November 18, 2024 • 32 mins
What is EMDR? How does it work? Who does it help? On this episode Lacey, Keira and Whitney speak to EMDR specialist Katie Cummings. Katie is a renowned trauma therapist with advanced training in Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR), a powerful approach to healing trauma.
In Part 1, you will observe Katie facilitating an EMDR session with Lacey to address her aviophobia (fear of flying.)
Keira will also discuss her profound experience with Emotion Efficacy Therapy (EET). A variety of therapeutic approaches can be effective in treating trauma, and EMDR is a proven method.
https://www.katiecummingslpc.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You found us. I'm glad you did, but I'm so
sorry you had to. The good news is we got you.
So come sit in our widow circle where trauma meets humor and we
remind you that you can not onlysurvive, but thrive.
This is every widow thing. Hi, welcome back.
I'm Laci with every widow thing.And I'm here today with Whitney
(00:21):
and Kira. And we have a special guest,
Katie Cummings with us today. Welcome, Katie.
Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here.
We are thrilled to have you. I'm going to tell you a little
bit about Katie. She is a renowned trauma
therapist with advanced trainingand eye Movement Desensitization
and Reprocessing, or EMDR, a powerful approach to healing
(00:44):
trauma. Integrating EMDR with internal
family systems, somatic experiencing, and neuroscience,
Katie guides individuals and couples through profound
transformations. With her compassionate approach
and deep understanding of the brain's response to trauma.
She shares insights on resilience, healing, and
fostering deep connections to self and others.
(01:06):
So we hope you're going to join us today and explore her unique
therapeutic approach and the incredible impact of EMDR on
emotional recovery and relational growth.
I'm so excited to talk about this subject.
We've been talking about it on the show for quite some time.
We have even put it on our IG but I have done it I think.
(01:27):
I've never done it. I didn't even know anything
about it until I started hookingup with you guys.
OK. All right.
I did something similar was recommended to me called ETT
with Doctor Vasquez here in Austin and that was super
helpful with the traumatic experience that I went through.
So yeah. Yeah.
Well, what we could do is maybe First off tell everybody because
(01:50):
we've had a lot of questions andwe can't respond because we
don't even. Really understand.
It I've done it and it worked for me, but I don't know what it
is. It works, but we don't know why
exactly, right? So tell us what it is, how it
works, and then we'll go from there.
It's so it can appear so mysterious, so and and it's it
is a complicated process. It's an 8 phase protocol and so
(02:14):
a lot of people think that EMDR is happening only when eye
movements happen or only during the desensitization process.
But really even the first meeting is EMDR.
It's history taking. It's getting to know the person
to feel if it's a good fit and, and asking questions and
assessing if someone is a good fit for EMDR.
(02:36):
So it EMDR stands for Eye Movement Desensitization and
Reprocessing, and it was invented by Francine Shapiro.
And the way that I was taught that she learned it, There are a
couple different versions out there.
And is that she experienced something really activating in
her life. She had a loss in her life and
(02:58):
she went for a walk and she sat up down on a bench and she
watched people playing tennis. And as she was feeling the loss
and all the feelings that came up with it, she would watch the
ball go back and forth and she noticed that there was a
decrease in her activation. And what does that mean?
(03:19):
Deactivation as in a. Trigger yeah, perfect.
And that's a great other word for it.
So you know, like when you feel it in your body, like something
is surging up and it and it could be through any of the
senses, it could be through smell, it could be through a
memory that pops up. It could be from a flashback.
And. And so, so she's, she sits
(03:40):
there, she's watching the ball go back and forth and she's
like, she's a clinician at the time.
And she's like, I want to try this and see what, see what
happens. So she starts to do some of the
eye movement with some of her clients and it starts to
integrate. And so this was in the 80s.
And so, so it is so she experiments.
And I mean, now we're here at Emdr's level a researched, it's,
(04:03):
it's a it's massively effective method.
It's not the only method for trauma, but it is one that feels
like it's the surgical version. Well, what's the science behind
it? Because I understand it kind of
a distraction like watching the tennis ball.
(04:23):
I my non science brain would be like, Oh well, you're
distracting your mind from thosethoughts, but there's more
science. Oh yeah, behind it like
neuropaths and. It is so that that aspect of why
that worked was what we called dual attention.
So she was able to hold that surge or that trigger or that
(04:46):
activation while also doing whatwe call a bilateral stimulation,
which is we move our eyes back and forth during REM sleep when
we're integrating memory. So it's like she landed on this,
this mechanism that we have in our body where we are designed
to heal and then paired it with what she was feeling.
(05:11):
And so, so there's the dual attention aspect.
But to bring more of the sciencein that dual attention in the
bilateral stimulation is only about 10% on why EMDR is
effective. The reason why EMDR is effective
and things like ETT or somatic experiencing is that it's
something we call the adaptive information processing model.
(05:33):
And please tell me if I'm getting too technical, people
will start to glaze over. But this is this is specifically
why it's effective is that we can isolate memory networks that
are holding that charge or that trigger.
The energy behind it you. Got it.
So for example, I, I was in a car accident when I was 16 and I
(05:56):
was at a stoplight and someone hit me going 60 and I was a
sitting duck. And I was, I was a new driver
and, and I, I carried that charge with me for a long time
until I discovered EMDR. And so I would white knuckle the
steering wheel when I was driving and, and feel like
(06:16):
someone was going to hit me at any moment.
And my belief at the time was that I'm not safe and I can be
harmed at any moment. And by identifying that belief,
which is what we do with EMDR, we find what someone's belief is
connected to the trauma. And so that can be related to
grief and loss, that can be related to any shocking event or
(06:39):
any attachment trauma. And so we, I, once I was able to
identify that and the my AMDR therapist was able to help me
desensitize that event and that trigger within which we call a
maladaptive memory network. And that's what holds the
trauma. And once it's cleared and
(07:00):
healed, it then goes to adaptiveinformation processing, meaning
that it connects with all of ourother knowing, which is like,
the world is also a good place. People love each other.
