June 3, 2024 • 23 mins
This episode tackles the complex issue of compounded grief. Don and Katie Cash share their story for the first time publicly. Don's daughter, Caitlin, found her friend professional cyclist, Moriah “Mo” Wilson, murdered in her apartment. This event, covered by Dateline NBC, brought a wave of grief not only for Mo's family but also for Don and Katie, highlighting the ripple effect of such tragedies. We explore how Don and Katie navigate their own grief while supporting Caitlin through this unimaginable loss.
www.moriahwilsonfoundation.org
This episode is brought to you by Roger Brooks and his team at Strategic Investment Management. As an Austin-based fiduciary financial advisory firm, Roger and his team bring decades of experience and empathy to help people regain financial control through life's ups and downs so you can move forward with confidence. www.strategicim.com.
512-341-9898
This episode is also brought to you by spiritpieces.com/everywidowthing
Remember your loved one through cremation art!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
In this week's episode, we continue our conversation with
Don Cash. If you haven't heard episode 36
and 37, I highly suggest you go back and get to know Don and
Katie. Today's topic is compounded
grief. Don and Katie Cash open up for
the very first time about how Don's daughter Caitlin Cash
(00:20):
found her friend, professional cyclist Mariah MO Wilson,
murdered in her apartment. We are here to discuss with Don
and Katie how a family survives another great tragedy.
Grief is messy and I'm no maid. This is every widow thing.
Today's episode is brought to you by Roger Brooks and his team
(00:43):
at Strategic Investment Management.
As an Austin based fiduciary financial advisory firm, Roger
and his team bring decades of experience and empathy to help
people regain financial control through life's ups and downs so
you can move forward with confidence.
This episode is brought to you in part by spiritpieces.com.
(01:06):
Beautiful cremation jewelry and glass art pieces for people and
pets. You can find their information
on the Every Widow Thing Instagram highlight Reel.
We have guests today, Don and Katie Cash.
We wanted to do an episode on compounded grief and I saw Don
at the pool party and I was super excited to see him because
it's been forever. I was trying to get Rider into
(01:26):
college, you know, I've been so busy for so long and I saw him
and I was like, Oh my God, he looks terrible.
I know Don, as you can tell he'sfun, funny and light hearted and
always is joking around and he was not.
Don's daughter Caitlin, on May 11th, 2022, discovered her
(01:48):
friend, the professional gravel mountain bike racer Anna Mariah,
now called MO Wilson, was fatally shot by another person
named Caitlin Marie Armstrong inCaitlin's apartment.
And Caitlin discovered her murdered on her bathroom floor.
And I'm sure a lot of our listeners have seen it on
(02:10):
Dateline. There's been two episodes, and
those were real recent. I think Nancy Grace covered it
as well. Yeah, everybody.
So it's been a super public tragedy, and we were all talking
about it. We first want to be mindful of
MO Wilson's family, that they'renot only grieving the murder of
(02:32):
their daughter, they're also having to do this publicly.
And, you know, everybody's hounding them, I'm sure for
interviews and and Caitlin as well.
Caitlin's having to exist, living with what she saw.
But we first want to say for ourshow, because we're all about
grief and trying to learn to survive and thrive, but we want
(02:54):
to be respectful of MO Wilson's family and Caitlin because this
is a terrible thing to go through.
So we're not going to go into the details of of that day, that
horrific day. What we want to talk about here
is, is talk about like, what didyou do after that fateful day?
And like what were some helpful things?
What were some things that weren't helpful for your
(03:15):
daughter? Because I think we talked about
EMDR and things like that. So if you'll just kind of tell
us like what happened after the fact and what helped and did.
Talk with Mariah's parents, Ericand Karen recently and asked
them about the podcast and they are yes, we want to keep Mariah,
(03:38):
her memory alive and talking about her is a way of doing that
so and I've also talked to my daughter Caitlin and asked her
about this and she said yes, that would be awesome so.
I think that's pretty kind of them to allow you because it
affected you too. And so it's kind of them to
(03:59):
allow you to have this, this. This, these things, they have a
ripple effect and the ripple is massive.
It's, it's just so massive. And part of me thinks having
gone through what I did with Elaine and and Caitlin said the
same thing, going through this with her mom helped prepare us
(04:24):
for this situation. I felt the same emotions.
And this is not something, you know, it it, like I said, it's a
ripple effect. It didn't happen to me.
It wasn't my daughter. It could have been my daughter
if things had been different. But.
