November 21, 2025 • 41 mins
What if the most generous thing you could do wasn’t another grant, but a business that outlives the donation? In this episode we sit down with Dr. Kim Tan—biochemist, venture investor, and pioneer of social impact funds—to rethink how giving can build jobs, dignity and systems that last.
From a high-risk bet on a safari reserve in South Africa’s poorest province, to a network of 10,000 low-cost schools educating three million children, Dr. Tan shows how enterprise-based solutions can scale where traditional aid often stalls.
We unpack the core thesis: nations don’t transform through charity alone; they transform when capital builds real companies. Dr. Kim explains why the “missing middle” of small and medium enterprises is critical in emerging markets, how patient capital and hands-on mentorship reduce risk, and why the first screen is financial viability—even for mission-driven work.
Faith is woven throughout the conversation. Dr. Kim shares a kingdom-centered vision that is incarnational, sacrificial, and focused on transformation. Whether you’re a philanthropist, investor, or believer who wants your generosity to matter for the long haul, this conversation offers a clear, tested roadmap for turning compassion into sustainable prosperity.
If you'd like to learn more about the Transformational Business Network you can go to their website and social media for Asia and Africa.
And please don't forget to share this episode and join the conversation on YouTube!
____________________
▶ Watch Interviews on YouTube
▶ Sign Up for FREE Dispatches From the Global Village
▶ Free Downloadable eBook "Here's Hope"
▶ More Info: evangelical360.com
#evangelical360
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brian Stiller (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm your host, Brian Stiller.
Giving is a core part of theChristian faith.
I've come to see generosity asa direct outgrowth of one's
vision of life.
We've become accustomed tohearing appeals from numerous
(00:30):
Christian organizations, such asWorld Vision, calling us to
support their efforts inbringing healing and wholeness
to people in need, or to respondto disasters all over the
world.
Who can turn away from astarving child in Sudan or Gaza,
from the broken bodies inshattered homes in Ukraine, or
(00:52):
the residents of crumbling homesafter an earthquake in Turkey?
Bill Gates has said that whengovernments and business cannot
deliver solutions to humanproblems, philanthropy must step
in.
But how much does this givingreally change life for people on
the ground?
Does it just get us to anothermonth when more aid is required?
(01:16):
That's the topic my guesttoday, Dr.
Kim Tan, will be talking about.
Kim is from Malaysia.
He holds a PhD in biochemistryand did three postdoctoral
fellowships with the MedicalResearch Council in the UK.
He chairs a private fundmanagement company group that
(01:37):
specializes in biotech andventure capital investments.
But here's the surprising part.
This biochemist has turned hisskills and energy to generating
activities of philanthropy thatchanged lives and communities.
He has a distinct approach thathe says delivers lasting
(02:04):
solutions to very real problems.
He's been a pioneer of socialimpact investing for over 25
years and is a partner inseveral social impact funds in
Africa and Asia.
On today's program, we'll learnwhy Dr.
Tan got involved in this workand hear his unique, exciting
(02:25):
ideas for making Christiangiving and investing more
effective.
And thanks to you for being apart of this podcast.
Please consider sharing thisepisode with a friend.
And if you haven't done soalready, please hit the
subscribe button and join theconversation on YouTube in the
comments below.
(02:46):
Now to my guest, Dr.
Kim Tan.
Dr.
Kim Tan, thank you for joiningus on Evangelical 360.
Kim Tan (02:55):
Absolute pleasure, Brian.
Brian Stiller (02:57):
Kim, you have a remarkable career and message
for us today.
As a philanthropist, when Ithink of philanthropy, I think
of an organization or a ministrygoing to a foundation, Bill
Gates or whomever, and askingfor a foundation gift to fund a
(03:19):
project or fund an organization.
But you come at philanthropy ina very, very different way.
You have this notion ofsustainable prosperity.
What is your vision?
What's the idea that drivesyour philanthropy?
Kim Tan (03:34):
I think uh, Brian, very simply put, you know, there is
no evidence in history at allthat any country has ever been
transformed through aid andcharity and philanthropy.
They've all been transformedthrough some kind of economic
(03:55):
investments.
Um, and and so what we aredoing basically is looking at a
social or environmental issueand saying instead of doing
charity and doing philanthropy,can we, primarily as business
people, design enterprise-basedsolutions that are more
(04:16):
sustainable, more scalable, andalso I think confers more
dignity on the people on thegrants.
Uh so instead of just kind ofcontinuous grant making where
people are just spending so muchtime just trying to do reports
and apply for more grants, wereally wanted to identify
(04:41):
talented local entrepreneurs andsee if we can give them enough
capital, enough mentorship tohelp them to grow uh and scale
their business and so that theybecome sustainable and create
more jobs.
Brian Stiller (04:56):
Kim, a few years ago, an African writer wrote a
book called Dead Aid, whichdescribed the the gifting
towards various groups.
In in the countries that uh ofthe continent Africa that she
was writing about, she felt thatthat charity became welfare,
(05:19):
which diminished the activitiesof people in living in a
sustainable and economicenvironment.
Is that what you're saying?
Kim Tan (05:28):
I think so.
Um so that was the ambitionmoylo when she was at Goldman
Sachs.
Brian Stiller (05:34):
Yes.
Kim Tan (05:34):
Uh and uh, but maybe we shouldn't throw out the
philanthropy.
There is a key role inphilanthropy, even in what we're
doing, and and we can we cantalk a little about that.
So there is an important rolefor philanthropy and for charity
still, particularly in areasthat are really difficult uh to
(05:56):
find enterprise-based solutions.
Uh, but the reality is, unlesscountries develop economically,
they will not be able to providehealthcare for their people.
They will not be able to buildtheir roads.
So, you know, are are we are wegonna continue looking to
(06:16):
countries to be dependent on youknow Western nations uh for
philanthropy and aid for theireducation, for their healthcare
sector, and for their uhsanitation and and so on.
I I think at the end of theday, what we want to see is
(06:36):
countries and communities thatare economically uh strong
enough to provide forthemselves.
Brian Stiller (06:44):
I want to cycle back and get into those into
those, but I'd like to establishwho you are.
You're a Malaysian, you're abiochemist, now you live in
England as a philanthropist, asan investor.
Give us a thumbnail sketch ofyour life and how you ended up
where you are.
Grew up poor.
Kim Tan (07:03):
Uh parents were immigrants from China into
Malaysia, um, and then came toBritain.
Um I've had I kind of had threecareers, Brian.
You know, the first career hasbeen in science, um, allergy
around cancer of the pancreasand diabetes and stem cells.
And then I bailed out often bythird postdoctor because I
(07:26):
frankly wasn't smart enough uhto be a uh a top-flight stylist,
and then went into a secondcareer in biotech.
I began building a number ofbiotech companies, ended up
running a biotech uh fund.
And then uh on a trip to SouthAfrica for the first time in
(07:47):
Africa, some 25 years ago now, Ijust uh spent half a day in the
largest slum just outside CapeTown and became disillusioned
with my own philanthropy.
I thought I could write anothercheck here, but it wasn't going
to make any difference.
And it wasn't a good use of thetalent and the gifts that God
(08:10):
has given me.
And I had a very strong callingthen to not run a second
biotech fund, but to uh use myexperience in in venture capital
to start building enterprisesuh in South Africa.
And uh there chose the poorestprovince, which was the Eastern
(08:34):
Cape, and ended up building asafari game park uh there.
And and that's the really hasbeen the journey.
And I learned a lot duringthose years that you can, if
you're intentional and if you'renot looking for a single bottom
line return on your investment,you can invest in this kind of
(08:55):
way and uh and grow thesebusinesses to scale.
Brian Stiller (08:59):
What was going on in your mind as you were there
25 years ago, you see thepoverty.
What how did a game part cometo mind?
And what did you have in mindthat you needed to do to
generate this idea, this thisenterprise?
Kim Tan (09:17):
Well, um, it was just data.
