November 7, 2025 • 42 mins
Headlines often reduce “evangelical” to a U.S. political label, but there is so much more beyond the frame. In this conversation with historian and global church leader Rev. Dr. Frank Hinkelmann, we trace how a revival-born, interdenominational movement became a 140‑country network, why its center now rests in the Global South, and what that means for mission, ethics, and public life.
Dr. Hinkelmann unpacks the roots of the term "evangelical" for us, the Bebbington markers that still orient identity, and the surprising ways migration and youth engagement are reshaping Europe’s religious map. We dig into the nineteenth‑century birth of the World Evangelical Alliance and its early campaigns for religious freedom, including advocacy before emperors and sultans.
That history sets the stage for today’s challenges: resisting the temptation to fuse faith with political power, broadening moral vision beyond a narrow set of issues, and keeping conscience, persuasion, and service at the center. Frank offers a European lens on U.S. politicization, urging a clear line between church and state while calling believers to engage the public square with conviction and humility.
For younger listeners wondering how to step in, Frank’s roadmap is simple and actionable: start local, volunteer, cross borders when possible, and build friendships that widen your view of God’s work in the world.
You can learn more from Rev. Dr. Frank Hinkelmann through his published works, and the World Evangelical Alliance through their website and Facebook.
And please don't forget to share this episode and join the conversation on YouTube!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brian Stiller (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm your host, Brian Stiller.
All my life I've been a part ofthe Christian church known as
Evangelicals, a community ofchurch denominations and
ministries, which historicallyis part of the world Protestant
Church.
In the past few years, thiscommunity of evangelicals has
(00:31):
grown faster than any religiouscommunity in their history of
the world, a comment I make withcare.
In the past few decades, thischurch community has grown from
under 100 million just decadesago to over 600 million today.
However, in recent years,especially in the United States,
for historical and culturalreasons, the Native Evangelical
(00:55):
has been linked to a particularpolitical party, its policies
and values, and by so doing hasreconfigured its essence by this
political alignment.
This is not true globally.
And with that in mind, today Iwant you to meet Frank
Hinkelmann, a scholar andhistorian who will help us see
(01:16):
who this community has beenhistorically and how worldwide
it seeks to bring cohesion andunity to this wide-ranging
community which makes up aquarter of the world's
Christians.
And thanks for joining me.
And I know your time with Franktoday will be of value to your
understanding of the world andto this major community of
(01:38):
faith.
But as you listen, would youconsider sharing this episode
with a friend?
And if you haven't, just hitthe subscribe button and join
the conversation on YouTube.
Now to my guest, FrankHinkelmann.
Frank Hinkelmann, thank you forjoining us on Evangelical 360.
Frank Hinkelmann (02:00):
Thank you very much for the invitation to be
part of this.
Brian Stiller (02:03):
Frank, there's a lot of things I want to talk
with you about as historian andas uh senior leader in the world
evangelical community overthese years and especially out
of Europe.
But let me jump in right in andask you this question as we
look at the politicization ofevangelicals in the U.S.
(02:24):
In the 180 years that thisorganization, the World
Evangelical Alliance, has beenaround, or maybe even the
history of Protestantism, havewe ever had a particular time or
place where the evangelicalcommunity has been politicized
as we see it going on in theU.S.
today?
Frank Hinkelmann (02:45):
Well, from a church historical perspective, I
would say no, we haven't.
Especially if we look at thelast 200 years of evangelical
history, I think we need to saythis is quite a unique situation
where we are in.
If we go a bit further back, Imean what we have seen in during
the Reformation period is thatthere that the alliance between
(03:08):
a state and the church remained,which was there since
Constantine at the beginning ofthe fourth century, where this
alliance was originally formed.
And I think it was thenProtestantism in the 18th and
19th century, which was fightingfor religious freedom, for the
(03:29):
many new Protestantdenominations, and for
separation of state and church.
What I see in the US right now,I was watching some days ago
the memorial service for CharlieKirk.
What we see there right againis again an alliance, in this
case, with evangelicalism, withthe government or with the
(03:52):
state.
And I'm wondering whether thatis really the calling of the
church as such, ofevangelicalism as such.
You know, if you look at thefirst and second century,
Christians were a minority,Christians were persecuted,
evangelicals or Christians werecountercultural.
And I think what I observe, atleast from an outside
(04:16):
perspective, I think what we seein the US right now is that
they form an alliance to pushthrough their agenda.
And I'm just wondering whetherthat really is the calling of
the church.
But again, I'm speaking from aEuropean perspective.
Brian Stiller (04:30):
Well, that's what I really matters to me that we
get into another perspective.
I want to come back into this,Frank, but let's let's cycle
back to the beginning and laythe groundwork here.
Give us a definition.
Who are evangelicals?
This body of that make up aquarter of the church in the
world, about 650 million.
(04:50):
Who are evangelicals?
Where did they come from?
Frank Hinkelmann (04:55):
Well, the term evangelical was originally
coming from the German termevangelism in the Reformation
period.
It was a term to describeProtestants.
And then from the 17th centuryonwards, it became a term a term
to define a group withinProtestantism, which was
emphasizing the authority of theBible, which was emphasizing
(05:18):
conversionism, which emphasizedthe centrality of the cross,
etc.
David Bebbington, a Britishhistorian, he more or less uh
did a groundbreaking study onthe history of evangelicalism in
in the UK.
And uh more or less everyonehas followed up that definition,
(05:41):
which at that time was adescription of what he noticed
in the UK setting.
But what we also need toacknowledge and be aware of,
what we see is thatevangelicalism has always been
transnational andtransconfessional.
Transnational, it means it wasyet similar movements in the UK,
(06:02):
in the new colonies in NorthAmerica, on the European
continent.
Uh and transconfessional meansthat you had believers within
different church traditions.
Within the Anglican church inthe United Kingdom, then
Methodism, which came up, thenyou had the pietistic movements
(06:23):
within the Lutheran Church inScandinavia and the
German-speaking countries, youhad pietistic groups within the
Reformed camp.
And then in the 19th century,you had all these new
denominations coming up, likethe early already, the Baptists,
the Methodists, I mentionedalready, Salvation Army,
(06:43):
Evangelical Free BrethrenMovement.
And they were all during therevivals of the 19th century
strongly connected.
And therefore, I thinkevangelicalism, especially since
the 19th century, has been aninterconfessional and
interdenominational um uhmovement, which then also led to
(07:07):
the founding of the WorldEvangelical Alliance in 1846.
Christians had come to knoweach other, they were working in
together in mission agenciesand in tract societies, Bible
societies, et cetera, et cetera.
And they noticed that despitecoming from different
denominational backgrounds, hey,we have one common interest,
(07:28):
which is to honor the LordJesus.
We hold to the authority ofScripture, we want to encourage
people to convert and committheir life to the Lord, and we
want to see mission beingadvanced.
These have been very much alsothe core issues for WA to come
into being.
Brian Stiller (07:49):
Frank, I know that a major study in religion
here in Canada showed that Ithink it was about 15 or 16
percent of Roman Catholics wouldself-identify as evangelical as
per the definition.
So you're saying that the thatevangelicalism, more than a
(08:09):
tradition or a denomination, isan idea?
Frank Hinkelmann (08:13):
Well, I I would, I mean, it it always
depends how you go aboutdefinitions.
You know, what you you see inthe 19th century or till the
19th century is also with theWorld Evangelical Alliance and
its founding that it was aProtestant, inner Protestant
movement with differentdenominations.
(08:35):
However, you also had pietisticmovements within the Roman
Catholic Church on the Europeancontinent during the 18th, 19th
century.