(04:52):
It's OK, that's hard to think about.
Take a beat, we will be right back.
Imagine a financial partner who meets you exactly where you are,
acknowledging your grief and taking the time to listen,
empathize, and truly understand what matters to you.
Strategic investment management can help you plan a course that
honors your past while embracingyour future.
(05:13):
Whether you're worried about taximplications, paying off debt or
stewarding your asset distributions, Rodgers Team can
make a plan that's aligned with your family's needs and goals.
For more information, visit www.strategicim.com or give them
a call at 512-341-9898. Again, that's 512-341-9898.
(05:41):
Tell them you heard about them on every widow thing.
All right, well, we recently hada podcast about our husband's
ashes. Sadly, Kira still can't get into
the box. Can you?
We. Have to get in the box I'm
working on I'm. Working on the box, the whole
point is you want to be able to do something with those ashes.
I came across a great website, itscalledspiritpieces.com, and
(06:02):
what I love about it is that they give you a variety of
options. It's jewelry, it's glass art,
it's statues. You can do a ton of stuff with
Ashes and we all have quite a few.
There's a lot in the box, yeah. There is a lot in the box.
I like the paperweight idea. Doesn't spiritpieces.com have
(06:23):
paperweight? Yes, and you know what's so
great? And there's one that I'm
actually going to order. It's this heart paperweight and
it's beautiful. But what I love about the glass
art is that they have like hanging pieces and stuff and
when the light hits it, it feelsvery heavenly.
That's so pretty, I know. So if you're interested, if this
is something that you would likefor your own loved one,
(06:44):
spiritpieces.com/every Widow thing so they know that you
heard about it through us, is a great option for for you and for
your loved one. We hope you check it out.
And now, back to the show. Seeing my daughter in this
situation and it, it just brought back so much the same
(07:08):
feeling of loss and numbness andnot knowing where to do where to
go next or what to do next or being able to make any sense out
of it. And I felt, I mean, for so long,
(07:30):
probably till after the trial, alot of the same emotions that I
felt when I lost my wife. And it just, it crushed me.
And again, I'm sort of, I'm on the ripple of it, you know?
So did you know MO before this? She was.
(07:54):
Friends with Caitlin, I had never.
Met her I, my mother was the, the, the one chance I was
probably going to have the meterwas going up to Vermont to visit
her family for at Christmas and Katie and I couldn't go because
my mother was in the last couplemonths of her life.
So Anna went up and and and and and met her and met the family.
(08:18):
And so she and Caitlin were super close.
Yes, they had only known each other six months, but I mean
boom, an instant friendship justso.
She was in town and was staying at the.
She was in town and staying at Caitlin's for.
There was a race that was going on.
Right in Texas, a big bike ride and she was well known.
(08:38):
One of the top up and coming, ormaybe the top rider in this
gravel thing staying with Caitlin.
Went out with a guy she knew. Anyways, it it.
Yeah, they get murdered. Caitlin comes home, finds her.
You know, the the police call me.
This is 9:30 at night. The police call me at 11.
(08:58):
I go over, you know, Caitlin still got blood on her.
I at the Police Department, I call Katie.
Katie came home from an out of town trip the next morning.
I called Anna. Anna came over that morning.
Caitlin stayed at the house and it's just, you know, it's just
everything you had to go through, going to the apartment
the next day to do some things and work with the police and
(09:19):
clean up and everything that yougo through this up and down of
it, just it was a lot of the same things.
And I just felt for a really long time I didn't know what to
do. I didn't know where to go next.
I couldn't get my head above water.
Started some therapy again. Yeah, you're watching your and
(09:41):
this is what we all went throughwhen our spouses died.
You're watching your child go through a pain that you can't
fix. You can't have her Unsee what
she saw. You can't take away any of that.
And it is just heart wrenching as a parent to have to watch it.
(10:05):
Call you or did she call you were called contact by the
police. Yeah, she called 911 and
amazingly spent 10 minutes on the on the phone, on the 911
call doing ACPR for someone who's already dead.
Good for her. Wow.
Yeah, Strong. She must be.
(10:26):
Amazing. She's she's strong.
So you go. You said you went back to
therapy, but was that after the trial or like how were you
coping? Because the trial was November
of last year, right? November of 2023.
Yeah. So the trial's pretty recent.
It's pretty recent. When did I start Before Before.
(10:47):
Yeah, we talked about it and. And it's like, I just can't
she's well, maybe maybe some therapy would be good.
