October 31, 2025 • 42 mins
What makes a mid-century Oxford don the go-to guide for people wrestling with faith, doubt, and meaning today? In this episode we welcome back esteemed historian Dr. Mark Noll as he helps us explore how C.S. Lewis became a trusted voice in American life, why his work crosses denominational lines, and how his unique blend of logic and imagination keeps winning new readers.
We start with the story: a brilliant student who lost his faith, survived the trenches of World War I, and slowly returned to Christianity through moral reasoning and wonder. Dr. Noll walks us through Clive Staples' early scholarship, his wartime talks to RAF airmen, and the BBC broadcasts that taught him clarity and brevity. Then the pivot: The Screwtape Letters explodes in the U.S., Macmillan Publishers rolls out more titles, and soon Mere Christianity and the Chronicles of Narnia anchor a new kind of public faith—thoughtful, accessible, and deeply human.
Along the way, we unpack why Lewis resonated first with Roman Catholic academics, why evangelicals embraced him later, and how Mere Christianity let him speak across traditions without flattening convictions. We also look at the space trilogy’s moral universe, the stark honesty of A Grief Observed, and the enduring pull of Aslan’s world. Mark argues that Lewis’ refusal to chase headlines is exactly why he feels current: he wrote about conscience, choice, and meaning, not the news cycle. That timelessness, paired with luminous storytelling, makes his books surprisingly portable across languages and cultures.
If you’re new to Lewis, we offer clear starting points based on temperament—reasons, wonder, or lament—and explain how each path reveals the same center: reality is morally textured and grace interrupts. If you’re a longtime reader, you’ll appreciate fresh context on his American reception and why his scholarship still matters.
If you'd like to learn more from Dr. Mark Noll you can purchase his book, C.S. Lewis in America: Readings and Reception, and read his work through publishing partners.
And please don't forget to share this episode and join the conversation on YouTube!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brian Stiller (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm your host, Brian Stiller.
Who would have guessed that anEnglish professor in the
nineteen forties in Oxford andCambridge would become not only
widely read but widely trustedin the pursuit of faith in a
secular age?
C.S.
(00:30):
Lewis was one of a kind.
Today in this age of spiritualquests and denial, his name
comes up again and again.
My friend historian Mark Nollhas written about this very
matter also asking why anAmerican audience would
gravitate to his decades oldliterature.
(00:51):
Just for your information, MarkNoll, a preeminent historian of
the Church in North America, isan historian who has been so
helpful to me over the years tounderstand the world of faith I
occupy, where it came from, andhow I can see it better today.
And in this book, C.
S.
Lewis in America he not onlyopens us to who in America took
(01:15):
him in, but why C.
S.
Lewis has been critical to manyof us in our literary and faith
journeys.
His writings of logic andmystery bridge those two worlds
like no one I've read.
That's why Mark today will helpus think about his value to our
lives, and it may stir up yourmind to read him again or for
(01:39):
the very first time.
And thanks to you for being apart of this podcast.
As you listen, would youconsider sharing this episode
with a friend?
And if you haven't, please hitthe subscribe button by joining
the conversation on YouTube inthe comments below.
Now to my guest, historian MarkNoll.
(02:02):
Mark Noll, thanks for joiningus again on Evangelical 360.
Mark Noll (02:07):
It's my privilege, Brian.
I've uh enjoyed listening tosome of the podcasts, and even I
don't do podcasts, but some ofyours have been grabbers.
Brian Stiller (02:17):
Well, uh I'm a I'm a kind of a novice
historian.
I did my undergraduate inhistory, and I've read, I think,
most of your books, but I wasfascinated by this book, C.S.
Lewis in America, uh, whichcame out not long ago.
(02:37):
And I'm both fascinated in C.S.
Lewis as a writer, but I'm alsointerested in how those people,
their lives, their writings,their ideas roll down from
generation to generation.
And so when I read this book, Ithought, Mark, here's my way of
(03:00):
bringing together one of myfavorite writers and one of my
favorite historians, so we canhave a chat about what's going
on in the world today and howthe past is impacting today, and
uh and uh asking you to kind ofput your prophet's hat on, uh,
which is the antithesis to beinga historian, and we think about
(03:21):
the future.
So uh, Mark, thanks for joiningus and C.
S.
Lewis in America today.
Maybe for some who are thatfamiliar with C.S.
Lewis, maybe you could give usa thumbnail sketch on who he is
and what he wrote and uh hisimpact.
Mark Noll (03:38):
The book actually covers America and attention to
C.
S.
Lewis in his early days, so upuntil 1947 when he appeared on
the cover of Time magazine.
But what people werediscovering then is the same
thing that people are continuingto discover today about C.
S.
Lewis.
So he's born in NorthernIreland in Belfast, 1898.
(03:59):
He is a uh precocious young manin his learning and in his
sensitivity to the world.
So his mother dies when he'syoung, maybe nine or ten years
old.
He's shipped off to boardingschools by his father.
It's clear that he's very, verybright.
He's clear that he's sensitiveto morality.
(04:20):
He loses his faith in boardingschool, partly because he had
prayed that his mother, who wassuffering from cancer, would be
healed, and she wasn't.
His father sends him to studyprivately with a schoolmaster in
England, whom the father hadhad as a regular schoolmaster.
(04:41):
Kirkpatrick was his name, andLewis did study privately 1914
to 1917, in in order to prepareto be prepared to go to the
University of Oxford atCambridge.
He's admitted to Oxford afterWorld War I has begun, in part
because admission standards arelower.
(05:02):
And that's actually a curiositywhen we think about the
brilliance of C.S.
Lewis, that he was admitted toOxford only because they needed
students.
His math was terrible,everything else was wonderful.
He volunteers for the Britishmilitary.
He serves on the Western Frontin the front in France.
(05:26):
He's wounded.
He comes back to Britain.
He's in convalescence for awhile.
Then after the war, he returnsto his studies and he has a
brilliant career as anundergraduate at Oxford.
He does a, what we would say inthe U.S.
is a triple major, uh, theGreek and Roman classics,
philosophy, and English.
(05:46):
He then obtains a teachingposition at Oxford, and he's
there for uh the next 30 yearsuntil he as a mature uh scholar
in the mid-50s, he secures aposition at Cambridge
University.
The really interesting thingabout uh C.S.
Lewis is his sensitivity tomorality, his sensitivity to uh
(06:10):
the life of the mind and the waythose develop.
He wrote an autobiography andpublished in the 1950s,
mid-1950s, called Surprised byJoy, in which he traces the
course of his early life as onewho, as a very, very bright
person, turns away from theChristianity of his inheritance
(06:31):
and then gradually is broughtback.
Philosophical reasoning, moralreasoning pushes him toward
accepting God, theism.
And then by the early 1930s, hehe actually calls himself the
most reluctant convert inChristendom when he acknowledges
Christ and returns to theChristian faith.
(06:52):
What sets Lewis apart, and thiswas very obvious in the uh
early period that I was lookingat, but it continues to be
obvious today, is his desire tocommunicate broadly on Christian
topics, but also his desire tobe a first-order, reputable
(07:12):
scholar of English literature.
So in the 1930s, he publishes avery, actually, it's difficult
to read now, but a verycomplicated counterpart to the
Pilgrim's Progress called thePilgrim's Regress.
It's an allegory about how hisintellectual journey led him
(07:33):
through all sorts ofcontemporary modern ways of
thinking until he returned toChristian faith.
The Pilgrim's Regress ispublished in 1935 or so.
It's read in America with someappreciation, but there's no
particular uh uh population andno particular audience for this.
Then for the next five or sixyears, he mostly publishes uh
(07:57):
works of literary criticism.
There's a there is eventually avery important book on Milton's
Paradise Lost.
