October 24, 2025 • 40 mins
A quiet statistic hides a loud truth: one in seven Christians lives with the risk of arrest, mob violence, or bureaucratic erasure simply for practicing their faith. In this episode we sit down with Dr. Janet Epp Buckingham—lawyer, professor, and head of the World Evangelical Alliance’s Geneva advocacy team—to unpack how smart, steady diplomacy at the UN can create real space for believers to worship, witness, and even bury their dead without fear.
Janet traces her path from Canadian public policy work to leading a team that turns testimony into action. She explains how special consultative status opens doors to convene side events, deliver hard-hitting 90-second statements, and file reports that influence asylum cases and government responses. We dig into the mechanics: building trust with diplomats, coordinating with national alliances across 140 countries, and timing “good cop, bad cop” strategies so international pressure empowers local engagement rather than eclipsing it.
The conversation explores rising trends—registration traps that criminalize house churches, apostasy laws that penalize conversion, and AI-fueled surveillance that tightens control. Case studies bring the stakes into focus: a pastor from Turkey facing restrictions, Nigerian Christians displaced by violence, and India’s disturbing pattern of mobs blocking Christian funerals. Through it all, Janet shows how precise language, credible evidence, and persistent presence can turn compassion into policy change and small wins into lasting protections.
If you care about religious freedom, this episode offers both clarity and a roadmap: what works at the UN, how advocacy reaches the local church, and where listeners can step in—through informed prayer, careful sharing, and support for trusted relief and legal efforts.
You can learn more about the World Evangelical Alliance at the UN and Dr. Buckingham's work through the WEA website and Facebook.
And please don't forget to share this episode and join the conversation on YouTube!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brian Stiller (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm your host, Brian Stiller.
Most of us live our lives inrelative ease, free from
intimidation, or from those whomight try and infringe on our
faith or right to believe as wechoose.
As we do, we really are unawareof so many in our world who
(00:31):
today, even as we speak ofhaving to watch who is seeing
them go into a church or listento them share their faith.
That kind of intimidation maycome from a government, police
force, or from another religiouscommunity, or from a neighbor
who, in reporting you, may getyou removed so your house can
(00:51):
become theirs.
Within the echelons of powerwhere countries meet, most of us
are excluded.
It takes people who know theirstuff to speak into those rooms
of governmental and judicialpower.
We need people who understandhow the system works and are
able to finesse legal jargongetting the attention of the
(01:15):
offending country.
Janet Epp Buckingham is one ofthose.
We've worked for years togetherin Canada, but now from her
post in Geneva, she leads theadvocacy team of the World
Evangelical Alliance.
She's the one who presses hardon those countries who diminish
the rights of freedom of faithand religion.
(01:35):
She leads a team of peopleskilled in the art of diplomacy,
not just to make friends, butto find ways so people on the
ground, those overcome byoppression and persecution, are
free to worship and serve theGod they choose.
You're in for a rich moment ofseeing how this global
(01:55):
infrastructure of governmentswork on matters of persecution.
I'm so pleased you've chosen tojoin as part of this podcast.
As you listen, would youconsider sharing this episode
with a friend?
And if you haven't, please hitsubscribe by joining the
conversation on YouTube in thecomments below.
(02:16):
Now to my guest, Janet EppBuckingham.
Janet Epp Buckingham, thanksfor joining us on Evangelical
360.
Janet Epp Buckingham (02:26):
It's great to be with you today.
Brian Stiller (02:28):
Janet, I want to talk about the various
activities that you're involvedin in the Geneva office of the
World Evangelical Alliance.
But these numbers jumped out atme today as I was preparing.
One in seven Christians facepersecution.
Last year, the year 2024, 4,476Christians were killed, 4,700
(02:56):
detained.
380 million Christians live incountries of high levels of
persecution.
In this age, in the 21stcentury, these numbers tend to
alarm me.
Should they?
Janet Epp Buckingham (03:16):
They should.
Now, interestingly, I have metChristians in some of those
countries where there are highlevels of persecution, and I
find them so inspiring becausethey recognize exactly what's
going on and the risk that theyare in, but they want to stay
(03:41):
and share the gospel with theirfamily and friends and bring
them to the saving love ofJesus.
And I am so in awe of them andthe risks that they face.
And one of one of my jobs atthe UN is try to try to try to
(04:04):
change that.
Try to make it so that they arenot facing the kind of
persecution that they are.
But it is very real, the kindof persecution that Christians
around the world are facing.
Brian Stiller (04:20):
But how does a uh Canadian lawyer educator end up
in Geneva managing an officethat deals with advocacy against
persecution?
Janet Epp Buckingham (04:35):
Well, it's interesting, Brian, because I
feel like God has just beenpreparing me for this my whole
life.
And it started back when I wasa young lawyer, and my husband
wanted to do graduate studies atCambridge University in the UK.
And I came into contact withthe Jubilee Center, which is a
(04:58):
Christian public policy thinktank.
I had never heard of such athing before, but God just laid
it on my heart at that time thatHe wanted me to engage in
Christian public policy,whatever that meant.
Well, when I came back toCanada after that, I was
(05:19):
directed to the EvangelicalFellowship of Canada.
And someone named Brian Stillerwas the president then and gave
this young whippersnapperlawyer an opportunity to engage
with the Social ActionCommission, which was engaging
in public policy issues of theday from a Christian
(05:43):
perspective, uh, and then theReligious Liberty Commission.
And uh ultimately I ended updoing my doctorate in freedom of
religion or belief, looking atboth international and Canadian
laws on that subject.
I then was given theopportunity to lead the Ottawa
(06:04):
office of the EvangelicalFellowship of Canada for a year,
which turned into seven years,um, and really gave me a flavor
for how one engages in advocacyfrom a Christian perspective.
And we always have to beconscious, we're speaking on
(06:24):
behalf of the church andChristians.
We want to engage relationally,we want to engage positively,
but we want to make known topolicymakers what we believe and
what is important to us.
Then God led me into workingwith Trinity Western University,
and I directed the LaurentianLeadership Center, which is a
(06:48):
live-learn center that TrinityWestern, which is in British
Columbia, runs in Ottawa.
And students would come for avisiting semester, engage in
public policy internships, and Iwould teach them about Canadian
history from a Christianperspective, and look at our
prime ministers and theirleadership and Christian ethics
(07:11):
from a public policyperspective.
And then in 2022, I retiredfrom that, and the Secretary
General of the World EvangelicalAlliance said, Janet, you seem
to have some extra time on yourhands.
How would you like to engage inpublic policy?
So when I started with theWorld Evangelical Alliance, I
(07:33):
was the director of globaladvocacy.
And so I was still in Canadaand I was providing strategic
oversight to the work of the UN.
And then one of the people whoreported to me, who was the
director of the Geneva officedoing direct advocacy, left
actually to go run a persecutedchurch organization in the US.
(07:57):
And my husband looked at me andsaid, Janet, is God calling you
to that?
You are an advocate at heart.
And I said, I'm not looking fora new career.
What are you talking about?
Well, obviously, he was rightthat God was calling me to that.
