelism.
It is simply stunning andremarkable without precedent.
(02:44):
And so having you as a guesttoday on our podcast, I'm so
pleased to inform people andhelp them to understand both who
you are and what led you to dothis and how it's working.
So I guess the best place tostart is Nicky, what prepared
you in lights to take and becomeso pivotal in the strategy of
(03:09):
public evangelism?
NickyGumbel (03:11):
I think it was my own experience growing up.
I growing up, I wasn't broughtup as a Christian.
My father was sort of aHolocaust survivor, really.
I mean, his family, many of hisfamily had died in the
Holocaust in Germany.
And he came to England and was,although he had been baptized
and confirmed, I've recentlydiscovered in 1918, but it was
(03:36):
to assimilate.
And he'd always remained a freethinker, as they said, an
agnostic.
So he he was definitely not achurchgoer.
My mother was not a churchgoereither.
So I didn't have a Christianupbringing in that sense.
But at the age of 18, throughsome friends of mine
encountering Jesus, I read theNew Testament.
(03:58):
And as I read the NewTestament, it was as if the
person of Jesus that I wasreading about almost sort of
emerged from the pages.
And I encountered him.
And that was so life-changing.
Jesus said, I came that youmight have life and life in all
its fullness.
And when I experienced thatrelationship, the that moment
(04:20):
was so life-changing.
I wanted everyone to know.
And I just thought, this is toogood to hold to myself.
It'd be so selfish not to tellpeople.
Because Jesus looking back, Ihad a void that was filled, a
spiritual void.
I wanted to tell people, and II sort of flailed around, I
(04:45):
suppose, because I didn't knowhow to do it.
I just thought it it would beobvious if I said to all my
atheist friends, look, actually,it's true that they believe.
And then I sort of went onevangelism courses, and you had
to go out on the street and witha questionnaire, question one,
what did you have for breakfast?
Question 20, would you like toask Jesus into your life?
(05:07):
And you know, I tried all this,I tried knocking on doors, I
tried, I there was everythingthat I tried street, I did
everything to tell people.
And nothing, I mean,occasionally people came to
faith, but it was very rare.
And then I stumbled on thisthing, Alpha, which was really a
discipleship course, which Iwasn't interested in, but we
(05:28):
found people were coming on itand encountering Jesus, who were
outside the church.
So we we changed it into an acourse for people outside the
church, and then we found thatso many people were coming to
faith, and then other churchesgot interested, spread around
(05:49):
the world, and over 35 millionpeople have done it around the
world.
BrianStiller (05:53):
It's remarkable.
For people who don't know, giveus a thumbnail sketch of what
Alpha is, what it seeks to do,and how it operates.
NickyGumbel (06:02):
We call it an opportunity to explore the
meaning of life.
Yeah, I think everybody issearching for three things.
Everyone's searching for love,everyone's searching for
meaning, and everyone'ssearching to belong.
And at some point, most peopleask the question: is there more
to life than this?
(06:23):
You know, is there more to lifethan just survival, eating, you
know, going to work, retiring,whatever?
Is there more?
Is there an ultimate meaning orpurpose?
And but but the it these kindof questions are very hard to
explore.
With, you know, if you go to afootball match, you can't really
(06:44):
say, well, what do you thinkthe meaning of life is?
Or if you're down the pub, canyou know tell me what you think
the mean?
There isn't really a place forit.
But people really want to doit.
So Alpha is a way to do that ina very low-key, unthreatening,
unpressurized, non-judgmentalatmosphere with a group of
(07:05):
people who are like youexploring.
I suppose it it's not totallydissimilar from AA or you know,
one of the recovery courses, inthe sense that you've got that
you walk into an atmosphere oftotal acceptance and total
non-judgment, and you're allexploring together.
(07:26):
And it's not you're not beingpreached at, you're you're
hearing a talk.
So people come, they have ameal together, which is a way to
connect and make friends, andthen they hear a talk, usually
using a video, and the talks whois Jesus, why did he die?
How can I have faith?
How do I pray?
How can I read the Bible?
(07:47):
Guidance, all these kinds ofthings, the Holy Spirit, how do
I resist evil?
The things that about theChristian faith, about which all
parts of the church are agreed.
So it's run by the PentecostalChurch, the uh Lutherans,
Baptists, Catholics, SalvationArmy, every everybody runs it
because it's the things we agreeabout.
(08:07):
I mean, all Christians believethat Jesus is the Son of God,
that he rose from the dead, thathe died for us.
All Christians believe infaith, all Christians believe in
the Bible, prayer, guidance,etc.
So it's like half an hour ofthat.
And then and then I think oneof the most important things is
that you then have coffee orwhatever, and then you go into
small groups.
(08:28):
And the small groups kind ofpeer-led in a way, because the
hosts and the helpers simply askquestions, usually about
people's experience.
So after the talk on the cross,you know, the question would
be (08:41):
has anybody here ever needed to forgive someone?
And that you know produces areally interesting discussion.
The next question is, hasanybody here ever needed to ask
for forgiveness?
And that's just riveting whenpeople start to talk about some
of the things in their life.
You know, then it's you know,if it's the Bible, has anybody
(09:02):
here ever tried reading theBible or heard the Bible being
read?
Prayer.
Has anybody here ever triedpraying?
You know, how did you get on?
What did you experience?
So a lot of the talk is aboutwhat people have experienced.
Of course, people give theiropinion, that's fine, and there
may be uh it's always veryrespectful.
(09:24):
People say, you know, whenpeople come, they're atheists or
agnostics or from some otherfaith background, and everyone's
very respectful and listens tothem, and we explore together.
Uh it's not the the personleading is called a host because
it's more like a it's it's nota they're not leaders, they're
(09:45):
not teachers, they are justhosts, and the other people are
helpers.
So you have two hosts, twohelpers, eight to ten guests.
And what we found is manypeople who come on the course
would come as agnostics oratheists, and they discover
faith on the course in a verylow-key way.
(10:07):
But equally, some people willcome as an atheist and leave as
an atheist.
And that in a way is kind ofmeans that it's very they know
it's very unpressurized.
And some people, even who areatheists, will come back and
help on the next course becausethey've enjoyed it so much,
they've made friends, and thenoften when they come back and
help, that's when they theyactually come to faith
(10:28):
themselves.
The word opportunity is key.
So it's opportunity for theguests, and it's opportunity for
churches as well.
We never say to churches, youmust run alpha.
If you have a better way, gothat do the better way.
But if you're if you want toreach people outside of the
church, and particularly youngpeople, the average age at HGB
(10:49):
is 27.
Most of the guests are between18 and 35.
Um, and that if you want toreach that group of people with
the good news about Jesus, wefound alpha is one way that
works.
But we don't say you must doit, but if you do want to do it,
okay, we'll run a conference orwe'll give you training so that
you can do it.
(11:09):
And then what happens ischurches start running it.
Now there are tens of thousandsof churches around the world
running it, and then theirneighbors here, oh, you've got
you've grown.
Oh, I was just talking tosomeone today from Scotland who
the church was down to 50 peopleand they started running alpha
and they've grown to 300.
And um, you know, that uhpeople hear about that and they
(11:32):
say, Oh, what is it?
Well, we've been running alpha.
And then I had about a churchin cut in one of the starns
where there it's the mostnon-evangelized place in the
world.
There were something like 0.01%of the population is Christian,
and this church has 500 peoplein it, which is absolutely
(11:53):
massive for them.
And the person who was tellingthe story said, he asked the
pastor, how's this happened?
He said, Well, we've beenrunning alpha.
How many times have you runalpha?
74 times.
Um, and he's grown the largestchurch in whatever it, whatever
star it is.
And then people hear about it,and then so then they want, so
(12:16):
then they'll run a conference.
That kind of church will run aconference to help other
churches in the area.
One for Chinese pastors.
We had three and a halfthousand Chinese pastors coming
to because they'd heard aboutwhat's happening.
And and there's now a Chineseversion.
It's it's a hundred percentChinese, it's Chinese
presenters, testimonies filmedin China, uh directed by someone
(12:40):
Chinese, and we're doing thesame for Africa.
BrianStiller (12:44):
Nicky, remarkable story.
I like to I'd like to cycleback for your reflection on how
this exploded.
I mean, here you are, you're onstaff in a nice Anglican church
in London, and Anglicans aren'tknown for their bombastic
evangelism, but you developedthis nice program.
(13:07):
It sounds very orderly andcreative and innovative and so
forth, but something happened toexplode it to 35 million
attenders.
As you look back on it, whatwas there a pivotal moment?
Was there an idea?
Was there an experience?
Was there a moment when thisreally became something more
(13:29):
than just what a few churchesare doing?
NickyGumbel (13:32):
There have been many, many, many pivotal moments
along the road.
The first one was the firstcourse I was involved in in
October 1990.
Halfway through the course, ayoung man turned up, very good
looking, Cambridge educated,rode for Cambridge, brought by a
(13:54):
friend who said, My friend isnot a Christian, but he's heard
there's some very attractiveyoung women on the course, and
he's come to look around.
Um and he's not gonna stay forthe small group, but he's just
gonna take a look round duringthe talk.
So he introduced me to this guycalled Matthew in the coffee
break, and I introduced Matthewto one of the young women on the
(14:18):
course, and he changed hismind.
He decided he would stay forthe small groups after all.