He publishes a series of essayson medieval literature, uh, The
Allegory of Love, in which hesays the high renaissance in
Britain is really important forbringing together courtly love
(08:18):
and married love, which isactually an interesting uh
development early on.
But still, he's not much knownin America.
There is a uh a number ofprofessional journals that
review these books, and thenLewis has something of a name.
The really importantdevelopment for Lewis' later
career place outside of theclassroom and outside of his
(08:41):
life as an author, when he'sasked at the start of World War
II to bring lectures toservicemen, usually the RAF, on
Christian topics.
What that urged him to do is tothink about how to communicate
important Christian truths in away that would be presentable to
(09:03):
a broader public.
And as he went on, he he gotmuch better at being concise,
which of course is not anacademic uh uh specialty, much
better at being concise, muchbetter at bringing together
clear conceptual presentationwith forceful imaginative
(09:23):
writing.
He's asked in these early daysif he would bring uh radio
broadcasts on the BBC,introducing Christian faith, and
he did so in the manner that hehad learned how to talk to the
troops.
And so we have a series ofradio broadcasts that are done
in the roughly 1940, 1941, andthen those broadcasts have begun
(09:48):
to be published in booklets,but there's no real resonance in
America yet.
And there's no great popularityof C.S.
Lewis even in Britain, althoughpeople know who he is, until in
1942, Lewis has published inBritain the Screw Tape Letters,
an imaginary dialogue between asenior devil and a junior devil
(10:11):
who has the responsibility forone individual in wartime
London.
These uh screw tape letters arepublished uh serially in in
Britain and then brought out inthe book in uh February of 1942.
It's republished in America in1943 in February, and there's an
immediate enthusiasm for thiswriter.
(10:33):
Most of the enthusiasm is justthe wonderful device of
presenting the Christian faithalways backwards.
The senior devil is alwayscounseling the junior devil
about how to work against theChristian influences that's
coming to the subject.
It really is just staggeringlyinnovative, funny, clear, but
(10:59):
also poignant and helpful.
What was intriguing to me inlooking at the American
responses to the C.S.
Lewis is Maine Americanpublications, the New York
Times, the New York HeraldTribune, the Los Angeles Times,
that were enthusiastic about thethe uh screw taped letters.
(11:21):
Mainline Protestants in theU.S.
were pretty enthusiastic.
Evangelical Protestants werenot.
And maybe, Brian, we we shouldfind out later why it was that
the tremendous enthusiasm forC.S.
Lewis in evangelical circlescomes later rather than earlier.
The people who fastened on toLewis first happened to be
(11:41):
learned academic Roman Catholicswho had known something about
his earlier literary work andcould combine their analysis of
that literary work with now thepopularity of the screw tape
letters.
Macmillan was Lewis'spublisher.
They saw the enthusiasm for thescrew taped letters and they
(12:02):
immediately rolled out severalother works, including some of
the uh the broadcast uh diet.
I'll look at my uh list just tobe sure I can get the order
right.
But then uh they also broughtout uh the first of Lewis's uh
space novels, so sciencefiction.
(12:22):
He had been a great uhenthusiast for science fiction,
but did but realized that therewasn't really often a lot of
moral content.
So he had published earlier outof a book called Out of the
Silent Planet, which uh it is afictional journey of someone
from Earth to Mars, where hefinds out that the problems of
(12:43):
Earth, warfare, strife,contention are not present.
Why?
Because the Earth has become asilent planet in the control of
an evil spirit, whereas Mars wasa planet that was still
dominated by the one true God.
Of course, they don't use theword one true God.
(13:04):
Macmillan rushes that book intoprint.
Macmillan rushes the first ofthe radio broadcasts into print,
and C.S.
Lewis's popularity goes on fromthere.
The I ended in 1947 when Lewisis a really popular person, but
the great worldwide popularitycomes just a little bit later.
The first of Lewis's storiesfor children, the Narnia Tales,
(13:27):
is published in 1950.
The book Mere Christianity thatpulls together the booklets
that had come from the radiobroadcast appear only in 1952.
So you have a period that I waslooking at in particular, where
there's a kind of scatteredappreciation for C.
S.
Lewis, academic, Christianapologist, fiction writer.
(13:50):
But by the time we get to the1950s and 1960s, including now,
a lot of enthusiasm byevangelical Protestants as well
as other Christians, C.
S.
Lewis becomes the figure thathe is.
And Brian, just before speakingto you today, I checked Amazon
for best-selling books.
Mere Christianity is the numberone book today in Christian
(14:18):
apologetics.
It's number 38 in all of books.
So you look at Amazon, what arethe most purchased books right
now, and right there is MereChristianity.
Uh it's it's number one inbooks of essays.
And books of essays of the topten of Amazon, three of them are
(14:42):
CSOs.
So in an age where there's justtremendous concentration and
focus on what's done now, withimmediate desire to have an
instant analysis of things thatare happening in the present,
you have the appearance of thesebooks.
Now, they're not ancient, butfrom the 40s and the 50s, that
(15:04):
are still selling, stillattracting readers, and still
making a difference.
That's a very abbreviatedhistory of a very influential
writing career, but it points tothe fact that this person who
is rooted in his own times,before World War I, during World
War I, before World War II,during World War II, with
(15:26):
literature not exactlyaddressing the times
specifically, but coming out ofthose contexts, is literature
that continues to have an appealto this day.
Brian Stiller (15:36):
Mark, you're uh without doubt the foremost
historian of Christianity inNorth America.
So why would C.S.
Lewis attract your attention tospend your time in research and
writing?
What was there as an historianlooking at the significance of
various movements and ideas onour North American world?
(15:59):
Why would C.S.
Lewis be such an importantperson for you to take hold of?
Mark Noll (16:04):
Yes, that's an interesting question.
And it brings into the picturehow Lewis, writing primarily for
his British context, was aperson who doesn't really fit
any of the main religious andeven uh uh intellectual
categories in the United States.
(16:26):
So uh in the book I point outhow Lewis is uh uh celebrated
first by Roman Catholics.
Well, Lewis is not a RomanCatholic, he's an Anglican.
I I point out how uh Lewis isuh by and large given very
positive press by academics.
(16:47):
And it's known that he's aChristian believer, and although
the literary uh study in the US30s, 40s, and 50s was not as um
secular it has become, still aliterary scholar with Christian
foundations was a little bitodd.
And then uh amongstProtestants, C.
(17:08):
S.
Lewis is uh looked upon withsome suspicion by evangelicals.
He doesn't have the evangelicalsense and emphasis upon an
inerrant Bible.
He clearly knows and honors anduses the scriptures, but not
he's not worried about biblicalinerrancy.
His lifestyle is British,ordinary Christian.
(17:32):
There was a story about uh thefamous American fundamentalist
leader Bob Jones visiting C.
S.
Lewis in the 1950s, and hecomes back to America.
And of course, he's he'sspeaking to an audience of
fundamentalists who areconcerned about Christian faith,
but also about a particular wayof living.
And apparently Bob Jones saidsomething like, Well, that man
(17:54):
smokes and that man drinks, butI do believe he is a Christian.
There is this sense that Lewishas not no natural constituency
in America.
But he writes so clearly and hewrites so well, and here is a
very important point, hisapologetics for Christianity is
(18:16):
what the famous book from 1952called Mere Christianity.
He's not presenting somethingthat's only evangelical
Protestant, he's not presentingsomething that's only Church of
England, only Roman Catholic,but he's trying to present a
vision of the Christian faiththat takes in all branches of
(18:37):
Christianity that have aparticular traditional grasp of
what would be we'd call thecreedal, the Nicene, the
Apostles' Creed Foundation.
Interestingly, when he waspreparing the radio broadcast
that eventually led to a mereChristianity, he sent out his
broadcast to, I believe, four orfive clerics, a Catholic
(18:59):
priest, an Anglican, I think aMethodist, maybe one other
person, and then they commented,and Lewis would adjust a little
bit at least what he waspreparing for the radio by what
he heard from these people.