But this, this I have thiswonderful title of professor
(08:18):
doctor, because I'm a professoremerita of Trinity Western
University.
I have a doctorate in law, infreedom of religion or belief.
And so I have a lot ofcredibility when I meet with
diplomats, when I meet withpeople who are engaged in the UN
system, who work for the UN inhuman rights, because I have all
(08:40):
the experience and background,and I wrote a book on religious
freedom in Canada.
So I know what I'm talkingabout when I talk about
religious freedom.
Brian Stiller (08:51):
And let me say for people that are listening
that knowing Janet, her ownmodesty, but confidence in her
ability to do the work iscritical when you're facing the
kind of people and issues thatyou face worldwide.
But let me let me come back tothis question.
(09:12):
As evangelicals, we talk aboutthe evangel, the good news of
Jesus.
And at the very heart of ourmessage is Christ coming and
transforming one in life.
How does this caring forpersecuted Christians, of
(09:33):
course, is self-evidentlyimportant, but how does that in
your mind connect with thesharing of the gospel, the good
news of Jesus in the transformedlife?
How does this match?
Janet Epp Buckingham (09:48):
One of the things I've been very conscious
of is years ago, when I wouldgo as a university student to
missions conferences, I went toUrbana many, many decades ago,
and we talked about the 1040window.
And everybody was like, youknow, we need to be evangelizing
(10:10):
in some of these reallyhard-to-reach places.
And by God's grace, there'sbeen a lot of evangelism in some
of these hard places, butthat's where Christians are most
persecuted.
And so a missionary comes,brings the good news, people
come to Christ, they plant achurch, and all of that is
(10:33):
illegal.
And so there's thistransformation that is happening
in these young Christians'lives, but they also have to be
an underground church.
The World Evangelical Alliancehas national alliances in over
140 countries.
Some of those are places wherepeople can't even mention that
(10:57):
they're Christians, and yet theyare being formed in a crucible.
They're being formed underpressure for their faith.
I met one young woman who saidher Muslim family had locked her
in her bedroom for eight years,and she lived for her Christian
(11:22):
friends sneaking Christianliterature into her bedroom.
And she would read it avidly,and when her family found out
about it, they would beat her.
Brian Stiller (11:57):
Okay, let's cut, let's come down to the activity
that you supervise that you headup in Geneva.
How did this World EvangelicalAlliance, the association of
which you and I are a part,evangelicals make up a quarter
of the world's Christians today?
How did this WEA, this group ofnetwork of evangelicals, come
(12:19):
to establish an office inGeneva?
And what's the nature of thatoffice?
Janet Epp Buckingham (12:23):
Well, actually, back when I worked
with the Evangelical Fellowshipof Canada, I used to come over
for what was then called theCommission for Human Rights,
which met once a year.
And so I would come over for acouple of weeks in the
springtime when they weremeeting and do some advocacy and
just realized the opportunitiesthat there were to represent
(12:48):
those Christians from around theworld who were persecuted for
their faith.
And so this was about 2005,2006.
Another colleague of mine and Imade a recommendation to the
WEA that they start an office inGeneva, a permanent office
here.
But that didn't happen forseveral more years.
And it was actually someone whoworked for the Swiss Alliance
(13:11):
who saw the need, who saw the UNhere, who said, you know, WEA,
we really need an office.
And we in the Swiss Allianceare willing to support it.
So since 2012, there has beenan office here.
And actually, the WEA has hadwhat's called special
consultative status at the UNsince 1997.
(13:33):
So we've been actually doingadvocacy where we could.
And it's, you know, it wasfly-in visits for a long period
of time, like I did from Canada.
Um, but now that there's beenan office here since 2012, we're
able to do so much more.
And we're able to actuallyconnect with our national
(13:56):
alliances to the work that'sgoing on here in Geneva on human
rights.
And I actually skipped a stepwhen you were talking about, you
know, how how does thisactually work in practice from
missions to the advocacy work wedo?
Because once you plantchurches, even in a restricted
country, when you get a coupleof churches, they want to form
(14:19):
an alliance.
So that's why the WEA ends uphaving national alliances in
some very restricted countries.
And it is my privilege to workwith some of those to bring
their voice here to Geneva.
Brian Stiller (14:34):
What does special consultative status mean?
And what does it, what leversdoes it allow you to exercise or
to use in in dealing with thepersecuted Christian?
Janet Epp Buckingham (14:48):
Well, special consultative status
means that I have an annualpass, a nice little blue badge
that lets me into the UN.
So I if if you walk up to theUN doors, they'll say, I'm
sorry, sir, you cannot come in.
(15:09):
And so my status allows me tocome and go freely into the UN.
I am able to sign up to havewhat are called side events,
which is, you know, during ahuman rights council session, we
can hold an hour-long meetingand bring in speakers, and then
(15:31):
diplomats will actually come toour side event and hear directly
from people from the persecutedchurch.
Um, I really like being able todo that because it's a it's a
really good opportunity to reachpeople who really can make a
difference.
We have the opportunity to makeoral statements.
So right now, the Human RightsCouncil is holding a session.
(15:55):
They hold three month-longsessions during the year, and
they're in the middle of asession right now.
And we made an oral statementtoday on the persecuted church
in Nigeria.
Those statements are 90seconds.
You have to be very focused inwhat you say, but you have to
(16:15):
have this status to be able tomake those oral statements.
Now, we can get passes as wellfor other people.
So I have an annual pass.
I can come and go at any time,but I have with me for two weeks
two emerging leaders fromAfrican countries, one from
(16:35):
Nigeria and one from Kenya.
And I could get them a pass fora two-week period.
And it was actually theNigerian who was able to make
the oral statement on Nigeriatoday.
I'm telling you, it was verypowerful.
Brian Stiller (16:49):
What's it like to represent evangelicals in
international institutions?
Janet Epp Buckingham (16:54):
We get a mixed response.
I'm not gonna lie.
There are some people whoreally like us.
So I said that we had somebodyhere, an emerging leader here
from Kenya today.
I was able to make anappointment for him to meet with
his ambassador.
So he met with the ambassadorto the UN from Kenya, and Kenya
(17:18):
is a very Christian country.
And she said to us, she said, Iam a Christian and I really
appreciate the fact that you'rehere and that you're doing the
kind of work you're doing.
So we're we do work at thediplomatic level, and some
diplomats here, of course, somediplomats are going to be
Christians.
Some of the people who arediplomatic staff are Christians.
(17:41):
There are other Christian NGOswho work here.
There are other organizationsthat are advocating for some
other human rights that are seemto be at odds with
Christianity.
I've I've had some strongwords, not you know in a large
(18:01):
setting, but even in abehind-the-scenes setting with
some Muslim diplomats and thediplomats from Islamic
countries.
We sometimes have had peopletake issue with our stand on
human sexuality.
We don't all agree with eachother, but one of the things
about being in a diplomaticsetting is that we have to speak
(18:23):
diplomatic language.
And obviously, not allcountries agree with each other,
but the language of diplomacyallows you to kind of take a
step outside of the angry heateddebate and use diplomatic
language to express your pointof view and recognize that not
(18:43):
everyone's going to agree withit.