And so I started doing that. And which eventually is that OK
to say evolved into some couplestherapy because you know.
She hadn't been with you when you dealt with your first grief,
(11:10):
and now she's having to be a part of this compounded grief.
And she you're grieving too, because you love Caitlin and
you're seeing Caitlin go throughthis.
I would imagine it would be verystressful on a marriage.
Well, I mean, you add the fact that it was such a horrific
tragedy and, and, and nonsensical.
I mean, you know what I mean. It's not like most people ever
(11:31):
have to deal with something so public.
And here you are splashed all over the news.
I can't, I really can't imagine it.
And so I would imagine any marriage would would be
challenged. Was Caitlin living?
I would assume that she was. Didn't want to stay in that
apartment at the time so. You would be wrong.
So she stayed in the. She lives.
(11:53):
She's still in that apartment day because she can't afford to
buy a house in Austin. And two, she says.
I feel Mariah's presence. Here, of course, I love that I
just got. Chills.
So sweet. So she wasn't living with you.
I would think that would also bea stressful thing if but.
Did she spend a period of time at your house?
I don't know why I recall you saying that or but not.
(12:15):
A month. But a month?
OK, maybe. Yeah.
And she she stayed with some friends during that time off and
on. But yeah.
I would imagine you, you, they it was a crime scene, so she had
to stay away for a while, right?Well they keep you out of like a
2 days. Oh, OK.
So you're having this these all these emotions coming back,
(12:36):
which is what we wanted to address in terms of like, when
you've gone through something like with Elaine and then
something else happens and there's some backsliding that
can happen like you were saying,and you're so smart to recognize
and say, got to get back into therapy, got to nip this in the
bud and. Well, it took.
A while. It took a while and, and, and
(12:57):
Elaine was, I mean, Kate, Katie was like, OK, maybe maybe you
should be doing this. And then it's maybe we should be
doing this together. Well, I've had a question.
Didn't you tell me, Don, that you're in school to be a?
Therapist I am. So when did that come about?
Like was it before this tragedy or after?
(13:19):
Or after actually. Is that what precipitated you to
do that? One of the things, yeah, because
I it just, it really struck me about how precious life is.
And I was looking ahead and thinking, OK, what, what kind of
legacy do I want to leave? And I'll be working for another,
you know, 15 years or more. And I, I thought this is a good
(13:42):
time to start something new. And it had been in the back of
my mind a few times to, to mental health counseling is what
I'm studying. So but these events recently and
I thought no, I'm going to do this.
Actually, to the people who cometo see you as clients, I hope
you've been through some stuff. What?
(14:02):
Were you noticing that was happening to Don and and your
relationship and this and. You know, I, I just noticed a,
noticed a change in Don, you know, being kind of impatient
and, and very easily frustrated and angered and about things
(14:29):
that normally wouldn't bother him, you know, and, and then
also worries that he had talked about, you know, that I thought,
oh, it would maybe a good idea to talk to somebody, you know,
'cause this is such a such a situation that many of us
wouldn't have have happened before.
So I thought that would be good to help process that.
(14:52):
And but, yeah, I mean, it was really just kind of seeing him
kind of lost and, you know, his he had retired and then these
things happened, you know, caring for his mom and and then
this and so, you know. Going through that's a lot.
I remember thinking because I had some nothing like what you
(15:15):
were dealing with, but I had some hardships come up after my
husband died and I was like thisis so fucking unfair and I can
imagine for you thinking this child has been through enough
and now. This yes.
I would imagine that anger wouldcome back hard.
Yeah, because Caitlin was young when her mom died, and then she
(15:37):
has to experience this and she'sstill young.
Well, I'm 68 and I still want totake care of my kids.
Yeah, I still want to protect them.
And boy, you can't. Well, did you tell me a little
bit about EMDR? Because I actually did call that
person. I would love for her to be on
the show. She hasn't agreed to it yet, but
she but she's so busy, which is good.
(15:58):
That means she's really good. Well, apparently.
There's shortages of plumbers and therapists well.
Good we're. Going back to work, but she
specializes in EMDR and I talkedto her yesterday and you so can
you tell us a little? Bit about that, Katie was
explaining to me some of how that works this morning because
I don't know. All I know is, is that Caitlin,
(16:19):
she was working at a tech company here in addition to her
milk tea business. And surprisingly, the large tech
company gave her six months off.And then I think they might have
actually paid her for that. I'm not sure.