The first large revival inGermany, actually in Bavaria,
took place in the CatholicChurch and influenced all other
revival movements in the 19thcentury, early 19th century in
(08:55):
Germany.
But the question is, how do yougo about it?
Do you take a theologicaldefinition?
Then I think some in somecountries, some Catholics, Roman
Catholics would identifythemselves as evangelicals.
Uh if you go by traditionalhistorical definitions, that it
(09:16):
is an inner Protestant movement,like for example, many
evangelicals in Italy, Poland,Spain would do, then you will
certainly say no, it is onlyinter- or transconfessional
within Protestantism.
It depends on your definition.
Brian Stiller (09:34):
Yeah, it is.
Todd Johnson, who will have asa guest in one of our upcoming
podcasts, who is from the GlobalCenter of Research at Gordon
Conwell, in a recent studyshowing that there tends to be
not six hundred and fiftymillion evangelicals, but almost
(09:54):
a billion evangelicals asdefined by those who believe in
the essentials of what DavidBebbington has called the
quadrilateral, those four uh keyelements to Christian faith.
So it is by way of the numbersare are confined by way of the
(10:17):
framing, isn't it?
But let me let me go to this.
Frank Hinkelmann (10:19):
We recently had uh from a WA perspective, we
had uh a podcast with uh GinaSurlor from the World Christian
Database and uh Jason Mandrick,who is part of the the leader of
the Operation World Project,looking at numbers.
And again, you know, do youtake a very narrow approach?
Then you probably speak of 450million.
(10:41):
If you take a very wide uh uhbroad uh uh approach, then
you're probably close to the 1billion.
We with NWA usually use the 650million, but I think there are
good grounds also to movetowards the higher number.
Brian Stiller (11:00):
Okay, in the world today, globally, there are
there are three identifiablegroups that make up the 2.4, 2.5
billion Christians.
One is the Roman Catholics,which makes so which is the
Vatican is is their center.
So there's all about 1.2billion, about half Christians
(11:20):
would identify as beingVatican-centered Roman Catholic.
The World Council of Churches,which includes the Orthodox,
Orthodox have 300 million.
Within the World Council, theretends to be about 400 to 500
million.
And then the World EvangelicalAlliance, of which you and I are
part, are considered about 650million.
(11:43):
So, what I'd like to do, Frank,I'd like to move towards that
third group, the WorldEvangelical Alliance.
And you wrote, you just uhrecently published a history of
the World Evangelical Alliance.
Let's let's go into thatcategory and give us a give us a
thumbnail sketch, an historicaloutline of how that happened,
(12:05):
why it happened, and where ithappened.
Frank Hinkelmann (12:07):
Well, the World Evangelical Alliance was
founded actually in London in in1846 on the initiative of key
evangelical leaders,predominantly from Great
Britain, but also from theEuropean continent and some
North American Christians werepresent.
And one of the, as mentionedbefore, one of the driving
(12:31):
desires of those initiating theevangelical alliance to come
into being was the um growth ofliberalism, where evangelicals
strongly uh wanted to hold tothe authority of scripture,
which is actually true to thisday.
So fighting some of the liberalliberalism.
Brian Stiller (12:52):
And just give us a thumbnail sketch of what what
liberalism, what do you mean byliberalism?
Frank Hinkelmann (13:01):
By liberalism, I mean do I believe that the
Bible is the inspired word ofGod?
Do I believe in the bodilyresurrection of Jesus Christ?
Do I believe in the atoningdeath of Jesus Christ?
Those were a number of subjectsand issues which were
questioned by the majority ofthe traditional Protestant
(13:23):
denominations, especially on theEuropean continent and from
Europe that went on to the US aswell.
And that was where uhevangelicals in the 19th century
said, no, we want to hold tothese traditional Christian
convictions and theological uhconvictions.
(13:44):
And then as we look to thefurther development of the World
Evangelical Alliance, it wasoriginally not a denominational
grouping.
It was individuals who more orless had leadership
responsibilities within theiragencies and denominations, but
it was intentionally not a groupof churches or denominations
(14:07):
joining, but individuals.
And for the first, let's say,uh hundred years, it was the
British Evangelical Alliance whoalso had uh uh some top
national leaders, also frompolitical, from governmental
side, uh in their ranks thatwere influential in running and
leading the evangelicalalliance, and especially till
(14:31):
1918 in a number of Europeancontinental countries, Baptists,
Methodists, Brethren, SalvationArmy, believers who are not
even allowed to meet, not evenin private homes, to worship.
And the Evangelical Alliancewas a great defender of
religious liberty and freedom ofspeech during the 19th century.
(14:53):
They sent delegations to theemperor in Vienna to for because
uh American Presbyterians,churches, founded churches
founded by AmericanPresbyterians were uh closed
down in the Czech Republic.
They sent, and and they werenot only speaking up for the
religious freedom forevangelicals, but they went to
(15:14):
the Sultan of Constantinople,today's Istanbul, and spoke up
on behalf of the Armenianbelievers.
And for us it's unthinkable,but in the 1980s we had a
situation in Sweden where fiveladies, uh I think there were
five of them, wanted to convertfrom Lutheran faith to Roman
(15:35):
Catholicism.
And the government, because inSweden Lutheranism was still
state religion, were threateningto take the citizenship, the
Swedish citizenship away.
And the evangelical lines inthe UK then called for religious
liberty on behalf of theseSwedish ladies who actually
(15:55):
wanted to convert to RomanCatholicism.
Brian Stiller (15:59):
My grandfather and grandmother came from
Sweden, and I can't imagine thathappening there, but if you say
so, we believe it.
Frank, the the development ofevangelicals then, you brought
us up into the 20th century, butthe numbers show that from
1960, which identified about 90million evangelicals, it grew
(16:22):
from there to the 650 in theseensuing years.
What in the world happened totrigger such a growth in this
community?
Frank Hinkelmann (16:31):
I think uh it is the sovereign grace of God.
You know, he moved, especiallyin what we call either majority
world or global south.
Till the 1960s, 1970s, the Westwas always the driving force of
evangelicalism, Europe and andNorth America.
And what we have seen in thelast couple of decades is a
(16:53):
total shift.
You know, the majority, vastmajority of evangelicals today
live in the global south ormajority world.
I think currently we speak ofover 60% of evangelicalism, that
is predominantly in Africa,Latin America, and also in in
some countries in Asia.
(17:14):
And research assumes, expectsthat number to grow to 75% by
2050.
You know, if you look at theEdinburgh Mission, World Mission
Conference in 1910, I thinkthere were five, three or five
participants only from theglobal south.
(17:36):
Today, that would never everhappen again, you know.
So that is the major shift wehave seen.
And evangelicalism,interestingly enough, is the
only religious group whichdoesn't just grow because of
birth rates.
Evangelicals generally have ahigher birth rate than the
average population in mostcountries, but it uh growth
(18:02):
also, especially because ofconversionism.
So people decide to turn to theevangelical expression of the
Christian faith.
Islam also grows, but due tobirth rates.
Brian Stiller (18:15):
Isn't it remarkable, Frank, that during
my lifetime, I'm a little olderthan you, but during my
lifetime, secularity seemed tobe the dominant theme in my
country and certainly throughoutEurope.
And so when you have when youtell people that the church is
exploding around the world, theylook at you in disbelief.
Frank Hinkelmann (18:39):
Yes, that's true.
And I think part of the problemis that actually our worldview
is usually limited to the spherewhere we live.
We don't know what happensbeyond our own, let's say,
national, European, continental,or whatever world.
But I think we in a globalizedworld, we need to take that into
(19:02):
consideration.
And in that podcast I wasreferring to earlier with Gina
Solo and Jason Mandrak, theysaid actually it shouldn't be us
in the Western world, in theglobal north, defining what
evangelicalism is as we moveinto the future, but it should
be the global south, themajority world leaders who are
(19:23):
evangelicals to define whatevangelicalism is all about.