But we do get quite a fewpeople who appreciate what we
have to say.
And does any of this make anydifference?
It does.
For one thing, it's importantto give people a voice.
So people who are beingpersecuted, we are able to, we
(19:06):
are able to speak for them.
And I regularly, even ifthey're not able to come to
Geneva, I regularly hear fromour National Alliances, thank
you for speaking up for us.
We feel very isolated andalone, and knowing that you are
our voice in Geneva makes adifference.
(19:28):
Sometimes we're able to bringpeople from those countries.
So I brought a pastor fromTurkey, and Turkey has been
facing quite a few restrictionson churches, and it's it's hard
for them to meet.
Foreign pastors have beenbanned from the country.
So they've had certainly someissues.
(19:51):
And I brought him to Geneva andhe spoke at a side event, and
he was so grateful for that.
And then he had the opportunityto speak to the US Commission
on International ReligiousFreedom.
Maybe the American governmentwill take it up with better, you
know, with more force.
(20:11):
There's also another mechanismthat we're taking up on behalf
of Turkey, specifically on theforeign ministry workers.
So we have a number ofdifferent ways that we are
engaging on specific issues.
Sometimes we see some smalladvances.
Um, a report that we filedearlier this year was used as
(20:36):
testimony in a refugee case fora Rohingya Christian.
We always think it here aboutRohingya Muslims.
This man is a RohingyaChristian, so he faces kind of
double persecution, and he wasable to get refugee status in
the US based on information thatwas in our report that we had
made to the UN.
(20:56):
So that I consider it's a smallvictory, and I like to see
bigger victories, but it takesit takes a long time.
As one person put it to me,this is like running a marathon.
It's definitely not thehundred-meter dash.
Brian Stiller (21:12):
What are some of the issues that evangelicals
face, or Christians in general,uh face uh in particular
countries?
Janet Epp Buckingham (21:20):
One of the issues that's quite pervasive,
and it's happening in manydifferent parts of the world, is
governments puttingrestrictions on legal status for
religious institutions.
So they say, oh, we're justregulating religion.
But then they put theserestrictions on, well, if you
(21:44):
want to register as a church,you have to have 2,000
adherents.
Well, that makes it pretty hardto start a house church
somewhere.
And so we're seeing these beingused to keep certain types of
churches out.
And if you hold a religiousservice without having that
(22:09):
legal status, it's considered anillegal meeting.
And then the pastor can bearrested.
So we see in country aftercountry, when when you see, oh,
this pastor was being arrested,you're like, well, what kind of
law are they arresting a pastorfor?
It's almost always holding anillegal meeting with under one
(22:30):
of these very restrictive kindsof regimes.
Now, there are other placeswhere it is much more restricted
to convert to Christianity fromIslam, for example.
Many Islamic countries havewhat they call apostasy laws.
(22:51):
So if you leave Islam andbecome a Christian, you're
apostate.
And so you you that's acriminal offense.
And in some countries, it itcarries the death penalty.
So that's incredibly serious.
There's also social pressure.
(23:12):
So in a place like Pakistan,for example, a lot of times it's
mob violence againstChristians.
And so that's a little bit moredifficult to deal with.
And what the kind of advocacy Ido is to say, government, you
need to protect people.
(23:32):
You need to protect yourcitizens, you need to do some
things that are going tode-escalate conflict before it
turns into violence.
I have another colleague whoworks at the diplomatic level in
my office, Gaetan Roy, anotherCanadian, actually.
So Brian and Gaetan and I areall Canadians.
(23:54):
So I'm gonna cheer forCanadians just for a moment
here.
Let me wave my flag.
Um, Gaetan actually lives inGermany, but he's been doing a
lot of work in Pakistan to tryto develop government-sponsored
peace committees that willinclude Muslims and Christians
and be in different communitiesthat will de-escalate conflict
(24:15):
before it turns into violence.
So sometimes you have to bekind of creative about solutions
you might propose to agovernment.
There's certainly not aone-size-fits-all answer to all
of the persecution we're seeing.
Do governments listen to you?
They do.
It requires developing somerelationships.
(24:38):
You have to build some trustwith governments.
You know, if they're sometimesthey're already familiar with a
national alliance in theircountry, but if they're not, you
have to build a level of trust.
Sometimes it's helpful to say,you know, we are a global
organization that representsover 600 million evangelical
(25:02):
Christians around the world.
That tends to get a little bitof an open door, even in very
restricted countries, and thenintroduce them to the local
alliance.
The local alliance might bequite small.
You know, it might have only afew thousand people involved
with it.
But if they're under very heavypersecution, even that
(25:26):
introduction and getting themrecognized by the government as
even existing can be thebeginning of a new relationship
for them so that they can try tohave a little bit more of a
measure of freedom.
Brian Stiller (25:42):
Janet, obviously, we're dealing with the winds of
change.
Uh China, which is a countrythat I've been to a number of
times, it's changing uh by theway, by way of surveillance and
requirements.
So globally, though, is thereis there a movement among
nations to be more tolerant ofreligious for religious freedom,
(26:06):
or is the opposite occurring?
Is there any trend that you'reobserving?
Janet Epp Buckingham (26:11):
Well, I am observing this trend of trying
to regulate and controlreligion.
Now, China has long tried tocontrol religion.
So that's that part of thingsis not new.
What's difficult and new isthat they have incredible AI
technology that allows them tohave a lot of surveillance on
(26:35):
Christians, and Christians canno longer hide from the
government.
But in more and more countries,I'm seeing this trend towards
governments wanting to have morecontrol.
This is part of governmentsbeing very authoritarian.
We're seeing a rise inauthoritarian governments in
(26:55):
many, many countries.
And of course, religion is athreat.
Any religion is a threat.
But Christianity they see oftenas a threat because it's a
countervailing force togovernment.
And often religious leaderswill feel free to criticize a
government if they feel thatit's going in the wrong
(27:17):
direction.
And so governments do have atendency, particularly as they
are more author authoritarian,to have a heavier level of
regulation on churches andreligious communities in
general.
And that often, often that hitsevangelicals more than it hits
(27:40):
other Christians.
Other Christians are moreestablished, they have, you
know, they have buildings, theyhave theological seminaries.
Evangelicals are often the newkids on the block.
And, you know, we may not havea seminary in a country, we may
not have church buildings, we'rein-house churches, and that is
(28:03):
often what gets hit by theregulation.
Brian Stiller (28:07):
Jenna, you're uh you're involved at the
international level uh withgovernments in Geneva.
How does that activity work itsway down to the local
congregational level in aparticular country?
Janet Epp Buckingham (28:23):
That is a really great question.
And it's one that I'm I workvery hard on trying to make
those connections.
So the way the WorldEvangelical Alliance is
organized is we have nineregional structures, regional
evangelical alliances, and thenall the national alliances
(28:44):
belong to a regional alliance.
So it's really helpful for meto be able to go to a regional
alliance meeting and tell themabout what we can do and say,
look, come and talk to me if youare having problems in your
country.