Brian, um I I, you know, if Iwas going to fly in and out uh
into South Africa from London, Iwanted to go to the poorest
province.
So I asked, where was thepoorest province?
They all said Eastern Cape.
Secondly, the question was,well, what can you build in the
(09:38):
Eastern Cape, right?
Um, and uh uh what I saw wasclearly that destination number
one for tourists was Cape Town.
Still is, it is a beautifulcity.
Second was Kruger NationalPark, where they went for their
safari experience.
And the third was what iscalled the Garden Route, which
(09:59):
is the um the drive along thecoast, uh, all the way from Cape
Town up to Port Elizabeth.
And at the end of that, therewas just nothing to hold
tourists.
75%, 80% of them just flew outfrom there.
So I decided to sort of buildsomething there, and uh I was
(10:20):
going to do something small, myfaith wasn't that big.
Uh, it was, you know, a countryI didn't know.
And and bear in mind, this wasthe first year after Nelson
Mandela had stepped down.
This was uh Taboe Mbeke's uhfirst year as president, and
everyone was predicting civilwar.
The rent was depreciating bythe week.
(10:43):
It was just a really crazytime.
Long story, I was gonna buildsomething small and thought that
would be my sort of dischargingof this calling.
Uh, but uh the National ParksBoard heard about this crazy
Malaysian in London wanting todo something with land and
animals and called me and said,Look, you know, we run the third
(11:05):
largest national park here inPort Elizabeth.
We want to expand it.
Would you be interested to comeand collaborate with us?
And so, you know, I flew downand they flew down on a plane
from Pretoria, and we flew up ona plane, and they showed me the
whole area.
And right there in the in injust north of the national park
(11:26):
there, uh, I went on the ground,and you know, the district had
85% unemployment.
Brian Stiller (11:34):
Let me ask you one question.
Let me just go back to why didyou want to go to the poorest
place in South Africa?
What was be what was in yourmind to even want that?
Kim Tan (11:44):
Well, I thought if if we're gonna prove this out as a
way of tackling poverty, let'sgo to the poorest part.
The easiest thing would havebeen just to fly into Cape Town
and do something in Cape Town.
Brian Stiller (11:56):
Yeah, but I I still want to know what what was
in your mind, like what wereyou even thinking about when you
said you want to provesomething?
Uh what was what was your whatwas your motivation, what was
your vision that that led youeven to South Africa, to the
poorest place?
What did you have in mind todo?
Kim Tan (12:17):
Oh, the the the reason for South Africa was just
friendship.
Uh we had friends, very goodfriends, uh from my days at
university, and uh we werevisiting them.
So that was the reason there.
And I just fell in love withthe country.
And uh when I had this calling,I just wanted to go to the
poorest part of the country andyou know, see if we could really
(12:42):
do something that can betransformative for the
community.
But what was that calling?
The calling was really to usemy gifts, my resources, my time
to create these kinds ofenterprises that can be
transformative.
You see, Brian, 60 years ago,the GDP of Ghana and Kenya was
(13:02):
higher than the GDP ofSingapore, Malaysia, Taiwan,
Thailand, Hong Kong, right?
And yet Africa has received theequivalent of six Marshall
Plants.
Asia has not had any kind ofaid, uh, or even to this day, no
real philanthropy and certainlyno microfinance.
(13:23):
And yet these countries, thesetiger economies have transformed
themselves really through uhforeigners uh investing in our
countries there, uh and creatingjobs for our people, upskilling
us, and then inspiring ageneration of local
entrepreneurs.
And Africa is not gonna be anydifferent unless we
(13:46):
intentionally go and invest tobuild these kinds of
enterprises.
Uh, nothing much is gonnachange.
So that's the motivation forgoing into uh that part of South
Africa, 85% unemployment.
I, as a philanthropist, bro, Icould have built a school, a
clinic, an orphanage, all thestandard stuff, but nothing was
(14:10):
gonna change.
All right.
So so the vision very much wasto create a large enough
enterprise uh that couldcatalyze change.
And what happened?
Well, over a three and a halfyear period, a lot of drinking
of Reibos tea, uh, we managed tobuy 21 farms, uh 40,000 acres.
(14:36):
Uh we then had to clean it up,lots of internal fences and
windmills and buildings, andthen ripped out all the foreign
vegetation, fenced 75 kilometersof elephant-proof fencing, and
then brought in big game uh intothat part of South Africa for
(14:56):
the first time in 150 years, andthen spent two years building a
luxury lodge with the staffvillage, not knowing several
things.
One, can you reallyrehabilitate degraded land?
Two, will animals like beingtransferred there?
Uh, would they be happy?
Three, would tourists come?
(15:18):
Four, uh, we don't know whetherwe could intentionally hire
local people and upskill them toserve five-star guests.
Those are all the unknowns.
Um, and uh, and that was thatwas part of the part of the
experiment, I guess.
Brian Stiller (15:36):
And what did you find?
Did you were you able to trainindigenous local personnel to to
serve this enterprise?
Kim Tan (15:45):
Yeah, um, you know, but for a hiatus over COVID, um we
are about four four years behindplanned, but the the whole
enterprise is now profitable,pays a dividend.
We employ all, entirely employnow, I think, uh all local
(16:06):
people from our community.
Brian Stiller (16:08):
So what were the what were the hard lessons you
learned from this that areserving you now as you as you
continue into other uh impactinvestments?
I think the first thing isyou've got to have the clear
calling.
Kim Tan (16:22):
I mean this is tough.
This is really tough.
I think then you've got to bepatient, you know, with that
calling.
You will have a lot ofdisappointment, and particularly
disappointment with people whodon't have life skills.
So we have had lots ofdisappointments with people whom
(16:44):
we think uh have the potentialto grow and develop to be
leaders.
Uh, and then something happens,usually drink.
Alcohol is a big problem forus.
Um, and um and drink has reallydestroyed quite a number of
really promising people we'vehad over the years.
(17:04):
So you've got to be patient.
And and and more than anythingelse, I think, Brian, you you've
gotta um you've gotta have theability to create a culture
where everyone can flourish.
You know, we don't come in asdonors, we come in as
shareholders, we come in as um,you know, fellow directors uh
(17:31):
with the with the entrepreneurs.
Uh, and and we want to create aculture where everyone can
flourish.
It's too easy, you know, in thepast to have a donor uh
recipient kind of relationship.
Uh we we think in this kind ofway, we can say to the people
that we're investing with, youknow, look, we're we're
(17:53):
shareholders with you.
Brian Stiller (17:55):
Was the notion of of investment to create a
social impact, was this an ideathat that you learn from
somebody else?
Or did it somehow s come out ofyour christian Christian vision
of service?
Kim Tan (18:11):
I it it just it just kind of it just kind of made
sense.
And having come from SoutheastAsia, seeing the transformation
of the Tiger economies, it wasclear to me, you know, that
there's no other way forlong-term transformation of
countries, um, except throughinvestments.
(18:32):
And particularly investments inthe small, medium-sized
enterprises, right?
In a lot of the emergingeconomies, you have a lot of um
micro enterprises, smallbusinesses, and then you have a
small number of very largemultinationals.
But in between, there are very,very few small, medium-sized
(18:57):
enterprises.
But they are the backbones ofall our developed economies.
Almost, I think, 90% of all thebusinesses registered here in
the UK are all small,medium-sized enterprises.
Enterprises that employ 50people up to you know several
hundred.
Um, they are the backbone ofall our economies.
(19:20):
But in Africa and in emergingcountries, they're absent.
It's what economists call themissing middle.
Brian Stiller (19:29):
How many staff would you have in South Africa?
Kim Tan (19:32):
At the large, uh about 60 permanent, full-time.
And then we have lots of uhcontract workers who come into
specific projects.
Where did that?
So you started there.
Brian Stiller (19:46):
What was your next project?
Kim Tan (19:48):
My next project was uh a low-cost school in the slum,
the largest slum in Nigeria, uhin Kenya called Kibira.