They were very, very supportive at that at that point in time.
(16:43):
And so, yeah, I'm, I'm calling around, you know, my job is to
call around and find therapist for, you know, in, in the next
month. And she did some.
But the one thing that came up that people would talk about was
the EMDR. Works like a charm.
And so my understanding from heris that she she wanted to do
(17:06):
that wait till after the trial was over.
And so she is working with a therapist and I've asked her
about it a few times and apparently it is unbelievably
intense and unbelievably hard todo and painful.
And she feels like she's making great progress and really likes
(17:26):
the therapist. And so she's.
Amazing. That's super encouraging.
And that was like, you have to be on the show.
You have to be able to come and,and show people just, and she
said, oh, it's a short amount oftime, four or five times you'll
come. And she's doing it online, which
I thought was crazy because I thought you had to be in person.
And she said, no, I, she had clients in Costa Rica.
(17:48):
She has them all over the world.And she's able to do this
therapy. She said usually five or six.
She had been in a car accident. I thought about you two.
She had been in a car accident at like age 25 and did EMDR and
that's what cured her so Katie, Katie explained.
The fact. That our listeners what?
Everybody knows what EMDR. Is yeah, that's a good, good
(18:08):
question. OK, I'll.
I'll, I'll try to, yeah. I just know, I only know just a
little bit about it. But so EMDR is a way that a
therapist can speak to part of the client's brain by motion
(18:30):
activating the left and right sides of the brain while the
client is remembering some of the experience.
Maybe not the whole thing or theworst parts, but the client is,
is thinking about the experienceand the therapist is guiding
them through and that is speaking to part of their brain
(18:51):
that is telling the body it's soyou're safe right now.
And so the practice of that discharges some of the physical
response so that then the the person, the client can not be so
activated by memories of the trauma.
And get these like buzzers in your hand that you get that some
(19:15):
of them, some of them do that. You put buzzers 'cause I did it.
And it works. Yeah, there's different ways
they. Do that.
So it's amazing that they can take you through this traumatic
experience over and over and over, and by the time you're
done, you're like, whatever. I just can't even.
Carry, the hardest part is you are 'cause I did it also for
when I was immediately after thecar accident, I was trapped in
(19:37):
the vehicle. And if you are reliving those
moments, like if Caitlin was reliving those moments when she
discovered her friend, you physically relive when you think
of it and there are, you know, there's stressors on the body
and you're always like going through this trauma again.
And so it's supposed to kind of,like you said, sort of divert
(20:00):
the brain and the body from eachother so that you can talk about
it. I mean, I went through and I
still can't explain it, but I was doing things like looking at
colors and lights while repeating over and over and
over. But that is a very hard.
To have to and he would just sayagain, again, again and I'd have
(20:20):
to talk about it again. But now when I talk about parts
of the accident, it's almost like I'm detached.
So it really does work, and really is quite apparently.
Moves it from the frontal cortexto the back so you're not in
fight or flight mode all the time, but.
Well, I think, I think you know,since since you got me in here,
(20:40):
since I'm a guy and a widower and all you ladies come have one
perspective and I have another is, you know, OK, males, men,
don't be afraid to go talk to somebody.
OK. It took Me 2 1/2 years and then
it took Katie kind of prodding me again this time.
(21:03):
But these things have actually helped me, you know?
And I wouldn't have done that. I would have said a bartender
friend, don't be afraid to do it.
It doesn't make you a weenie. You know, we need help and you
know, you got your friends that help, your spouse that helps,
your kids that help and you know, go give somebody 160 bucks
(21:26):
an hour and get some help or go to the thing, you know, the the
group thing. Go, go.
Whatever. Whatever, it's right in the
show. What do you guys think?
I. Appreciate you saying that we.
Really do because you can speak to an audience.
We can't they. I think that if you want to live
a healthy life, therapy, EMDR, those grief groups, those are
(21:48):
the best ways that we've found to help us.
And you can always spot the people that have not considered
it. Oh.
Then you find friends of mine and that are like, oh.
And Caitlin says some of her friends do couple stuff.
Just they're doing, they're doing great.
But it's like it never hurts to go and.
Well, what we all know is if youdon't address it, that doesn't
mean it goes away. It's going to bubble up and and
(22:13):
especially with compound grief, if you did the work the first
time, it makes these other losses that happen a little bit
more manageable. It does.
So thank you guys. We.
Really appreciate you guys coming today because your
vulnerability will help so many people.