And uh I spoke to theAssociation of Evangelicals in
Africa, which is our largestregion.
(29:04):
Over 50 countries wererepresented there, and I had
quite a number of countries comeand speak to me, and then I can
start working with them to talkabout okay, how can you be
advocating in your country andmaybe advocating at the UN and
(29:25):
we are giving the same messageat the same time.
Now, occasionally we play goodcop, bad cop.
So I'm right now, I I've beenquite critical of one country so
that their national alliancecan come along and say, oh, you
know, let's take that pressure,that international pressure off
(29:46):
you.
Here are some ideas around it.
So we can sometimes workcollaboratively that way.
And you know, the nationalalliances have denominations and
churches that.
Our members, and so they'revery conscious of what the
issues are locally and how tospeak to their own governments.
(30:09):
Every now and then they want meto come to their country and go
with them to their governmentmeeting because they say, you
know what, we need aninternational presence.
If you come here, they'lllisten to us more.
And I'm like, if that's whatworks for you, let's do it that
way.
So different strategies fordifferent countries, but my goal
(30:32):
is always to try to empower theNational Alliance to be
stronger and to be able to speakfor itself, but also connect
with what we're advocating atthe international level.
Brian Stiller (30:46):
Janet, let's let me take you to one country,
India, for example, a countrywhere the church is growing at a
remarkable rate, and yet aplace where the Hinduvata, the
cultural religion is rising withpolitical strength to both
impact Muslim and Christianpresence.
(31:08):
How does your office work inrelationship to the dynamics
within India?
Janet Epp Buckingham (31:16):
Yeah, India is a country that we have
been doing advocacy for asthings have been getting more
challenging there, and we havebeen doing advocacy for for a
while.
And we've we've had a number ofdifferent approaches.
We raise issues related toIndia in every single human
(31:37):
rights council session.
We we do it in different ways.
Sometimes it's writtenstatements, sometimes it's oral
statements, sometimes it's aside event.
The there is actually also theUN human rights system has some
special experts.
They call them specialrapporteurs on certain issues.
(31:58):
And there's one on freedom ofreligion or belief.
She makes two reports a year,and her next report is going to
be focused on freedom ofreligion or belief and death
issues, particularly focused onbeing able to bury your dead in
accordance with your religiousfaith.
Well, one of the big issues inIndia right now is Hindus
(32:21):
mobbing a Christian funeral.
I'm gonna cry, and not allowingthem to bury their deceased,
their loved one.
And like literally forming abarrier in front of the local
cemetery.
It is like heart-wrenching tothink about this.
(32:43):
But apparently they organizethese groups on WhatsApp and
they bring in like very militantHindus from surrounding
communities to prevent and tointerfere with Christian
funerals.
So that is what our report isgoing to be focused on to the
(33:03):
special rapporteur, is going tobe focused specifically on that
issue in India.
But there are a lot ofdifferent issues that they have
been facing in different places.
But it it is, we use everyopportunity to raise the issue,
but we know that the Indiangovernment right now is getting
(33:24):
a lot of political mileage outof being very restrictive on
minorities.
It's not just the Christians,it's also the Muslims, it's also
the Sikhs in India.
We have held in the past a sideevent with all of the different
minority religions talkingabout how they're facing
(33:45):
different kinds of restrictions.
And my colleague, who is nolonger with this office, but my
colleague was the moderator forthat.
And they actually had socialmedia bots that were spreading
disinformation about him.
No, I kind of feel that's whenyou know you're being effective,
is when a government targetsyou.
(34:07):
I mean, they were saying thingslike he'd been a missionary in
India and been kicked out of thecountry for you know, spreading
falsehoods.
At that point, he'd never beento India before.
Like he'd never even been inthe country.
So so we do know that theIndian government takes this
very seriously, but at themoment, they're not very open
(34:30):
and willing to change.
But we will keep working atthings.
You know, Pakistan for many,many years had a government that
was very resistant to change.
And now they're open to ustalking about having multi-faith
peace committees incommunities.
So you never know, like overtime, fortunately, these are
(34:52):
democratic governments.
Over time, governments change,and we keep working so that when
there is a change ofgovernment, when there is an
openness, we are ready to stepin with positive solutions.
Brian Stiller (35:08):
Janet, you have extensive experience as a
lawyer, as working on religiousliberties issues.
But over this last period oftime in in overseeing the Geneva
office, what have you learnedprofessionally and personally
about this larger issue ofreligious freedom?
Janet Epp Buckingham (35:29):
I've I've learned that we have more allies
than I thought we did.
There there seems to be quite afew organizations that promote
religious freedom.
One of the other things I'velearned is that it is really,
really important to engage withpeople who are willing to engage
(35:53):
with you.
Sometimes I think that's asecular organization.
Like I what what interest wouldthey have in this issue?
And then I find, oh, theyactually have three Christians
that work there.
And so they're quietlypromoting freedom of religion
within whatever other topicthey're dealing with.
(36:16):
So I've actually found someallies in surprising places and
from surprising countries.
So it's always worth trying toengage with people and trying to
have conversations anddiscussions and see where you
can find areas of collaboration.
Brian Stiller (36:34):
Janet, this issue of religious persecution has
become more front page news thanit has been, at least in my
lifetime.
That results in a lot of peopleinterested in doing something.
What can a person do?
What might a person read orunderstand to help them better
(36:59):
know what's going on?
And what action might they takefrom where they sit as a
student or as a lay person or asa retired person in their own
world?
Janet Epp Buckingham (37:14):
There's a great deal of information
available about those who arebeing persecuted for their
faith.
There's way more than thereused to be.
It's often not reported inmainstream media.
So you do need to go lookingfor it.
There are some Christian mediaorganizations, you know,
(37:38):
Christianity Today, there'sanother one, Christian Daily
International, that both carrystories about religious
persecution.
There are also a number oforganizations, you know, in in
different countries, they havedifferent names.
So I'm I don't want to name theones that I know in a
particular country because theymight have a different name in
your in your country.
(37:59):
Every year there is in Novemberthe International Day of Prayer
for the Persecuted Church.
And it is a really goodopportunity to raise the issue
in your church community and topray for those who are
persecuted.
That is what they ask for most.
Most please pray for us.
(38:19):
They they want prayers forstrength, for boldness, that God
would continue to encouragethem.
There, just as you read aboutglobal situations, you can be
aware of the Christians that areinvolved in some of these
conflicts.
One of the things I'm veryaware of is Christians who are
(38:42):
persecuted often are pushed offtheir land.
My emerging leader from Nigeriatalks about three and a half
million Christians have beenpushed off their land and are
living in internally displacedcamps, like the equivalent of
refugee camps.
(39:03):
Some of them don't have, youknow, food and shelter and
sanitation.
So a lot of the organizationsthat support the Persecuted
Church support these kinds ofministries that are bringing
relief and aid to Christians whoare facing very difficult
(39:24):
circumstances because of theirfaith.
So I would encourage people tosupport these kinds of
organizations, but fundamentallylearn more and pray, maybe even
pick a country where Christiansare being persecuted and pray
for the Christians in thatcountry.