And the interesting thing is,you know, what we see in the
West is that through secularismand liberalism within the
Christian churches and theProtestant churches
predominantly, we see a decreaseof Christianity.
(19:45):
People are leaving the churchfrustrated.
Whereas in other parts, we areseeing major growth.
The largest, to give you oneexample, from the country I live
in, Austria, the largestevangelical denomination is the
Romanian Pentecostal Church,Church of God Cleveland in
(20:05):
Austria with 18,000.
All the other, the the AustrianPentecostal movement, which
also has a lot of Africanchurches in there, the
Evangelical Free, the Baptists,the Mennonites, and another
charismatic denomination, don'treach in total the number the
Church of God Cleveland has intotal.
(20:26):
And that is one of the some ofthe realities.
If you I can only speak ofEurope, if you look at uh
Ireland, if you look at many ofour countries, we see that
through the inflow also ofmigrants from Africa, from other
parts of Europe, from Asia, wesee a huge church growth.
Langham Partners just publisheda book on evangelicalism in
(20:51):
Europe, which I was co-editorwith.
And there is an article from agentleman in Ireland who says,
you know, because of theRomanian Pentecostal church in
Dublin, um building churchbuilding for over a thousand
people, I think.
The governor of the country forthe first time went to an
(21:14):
evangelical church.
You know, till then they werealways seen as cults, as sects
or whatever, evangelicals in apredominantly Roman Catholic
country.
Now, even with the help ofthese migrant churches, they
catch even the attention ofpoliticians and the and the
people as such, and the way theyare perceived seems to change
(21:35):
as well.
To give one more example, thatis not just due to migration.
The Bible Society in the UnitedKingdom did a research in
England, and we see that churchattendance in the H rank between
14 and 24 has increased between2013 and 2024 from 13 to 24
(21:59):
percent, more or less doubled.
And church attendance isactually measured if you go to
church, if you attend church atleast twice a month.
Young people of all kinds ofbackgrounds, and we see we see
similar things happening rightnow in France and maybe also in
other countries.
So it's quite an interestingexperience and observation.
Brian Stiller (22:22):
Uh, I just did a a uh a message to a church in
Kiev, Ukraine, uh, the SalvationChurch, which I I preach in
often.
And they have just completed anew church to house their
growing community in Kiev in themiddle of war.
So it's it's interesting to seethis development, this growth
(22:47):
globally, and even in Europe.
And of course, a spiritual tideraises all boats.
And I noticed that theCatholics have baptized more
young men in France and the U.S.
than they have in years.
Frank, let's come back to atopic that we talked about at
(23:08):
the top of the show.
And that's the the movementwithin the U.S.
built out of a historicalnotion that America was chosen
of God to be a special place ofhis manifestation, and a belief
(23:28):
that the leadership of thechurch should be such that the
country lives policy-wise andlaw-wise by Christian
principles.
Now, you're in Europe, andEurope and the US has a ocean
(23:49):
between you.
I live in Canada, and we justhave a very small 49th parallel
that divides us.
So we are very much aware dailyof what's going on in the U.S.
But I'm interested in helpingus understand that, first of
(24:10):
all, the U.S.
is not the world.
But over the last hundredyears, the evangelical community
in the U.S.
has been very influentialglobally in missions, in
communication, in publishing, ineducation, and so forth.
So while she may have maybe 10%of evangelicals worldwide, or
whatever that number might be,she has enormous influence.
(24:34):
And so what goes on in the U.S.
influences the rest of theworld.
I'm reminded though, TimKeller, who was former pastor in
New York, he passed away sometime ago, was asked as to
whether he wanted to findanother name than evangelical to
describe who he was.
(24:55):
And his line was classicallyKeller.
He said, Why should the rest ofthe world be beholden to 10% of
the world for self-definition?
I thought that pretty good.
But Frank, Frank, you're ayou're a historian, you're an
academic, you're a you're ayou're a church leader in
Europe.
What do you see going on andwhat sense do you make?
(25:18):
And we'll we'll follow that upwith some other questions, but
let's start there.
Frank Hinkelmann (25:22):
From a European perspective, I think we
look at some of the most recentdevelopments from a far more
critical perspective than manyevangelicals in the US would do.
Um I think many of us wouldstrongly urge for clear
separation between the churchand also evangelicalism as such,
(25:46):
then, and a government.
You have Christians indifferent parties, traditionally
in most of the uh Europeancountries.
You can probably say thatevangelicals have a tendency to
vote more towards the or leanmore towards the uh conservative
side, but you have them even inthe Green Party, you will find
(26:07):
evangelicals or social democratsuh or socialist parties.
So it is not as black-white asthings seem to be or come across
in in the US.
And I think what is importantto many Europeans is also, yes,
issues like abortion, likeLGBTQ, and all these kinds of
(26:30):
issues are important, butbiblical ethics are more
touching and covering moreissues, economic ethics,
political ethics, et cetera, etcetera.
And I think uh we struggle withthe idea that we just reduce it
to a limited number of issues.
(26:51):
And sure, a governor, a ruler,president, whatever, needs to
work for the best of thecountry.
But whether, as an evangelical,I can say this is good if it is
harming other countries, I'mnot so sure.
So I'm even struggling with avery strong American first
(27:13):
perspective.
Brian Stiller (27:15):
You're an American Christian, and you say,
I want my country to be moreChristian.
Is that is that somehow inviolation of the gospel to have
that wish?
Frank Hinkelmann (27:28):
Uh no, I mean we live in a democracy where we
can elect people, but I thinkwhere it gets critical is what I
observed, but again, I'm I'mspeaking from a far distance uh
right now, is when we start withthe council culture the other
way around.
We we have rightly criticizedthat uh a kind of left-wing
(27:52):
council culture has emerged,which corners us or uh even
starts to move against thefreedom of religion and freedom
of speech.
You know, the former Ministerof the Interior in Finland, a
lady, she was writing an emailto no on on social media to her
bishops.
She was a member of theLutheran Church or is a member,
(28:13):
I don't know, saying that theBible says that practiced
homosexuality is sin.
She was taken to court for hatespeech, and the court case is
now before the High Court ofFinland.
The case has been going on formany years.
So we have rightly criticizedthis, but I think we need to
(28:34):
watch that we don't enforce ourconvictions and beliefs for
which we should stand, but weshouldn't enforce them on other
others either.
What we see in church historyis, you know, if you look to the
whole medieval time, if youlook even at the Reformation
period and how Anabaptistmovements were were treated, you
(28:57):
know, if I enforce my personalconvictions, I think we are on
dangerous grounds, and we seethat throughout history.
Brian Stiller (29:07):
Okay, Frank, you have uh over the last number of
years, you've you've been chairof the European Evangelical
Alliance, but you've also servedon the the global body called
the International Council of theWorld Evangelical Alliance,
which is a which is thegoverning body that that that
that oversees the nine regionsthat are in the the body and
(29:30):
over 140 countries that are apart of it.
So we have this complex world.
We have the politicizationissue that uh we've just talked
about in the U.S.
And you you see this developingin other places on both the
left and the right, be it inBrazil, you see the kind of
surveillance that isintimidating in China.
(29:52):
Then we see wars at all kindsof levels, be it Gaza, Ukraine,
Sudan, Myanmar, those areActivities and yet we have the
church growing globally.
So, as a global body ofevangelicals, and you've
established the kind of thetheological base of who we are,
what we believe, what do you seeas being current and dynamic in
(30:18):
the rise of Christian faithglobally?
We see it through the eyes ofthe community that we're a part
of, and that you've been servingas a as a global vice chair.