So it was mere Christianity.
And then you can't really everpredict a kind of literary and
intellectual genius of his kind.
(19:21):
He was uh creative, he wasclear, he was a brilliant
writer, and those qualitiesmeant that he could be
attractive in religious andnon-religious groups, even where
he didn't come in as one ofthem.
There's just a wonderful uhquotation by James Packer, J.I.
(19:45):
Packer, writing after Lewis'suh uh death some years about why
he found uh Lewis uh reallyimportant.
And I I'll read that nowbecause it it answers the
question why somebody outsidethe United States really not
fitting into any of the partiesin American religions that could
(20:09):
be so effective.
The secret of Lewis's greatpiercing power lay in his blend
of logic and imagination.
All of his arguments, includinghis literary criticism, are
illustrations in the sense thatthey throw light directly on
realities of life and action.
(20:29):
So the imaginative work istalking about serious life
things.
Well, all of his illustrations,including the fiction and
fantasies, are arguments in thesense that they throw light
directly on realities of truthand fact.
So blending of logic andimagination, maybe not unique,
but pretty close to being uniquein this in the modern world.
(20:52):
So mere Christianity, logic andimagination,
Brian Stiller (20:57):
that captures my understanding.
His logic is absolutely ittraps you.
There's nowhere to go.
When he's finished with you ona subject, there's just no exit.
And yet his imagination um foryears, every I have an annual
(21:18):
ritual of reading the GreatDivorce.
I've always been interested inlife after death.
And I've always felt that themetaphors that we in our own
evangelical world, especiallyour music, it uh it conjures up
uh uh uh corny, homely uh uhpictures that just seem to be uh
(21:44):
so pedestrian to what I thinkuh heaven might be.
And then I came out I cameacross uh the Great Divorce and
the way he sets it up by beingin that dreary city at a bus
stop, and he eventually goes toheaven, and the metaphors and
the imagination that he playswith, I find uh on a regular
(22:09):
read opens to me other ideas ofthe possibilities of of the
eternal the eternity of ourlives uh in ways that uh no one
else has has ever has everstroked.
So uh J.I.
Packer, his his definition isis is powerful.
(22:30):
So taking that uh and um partof my interest in this
conversation with you today,Mark, is that uh I find that
both C.S.
Lewis as an actual writer andwhat he can sponsor in giving
imagination and possibilities toyounger writers today, I I
(22:51):
simply have a great interest inmoving people to be more
familiar and ingest more of hiswritings.
So with that kind of as a as aas a subtitle to our
conversation or subtext, um uhwhat is there going on in our
world today uh that is uh thatwould produce the kind of
(23:15):
analysis you just made by lookby going by going to Amazon and
finding out he's the number oneof apologists, he's the number
four in in in whatever else thatyou've described.
Why is that why is that landingwith such solidity?
Uh and where's the and and withcontinuity out of the past?
(23:38):
Well, why is that going on, doyou, in your view?
Mark Noll (23:41):
That really is a strikingly um important and
interesting question,particularly when we think about
most of what is published andread today is mostly about the
pre from the present, about thepresent, with present uh
understanding.
I do think one of one of thesecrets in Lewis is continuing
(24:03):
authority, power, is that in hisown day, and we have to think
about Lewis comes to uh maturityduring World War I.
He's wounded in the struggle,he's part of British society in
a very tumultuous 1920s.
He experiences the depressionwith everyone else.
He's very actively involved inthese enterprises around uh
(24:27):
World War II.
He's a person uh right at thecenter of British intellectual
life.
And yet in his works, you don'tget the sense that he's talking
to current events.
You get the sense that he'stalking about realities for all
people at all times.
Partly in uh writing the book acouple years ago and partly in
(24:49):
getting prepared for this uh uhinterview today, I read more of
Lewis, went back to mereChristianity, read some of his
essays, and there are dateablematters.
Lewis's Lewis very often refersto man.
When we would today talk abouthumankind, men and women.
There are there are uh a fewplaces where um he's obviously
(25:12):
thinking about a world that'ssettled, a world in which
expectations of the nextgeneration have something to do
with what what the previousgeneration.
But by and large, um the factthat he is usually reasoning
from human condition and humanactions and ordinary human
relationships means that peoplecan pick them up and read.
(25:33):
Mere Christianity is a reallyuh good example.
What how do how can you defendthe reality of Christian faith?
With the radio broadcast, 1940,with the with the pamphlet,
1942, with Mere Christianity isa book in 1952, he begins with
saying, almost everybody hasmoral conclusions about things
(25:57):
in life.
Something happens to you andyou say it's not fair, something
happens to someone else and yousay they deserved it.
And then he goes on.
Where does that sense come fromthat there are standards that
we can apply to the behavior ofother people?
And then, of course, there'sit's it's not all that simple
(26:19):
how we develop it, but but as heas he carries readers along, he
says, well, it comes from thefact that there must be
objective morality in theuniverse.
And he explains that, takesobjections, that goes further,
and then in the next steps, andhe does this pretty quickly, but
(26:40):
it's still pretty complicated.
The Christian faith fits nicelyupon a universe in which
everyone thinks that some thingsare right and some things are
wrong.
And so by not writing to thepresent that he lived in, he is
actually writing about realitiesthat continue in all times and
(27:01):
all places.
And that is one of the thingsthat I think makes his work
relevant to the day, as doesalso the fact that he is writing
about mere Christianity and notpresenting himself as an
apologist for any one of themany varieties of Christian
faith.
And I would, Brian, to turn thereflection back on you, ask,
(27:23):
I'm sure you have found in yourtravels around the world that at
least some of C.S.
Lewis's works translate verywell.
Wheaton College has a center,the Wade Center, that focuses on
Lewis and his friends, and theythey have shelves full of books
translated, Lewis's books,translated into a plethora of
(27:45):
world languages, and all with atleast some resonance, some
stickability in those othercultures and other languages.
Brian Stiller (27:53):
Oh, Mark, I'm just in reflection on your
comment.
I'm thinking I I have in myhand the screw tape letters.
Well, that's that translatesinto every world.
And it's hilarious, it'scounterintuitive, and it lands
(28:17):
Kerplunk in everyone's liveswith realism and with and and
you know it's like I neverthought of that.
So wherever you go, his hislogic and with his his enormous
capacity to interplay with uhwith uh uh with other literat
(28:40):
literary uh writers and uh anduh ideas and and myths for him
to bring those into play uh ashe did with uh with some of his
uh some of his more mystical uhuh writings.
Mark Noll (28:58):
Let me let me pause to emphasize that point.
Uh Lewis is an extremelylearned person.
Um he I I've read some of someof his literary criticism, and
it it holds up pretty welltoday.
There's very littleself-referential writing of C.S.
Lewis about his own learning.
(29:20):
You can glimpse it sometimes,but there'll be page after page
after page that's that's direct,straightforward prose, not
name-dropping, but moving hisargument, moving his
presentation along.
So the great learning was, Ithink, absolutely essential for
his effectiveness, but it'slearning worn very, very
(29:41):
lightly.
Brian Stiller (29:43):
And isn't that instructive to writers?
You don't have to tell peopleon every page all that you know.
That's right.
Mark Noll (29:51):
I mean my my uh instinct as a historian is
always want to footnoteeverything, you want to footnote
everything.
Well, Lewis could havefootnoted everything.
But he realized that for mostpeople, most of the time, what
you want to hear is thepresentation of a good story or
presentation of a solidargument, you're not so much
(30:12):
concerned where it comes fromunless you go deeper.
And then, if you do go deeper,you'll be able to find with a
C.S.
Lewis that there really is afull superstructure underneath
what is so clear and transparentand moving on the surface.
Brian Stiller (30:28):
Mark, I don't want to get ahead of history,
but today as we reflect on C.S.