I'm safe. I'm not being harmed right now
and so when that happens, we don't erase the memory, but it
it shifts our beliefs about whathappened.
(07:22):
That is incredible. It really, that's the best
explanation I've ever heard about how it works is a lot of
times the clinicians or the people who are the therapist
don't really understand the science behind it.
Sticks out in our memory becauseit was awful.
It was. Traumatic.
And so our our very intelligent system is like, pay attention to
(07:43):
anything that feels like that. Yeah.
And so the trauma trying. To protect you.
Yes. And Spiderfly had that, yeah.
And that's probably Kira why youneeded the ETT EE.
T yeah, I ended up with someone recommended who worked with
people specifically who were in car accidents like I was.
And so he explained it to me. This was a few years ago, but
(08:07):
that when I thought about the event, the car accident or
talked about it with people. So one of the things when your
spouse dies is everyone wants toknow what happened.
And I found myself having to explain to a lot of people what
had happened to us. And so every time I would
explain it, I would sort of havethat physical post traumatic
(08:31):
sort of, you know, experience oflike experiencing like what went
on in the accident and in the car.
Living it. Every time trapped in the car
and, you know, my child was crying and I couldn't see my
husband. And so, yeah, I was having like,
that physical reaction every time.
And he explained to me that he was going to be able to separate
(08:53):
that out somehow where I would be able to think about it and
talk about it and not relive it every time.
Yes, if that makes sense. Yes, that's part of that
desensitization and, and there are two aspects to grief.
And when I work with people who have gone through something like
this where we split up the grieffrom the trauma.
(09:17):
So, and I know there's a lot of overlap, but we can work on the
shock of what happened and desensitize that grief is its
own unique organic process. And EMDR can't always heal that.
People that love you and having presents with people that love
(09:37):
you or whatever you need, whatever that looks like,
there's no judgement. It is, it is everyone's own
process. And so splitting, splitting up
what EMDR can do for grief is really important in setting up
expectations about the healing that can be done.
Well, that is the next question of like who is a good candidate
because it sounds like you don'tjust do it for oh, I lost my
(10:00):
husband. I'm going to do EMDR.
It's more there was something traumatic.
I mean, it's traumatic, but you know what I'm saying?
There's an event or something? Well, I have a question to
piggyback on that as well. While you were talking, and I
remember this, me specifically, I don't like to fly.
Well, what happened to my husband had absolutely nothing
(10:21):
to do with flying 0. Now I didn't know someone who
died in a plane crash. So and I do think about her
every time I fly over the pond. But that's not that's not it,
though. I know it isn't because I've
flown plenty of times After that.
After my husband died, flying became the thing.
And so I was like, what is the problem?
It's it becomes and and that's something like I'm sure with her
(10:44):
driving, but mine had nothing todo.
Hers make sense to me. Mine does not.
Why did it like my son always just like what's the deal with
flying? I was like, I don't know, but
that's where it went. So coupled with who is a good
candidate and would you turn that person away that had grief
associated with that kind of trauma that had nothing to do
(11:06):
with how they died or are they agood candidate?
I don't know. It's such a great question on
who is a good candidate because I go back to that there, there
are two. So I not only especially as in
in EMDR, I have advanced training, training and trauma
healing. So the there are two different
types of trauma that we look like look at in general.
(11:27):
And I kind of want to try and experiment with you in a little
bit. If you're up for it based on
your question, fix it. OK.
OK, you can always pass always but you know, we refer to it and
it's a little bit outdated but I'm going to name like what I
how I learned it was that there is big T trauma and little T
trauma and big T trauma is the shock Shock Trauma.
(11:48):
It's what y'all went through. I mean, it is and it and it's
anything else related to that 911 like things like that where
you people usually associate trauma with Shock Trauma and
then there's little T trauma andlittle T trauma is is probably
who I work with the most. And it's little beliefs over
(12:09):
time, specifically in childhood with your attachment figures,
your parents, where it creates some of those maladaptive memory
networks. And those are beliefs like I'm
unworthy, I can never get it right, I'm bad, I'm ugly.
(12:29):
And, and when those collect overtime, you'll see someone who is
highly anxious, who can have PTSD symptoms, who doesn't
understand their self worth. And I, I'm not as concerned with
what the symptoms look like, more like what the belief is
underneath it. So if you're like, how what does
(12:52):
flying have to do with it? OK, so this is where we're
trying to experiment. OK, OK, so when you think about
flying, does it still, is it still around to this day?
Yes. OK, I did EMDR before this
happened. OK.
OK. So and have you done EMDR on the
the flying? No.
OK, cool. Perfect.
But I want to, yeah. You're about to right now.
(13:13):
You're here today. OK, so when you when you think
about flying like let's say you needed to go on a flight today
and anytime it feels like it's too much, hold up a stop sign
because your nervous system is our boss, OK?
OK. And the most important aspect of
(13:34):
trauma healing is titrating, meaning that like a pendulum, we
go into it and we go out of it so that your nervous system can
handle the activation or the trigger that's coming up so.
I'm already nervous. Uh huh, uh huh.
So hold up the stop sign Anytime.
OK, so where do you feel that inyour body?
(13:55):
Right here in my chest. Yes.
So if you, you can even close your eyes if you feel
comfortable with that and just be with that.
And we are right here with you as you're noticing that.
And which emotions do you noticeright now?
(14:15):
Boy, this is good out of control.
Fear, fear. And you can even right here put
both of your feet on the ground.OK, so that you just notice that
we are not flying right now. We're just thinking about flying
and out of control comes up. Yes, because my husband's death
was something I couldn't control.
(14:35):
You got it. Yeah, exactly.
And you're beautifully intelligent.
System is going to say don't do anything that could feel out of
control, right, Right. Can you see the intelligence in
that? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And how that part really wants to watch out for you.