Uh here is a uh a couple whohad sold their educational
publishing business in theUnited States.
Uh, she was a teacher, theywent gallivanting wrong wall,
(20:10):
and she spent some time teachingin China, then got thrown out,
ended up in the Kabira, and theysaw the problems there and
said, look, you know, we we needto come here and fix this.
We got to know them, and uhthere was nothing, no due
diligence needed because therewas nothing to show.
It was just an idea, and theywere willing to move their
(20:32):
family there.
Uh, and we just gave them acheck and said, look, go build a
few schools, do your iteration,change your model, do
whatever's needed.
When you have a few schools, wecan then bring some investors
along and you know, and get itproperly funded.
Um, I mean and and we andbasically we charge $5 per child
(20:55):
per month.
Everything is uh the curriculumis on uh tablets.
Parents pay us by mobile money,uh, we pay teachers and and and
suppliers by mobile money, anduh that way we cut down the back
office cost, and that's why wecan make it affordable at five
dollars roughly uh per child permonth.
(21:18):
And that went from, you know,and and when we made that
investment, Ryan, it was reallytackling the whole problem of
you know the horrible educationstandards.
Uh we we fail our childrengeneration after generation, uh
year after year.
Um so this is our way ofthinking, looking at that
problem, saying, can we use anenterprise-based approach?
(21:41):
Today, that school we investedin was in 2009.
Today, that is is now 10,000schools with 3 million kids in
schools every day, primaryschools in six countries.
So, you know, we we've learnedthat you can, if you're
(22:03):
intentional and you're notlooking for a single bottom line
return, you can invest in thiskind of way and build these
businesses to scale.
Brian Stiller (22:13):
So, using these two examples in South Africa and
Kenya, how much money is neededto invest in these projects?
What's the capital required?
Kim Tan (22:25):
It it all depends.
I mean, you know, when you'rebuying land and building
properties, it's it's a lot ofmoney.
Um, you're talking millions.
And likewise, when we startedthe school, that was, you know,
it wasn't expensive.
It was each school's budget wasabout $40,000, $50,000 for the
school.
But now that it's expanded, uh,you know, we've had to over
(22:50):
several rounds of financingaround.
I would say probably, I don'tknow, $50,000, $60 million have
gone into the schools now toexpand into six countries.
Brian Stiller (23:02):
You bring that at capital investment into the
project, and you expect thatthat project will produce
revenue that's profitable.
If it's not profitable, itdies.
Kim Tan (23:17):
We we can't do it.
So so this is the interestingthing, Brian.
You know, although we callourselves social impact, our
first screen is actuallyfinancial.
Because if it's not profitable,we just become a charity.
Um, so so we need to know howmuch money do you need, over
what period of time, and we ifwe trust the management and we
(23:41):
have can have a role in terms ofstrategy and and guiding the
management, we will then reservethat funding so that these
businesses don't run out ofcash.
Uh and um so yeah, we'retalking, we're talking real
investments.
Brian Stiller (23:57):
And so the your investor expects a reasonable
return.
Correct.
Kim Tan (24:02):
And it all depends on the investor.
We have investors who arefamily offices who say, look,
and this is what we'll say tothem, carry on doing your
philanthropy, right?
There is an important place forphilanthropy.
Carry on doing that.
But maybe do a small allocationand we'll help you do this kind
of investing.
(24:22):
And they would say to us, wecan't take any return, just give
our capital back.
So that's fine, that's great.
We have others, smallershareholders who say, you know,
my bond rates, well, 10 yearsago, bond rates were at 0.5%.
You know, so if you can give me2% plus the social impact, I'm
(24:44):
happy.
Uh, but now with our morestructured funds, so over the
over the last 20 years, we'vebeen challenging people to leave
their day jobs, running techVCs and PE funds to now run
these social impact funds.
And now our main shareholdersare the sovereign wealth funds,
uh, the North funds of thisworld, the BII here in the UK
(25:07):
and the FMOs.
Um, and they are looking for areturn.
So we we we are now in the uharea where we're having to
provide much higher rates ofreturn than, say, the family
offices and and privateindividuals require.
Brian Stiller (25:25):
Uh let's bring this down to an average donor,
maybe a significant donor.
So all their life, they havethey have operated on the basis
of I'll make my investment andget my return on this side, and
on this side, I will be, I'llrun my own charity, I'll run my
(25:46):
own donation portfolios, and Iwill give money to various
ministries or to NGOs that aredoing good.
So you have those two pockets.
What do you suggest to peopleto think about as they look at
their own resources and how theyhandle the resources as it
(26:07):
relates to the well-being ofothers?
Kim Tan (26:09):
I think carry on with your your the two pockets, but
maybe on the philanthropicpocket to do an allocation uh if
they want to see sustainable uhenterprises on the ground.
If they're just happy to keepgiving out grants to these
(26:31):
projects year after year afteryear, then fine, carry on doing
that.
But if they want to see realchange so that people become
independent, so they don't haveto come and ask for another
grant in three years' time, thenmaybe think about doing some
kind of investing in this kindof way, where you're you're not
(26:53):
looking just for a singleborder-line return.
You're looking for a socialimpact, you're looking for an
environmental return.
Um and and this is the messagewe've given to family officers
and philanthropists.
You know, there are areas thatare really tough to do uh using
an enterprise approach.
You know, education is one ofthem, health is the other one,
(27:17):
you know, but long-term, Brian,do we want to carry on providing
this kind of charity just foreducation and health?
Or do we want these countriesto become stronger so that they
can then provide our own uhcitizens uh for health care and
education?
Brian Stiller (27:38):
Very good question.
What comes to mind is thinkingof a donor, within our
evangelical community, often ourdonations are towards those
kind of ministries thatspecialize in evangelism or
discipleship, the reaching ofthe world with the message of
Christ.
Now, that seems to be adifferent objective than the
(28:02):
social impact that you aredescribing.
Those are two different arrows,if you like.
Kim Tan (28:10):
Probably two sides of a coin, I would say.
Um, you know, the gospel needsto be in word and deed.
Can't just be in word only.
Um, you know, show me love.
How do we love our neighbor?
Right?
And don't be surprised.
And what this is what surprisesus again and again when we do
(28:34):
this, people ask you, why areyou doing this?
You know, and what betteropening would you have to share
your faith, to share why you'redoing this, the motivation, you
know.
Why are you coming into this85% unemployment place?
Why are you coming to Islam tobuild toilets, you know, so that
(28:55):
we can use uh have have cleantoilets and proper sanitation?
Why are you doing this?
Well, because we we have a Godwho is compassionate towards the
poor, we have a God who callsus to um preach good news to the
poor, to set the captives free,um to release the oppressed
(29:20):
from oppression, so that theblind might see.
So and that might hear the yearof the Lord's favor, the
Jubilee year.
So those those are greatopportunities for us.
We we cannot disclose ordescribe the kinds of
(29:43):
opportunities that open up forus uh with the gospel because we
work in sensitive countries.
Brian Stiller (29:53):
Have we and I'm speaking here of evangelical
community, which is a largecommunity globally, one quarter
of the world's.
Christians, have we been caughtin a tension between the
capitalist initiative whichyou've been describing as being
(30:14):
somehow antithetical to thegenerous heart of a Christian?
Do we see those two as separateseparate sides or separate
visions of life?
Kim Tan (30:26):
I think we evangelicals have a kind of schizophrenic
view and attitude towardscapitalism.
You know, I think on the onehand, I mean, many, many
evangelicals uh are verycapitalistic in their outlook,
right?
And now on the other hand, weare afraid of profit.
We're afraid of making money.
(30:48):
You know, so we've been accusedof making money, you know, from
the poor.
Uh well, you know, in in oureducation, right?
And and and when I first sawthe data, uh, Brian, that
private schools in the slumsperform better than government
schools, I just reacted.
I thought, how can you chargethe poor for for education?
(31:10):
It should be free, right?