Lewis, uh the tragedy that uhthat was uh recently in in your
country, uh the death of a youngman.
Um at the same time, we'reseeing certain uh we're seeing
(30:49):
the emergence of uh I would callthem kind of revival or
spiritual renewal moments.
Uh you talk the they talk in inEngland about the the quiet
revival.
Uh you see it both amongCatholic and Protestant uh
spiritual events or events thatspeak of spiritual interest and
(31:13):
renewal.
Uh Ryan Burge, in his studyprimarily of the U.S., is
showing that that faith as acomponent of human life of
civilian life is holding itsown.
The the diminishment of by wayof secularity doesn't seem to be
as precipitous or as severe aswe thought, or maybe as it has
(31:38):
been.
So with so I as a historian,you may want to comment on
whether you you are seeing anykind of evidence of that.
But I my question to you is uhwhen you look at the history of
this man and what he haswritten, how is that speaking
into today's world withsecularity, with maybe operate
(31:59):
with maybe occasion of spiritualrenewal, of of war and
disaster?
How is he relevant to today?
Mark Noll (32:08):
I do I do think the situation you described for the
U.S.
uh is is intriguing people.
Uh my own sense is that uhtrust in traditional Christian
institutions maybe does continueto decline.
But that interest in Christianquestions, and then interest in
(32:29):
the in the broader category ofspirituality, where the
Christian faith has something tosay, are maybe as strong as
ever and maybe even growing.
In those circumstances, whatC.S.
Lewis offered was again notcommentary on the present, but
(32:50):
pointing people to what was umsecure and solid.
And and I don't I don't thinkit's I mean I think it's
important to recognize that thatit's probably the Narnia tales
that are are given the widestreading.
It's it's narrative thatdoesn't seem to have anything to
(33:13):
do with political polarizationin our day, doesn't have
anything to do with commentaryon China and US, Russia in the
US, war in Ukraine, Israel.
But the stories present in avery subtle way the importance
of a Christian understanding ofthe world, and even more
importance of an understandingof Christ and the figure of the
(33:36):
Lion.
And these stories are a kind ofend-run around objections or a
complete focus on the presentand have a tremendous resonance.
So, in the kind of situationyou describe, when people are
interested in helpful reading,they don't want to go to someone
(33:57):
who's telling them how theyshould think about matters in
the present.
They want to go to someonewho's trying to connect them to
a deeper and more foundationaland more stable understanding of
the world.
And and Lewis, it's not theonly one, but Lewis certainly
falls into those categories.
And again, just the the theclarity of thought and
(34:18):
expression are so unusual thatum they draw interest and and
often commitment from readers.
What's been your favorite?
We uh my wife and I read theNarnia tales probably five or
six times to our kids, so I I Iprobably have to say those.
(34:41):
As a historian, I really likehis long and detailed book
called The Oxford History ofEnglish Literature, the 16th
century, excluding drama.
It's not exciting in the in theway that uh uh like the Great
Divorce or the space ransomtrilogy is, but there's
(35:03):
wonderful writing on uh figureslike William Tyndale, Thomas
More.
There's terrific passages abouthow uh the language of the King
James Version reflects in someways Shakespearean language.
I mean it's a it's a real treatfor historians, but but I I
think for for uh reading to comeback to, I've actually gone
(35:26):
back to read Dinarnia Tales longafter our children are out of
the household because they'reyou can tell they're written
from the early 50s now, butthere's just so much good sense
and so much decision making bythe characters that reflects an
awareness of the morality of theuniverse that they really
(35:47):
become captivating.
Brian Stiller (35:49):
And Mark, what does that do for you and your
thinking and your own spiritualquest?
Mark Noll (35:54):
I do think that Lewis has a way, often, certainly not
everything he wrote, but butoften to bring you back to first
principles.
Uh I remember uh when when wehad a uh a special chapel
service at Wheaton College onthe afternoon of 9-11, 2001, and
our provost Stan Jones read atlength from Lewis's sermon,
(36:17):
Learning in Wartime, in which uhLewis tried to say, we we have
every reason in the world now,this was 1940, 1939, to be
worried about how events aredeveloping in Europe in the war,
but there's also real goodreasons for staying focused on
what you're trying to do in anacademic institution.
(36:38):
It was his way, our provost andLewis' earlier, are of saying,
look, the events of the worldare going to be disorienting,
they're going to be disruptive,but we need to focus in, retain
a grasp on what's mostimportant.
And I do think uh in a singularway, Lewis's entire body of
(37:01):
work try to get people to remainfocused on what was most
important.
Brian Stiller (37:06):
And if you were doing a podcast with C.S.
Lewis today, what one questionwould you want to ask him?
Mark Noll (37:13):
I think maybe I'd ask him what he gained by his
practice, and he's mentionedthis several times in his life,
what did he gain by his practiceof not not reading the daily
newspaper?
And that uh that kind of I Ithink he if we if he could we
(37:36):
could talk to him today, the thethe corresponding question
would be, what what what isgained if you just don't look at
your phone?
And I think what Lewis wouldsay is, I don't read the daily
newspaper, not because thingsare unimportant that are going
on day by day, but because thepermanent truths, the permanent
(37:58):
needs of human beings are alwaysmore important than the
day-to-day diversions that callus away from these most
important things.
I think that's what I'd like.
I think that's what he wouldsay, but I I would like to ask
him that question.
Brian Stiller (38:15):
Okay, Mark, let's let's land on a conversation
with the what where would aperson who is not that familiar
with Lewis, where do you think,what should be their first,
second, and third books to read?
Mark Noll (38:33):
I do think if someone is interested in um a logical
presentation of basicChristianity, mere Christianity
is still a very important bookto read.
And and um over the time,there's been there've been some
really nice books.
George Morrison at that uhwrote a very fine book on the
(38:55):
biography of mere Christianity.
And he could point out how anumber of uh uh influential
people, uh, Chuck Colson, uhFrancis Collins, others have
found this to be a um brief butcompelling understanding of uh
of the Christian faith.
For uh the literary-minded, Ithink that at least the first
(39:18):
two, maybe all three, of whatare called the the space trilogy
or the ransom uh trilogy, outof the silent planet.
So the protagonist goes toMars, Paralandra, the
protagonist goes to Venus, andthe plot is what would the world
be like if Eve had resisted thedevil, Satan in the Garden of
(39:42):
Eden.
So that's an amazing.
And then uh um uh the thirdone, that hideous strength is
set on earth, they're morecomplicated.
But these are really intriguingways of telling stories not
focused on Christian faith, butcommunicating uh not focused on
(40:03):
the detail of the Christianfaith, but focusing on the kind
of universe of the Christianfaith.
And then then for anyone who uhwould like to see how
imagination can uh draw peoplewithout even seeming to try
toward an understanding of theChristian faith, then I think
(40:24):
the Lion Witch in the Wardrobe,and then the six books that
followed, and the Darnia Taleswould be would be my
recommendation.
Brian Stiller (40:30):
And I'd like to add one the problem with pain
for those who struggle with theexistential issues of uh of
personal living.
Mark Noll (40:40):
Brian, I think that the I I would agree with you
that the problem of pain is amasterful uh response to the
question why does God allowsuffering?
People should, however, if theyread that, also read in in uh
tandem with that a book thatLewis wrote later after his
wife, uh Joy Daveman died,called A Grief Observed, which
(41:01):
is which is much less, I wouldsay, rational, but much more
emotionally powerful aboutsomeone who's experienced great
loss.
So those combination of thosetwo books really make a strong
intervention in what we allexperience in one way or at some
(41:22):
times in our lives, about ourour asking, oh God, why did this
happen to me?
Why did this happen toso-and-so?
And those are passionate andpowerful works.
Brian Stiller (41:31):
And Mark, on that we end a very rich conversation
on C.S.