(14:56):
And So what do you notice right now?
Weirdly calmer, I told you. Wow, I.
Think it might be your voice because I just take your voice
home with me. Absolutely, any day.
So I'm going to ask you one morequestion.
You're doing so great. OK, so let's identify your
belief about yourself related toflying.
(15:18):
Is it something like I'm not in control?
I'm not safe? What?
What are the words that go with it?
Safe is a big thing for me. Yeah.
And if you were to name the belief I am not safe, does that
hit the nail on the head? Yes.
OK. And when you think about I am
not safe with flying, how intense is that right now on a
zero to 10? Zero.
(15:39):
It's not as bad as it was earlier.
Beautiful. Yeah.
So you released some of it. Yeah.
And so which number would you give it now?
Probably A5. A5, yeah, OK.
And A5 is you. Look more serene, yeah?
OK, so take a couple of deep breaths and then if there's
anything else you want to noticefrom here, you can.
(16:00):
Otherwise, you can open your eyes when you're ready.
Wow that's so crazy that and y'all were even.
I usually don't do well if they're other people.
Like, I trust them though, and Ifeel safe with them.
So that's part of it. But it's a scary thing to
therapy of this kind for me. I don't imagine you felt this
too, like when you had me go seethe same doctor that time.
(16:23):
You have to trust the person. Oh, yeah.
And that was one thing I felt immediately when I talked to you
on the phone that day. I thought, what am I telling
this person my whole life story within, you know, a few minutes
or less. But there was a safety feeling
there. And you have to feel safe with
the person that you're doing this with, because you have to
release it all in order for it to work.
(16:44):
Oh, yeah. And I do, I, I've, I'm a client
of EMDR. I, I started when I was 25.
I absolutely do my own work so that I, I understand what it's
like to be on the other side of the couch.
It is not easy. I get nervous every time I have
to process something because youhave to be with it.
And I, I've experienced my own trauma in my life.
And so it is, it feels like it doesn't ever go away.
(17:07):
Right There is. And there's different views that
we have at one of my mentors talks about how it's like, it's
like artwork that we can look atit head on and and feel
something about it. And then we can go to a
different angle and feel something about it.
So when we work on trauma, it's like we will work on the the
(17:29):
bulk of it and then maybe someone will come in in six
months and say, can I do a tune up session?
There's a little bit of something like a three that's
coming up for me and we'll we'lltune that up.
And then usually the processing is so easy because they've
already done the heavy lifting. Well, what if it's not trauma
related? What if someone has?
I think all of us have either experienced anxiety but ours,
(17:52):
you know, I had it before Oliver's death.
I had some anxiety before that. Just life and then our kids
have, you know, I think everybody's kids now are
suffering from anxiety. So how do how do you know if
they need EMDR or they just needtherapy?
That's a really good. Question, great question.
And I and I'll say that there are two approaches to therapy.
(18:15):
So there's a top down approach and a bottom up.
And top down is CBT, It's cognitive behavioral therapy,
it's talk therapy, it's finding ways of managing your symptoms
and while receiving support. And then bottom up is more of
(18:37):
the heavy lifting, which is how do we identify the root of
what's happening so that you don't have to manually override.
If we heal at the root, you do not have to manually override
your symptoms. Now the push and pull with that
is that not everyone is ready for heavy lifting.
So sometimes if someone is is ina really unstable place, then
(18:59):
they can't handle the deep, the deep work yet.
And so top down approach can help fortify them in some ways
so that then then they're ready to do the heavy lifting.
Yeah, I mean, I, I'm just tryingto, of course I, I go to my own
feelings and anxieties and then my children's anxieties.
(19:21):
And I'm like, well, for me, I grew up in an alcoholic family.
You know, my father was an alcoholic and then my sister
followed suit. And so my whole childhood was
around this, but it wasn't one traumatic event.
And I don't feel like I came outof it thinking that I'm, you
know, unworthy of anything. I guess what I came out with was
(19:45):
I need to solve every. I'm, I'm going to take on
everybody's issues and solve them all.
But it creates a shit ton of anxiety because I have no
control when they're little. I have tons of control.
Now they're off in college and I've got.
Very. Little control over them and the
rest of their life. Like, I'll wake up in the middle
of the night. Like, how's Hayden gonna get a
(20:07):
job? Well, what's he gotta do in
order to get a job? Well, what's Sydney gonna do?
Is she ever gonna get married? What?
What about happened? She has a baby.
Like, what a, you know, just ridiculousness future
traumatizing myself with things that haven't ever even happened.
Does EMDR help that 'cause my nervous system right now, just
talking about it is out of control.
(20:28):
So like I'm still a little confused on who can benefit.
It sounded like everyone could benefit from it.
It's more about the charge. I think that about the trigger.
So you know, if someone comes inand they're like, I really want
to try EMDR and I think it's about something related to my
(20:50):
college experience and they're only activated about it too.
It's hard to get into it enough to then clear it.
It's when you're at an 8 on a zero to 10 or 0 is nothing and
10's the highest imaginable. You feel a release.
In a way you're like, wow, that was life changing for me.
(21:12):
I feel so different. And what's beautiful is that
with EMDR, it will decrease and desensitize, but then it it
continues to integrate over time.
It doesn't pop back up unless, like I mentioned with the
artwork, there's another angle to look at.
But you know, it's usually assessing if someone has enough
(21:34):
of a charge. Usually it's that feeling of
like, I know I need this, but I don't want to do it right.
Yeah, I don't want. To put the work in or feel all
those feelings. No.
And, and, and I, I have you heard of internal family systems
work, Richard Schwartz's work? OK, so that is probably my
(21:54):
second favorite to work with alongside EMDR other than
neuroscience and even yoga and things like that.
But so do you want me to go intoit?
OK, OK, let's do it Face light up when you.
Mentioned it, so I want to know what's got you so.