I mean, and I've been abeneficiary of free education,
courtesy of the generosity ofthe British government.
You know, they've given mescholarships after scholarship
and fellowships, uh and evengiven me a free grant to start
my first biotech company.
So how can you charge the poorfor education?
(31:32):
But you know, the interestingthing is the psychology.
When it's free, it's notvalued.
When you run courses free,people will come for the first
week and the second week, and bythe third week, they all drop
out.
When it's free, parents don'tfeel they can insist on better
(31:53):
standards for their children.
But when it's $5 roughly perchild per month, this is now an
investment because it could beabout 25-30% of the average
monthly wage.
Now they're turning up at thehead teacher's office and
saying, Why isn't my daughterperforming better?
(32:13):
And because also it's now theysee it as an investment, they
take more interest in theirchildren's homework.
And we all know, you know, ifparents are engaged with their
children's education, the kidsare gonna perform a lot better.
So, you know, we have this kindof um schizophrenic um
(32:39):
relationship with withcapitalism.
But without capital, countriesare not gonna change.
Uh and and this is the thereally the big, big need for all
these countries and and theentrepreneurs' uh access to
patient capital.
Brian Stiller (32:58):
Globally, there's a variety of initiatives like
Opportunity International, whichis a micro lending.
Is that the kind of uh uhsocial impact they that you
think is needed?
Yes.
Kim Tan (33:12):
Um I I think um there is uh uh still a place for for
microcredit and microfinanceinstitutions.
Uh I describe it as the fastestway to lift people out of
abject poverty into normalpoverty.
What is the next stage then?
(33:32):
Right?
And that's where that missingwill, that's where the small,
medium-sized enterprise comesin.
In many countries, it's veryeasy to borrow $100, even $1,000
through microfinance.
But try borrowing $50,000 tohalf a million dollars to scale
your business.
(33:53):
Uh in Kenya, the uh interestrate is 18% for top-tier
companies, businesses.
If you're not even in the toptier, not in first tier, it's
28% interest rates per year.
You can't you can't buildbusinesses that way.
Brian Stiller (34:12):
Your own personal life seems to be shaped by a
particular Christian worldview.
Uh, was that something that youwere raised with in your
family, or was this somethingthat has come to you uh as a
scholar and and as an investor?
Kim Tan (34:28):
Uh so there was no Christianity in and in our in
our family at all.
And if anything, um there wasuh a real antagonism.
And um I became I reluctantlybecame Christian just prior to
university through the help ofthe likes of C.
S.
Lewis and Francis Schaeffer umhelping me to think through uh
(34:54):
some of the problems and andquestions I had in my own mind.
Um but in terms of of my ownunderstanding, yeah, it's it's
it's it's really learned.
Um and primarily, I suppose,the overarching kind of guide
(35:16):
for me uh is the kingdom of God.
That was Jesus' own singularfocus, and and you know that's
that's my been my focus too.
Kingdom where there isrighteousness and and the word
righteousness is exactly thesame word, decay was in Greek
(35:39):
for the word justice.
Seek ye first the kingdom ofGod and his justice.
Uh and the whole Tiboli thingis about freedom and justice.
Uh that there should be no pooramong us in this kingdom.
So, so oh the uh big kind ofNorth Star for me uh is always
(36:04):
has always been the kingdom.
Brian Stiller (36:05):
And how does the kingdom work as it relates to
your investment?
Kim Tan (36:11):
I see the kingdom certainly in a number of
different um with a number ofdifferent features.
I think first of all, thekingdom for me is incarnational.
Right.
It's great to be able to sendmoney to a foreign country, to
an agency, to uh to you knowsomewhere uh an angel working in
(36:34):
the inner city, but it'snothing like turning up on the
ground, feet on the ground, andserving there.
When you have money, theeasiest thing to do in the world
is just write checks and givemoney.
It's very hard to give ourtime, and and I keep being
reminded again and again, ourLord gave us his time.
(36:59):
His time.
So that's one.
I think the other thing for mein terms of the kingdoms, it's
it's sacrificial.
If there's anything we want towe anything we learn from the
(37:22):
cross is that it's sacrificial.
And therefore, for me, wherethere is no sacrifice, there is
no eternal value.
You know, I can give a hundredthousand dollars to charity or
to uh a mission, but if I in myasset have a hundred million,
(37:50):
that's not a sacrifice.
That's not a sacrifice.
So the kingdom is aboutsacrifice.
The kingdom, I think, also isabout um transformation.
Everywhere Jesus went, thingschanged, things happen.
(38:11):
All right, people got fed.
Um and there was healing, uh,there was restoration.
Relationships were restored,broken lives were restored, the
woman at the well, the womanwith the alabaster vase, um,
there was restorationrelationships of broken lives
(38:34):
pieced together.
That's that's kingdomeverywhere we go.
That should be happening.
So when I see ex-offenderscoming out of prison in
Singapore from our call centerthere, and they come out and
they have lives restored, andtheir relationship with their
families restored, and thenthey're working for us now in
(38:54):
the call center of the city.
They now have a job, they havetheir dignity and something of
the image of God restored inthem.
That's that for me is akingdom.
That's that's what we that'swhat we're about.
Um so it's it's it's abouthuman flourishing.
The kingdom, wherever Jesuswent, there was flourishing,
(39:15):
immense flourishing all aroundhim, right?
And and and that to me is is iswhat the kingdom should be
about.
The the Jewish um uhtheologians have a have have a
really nice phrase, Brian, whichwe love.
It's called tikkunulam, whichtranslated means um repairing
(39:36):
the world in a state ofdisrepair.
And that's the calling, right?
It's really what Colossians andEphesians talk about, the
summing of all things,restoration, all things, uh into
Christ.
Um, and they they describe itas tikkunolam.
The kingdom is abouttikkunolam.
(39:57):
We're out there as agents torepair this world that is that
is broken in so many differentways.
Um, and and so those for me uhare sort of the sort of kingdom
features uh that that I live by.
Brian Stiller (40:14):
Dr.
Kim Tan, thank you so much forjoining us today on Evangelical
360.
That's a wonderful way toconclude this first interview
that we have with you, andthanks for joining us today.
Kim Tan (40:27):
It's my pleasure, Brian.
All the best.
Brian Stiller (40:31):
And many people will be surprised at your ideas,
but you have used them totransform lives, communities,
and industries.
And thank you to our faithfulfor being a part of the podcast.
Be sure to like this episodeand subscribe wherever you watch
or listen to this podcast.
(40:51):
And if you'd like to learn moreabout today's guest, you can
check the show notes for linksand info.
And if you haven't alreadyreceived my free ebook and
newsletter, just go toBrianStiller.com.
Thanks again.
Until next time.
Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360.
I'm your host, Brian Stiller.
Giving is a core part of theChristian faith.
I've come to see generosity asa direct outgrowth of one's
vision of life.
We've become accustomed tohearing appeals from numerous
(00:30):
Christian organizations, such asWorld Vision, calling us to
support their efforts inbringing healing and wholeness
to people in need, or to respondto disasters all over the
world.
Who can turn away from astarving child in Sudan or Gaza,
from the broken bodies inshattered homes in Ukraine, or
(00:52):
the residents of crumbling homesafter an earthquake in Turkey?
Bill Gates has said that whengovernments and business cannot
deliver solutions to humanproblems, philanthropy must step
in.
But how much does this givingreally change life for people on
the ground?
Does it just get us to anothermonth when more aid is required?
(01:16):
That's the topic my guesttoday, Dr.
Kim Tan, will be talking about.
Kim is from Malaysia.
He holds a PhD in biochemistryand did three postdoctoral
fellowships with the MedicalResearch Council in the UK.
He chairs a private fundmanagement company group that
(01:37):
specializes in biotech andventure capital investments.
But here's the surprising part.
This biochemist has turned hisskills and energy to generating
activities of philanthropy thatchanged lives and communities.
He has a distinct approach thathe says delivers lasting
(02:04):
solutions to very real problems.