Brian Stiller (39:41):
Janet, thanks so much for joining us on
Evangelical 360.
Janet Epp Buckingham (39:45):
It's a great pleasure, and uh thank you
for the opportunity.
Brian Stiller (39:51):
Thanks, Janet, for joining me today, and thanks
for the work you and yourcolleagues do on behalf of
people around the world whoselives have been turned upside
down by governments and peoplewho are determined to seize from
them the rights to worship asthey choose.
And you, my friend, thanks forbeing a part of the conversation
(40:12):
today.
Be sure to subscribe toEvangelical 360 and share this
episode wherever you watch orlisten to this podcast.
If you'd like to learn moreabout today's guest, be sure to
check the show notes for linksand info.
And if you haven't alreadyreceived my free ebook and
newsletter, please go toBrianStiller.com.
Thanks again.
(40:34):
Until next time.
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm your host, Brian Stiller.
Most of us live our lives inrelative ease, free from
intimidation, or from those whomight try and infringe on our
faith or right to believe as wechoose.
As we do, we really are unawareof so many in our world who
(00:31):
today, even as we speak ofhaving to watch who is seeing
them go into a church or listento them share their faith.
That kind of intimidation maycome from a government, police
force, or from another religiouscommunity, or from a neighbor
who, in reporting you, may getyou removed so your house can
(00:51):
become theirs.
Within the echelons of powerwhere countries meet, most of us
are excluded.
It takes people who know theirstuff to speak into those rooms
of governmental and judicialpower.
We need people who understandhow the system works and are
able to finesse legal jargongetting the attention of the
(01:15):
offending country.
Janet Epp Buckingham is one ofthose.
We've worked for years togetherin Canada, but now from her
post in Geneva, she leads theadvocacy team of the World
Evangelical Alliance.
She's the one who presses hardon those countries who diminish
the rights of freedom of faithand religion.
(01:35):
She leads a team of peopleskilled in the art of diplomacy,
not just to make friends, butto find ways so people on the
ground, those overcome byoppression and persecution, are
free to worship and serve theGod they choose.
You're in for a rich moment ofseeing how this global
(01:55):
infrastructure of governmentswork on matters of persecution.
I'm so pleased you've chosen tojoin as part of this podcast.
As you listen, would youconsider sharing this episode
with a friend?
And if you haven't, please hitsubscribe by joining the
conversation on YouTube in thecomments below.
(02:16):
Now to my guest, Janet EppBuckingham.
Janet Epp Buckingham, thanksfor joining us on Evangelical
360.
Janet Epp Buckingham (02:26):
It's great to be with you today.
Brian Stiller (02:28):
Janet, I want to talk about the various
activities that you're involvedin in the Geneva office of the
World Evangelical Alliance.
But these numbers jumped out atme today as I was preparing.
One in seven Christians facepersecution.
Last year, the year 2024, 4,476Christians were killed, 4,700
(02:56):
detained.
380 million Christians live incountries of high levels of
persecution.
In this age, in the 21stcentury, these numbers tend to
alarm me.
Should they?
Janet Epp Buckingham (03:16):
They should.
Now, interestingly, I have metChristians in some of those
countries where there are highlevels of persecution, and I
find them so inspiring becausethey recognize exactly what's
going on and the risk that theyare in, but they want to stay
(03:41):
and share the gospel with theirfamily and friends and bring
them to the saving love ofJesus.
And I am so in awe of them andthe risks that they face.
And one of one of my jobs atthe UN is try to try to try to
(04:04):
change that.
Try to make it so that they arenot facing the kind of
persecution that they are.
But it is very real, the kindof persecution that Christians
around the world are facing.
Brian Stiller (04:20):
But how does a uh Canadian lawyer educator end up
in Geneva managing an officethat deals with advocacy against
persecution?
Janet Epp Buckingham (04:35):
Well, it's interesting, Brian, because I
feel like God has just beenpreparing me for this my whole
life.
And it started back when I wasa young lawyer, and my husband
wanted to do graduate studies atCambridge University in the UK.
And I came into contact withthe Jubilee Center, which is a
(04:58):
Christian public policy thinktank.
I had never heard of such athing before, but God just laid
it on my heart at that time thatHe wanted me to engage in
Christian public policy,whatever that meant.
Well, when I came back toCanada after that, I was
(05:19):
directed to the EvangelicalFellowship of Canada.
And someone named Brian Stillerwas the president then and gave
this young whippersnapperlawyer an opportunity to engage
with the Social ActionCommission, which was engaging
in public policy issues of theday from a Christian
(05:43):
perspective, uh, and then theReligious Liberty Commission.
And uh ultimately I ended updoing my doctorate in freedom of
religion or belief, looking atboth international and Canadian
laws on that subject.
I then was given theopportunity to lead the Ottawa
(06:04):
office of the EvangelicalFellowship of Canada for a year,
which turned into seven years,um, and really gave me a flavor
for how one engages in advocacyfrom a Christian perspective.
And we always have to beconscious, we're speaking on
(06:24):
behalf of the church andChristians.
We want to engage relationally,we want to engage positively,
but we want to make known topolicymakers what we believe and
what is important to us.
Then God led me into workingwith Trinity Western University,
and I directed the LaurentianLeadership Center, which is a
(06:48):
live-learn center that TrinityWestern, which is in British
Columbia, runs in Ottawa.
And students would come for avisiting semester, engage in
public policy internships, and Iwould teach them about Canadian
history from a Christianperspective, and look at our
prime ministers and theirleadership and Christian ethics
(07:11):
from a public policyperspective.
And then in 2022, I retiredfrom that, and the Secretary
General of the World EvangelicalAlliance said, Janet, you seem
to have some extra time on yourhands.
How would you like to engage inpublic policy?
So when I started with theWorld Evangelical Alliance, I
(07:33):
was the director of globaladvocacy.
And so I was still in Canadaand I was providing strategic
oversight to the work of the UN.
And then one of the people whoreported to me, who was the
director of the Geneva officedoing direct advocacy, left
actually to go run a persecutedchurch organization in the US.
(07:57):
And my husband looked at me andsaid, Janet, is God calling you
to that?
You are an advocate at heart.
And I said, I'm not looking fora new career.
What are you talking about?
Well, obviously, he was rightthat God was calling me to that.
But this, this I have thiswonderful title of professor
(08:18):
doctor, because I'm a professoremerita of Trinity Western
University.
I have a doctorate in law, infreedom of religion or belief.
And so I have a lot ofcredibility when I meet with
diplomats, when I meet withpeople who are engaged in the UN
system, who work for the UN inhuman rights, because I have all
(08:40):
the experience and background,and I wrote a book on religious
freedom in Canada.
So I know what I'm talkingabout when I talk about
religious freedom.
Brian Stiller (08:51):
And let me say for people that are listening
that knowing Janet, her ownmodesty, but confidence in her
ability to do the work iscritical when you're facing the
kind of people and issues thatyou face worldwide.
But let me let me come back tothis question.
(09:12):
As evangelicals, we talk aboutthe evangel, the good news of
Jesus.
And at the very heart of ourmessage is Christ coming and
transforming one in life.