Well, he so the movie Inside Outis based off of Richard
(22:14):
Schwartz's work. OK And so for the parts they
labeled them as emotions, but helooks at it a little
differently. And so when when something
happens. So his theory is that we all are
born with self energy. And when we are in self energy,
there are 8 CS and a few of themare confidence, clarity,
(22:38):
compassion, creativity, connection.
And what happens is that we experience trauma and trauma.
The best definition that I have for trauma is when anything is
too much, too fast, or too soon.And I feel like our culture
(23:00):
likes to put a lot of value judgements on who qualifies for
trauma and who doesn't. And I feel like that's really
unfair because it's a subjectiveexperience.
And so anything that's too much,too fast or too soon for our
nervous systems will show up as a hurt part.
So this is where we get into theparts.
(23:22):
So a part will show up and let'ssay that part is the belief that
you need. So I'm not safe.
And what will happen is that thenervousness, especially if
you're a little kid, can't handle feeling that all the
time. So you develop unconsciously
protectors to keep you from feeling that all the time.
(23:44):
So protectors show up in the versions of managers and
firefighters and those parts will look like excessive video
game playing, binge eating, a type, personalities.
So many different things, ways of numbing, distracting,
perfectionism. Perfect one, yes.
(24:06):
Opposite of people who have fearbecause I do it.
Yes, I know that I know I'm doing it and I don't want to do
it, but it's how I manage. Like when Oliver died, I
obsessively would clean. I would obsessively make sure
every dot was dotted and every did y'all do that?
Like a way of controlling your environment because you couldn't
control what happened. There's a.
(24:27):
Did y'all feel that at? All I went straight to just
cussing. So you had a cussing protector
that showed up and I. Started cussing like a.
Sailor Hero. What was I don't know.
I had so many things that came at me.
I had so many different facets to my trauma that I don't think
(24:49):
I went into one thing, but I definitely avoidance was big and
I still avoid certain things like going through photos and
going through his things. I still, I avoid, I avoid the
the pain of that kind of stuff and I was avoiding the
processing of what had happened in the car accident, which is
(25:10):
how I ended up with Doctor Vasquez, which was good.
What about your escapisms? I remember you and I've talked.
We both love to travel, which isironic.
I got out of town a lot. I did.
I left town a lot and I fantasized a lot about leaving
this area permanently. I'm still fantasized about that
actually, but I wanted to get away.
(25:31):
I, I was told everyone made fun of me when I was in the hospital
and I had was on a lot of drugs that I had told everyone that
the kids and I were going to move to Hawaii.
I had never even visited Hawaii.I didn't know anyone in Hawaii.
But I was on a lot of Dilaudid and I think I just had this
really strong escape instinct. I just wanted to leave the place
(25:54):
that had done this to me, where this had taken place.
And all the reminders of the life that you lost.
Yeah, and I've stayed. I've stayed for 10 years, but I
still have that urge to kind of leave the place where it
happened. I chose not to because that
wasn't the best thing at the time, but for the kids or for
(26:15):
like, you know, all of the medical things that we were
going through and I was going through.
But strong escapism urges huge. Which I think that makes a lot
of sense. Yeah.
Who wants to stick around? I mean, you experienced trauma
as well. I mean, who wants to stick
around in it? But we all know that it will
find you and it can't be circumvented.
(26:36):
So we're all big believers in doing the work because even even
though we had you and I both hada strong desire to escape, we
knew we had to do the work or wewould never get better.
It was never going to get better.
That's why I believe in EMDR. I mean, and it's weird, it
didn't even take that many sessions.
Well, that was going to be my next question is how long does
it typically take? And I know everybody's
(26:57):
different. I think it's, It depends on how
complex it is. And so part of the protocol is
assessing and treatment planningand I sit down with my clients
to show them, OK, so how many wecall them targets.
So what we identified with Laci that would that would be a
target around flying and that's one target.
(27:19):
And it sounds like because it's of 1A belief around safety that
there could be other targets related to that.
And so it I'm able to give someone an idea of how many
after we assess how complex it is and which belief it is.
I really mean it when I say the person's nervous system is our
(27:40):
boss because we cannot go fasterthan what their nervous system
is able to handle. That will re traumatize someone
it sort. Of felt like that when I was
going through it, I did not enjoy it at all.
It was very, very, very hard. And I would try to get up and
leave and he's like, just sit down, just take a minute.
(28:02):
Because it just wasn't fun. No.
And I felt like also, I guess I have a little bit of the
perfectionism. I felt like I wasn't doing it
right. I felt like like the whole time
I'm in the process trying to process the trauma, I also felt
like I was failing at it. And so that was a whole other
like dual thing that was fighting inside me because every
(28:23):
time I would, he had me sitting and looking at a color chart and
it was a rainbow. And it was, I don't want to get
too far into it, but I would have to like, for instance, look
at the green layer of the rainbow chart and talk about
being trapped in the car and talk about catching on fire and
(28:43):
talk about that moment. And he made me repeat it over
and over and over and over. And the whole color chart would
turn brown. So crazy.
And he was like, if it turns brown, you have to stop.
You have to be able to still seethe color.
So we would just do it over and over.
(29:04):
And it kept turning brown for mebecause when I would talk about
these events, my whole vision would just kind of go black,
right? Right.
And it was cool in the way that it worked, but it was also not
easy. And then I was mad because he'd
be like, OK, let's switch to orange.
And like that orange was even worse.
Like I would start to tell the story and it would go brown
(29:24):
immediately. When I looked at orange, he's
like, OK, orange isn't good. Let's go back to let's go back
to green. What?
Your green does is I mean. Yeah, the fact that you lose
color. Everything just would go black.
And you can be impatient with a lot of the process too.
I mean, and DRI thought if I have to repeat this one more
(29:45):
time, I'm just so over like talking.