And he finished the course andhe encountered Jesus and he
invited a lot of his friends onthe next course, and he actually
married my wife's youngersister, so he's now my brother.
Matthew's now mybrother-in-law.
(14:39):
So um, but he brought hisfriends on the next world.
He brought his sister on thenext course, brought several of
his friends.
I had a group made up entirelyof people outside the church.
Uh, they all came to faith,they were all filled with the
Holy Spirit on the weekend away,and they all went on to
positions, pretty much all ofthem went on to positions of
leadership in the church.
And so that was that was theone pivotal moment when we
(15:01):
realized it could be used forpeople outside the church.
And that's when we changed it.
And then it grew to about 300people coming on each course.
It never occurred to me thatother churches didn't have a
course for people outside thechurch that had 300 people
coming.
But I was being rung up byBaptist ministers and Catholic
priests and Anglican ministerssaying, Well, how do you do it?
(15:24):
I spent all my time on thephone explaining how it worked.
I thought, I can't do this.
I'm gonna get them all togetherin one place and tell them.
And uh, to our amazement, athousand people turned up at
this conference.
So I we I told them all, and Ithought that's it.
I've told them now I won't haveto answer any of these phone
calls.
But then they said, Well, couldyou come to Scotland?
Could you come to Hong Kong?
(15:45):
Could you come to Birmingham?
Could you come to Africa?
And then it started to spreadaround the world, and then it
kind of went viral, really.
You know, it didn't, it wasit's now, I think, in every
country in the world, because Iwas doing a conference one time
in India, and the place where wewere staying, someone came up
and said, Oh, I've done Alpha.
(16:06):
And they just introducedthemselves.
They weren't at the conferencein India, they were just staying
in the same place.
And I said, Where did you doit?
And they said, In the FaroeIslands.
So I said, Where are the FaroeIslands?
And they said, Well, they'reowned by Denmark.
So I said, Did you do it inDanish?
No, we did it in Faroese.
So I said, you know, otherchurches in the Faroe Islands
(16:30):
running Alpha?
Yeah, yeah, all the churches inthe Faroe Islands run Alpha.
And so when I got back toLondon, I said, Do we have any
record of Alpha running in theFaroe Islands?
No.
Have we given permission for itbe to be translated to Faroese?
No.
But it's just, you know, whocares?
It it's just gone viral.
(16:50):
And I suspect that meant when Irealized we might have a record
of 178 countries running it,but actually it's it's it's
everywhere.
BrianStiller (16:59):
When and how did you come to understand the work
of the spirit in the drawing toJesus?
Was this a particular moment inyou in your own life, or was it
historic?
Uh, how did that emerge?
NickyGumbel (17:16):
I think with the experience of the Holy Spirit is
absolutely key.
You know, I mentioned earlierthat we all need uh all human
beings, in whatever age,whatever part of the world, are
searching for those three thingsfor love, for meaning, for
purpose, and for belonging.
And I guess of those, the mostimportant is love.
(17:39):
We need to know that we'reloved.
And the heart of the message ofthe gospel and the heart of the
message of Alpha is you areloved.
St.
Paul wrote, the Son of Godloved me and gave himself for
me.
If you, Brian, had been theonly person in the world, Jesus
would have died for you.
(17:59):
That's how much you are loved.
And everyone needs to know thatmessage.
And so that's the message we'reproclaiming, but it's not
enough to know it in your head.
You need to experience God'slove in your heart, and that's
the work of the Holy Spirit.
The love of God, that's God'slove for us, as you know, as a
(18:22):
Pentecostal, is poured into ourhearts by the Holy Spirit, who
has been given to us.
And so we learnt to pray thisprayer, Come, Holy Spirit.
In every service, we never gothrough a service at HDB without
praying, Come, Holy Spirit.
And on Alpha, we introduced,before my time, an a weekend on
(18:44):
the Holy Spirit.
Who is the Holy Spirit?
What does he do?
How can I be filled with theHoly Spirit?
And then we pray, Come, HolySpirit.
And we give people anopportunity to be filled with
the Holy Spirit, to experiencethe love of God.
Sometimes people speak intongues and we talk about uh,
you know, that gift that Paultalks about and was experienced
(19:05):
on the day of Pentecost.
And when we on the question,and now I've read, I've done, I
think I've done 105 alpha smallgroups now, or the one that
we're starting on Tuesday willbe my 105th Alpha Small Group.
And and I've read thousands ofquestionnaires.
And the questionnaire goes,Were you a Christian when you
(19:25):
started the course?
No.
How would you describe yourselfnow?
Christian.
When and how did the changeoccur?
On the Alpha weekend, when Iexperienced the Holy Spirit.
And that's the moment oftransformation.
That's why the disciples weretransformed on the day of
Pentecost.
They were filled with the HolySpirit.
And this is how lives arechanged.
(19:49):
And the thing is, if you ifyou've been filled with the Holy
Spirit, it's not just, youhaven't just assented to say,
well, I am a, I guess if I, youknow, if I if I was tortured,
I'd have to confess I'm aChristian.
It's it's like, this isamazing.
I want to tell my friends.
It's so good.
And that's why I think peoplewhat why it's exploded, because
(20:11):
people have this experience ofGod's love, and they want their
sister to experience.
They want their someone comingon Tuesday night who's 82 years
old.
The guests in our small we'rewe're gonna run it in our home
because uh for 96 courses I Iran it at HDB, but I'm no longer
the pastor there.
Sometimes we run it at ourlocal church, and sometimes we
(20:32):
run it in our home.
And this one we're gonna run inour home.
So one of the guests coming onnext Tuesday is 82 years of age.
Her daughter came about 10years ago.
She was in our small group.
She was then probably 35.
Um, and then during lockdown,her husband came on the course
and he came to faith.
(20:53):
And now she's managed topersuade her 82-year-old mother
to come.
So, but it's because of whatshe experienced, she wanted her
husband to experience it.
Her husband came, heexperienced it.
Now she wants her mother toexperience it.
So it's it's it's friendstelling friends.
That's how it spreads.
BrianStiller (21:13):
Nicky, I understand that early on you
changed one of your earlyprogram or early talks to who is
Jesus.
NickyGumbel (21:21):
Yes.
Well, uh when I took it on, itwas in the it was a course, a
discipleship course for peoplewho had already encountered
Jesus.
So the first talk was, How canI be sure of my faith?
Well, if you're not aChristian, that's not the first
question you ask.
How can I be sure of my faith?
The first question you want toyou ask probably.
(21:43):
So actually the first talk isnow, is there more to life than
this?
It used to be Christianityboring, irrelevant, or an untrue
question mark.
Now it's but it's much the samestructure, but it's basically,
is there more to life than this?
And it's based around Jesussaid, I and the way, the truth,
and the life.
And then the second talk is whois Jesus?
(22:06):
Because that's the startingpoint.
There is no other startingpoint, really, than Jesus.
You know, people said, what Iwould never have come up with
Alpha as an evangelistic course.
That's the that's the it's theprovidence of God.
Because it was because it was acourse designed for people
outside the church, it hadthings like a weekend on the
(22:27):
Holy Spirit, designed for peoplealready in the church, rather.
It had things like a weekend onthe Holy Spirit, an evening on
healing, all these things in it,which we thought, which if I'd
come up with an evangelisticcourse, it would be why does God
allow suffering?
What about other religions?
Is there any evidence for youknow the resurrection?
All this kind of stuff.
(22:48):
And we had that.
We had that course in thechurch.
It was called, I don't know,Agnostics Anonymous or
something.
And there was about 10 peopleon it.
And then we had this course forpeople outside the church for
uh called Alpha, where we weregetting 300 people.
So we realized you you candiscuss, you know, why why does
(23:11):
God allow suffering as a sort ofpre as a sort of evangelistic
thing.
It doesn't get you anywhere,actually, because for some of
the people it probably wasn't anissue.
And for those it was, youhaven't provided a satisfactory
answer.
So it doesn't get you anywhere.
But all the talks on Alpha, ifyou get who Jesus is, that will
(23:34):
change your life.
If you understand that Jesusdied for you, that will change
your life.
If you put your trust in him,the third talk is how can I have
faith?
That will change your life.
If you start praying, that willchange your life.
If you start reading the Bible,that will change your life.
If you experience the HolySpirit, that will change.
They're all they're all onesthat take you take you on.
(23:57):
But the whole inheriting acourse that had talks about
being filled with the Spirit,about speaking in tongues, you
would never do that for forpeople outside the church.
And yet, that was the thing.
And of course, young people noware really searching for in all
kinds of ways.
You know, we live in this worldthat is so unstable.
(24:20):
It's like kind of the world isshaking.
You look what's happening inPoland.
Putin flying drones overPoland.
Europe is in this state oftotal instability.
You look at what's happening inthe Middle East, in Gaza, and
then a bombing of Qatar.
(24:42):
The Middle East is unstable.
Look at the murder of CharlieKirk.
The US is in a state ofinstability.
The world is in a state ofinstability.
And young people are in a stateof instability because of AI,
for example.
They don't know what kind ofjob they're going to have.
Five years ago, you could havehad a job, learn to do coding.
(25:04):
Now they're going to be,there's no one's going to be
needed to do coding becauseit'll all be done by AI.
So the question is, will I havea job?
Will I be able to buy a house?
Young parents, parents arethinking, how am I going to
bring my children up?
How's it work?
There's this total uncertainty.