He's been a pioneer of socialimpact investing for over 25
years and is a partner inseveral social impact funds in
Africa and Asia.
On today's program, we'll learnwhy Dr.
Tan got involved in this workand hear his unique, exciting
(02:25):
ideas for making Christiangiving and investing more
effective.
And thanks to you for being apart of this podcast.
Please consider sharing thisepisode with a friend.
And if you haven't done soalready, please hit the
subscribe button and join theconversation on YouTube in the
comments below.
(02:46):
Now to my guest, Dr.
Kim Tan.
Dr.
Kim Tan, thank you for joiningus on Evangelical 360.
Kim Tan (02:55):
Absolute pleasure, Brian.
Brian Stiller (02:57):
Kim, you have a remarkable career and message
for us today.
As a philanthropist, when Ithink of philanthropy, I think
of an organization or a ministrygoing to a foundation, Bill
Gates or whomever, and askingfor a foundation gift to fund a
(03:19):
project or fund an organization.
But you come at philanthropy ina very, very different way.
You have this notion ofsustainable prosperity.
What is your vision?
What's the idea that drivesyour philanthropy?
Kim Tan (03:34):
I think uh, Brian, very simply put, you know, there is
no evidence in history at allthat any country has ever been
transformed through aid andcharity and philanthropy.
They've all been transformedthrough some kind of economic
(03:55):
investments.
Um, and and so what we aredoing basically is looking at a
social or environmental issueand saying instead of doing
charity and doing philanthropy,can we, primarily as business
people, design enterprise-basedsolutions that are more
(04:16):
sustainable, more scalable, andalso I think confers more
dignity on the people on thegrants.
Uh so instead of just kind ofcontinuous grant making where
people are just spending so muchtime just trying to do reports
and apply for more grants, wereally wanted to identify
(04:41):
talented local entrepreneurs andsee if we can give them enough
capital, enough mentorship tohelp them to grow uh and scale
their business and so that theybecome sustainable and create
more jobs.
Brian Stiller (04:56):
Kim, a few years ago, an African writer wrote a
book called Dead Aid, whichdescribed the the gifting
towards various groups.
In in the countries that uh ofthe continent Africa that she
was writing about, she felt thatthat charity became welfare,
(05:19):
which diminished the activitiesof people in living in a
sustainable and economicenvironment.
Is that what you're saying?
Kim Tan (05:28):
I think so.
Um so that was the ambitionmoylo when she was at Goldman
Sachs.
Brian Stiller (05:34):
Yes.
Kim Tan (05:34):
Uh and uh, but maybe we shouldn't throw out the
philanthropy.
There is a key role inphilanthropy, even in what we're
doing, and and we can we cantalk a little about that.
So there is an important rolefor philanthropy and for charity
still, particularly in areasthat are really difficult uh to
(05:56):
find enterprise-based solutions.
Uh, but the reality is, unlesscountries develop economically,
they will not be able to providehealthcare for their people.
They will not be able to buildtheir roads.
So, you know, are are we are wegonna continue looking to
(06:16):
countries to be dependent on youknow Western nations uh for
philanthropy and aid for theireducation, for their healthcare
sector, and for their uhsanitation and and so on.
I I think at the end of theday, what we want to see is
(06:36):
countries and communities thatare economically uh strong
enough to provide forthemselves.
Brian Stiller (06:44):
I want to cycle back and get into those into
those, but I'd like to establishwho you are.
You're a Malaysian, you're abiochemist, now you live in
England as a philanthropist, asan investor.
Give us a thumbnail sketch ofyour life and how you ended up
where you are.
Grew up poor.
Kim Tan (07:03):
Uh parents were immigrants from China into
Malaysia, um, and then came toBritain.
Um I've had I kind of had threecareers, Brian.
You know, the first career hasbeen in science, um, allergy
around cancer of the pancreasand diabetes and stem cells.
And then I bailed out often bythird postdoctor because I
(07:26):
frankly wasn't smart enough uhto be a uh a top-flight stylist,
and then went into a secondcareer in biotech.
I began building a number ofbiotech companies, ended up
running a biotech uh fund.
And then uh on a trip to SouthAfrica for the first time in
(07:47):
Africa, some 25 years ago now, Ijust uh spent half a day in the
largest slum just outside CapeTown and became disillusioned
with my own philanthropy.
I thought I could write anothercheck here, but it wasn't going
to make any difference.
And it wasn't a good use of thetalent and the gifts that God
(08:10):
has given me.
And I had a very strong callingthen to not run a second
biotech fund, but to uh use myexperience in in venture capital
to start building enterprisesuh in South Africa.
And uh there chose the poorestprovince, which was the Eastern
(08:34):
Cape, and ended up building asafari game park uh there.
And and that's the really hasbeen the journey.
And I learned a lot duringthose years that you can, if
you're intentional and if you'renot looking for a single bottom
line return on your investment,you can invest in this kind of
(08:55):
way and uh and grow thesebusinesses to scale.
Brian Stiller (08:59):
What was going on in your mind as you were there
25 years ago, you see thepoverty.
What how did a game part cometo mind?
And what did you have in mindthat you needed to do to
generate this idea, this thisenterprise?
Kim Tan (09:17):
Well, um, it was just data.
Brian, um I I, you know, if Iwas going to fly in and out uh
into South Africa from London, Iwanted to go to the poorest
province.
So I asked, where was thepoorest province?
They all said Eastern Cape.
Secondly, the question was,well, what can you build in the
(09:38):
Eastern Cape, right?
Um, and uh uh what I saw wasclearly that destination number
one for tourists was Cape Town.
Still is, it is a beautifulcity.
Second was Kruger NationalPark, where they went for their
safari experience.
And the third was what iscalled the Garden Route, which
(09:59):
is the um the drive along thecoast, uh, all the way from Cape
Town up to Port Elizabeth.
And at the end of that, therewas just nothing to hold
tourists.
75%, 80% of them just flew outfrom there.
So I decided to sort of buildsomething there, and uh I was
(10:20):
going to do something small, myfaith wasn't that big.
Uh, it was, you know, a countryI didn't know.
And and bear in mind, this wasthe first year after Nelson
Mandela had stepped down.
This was uh Taboe Mbeke's uhfirst year as president, and
everyone was predicting civilwar.
The rent was depreciating bythe week.
(10:43):
It was just a really crazytime.
Long story, I was gonna buildsomething small and thought that
would be my sort of dischargingof this calling.
Uh, but uh the National ParksBoard heard about this crazy
Malaysian in London wanting todo something with land and
animals and called me and said,Look, you know, we run the third
(11:05):
largest national park here inPort Elizabeth.
We want to expand it.
Would you be interested to comeand collaborate with us?
And so, you know, I flew downand they flew down on a plane
from Pretoria, and we flew up ona plane, and they showed me the
whole area.
And right there in the in injust north of the national park
(11:26):
there, uh, I went on the ground,and you know, the district had
85% unemployment.
Brian Stiller (11:34):
Let me ask you one question.
Let me just go back to why didyou want to go to the poorest
place in South Africa?
What was be what was in yourmind to even want that?
Kim Tan (11:44):
Well, I thought if if we're gonna prove this out as a
way of tackling poverty, let'sgo to the poorest part.
The easiest thing would havebeen just to fly into Cape Town
and do something in Cape Town.
Brian Stiller (11:56):
Yeah, but I I still want to know what what was
in your mind, like what wereyou even thinking about when you
said you want to provesomething?
Uh what was what was your whatwas your motivation, what was
your vision that that led youeven to South Africa, to the
poorest place?
What did you have in mind todo?
Kim Tan (12:17):
Oh, the the the reason for South Africa was just
friendship.
Uh we had friends, very goodfriends, uh from my days at
university, and uh we werevisiting them.
So that was the reason there.
And I just fell in love withthe country.
And uh when I had this calling,I just wanted to go to the
poorest part of the country andyou know, see if we could really
(12:42):
do something that can betransformative for the
community.