That I love that you brought that up and when I think about
repeating that experience, I really like to bring in Laura
Parnell's work, which is attachment based EMDR which and
is it OK if I name a little bit of what you said about the
trauma specific? Yeah, of course.
(30:06):
So we bring in resourcing. We, it's called installation of
resourcing into that memory. So if it feels like too much and
if you're going, if you're not able to stay with the green,
that tells me that you're going outside of your window of
tolerance, which I can explain in a minute, which is so useful.
I use it all the time, but we would install a nurturing,
(30:28):
protective and wise figure onto the scene of that memory for.
You. Oh.
Cool, I just got chilled. Right.
It is so powerful. She's brilliant and and we we
spend time picking who it is andwho needs to be there and
sometimes. It's an actual person.
Oh, I mean, some people have done, Mrs. Weasley from Harry
(30:50):
Potter. It is like the Sky's the limit.
It's like a grandmother who's passed.
It's like your child. It's like whoever, yes.
It is not about how do we desensitize, How do we get you
out of this memory? How do we make you feel better
as fast as possible? It's how do we resource and pay
attention to the intelligence ofyour body and what it's telling
(31:14):
you and me about what's needed because I'm not the expert in
that. You are.
You have all of the wisdom, everything you need within you
to heal it. I'm just along for the ride.
And I do just want to clarify and say that Doctor Vasquez was
great and did help me a great deal.
It wasn't like I was being tortured.
No, he was super kind and gentle.
(31:34):
It just when you were talking about how hard the bottom up
that kind of work is, it is no joke.
It's easier to just go in the therapist's office and bitch
about the election or your neighbors or it's easier to go
and do that kind of therapy thanwhat we're talking about where
you're actually reliving these like really horrific moments.
(31:55):
We're going to stop here and leteverybody take a breath.
This is going to be part one of our conversation with Katie.
Join us for Part 2, where she discusses some of the techniques
in an EMDR session, how to choose the right therapist, and
how EMDR can help people in grief.
Oh, and Kyra compares it to her gynecologist.
You're not going to want to missit.
(32:16):
Stay tuned.
You found us. I'm glad you did, but I'm so
sorry you had to. The good news is we got you.
So come sit in our widow circle where trauma meets humor and we
remind you that you can not onlysurvive, but thrive.
This is every widow thing. Hi, welcome back.
I'm Laci with every widow thing.And I'm here today with Whitney
(00:21):
and Kira. And we have a special guest,
Katie Cummings with us today. Welcome, Katie.
Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here.
We are thrilled to have you. I'm going to tell you a little
bit about Katie. She is a renowned trauma
therapist with advanced trainingand eye Movement Desensitization
and Reprocessing, or EMDR, a powerful approach to healing
(00:44):
trauma. Integrating EMDR with internal
family systems, somatic experiencing, and neuroscience,
Katie guides individuals and couples through profound
transformations. With her compassionate approach
and deep understanding of the brain's response to trauma.
She shares insights on resilience, healing, and
fostering deep connections to self and others.
(01:06):
So we hope you're going to join us today and explore her unique
therapeutic approach and the incredible impact of EMDR on
emotional recovery and relational growth.
I'm so excited to talk about this subject.
We've been talking about it on the show for quite some time.
We have even put it on our IG but I have done it I think.
(01:27):
I've never done it. I didn't even know anything
about it until I started hookingup with you guys.
OK. All right.
I did something similar was recommended to me called ETT
with Doctor Vasquez here in Austin and that was super
helpful with the traumatic experience that I went through.
So yeah. Yeah.
Well, what we could do is maybe First off tell everybody because
(01:50):
we've had a lot of questions andwe can't respond because we
don't even. Really understand.
It I've done it and it worked for me, but I don't know what it
is. It works, but we don't know why
exactly, right? So tell us what it is, how it
works, and then we'll go from there.
It's so it can appear so mysterious, so and and it's it
is a complicated process. It's an 8 phase protocol and so
(02:14):
a lot of people think that EMDR is happening only when eye
movements happen or only during the desensitization process.
But really even the first meeting is EMDR.
It's history taking. It's getting to know the person
to feel if it's a good fit and, and asking questions and
assessing if someone is a good fit for EMDR.
(02:36):
So it EMDR stands for Eye Movement Desensitization and
Reprocessing, and it was invented by Francine Shapiro.
And the way that I was taught that she learned it, There are a
couple different versions out there.
And is that she experienced something really activating in
her life. She had a loss in her life and
(02:58):
she went for a walk and she sat up down on a bench and she
watched people playing tennis. And as she was feeling the loss
and all the feelings that came up with it, she would watch the
ball go back and forth and she noticed that there was a
decrease in her activation. And what does that mean?
(03:19):
Deactivation as in a. Trigger yeah, perfect.
And that's a great other word for it.
So you know, like when you feel it in your body, like something
is surging up and it and it could be through any of the
senses, it could be through smell, it could be through a
memory that pops up. It could be from a flashback.
And. And so, so she's, she sits
(03:40):
there, she's watching the ball go back and forth and she's
like, she's a clinician at the time.
And she's like, I want to try this and see what, see what
happens. So she starts to do some of the
eye movement with some of her clients and it starts to
integrate. And so this was in the 80s.
And so, so it is so she experiments.
And I mean, now we're here at Emdr's level a researched, it's,
(04:03):
it's a it's massively effective method.
It's not the only method for trauma, but it is one that feels
like it's the surgical version. Well, what's the science behind
it? Because I understand it kind of
a distraction like watching the tennis ball.
(04:23):
I my non science brain would be like, Oh well, you're
distracting your mind from thosethoughts, but there's more
science. Oh yeah, behind it like
neuropaths and. It is so that that aspect of why
that worked was what we called dual attention.
So she was able to hold that surge or that trigger or that
(04:46):
activation while also doing whatwe call a bilateral stimulation,
which is we move our eyes back and forth during REM sleep when
we're integrating memory. So it's like she landed on this,
this mechanism that we have in our body where we are designed
to heal and then paired it with what she was feeling.