We know this is a tough day for you because when we went through
(22:34):
our own individual stories, I don't know about that, I think
they said the same thing. It took a couple of days.
I had to kind of decompress and and so we appreciate it, but
you're helping a lot of people. Just know that the good that
comes from it is that, so we appreciate you being here today.
And you both so much. We want all of you listeners out
(22:55):
there to follow us on every widow thing, Instagram, Facebook
and please like us and subscribeto YouTube Every widow thing.
Bye.
In this week's episode, we continue our conversation with
Don Cash. If you haven't heard episode 36
and 37, I highly suggest you go back and get to know Don and
Katie. Today's topic is compounded
grief. Don and Katie Cash open up for
the very first time about how Don's daughter Caitlin Cash
(00:20):
found her friend, professional cyclist Mariah MO Wilson,
murdered in her apartment. We are here to discuss with Don
and Katie how a family survives another great tragedy.
Grief is messy and I'm no maid. This is every widow thing.
Today's episode is brought to you by Roger Brooks and his team
(00:43):
at Strategic Investment Management.
As an Austin based fiduciary financial advisory firm, Roger
and his team bring decades of experience and empathy to help
people regain financial control through life's ups and downs so
you can move forward with confidence.
This episode is brought to you in part by spiritpieces.com.
(01:06):
Beautiful cremation jewelry and glass art pieces for people and
pets. You can find their information
on the Every Widow Thing Instagram highlight Reel.
We have guests today, Don and Katie Cash.
We wanted to do an episode on compounded grief and I saw Don
at the pool party and I was super excited to see him because
it's been forever. I was trying to get Rider into
(01:26):
college, you know, I've been so busy for so long and I saw him
and I was like, Oh my God, he looks terrible.
I know Don, as you can tell he'sfun, funny and light hearted and
always is joking around and he was not.
Don's daughter Caitlin, on May 11th, 2022, discovered her
(01:48):
friend, the professional gravel mountain bike racer Anna Mariah,
now called MO Wilson, was fatally shot by another person
named Caitlin Marie Armstrong inCaitlin's apartment.
And Caitlin discovered her murdered on her bathroom floor.
And I'm sure a lot of our listeners have seen it on
(02:10):
Dateline. There's been two episodes, and
those were real recent. I think Nancy Grace covered it
as well. Yeah, everybody.
So it's been a super public tragedy, and we were all talking
about it. We first want to be mindful of
MO Wilson's family, that they'renot only grieving the murder of
(02:32):
their daughter, they're also having to do this publicly.
And, you know, everybody's hounding them, I'm sure for
interviews and and Caitlin as well.
Caitlin's having to exist, living with what she saw.
But we first want to say for ourshow, because we're all about
grief and trying to learn to survive and thrive, but we want
(02:54):
to be respectful of MO Wilson's family and Caitlin because this
is a terrible thing to go through.
So we're not going to go into the details of of that day, that
horrific day. What we want to talk about here
is, is talk about like, what didyou do after that fateful day?
And like what were some helpful things?
What were some things that weren't helpful for your
(03:15):
daughter? Because I think we talked about
EMDR and things like that. So if you'll just kind of tell
us like what happened after the fact and what helped and did.
Talk with Mariah's parents, Ericand Karen recently and asked
them about the podcast and they are yes, we want to keep Mariah,
(03:38):
her memory alive and talking about her is a way of doing that
so and I've also talked to my daughter Caitlin and asked her
about this and she said yes, that would be awesome so.
I think that's pretty kind of them to allow you because it
affected you too. And so it's kind of them to
(03:59):
allow you to have this, this. This, these things, they have a
ripple effect and the ripple is massive.
It's, it's just so massive. And part of me thinks having
gone through what I did with Elaine and and Caitlin said the
same thing, going through this with her mom helped prepare us
(04:24):
for this situation. I felt the same emotions.
And this is not something, you know, it it, like I said, it's a
ripple effect. It didn't happen to me.
It wasn't my daughter. It could have been my daughter
if things had been different. But.
(04:52):
It's OK, that's hard to think about.
Take a beat, we will be right back.
Imagine a financial partner who meets you exactly where you are,
acknowledging your grief and taking the time to listen,
empathize, and truly understand what matters to you.
Strategic investment management can help you plan a course that
honors your past while embracingyour future.
(05:13):
Whether you're worried about taximplications, paying off debt or
stewarding your asset distributions, Rodgers Team can
make a plan that's aligned with your family's needs and goals.