And so young people eithereither often going in a sort of
(25:27):
into social media and sufferinganxiety and depression and being
very isolated, or they'resaying, I don't want anything to
do with social media.
I don't even want to watch thenews and they're escaping.
Or they're saying, Oh, what amI going to try?
I need enough money.
You know, I I I look at ElonMusk and you think, oh, yes, we
need 400 billion in order tosurvive.
(25:49):
Or you look at, or you go downthe health and fitness, you
know, how can I live forever?
How can I, you know, get down?
They're all these way, or theygo down a spiritual route.
Can I try magic mushrooms oryoga or Buddhism or whatever?
And and actually it'sattractive to them to come and
(26:10):
explore something that issupernatural.
You know, the gift that beingfilled with the spirit,
experiencing the gift oftongues, for example, healing,
these are supernaturalactivities that are very you
know, we they're going after thefull supernatural, and we have
the genuine supernatural.
And if we can introduce them tous, not to a sort of
(26:34):
decaffeinated Christianity or touse a different analogy, uh
introduce them to full fatChristianity, if you like.
The real thing, that's soattractive.
And so I think that's one ofthe reasons people are coming,
because they want somethingthat's that's experiential.
They don't want to just theknowledge is important, of
(26:55):
course, the truth is important,but it's also important to
experience it in your heart, andthat's why the work of the
spirit is so important.
Very long answer.
BrianStiller (27:06):
Whereas you've turned it on its head by
introducing them first to Jesus,not to the apologetic question,
but to Jesus, the apologist,who ultimately provides the
answers.
NickyGumbel (27:19):
Yeah. And by doing it that way.
You can discuss in the smallgroup.
If it comes up in the smallgroup, of course, and it very
often does, you can discuss uhyou and you hear from people
what they have suffered, and youknow, you can just you can talk
about these issues, but cricketis very popular.
And uh it used to be that thatbatsmen were very defensive, you
(27:40):
know, they would just and playan occasional attacking shot.
Now that's all changed, andmost of the shots they play are
attacking, but you still need anoccasional defensive shot.
So Alpha is is basically allattacking shots, with the
occasional defensive shot in thesmall group where you're having
to deal with what aboutsuffering, what about other
(28:01):
religions?
I mean, they're big questions,you know.
There are lots of challenges tofaith, but but you know, if you
hit the who is Jesus, why didhe die?
They're all they all take youforward.
They're all run-scoring shots,if you like.
They're not just defensive.
Um, and no, apologetics is veryimportant, very grateful.
You you've got uh that lovelyguy, uh uh Will Huff, isn't it,
(28:25):
in in Canada, who's doing greatstuff on apologetics.
But uh I'm not saying it's notit's it's all that's all
important, but but on Alpha,we're trying to introduce people
to Jesus.
BrianStiller (28:39):
Nicky, what what are the the basic misconceptions
that people have about Jesusthat you deal with in your alpha
program?
NickyGumbel (28:47):
People are so uninformed.
You know, the generation andthis is a disadvantage, but also
a huge advantage.
Uh young people, most of theyoung people now, their parents
were atheists.
So they are in in ourgeneration, if you weren't
Christian, it was likely thatthere was some Christianity in
your family.
(29:08):
Your mother was a churchgoer,or your aunt was a churchgoer,
or your friends went to church.
Now, they don't have any, theirparents didn't go to church.
Their parents, you know, theirparents tend to be atheist,
agnostic, at most nominal, youknow, Christmas and Easter, but
(29:29):
but they don't have thebackground, and therefore they
don't know anything about Jesus.
They've never really thoughtabout who Jesus is.
Um and so there's a range ofyou, you know, that that he
never existed, or that I guessmost people think he was a good,
good religious teacher like allthe others.
But w what we find is when youdo that, when you have the
(29:51):
discussion about who is Jesus,that most people say things
like, Oh, I don't think he was Idon't think he was the son of
God, I don't think But by the bythe time they come back next
week, it's not a questionanymore.
It's kind of settled in theirmind that there is evidence for
the life, death, andresurrection of Jesus.
It's kind of gone in becauseit's very early on in the
(30:12):
course, they don't want to admitthat they've and you don't want
to push them.
So it's just we we're nevertrying to win an argument in the
small group.
You are very happy to leave itat the end of the evening that
they've all gone away saying wedon't think Jesus is the Son of
God, as long as they come backnext week, because they'll hear
the gospel.
(30:33):
And what we find is that oftenthese things don't, but after a
bit, as the course goes on, eventhough they said the first
week, you know, I don't believeJesus is the Son of God, they
kind of it's kind of sunk inthat there's quite a lot of
evidence, and there's evidencefor the resurrection.
And then they they they listento the talk on the cross, and
(30:56):
it's like, wow, that's that'samazing, the love of God.
And then they to they think, ohyeah.
It's sort of as they as youbegin to reveal the the beauty,
the treasures of the Christianfaith, they're just very
attractive about it.
Yeah, the gospel is very goodnews.
Uh and what we're trying to doon Alpha is present it in a good
(31:20):
way, in a way that's you itthat's not too confrontational,
too not not attract isattractive to people, not just
the message, but the way it'spresented.
It's presented in a very lovingway, it's a very presented in a
very caring way, a personalway, one-to-one, in a group, not
(31:40):
not in it, not I mean, ofcourse, wonderful things can
happen in a crowd.
And as you read the NewTestament, Jesus preached to
crowds, Paul spoke to crowds,all those kind of evangelists is
great.
But you also see in the in theNew Testament the one-to-one,
Jesus with the the woman at thewell or the Philip in the
Ethiopian.
And it's much more like that.
(32:02):
It's much more sort ofpersonal, just encounter and
friendship-based, so that thepeople you're talking to have
become your friends becausethey've revealed their
vulnerabilities when we'rediscussing things like have you
ever had to ask forgiveness?
People become very vulnerable.
And and we think we'll impresspeople by our strength.
(32:23):
Oh, I've got such knowledge ofthe Bible.
The Hebrew says this, the Greeksays this, but actually, you
know, we connect with peoplethrough our vulnerabilities.
And it's much better for thehost to say, Well, I struggle
with that too, actually.
I have my doubts, you know.
Then then you get connection,or I've been through suffering,
you know, I've just had cancer.
(32:45):
Um, you know, I don'tunderstand why God allowed me to
go through cancer, but I stillbelieve in Jesus.
It's real, it's kind ofauthentic.
It's everyone's, we're not sortof setting ourselves up as the
experts and them as the sort ofpupils who come to learn from
us.
It's like we're all humanbeings and we're all on the
journey, and we can learn fromeach other, but this is our
(33:07):
experience, and uh, we foundJesus is does make a difference
in our lives.
And if you're interested, wecan help you.
BrianStiller (33:14):
Dor, the the the kind of the historical timing of
the rise of alpha and your yourinfluence.
I mean, you're in in the UK,which to me is a member of the
Commonwealth, is probably themost secular of all countries.
Um you're at you're at a timewhen secularity as a kind of a
ruling paradigm is dominant inthe culture and church
(33:38):
attendance has fallen off.
And yet you come with up with asimple message message of who
is Jesus, and allowing people tosit around a table for having a
meal and talking to people, andyou simply defy the odds.
You see, you you come upagainst secularity in the most
surprising way.
(33:58):
Uh, as an initiative of thespirit, it just to me it's it's
it's a stunning example of howGod works in life.
In moments and times we don'twe think that the gospel is
dead, the voice has been hasgone silent.
NickyGumbel (34:13):
Yeah, well, I think, I mean, certainly we're
experiencing now in a new way,and this is a, as you know,
quite a new thing.
The last few months, the BibleSociety has done this research
and seen that there's a quietrevival happening in the UK.
And I think there is a return.
I mean, we're seeing itanecdotally in our churches.
(34:35):
At HCB last Sunday, they theyhad real problems at at the 1130
service because this time ofyear it wouldn't normally be
completely full.
But not only was the churchcompletely full, but all the
overflow rooms were completelyfull.
And they virtually had to closethe building because they just
couldn't get everybody in.
And that is now becoming Ihearing this not just in the UK,
(35:00):
but uh in different parts ofthe world.
Something is happening, and Ithink it's interesting.
We have a we have a thingcalled the knowledge, which is
it's my daughter gets.
It's a kind of we havesomething called the week, which
is a written digest of all theall the week's news.
But you couldn't she what shegets is an email, which is again
(35:20):
a synthesis of the news.
And in this week's knowledge,it said, what people are feeling
now in the UK is that there arethree things that are sort of
driving people.
One is about the borders, aboutimmigration, you know, in uh uh
ill unlawful immigration,second is about free speech, and
(35:42):
the third is a return toChristianity.
And that is an extraordinarything.
Admittedly, it's third in thosethings, but it's it's still
there.
And I think it's people maybelooking at other religions and
thinking, is that really what wewant here?
It's people looking at you knowtheir parents, atheism, and
(36:02):
thinking, is that really what wewant?
And so there's there's athere's a real marked change in
the culture here.
And it's it's it's so earlythat it's very hard to know.
Uh but anecdotally, well,there's the research, there's
the evidence of the of the theBible society, but and
(36:25):
anecdotally, it's certainly truethat the churches are
surprisingly people are coming.
Um everyone you talk to issaying, well, we've got all
these young families turning up.
Because I think people aresaying, how do we want to bring
up our children now?