How does this caring forpersecuted Christians, of
(09:33):
course, is self-evidentlyimportant, but how does that in
your mind connect with thesharing of the gospel, the good
news of Jesus in the transformedlife?
How does this match?
Janet Epp Buckingham (09:48):
One of the things I've been very conscious
of is years ago, when I wouldgo as a university student to
missions conferences, I went toUrbana many, many decades ago,
and we talked about the 1040window.
And everybody was like, youknow, we need to be evangelizing
(10:10):
in some of these reallyhard-to-reach places.
And by God's grace, there'sbeen a lot of evangelism in some
of these hard places, butthat's where Christians are most
persecuted.
And so a missionary comes,brings the good news, people
come to Christ, they plant achurch, and all of that is
(10:33):
illegal.
And so there's thistransformation that is happening
in these young Christians'lives, but they also have to be
an underground church.
The World Evangelical Alliancehas national alliances in over
140 countries.
Some of those are places wherepeople can't even mention that
(10:57):
they're Christians, and yet theyare being formed in a crucible.
They're being formed underpressure for their faith.
I met one young woman who saidher Muslim family had locked her
in her bedroom for eight years,and she lived for her Christian
(11:22):
friends sneaking Christianliterature into her bedroom.
And she would read it avidly,and when her family found out
about it, they would beat her.
Brian Stiller (11:57):
Okay, let's cut, let's come down to the activity
that you supervise that you headup in Geneva.
How did this World EvangelicalAlliance, the association of
which you and I are a part,evangelicals make up a quarter
of the world's Christians today?
How did this WEA, this group ofnetwork of evangelicals, come
(12:19):
to establish an office inGeneva?
And what's the nature of thatoffice?
Janet Epp Buckingham (12:23):
Well, actually, back when I worked
with the Evangelical Fellowshipof Canada, I used to come over
for what was then called theCommission for Human Rights,
which met once a year.
And so I would come over for acouple of weeks in the
springtime when they weremeeting and do some advocacy and
just realized the opportunitiesthat there were to represent
(12:48):
those Christians from around theworld who were persecuted for
their faith.
And so this was about 2005,2006.
Another colleague of mine and Imade a recommendation to the
WEA that they start an office inGeneva, a permanent office
here.
But that didn't happen forseveral more years.
And it was actually someone whoworked for the Swiss Alliance
(13:11):
who saw the need, who saw the UNhere, who said, you know, WEA,
we really need an office.
And we in the Swiss Allianceare willing to support it.
So since 2012, there has beenan office here.
And actually, the WEA has hadwhat's called special
consultative status at the UNsince 1997.
(13:33):
So we've been actually doingadvocacy where we could.
And it's, you know, it wasfly-in visits for a long period
of time, like I did from Canada.
Um, but now that there's beenan office here since 2012, we're
able to do so much more.
And we're able to actuallyconnect with our national
(13:56):
alliances to the work that'sgoing on here in Geneva on human
rights.
And I actually skipped a stepwhen you were talking about, you
know, how how does thisactually work in practice from
missions to the advocacy work wedo?
Because once you plantchurches, even in a restricted
country, when you get a coupleof churches, they want to form
(14:19):
an alliance.
So that's why the WEA ends uphaving national alliances in
some very restricted countries.
And it is my privilege to workwith some of those to bring
their voice here to Geneva.
Brian Stiller (14:34):
What does special consultative status mean?
And what does it, what leversdoes it allow you to exercise or
to use in in dealing with thepersecuted Christian?
Janet Epp Buckingham (14:48):
Well, special consultative status
means that I have an annualpass, a nice little blue badge
that lets me into the UN.
So I if if you walk up to theUN doors, they'll say, I'm
sorry, sir, you cannot come in.
(15:09):
And so my status allows me tocome and go freely into the UN.
I am able to sign up to havewhat are called side events,
which is, you know, during ahuman rights council session, we
can hold an hour-long meetingand bring in speakers, and then
(15:31):
diplomats will actually come toour side event and hear directly
from people from the persecutedchurch.
Um, I really like being able todo that because it's a it's a
really good opportunity to reachpeople who really can make a
difference.
We have the opportunity to makeoral statements.
So right now, the Human RightsCouncil is holding a session.
(15:55):
They hold three month-longsessions during the year, and
they're in the middle of asession right now.
And we made an oral statementtoday on the persecuted church
in Nigeria.
Those statements are 90seconds.
You have to be very focused inwhat you say, but you have to
(16:15):
have this status to be able tomake those oral statements.
Now, we can get passes as wellfor other people.
So I have an annual pass.
I can come and go at any time,but I have with me for two weeks
two emerging leaders fromAfrican countries, one from
(16:35):
Nigeria and one from Kenya.
And I could get them a pass fora two-week period.
And it was actually theNigerian who was able to make
the oral statement on Nigeriatoday.
I'm telling you, it was verypowerful.
Brian Stiller (16:49):
What's it like to represent evangelicals in
international institutions?
Janet Epp Buckingham (16:54):
We get a mixed response.
I'm not gonna lie.
There are some people whoreally like us.
So I said that we had somebodyhere, an emerging leader here
from Kenya today.
I was able to make anappointment for him to meet with
his ambassador.
So he met with the ambassadorto the UN from Kenya, and Kenya
(17:18):
is a very Christian country.
And she said to us, she said, Iam a Christian and I really
appreciate the fact that you'rehere and that you're doing the
kind of work you're doing.
So we're we do work at thediplomatic level, and some
diplomats here, of course, somediplomats are going to be
Christians.
Some of the people who arediplomatic staff are Christians.
(17:41):
There are other Christian NGOswho work here.
There are other organizationsthat are advocating for some
other human rights that are seemto be at odds with
Christianity.
I've I've had some strongwords, not you know in a large
(18:01):
setting, but even in abehind-the-scenes setting with
some Muslim diplomats and thediplomats from Islamic
countries.
We sometimes have had peopletake issue with our stand on
human sexuality.
We don't all agree with eachother, but one of the things
about being in a diplomaticsetting is that we have to speak
(18:23):
diplomatic language.
And obviously, not allcountries agree with each other,
but the language of diplomacyallows you to kind of take a
step outside of the angry heateddebate and use diplomatic
language to express your pointof view and recognize that not
(18:43):
everyone's going to agree withit.
But we do get quite a fewpeople who appreciate what we
have to say.
And does any of this make anydifference?
It does.
For one thing, it's importantto give people a voice.
So people who are beingpersecuted, we are able to, we
(19:06):
are able to speak for them.
And I regularly, even ifthey're not able to come to
Geneva, I regularly hear fromour National Alliances, thank
you for speaking up for us.
We feel very isolated andalone, and knowing that you are
our voice in Geneva makes adifference.
(19:28):
Sometimes we're able to bringpeople from those countries.
So I brought a pastor fromTurkey, and Turkey has been
facing quite a few restrictionson churches, and it's it's hard
for them to meet.
Foreign pastors have beenbanned from the country.
So they've had certainly someissues.
(19:51):
And I brought him to Geneva andhe spoke at a side event, and
he was so grateful for that.