For more information, visit www.strategicim.com or give them
a call at 512-341-9898. Again, that's 512-341-9898.
(05:41):
Tell them you heard about them on every widow thing.
All right, well, we recently hada podcast about our husband's
ashes. Sadly, Kira still can't get into
the box. Can you?
We. Have to get in the box I'm
working on I'm. Working on the box, the whole
point is you want to be able to do something with those ashes.
I came across a great website, itscalledspiritpieces.com, and
(06:02):
what I love about it is that they give you a variety of
options. It's jewelry, it's glass art,
it's statues. You can do a ton of stuff with
Ashes and we all have quite a few.
There's a lot in the box, yeah. There is a lot in the box.
I like the paperweight idea. Doesn't spiritpieces.com have
(06:23):
paperweight? Yes, and you know what's so
great? And there's one that I'm
actually going to order. It's this heart paperweight and
it's beautiful. But what I love about the glass
art is that they have like hanging pieces and stuff and
when the light hits it, it feelsvery heavenly.
That's so pretty, I know. So if you're interested, if this
is something that you would likefor your own loved one,
(06:44):
spiritpieces.com/every Widow thing so they know that you
heard about it through us, is a great option for for you and for
your loved one. We hope you check it out.
And now, back to the show. Seeing my daughter in this
situation and it, it just brought back so much the same
(07:08):
feeling of loss and numbness andnot knowing where to do where to
go next or what to do next or being able to make any sense out
of it. And I felt, I mean, for so long,
(07:30):
probably till after the trial, alot of the same emotions that I
felt when I lost my wife. And it just, it crushed me.
And again, I'm sort of, I'm on the ripple of it, you know?
So did you know MO before this? She was.
(07:54):
Friends with Caitlin, I had never.
Met her I, my mother was the, the, the one chance I was
probably going to have the meterwas going up to Vermont to visit
her family for at Christmas and Katie and I couldn't go because
my mother was in the last couplemonths of her life.
So Anna went up and and and and and met her and met the family.
(08:18):
And so she and Caitlin were super close.
Yes, they had only known each other six months, but I mean
boom, an instant friendship justso.
She was in town and was staying at the.
She was in town and staying at Caitlin's for.
There was a race that was going on.
Right in Texas, a big bike ride and she was well known.
(08:38):
One of the top up and coming, ormaybe the top rider in this
gravel thing staying with Caitlin.
Went out with a guy she knew. Anyways, it it.
Yeah, they get murdered. Caitlin comes home, finds her.
You know, the the police call me.
This is 9:30 at night. The police call me at 11.
(08:58):
I go over, you know, Caitlin still got blood on her.
I at the Police Department, I call Katie.
Katie came home from an out of town trip the next morning.
I called Anna. Anna came over that morning.
Caitlin stayed at the house and it's just, you know, it's just
everything you had to go through, going to the apartment
the next day to do some things and work with the police and
(09:19):
clean up and everything that yougo through this up and down of
it, just it was a lot of the same things.
And I just felt for a really long time I didn't know what to
do. I didn't know where to go next.
I couldn't get my head above water.
Started some therapy again. Yeah, you're watching your and
(09:41):
this is what we all went throughwhen our spouses died.
You're watching your child go through a pain that you can't
fix. You can't have her Unsee what
she saw. You can't take away any of that.
And it is just heart wrenching as a parent to have to watch it.
(10:05):
Call you or did she call you were called contact by the
police. Yeah, she called 911 and
amazingly spent 10 minutes on the on the phone, on the 911
call doing ACPR for someone who's already dead.
Good for her. Wow.
Yeah, Strong. She must be.
(10:26):
Amazing. She's she's strong.
So you go. You said you went back to
therapy, but was that after the trial or like how were you
coping? Because the trial was November
of last year, right? November of 2023.
Yeah. So the trial's pretty recent.
It's pretty recent. When did I start Before Before.
(10:47):
Yeah, we talked about it and. And it's like, I just can't
she's well, maybe maybe some therapy would be good.
And so I started doing that. And which eventually is that OK
to say evolved into some couplestherapy because you know.
She hadn't been with you when you dealt with your first grief,
(11:10):
and now she's having to be a part of this compounded grief.
And she you're grieving too, because you love Caitlin and
you're seeing Caitlin go throughthis.
I would imagine it would be verystressful on a marriage.
Well, I mean, you add the fact that it was such a horrific
tragedy and, and, and nonsensical.