Do we want them to be broughtup with no faith or with one of
the new faiths that are comingto the country?
And I think people increasinglyare saying, actually, let's
(36:49):
have another look atChristianity.
BrianStiller (36:51):
Nicky, I'm interested in how you're
handling all of this.
I mean, here you are, a a youngAnglican vicar in London with a
with a propensity to tellingothers about Jesus, but all of a
sudden, what you have led, whatyour name is synonymous with,
is a revolution in publicwitness of the gospel.
(37:14):
It's is it's uh it's it's akinto Billy Graham.
So what does this do to NickyGumbel as your your
self-identity, your own life?
Uh how has this changed you?
NickyGumbel (37:29):
Well, I think the the thing about alpha is it's
alpha.
It's it's not it's not you knowour old my old vicar was Sandy
Miller, but we never had SandyMiller ministries.
We had HTB, and this is alpha.
It's not that there arehundreds of I I didn't come up
(37:51):
with the idea of alpha.
It was uh Charles Marnum andthen John Irving and then Nicky
Lee.
I inherited it.
So to me, what one time I did aconference in, we did some
conferences in America, and wedid two conferences, and then we
had our summer holiday with ourchildren, and then we did two
(38:11):
more conferences.
And for the summer holiday withour children, uh some very kind
Americans lent us their house,and they said, in the garage is
a sports car, and in that thatsports car, because of its age,
it needs to be driven every day.
Otherwise, when we come back,it's not gonna work.
(38:33):
So please will you drive it?
So I drove this sports car.
It's the only time I've everdriven a sports car, and it was
amazing to drive this sportscar, but I never thought it was
my own.
You know, it's not I don't andan alpha, you know, I inherited
it.
I well, we've had a lot of funwith it.
It's a great joy to drive it,but now there's someone in
(38:57):
China, you know, there's nothingto do with me.
The youth alpha, I'm not in theyouth alpha, that's going
viral, the youth alpha.
I won't be in all these otherones, the the Arabic Alpha or
the, and and even the part thatI'm playing in the in the new
film series, which we juststarted doing yesterday, we
started refilming.
I will do a smaller and smalleramount.
(39:17):
Uh my son Johnny asked me rightat the beginning.
This would have been about 19.
We did the first the first filmseries in 1994, and then we did
another one in 1998.
And about in 1998, when hewould have been about 16, he
said to me, Dad, will you alwaysbe the one who does who's doing
(39:43):
the videos?
And of course, it was a very Imean he knew exactly what he was
asking.
He was pointing out to me thatif Alpha was going to survive,
it wouldn't always be me.
I was just doing ittemporarily, and that's what it
is.
I've been I it's been a massiveprivilege to be involved, but
it doesn't belong to me.
(40:04):
It's other people who get whoare increasingly leading it.
Around the world, there arehundreds of thousands of people
already involved in leading thecourses.
And I'm privileged to have apart to play in it, but I've
never thought it's any more thana bit part.
BrianStiller (40:19):
What's what has surprised you most in this
journey of creating and evolvingand presenting alpha?
NickyGumbel (40:29):
I think I've been surprised by I suppose I
shouldn't be surprised by thefact that it seems to work
everywhere.
Yeah, I I I sort of almosthoped there'd be a part of the
world it didn't work in that wewouldn't have to worry about.
But yeah, but and it seems towork for different reasons in
different parts of the world.
But uh you know, I wasn't Iguess I wasn't so surprised it
(40:53):
worked in in Canada because asyou know, Canada's not so
dissimilar from from England.
Um but to find it worked inJapan or in Korea or in China or
in India or in Africa or LatinAmerica or it's just it just
(41:14):
amazed me.
But that then I supposethinking about it, the gospel is
the same.
Jesus is the same, yesterday,today, and forever.
And the gospel message isrelevant to everybody.
Everybody's looking for love,everyone's looking for meaning,
everyone's looking to belong.
And right now, social media isit's global, but it's leading to
(41:39):
loneliness, and people areactually longing to meet
together.
And one of the things is peoplecome together, you know, they
actually meet face to face in analpha small way.
You can do it online, ofcourse.
We did it online during COVID,uh, and it works.
The Holy Spirit, you know, weprayed.
I we didn't know whether theHoly Spirit would come if we
prayed, come Holy Spirit onZoom.
(41:59):
But apparently the Holy Spiritis not is not confused by Zoom.
It it he you know, it stillworked, but we were all so glad
to get back to running it inperson, where there's that, so
everybody's looking for thatcommunity.
But this is these are it's thesame thing everywhere.
And you know, I I wassurprised, again, you asked me
(42:20):
what surprised that it worked inthe prisons.
How could this course in thatcomes from a sort of middle of
central London work in in theprisons?
But is really taken off in theprisons.
In fact, I very early on I readan article, I think it was the
Bermuda Sun, where they weretalking about Alpha running in
(42:42):
the prisons in Bermuda, and itsaid this course doesn't only
run in the prisons, it also runsin other places.
But you know, 80,000 people ayear are doing it in prison in
different parts of the world.
Um, and um that's that amazedme.
And yet it's also run inparliament, it's run in the
(43:03):
White House, it's run in at umat Harvard, it's run as you
know, it runs it in all thesedifferent places that you you
can sort of hardly believe it'sit it it can reach Harvard
students and people in prison atthe same time.
BrianStiller (43:19):
Nicky, as you look at your own life and as we
talk, some younger person islistening to you and thinking
about the impact of of of yourlife through personal ministry
and alpha worldwide, and they'rewondering what do I do?
(43:41):
Where do I go?
What do I listen for?
What counsel would you give toa younger Nicky Gumbel?
NickyGumbel (43:49):
I think the greatest title that you can have
is servant of the Lord.
I think that is all we can alldo is say, Lord, what do you
want me to do?
I'm here for you.
I'll do whatever you want me todo.
I'm your servant.
You're you're the boss.
It's all about you, Jesus.
(44:10):
We we're not here forourselves, we're here to serve
you.
What do you want me to do?
And then start by serving thepeople around you.
You know, if you're married,serve your wife.
If you've got children, serveyour children.
If you've got parents, serveyour parents.
If you've got friends, serveyour friends.
Just see if there's anythingyou can do to help anybody, to
(44:33):
serve.
And of course, the greatest actof service is to introduce
someone to Jesus if they don'tknow Jesus.
That you can't do anythingkinder, more loving, than I'm so
grateful for the people whohelped me encounter Jesus.
That's the most loving thingthat you can do.
The great the greatestinjustice in the world, there's
(44:55):
so many injustices in the world,and you know, we must fight all
injustices.
But the greatest injustice inthe world is to go through your
whole life and never to haveheard about Jesus.
And the greatest act of love isto tell someone about Jesus.
So you here I am, Lord, I wantto serve you, I want to love
(45:17):
people.
How can I how can I lovepeople?
How can I serve them?
Well, that may be feed thehungry, maybe visit those in
prison, maybe you know, lookafter your elderly mother.
It's I don't know, it's it'swhatever Jesus calls you to do.
And you the the big heroes arenot going to be the people who
(45:41):
are known, they'll be the peoplewho've quietly got on and just
served Jesus in a very, youknow, unpretentious way in in
their own homes, in theirfamilies, with their friends.
And of course, many people, ityou we're so blessed to live in
parts of the world where, yes,of course, you're persecuted in
(46:03):
the sense that people sayhorrible things about you, but
we're not persecuted in thesense that we're locked up, um,
not in England anyway yet, youknow, or executed.
Some parts of the world youmight well be executed if you
come if you come to faith inJesus.
So I think we're very blessedto live where we are, but
(46:23):
wherever we are, we have to justsay, Lord, here I am, whatever
you want me to do.
BrianStiller (46:29):
Nicky Gumbel, thank you so much for joining us
on Evangelical 360.
NickyGumbel (46:34):
It's great to be with you, Brian.
God bless.
BrianStiller (46:38):
Thanks, Nicky, for joining me today.
Your global work has beentransformative.
You've introduced countlessthousands to a living, a life
rooted in Christ.
Hearing your story of how thishappened and what it means today
has been so informative andchallenging.
So, my thanks to you for beinga part of the podcast.
(47:00):
Be sure to share this episodeand join the conversation on
YouTube.
If you'd like to learn moreabout today's guest, be sure to
check the show notes for linksand info.
And if you haven't alreadyreceived my free book and
newsletter, just go toBrianSoto.com.
Thanks again.
Until next time.
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm your host, Brian Stiller.
There are times when somethingpresents itself to the world and
we can almost see it aslife-changing.
For me, our guest today hasbrought into our world of faith
a way of introducing people toJesus of Nazareth in ways
(00:30):
unprecedented in the history ofthe church.
Nicky Gumbel helped createAlpha, a simple but profoundly
influential format where peoplecan ask honest questions in
their search for faith.
And who would have predicted inan increased secularizing age
that more and more people areasking the really big questions
(00:54):
of life?
Who am I?
Why am I here?
Where am I going?
Nicky Gumbel both created andnurtured this simple but
impactful ministry in the heartof a radically secular city,
London, England.
Today, literally worldwide,what he learned and then
(01:15):
fashioned has been used in wayswe never would have imagined.
So I'm honored to have him asour guest today.
I will try and ask the questionyou would like to ask if you
were sitting where I am today,and then to probe the underlying
issues that have helped makehis initiative so vital in the
lives of people as theysincerely search for these
(01:37):
probing life-driving issues.