See it through those eyes.
What do you see going on todaythat gives you hope and gives
you concern?
Frank Hinkelmann (30:37):
I think when it comes to hope, what is what
is unique about the WorldEvangelical Alliance is that we
are a grassroots movement.
So it's not this big bodytelling everyone else what we
do, what they need to do.
We are not top-down.
What we have nationalevangelical lines in many
countries there are regional,local evangelical lines.
(31:00):
We have a number of very strongregional evangelical allies.
And we can come alongside oneanother and help one another,
encourage one another and learnfrom one another.
I see huge potential also inthe global perspective.
Today we have members,national, National Evangelic
(31:22):
Alliance, or members of WA inover 140, probably 145
countries.
So we're quite a globalmovement.
Again, what where I see hope isthat if we come together and
see how we can support eachother, how we can uh strengthen
one another, how we can speak upfor our brothers and sisters
(31:44):
who might be persecuted in anumber of countries.
I think there is huge potentialthere.
Of concern to me is if I lookat the history since World War
II, the World EvangelicalFellowship was founded in 1951,
strongly influenced by uh on theinitiative of the National
(32:07):
Association of Evangelicals inthe US at that time.
What we have seen, we havealways struggled both
financially and alsostructurally.
We have not been good in uhcreating a structure which
really serves our purpose.
And if you look at recentyears, things haven't turned to
(32:30):
the better.
And I think with the with thenew general secretary taking on
uh leadership in WA, I think thethe huge challenge will be:
will we be able to create astructure, a healthy leadership
group as well, to help both theregions and the National
(32:55):
Evangelical Alliance to berelevant in their local, region,
and regional context?
And can we, as a global body,speak on behalf of evangelicals?
Brian Stiller (33:08):
So that begs the question, though, Frank, why has
it been difficult for thisglobal body with this global
infrastructure to finance itselfor to create this structure
that reflects its grassrootsnature and yet regional and
(33:28):
global leadership?
Frank Hinkelmann (33:30):
I think what we see on a WEA level, on a
world level, we also see on aregional and sometimes even on a
national evangelical alliancelevel.
Many of our nationalevangelical alliances have
churches, have denominations,have agencies as members, and
their first priority is tosupport their denomination, the
(33:51):
agency, et cetera.
So many of our evangelicalalliances even struggle to
finance the local and nationalministry.
We see the same on a regionallevel, and surely also on a
global level.
And I think the reality is manydonors also struggle to support
what they see as structures,especially global structures.
(34:14):
You know, they prefer to beinvolved in a hands-on project
in a country where you seeresults as such.
But you see, you don't alwayssee uh results, uh clear results
as you work on these structuralinternational global networks.
Brian Stiller (34:35):
There's one characteristic of evangelicals
that comes to mind is that we'revery entrepreneurial.
Someone has there's a need.
And as there was at the end ofthe Second World War in Korea,
and Bob Pierce came up with anidea today called world vision.
Somebody wants to meet aroundfaith in their home, and within
(34:59):
months you have a church built.
So you have denominations, youhave parachurch agencies, you
have NGOs, you havecongregations, and so our
organization, we're very flat.
We don't have a Vatican, we'revery flat.
So given that history and thatnature, and give and given that,
(35:20):
as I understand the developmentof WEA back in 1846 was the
desire for people from variousgroups to have unity in Christ
as as Jesus prayed to the Fatherin John 17.
How well are we doing?
And what do you see the futureas it relates to global unity?
Frank Hinkelmann (35:44):
I I'm I'm quite positive, you know,
because I see God at move, um, Isee uh the church growing,
especially in the global southand the majority world, as
mentioned before.
Um and people are comingtogether for prayer, for
evangelism, for mission.
(36:04):
And the network of theevangelical lines, be it on a
national, on a regional, andsometimes even on a global
network, is part of this.
Yeah.
And to give one example, we'recurrently supporting expat
(36:24):
communities and churches in oneof the Middle Eastern countries
to establish a legal entityunder our name so that they can
be recognized by the government.
Because they come from so manydifferent countries and are uh
evangelical yet but not linkedto one traditional recognized
denomination.
They struggle even to have alegal place in that in that
(36:48):
country.
And I think that's where we canhelp, because again, you know,
we have national EAs in thosedifferent countries where these
fellow believers come from.
And as you just says,evangelicalism has always been
mission-minded, entrepreneurial.
What we see is there are newinitiatives, like the global day
(37:09):
of prayer, like new outreachopportunities.
Right now, it's also anemphasis one of our regions in
Asia has, especially ondiscipleship.
The Galilean movement is movingtowards emphasizing
discipleship.
We have all these initiatives,and a network like and
fellowship like the WorldEvangelical Fellowship can help
(37:32):
to promote this as well.
Brian Stiller (37:34):
Frank, you've lived a full life.
You've got many years yetahead.
But as you look back over youryears of ministry in various
agencies as a professor, as apresident, principal of a
school, involved in leadershipin the global body, what's given
you the greatest satisfactionin your life in ministry?
Frank Hinkelmann (37:59):
I think my greatest satisfaction has been
to be part of what God is doingglobally.
I grew up as a child in Asia.
I'm a missionary kid, and I'vealways loved this international
sphere.
And to see, to be able to bepart of it, uh, to see how God
(38:23):
is at work and hopefully also toat least partially contribute
to that, I have found verysatisfactory and a huge, huge
blessing.
Brian Stiller (38:34):
Frank, let's let's look at somebody in their
mid-20s or their mid-30s, andthey're looking at their own
life and the world around them,and they have a deep desire to
serve the church and to servethe Lord.
But they don't know where tobegin.
They don't know how to startout in lifting themselves beyond
(38:54):
their own parochial and narrownational or denominational
confines.
So you're a missionary cad, youhave this world perspective.
How does that person start?
Where do they begin?
Frank Hinkelmann (39:12):
Uh let me first say, at least what I see
among uh young evangelicals inEurope is that they are far less
interested in denominationalissues.
They don't really bother, theylook for a church where they
feel at home and where they likethe preaching.
It's far less, you know, youcome from one denomination, you
stay for the rest of life inyour denomination.
(39:33):
That will certainly also playinto a role the evangelical
alliance can have as aninterdenominational or
transdenominational network.
The good thing about theevangelical alliance, we are a
grassroots movement.
So, you know, we can start on alocal level and say, hey, let's
(39:53):
get engaged.
I remember when I uh moved toAustria completing after
completing my theologicalstudies in Germany, you know, I
reached out to the EvangelicalAlliance and said, hey, I would
be interested to get involved inyouth ministries.
Yeah.
And then I was asked to head upthe youth committee.
So I think, and many of us whoare now in leadership positions
(40:14):
in the Evangelical Alliance willsay this is how we started on a
local level, growing intoleadership on then on a national
level and beyond that.
And again, you know, I thinkfor me it has been very
enriching to be part of I wasthe youth delegate at the
European Evangelical Alliance uhannual assemblies, you know.
(40:37):
I know many young people whohave been part of global uh
events like the GeneralAssemblies of the World
Evangelic Alliance.
That has been very influentialbecause they first of all, I
think it for you for every youngChristian, it's good to cross
their own national boundaries,to see the world is bigger than
(40:57):
I think, Christianity is biggerthan I think, to learn, to get
to know people from otherdenominations, from other
cultures.
And I think as they do this,they get also a broader
perspective of what God is doingglobally.
And I think that is a brilliantstarting point.
And therefore, I'm I'm quitehopeful for as we look into the
(41:19):
future with a young generationgrowing up and taking our place.
Brian Stiller (41:24):
Frank Hinkelmannan, thanks for joining
us on Evangelical 360 today.