And then he had the opportunityto speak to the US Commission
on International ReligiousFreedom.
Maybe the American governmentwill take it up with better, you
know, with more force.
(20:11):
There's also another mechanismthat we're taking up on behalf
of Turkey, specifically on theforeign ministry workers.
So we have a number ofdifferent ways that we are
engaging on specific issues.
Sometimes we see some smalladvances.
Um, a report that we filedearlier this year was used as
(20:36):
testimony in a refugee case fora Rohingya Christian.
We always think it here aboutRohingya Muslims.
This man is a RohingyaChristian, so he faces kind of
double persecution, and he wasable to get refugee status in
the US based on information thatwas in our report that we had
made to the UN.
(20:56):
So that I consider it's a smallvictory, and I like to see
bigger victories, but it takesit takes a long time.
As one person put it to me,this is like running a marathon.
It's definitely not thehundred-meter dash.
Brian Stiller (21:12):
What are some of the issues that evangelicals
face, or Christians in general,uh face uh in particular
countries?
Janet Epp Buckingham (21:20):
One of the issues that's quite pervasive,
and it's happening in manydifferent parts of the world, is
governments puttingrestrictions on legal status for
religious institutions.
So they say, oh, we're justregulating religion.
But then they put theserestrictions on, well, if you
(21:44):
want to register as a church,you have to have 2,000
adherents.
Well, that makes it pretty hardto start a house church
somewhere.
And so we're seeing these beingused to keep certain types of
churches out.
And if you hold a religiousservice without having that
(22:09):
legal status, it's considered anillegal meeting.
And then the pastor can bearrested.
So we see in country aftercountry, when when you see, oh,
this pastor was being arrested,you're like, well, what kind of
law are they arresting a pastorfor?
It's almost always holding anillegal meeting with under one
(22:30):
of these very restrictive kindsof regimes.
Now, there are other placeswhere it is much more restricted
to convert to Christianity fromIslam, for example.
Many Islamic countries havewhat they call apostasy laws.
(22:51):
So if you leave Islam andbecome a Christian, you're
apostate.
And so you you that's acriminal offense.
And in some countries, it itcarries the death penalty.
So that's incredibly serious.
There's also social pressure.
(23:12):
So in a place like Pakistan,for example, a lot of times it's
mob violence againstChristians.
And so that's a little bit moredifficult to deal with.
And what the kind of advocacy Ido is to say, government, you
need to protect people.
(23:32):
You need to protect yourcitizens, you need to do some
things that are going tode-escalate conflict before it
turns into violence.
I have another colleague whoworks at the diplomatic level in
my office, Gaetan Roy, anotherCanadian, actually.
So Brian and Gaetan and I areall Canadians.
(23:54):
So I'm gonna cheer forCanadians just for a moment
here.
Let me wave my flag.
Um, Gaetan actually lives inGermany, but he's been doing a
lot of work in Pakistan to tryto develop government-sponsored
peace committees that willinclude Muslims and Christians
and be in different communitiesthat will de-escalate conflict
(24:15):
before it turns into violence.
So sometimes you have to bekind of creative about solutions
you might propose to agovernment.
There's certainly not aone-size-fits-all answer to all
of the persecution we're seeing.
Do governments listen to you?
They do.
It requires developing somerelationships.
(24:38):
You have to build some trustwith governments.
You know, if they're sometimesthey're already familiar with a
national alliance in theircountry, but if they're not, you
have to build a level of trust.
Sometimes it's helpful to say,you know, we are a global
organization that representsover 600 million evangelical
(25:02):
Christians around the world.
That tends to get a little bitof an open door, even in very
restricted countries, and thenintroduce them to the local
alliance.
The local alliance might bequite small.
You know, it might have only afew thousand people involved
with it.
But if they're under very heavypersecution, even that
(25:26):
introduction and getting themrecognized by the government as
even existing can be thebeginning of a new relationship
for them so that they can try tohave a little bit more of a
measure of freedom.
Brian Stiller (25:42):
Janet, obviously, we're dealing with the winds of
change.
Uh China, which is a countrythat I've been to a number of
times, it's changing uh by theway, by way of surveillance and
requirements.
So globally, though, is thereis there a movement among
nations to be more tolerant ofreligious for religious freedom,
(26:06):
or is the opposite occurring?
Is there any trend that you'reobserving?
Janet Epp Buckingham (26:11):
Well, I am observing this trend of trying
to regulate and controlreligion.
Now, China has long tried tocontrol religion.
So that's that part of thingsis not new.
What's difficult and new isthat they have incredible AI
technology that allows them tohave a lot of surveillance on
(26:35):
Christians, and Christians canno longer hide from the
government.
But in more and more countries,I'm seeing this trend towards
governments wanting to have morecontrol.
This is part of governmentsbeing very authoritarian.
We're seeing a rise inauthoritarian governments in
(26:55):
many, many countries.
And of course, religion is athreat.
Any religion is a threat.
But Christianity they see oftenas a threat because it's a
countervailing force togovernment.
And often religious leaderswill feel free to criticize a
government if they feel thatit's going in the wrong
(27:17):
direction.
And so governments do have atendency, particularly as they
are more author authoritarian,to have a heavier level of
regulation on churches andreligious communities in
general.
And that often, often that hitsevangelicals more than it hits
(27:40):
other Christians.
Other Christians are moreestablished, they have, you
know, they have buildings, theyhave theological seminaries.
Evangelicals are often the newkids on the block.
And, you know, we may not havea seminary in a country, we may
not have church buildings, we'rein-house churches, and that is
(28:03):
often what gets hit by theregulation.
Brian Stiller (28:07):
Jenna, you're uh you're involved at the
international level uh withgovernments in Geneva.
How does that activity work itsway down to the local
congregational level in aparticular country?
Janet Epp Buckingham (28:23):
That is a really great question.
And it's one that I'm I workvery hard on trying to make
those connections.
So the way the WorldEvangelical Alliance is
organized is we have nineregional structures, regional
evangelical alliances, and thenall the national alliances
(28:44):
belong to a regional alliance.
So it's really helpful for meto be able to go to a regional
alliance meeting and tell themabout what we can do and say,
look, come and talk to me if youare having problems in your
country.
And uh I spoke to theAssociation of Evangelicals in
Africa, which is our largestregion.
(29:04):
Over 50 countries wererepresented there, and I had
quite a number of countries comeand speak to me, and then I can
start working with them to talkabout okay, how can you be
advocating in your country andmaybe advocating at the UN and
(29:25):
we are giving the same messageat the same time.
Now, occasionally we play goodcop, bad cop.
So I'm right now, I I've beenquite critical of one country so
that their national alliancecan come along and say, oh, you
know, let's take that pressure,that international pressure off
(29:46):
you.
Here are some ideas around it.
So we can sometimes workcollaboratively that way.
And you know, the nationalalliances have denominations and
churches that.
Our members, and so they'revery conscious of what the
issues are locally and how tospeak to their own governments.
(30:09):
Every now and then they want meto come to their country and go
with them to their governmentmeeting because they say, you
know what, we need aninternational presence.