Nicky Gumbel has been pastor ofHoly Brompton Church in London,
England, and director of Alpha.
Here's a podcast I wanted tomake for you, and one I know
will enrich your life.
And thanks to you for being apart of this podcast.
As you listen, would youconsider sharing this episode
(01:58):
with a friend?
And when you do, insert hashtagEvangelical360.
And if you haven't, please hitthe subscribe by joining the
conversation on YouTube in thecomments below.
Now to my guest, Nicky Gumbel.
Nicky Gumbel, thanks forjoining us on Evangelical 360.
NickyGumbel (02:19):
Delighted to be with you, Brian.
BrianStiller (02:21):
Nicky, I was raised during the time when
Billy Graham epitomized publicevangelism.
But I must say that what youhave done with Alpha, you have
revolutionized the wayChristians do public evangelism.
It is simply stunning andremarkable without precedent.
(02:44):
And so having you as a guesttoday on our podcast, I'm so
pleased to inform people andhelp them to understand both who
you are and what led you to dothis and how it's working.
So I guess the best place tostart is Nicky, what prepared
you in lights to take and becomeso pivotal in the strategy of
(03:09):
public evangelism?
NickyGumbel (03:11):
I think it was my own experience growing up.
I growing up, I wasn't broughtup as a Christian.
My father was sort of aHolocaust survivor, really.
I mean, his family, many of hisfamily had died in the
Holocaust in Germany.
And he came to England and was,although he had been baptized
and confirmed, I've recentlydiscovered in 1918, but it was
(03:36):
to assimilate.
And he'd always remained a freethinker, as they said, an
agnostic.
So he he was definitely not achurchgoer.
My mother was not a churchgoereither.
So I didn't have a Christianupbringing in that sense.
But at the age of 18, throughsome friends of mine
encountering Jesus, I read theNew Testament.
(03:58):
And as I read the NewTestament, it was as if the
person of Jesus that I wasreading about almost sort of
emerged from the pages.
And I encountered him.
And that was so life-changing.
Jesus said, I came that youmight have life and life in all
its fullness.
And when I experienced thatrelationship, the that moment
(04:20):
was so life-changing.
I wanted everyone to know.
And I just thought, this is toogood to hold to myself.
It'd be so selfish not to tellpeople.
Because Jesus looking back, Ihad a void that was filled, a
spiritual void.
I wanted to tell people, and II sort of flailed around, I
(04:45):
suppose, because I didn't knowhow to do it.
I just thought it it would beobvious if I said to all my
atheist friends, look, actually,it's true that they believe.
And then I sort of went onevangelism courses, and you had
to go out on the street and witha questionnaire, question one,
what did you have for breakfast?
Question 20, would you like toask Jesus into your life?
(05:07):
And you know, I tried all this,I tried knocking on doors, I
tried, I there was everythingthat I tried street, I did
everything to tell people.
And nothing, I mean,occasionally people came to
faith, but it was very rare.
And then I stumbled on thisthing, Alpha, which was really a
discipleship course, which Iwasn't interested in, but we
(05:28):
found people were coming on itand encountering Jesus, who were
outside the church.
So we we changed it into an acourse for people outside the
church, and then we found thatso many people were coming to
faith, and then other churchesgot interested, spread around
(05:49):
the world, and over 35 millionpeople have done it around the
world.
BrianStiller (05:53):
It's remarkable.
For people who don't know, giveus a thumbnail sketch of what
Alpha is, what it seeks to do,and how it operates.
NickyGumbel (06:02):
We call it an opportunity to explore the
meaning of life.
Yeah, I think everybody issearching for three things.
Everyone's searching for love,everyone's searching for
meaning, and everyone'ssearching to belong.
And at some point, most peopleask the question: is there more
to life than this?
(06:23):
You know, is there more to lifethan just survival, eating, you
know, going to work, retiring,whatever?
Is there more?
Is there an ultimate meaning orpurpose?
And but but the it these kindof questions are very hard to
explore.
With, you know, if you go to afootball match, you can't really
(06:44):
say, well, what do you thinkthe meaning of life is?
Or if you're down the pub, canyou know tell me what you think
the mean?
There isn't really a place forit.
But people really want to doit.
So Alpha is a way to do that ina very low-key, unthreatening,
unpressurized, non-judgmentalatmosphere with a group of
(07:05):
people who are like youexploring.
I suppose it it's not totallydissimilar from AA or you know,
one of the recovery courses, inthe sense that you've got that
you walk into an atmosphere oftotal acceptance and total
non-judgment, and you're allexploring together.
(07:26):
And it's not you're not beingpreached at, you're you're
hearing a talk.
So people come, they have ameal together, which is a way to
connect and make friends, andthen they hear a talk, usually
using a video, and the talks whois Jesus, why did he die?
How can I have faith?
How do I pray?
How can I read the Bible?
(07:47):
Guidance, all these kinds ofthings, the Holy Spirit, how do
I resist evil?
The things that about theChristian faith, about which all
parts of the church are agreed.
So it's run by the PentecostalChurch, the uh Lutherans,
Baptists, Catholics, SalvationArmy, every everybody runs it
because it's the things we agreeabout.
(08:07):
I mean, all Christians believethat Jesus is the Son of God,
that he rose from the dead, thathe died for us.
All Christians believe infaith, all Christians believe in
the Bible, prayer, guidance,etc.
So it's like half an hour ofthat.
And then and then I think oneof the most important things is
that you then have coffee orwhatever, and then you go into
small groups.
(08:28):
And the small groups kind ofpeer-led in a way, because the
hosts and the helpers simply askquestions, usually about
people's experience.
So after the talk on the cross,you know, the question would
be (08:41):
has anybody here ever needed to forgive someone?
And that you know produces areally interesting discussion.
The next question is, hasanybody here ever needed to ask
for forgiveness?
And that's just riveting whenpeople start to talk about some
of the things in their life.
You know, then it's you know,if it's the Bible, has anybody
(09:02):
here ever tried reading theBible or heard the Bible being
read?
Prayer.
Has anybody here ever triedpraying?
You know, how did you get on?
What did you experience?
So a lot of the talk is aboutwhat people have experienced.
Of course, people give theiropinion, that's fine, and there
may be uh it's always veryrespectful.
(09:24):
People say, you know, whenpeople come, they're atheists or
agnostics or from some otherfaith background, and everyone's
very respectful and listens tothem, and we explore together.
Uh it's not the the personleading is called a host because
it's more like a it's it's nota they're not leaders, they're
(09:45):
not teachers, they are justhosts, and the other people are
helpers.
So you have two hosts, twohelpers, eight to ten guests.
And what we found is manypeople who come on the course
would come as agnostics oratheists, and they discover
faith on the course in a verylow-key way.
(10:07):
But equally, some people willcome as an atheist and leave as
an atheist.
And that in a way is kind ofmeans that it's very they know
it's very unpressurized.
And some people, even who areatheists, will come back and
help on the next course becausethey've enjoyed it so much,
they've made friends, and thenoften when they come back and
help, that's when they theyactually come to faith
(10:28):
themselves.
The word opportunity is key.
So it's opportunity for theguests, and it's opportunity for
churches as well.
We never say to churches, youmust run alpha.
If you have a better way, gothat do the better way.
But if you're if you want toreach people outside of the
church, and particularly youngpeople, the average age at HGB
(10:49):
is 27.
Most of the guests are between18 and 35.
Um, and that if you want toreach that group of people with
the good news about Jesus, wefound alpha is one way that
works.
But we don't say you must doit, but if you do want to do it,
okay, we'll run a conference orwe'll give you training so that
you can do it.
(11:09):
And then what happens ischurches start running it.
Now there are tens of thousandsof churches around the world
running it, and then theirneighbors here, oh, you've got
you've grown.
Oh, I was just talking tosomeone today from Scotland who
the church was down to 50 peopleand they started running alpha
and they've grown to 300.
And um, you know, that uhpeople hear about that and they
(11:32):
say, Oh, what is it?
Well, we've been running alpha.
And then I had about a churchin cut in one of the starns
where there it's the mostnon-evangelized place in the
world.
There were something like 0.01%of the population is Christian,
and this church has 500 peoplein it, which is absolutely
(11:53):
massive for them.
And the person who was tellingthe story said, he asked the
pastor, how's this happened?
He said, Well, we've beenrunning alpha.
How many times have you runalpha?
74 times.
Um, and he's grown the largestchurch in whatever it, whatever
star it is.
And then people hear about it,and then so then they want, so
(12:16):
then they'll run a conference.
That kind of church will run aconference to help other
churches in the area.
One for Chinese pastors.
We had three and a halfthousand Chinese pastors coming
to because they'd heard aboutwhat's happening.
And and there's now a Chineseversion.
It's it's a hundred percentChinese, it's Chinese
presenters, testimonies filmedin China, uh directed by someone
(12:40):
Chinese, and we're doing thesame for Africa.
BrianStiller (12:44):
Nicky, remarkable story.
I like to I'd like to cycleback for your reflection on how
this exploded.
I mean, here you are, you're onstaff in a nice Anglican church
in London, and Anglicans aren'tknown for their bombastic
evangelism, but you developedthis nice program.
(13:07):
It sounds very orderly andcreative and innovative and so
forth, but something happened toexplode it to 35 million
attenders.