It's been a wonderfully richand informative time.
Thank you.
Frank Hinkelmann (41:33):
Thank you very much for having me.
Brian Stiller (41:36):
Thanks, Frank, for joining me today.
Your expansive and historicalview of the world helps us see
better not only what is today,but how that which has been
formed over the last fewcenturies.
And my thanks to you for beingpart of the podcast.
Be sure to subscribe toEvangelical360 and share this
(41:57):
episode wherever you watch orlisten to this podcast.
And if you'd like to learn moreabout today's guest, check the
show notes for links and info.
If you haven't already receivedmy free ebook and newsletter,
just go to Brianstiller.com.
Thanks again.
Until next time.
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm your host, Brian Stiller.
All my life I've been a part ofthe Christian church known as
Evangelicals, a community ofchurch denominations and
ministries, which historicallyis part of the world Protestant
Church.
In the past few years, thiscommunity of evangelicals has
(00:31):
grown faster than any religiouscommunity in their history of
the world, a comment I make withcare.
In the past few decades, thischurch community has grown from
under 100 million just decadesago to over 600 million today.
However, in recent years,especially in the United States,
for historical and culturalreasons, the Native Evangelical
(00:55):
has been linked to a particularpolitical party, its policies
and values, and by so doing hasreconfigured its essence by this
political alignment.
This is not true globally.
And with that in mind, today Iwant you to meet Frank
Hinkelmann, a scholar andhistorian who will help us see
(01:16):
who this community has beenhistorically and how worldwide
it seeks to bring cohesion andunity to this wide-ranging
community which makes up aquarter of the world's
Christians.
And thanks for joining me.
And I know your time with Franktoday will be of value to your
understanding of the world andto this major community of
(01:38):
faith.
But as you listen, would youconsider sharing this episode
with a friend?
And if you haven't, just hitthe subscribe button and join
the conversation on YouTube.
Now to my guest, FrankHinkelmann.
Frank Hinkelmann, thank you forjoining us on Evangelical 360.
Frank Hinkelmann (02:00):
Thank you very much for the invitation to be
part of this.
Brian Stiller (02:03):
Frank, there's a lot of things I want to talk
with you about as historian andas uh senior leader in the world
evangelical community overthese years and especially out
of Europe.
But let me jump in right in andask you this question as we
look at the politicization ofevangelicals in the U.S.
(02:24):
In the 180 years that thisorganization, the World
Evangelical Alliance, has beenaround, or maybe even the
history of Protestantism, havewe ever had a particular time or
place where the evangelicalcommunity has been politicized
as we see it going on in theU.S.
today?
Frank Hinkelmann (02:45):
Well, from a church historical perspective, I
would say no, we haven't.
Especially if we look at thelast 200 years of evangelical
history, I think we need to saythis is quite a unique situation
where we are in.
If we go a bit further back, Imean what we have seen in during
the Reformation period is thatthere that the alliance between
(03:08):
a state and the church remained,which was there since
Constantine at the beginning ofthe fourth century, where this
alliance was originally formed.
And I think it was thenProtestantism in the 18th and
19th century, which was fightingfor religious freedom, for the
(03:29):
many new Protestantdenominations, and for
separation of state and church.
What I see in the US right now,I was watching some days ago
the memorial service for CharlieKirk.
What we see there right againis again an alliance, in this
case, with evangelicalism, withthe government or with the
(03:52):
state.
And I'm wondering whether thatis really the calling of the
church as such, ofevangelicalism as such.
You know, if you look at thefirst and second century,
Christians were a minority,Christians were persecuted,
evangelicals or Christians werecountercultural.
And I think what I observe, atleast from an outside
(04:16):
perspective, I think what we seein the US right now is that
they form an alliance to pushthrough their agenda.
And I'm just wondering whetherthat really is the calling of
the church.
But again, I'm speaking from aEuropean perspective.
Brian Stiller (04:30):
Well, that's what I really matters to me that we
get into another perspective.
I want to come back into this,Frank, but let's let's cycle
back to the beginning and laythe groundwork here.
Give us a definition.
Who are evangelicals?
This body of that make up aquarter of the church in the
world, about 650 million.
(04:50):
Who are evangelicals?
Where did they come from?
Frank Hinkelmann (04:55):
Well, the term evangelical was originally
coming from the German termevangelism in the Reformation
period.
It was a term to describeProtestants.
And then from the 17th centuryonwards, it became a term a term
to define a group withinProtestantism, which was
emphasizing the authority of theBible, which was emphasizing
(05:18):
conversionism, which emphasizedthe centrality of the cross,
etc.
David Bebbington, a Britishhistorian, he more or less uh
did a groundbreaking study onthe history of evangelicalism in
in the UK.
And uh more or less everyonehas followed up that definition,
(05:41):
which at that time was adescription of what he noticed
in the UK setting.
But what we also need toacknowledge and be aware of,
what we see is thatevangelicalism has always been
transnational andtransconfessional.
Transnational, it means it wasyet similar movements in the UK,
(06:02):
in the new colonies in NorthAmerica, on the European
continent.
Uh and transconfessional meansthat you had believers within
different church traditions.
Within the Anglican church inthe United Kingdom, then
Methodism, which came up, thenyou had the pietistic movements
(06:23):
within the Lutheran Church inScandinavia and the
German-speaking countries, youhad pietistic groups within the
Reformed camp.
And then in the 19th century,you had all these new
denominations coming up, likethe early already, the Baptists,
the Methodists, I mentionedalready, Salvation Army,
(06:43):
Evangelical Free BrethrenMovement.
And they were all during therevivals of the 19th century
strongly connected.
And therefore, I thinkevangelicalism, especially since
the 19th century, has been aninterconfessional and
interdenominational um uhmovement, which then also led to
(07:07):
the founding of the WorldEvangelical Alliance in 1846.
Christians had come to knoweach other, they were working in
together in mission agenciesand in tract societies, Bible
societies, et cetera, et cetera.
And they noticed that despitecoming from different
denominational backgrounds, hey,we have one common interest,
(07:28):
which is to honor the LordJesus.
We hold to the authority ofScripture, we want to encourage
people to convert and committheir life to the Lord, and we
want to see mission beingadvanced.
These have been very much alsothe core issues for WA to come
into being.
Brian Stiller (07:49):
Frank, I know that a major study in religion
here in Canada showed that Ithink it was about 15 or 16
percent of Roman Catholics wouldself-identify as evangelical as
per the definition.
So you're saying that the thatevangelicalism, more than a
(08:09):
tradition or a denomination, isan idea?
Frank Hinkelmann (08:13):
Well, I I would, I mean, it it always
depends how you go aboutdefinitions.
You know, what you you see inthe 19th century or till the
19th century is also with theWorld Evangelical Alliance and
its founding that it was aProtestant, inner Protestant
movement with differentdenominations.
(08:35):
However, you also had pietisticmovements within the Roman
Catholic Church on the Europeancontinent during the 18th, 19th
century.
The first large revival inGermany, actually in Bavaria,
took place in the CatholicChurch and influenced all other
revival movements in the 19thcentury, early 19th century in
(08:55):
Germany.
But the question is, how do yougo about it?
Do you take a theologicaldefinition?
Then I think some in somecountries, some Catholics, Roman
Catholics would identifythemselves as evangelicals.
Uh if you go by traditionalhistorical definitions, that it
(09:16):
is an inner Protestant movement,like for example, many
evangelicals in Italy, Poland,Spain would do, then you will
certainly say no, it is onlyinter- or transconfessional
within Protestantism.
It depends on your definition.
Brian Stiller (09:34):
Yeah, it is.