If you come here, they'lllisten to us more.
And I'm like, if that's whatworks for you, let's do it that
way.
So different strategies fordifferent countries, but my goal
(30:32):
is always to try to empower theNational Alliance to be
stronger and to be able to speakfor itself, but also connect
with what we're advocating atthe international level.
Brian Stiller (30:46):
Janet, let's let me take you to one country,
India, for example, a countrywhere the church is growing at a
remarkable rate, and yet aplace where the Hinduvata, the
cultural religion is rising withpolitical strength to both
impact Muslim and Christianpresence.
(31:08):
How does your office work inrelationship to the dynamics
within India?
Janet Epp Buckingham (31:16):
Yeah, India is a country that we have
been doing advocacy for asthings have been getting more
challenging there, and we havebeen doing advocacy for for a
while.
And we've we've had a number ofdifferent approaches.
We raise issues related toIndia in every single human
(31:37):
rights council session.
We we do it in different ways.
Sometimes it's writtenstatements, sometimes it's oral
statements, sometimes it's aside event.
The there is actually also theUN human rights system has some
special experts.
They call them specialrapporteurs on certain issues.
(31:58):
And there's one on freedom ofreligion or belief.
She makes two reports a year,and her next report is going to
be focused on freedom ofreligion or belief and death
issues, particularly focused onbeing able to bury your dead in
accordance with your religiousfaith.
Well, one of the big issues inIndia right now is Hindus
(32:21):
mobbing a Christian funeral.
I'm gonna cry, and not allowingthem to bury their deceased,
their loved one.
And like literally forming abarrier in front of the local
cemetery.
It is like heart-wrenching tothink about this.
(32:43):
But apparently they organizethese groups on WhatsApp and
they bring in like very militantHindus from surrounding
communities to prevent and tointerfere with Christian
funerals.
So that is what our report isgoing to be focused on to the
(33:03):
special rapporteur, is going tobe focused specifically on that
issue in India.
But there are a lot ofdifferent issues that they have
been facing in different places.
But it it is, we use everyopportunity to raise the issue,
but we know that the Indiangovernment right now is getting
(33:24):
a lot of political mileage outof being very restrictive on
minorities.
It's not just the Christians,it's also the Muslims, it's also
the Sikhs in India.
We have held in the past a sideevent with all of the different
minority religions talkingabout how they're facing
(33:45):
different kinds of restrictions.
And my colleague, who is nolonger with this office, but my
colleague was the moderator forthat.
And they actually had socialmedia bots that were spreading
disinformation about him.
No, I kind of feel that's whenyou know you're being effective,
is when a government targetsyou.
(34:07):
I mean, they were saying thingslike he'd been a missionary in
India and been kicked out of thecountry for you know, spreading
falsehoods.
At that point, he'd never beento India before.
Like he'd never even been inthe country.
So so we do know that theIndian government takes this
very seriously, but at themoment, they're not very open
(34:30):
and willing to change.
But we will keep working atthings.
You know, Pakistan for many,many years had a government that
was very resistant to change.
And now they're open to ustalking about having multi-faith
peace committees incommunities.
So you never know, like overtime, fortunately, these are
(34:52):
democratic governments.
Over time, governments change,and we keep working so that when
there is a change ofgovernment, when there is an
openness, we are ready to stepin with positive solutions.
Brian Stiller (35:08):
Janet, you have extensive experience as a
lawyer, as working on religiousliberties issues.
But over this last period oftime in in overseeing the Geneva
office, what have you learnedprofessionally and personally
about this larger issue ofreligious freedom?
Janet Epp Buckingham (35:29):
I've I've learned that we have more allies
than I thought we did.
There there seems to be quite afew organizations that promote
religious freedom.
One of the other things I'velearned is that it is really,
really important to engage withpeople who are willing to engage
(35:53):
with you.
Sometimes I think that's asecular organization.
Like I what what interest wouldthey have in this issue?
And then I find, oh, theyactually have three Christians
that work there.
And so they're quietlypromoting freedom of religion
within whatever other topicthey're dealing with.
(36:16):
So I've actually found someallies in surprising places and
from surprising countries.
So it's always worth trying toengage with people and trying to
have conversations anddiscussions and see where you
can find areas of collaboration.
Brian Stiller (36:34):
Janet, this issue of religious persecution has
become more front page news thanit has been, at least in my
lifetime.
That results in a lot of peopleinterested in doing something.
What can a person do?
What might a person read orunderstand to help them better
(36:59):
know what's going on?
And what action might they takefrom where they sit as a
student or as a lay person or asa retired person in their own
world?
Janet Epp Buckingham (37:14):
There's a great deal of information
available about those who arebeing persecuted for their
faith.
There's way more than thereused to be.
It's often not reported inmainstream media.
So you do need to go lookingfor it.
There are some Christian mediaorganizations, you know,
(37:38):
Christianity Today, there'sanother one, Christian Daily
International, that both carrystories about religious
persecution.
There are also a number oforganizations, you know, in in
different countries, they havedifferent names.
So I'm I don't want to name theones that I know in a
particular country because theymight have a different name in
your in your country.
(37:59):
Every year there is in Novemberthe International Day of Prayer
for the Persecuted Church.
And it is a really goodopportunity to raise the issue
in your church community and topray for those who are
persecuted.
That is what they ask for most.
Most please pray for us.
(38:19):
They they want prayers forstrength, for boldness, that God
would continue to encouragethem.
There, just as you read aboutglobal situations, you can be
aware of the Christians that areinvolved in some of these
conflicts.
One of the things I'm veryaware of is Christians who are
(38:42):
persecuted often are pushed offtheir land.
My emerging leader from Nigeriatalks about three and a half
million Christians have beenpushed off their land and are
living in internally displacedcamps, like the equivalent of
refugee camps.
(39:03):
Some of them don't have, youknow, food and shelter and
sanitation.
So a lot of the organizationsthat support the Persecuted
Church support these kinds ofministries that are bringing
relief and aid to Christians whoare facing very difficult
(39:24):
circumstances because of theirfaith.
So I would encourage people tosupport these kinds of
organizations, but fundamentallylearn more and pray, maybe even
pick a country where Christiansare being persecuted and pray
for the Christians in thatcountry.
Brian Stiller (39:41):
Janet, thanks so much for joining us on
Evangelical 360.
Janet Epp Buckingham (39:45):
It's a great pleasure, and uh thank you
for the opportunity.
Brian Stiller (39:51):
Thanks, Janet, for joining me today, and thanks
for the work you and yourcolleagues do on behalf of
people around the world whoselives have been turned upside
down by governments and peoplewho are determined to seize from
them the rights to worship asthey choose.
And you, my friend, thanks forbeing a part of the conversation
(40:12):
today.
Be sure to subscribe toEvangelical 360 and share this
episode wherever you watch orlisten to this podcast.
If you'd like to learn moreabout today's guest, be sure to
check the show notes for linksand info.
And if you haven't alreadyreceived my free ebook and
newsletter, please go toBrianStiller.com.
Thanks again.
(40:34):
Until next time.
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