As you look back on it, whatwas there a pivotal moment?
Was there an idea?
Was there an experience?
Was there a moment when thisreally became something more
(13:29):
than just what a few churchesare doing?
NickyGumbel (13:32):
There have been many, many, many pivotal moments
along the road.
The first one was the firstcourse I was involved in in
October 1990.
Halfway through the course, ayoung man turned up, very good
looking, Cambridge educated,rode for Cambridge, brought by a
(13:54):
friend who said, My friend isnot a Christian, but he's heard
there's some very attractiveyoung women on the course, and
he's come to look around.
Um and he's not gonna stay forthe small group, but he's just
gonna take a look round duringthe talk.
So he introduced me to this guycalled Matthew in the coffee
break, and I introduced Matthewto one of the young women on the
(14:18):
course, and he changed hismind.
He decided he would stay forthe small groups after all.
And he finished the course andhe encountered Jesus and he
invited a lot of his friends onthe next course, and he actually
married my wife's youngersister, so he's now my brother.
Matthew's now mybrother-in-law.
(14:39):
So um, but he brought hisfriends on the next world.
He brought his sister on thenext course, brought several of
his friends.
I had a group made up entirelyof people outside the church.
Uh, they all came to faith,they were all filled with the
Holy Spirit on the weekend away,and they all went on to
positions, pretty much all ofthem went on to positions of
leadership in the church.
And so that was that was theone pivotal moment when we
(15:01):
realized it could be used forpeople outside the church.
And that's when we changed it.
And then it grew to about 300people coming on each course.
It never occurred to me thatother churches didn't have a
course for people outside thechurch that had 300 people
coming.
But I was being rung up byBaptist ministers and Catholic
priests and Anglican ministerssaying, Well, how do you do it?
(15:24):
I spent all my time on thephone explaining how it worked.
I thought, I can't do this.
I'm gonna get them all togetherin one place and tell them.
And uh, to our amazement, athousand people turned up at
this conference.
So I we I told them all, and Ithought that's it.
I've told them now I won't haveto answer any of these phone
calls.
But then they said, Well, couldyou come to Scotland?
Could you come to Hong Kong?
(15:45):
Could you come to Birmingham?
Could you come to Africa?
And then it started to spreadaround the world, and then it
kind of went viral, really.
You know, it didn't, it wasit's now, I think, in every
country in the world, because Iwas doing a conference one time
in India, and the place where wewere staying, someone came up
and said, Oh, I've done Alpha.
(16:06):
And they just introducedthemselves.
They weren't at the conferencein India, they were just staying
in the same place.
And I said, Where did you doit?
And they said, In the FaroeIslands.
So I said, Where are the FaroeIslands?
And they said, Well, they'reowned by Denmark.
So I said, Did you do it inDanish?
No, we did it in Faroese.
So I said, you know, otherchurches in the Faroe Islands
(16:30):
running Alpha?
Yeah, yeah, all the churches inthe Faroe Islands run Alpha.
And so when I got back toLondon, I said, Do we have any
record of Alpha running in theFaroe Islands?
No.
Have we given permission for itbe to be translated to Faroese?
No.
But it's just, you know, whocares?
It it's just gone viral.
(16:50):
And I suspect that meant when Irealized we might have a record
of 178 countries running it,but actually it's it's it's
everywhere.
BrianStiller (16:59):
When and how did you come to understand the work
of the spirit in the drawing toJesus?
Was this a particular moment inyou in your own life, or was it
historic?
Uh, how did that emerge?
NickyGumbel (17:16):
I think with the experience of the Holy Spirit is
absolutely key.
You know, I mentioned earlierthat we all need uh all human
beings, in whatever age,whatever part of the world, are
searching for those three thingsfor love, for meaning, for
purpose, and for belonging.
And I guess of those, the mostimportant is love.
(17:39):
We need to know that we'reloved.
And the heart of the message ofthe gospel and the heart of the
message of Alpha is you areloved.
St.
Paul wrote, the Son of Godloved me and gave himself for
me.
If you, Brian, had been theonly person in the world, Jesus
would have died for you.
(17:59):
That's how much you are loved.
And everyone needs to know thatmessage.
And so that's the message we'reproclaiming, but it's not
enough to know it in your head.
You need to experience God'slove in your heart, and that's
the work of the Holy Spirit.
The love of God, that's God'slove for us, as you know, as a
(18:22):
Pentecostal, is poured into ourhearts by the Holy Spirit, who
has been given to us.
And so we learnt to pray thisprayer, Come, Holy Spirit.
In every service, we never gothrough a service at HDB without
praying, Come, Holy Spirit.
And on Alpha, we introduced,before my time, an a weekend on
(18:44):
the Holy Spirit.
Who is the Holy Spirit?
What does he do?
How can I be filled with theHoly Spirit?
And then we pray, Come, HolySpirit.
And we give people anopportunity to be filled with
the Holy Spirit, to experiencethe love of God.
Sometimes people speak intongues and we talk about uh,
you know, that gift that Paultalks about and was experienced
(19:05):
on the day of Pentecost.
And when we on the question,and now I've read, I've done, I
think I've done 105 alpha smallgroups now, or the one that
we're starting on Tuesday willbe my 105th Alpha Small Group.
And and I've read thousands ofquestionnaires.
And the questionnaire goes,Were you a Christian when you
(19:25):
started the course?
No.
How would you describe yourselfnow?
Christian.
When and how did the changeoccur?
On the Alpha weekend, when Iexperienced the Holy Spirit.
And that's the moment oftransformation.
That's why the disciples weretransformed on the day of
Pentecost.
They were filled with the HolySpirit.
And this is how lives arechanged.
(19:49):
And the thing is, if you ifyou've been filled with the Holy
Spirit, it's not just, youhaven't just assented to say,
well, I am a, I guess if I, youknow, if I if I was tortured,
I'd have to confess I'm aChristian.
It's it's like, this isamazing.
I want to tell my friends.
It's so good.
And that's why I think peoplewhat why it's exploded, because
(20:11):
people have this experience ofGod's love, and they want their
sister to experience.
They want their someone comingon Tuesday night who's 82 years
old.
The guests in our small we'rewe're gonna run it in our home
because uh for 96 courses I Iran it at HDB, but I'm no longer
the pastor there.
Sometimes we run it at ourlocal church, and sometimes we
(20:32):
run it in our home.
And this one we're gonna run inour home.
So one of the guests coming onnext Tuesday is 82 years of age.
Her daughter came about 10years ago.
She was in our small group.
She was then probably 35.
Um, and then during lockdown,her husband came on the course
and he came to faith.
(20:53):
And now she's managed topersuade her 82-year-old mother
to come.
So, but it's because of whatshe experienced, she wanted her
husband to experience it.
Her husband came, heexperienced it.
Now she wants her mother toexperience it.
So it's it's it's friendstelling friends.
That's how it spreads.
BrianStiller (21:13):
Nicky, I understand that early on you
changed one of your earlyprogram or early talks to who is
Jesus.
NickyGumbel (21:21):
Yes.
Well, uh when I took it on, itwas in the it was a course, a
discipleship course for peoplewho had already encountered
Jesus.
So the first talk was, How canI be sure of my faith?
Well, if you're not aChristian, that's not the first
question you ask.
How can I be sure of my faith?
The first question you want toyou ask probably.
(21:43):
So actually the first talk isnow, is there more to life than
this?
It used to be Christianityboring, irrelevant, or an untrue
question mark.
Now it's but it's much the samestructure, but it's basically,
is there more to life than this?
And it's based around Jesussaid, I and the way, the truth,
and the life.
And then the second talk is whois Jesus?
(22:06):
Because that's the startingpoint.
There is no other startingpoint, really, than Jesus.
You know, people said, what Iwould never have come up with
Alpha as an evangelistic course.
That's the that's the it's theprovidence of God.
Because it was because it was acourse designed for people
outside the church, it hadthings like a weekend on the
(22:27):
Holy Spirit, designed for peoplealready in the church, rather.
It had things like a weekend onthe Holy Spirit, an evening on
healing, all these things in it,which we thought, which if I'd
come up with an evangelisticcourse, it would be why does God
allow suffering?
What about other religions?
Is there any evidence for youknow the resurrection?
All this kind of stuff.
(22:48):
And we had that.
We had that course in thechurch.
It was called, I don't know,Agnostics Anonymous or
something.
And there was about 10 peopleon it.
And then we had this course forpeople outside the church for
uh called Alpha, where we weregetting 300 people.
So we realized you you candiscuss, you know, why why does
(23:11):
God allow suffering as a sort ofpre as a sort of evangelistic
thing.
It doesn't get you anywhere,actually, because for some of
the people it probably wasn't anissue.
And for those it was, youhaven't provided a satisfactory
answer.
So it doesn't get you anywhere.
But all the talks on Alpha, ifyou get who Jesus is, that will
(23:34):
change your life.
If you understand that Jesusdied for you, that will change
your life.
If you put your trust in him,the third talk is how can I have
faith?
That will change your life.
If you start praying, that willchange your life.
If you start reading the Bible,that will change your life.
If you experience the HolySpirit, that will change.
They're all they're all onesthat take you take you on.
(23:57):
But the whole inheriting acourse that had talks about
being filled with the Spirit,about speaking in tongues, you
would never do that for forpeople outside the church.
And yet, that was the thing.