(05:11):
And so, so there's the dual attention aspect.
But to bring more of the sciencein that dual attention in the
bilateral stimulation is only about 10% on why EMDR is
effective. The reason why EMDR is effective
and things like ETT or somatic experiencing is that it's
something we call the adaptive information processing model.
(05:33):
And please tell me if I'm getting too technical, people
will start to glaze over. But this is this is specifically
why it's effective is that we can isolate memory networks that
are holding that charge or that trigger.
The energy behind it you. Got it.
So for example, I, I was in a car accident when I was 16 and I
(05:56):
was at a stoplight and someone hit me going 60 and I was a
sitting duck. And I was, I was a new driver
and, and I, I carried that charge with me for a long time
until I discovered EMDR. And so I would white knuckle the
steering wheel when I was driving and, and feel like
(06:16):
someone was going to hit me at any moment.
And my belief at the time was that I'm not safe and I can be
harmed at any moment. And by identifying that belief,
which is what we do with EMDR, we find what someone's belief is
connected to the trauma. And so that can be related to
grief and loss, that can be related to any shocking event or
(06:39):
any attachment trauma. And so we, I, once I was able to
identify that and the my AMDR therapist was able to help me
desensitize that event and that trigger within which we call a
maladaptive memory network. And that's what holds the
trauma. And once it's cleared and
(07:00):
healed, it then goes to adaptiveinformation processing, meaning
that it connects with all of ourother knowing, which is like,
the world is also a good place. People love each other.
I'm safe. I'm not being harmed right now
and so when that happens, we don't erase the memory, but it
it shifts our beliefs about whathappened.
(07:22):
That is incredible. It really, that's the best
explanation I've ever heard about how it works is a lot of
times the clinicians or the people who are the therapist
don't really understand the science behind it.
Sticks out in our memory becauseit was awful.
It was. Traumatic.
And so our our very intelligent system is like, pay attention to
(07:43):
anything that feels like that. Yeah.
And so the trauma trying. To protect you.
Yes. And Spiderfly had that, yeah.
And that's probably Kira why youneeded the ETT EE.
T yeah, I ended up with someone recommended who worked with
people specifically who were in car accidents like I was.
And so he explained it to me. This was a few years ago, but
(08:07):
that when I thought about the event, the car accident or
talked about it with people. So one of the things when your
spouse dies is everyone wants toknow what happened.
And I found myself having to explain to a lot of people what
had happened to us. And so every time I would
explain it, I would sort of havethat physical post traumatic
(08:31):
sort of, you know, experience oflike experiencing like what went
on in the accident and in the car.
Living it. Every time trapped in the car
and, you know, my child was crying and I couldn't see my
husband. And so, yeah, I was having like,
that physical reaction every time.
And he explained to me that he was going to be able to separate
(08:53):
that out somehow where I would be able to think about it and
talk about it and not relive it every time.
Yes, if that makes sense. Yes, that's part of that
desensitization and, and there are two aspects to grief.
And when I work with people who have gone through something like
this where we split up the grieffrom the trauma.
(09:17):
So, and I know there's a lot of overlap, but we can work on the
shock of what happened and desensitize that grief is its
own unique organic process. And EMDR can't always heal that.
People that love you and having presents with people that love
(09:37):
you or whatever you need, whatever that looks like,
there's no judgement. It is, it is everyone's own
process. And so splitting, splitting up
what EMDR can do for grief is really important in setting up
expectations about the healing that can be done.
Well, that is the next question of like who is a good candidate
because it sounds like you don'tjust do it for oh, I lost my
(10:00):
husband. I'm going to do EMDR.
It's more there was something traumatic.
I mean, it's traumatic, but you know what I'm saying?
There's an event or something? Well, I have a question to
piggyback on that as well. While you were talking, and I
remember this, me specifically, I don't like to fly.
Well, what happened to my husband had absolutely nothing
(10:21):
to do with flying 0. Now I didn't know someone who
died in a plane crash. So and I do think about her
every time I fly over the pond. But that's not that's not it,
though. I know it isn't because I've
flown plenty of times After that.
After my husband died, flying became the thing.
And so I was like, what is the problem?
It's it becomes and and that's something like I'm sure with her
(10:44):
driving, but mine had nothing todo.
Hers make sense to me. Mine does not.
Why did it like my son always just like what's the deal with
flying? I was like, I don't know, but
that's where it went. So coupled with who is a good
candidate and would you turn that person away that had grief
associated with that kind of trauma that had nothing to do
(11:06):
with how they died or are they agood candidate?
I don't know. It's such a great question on
who is a good candidate because I go back to that there, there
are two. So I not only especially as in
in EMDR, I have advanced training, training and trauma
healing. So the there are two different
types of trauma that we look like look at in general.
(11:27):
And I kind of want to try and experiment with you in a little
bit. If you're up for it based on
your question, fix it. OK.
OK, you can always pass always but you know, we refer to it and
it's a little bit outdated but I'm going to name like what I
how I learned it was that there is big T trauma and little T
trauma and big T trauma is the shock Shock Trauma.
(11:48):
It's what y'all went through. I mean, it is and it and it's
anything else related to that 911 like things like that where
you people usually associate trauma with Shock Trauma and
then there's little T trauma andlittle T trauma is is probably
who I work with the most. And it's little beliefs over
(12:09):
time, specifically in childhood with your attachment figures,
your parents, where it creates some of those maladaptive memory
networks. And those are beliefs like I'm
unworthy, I can never get it right, I'm bad, I'm ugly.
(12:29):
And, and when those collect overtime, you'll see someone who is
highly anxious, who can have PTSD symptoms, who doesn't
understand their self worth. And I, I'm not as concerned with
what the symptoms look like, more like what the belief is
underneath it. So if you're like, how what does
(12:52):
flying have to do with it? OK, so this is where we're
trying to experiment. OK, OK, so when you think about
flying, does it still, is it still around to this day?