I mean, you know what I mean. It's not like most people ever
(11:31):
have to deal with something so public.
And here you are splashed all over the news.
I can't, I really can't imagine it.
And so I would imagine any marriage would would be
challenged. Was Caitlin living?
I would assume that she was. Didn't want to stay in that
apartment at the time so. You would be wrong.
So she stayed in the. She lives.
(11:53):
She's still in that apartment day because she can't afford to
buy a house in Austin. And two, she says.
I feel Mariah's presence. Here, of course, I love that I
just got. Chills.
So sweet. So she wasn't living with you.
I would think that would also bea stressful thing if but.
Did she spend a period of time at your house?
I don't know why I recall you saying that or but not.
(12:15):
A month. But a month?
OK, maybe. Yeah.
And she she stayed with some friends during that time off and
on. But yeah.
I would imagine you, you, they it was a crime scene, so she had
to stay away for a while, right?Well they keep you out of like a
2 days. Oh, OK.
So you're having this these all these emotions coming back,
(12:36):
which is what we wanted to address in terms of like, when
you've gone through something like with Elaine and then
something else happens and there's some backsliding that
can happen like you were saying,and you're so smart to recognize
and say, got to get back into therapy, got to nip this in the
bud and. Well, it took.
A while. It took a while and, and, and
(12:57):
Elaine was, I mean, Kate, Katie was like, OK, maybe maybe you
should be doing this. And then it's maybe we should be
doing this together. Well, I've had a question.
Didn't you tell me, Don, that you're in school to be a?
Therapist I am. So when did that come about?
Like was it before this tragedy or after?
(13:19):
Or after actually. Is that what precipitated you to
do that? One of the things, yeah, because
I it just, it really struck me about how precious life is.
And I was looking ahead and thinking, OK, what, what kind of
legacy do I want to leave? And I'll be working for another,
you know, 15 years or more. And I, I thought this is a good
(13:42):
time to start something new. And it had been in the back of
my mind a few times to, to mental health counseling is what
I'm studying. So but these events recently and
I thought no, I'm going to do this.
Actually, to the people who cometo see you as clients, I hope
you've been through some stuff. What?
(14:02):
Were you noticing that was happening to Don and and your
relationship and this and. You know, I, I just noticed a,
noticed a change in Don, you know, being kind of impatient
and, and very easily frustrated and angered and about things
(14:29):
that normally wouldn't bother him, you know, and, and then
also worries that he had talked about, you know, that I thought,
oh, it would maybe a good idea to talk to somebody, you know,
'cause this is such a such a situation that many of us
wouldn't have have happened before.
So I thought that would be good to help process that.
(14:52):
And but, yeah, I mean, it was really just kind of seeing him
kind of lost and, you know, his he had retired and then these
things happened, you know, caring for his mom and and then
this and so, you know. Going through that's a lot.
I remember thinking because I had some nothing like what you
(15:15):
were dealing with, but I had some hardships come up after my
husband died and I was like thisis so fucking unfair and I can
imagine for you thinking this child has been through enough
and now. This yes.
I would imagine that anger wouldcome back hard.
Yeah, because Caitlin was young when her mom died, and then she
(15:37):
has to experience this and she'sstill young.
Well, I'm 68 and I still want totake care of my kids.
Yeah, I still want to protect them.
And boy, you can't. Well, did you tell me a little
bit about EMDR? Because I actually did call that
person. I would love for her to be on
the show. She hasn't agreed to it yet, but
she but she's so busy, which is good.
(15:58):
That means she's really good. Well, apparently.
There's shortages of plumbers and therapists well.
Good we're. Going back to work, but she
specializes in EMDR and I talkedto her yesterday and you so can
you tell us a little? Bit about that, Katie was
explaining to me some of how that works this morning because
I don't know. All I know is, is that Caitlin,
(16:19):
she was working at a tech company here in addition to her
milk tea business. And surprisingly, the large tech
company gave her six months off.And then I think they might have
actually paid her for that. I'm not sure.
They were very, very supportive at that at that point in time.
(16:43):
And so, yeah, I'm, I'm calling around, you know, my job is to
call around and find therapist for, you know, in, in the next
month. And she did some.
But the one thing that came up that people would talk about was
the EMDR. Works like a charm.
And so my understanding from heris that she she wanted to do
(17:06):
that wait till after the trial was over.
And so she is working with a therapist and I've asked her
about it a few times and apparently it is unbelievably
intense and unbelievably hard todo and painful.