And of course, young people noware really searching for in all
kinds of ways.
You know, we live in this worldthat is so unstable.
(24:20):
It's like kind of the world isshaking.
You look what's happening inPoland.
Putin flying drones overPoland.
Europe is in this state oftotal instability.
You look at what's happening inthe Middle East, in Gaza, and
then a bombing of Qatar.
(24:42):
The Middle East is unstable.
Look at the murder of CharlieKirk.
The US is in a state ofinstability.
The world is in a state ofinstability.
And young people are in a stateof instability because of AI,
for example.
They don't know what kind ofjob they're going to have.
Five years ago, you could havehad a job, learn to do coding.
(25:04):
Now they're going to be,there's no one's going to be
needed to do coding becauseit'll all be done by AI.
So the question is, will I havea job?
Will I be able to buy a house?
Young parents, parents arethinking, how am I going to
bring my children up?
How's it work?
There's this total uncertainty.
And so young people eithereither often going in a sort of
(25:27):
into social media and sufferinganxiety and depression and being
very isolated, or they'resaying, I don't want anything to
do with social media.
I don't even want to watch thenews and they're escaping.
Or they're saying, Oh, what amI going to try?
I need enough money.
You know, I I I look at ElonMusk and you think, oh, yes, we
need 400 billion in order tosurvive.
(25:49):
Or you look at, or you go downthe health and fitness, you
know, how can I live forever?
How can I, you know, get down?
They're all these way, or theygo down a spiritual route.
Can I try magic mushrooms oryoga or Buddhism or whatever?
And and actually it'sattractive to them to come and
(26:10):
explore something that issupernatural.
You know, the gift that beingfilled with the spirit,
experiencing the gift oftongues, for example, healing,
these are supernaturalactivities that are very you
know, we they're going after thefull supernatural, and we have
the genuine supernatural.
And if we can introduce them tous, not to a sort of
(26:34):
decaffeinated Christianity or touse a different analogy, uh
introduce them to full fatChristianity, if you like.
The real thing, that's soattractive.
And so I think that's one ofthe reasons people are coming,
because they want somethingthat's that's experiential.
They don't want to just theknowledge is important, of
(26:55):
course, the truth is important,but it's also important to
experience it in your heart, andthat's why the work of the
spirit is so important.
Very long answer.
BrianStiller (27:06):
Whereas you've turned it on its head by
introducing them first to Jesus,not to the apologetic question,
but to Jesus, the apologist,who ultimately provides the
answers.
NickyGumbel (27:19):
Yeah. And by doing it that way.
You can discuss in the smallgroup.
If it comes up in the smallgroup, of course, and it very
often does, you can discuss uhyou and you hear from people
what they have suffered, and youknow, you can just you can talk
about these issues, but cricketis very popular.
And uh it used to be that thatbatsmen were very defensive, you
(27:40):
know, they would just and playan occasional attacking shot.
Now that's all changed, andmost of the shots they play are
attacking, but you still need anoccasional defensive shot.
So Alpha is is basically allattacking shots, with the
occasional defensive shot in thesmall group where you're having
to deal with what aboutsuffering, what about other
(28:01):
religions?
I mean, they're big questions,you know.
There are lots of challenges tofaith, but but you know, if you
hit the who is Jesus, why didhe die?
They're all they all take youforward.
They're all run-scoring shots,if you like.
They're not just defensive.
Um, and no, apologetics is veryimportant, very grateful.
You you've got uh that lovelyguy, uh uh Will Huff, isn't it,
(28:25):
in in Canada, who's doing greatstuff on apologetics.
But uh I'm not saying it's notit's it's all that's all
important, but but on Alpha,we're trying to introduce people
to Jesus.
BrianStiller (28:39):
Nicky, what what are the the basic misconceptions
that people have about Jesusthat you deal with in your alpha
program?
NickyGumbel (28:47):
People are so uninformed.
You know, the generation andthis is a disadvantage, but also
a huge advantage.
Uh young people, most of theyoung people now, their parents
were atheists.
So they are in in ourgeneration, if you weren't
Christian, it was likely thatthere was some Christianity in
your family.
(29:08):
Your mother was a churchgoer,or your aunt was a churchgoer,
or your friends went to church.
Now, they don't have any, theirparents didn't go to church.
Their parents, you know, theirparents tend to be atheist,
agnostic, at most nominal, youknow, Christmas and Easter, but
(29:29):
but they don't have thebackground, and therefore they
don't know anything about Jesus.
They've never really thoughtabout who Jesus is.
Um and so there's a range ofyou, you know, that that he
never existed, or that I guessmost people think he was a good,
good religious teacher like allthe others.
But w what we find is when youdo that, when you have the
(29:51):
discussion about who is Jesus,that most people say things
like, Oh, I don't think he was Idon't think he was the son of
God, I don't think But by the bythe time they come back next
week, it's not a questionanymore.
It's kind of settled in theirmind that there is evidence for
the life, death, andresurrection of Jesus.
It's kind of gone in becauseit's very early on in the
(30:12):
course, they don't want to admitthat they've and you don't want
to push them.
So it's just we we're nevertrying to win an argument in the
small group.
You are very happy to leave itat the end of the evening that
they've all gone away saying wedon't think Jesus is the Son of
God, as long as they come backnext week, because they'll hear
the gospel.
(30:33):
And what we find is that oftenthese things don't, but after a
bit, as the course goes on, eventhough they said the first
week, you know, I don't believeJesus is the Son of God, they
kind of it's kind of sunk inthat there's quite a lot of
evidence, and there's evidencefor the resurrection.
And then they they they listento the talk on the cross, and
(30:56):
it's like, wow, that's that'samazing, the love of God.
And then they to they think, ohyeah.
It's sort of as they as youbegin to reveal the the beauty,
the treasures of the Christianfaith, they're just very
attractive about it.
Yeah, the gospel is very goodnews.
Uh and what we're trying to doon Alpha is present it in a good
(31:20):
way, in a way that's you itthat's not too confrontational,
too not not attract isattractive to people, not just
the message, but the way it'spresented.
It's presented in a very lovingway, it's a very presented in a
very caring way, a personalway, one-to-one, in a group, not
(31:40):
not in it, not I mean, ofcourse, wonderful things can
happen in a crowd.
And as you read the NewTestament, Jesus preached to
crowds, Paul spoke to crowds,all those kind of evangelists is
great.
But you also see in the in theNew Testament the one-to-one,
Jesus with the the woman at thewell or the Philip in the
Ethiopian.
And it's much more like that.
(32:02):
It's much more sort ofpersonal, just encounter and
friendship-based, so that thepeople you're talking to have
become your friends becausethey've revealed their
vulnerabilities when we'rediscussing things like have you
ever had to ask forgiveness?
People become very vulnerable.
And and we think we'll impresspeople by our strength.
(32:23):
Oh, I've got such knowledge ofthe Bible.
The Hebrew says this, the Greeksays this, but actually, you
know, we connect with peoplethrough our vulnerabilities.
And it's much better for thehost to say, Well, I struggle
with that too, actually.
I have my doubts, you know.
Then then you get connection,or I've been through suffering,
you know, I've just had cancer.
(32:45):
Um, you know, I don'tunderstand why God allowed me to
go through cancer, but I stillbelieve in Jesus.
It's real, it's kind ofauthentic.
It's everyone's, we're not sortof setting ourselves up as the
experts and them as the sort ofpupils who come to learn from
us.
It's like we're all humanbeings and we're all on the
journey, and we can learn fromeach other, but this is our
(33:07):
experience, and uh, we foundJesus is does make a difference
in our lives.
And if you're interested, wecan help you.
BrianStiller (33:14):
Dor, the the the kind of the historical timing of
the rise of alpha and your yourinfluence.
I mean, you're in in the UK,which to me is a member of the
Commonwealth, is probably themost secular of all countries.
Um you're at you're at a timewhen secularity as a kind of a
ruling paradigm is dominant inthe culture and church
(33:38):
attendance has fallen off.
And yet you come with up with asimple message message of who
is Jesus, and allowing people tosit around a table for having a
meal and talking to people, andyou simply defy the odds.
You see, you you come upagainst secularity in the most
surprising way.
(33:58):
Uh, as an initiative of thespirit, it just to me it's it's
it's a stunning example of howGod works in life.
In moments and times we don'twe think that the gospel is
dead, the voice has been hasgone silent.
NickyGumbel (34:13):
Yeah, well, I think, I mean, certainly we're
experiencing now in a new way,and this is a, as you know,
quite a new thing.
The last few months, the BibleSociety has done this research
and seen that there's a quietrevival happening in the UK.
And I think there is a return.
I mean, we're seeing itanecdotally in our churches.
(34:35):
At HCB last Sunday, they theyhad real problems at at the 1130
service because this time ofyear it wouldn't normally be
completely full.
But not only was the churchcompletely full, but all the
overflow rooms were completelyfull.
And they virtually had to closethe building because they just
couldn't get everybody in.
And that is now becoming Ihearing this not just in the UK,
(35:00):
but uh in different parts ofthe world.
Something is happening, and Ithink it's interesting.
We have a we have a thingcalled the knowledge, which is
it's my daughter gets.
It's a kind of we havesomething called the week, which
is a written digest of all theall the week's news.
But you couldn't she what shegets is an email, which is again
(35:20):
a synthesis of the news.