But what was that calling?
The calling was really to usemy gifts, my resources, my time
to create these kinds ofenterprises that can be
transformative.
You see, Brian, 60 years ago,the GDP of Ghana and Kenya was
(13:02):
higher than the GDP ofSingapore, Malaysia, Taiwan,
Thailand, Hong Kong, right?
And yet Africa has received theequivalent of six Marshall
Plants.
Asia has not had any kind ofaid, uh, or even to this day, no
real philanthropy and certainlyno microfinance.
(13:23):
And yet these countries, thesetiger economies have transformed
themselves really through uhforeigners uh investing in our
countries there, uh and creatingjobs for our people, upskilling
us, and then inspiring ageneration of local
entrepreneurs.
And Africa is not gonna be anydifferent unless we
(13:46):
intentionally go and invest tobuild these kinds of
enterprises.
Uh, nothing much is gonnachange.
So that's the motivation forgoing into uh that part of South
Africa, 85% unemployment.
I, as a philanthropist, bro, Icould have built a school, a
clinic, an orphanage, all thestandard stuff, but nothing was
(14:10):
gonna change.
All right.
So so the vision very much wasto create a large enough
enterprise uh that couldcatalyze change.
And what happened?
Well, over a three and a halfyear period, a lot of drinking
of Reibos tea, uh, we managed tobuy 21 farms, uh 40,000 acres.
(14:36):
Uh we then had to clean it up,lots of internal fences and
windmills and buildings, andthen ripped out all the foreign
vegetation, fenced 75 kilometersof elephant-proof fencing, and
then brought in big game uh intothat part of South Africa for
(14:56):
the first time in 150 years, andthen spent two years building a
luxury lodge with the staffvillage, not knowing several
things.
One, can you reallyrehabilitate degraded land?
Two, will animals like beingtransferred there?
Uh, would they be happy?
Three, would tourists come?
(15:18):
Four, uh, we don't know whetherwe could intentionally hire
local people and upskill them toserve five-star guests.
Those are all the unknowns.
Um, and uh, and that was thatwas part of the part of the
experiment, I guess.
Brian Stiller (15:36):
And what did you find?
Did you were you able to trainindigenous local personnel to to
serve this enterprise?
Kim Tan (15:45):
Yeah, um, you know, but for a hiatus over COVID, um we
are about four four years behindplanned, but the the whole
enterprise is now profitable,pays a dividend.
We employ all, entirely employnow, I think, uh all local
(16:06):
people from our community.
Brian Stiller (16:08):
So what were the what were the hard lessons you
learned from this that areserving you now as you as you
continue into other uh impactinvestments?
I think the first thing isyou've got to have the clear
calling.
Kim Tan (16:22):
I mean this is tough.
This is really tough.
I think then you've got to bepatient, you know, with that
calling.
You will have a lot ofdisappointment, and particularly
disappointment with people whodon't have life skills.
So we have had lots ofdisappointments with people whom
(16:44):
we think uh have the potentialto grow and develop to be
leaders.
Uh, and then something happens,usually drink.
Alcohol is a big problem forus.
Um, and um and drink has reallydestroyed quite a number of
really promising people we'vehad over the years.
(17:04):
So you've got to be patient.
And and and more than anythingelse, I think, Brian, you you've
gotta um you've gotta have theability to create a culture
where everyone can flourish.
You know, we don't come in asdonors, we come in as
shareholders, we come in as um,you know, fellow directors uh
(17:31):
with the with the entrepreneurs.
Uh, and and we want to create aculture where everyone can
flourish.
It's too easy, you know, in thepast to have a donor uh
recipient kind of relationship.
Uh we we think in this kind ofway, we can say to the people
that we're investing with, youknow, look, we're we're
(17:53):
shareholders with you.
Brian Stiller (17:55):
Was the notion of of investment to create a
social impact, was this an ideathat that you learn from
somebody else?
Or did it somehow s come out ofyour christian Christian vision
of service?
Kim Tan (18:11):
I it it just it just kind of it just kind of made
sense.
And having come from SoutheastAsia, seeing the transformation
of the Tiger economies, it wasclear to me, you know, that
there's no other way forlong-term transformation of
countries, um, except throughinvestments.
(18:32):
And particularly investments inthe small, medium-sized
enterprises, right?
In a lot of the emergingeconomies, you have a lot of um
micro enterprises, smallbusinesses, and then you have a
small number of very largemultinationals.
But in between, there are very,very few small, medium-sized
(18:57):
enterprises.
But they are the backbones ofall our developed economies.
Almost, I think, 90% of all thebusinesses registered here in
the UK are all small,medium-sized enterprises.
Enterprises that employ 50people up to you know several
hundred.
Um, they are the backbone ofall our economies.
(19:20):
But in Africa and in emergingcountries, they're absent.
It's what economists call themissing middle.
Brian Stiller (19:29):
How many staff would you have in South Africa?
Kim Tan (19:32):
At the large, uh about 60 permanent, full-time.
And then we have lots of uhcontract workers who come into
specific projects.
Where did that?
So you started there.
Brian Stiller (19:46):
What was your next project?
Kim Tan (19:48):
My next project was uh a low-cost school in the slum,
the largest slum in Nigeria, uhin Kenya called Kibira.
Uh here is a uh a couple whohad sold their educational
publishing business in theUnited States.
Uh, she was a teacher, theywent gallivanting wrong wall,
(20:10):
and she spent some time teachingin China, then got thrown out,
ended up in the Kabira, and theysaw the problems there and
said, look, you know, we we needto come here and fix this.
We got to know them, and uhthere was nothing, no due
diligence needed because therewas nothing to show.
It was just an idea, and theywere willing to move their
(20:32):
family there.
Uh, and we just gave them acheck and said, look, go build a
few schools, do your iteration,change your model, do
whatever's needed.
When you have a few schools, wecan then bring some investors
along and you know, and get itproperly funded.
Um, I mean and and we andbasically we charge $5 per child
(20:55):
per month.
Everything is uh the curriculumis on uh tablets.
Parents pay us by mobile money,uh, we pay teachers and and and
suppliers by mobile money, anduh that way we cut down the back
office cost, and that's why wecan make it affordable at five
dollars roughly uh per child permonth.
(21:18):
And that went from, you know,and and when we made that
investment, Ryan, it was reallytackling the whole problem of
you know the horrible educationstandards.
Uh we we fail our childrengeneration after generation, uh
year after year.
Um so this is our way ofthinking, looking at that
problem, saying, can we use anenterprise-based approach?
(21:41):
Today, that school we investedin was in 2009.
Today, that is is now 10,000schools with 3 million kids in
schools every day, primaryschools in six countries.
So, you know, we we've learnedthat you can, if you're
(22:03):
intentional and you're notlooking for a single bottom line
return, you can invest in thiskind of way and build these
businesses to scale.
Brian Stiller (22:13):
So, using these two examples in South Africa and
Kenya, how much money is neededto invest in these projects?
What's the capital required?
Kim Tan (22:25):
It it all depends.
I mean, you know, when you'rebuying land and building
properties, it's it's a lot ofmoney.
Um, you're talking millions.
And likewise, when we startedthe school, that was, you know,
it wasn't expensive.
It was each school's budget wasabout $40,000, $50,000 for the
school.
But now that it's expanded, uh,you know, we've had to over
(22:50):
several rounds of financingaround.
I would say probably, I don'tknow, $50,000, $60 million have
gone into the schools now toexpand into six countries.
Brian Stiller (23:02):
You bring that at capital investment into the
project, and you expect thatthat project will produce
revenue that's profitable.
If it's not profitable, itdies.
Kim Tan (23:17):
We we can't do it.
So so this is the interestingthing, Brian.
You know, although we callourselves social impact, our
first screen is actuallyfinancial.
Because if it's not profitable,we just become a charity.