Yes. OK, I did EMDR before this
happened. OK.
OK. So and have you done EMDR on the
the flying? No.
OK, cool. Perfect.
But I want to, yeah. You're about to right now.
(13:13):
You're here today. OK, so when you when you think
about flying like let's say you needed to go on a flight today
and anytime it feels like it's too much, hold up a stop sign
because your nervous system is our boss, OK?
OK. And the most important aspect of
(13:34):
trauma healing is titrating, meaning that like a pendulum, we
go into it and we go out of it so that your nervous system can
handle the activation or the trigger that's coming up so.
I'm already nervous. Uh huh, uh huh.
So hold up the stop sign Anytime.
OK, so where do you feel that inyour body?
(13:55):
Right here in my chest. Yes.
So if you, you can even close your eyes if you feel
comfortable with that and just be with that.
And we are right here with you as you're noticing that.
And which emotions do you noticeright now?
(14:15):
Boy, this is good out of control.
Fear, fear. And you can even right here put
both of your feet on the ground.OK, so that you just notice that
we are not flying right now. We're just thinking about flying
and out of control comes up. Yes, because my husband's death
was something I couldn't control.
(14:35):
You got it. Yeah, exactly.
And you're beautifully intelligent.
System is going to say don't do anything that could feel out of
control, right, Right. Can you see the intelligence in
that? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And how that part really wants to watch out for you.
(14:56):
And So what do you notice right now?
Weirdly calmer, I told you. Wow, I.
Think it might be your voice because I just take your voice
home with me. Absolutely, any day.
So I'm going to ask you one morequestion.
You're doing so great. OK, so let's identify your
belief about yourself related toflying.
(15:18):
Is it something like I'm not in control?
I'm not safe? What?
What are the words that go with it?
Safe is a big thing for me. Yeah.
And if you were to name the belief I am not safe, does that
hit the nail on the head? Yes.
OK. And when you think about I am
not safe with flying, how intense is that right now on a
zero to 10? Zero.
(15:39):
It's not as bad as it was earlier.
Beautiful. Yeah.
So you released some of it. Yeah.
And so which number would you give it now?
Probably A5. A5, yeah, OK.
And A5 is you. Look more serene, yeah?
OK, so take a couple of deep breaths and then if there's
anything else you want to noticefrom here, you can.
(16:00):
Otherwise, you can open your eyes when you're ready.
Wow that's so crazy that and y'all were even.
I usually don't do well if they're other people.
Like, I trust them though, and Ifeel safe with them.
So that's part of it. But it's a scary thing to
therapy of this kind for me. I don't imagine you felt this
too, like when you had me go seethe same doctor that time.
(16:23):
You have to trust the person. Oh, yeah.
And that was one thing I felt immediately when I talked to you
on the phone that day. I thought, what am I telling
this person my whole life story within, you know, a few minutes
or less. But there was a safety feeling
there. And you have to feel safe with
the person that you're doing this with, because you have to
release it all in order for it to work.
(16:44):
Oh, yeah. And I do, I, I've, I'm a client
of EMDR. I, I started when I was 25.
I absolutely do my own work so that I, I understand what it's
like to be on the other side of the couch.
It is not easy. I get nervous every time I have
to process something because youhave to be with it.
And I, I've experienced my own trauma in my life.
And so it is, it feels like it doesn't ever go away.
(17:07):
Right There is. And there's different views that
we have at one of my mentors talks about how it's like, it's
like artwork that we can look atit head on and and feel
something about it. And then we can go to a
different angle and feel something about it.
So when we work on trauma, it's like we will work on the the
(17:29):
bulk of it and then maybe someone will come in in six
months and say, can I do a tune up session?
There's a little bit of something like a three that's
coming up for me and we'll we'lltune that up.
And then usually the processing is so easy because they've
already done the heavy lifting. Well, what if it's not trauma
related? What if someone has?
I think all of us have either experienced anxiety but ours,
(17:52):
you know, I had it before Oliver's death.
I had some anxiety before that. Just life and then our kids
have, you know, I think everybody's kids now are
suffering from anxiety. So how do how do you know if
they need EMDR or they just needtherapy?
That's a really good. Question, great question.
And I and I'll say that there are two approaches to therapy.
(18:15):
So there's a top down approach and a bottom up.
And top down is CBT, It's cognitive behavioral therapy,
it's talk therapy, it's finding ways of managing your symptoms
and while receiving support. And then bottom up is more of
(18:37):
the heavy lifting, which is how do we identify the root of
what's happening so that you don't have to manually override.
If we heal at the root, you do not have to manually override
your symptoms. Now the push and pull with that
is that not everyone is ready for heavy lifting.
So sometimes if someone is is ina really unstable place, then
(18:59):
they can't handle the deep, the deep work yet.
And so top down approach can help fortify them in some ways
so that then then they're ready to do the heavy lifting.
Yeah, I mean, I, I'm just tryingto, of course I, I go to my own
feelings and anxieties and then my children's anxieties.
(19:21):
And I'm like, well, for me, I grew up in an alcoholic family.
You know, my father was an alcoholic and then my sister
followed suit. And so my whole childhood was
around this, but it wasn't one traumatic event.
And I don't feel like I came outof it thinking that I'm, you
know, unworthy of anything. I guess what I came out with was
(19:45):
I need to solve every. I'm, I'm going to take on
everybody's issues and solve them all.
But it creates a shit ton of anxiety because I have no
control when they're little. I have tons of control.
Now they're off in college and I've got.
Very. Little control over them and the
rest of their life. Like, I'll wake up in the middle
of the night. Like, how's Hayden gonna get a
(20:07):
job? Well, what's he gotta do in
order to get a job? Well, what's Sydney gonna do?
Is she ever gonna get married? What?
What about happened? She has a baby.