And in this week's knowledge,it said, what people are feeling
now in the UK is that there arethree things that are sort of
driving people.
One is about the borders, aboutimmigration, you know, in uh uh
ill unlawful immigration,second is about free speech, and
(35:42):
the third is a return toChristianity.
And that is an extraordinarything.
Admittedly, it's third in thosethings, but it's it's still
there.
And I think it's people maybelooking at other religions and
thinking, is that really what wewant here?
It's people looking at you knowtheir parents, atheism, and
(36:02):
thinking, is that really what wewant?
And so there's there's athere's a real marked change in
the culture here.
And it's it's it's so earlythat it's very hard to know.
Uh but anecdotally, well,there's the research, there's
the evidence of the of the theBible society, but and
(36:25):
anecdotally, it's certainly truethat the churches are
surprisingly people are coming.
Um everyone you talk to issaying, well, we've got all
these young families turning up.
Because I think people aresaying, how do we want to bring
up our children now?
Do we want them to be broughtup with no faith or with one of
the new faiths that are comingto the country?
And I think people increasinglyare saying, actually, let's
(36:49):
have another look atChristianity.
BrianStiller (36:51):
Nicky, I'm interested in how you're
handling all of this.
I mean, here you are, a a youngAnglican vicar in London with a
with a propensity to tellingothers about Jesus, but all of a
sudden, what you have led, whatyour name is synonymous with,
is a revolution in publicwitness of the gospel.
(37:14):
It's is it's uh it's it's akinto Billy Graham.
So what does this do to NickyGumbel as your your
self-identity, your own life?
Uh how has this changed you?
NickyGumbel (37:29):
Well, I think the the thing about alpha is it's
alpha.
It's it's not it's not you knowour old my old vicar was Sandy
Miller, but we never had SandyMiller ministries.
We had HTB, and this is alpha.
It's not that there arehundreds of I I didn't come up
(37:51):
with the idea of alpha.
It was uh Charles Marnum andthen John Irving and then Nicky
Lee.
I inherited it.
So to me, what one time I did aconference in, we did some
conferences in America, and wedid two conferences, and then we
had our summer holiday with ourchildren, and then we did two
(38:11):
more conferences.
And for the summer holiday withour children, uh some very kind
Americans lent us their house,and they said, in the garage is
a sports car, and in that thatsports car, because of its age,
it needs to be driven every day.
Otherwise, when we come back,it's not gonna work.
(38:33):
So please will you drive it?
So I drove this sports car.
It's the only time I've everdriven a sports car, and it was
amazing to drive this sportscar, but I never thought it was
my own.
You know, it's not I don't andan alpha, you know, I inherited
it.
I well, we've had a lot of funwith it.
It's a great joy to drive it,but now there's someone in
(38:57):
China, you know, there's nothingto do with me.
The youth alpha, I'm not in theyouth alpha, that's going
viral, the youth alpha.
I won't be in all these otherones, the the Arabic Alpha or
the, and and even the part thatI'm playing in the in the new
film series, which we juststarted doing yesterday, we
started refilming.
I will do a smaller and smalleramount.
(39:17):
Uh my son Johnny asked me rightat the beginning.
This would have been about 19.
We did the first the first filmseries in 1994, and then we did
another one in 1998.
And about in 1998, when hewould have been about 16, he
said to me, Dad, will you alwaysbe the one who does who's doing
(39:43):
the videos?
And of course, it was a very Imean he knew exactly what he was
asking.
He was pointing out to me thatif Alpha was going to survive,
it wouldn't always be me.
I was just doing ittemporarily, and that's what it
is.
I've been I it's been a massiveprivilege to be involved, but
it doesn't belong to me.
(40:04):
It's other people who get whoare increasingly leading it.
Around the world, there arehundreds of thousands of people
already involved in leading thecourses.
And I'm privileged to have apart to play in it, but I've
never thought it's any more thana bit part.
BrianStiller (40:19):
What's what has surprised you most in this
journey of creating and evolvingand presenting alpha?
NickyGumbel (40:29):
I think I've been surprised by I suppose I
shouldn't be surprised by thefact that it seems to work
everywhere.
Yeah, I I I sort of almosthoped there'd be a part of the
world it didn't work in that wewouldn't have to worry about.
But yeah, but and it seems towork for different reasons in
different parts of the world.
But uh you know, I wasn't Iguess I wasn't so surprised it
(40:53):
worked in in Canada because asyou know, Canada's not so
dissimilar from from England.
Um but to find it worked inJapan or in Korea or in China or
in India or in Africa or LatinAmerica or it's just it just
(41:14):
amazed me.
But that then I supposethinking about it, the gospel is
the same.
Jesus is the same, yesterday,today, and forever.
And the gospel message isrelevant to everybody.
Everybody's looking for love,everyone's looking for meaning,
everyone's looking to belong.
And right now, social media isit's global, but it's leading to
(41:39):
loneliness, and people areactually longing to meet
together.
And one of the things is peoplecome together, you know, they
actually meet face to face in analpha small way.
You can do it online, ofcourse.
We did it online during COVID,uh, and it works.
The Holy Spirit, you know, weprayed.
I we didn't know whether theHoly Spirit would come if we
prayed, come Holy Spirit onZoom.
(41:59):
But apparently the Holy Spiritis not is not confused by Zoom.
It it he you know, it stillworked, but we were all so glad
to get back to running it inperson, where there's that, so
everybody's looking for thatcommunity.
But this is these are it's thesame thing everywhere.
And you know, I I wassurprised, again, you asked me
(42:20):
what surprised that it worked inthe prisons.
How could this course in thatcomes from a sort of middle of
central London work in in theprisons?
But is really taken off in theprisons.
In fact, I very early on I readan article, I think it was the
Bermuda Sun, where they weretalking about Alpha running in
(42:42):
the prisons in Bermuda, and itsaid this course doesn't only
run in the prisons, it also runsin other places.
But you know, 80,000 people ayear are doing it in prison in
different parts of the world.
Um, and um that's that amazedme.
And yet it's also run inparliament, it's run in the
(43:03):
White House, it's run in at umat Harvard, it's run as you
know, it runs it in all thesedifferent places that you you
can sort of hardly believe it'sit it it can reach Harvard
students and people in prison atthe same time.
BrianStiller (43:19):
Nicky, as you look at your own life and as we
talk, some younger person islistening to you and thinking
about the impact of of of yourlife through personal ministry
and alpha worldwide, and they'rewondering what do I do?
(43:41):
Where do I go?
What do I listen for?
What counsel would you give toa younger Nicky Gumbel?
NickyGumbel (43:49):
I think the greatest title that you can have
is servant of the Lord.
I think that is all we can alldo is say, Lord, what do you
want me to do?
I'm here for you.
I'll do whatever you want me todo.
I'm your servant.
You're you're the boss.
It's all about you, Jesus.
(44:10):
We we're not here forourselves, we're here to serve
you.
What do you want me to do?
And then start by serving thepeople around you.
You know, if you're married,serve your wife.
If you've got children, serveyour children.
If you've got parents, serveyour parents.
If you've got friends, serveyour friends.
Just see if there's anythingyou can do to help anybody, to
(44:33):
serve.
And of course, the greatest actof service is to introduce
someone to Jesus if they don'tknow Jesus.
That you can't do anythingkinder, more loving, than I'm so
grateful for the people whohelped me encounter Jesus.
That's the most loving thingthat you can do.
The great the greatestinjustice in the world, there's
(44:55):
so many injustices in the world,and you know, we must fight all
injustices.
But the greatest injustice inthe world is to go through your
whole life and never to haveheard about Jesus.
And the greatest act of love isto tell someone about Jesus.
So you here I am, Lord, I wantto serve you, I want to love
(45:17):
people.
How can I how can I lovepeople?
How can I serve them?
Well, that may be feed thehungry, maybe visit those in
prison, maybe you know, lookafter your elderly mother.
It's I don't know, it's it'swhatever Jesus calls you to do.
And you the the big heroes arenot going to be the people who
(45:41):
are known, they'll be the peoplewho've quietly got on and just
served Jesus in a very, youknow, unpretentious way in in
their own homes, in theirfamilies, with their friends.
And of course, many people, ityou we're so blessed to live in
parts of the world where, yes,of course, you're persecuted in
(46:03):
the sense that people sayhorrible things about you, but
we're not persecuted in thesense that we're locked up, um,
not in England anyway yet, youknow, or executed.
Some parts of the world youmight well be executed if you
come if you come to faith inJesus.
So I think we're very blessedto live where we are, but
(46:23):
wherever we are, we have to justsay, Lord, here I am, whatever
you want me to do.
BrianStiller (46:29):
Nicky Gumbel, thank you so much for joining us
on Evangelical 360.
NickyGumbel (46:34):
It's great to be with you, Brian.
God bless.
BrianStiller (46:38):
Thanks, Nicky, for joining me today.
Your global work has beentransformative.
You've introduced countlessthousands to a living, a life
rooted in Christ.
Hearing your story of how thishappened and what it means today
has been so informative andchallenging.
So, my thanks to you for beinga part of the podcast.
(47:00):
Be sure to share this episodeand join the conversation on
YouTube.
If you'd like to learn moreabout today's guest, be sure to
check the show notes for linksand info.
And if you haven't alreadyreceived my free book and
newsletter, just go toBrianSoto.com.
Thanks again.
Until next time.
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