Um, so so we need to know howmuch money do you need, over
what period of time, and we ifwe trust the management and we
(23:41):
have can have a role in terms ofstrategy and and guiding the
management, we will then reservethat funding so that these
businesses don't run out ofcash.
Uh and um so yeah, we'retalking, we're talking real
investments.
Brian Stiller (23:57):
And so the your investor expects a reasonable
return.
Correct.
Kim Tan (24:02):
And it all depends on the investor.
We have investors who arefamily offices who say, look,
and this is what we'll say tothem, carry on doing your
philanthropy, right?
There is an important place forphilanthropy.
Carry on doing that.
But maybe do a small allocationand we'll help you do this kind
of investing.
(24:22):
And they would say to us, wecan't take any return, just give
our capital back.
So that's fine, that's great.
We have others, smallershareholders who say, you know,
my bond rates, well, 10 yearsago, bond rates were at 0.5%.
You know, so if you can give me2% plus the social impact, I'm
(24:44):
happy.
Uh, but now with our morestructured funds, so over the
over the last 20 years, we'vebeen challenging people to leave
their day jobs, running techVCs and PE funds to now run
these social impact funds.
And now our main shareholdersare the sovereign wealth funds,
uh, the North funds of thisworld, the BII here in the UK
(25:07):
and the FMOs.
Um, and they are looking for areturn.
So we we we are now in the uharea where we're having to
provide much higher rates ofreturn than, say, the family
offices and and privateindividuals require.
Brian Stiller (25:25):
Uh let's bring this down to an average donor,
maybe a significant donor.
So all their life, they havethey have operated on the basis
of I'll make my investment andget my return on this side, and
on this side, I will be, I'llrun my own charity, I'll run my
(25:46):
own donation portfolios, and Iwill give money to various
ministries or to NGOs that aredoing good.
So you have those two pockets.
What do you suggest to peopleto think about as they look at
their own resources and how theyhandle the resources as it
(26:07):
relates to the well-being ofothers?
Kim Tan (26:09):
I think carry on with your your the two pockets, but
maybe on the philanthropicpocket to do an allocation uh if
they want to see sustainable uhenterprises on the ground.
If they're just happy to keepgiving out grants to these
(26:31):
projects year after year afteryear, then fine, carry on doing
that.
But if they want to see realchange so that people become
independent, so they don't haveto come and ask for another
grant in three years' time, thenmaybe think about doing some
kind of investing in this kindof way, where you're you're not
(26:53):
looking just for a singleborder-line return.
You're looking for a socialimpact, you're looking for an
environmental return.
Um and and this is the messagewe've given to family officers
and philanthropists.
You know, there are areas thatare really tough to do uh using
an enterprise approach.
You know, education is one ofthem, health is the other one,
(27:17):
you know, but long-term, Brian,do we want to carry on providing
this kind of charity just foreducation and health?
Or do we want these countriesto become stronger so that they
can then provide our own uhcitizens uh for health care and
education?
Brian Stiller (27:38):
Very good question.
What comes to mind is thinkingof a donor, within our
evangelical community, often ourdonations are towards those
kind of ministries thatspecialize in evangelism or
discipleship, the reaching ofthe world with the message of
Christ.
Now, that seems to be adifferent objective than the
(28:02):
social impact that you aredescribing.
Those are two different arrows,if you like.
Kim Tan (28:10):
Probably two sides of a coin, I would say.
Um, you know, the gospel needsto be in word and deed.
Can't just be in word only.
Um, you know, show me love.
How do we love our neighbor?
Right?
And don't be surprised.
And what this is what surprisesus again and again when we do
(28:34):
this, people ask you, why areyou doing this?
You know, and what betteropening would you have to share
your faith, to share why you'redoing this, the motivation, you
know.
Why are you coming into this85% unemployment place?
Why are you coming to Islam tobuild toilets, you know, so that
(28:55):
we can use uh have have cleantoilets and proper sanitation?
Why are you doing this?
Well, because we we have a Godwho is compassionate towards the
poor, we have a God who callsus to um preach good news to the
poor, to set the captives free,um to release the oppressed
(29:20):
from oppression, so that theblind might see.
So and that might hear the yearof the Lord's favor, the
Jubilee year.
So those those are greatopportunities for us.
We we cannot disclose ordescribe the kinds of
(29:43):
opportunities that open up forus uh with the gospel because we
work in sensitive countries.
Brian Stiller (29:53):
Have we and I'm speaking here of evangelical
community, which is a largecommunity globally, one quarter
of the world's.
Christians, have we been caughtin a tension between the
capitalist initiative whichyou've been describing as being
(30:14):
somehow antithetical to thegenerous heart of a Christian?
Do we see those two as separateseparate sides or separate
visions of life?
Kim Tan (30:26):
I think we evangelicals have a kind of schizophrenic
view and attitude towardscapitalism.
You know, I think on the onehand, I mean, many, many
evangelicals uh are verycapitalistic in their outlook,
right?
And now on the other hand, weare afraid of profit.
We're afraid of making money.
(30:48):
You know, so we've been accusedof making money, you know, from
the poor.
Uh well, you know, in in oureducation, right?
And and and when I first sawthe data, uh, Brian, that
private schools in the slumsperform better than government
schools, I just reacted.
I thought, how can you chargethe poor for for education?
(31:10):
It should be free, right?
I mean, and I've been abeneficiary of free education,
courtesy of the generosity ofthe British government.
You know, they've given mescholarships after scholarship
and fellowships, uh and evengiven me a free grant to start
my first biotech company.
So how can you charge the poorfor education?
(31:32):
But you know, the interestingthing is the psychology.
When it's free, it's notvalued.
When you run courses free,people will come for the first
week and the second week, and bythe third week, they all drop
out.
When it's free, parents don'tfeel they can insist on better
(31:53):
standards for their children.
But when it's $5 roughly perchild per month, this is now an
investment because it could beabout 25-30% of the average
monthly wage.
Now they're turning up at thehead teacher's office and
saying, Why isn't my daughterperforming better?
(32:13):
And because also it's now theysee it as an investment, they
take more interest in theirchildren's homework.
And we all know, you know, ifparents are engaged with their
children's education, the kidsare gonna perform a lot better.
So, you know, we have this kindof um schizophrenic um
(32:39):
relationship with withcapitalism.
But without capital, countriesare not gonna change.
Uh and and this is the thereally the big, big need for all
these countries and and theentrepreneurs' uh access to
patient capital.
Brian Stiller (32:58):
Globally, there's a variety of initiatives like
Opportunity International, whichis a micro lending.
Is that the kind of uh uhsocial impact they that you
think is needed?
Yes.
Kim Tan (33:12):
Um I I think um there is uh uh still a place for for
microcredit and microfinanceinstitutions.
Uh I describe it as the fastestway to lift people out of
abject poverty into normalpoverty.
What is the next stage then?
(33:32):
Right?
And that's where that missingwill, that's where the small,
medium-sized enterprise comesin.
In many countries, it's veryeasy to borrow $100, even $1,000
through microfinance.
But try borrowing $50,000 tohalf a million dollars to scale
your business.
(33:53):
Uh in Kenya, the uh interestrate is 18% for top-tier
companies, businesses.
If you're not even in the toptier, not in first tier, it's
28% interest rates per year.
You can't you can't buildbusinesses that way.
Brian Stiller (34:12):
Your own personal life seems to be shaped by a
particular Christian worldview.
Uh, was that something that youwere raised with in your
family, or was this somethingthat has come to you uh as a
scholar and and as an investor?
Kim Tan (34:28):
Uh so there was no Christianity in and in our in
our family at all.
And if anything, um there wasuh a real antagonism.
And um I became I reluctantlybecame Christian just prior to
university through the help ofthe likes of C.
S.
Lewis and Francis Schaeffer umhelping me to think through uh
(34:54):
some of the problems and andquestions I had in my own mind.
Um but in terms of of my ownunderstanding, yeah, it's it's
it's it's really learned.