Todd Johnson, who will have asa guest in one of our upcoming
podcasts, who is from the GlobalCenter of Research at Gordon
Conwell, in a recent studyshowing that there tends to be
not six hundred and fiftymillion evangelicals, but almost
(09:54):
a billion evangelicals asdefined by those who believe in
the essentials of what DavidBebbington has called the
quadrilateral, those four uh keyelements to Christian faith.
So it is by way of the numbersare are confined by way of the
(10:17):
framing, isn't it?
But let me let me go to this.
Frank Hinkelmann (10:19):
We recently had uh from a WA perspective, we
had uh a podcast with uh GinaSurlor from the World Christian
Database and uh Jason Mandrick,who is part of the the leader of
the Operation World Project,looking at numbers.
And again, you know, do youtake a very narrow approach?
Then you probably speak of 450million.
(10:41):
If you take a very wide uh uhbroad uh uh approach, then
you're probably close to the 1billion.
We with NWA usually use the 650million, but I think there are
good grounds also to movetowards the higher number.
Brian Stiller (11:00):
Okay, in the world today, globally, there are
there are three identifiablegroups that make up the 2.4, 2.5
billion Christians.
One is the Roman Catholics,which makes so which is the
Vatican is is their center.
So there's all about 1.2billion, about half Christians
(11:20):
would identify as beingVatican-centered Roman Catholic.
The World Council of Churches,which includes the Orthodox,
Orthodox have 300 million.
Within the World Council, theretends to be about 400 to 500
million.
And then the World EvangelicalAlliance, of which you and I are
part, are considered about 650million.
(11:43):
So, what I'd like to do, Frank,I'd like to move towards that
third group, the WorldEvangelical Alliance.
And you wrote, you just uhrecently published a history of
the World Evangelical Alliance.
Let's let's go into thatcategory and give us a give us a
thumbnail sketch, an historicaloutline of how that happened,
(12:05):
why it happened, and where ithappened.
Frank Hinkelmann (12:07):
Well, the World Evangelical Alliance was
founded actually in London in in1846 on the initiative of key
evangelical leaders,predominantly from Great
Britain, but also from theEuropean continent and some
North American Christians werepresent.
And one of the, as mentionedbefore, one of the driving
(12:31):
desires of those initiating theevangelical alliance to come
into being was the um growth ofliberalism, where evangelicals
strongly uh wanted to hold tothe authority of scripture,
which is actually true to thisday.
So fighting some of the liberalliberalism.
Brian Stiller (12:52):
And just give us a thumbnail sketch of what what
liberalism, what do you mean byliberalism?
Frank Hinkelmann (13:01):
By liberalism, I mean do I believe that the
Bible is the inspired word ofGod?
Do I believe in the bodilyresurrection of Jesus Christ?
Do I believe in the atoningdeath of Jesus Christ?
Those were a number of subjectsand issues which were
questioned by the majority ofthe traditional Protestant
(13:23):
denominations, especially on theEuropean continent and from
Europe that went on to the US aswell.
And that was where uhevangelicals in the 19th century
said, no, we want to hold tothese traditional Christian
convictions and theological uhconvictions.
(13:44):
And then as we look to thefurther development of the World
Evangelical Alliance, it wasoriginally not a denominational
grouping.
It was individuals who more orless had leadership
responsibilities within theiragencies and denominations, but
it was intentionally not a groupof churches or denominations
(14:07):
joining, but individuals.
And for the first, let's say,uh hundred years, it was the
British Evangelical Alliance whoalso had uh uh some top
national leaders, also frompolitical, from governmental
side, uh in their ranks thatwere influential in running and
leading the evangelicalalliance, and especially till
(14:31):
1918 in a number of Europeancontinental countries, Baptists,
Methodists, Brethren, SalvationArmy, believers who are not
even allowed to meet, not evenin private homes, to worship.
And the Evangelical Alliancewas a great defender of
religious liberty and freedom ofspeech during the 19th century.
(14:53):
They sent delegations to theemperor in Vienna to for because
uh American Presbyterians,churches, founded churches
founded by AmericanPresbyterians were uh closed
down in the Czech Republic.
They sent, and and they werenot only speaking up for the
religious freedom forevangelicals, but they went to
(15:14):
the Sultan of Constantinople,today's Istanbul, and spoke up
on behalf of the Armenianbelievers.
And for us it's unthinkable,but in the 1980s we had a
situation in Sweden where fiveladies, uh I think there were
five of them, wanted to convertfrom Lutheran faith to Roman
(15:35):
Catholicism.
And the government, because inSweden Lutheranism was still
state religion, were threateningto take the citizenship, the
Swedish citizenship away.
And the evangelical lines inthe UK then called for religious
liberty on behalf of theseSwedish ladies who actually
(15:55):
wanted to convert to RomanCatholicism.
Brian Stiller (15:59):
My grandfather and grandmother came from
Sweden, and I can't imagine thathappening there, but if you say
so, we believe it.
Frank, the the development ofevangelicals then, you brought
us up into the 20th century, butthe numbers show that from
1960, which identified about 90million evangelicals, it grew
(16:22):
from there to the 650 in theseensuing years.
What in the world happened totrigger such a growth in this
community?
Frank Hinkelmann (16:31):
I think uh it is the sovereign grace of God.
You know, he moved, especiallyin what we call either majority
world or global south.
Till the 1960s, 1970s, the Westwas always the driving force of
evangelicalism, Europe and andNorth America.
And what we have seen in thelast couple of decades is a
(16:53):
total shift.
You know, the majority, vastmajority of evangelicals today
live in the global south ormajority world.
I think currently we speak ofover 60% of evangelicalism, that
is predominantly in Africa,Latin America, and also in in
some countries in Asia.
(17:14):
And research assumes, expectsthat number to grow to 75% by
2050.
You know, if you look at theEdinburgh Mission, World Mission
Conference in 1910, I thinkthere were five, three or five
participants only from theglobal south.
(17:36):
Today, that would never everhappen again, you know.
So that is the major shift wehave seen.
And evangelicalism,interestingly enough, is the
only religious group whichdoesn't just grow because of
birth rates.
Evangelicals generally have ahigher birth rate than the
average population in mostcountries, but it uh growth
(18:02):
also, especially because ofconversionism.
So people decide to turn to theevangelical expression of the
Christian faith.
Islam also grows, but due tobirth rates.
Brian Stiller (18:15):
Isn't it remarkable, Frank, that during
my lifetime, I'm a little olderthan you, but during my
lifetime, secularity seemed tobe the dominant theme in my
country and certainly throughoutEurope.
And so when you have when youtell people that the church is
exploding around the world, theylook at you in disbelief.
Frank Hinkelmann (18:39):
Yes, that's true.
And I think part of the problemis that actually our worldview
is usually limited to the spherewhere we live.
We don't know what happensbeyond our own, let's say,
national, European, continental,or whatever world.
But I think we in a globalizedworld, we need to take that into
(19:02):
consideration.
And in that podcast I wasreferring to earlier with Gina
Solo and Jason Mandrak, theysaid actually it shouldn't be us
in the Western world, in theglobal north, defining what
evangelicalism is as we moveinto the future, but it should
be the global south, themajority world leaders who are
(19:23):
evangelicals to define whatevangelicalism is all about.
And the interesting thing is,you know, what we see in the
West is that through secularismand liberalism within the
Christian churches and theProtestant churches
predominantly, we see a decreaseof Christianity.
(19:45):
People are leaving the churchfrustrated.
Whereas in other parts, we areseeing major growth.
The largest, to give you oneexample, from the country I live
in, Austria, the largestevangelical denomination is the
Romanian Pentecostal Church,Church of God Cleveland in
(20:05):
Austria with 18,000.