Lewis and his enduring legacyand the value that he brings as
a Christian witness to us in anyaspect of life.
So thank you.
Thank you for joining me onEvangelical 360 today, Mark.
Mark Noll (41:52):
It's been my privilege.
Thank you.
Brian Stiller (41:54):
Thanks, Mark, for joining me today.
Your mind in canvassing ourpast helps us see today with
greater clarity.
And on the matter of thisextraordinary writer, C.
S.
Lewis, our understanding of himand his value to us has been
broadened.
And to you, friend.
Thanks for being a part of thepodcast.
(42:16):
Be sure to share this episodeand join the conversation on
YouTube.
If you'd like to learn moreabout today's guest, be sure to
check the show notes for linksand info.
And if you haven't alreadyreceived my free ebook and
newsletter, just go toBrianStiller.com.
Thanks again.
(42:36):
Until next time.
Don't miss the next interview.
Be sure to subscribe toEvangelical 360 on YouTube.
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm your host, Brian Stiller.
Who would have guessed that anEnglish professor in the
nineteen forties in Oxford andCambridge would become not only
widely read but widely trustedin the pursuit of faith in a
secular age?
C.S.
(00:30):
Lewis was one of a kind.
Today in this age of spiritualquests and denial, his name
comes up again and again.
My friend historian Mark Nollhas written about this very
matter also asking why anAmerican audience would
gravitate to his decades oldliterature.
(00:51):
Just for your information, MarkNoll, a preeminent historian of
the Church in North America, isan historian who has been so
helpful to me over the years tounderstand the world of faith I
occupy, where it came from, andhow I can see it better today.
And in this book, C.
S.
Lewis in America he not onlyopens us to who in America took
(01:15):
him in, but why C.
S.
Lewis has been critical to manyof us in our literary and faith
journeys.
His writings of logic andmystery bridge those two worlds
like no one I've read.
That's why Mark today will helpus think about his value to our
lives, and it may stir up yourmind to read him again or for
(01:39):
the very first time.
And thanks to you for being apart of this podcast.
As you listen, would youconsider sharing this episode
with a friend?
And if you haven't, please hitthe subscribe button by joining
the conversation on YouTube inthe comments below.
Now to my guest, historian MarkNoll.
(02:02):
Mark Noll, thanks for joiningus again on Evangelical 360.
Mark Noll (02:07):
It's my privilege, Brian.
I've uh enjoyed listening tosome of the podcasts, and even I
don't do podcasts, but some ofyours have been grabbers.
Brian Stiller (02:17):
Well, uh I'm a I'm a kind of a novice
historian.
I did my undergraduate inhistory, and I've read, I think,
most of your books, but I wasfascinated by this book, C.S.
Lewis in America, uh, whichcame out not long ago.
(02:37):
And I'm both fascinated in C.S.
Lewis as a writer, but I'm alsointerested in how those people,
their lives, their writings,their ideas roll down from
generation to generation.
And so when I read this book, Ithought, Mark, here's my way of
(03:00):
bringing together one of myfavorite writers and one of my
favorite historians, so we canhave a chat about what's going
on in the world today and howthe past is impacting today, and
uh and uh asking you to kind ofput your prophet's hat on, uh,
which is the antithesis to beinga historian, and we think about
(03:21):
the future.
So uh, Mark, thanks for joiningus and C.
S.
Lewis in America today.
Maybe for some who are thatfamiliar with C.S.
Lewis, maybe you could give usa thumbnail sketch on who he is
and what he wrote and uh hisimpact.
Mark Noll (03:38):
The book actually covers America and attention to
C.
S.
Lewis in his early days, so upuntil 1947 when he appeared on
the cover of Time magazine.
But what people werediscovering then is the same
thing that people are continuingto discover today about C.
S.
Lewis.
So he's born in NorthernIreland in Belfast, 1898.
(03:59):
He is a uh precocious young manin his learning and in his
sensitivity to the world.
So his mother dies when he'syoung, maybe nine or ten years
old.
He's shipped off to boardingschools by his father.
It's clear that he's very, verybright.
He's clear that he's sensitiveto morality.
(04:20):
He loses his faith in boardingschool, partly because he had
prayed that his mother, who wassuffering from cancer, would be
healed, and she wasn't.
His father sends him to studyprivately with a schoolmaster in
England, whom the father hadhad as a regular schoolmaster.
(04:41):
Kirkpatrick was his name, andLewis did study privately 1914
to 1917, in in order to prepareto be prepared to go to the
University of Oxford atCambridge.
He's admitted to Oxford afterWorld War I has begun, in part
because admission standards arelower.
(05:02):
And that's actually a curiositywhen we think about the
brilliance of C.S.
Lewis, that he was admitted toOxford only because they needed
students.
His math was terrible,everything else was wonderful.
He volunteers for the Britishmilitary.
He serves on the Western Frontin the front in France.
(05:26):
He's wounded.
He comes back to Britain.
He's in convalescence for awhile.
Then after the war, he returnsto his studies and he has a
brilliant career as anundergraduate at Oxford.
He does a, what we would say inthe U.S.
is a triple major, uh, theGreek and Roman classics,
philosophy, and English.
(05:46):
He then obtains a teachingposition at Oxford, and he's
there for uh the next 30 yearsuntil he as a mature uh scholar
in the mid-50s, he secures aposition at Cambridge
University.
The really interesting thingabout uh C.S.
Lewis is his sensitivity tomorality, his sensitivity to uh
(06:10):
the life of the mind and the waythose develop.
He wrote an autobiography andpublished in the 1950s,
mid-1950s, called Surprised byJoy, in which he traces the
course of his early life as onewho, as a very, very bright
person, turns away from theChristianity of his inheritance
(06:31):
and then gradually is broughtback.
Philosophical reasoning, moralreasoning pushes him toward
accepting God, theism.
And then by the early 1930s, hehe actually calls himself the
most reluctant convert inChristendom when he acknowledges
Christ and returns to theChristian faith.
(06:52):
What sets Lewis apart, and thiswas very obvious in the uh
early period that I was lookingat, but it continues to be
obvious today, is his desire tocommunicate broadly on Christian
topics, but also his desire tobe a first-order, reputable
(07:12):
scholar of English literature.
So in the 1930s, he publishes avery, actually, it's difficult
to read now, but a verycomplicated counterpart to the
Pilgrim's Progress called thePilgrim's Regress.
It's an allegory about how hisintellectual journey led him
(07:33):
through all sorts ofcontemporary modern ways of
thinking until he returned toChristian faith.
The Pilgrim's Regress ispublished in 1935 or so.
It's read in America with someappreciation, but there's no
particular uh uh population andno particular audience for this.
Then for the next five or sixyears, he mostly publishes uh
(07:57):
works of literary criticism.
There's a there is eventually avery important book on Milton's
Paradise Lost.
He publishes a series of essayson medieval literature, uh, The
Allegory of Love, in which hesays the high renaissance in
Britain is really important forbringing together courtly love
(08:18):
and married love, which isactually an interesting uh
development early on.
But still, he's not much knownin America.
There is a uh a number ofprofessional journals that
review these books, and thenLewis has something of a name.
The really importantdevelopment for Lewis' later
career place outside of theclassroom and outside of his
(08:41):
life as an author, when he'sasked at the start of World War
II to bring lectures toservicemen, usually the RAF, on
Christian topics.
What that urged him to do is tothink about how to communicate
important Christian truths in away that would be presentable to
(09:03):
a broader public.
And as he went on, he he gotmuch better at being concise,
which of course is not anacademic uh uh specialty, much
better at being concise, muchbetter at bringing together
clear conceptual presentationwith forceful imaginative
(09:23):
writing.
He's asked in these early daysif he would bring uh radio
broadcasts on the BBC,introducing Christian faith, and
he did so in the manner that hehad learned how to talk to the
troops.