And she feels like she's making great progress and really likes
(17:26):
the therapist. And so she's.
Amazing. That's super encouraging.
And that was like, you have to be on the show.
You have to be able to come and,and show people just, and she
said, oh, it's a short amount oftime, four or five times you'll
come. And she's doing it online, which
I thought was crazy because I thought you had to be in person.
And she said, no, I, she had clients in Costa Rica.
(17:48):
She has them all over the world.And she's able to do this
therapy. She said usually five or six.
She had been in a car accident. I thought about you two.
She had been in a car accident at like age 25 and did EMDR and
that's what cured her so Katie, Katie explained.
The fact. That our listeners what?
Everybody knows what EMDR. Is yeah, that's a good, good
(18:08):
question. OK, I'll.
I'll, I'll try to, yeah. I just know, I only know just a
little bit about it. But so EMDR is a way that a
therapist can speak to part of the client's brain by motion
(18:30):
activating the left and right sides of the brain while the
client is remembering some of the experience.
Maybe not the whole thing or theworst parts, but the client is,
is thinking about the experienceand the therapist is guiding
them through and that is speaking to part of their brain
(18:51):
that is telling the body it's soyou're safe right now.
And so the practice of that discharges some of the physical
response so that then the the person, the client can not be so
activated by memories of the trauma.
And get these like buzzers in your hand that you get that some
(19:15):
of them, some of them do that. You put buzzers 'cause I did it.
And it works. Yeah, there's different ways
they. Do that.
So it's amazing that they can take you through this traumatic
experience over and over and over, and by the time you're
done, you're like, whatever. I just can't even.
Carry, the hardest part is you are 'cause I did it also for
when I was immediately after thecar accident, I was trapped in
(19:37):
the vehicle. And if you are reliving those
moments, like if Caitlin was reliving those moments when she
discovered her friend, you physically relive when you think
of it and there are, you know, there's stressors on the body
and you're always like going through this trauma again.
And so it's supposed to kind of,like you said, sort of divert
(20:00):
the brain and the body from eachother so that you can talk about
it. I mean, I went through and I
still can't explain it, but I was doing things like looking at
colors and lights while repeating over and over and
over. But that is a very hard.
To have to and he would just sayagain, again, again and I'd have
(20:20):
to talk about it again. But now when I talk about parts
of the accident, it's almost like I'm detached.
So it really does work, and really is quite apparently.
Moves it from the frontal cortexto the back so you're not in
fight or flight mode all the time, but.
Well, I think, I think you know,since since you got me in here,
(20:40):
since I'm a guy and a widower and all you ladies come have one
perspective and I have another is, you know, OK, males, men,
don't be afraid to go talk to somebody.
OK. It took Me 2 1/2 years and then
it took Katie kind of prodding me again this time.
(21:03):
But these things have actually helped me, you know?
And I wouldn't have done that. I would have said a bartender
friend, don't be afraid to do it.
It doesn't make you a weenie. You know, we need help and you
know, you got your friends that help, your spouse that helps,
your kids that help and you know, go give somebody 160 bucks
(21:26):
an hour and get some help or go to the thing, you know, the the
group thing. Go, go.
Whatever. Whatever, it's right in the
show. What do you guys think?
I. Appreciate you saying that we.
Really do because you can speak to an audience.
We can't they. I think that if you want to live
a healthy life, therapy, EMDR, those grief groups, those are
(21:48):
the best ways that we've found to help us.
And you can always spot the people that have not considered
it. Oh.
Then you find friends of mine and that are like, oh.
And Caitlin says some of her friends do couple stuff.
Just they're doing, they're doing great.
But it's like it never hurts to go and.
Well, what we all know is if youdon't address it, that doesn't
mean it goes away. It's going to bubble up and and
(22:13):
especially with compound grief, if you did the work the first
time, it makes these other losses that happen a little bit
more manageable. It does.
So thank you guys. We.
Really appreciate you guys coming today because your
vulnerability will help so many people.
We know this is a tough day for you because when we went through
(22:34):
our own individual stories, I don't know about that, I think
they said the same thing. It took a couple of days.
I had to kind of decompress and and so we appreciate it, but
you're helping a lot of people. Just know that the good that
comes from it is that, so we appreciate you being here today.
And you both so much. We want all of you listeners out
(22:55):
there to follow us on every widow thing, Instagram, Facebook
and please like us and subscribeto YouTube Every widow thing.
Bye.
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