All the other, the the AustrianPentecostal movement, which
also has a lot of Africanchurches in there, the
Evangelical Free, the Baptists,the Mennonites, and another
charismatic denomination, don'treach in total the number the
Church of God Cleveland has intotal.
(20:26):
And that is one of the some ofthe realities.
If you I can only speak ofEurope, if you look at uh
Ireland, if you look at many ofour countries, we see that
through the inflow also ofmigrants from Africa, from other
parts of Europe, from Asia, wesee a huge church growth.
Langham Partners just publisheda book on evangelicalism in
(20:51):
Europe, which I was co-editorwith.
And there is an article from agentleman in Ireland who says,
you know, because of theRomanian Pentecostal church in
Dublin, um building churchbuilding for over a thousand
people, I think.
The governor of the country forthe first time went to an
(21:14):
evangelical church.
You know, till then they werealways seen as cults, as sects
or whatever, evangelicals in apredominantly Roman Catholic
country.
Now, even with the help ofthese migrant churches, they
catch even the attention ofpoliticians and the and the
people as such, and the way theyare perceived seems to change
(21:35):
as well.
To give one more example, thatis not just due to migration.
The Bible Society in the UnitedKingdom did a research in
England, and we see that churchattendance in the H rank between
14 and 24 has increased between2013 and 2024 from 13 to 24
(21:59):
percent, more or less doubled.
And church attendance isactually measured if you go to
church, if you attend church atleast twice a month.
Young people of all kinds ofbackgrounds, and we see we see
similar things happening rightnow in France and maybe also in
other countries.
So it's quite an interestingexperience and observation.
Brian Stiller (22:22):
Uh, I just did a a uh a message to a church in
Kiev, Ukraine, uh, the SalvationChurch, which I I preach in
often.
And they have just completed anew church to house their
growing community in Kiev in themiddle of war.
So it's it's interesting to seethis development, this growth
(22:47):
globally, and even in Europe.
And of course, a spiritual tideraises all boats.
And I noticed that theCatholics have baptized more
young men in France and the U.S.
than they have in years.
Frank, let's come back to atopic that we talked about at
(23:08):
the top of the show.
And that's the the movementwithin the U.S.
built out of a historicalnotion that America was chosen
of God to be a special place ofhis manifestation, and a belief
(23:28):
that the leadership of thechurch should be such that the
country lives policy-wise andlaw-wise by Christian
principles.
Now, you're in Europe, andEurope and the US has a ocean
(23:49):
between you.
I live in Canada, and we justhave a very small 49th parallel
that divides us.
So we are very much aware dailyof what's going on in the U.S.
But I'm interested in helpingus understand that, first of
(24:10):
all, the U.S.
is not the world.
But over the last hundredyears, the evangelical community
in the U.S.
has been very influentialglobally in missions, in
communication, in publishing, ineducation, and so forth.
So while she may have maybe 10%of evangelicals worldwide, or
whatever that number might be,she has enormous influence.
(24:34):
And so what goes on in the U.S.
influences the rest of theworld.
I'm reminded though, TimKeller, who was former pastor in
New York, he passed away sometime ago, was asked as to
whether he wanted to findanother name than evangelical to
describe who he was.
(24:55):
And his line was classicallyKeller.
He said, Why should the rest ofthe world be beholden to 10% of
the world for self-definition?
I thought that pretty good.
But Frank, Frank, you're ayou're a historian, you're an
academic, you're a you're ayou're a church leader in
Europe.
What do you see going on andwhat sense do you make?
(25:18):
And we'll we'll follow that upwith some other questions, but
let's start there.
Frank Hinkelmann (25:22):
From a European perspective, I think we
look at some of the most recentdevelopments from a far more
critical perspective than manyevangelicals in the US would do.
Um I think many of us wouldstrongly urge for clear
separation between the churchand also evangelicalism as such,
(25:46):
then, and a government.
You have Christians indifferent parties, traditionally
in most of the uh Europeancountries.
You can probably say thatevangelicals have a tendency to
vote more towards the or leanmore towards the uh conservative
side, but you have them even inthe Green Party, you will find
(26:07):
evangelicals or social democratsuh or socialist parties.
So it is not as black-white asthings seem to be or come across
in in the US.
And I think what is importantto many Europeans is also, yes,
issues like abortion, likeLGBTQ, and all these kinds of
(26:30):
issues are important, butbiblical ethics are more
touching and covering moreissues, economic ethics,
political ethics, et cetera, etcetera.
And I think uh we struggle withthe idea that we just reduce it
to a limited number of issues.
(26:51):
And sure, a governor, a ruler,president, whatever, needs to
work for the best of thecountry.
But whether, as an evangelical,I can say this is good if it is
harming other countries, I'mnot so sure.
So I'm even struggling with avery strong American first
(27:13):
perspective.
Brian Stiller (27:15):
You're an American Christian, and you say,
I want my country to be moreChristian.
Is that is that somehow inviolation of the gospel to have
that wish?
Frank Hinkelmann (27:28):
Uh no, I mean we live in a democracy where we
can elect people, but I thinkwhere it gets critical is what I
observed, but again, I'm I'mspeaking from a far distance uh
right now, is when we start withthe council culture the other
way around.
We we have rightly criticizedthat uh a kind of left-wing
(27:52):
council culture has emerged,which corners us or uh even
starts to move against thefreedom of religion and freedom
of speech.
You know, the former Ministerof the Interior in Finland, a
lady, she was writing an emailto no on on social media to her
bishops.
She was a member of theLutheran Church or is a member,
(28:13):
I don't know, saying that theBible says that practiced
homosexuality is sin.
She was taken to court for hatespeech, and the court case is
now before the High Court ofFinland.
The case has been going on formany years.
So we have rightly criticizedthis, but I think we need to
(28:34):
watch that we don't enforce ourconvictions and beliefs for
which we should stand, but weshouldn't enforce them on other
others either.
What we see in church historyis, you know, if you look to the
whole medieval time, if youlook even at the Reformation
period and how Anabaptistmovements were were treated, you
(28:57):
know, if I enforce my personalconvictions, I think we are on
dangerous grounds, and we seethat throughout history.
Brian Stiller (29:07):
Okay, Frank, you have uh over the last number of
years, you've you've been chairof the European Evangelical
Alliance, but you've also servedon the the global body called
the International Council of theWorld Evangelical Alliance,
which is a which is thegoverning body that that that
that oversees the nine regionsthat are in the the body and
(29:30):
over 140 countries that are apart of it.
So we have this complex world.
We have the politicizationissue that uh we've just talked
about in the U.S.
And you you see this developingin other places on both the
left and the right, be it inBrazil, you see the kind of
surveillance that isintimidating in China.
(29:52):
Then we see wars at all kindsof levels, be it Gaza, Ukraine,
Sudan, Myanmar, those areActivities and yet we have the
church growing globally.
So, as a global body ofevangelicals, and you've
established the kind of thetheological base of who we are,
what we believe, what do you seeas being current and dynamic in
(30:18):
the rise of Christian faithglobally?
We see it through the eyes ofthe community that we're a part
of, and that you've been servingas a as a global vice chair.
See it through those eyes.
What do you see going on todaythat gives you hope and gives
you concern?
Frank Hinkelmann (30:37):
I think when it comes to hope, what is what
is unique about the WorldEvangelical Alliance is that we
are a grassroots movement.
So it's not this big bodytelling everyone else what we
do, what they need to do.
We are not top-down.
What we have nationalevangelical lines in many
countries there are regional,local evangelical lines.
(31:00):
We have a number of very strongregional evangelical allies.
And we can come alongside oneanother and help one another,
encourage one another and learnfrom one another.
I see huge potential also inthe global perspective.