And so we have a series ofradio broadcasts that are done
in the roughly 1940, 1941, andthen those broadcasts have begun
(09:48):
to be published in booklets,but there's no real resonance in
America yet.
And there's no great popularityof C.S.
Lewis even in Britain, althoughpeople know who he is, until in
1942, Lewis has published inBritain the Screw Tape Letters,
an imaginary dialogue between asenior devil and a junior devil
(10:11):
who has the responsibility forone individual in wartime
London.
These uh screw tape letters arepublished uh serially in in
Britain and then brought out inthe book in uh February of 1942.
It's republished in America in1943 in February, and there's an
immediate enthusiasm for thiswriter.
(10:33):
Most of the enthusiasm is justthe wonderful device of
presenting the Christian faithalways backwards.
The senior devil is alwayscounseling the junior devil
about how to work against theChristian influences that's
coming to the subject.
It really is just staggeringlyinnovative, funny, clear, but
(10:59):
also poignant and helpful.
What was intriguing to me inlooking at the American
responses to the C.S.
Lewis is Maine Americanpublications, the New York
Times, the New York HeraldTribune, the Los Angeles Times,
that were enthusiastic about thethe uh screw taped letters.
(11:21):
Mainline Protestants in theU.S.
were pretty enthusiastic.
Evangelical Protestants werenot.
And maybe, Brian, we we shouldfind out later why it was that
the tremendous enthusiasm forC.S.
Lewis in evangelical circlescomes later rather than earlier.
The people who fastened on toLewis first happened to be
(11:41):
learned academic Roman Catholicswho had known something about
his earlier literary work andcould combine their analysis of
that literary work with now thepopularity of the screw tape
letters.
Macmillan was Lewis'spublisher.
They saw the enthusiasm for thescrew taped letters and they
(12:02):
immediately rolled out severalother works, including some of
the uh the broadcast uh diet.
I'll look at my uh list just tobe sure I can get the order
right.
But then uh they also broughtout uh the first of Lewis's uh
space novels, so sciencefiction.
(12:22):
He had been a great uhenthusiast for science fiction,
but did but realized that therewasn't really often a lot of
moral content.
So he had published earlier outof a book called Out of the
Silent Planet, which uh it is afictional journey of someone
from Earth to Mars, where hefinds out that the problems of
(12:43):
Earth, warfare, strife,contention are not present.
Why?
Because the Earth has become asilent planet in the control of
an evil spirit, whereas Mars wasa planet that was still
dominated by the one true God.
Of course, they don't use theword one true God.
(13:04):
Macmillan rushes that book intoprint.
Macmillan rushes the first ofthe radio broadcasts into print,
and C.S.
Lewis's popularity goes on fromthere.
The I ended in 1947 when Lewisis a really popular person, but
the great worldwide popularitycomes just a little bit later.
The first of Lewis's storiesfor children, the Narnia Tales,
(13:27):
is published in 1950.
The book Mere Christianity thatpulls together the booklets
that had come from the radiobroadcast appear only in 1952.
So you have a period that I waslooking at in particular, where
there's a kind of scatteredappreciation for C.
S.
Lewis, academic, Christianapologist, fiction writer.
(13:50):
But by the time we get to the1950s and 1960s, including now,
a lot of enthusiasm byevangelical Protestants as well
as other Christians, C.
S.
Lewis becomes the figure thathe is.
And Brian, just before speakingto you today, I checked Amazon
for best-selling books.
Mere Christianity is the numberone book today in Christian
(14:18):
apologetics.
It's number 38 in all of books.
So you look at Amazon, what arethe most purchased books right
now, and right there is MereChristianity.
Uh it's it's number one inbooks of essays.
And books of essays of the topten of Amazon, three of them are
(14:42):
CSOs.
So in an age where there's justtremendous concentration and
focus on what's done now, withimmediate desire to have an
instant analysis of things thatare happening in the present,
you have the appearance of thesebooks.
Now, they're not ancient, butfrom the 40s and the 50s, that
(15:04):
are still selling, stillattracting readers, and still
making a difference.
That's a very abbreviatedhistory of a very influential
writing career, but it points tothe fact that this person who
is rooted in his own times,before World War I, during World
War I, before World War II,during World War II, with
(15:26):
literature not exactlyaddressing the times
specifically, but coming out ofthose contexts, is literature
that continues to have an appealto this day.
Brian Stiller (15:36):
Mark, you're uh without doubt the foremost
historian of Christianity inNorth America.
So why would C.S.
Lewis attract your attention tospend your time in research and
writing?
What was there as an historianlooking at the significance of
various movements and ideas onour North American world?
(15:59):
Why would C.S.
Lewis be such an importantperson for you to take hold of?
Mark Noll (16:04):
Yes, that's an interesting question.
And it brings into the picturehow Lewis, writing primarily for
his British context, was aperson who doesn't really fit
any of the main religious andeven uh uh intellectual
categories in the United States.
(16:26):
So uh in the book I point outhow Lewis is uh uh celebrated
first by Roman Catholics.
Well, Lewis is not a RomanCatholic, he's an Anglican.
I I point out how uh Lewis isuh by and large given very
positive press by academics.
(16:47):
And it's known that he's aChristian believer, and although
the literary uh study in the US30s, 40s, and 50s was not as um
secular it has become, still aliterary scholar with Christian
foundations was a little bitodd.
And then uh amongstProtestants, C.
(17:08):
S.
Lewis is uh looked upon withsome suspicion by evangelicals.
He doesn't have the evangelicalsense and emphasis upon an
inerrant Bible.
He clearly knows and honors anduses the scriptures, but not
he's not worried about biblicalinerrancy.
His lifestyle is British,ordinary Christian.
(17:32):
There was a story about uh thefamous American fundamentalist
leader Bob Jones visiting C.
S.
Lewis in the 1950s, and hecomes back to America.
And of course, he's he'sspeaking to an audience of
fundamentalists who areconcerned about Christian faith,
but also about a particular wayof living.
And apparently Bob Jones saidsomething like, Well, that man
(17:54):
smokes and that man drinks, butI do believe he is a Christian.
There is this sense that Lewishas not no natural constituency
in America.
But he writes so clearly and hewrites so well, and here is a
very important point, hisapologetics for Christianity is
(18:16):
what the famous book from 1952called Mere Christianity.
He's not presenting somethingthat's only evangelical
Protestant, he's not presentingsomething that's only Church of
England, only Roman Catholic,but he's trying to present a
vision of the Christian faiththat takes in all branches of
(18:37):
Christianity that have aparticular traditional grasp of
what would be we'd call thecreedal, the Nicene, the
Apostles' Creed Foundation.
Interestingly, when he waspreparing the radio broadcast
that eventually led to a mereChristianity, he sent out his
broadcast to, I believe, four orfive clerics, a Catholic
(18:59):
priest, an Anglican, I think aMethodist, maybe one other
person, and then they commented,and Lewis would adjust a little
bit at least what he waspreparing for the radio by what
he heard from these people.
So it was mere Christianity.
And then you can't really everpredict a kind of literary and
intellectual genius of his kind.
(19:21):
He was uh creative, he wasclear, he was a brilliant
writer, and those qualitiesmeant that he could be
attractive in religious andnon-religious groups, even where
he didn't come in as one ofthem.
There's just a wonderful uhquotation by James Packer, J.I.
(19:45):
Packer, writing after Lewis'suh uh death some years about why
he found uh Lewis uh reallyimportant.
And I I'll read that nowbecause it it answers the
question why somebody outsidethe United States really not
fitting into any of the partiesin American religions that could
(20:09):
be so effective.
The secret of Lewis's greatpiercing power lay in his blend
of logic and imagination.
All of his arguments, includinghis literary criticism, are
illustrations in the sense thatthey throw light directly on
realities of life and action.
(20:29):
So the imaginative work istalking about serious life
things.