Um and primarily, I suppose,the overarching kind of guide
(35:16):
for me uh is the kingdom of God.
That was Jesus' own singularfocus, and and you know that's
that's my been my focus too.
Kingdom where there isrighteousness and and the word
righteousness is exactly thesame word, decay was in Greek
(35:39):
for the word justice.
Seek ye first the kingdom ofGod and his justice.
Uh and the whole Tiboli thingis about freedom and justice.
Uh that there should be no pooramong us in this kingdom.
So, so oh the uh big kind ofNorth Star for me uh is always
(36:04):
has always been the kingdom.
Brian Stiller (36:05):
And how does the kingdom work as it relates to
your investment?
Kim Tan (36:11):
I see the kingdom certainly in a number of
different um with a number ofdifferent features.
I think first of all, thekingdom for me is incarnational.
Right.
It's great to be able to sendmoney to a foreign country, to
an agency, to uh to you knowsomewhere uh an angel working in
(36:34):
the inner city, but it'snothing like turning up on the
ground, feet on the ground, andserving there.
When you have money, theeasiest thing to do in the world
is just write checks and givemoney.
It's very hard to give ourtime, and and I keep being
reminded again and again, ourLord gave us his time.
(36:59):
His time.
So that's one.
I think the other thing for mein terms of the kingdoms, it's
it's sacrificial.
If there's anything we want towe anything we learn from the
(37:22):
cross is that it's sacrificial.
And therefore, for me, wherethere is no sacrifice, there is
no eternal value.
You know, I can give a hundredthousand dollars to charity or
to uh a mission, but if I in myasset have a hundred million,
(37:50):
that's not a sacrifice.
That's not a sacrifice.
So the kingdom is aboutsacrifice.
The kingdom, I think, also isabout um transformation.
Everywhere Jesus went, thingschanged, things happen.
(38:11):
All right, people got fed.
Um and there was healing, uh,there was restoration.
Relationships were restored,broken lives were restored, the
woman at the well, the womanwith the alabaster vase, um,
there was restorationrelationships of broken lives
(38:34):
pieced together.
That's that's kingdomeverywhere we go.
That should be happening.
So when I see ex-offenderscoming out of prison in
Singapore from our call centerthere, and they come out and
they have lives restored, andtheir relationship with their
families restored, and thenthey're working for us now in
(38:54):
the call center of the city.
They now have a job, they havetheir dignity and something of
the image of God restored inthem.
That's that for me is akingdom.
That's that's what we that'swhat we're about.
Um so it's it's it's abouthuman flourishing.
The kingdom, wherever Jesuswent, there was flourishing,
(39:15):
immense flourishing all aroundhim, right?
And and and that to me is is iswhat the kingdom should be
about.
The the Jewish um uhtheologians have a have have a
really nice phrase, Brian, whichwe love.
It's called tikkunulam, whichtranslated means um repairing
(39:36):
the world in a state ofdisrepair.
And that's the calling, right?
It's really what Colossians andEphesians talk about, the
summing of all things,restoration, all things, uh into
Christ.
Um, and they they describe itas tikkunolam.
The kingdom is abouttikkunolam.
(39:57):
We're out there as agents torepair this world that is that
is broken in so many differentways.
Um, and and so those for me uhare sort of the sort of kingdom
features uh that that I live by.
Brian Stiller (40:14):
Dr.
Kim Tan, thank you so much forjoining us today on Evangelical
360.
That's a wonderful way toconclude this first interview
that we have with you, andthanks for joining us today.
Kim Tan (40:27):
It's my pleasure, Brian.
All the best.
Brian Stiller (40:31):
And many people will be surprised at your ideas,
but you have used them totransform lives, communities,
and industries.
And thank you to our faithfulfor being a part of the podcast.
Be sure to like this episodeand subscribe wherever you watch
or listen to this podcast.
(40:51):
And if you'd like to learn moreabout today's guest, you can
check the show notes for linksand info.
And if you haven't alreadyreceived my free ebook and
newsletter, just go toBrianStiller.com.
Thanks again.
Until next time.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Burden
The Burden is a documentary series that takes listeners into the hidden places where justice is done (and undone). It dives deep into the lives of heroes and villains. And it focuses a spotlight on those who triumph even when the odds are against them. Season 5 - The Burden: Death & Deceit in Alliance On April Fools Day 1999, 26-year-old Yvonne Layne was found murdered in her Alliance, Ohio home. David Thorne, her ex-boyfriend and father of one of her children, was instantly a suspect. Another young man admitted to the murder, and David breathed a sigh of relief, until the confessed murderer fingered David; “He paid me to do it.” David was sentenced to life without parole. Two decades later, Pulitzer winner and podcast host, Maggie Freleng (Bone Valley Season 3: Graves County, Wrongful Conviction, Suave) launched a “live” investigation into David's conviction alongside Jason Baldwin (himself wrongfully convicted as a member of the West Memphis Three). Maggie had come to believe that the entire investigation of David was botched by the tiny local police department, or worse, covered up the real killer. Was Maggie correct? Was David’s claim of innocence credible? In Death and Deceit in Alliance, Maggie recounts the case that launched her career, and ultimately, “broke” her.” The results will shock the listener and reduce Maggie to tears and self-doubt. This is not your typical wrongful conviction story. In fact, it turns the genre on its head. It asks the question: What if our champions are foolish? Season 4 - The Burden: Get the Money and Run “Trying to murder my father, this was the thing that put me on the path.” That’s Joe Loya and that path was bank robbery. Bank, bank, bank, bank, bank. In season 4 of The Burden: Get the Money and Run, we hear from Joe who was once the most prolific bank robber in Southern California, and beyond. He used disguises, body doubles, proxies. He leaped over counters, grabbed the money and ran. Even as the FBI was closing in. It was a showdown between a daring bank robber, and a patient FBI agent. Joe was no ordinary bank robber. He was bright, articulate, charismatic, and driven by a dark rage that he summoned up at will. In seven episodes, Joe tells all: the what, the how… and the why. Including why he tried to murder his father. Season 3 - The Burden: Avenger Miriam Lewin is one of Argentina’s leading journalists today. At 19 years old, she was kidnapped off the streets of Buenos Aires for her political activism and thrown into a concentration camp. Thousands of her fellow inmates were executed, tossed alive from a cargo plane into the ocean. Miriam, along with a handful of others, will survive the camp. Then as a journalist, she will wage a decades long campaign to bring her tormentors to justice. Avenger is about one woman’s triumphant battle against unbelievable odds to survive torture, claim justice for the crimes done against her and others like her, and change the future of her country. Season 2 - The Burden: Empire on Blood Empire on Blood is set in the Bronx, NY, in the early 90s, when two young drug dealers ruled an intersection known as “The Corner on Blood.” The boss, Calvin Buari, lived large. He and a protege swore they would build an empire on blood. Then the relationship frayed and the protege accused Calvin of a double homicide which he claimed he didn’t do. But did he? Award-winning journalist Steve Fishman spent seven years to answer that question. This is the story of one man’s last chance to overturn his life sentence. He may prevail, but someone’s gotta pay. The Burden: Empire on Blood is the director’s cut of the true crime classic which reached #1 on the charts when it was first released half a dozen years ago. Season 1 - The Burden In the 1990s, Detective Louis N. Scarcella was legendary. In a city overrun by violent crime, he cracked the toughest cases and put away the worst criminals. “The Hulk” was his nickname. Then the story changed. Scarcella ran into a group of convicted murderers who all say they are innocent. They turned themselves into jailhouse-lawyers and in prison founded a lway firm. When they realized Scarcella helped put many of them away, they set their sights on taking him down. And with the help of a NY Times reporter they have a chance. For years, Scarcella insisted he did nothing wrong. But that’s all he’d say. Until we tracked Scarcella to a sauna in a Russian bathhouse, where he started to talk..and talk and talk. “The guilty have gone free,” he whispered. And then agreed to take us into the belly of the beast. Welcome to The Burden.