Today we have members,national, National Evangelic
(31:22):
Alliance, or members of WA inover 140, probably 145
countries.
So we're quite a globalmovement.
Again, what where I see hope isthat if we come together and
see how we can support eachother, how we can uh strengthen
one another, how we can speak upfor our brothers and sisters
(31:44):
who might be persecuted in anumber of countries.
I think there is huge potentialthere.
Of concern to me is if I lookat the history since World War
II, the World EvangelicalFellowship was founded in 1951,
strongly influenced by uh on theinitiative of the National
(32:07):
Association of Evangelicals inthe US at that time.
What we have seen, we havealways struggled both
financially and alsostructurally.
We have not been good in uhcreating a structure which
really serves our purpose.
And if you look at recentyears, things haven't turned to
(32:30):
the better.
And I think with the with thenew general secretary taking on
uh leadership in WA, I think thethe huge challenge will be:
will we be able to create astructure, a healthy leadership
group as well, to help both theregions and the National
(32:55):
Evangelical Alliance to berelevant in their local, region,
and regional context?
And can we, as a global body,speak on behalf of evangelicals?
Brian Stiller (33:08):
So that begs the question, though, Frank, why has
it been difficult for thisglobal body with this global
infrastructure to finance itselfor to create this structure
that reflects its grassrootsnature and yet regional and
(33:28):
global leadership?
Frank Hinkelmann (33:30):
I think what we see on a WEA level, on a
world level, we also see on aregional and sometimes even on a
national evangelical alliancelevel.
Many of our nationalevangelical alliances have
churches, have denominations,have agencies as members, and
their first priority is tosupport their denomination, the
(33:51):
agency, et cetera.
So many of our evangelicalalliances even struggle to
finance the local and nationalministry.
We see the same on a regionallevel, and surely also on a
global level.
And I think the reality is manydonors also struggle to support
what they see as structures,especially global structures.
(34:14):
You know, they prefer to beinvolved in a hands-on project
in a country where you seeresults as such.
But you see, you don't alwayssee uh results, uh clear results
as you work on these structuralinternational global networks.
Brian Stiller (34:35):
There's one characteristic of evangelicals
that comes to mind is that we'revery entrepreneurial.
Someone has there's a need.
And as there was at the end ofthe Second World War in Korea,
and Bob Pierce came up with anidea today called world vision.
Somebody wants to meet aroundfaith in their home, and within
(34:59):
months you have a church built.
So you have denominations, youhave parachurch agencies, you
have NGOs, you havecongregations, and so our
organization, we're very flat.
We don't have a Vatican, we'revery flat.
So given that history and thatnature, and give and given that,
(35:20):
as I understand the developmentof WEA back in 1846 was the
desire for people from variousgroups to have unity in Christ
as as Jesus prayed to the Fatherin John 17.
How well are we doing?
And what do you see the futureas it relates to global unity?
Frank Hinkelmann (35:44):
I I'm I'm quite positive, you know,
because I see God at move, um, Isee uh the church growing,
especially in the global southand the majority world, as
mentioned before.
Um and people are comingtogether for prayer, for
evangelism, for mission.
(36:04):
And the network of theevangelical lines, be it on a
national, on a regional, andsometimes even on a global
network, is part of this.
Yeah.
And to give one example, we'recurrently supporting expat
(36:24):
communities and churches in oneof the Middle Eastern countries
to establish a legal entityunder our name so that they can
be recognized by the government.
Because they come from so manydifferent countries and are uh
evangelical yet but not linkedto one traditional recognized
denomination.
They struggle even to have alegal place in that in that
(36:48):
country.
And I think that's where we canhelp, because again, you know,
we have national EAs in thosedifferent countries where these
fellow believers come from.
And as you just says,evangelicalism has always been
mission-minded, entrepreneurial.
What we see is there are newinitiatives, like the global day
(37:09):
of prayer, like new outreachopportunities.
Right now, it's also anemphasis one of our regions in
Asia has, especially ondiscipleship.
The Galilean movement is movingtowards emphasizing
discipleship.
We have all these initiatives,and a network like and
fellowship like the WorldEvangelical Fellowship can help
(37:32):
to promote this as well.
Brian Stiller (37:34):
Frank, you've lived a full life.
You've got many years yetahead.
But as you look back over youryears of ministry in various
agencies as a professor, as apresident, principal of a
school, involved in leadershipin the global body, what's given
you the greatest satisfactionin your life in ministry?
Frank Hinkelmann (37:59):
I think my greatest satisfaction has been
to be part of what God is doingglobally.
I grew up as a child in Asia.
I'm a missionary kid, and I'vealways loved this international
sphere.
And to see, to be able to bepart of it, uh, to see how God
(38:23):
is at work and hopefully also toat least partially contribute
to that, I have found verysatisfactory and a huge, huge
blessing.
Brian Stiller (38:34):
Frank, let's let's look at somebody in their
mid-20s or their mid-30s, andthey're looking at their own
life and the world around them,and they have a deep desire to
serve the church and to servethe Lord.
But they don't know where tobegin.
They don't know how to startout in lifting themselves beyond
(38:54):
their own parochial and narrownational or denominational
confines.
So you're a missionary cad, youhave this world perspective.
How does that person start?
Where do they begin?
Frank Hinkelmann (39:12):
Uh let me first say, at least what I see
among uh young evangelicals inEurope is that they are far less
interested in denominationalissues.
They don't really bother, theylook for a church where they
feel at home and where they likethe preaching.
It's far less, you know, youcome from one denomination, you
stay for the rest of life inyour denomination.
(39:33):
That will certainly also playinto a role the evangelical
alliance can have as aninterdenominational or
transdenominational network.
The good thing about theevangelical alliance, we are a
grassroots movement.
So, you know, we can start on alocal level and say, hey, let's
(39:53):
get engaged.
I remember when I uh moved toAustria completing after
completing my theologicalstudies in Germany, you know, I
reached out to the EvangelicalAlliance and said, hey, I would
be interested to get involved inyouth ministries.
Yeah.
And then I was asked to head upthe youth committee.
So I think, and many of us whoare now in leadership positions
(40:14):
in the Evangelical Alliance willsay this is how we started on a
local level, growing intoleadership on then on a national
level and beyond that.
And again, you know, I thinkfor me it has been very
enriching to be part of I wasthe youth delegate at the
European Evangelical Alliance uhannual assemblies, you know.
(40:37):
I know many young people whohave been part of global uh
events like the GeneralAssemblies of the World
Evangelic Alliance.
That has been very influentialbecause they first of all, I
think it for you for every youngChristian, it's good to cross
their own national boundaries,to see the world is bigger than
(40:57):
I think, Christianity is biggerthan I think, to learn, to get
to know people from otherdenominations, from other
cultures.
And I think as they do this,they get also a broader
perspective of what God is doingglobally.
And I think that is a brilliantstarting point.
And therefore, I'm I'm quitehopeful for as we look into the
(41:19):
future with a young generationgrowing up and taking our place.
Brian Stiller (41:24):
Frank Hinkelmannan, thanks for joining
us on Evangelical 360 today.
It's been a wonderfully richand informative time.
Thank you.
Frank Hinkelmann (41:33):
Thank you very much for having me.
Brian Stiller (41:36):
Thanks, Frank, for joining me today.
Your expansive and historicalview of the world helps us see
better not only what is today,but how that which has been
formed over the last fewcenturies.
And my thanks to you for beingpart of the podcast.
Be sure to subscribe toEvangelical360 and share this
(41:57):
episode wherever you watch orlisten to this podcast.
And if you'd like to learn moreabout today's guest, check the
show notes for links and info.
If you haven't already receivedmy free ebook and newsletter,
just go to Brianstiller.com.
Thanks again.
Until next time.
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