Well, all of his illustrations,including the fiction and
fantasies, are arguments in thesense that they throw light
directly on realities of truthand fact.
So blending of logic andimagination, maybe not unique,
but pretty close to being uniquein this in the modern world.
(20:52):
So mere Christianity, logic andimagination,
Brian Stiller (20:57):
that captures my understanding.
His logic is absolutely ittraps you.
There's nowhere to go.
When he's finished with you ona subject, there's just no exit.
And yet his imagination um foryears, every I have an annual
(21:18):
ritual of reading the GreatDivorce.
I've always been interested inlife after death.
And I've always felt that themetaphors that we in our own
evangelical world, especiallyour music, it uh it conjures up
uh uh uh corny, homely uh uhpictures that just seem to be uh
(21:44):
so pedestrian to what I thinkuh heaven might be.
And then I came out I cameacross uh the Great Divorce and
the way he sets it up by beingin that dreary city at a bus
stop, and he eventually goes toheaven, and the metaphors and
the imagination that he playswith, I find uh on a regular
(22:09):
read opens to me other ideas ofthe possibilities of of the
eternal the eternity of ourlives uh in ways that uh no one
else has has ever has everstroked.
So uh J.I.
Packer, his his definition isis is powerful.
(22:30):
So taking that uh and um partof my interest in this
conversation with you today,Mark, is that uh I find that
both C.S.
Lewis as an actual writer andwhat he can sponsor in giving
imagination and possibilities toyounger writers today, I I
(22:51):
simply have a great interest inmoving people to be more
familiar and ingest more of hiswritings.
So with that kind of as a as aas a subtitle to our
conversation or subtext, um uhwhat is there going on in our
world today uh that is uh thatwould produce the kind of
(23:15):
analysis you just made by lookby going by going to Amazon and
finding out he's the number oneof apologists, he's the number
four in in in whatever else thatyou've described.
Why is that why is that landingwith such solidity?
Uh and where's the and and withcontinuity out of the past?
(23:38):
Well, why is that going on, doyou, in your view?
Mark Noll (23:41):
That really is a strikingly um important and
interesting question,particularly when we think about
most of what is published andread today is mostly about the
pre from the present, about thepresent, with present uh
understanding.
I do think one of one of thesecrets in Lewis is continuing
(24:03):
authority, power, is that in hisown day, and we have to think
about Lewis comes to uh maturityduring World War I.
He's wounded in the struggle,he's part of British society in
a very tumultuous 1920s.
He experiences the depressionwith everyone else.
He's very actively involved inthese enterprises around uh
(24:27):
World War II.
He's a person uh right at thecenter of British intellectual
life.
And yet in his works, you don'tget the sense that he's talking
to current events.
You get the sense that he'stalking about realities for all
people at all times.
Partly in uh writing the book acouple years ago and partly in
(24:49):
getting prepared for this uh uhinterview today, I read more of
Lewis, went back to mereChristianity, read some of his
essays, and there are dateablematters.
Lewis's Lewis very often refersto man.
When we would today talk abouthumankind, men and women.
There are there are uh a fewplaces where um he's obviously
(25:12):
thinking about a world that'ssettled, a world in which
expectations of the nextgeneration have something to do
with what what the previousgeneration.
But by and large, um the factthat he is usually reasoning
from human condition and humanactions and ordinary human
relationships means that peoplecan pick them up and read.
(25:33):
Mere Christianity is a reallyuh good example.
What how do how can you defendthe reality of Christian faith?
With the radio broadcast, 1940,with the with the pamphlet,
1942, with Mere Christianity isa book in 1952, he begins with
saying, almost everybody hasmoral conclusions about things
(25:57):
in life.
Something happens to you andyou say it's not fair, something
happens to someone else and yousay they deserved it.
And then he goes on.
Where does that sense come fromthat there are standards that
we can apply to the behavior ofother people?
And then, of course, there'sit's it's not all that simple
(26:19):
how we develop it, but but as heas he carries readers along, he
says, well, it comes from thefact that there must be
objective morality in theuniverse.
And he explains that, takesobjections, that goes further,
and then in the next steps, andhe does this pretty quickly, but
(26:40):
it's still pretty complicated.
The Christian faith fits nicelyupon a universe in which
everyone thinks that some thingsare right and some things are
wrong.
And so by not writing to thepresent that he lived in, he is
actually writing about realitiesthat continue in all times and
(27:01):
all places.
And that is one of the thingsthat I think makes his work
relevant to the day, as doesalso the fact that he is writing
about mere Christianity and notpresenting himself as an
apologist for any one of themany varieties of Christian
faith.
And I would, Brian, to turn thereflection back on you, ask,
(27:23):
I'm sure you have found in yourtravels around the world that at
least some of C.S.
Lewis's works translate verywell.
Wheaton College has a center,the Wade Center, that focuses on
Lewis and his friends, and theythey have shelves full of books
translated, Lewis's books,translated into a plethora of
(27:45):
world languages, and all with atleast some resonance, some
stickability in those othercultures and other languages.
Brian Stiller (27:53):
Oh, Mark, I'm just in reflection on your
comment.
I'm thinking I I have in myhand the screw tape letters.
Well, that's that translatesinto every world.
And it's hilarious, it'scounterintuitive, and it lands
(28:17):
Kerplunk in everyone's liveswith realism and with and and
you know it's like I neverthought of that.
So wherever you go, his hislogic and with his his enormous
capacity to interplay with uhwith uh uh with other literat
(28:40):
literary uh writers and uh anduh ideas and and myths for him
to bring those into play uh ashe did with uh with some of his
uh some of his more mystical uhuh writings.
Mark Noll (28:58):
Let me let me pause to emphasize that point.
Uh Lewis is an extremelylearned person.
Um he I I've read some of someof his literary criticism, and
it it holds up pretty welltoday.
There's very littleself-referential writing of C.S.
Lewis about his own learning.
(29:20):
You can glimpse it sometimes,but there'll be page after page
after page that's that's direct,straightforward prose, not
name-dropping, but moving hisargument, moving his
presentation along.
So the great learning was, Ithink, absolutely essential for
his effectiveness, but it'slearning worn very, very
(29:41):
lightly.
Brian Stiller (29:43):
And isn't that instructive to writers?
You don't have to tell peopleon every page all that you know.
That's right.
Mark Noll (29:51):
I mean my my uh instinct as a historian is
always want to footnoteeverything, you want to footnote
everything.
Well, Lewis could havefootnoted everything.
But he realized that for mostpeople, most of the time, what
you want to hear is thepresentation of a good story or
presentation of a solidargument, you're not so much
(30:12):
concerned where it comes fromunless you go deeper.
And then, if you do go deeper,you'll be able to find with a
C.S.
Lewis that there really is afull superstructure underneath
what is so clear and transparentand moving on the surface.
Brian Stiller (30:28):
Mark, I don't want to get ahead of history,
but today as we reflect on C.S.
Lewis, uh the tragedy that uhthat was uh recently in in your
country, uh the death of a youngman.
Um at the same time, we'reseeing certain uh we're seeing
(30:49):
the emergence of uh I would callthem kind of revival or
spiritual renewal moments.
Uh you talk the they talk in inEngland about the the quiet
revival.
Uh you see it both amongCatholic and Protestant uh
spiritual events or events thatspeak of spiritual interest and
(31:13):
renewal.
Uh Ryan Burge, in his studyprimarily of the U.S., is
showing that that faith as acomponent of human life of
civilian life is holding itsown.
The the diminishment of by wayof secularity doesn't seem to be
as precipitous or as severe aswe thought, or maybe as it has
(31:38):
been.
So with so I as a historian,you may want to comment on
whether you you are seeing anykind of evidence of that.
But I my question to you is uhwhen you look at the history of
this man and what he haswritten, how is that speaking
into today's world withsecularity, with maybe operate
(31:59):
with maybe occasion of spiritualrenewal, of of war and
disaster?
How is he relevant to today?
Mark Noll (32:08):
I do I do think the situation you described for the
U.S.
uh is is intriguing people.
Uh my own sense is that uhtrust in traditional Christian
institutions maybe does continueto decline.
But that interest in Christianquestions, and then interest in
(32:29):
the in the broader category ofspirituality, where the
Christian faith has something tosay, are maybe as strong as
ever and maybe even growing.
In those circumstances, whatC.S.
Lewis offered was again notcommentary on the present, but
(32:50):
pointing people to what was umsecure and solid.
And and I don't I don't thinkit's I mean I think it's
important to recognize that thatit's probably the Narnia tales
that are are given the widestreading.
It's it's narrative thatdoesn't seem to have anything to
(33:13):
do with political polarizationin our day, doesn't have
anything to do with commentaryon China and US, Russia in the
US, war in Ukraine, Israel.
But the stories present in avery subtle way the importance
of a Christian understanding ofthe world, and even more
importance of an understandingof Christ and the figure of the
(33:36):
Lion.
And these stories are a kind ofend-run around objections or a
complete focus on the presentand have a tremendous resonance.
So, in the kind of situationyou describe, when people are
interested in helpful reading,they don't want to go to someone
(33:57):
who's telling them how theyshould think about matters in
the present.
They want to go to someonewho's trying to connect them to
a deeper and more foundationaland more stable understanding of
the world.
And and Lewis, it's not theonly one, but Lewis certainly
falls into those categories.
And again, just the the theclarity of thought and
(34:18):
expression are so unusual thatum they draw interest and and
often commitment from readers.
What's been your favorite?
We uh my wife and I read theNarnia tales probably five or
six times to our kids, so I I Iprobably have to say those.
(34:41):
As a historian, I really likehis long and detailed book
called The Oxford History ofEnglish Literature, the 16th
century, excluding drama.
It's not exciting in the in theway that uh uh like the Great
Divorce or the space ransomtrilogy is, but there's
(35:03):
wonderful writing on uh figureslike William Tyndale, Thomas
More.
There's terrific passages abouthow uh the language of the King
James Version reflects in someways Shakespearean language.
I mean it's a it's a real treatfor historians, but but I I
think for for uh reading to comeback to, I've actually gone
(35:26):
back to read Dinarnia Tales longafter our children are out of
the household because they'reyou can tell they're written
from the early 50s now, butthere's just so much good sense
and so much decision making bythe characters that reflects an
awareness of the morality of theuniverse that they really
(35:47):
become captivating.
Brian Stiller (35:49):
And Mark, what does that do for you and your
thinking and your own spiritualquest?
Mark Noll (35:54):
I do think that Lewis has a way, often, certainly not
everything he wrote, but butoften to bring you back to first
principles.
Uh I remember uh when when wehad a uh a special chapel
service at Wheaton College onthe afternoon of 9-11, 2001, and
our provost Stan Jones read atlength from Lewis's sermon,
(36:17):
Learning in Wartime, in which uhLewis tried to say, we we have
every reason in the world now,this was 1940, 1939, to be
worried about how events aredeveloping in Europe in the war,
but there's also real goodreasons for staying focused on
what you're trying to do in anacademic institution.
(36:38):
It was his way, our provost andLewis' earlier, are of saying,
look, the events of the worldare going to be disorienting,
they're going to be disruptive,but we need to focus in, retain
a grasp on what's mostimportant.
And I do think uh in a singularway, Lewis's entire body of
(37:01):
work try to get people to remainfocused on what was most
important.
Brian Stiller (37:06):
And if you were doing a podcast with C.S.
Lewis today, what one questionwould you want to ask him?
Mark Noll (37:13):
I think maybe I'd ask him what he gained by his
practice, and he's mentionedthis several times in his life,
what did he gain by his practiceof not not reading the daily
newspaper?
And that uh that kind of I Ithink he if we if he could we
(37:36):
could talk to him today, the thethe corresponding question
would be, what what what isgained if you just don't look at
your phone?
And I think what Lewis wouldsay is, I don't read the daily
newspaper, not because thingsare unimportant that are going
on day by day, but because thepermanent truths, the permanent
(37:58):
needs of human beings are alwaysmore important than the
day-to-day diversions that callus away from these most
important things.
I think that's what I'd like.
I think that's what he wouldsay, but I I would like to ask
him that question.
Brian Stiller (38:15):
Okay, Mark, let's let's land on a conversation
with the what where would aperson who is not that familiar
with Lewis, where do you think,what should be their first,
second, and third books to read?
Mark Noll (38:33):
I do think if someone is interested in um a logical
presentation of basicChristianity, mere Christianity
is still a very important bookto read.
And and um over the time,there's been there've been some
really nice books.
George Morrison at that uhwrote a very fine book on the
(38:55):
biography of mere Christianity.
And he could point out how anumber of uh uh influential
people, uh, Chuck Colson, uhFrancis Collins, others have
found this to be a um brief butcompelling understanding of uh
of the Christian faith.
For uh the literary-minded, Ithink that at least the first
(39:18):
two, maybe all three, of whatare called the the space trilogy
or the ransom uh trilogy, outof the silent planet.
So the protagonist goes toMars, Paralandra, the
protagonist goes to Venus, andthe plot is what would the world
be like if Eve had resisted thedevil, Satan in the Garden of
(39:42):
Eden.
So that's an amazing.
And then uh um uh the thirdone, that hideous strength is
set on earth, they're morecomplicated.
But these are really intriguingways of telling stories not
focused on Christian faith, butcommunicating uh not focused on
(40:03):
the detail of the Christianfaith, but focusing on the kind
of universe of the Christianfaith.
And then then for anyone who uhwould like to see how
imagination can uh draw peoplewithout even seeming to try
toward an understanding of theChristian faith, then I think
(40:24):
the Lion Witch in the Wardrobe,and then the six books that
followed, and the Darnia Taleswould be would be my
recommendation.
Brian Stiller (40:30):
And I'd like to add one the problem with pain
for those who struggle with theexistential issues of uh of
personal living.
Mark Noll (40:40):
Brian, I think that the I I would agree with you
that the problem of pain is amasterful uh response to the
question why does God allowsuffering?
People should, however, if theyread that, also read in in uh
tandem with that a book thatLewis wrote later after his
wife, uh Joy Daveman died,called A Grief Observed, which
(41:01):
is which is much less, I wouldsay, rational, but much more
emotionally powerful aboutsomeone who's experienced great
loss.
So those combination of thosetwo books really make a strong
intervention in what we allexperience in one way or at some
(41:22):
times in our lives, about ourour asking, oh God, why did this
happen to me?
Why did this happen toso-and-so?
And those are passionate andpowerful works.
Brian Stiller (41:31):
And Mark, on that we end a very rich conversation
on C.S.
Lewis and his enduring legacyand the value that he brings as
a Christian witness to us in anyaspect of life.
So thank you.
Thank you for joining me onEvangelical 360 today, Mark.
Mark Noll (41:52):
It's been my privilege.
Thank you.
Brian Stiller (41:54):
Thanks, Mark, for joining me today.
Your mind in canvassing ourpast helps us see today with
greater clarity.
And on the matter of thisextraordinary writer, C.
S.
Lewis, our understanding of himand his value to us has been
broadened.
And to you, friend.
Thanks for being a part of thepodcast.
(42:16):
Be sure to share this episodeand join the conversation on
YouTube.
If you'd like to learn moreabout today's guest, be sure to
check the show notes for linksand info.
And if you haven't alreadyreceived my free ebook and
newsletter, just go toBrianStiller.com.
Thanks again.
(42:36):
Until next time.
Don't miss the next interview.
Be sure to subscribe toEvangelical 360 on YouTube.
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