Like, what a, you know, just ridiculousness future
traumatizing myself with things that haven't ever even happened.
Does EMDR help that 'cause my nervous system right now, just
talking about it is out of control.
(20:28):
So like I'm still a little confused on who can benefit.
It sounded like everyone could benefit from it.
It's more about the charge. I think that about the trigger.
So you know, if someone comes inand they're like, I really want
to try EMDR and I think it's about something related to my
(20:50):
college experience and they're only activated about it too.
It's hard to get into it enough to then clear it.
It's when you're at an 8 on a zero to 10 or 0 is nothing and
10's the highest imaginable. You feel a release.
In a way you're like, wow, that was life changing for me.
(21:12):
I feel so different. And what's beautiful is that
with EMDR, it will decrease and desensitize, but then it it
continues to integrate over time.
It doesn't pop back up unless, like I mentioned with the
artwork, there's another angle to look at.
But you know, it's usually assessing if someone has enough
(21:34):
of a charge. Usually it's that feeling of
like, I know I need this, but I don't want to do it right.
Yeah, I don't want. To put the work in or feel all
those feelings. No.
And, and, and I, I have you heard of internal family systems
work, Richard Schwartz's work? OK, so that is probably my
(21:54):
second favorite to work with alongside EMDR other than
neuroscience and even yoga and things like that.
But so do you want me to go intoit?
OK, OK, let's do it Face light up when you.
Mentioned it, so I want to know what's got you so.
Well, he so the movie Inside Outis based off of Richard
(22:14):
Schwartz's work. OK And so for the parts they
labeled them as emotions, but helooks at it a little
differently. And so when when something
happens. So his theory is that we all are
born with self energy. And when we are in self energy,
there are 8 CS and a few of themare confidence, clarity,
(22:38):
compassion, creativity, connection.
And what happens is that we experience trauma and trauma.
The best definition that I have for trauma is when anything is
too much, too fast, or too soon.And I feel like our culture
(23:00):
likes to put a lot of value judgements on who qualifies for
trauma and who doesn't. And I feel like that's really
unfair because it's a subjectiveexperience.
And so anything that's too much,too fast or too soon for our
nervous systems will show up as a hurt part.
So this is where we get into theparts.
(23:22):
So a part will show up and let'ssay that part is the belief that
you need. So I'm not safe.
And what will happen is that thenervousness, especially if
you're a little kid, can't handle feeling that all the
time. So you develop unconsciously
protectors to keep you from feeling that all the time.
(23:44):
So protectors show up in the versions of managers and
firefighters and those parts will look like excessive video
game playing, binge eating, a type, personalities.
So many different things, ways of numbing, distracting,
perfectionism. Perfect one, yes.
(24:06):
Opposite of people who have fearbecause I do it.
Yes, I know that I know I'm doing it and I don't want to do
it, but it's how I manage. Like when Oliver died, I
obsessively would clean. I would obsessively make sure
every dot was dotted and every did y'all do that?
Like a way of controlling your environment because you couldn't
control what happened. There's a.
(24:27):
Did y'all feel that at? All I went straight to just
cussing. So you had a cussing protector
that showed up and I. Started cussing like a.
Sailor Hero. What was I don't know.
I had so many things that came at me.
I had so many different facets to my trauma that I don't think
(24:49):
I went into one thing, but I definitely avoidance was big and
I still avoid certain things like going through photos and
going through his things. I still, I avoid, I avoid the
the pain of that kind of stuff and I was avoiding the
processing of what had happened in the car accident, which is
(25:10):
how I ended up with Doctor Vasquez, which was good.
What about your escapisms? I remember you and I've talked.
We both love to travel, which isironic.
I got out of town a lot. I did.
I left town a lot and I fantasized a lot about leaving
this area permanently. I'm still fantasized about that
actually, but I wanted to get away.
(25:31):
I, I was told everyone made fun of me when I was in the hospital
and I had was on a lot of drugs that I had told everyone that
the kids and I were going to move to Hawaii.
I had never even visited Hawaii.I didn't know anyone in Hawaii.
But I was on a lot of Dilaudid and I think I just had this
really strong escape instinct. I just wanted to leave the place
(25:54):
that had done this to me, where this had taken place.
And all the reminders of the life that you lost.
Yeah, and I've stayed. I've stayed for 10 years, but I
still have that urge to kind of leave the place where it
happened. I chose not to because that
wasn't the best thing at the time, but for the kids or for
(26:15):
like, you know, all of the medical things that we were
going through and I was going through.
But strong escapism urges huge. Which I think that makes a lot
of sense. Yeah.
Who wants to stick around? I mean, you experienced trauma
as well. I mean, who wants to stick
around in it? But we all know that it will
find you and it can't be circumvented.
(26:36):
So we're all big believers in doing the work because even even
though we had you and I both hada strong desire to escape, we
knew we had to do the work or wewould never get better.
It was never going to get better.
That's why I believe in EMDR. I mean, and it's weird, it
didn't even take that many sessions.
Well, that was going to be my next question is how long does
it typically take? And I know everybody's
(26:57):
different. I think it's, It depends on how
complex it is. And so part of the protocol is
assessing and treatment planningand I sit down with my clients
to show them, OK, so how many wecall them targets.
So what we identified with Laci that would that would be a
target around flying and that's one target.
(27:19):
And it sounds like because it's of 1A belief around safety that
there could be other targets related to that.
And so it I'm able to give someone an idea of how many
after we assess how complex it is and which belief it is.
I really mean it when I say the person's nervous system is our
(27:40):
boss because we cannot go fasterthan what their nervous system
is able to handle. That will re traumatize someone
it sort. Of felt like that when I was
going through it, I did not enjoy it at all.
It was very, very, very hard. And I would try to get up and
leave and he's like, just sit down, just take a minute.
(28:02):
Because it just wasn't fun. No.
And I felt like also, I guess I have a little bit of the
perfectionism. I felt like I wasn't doing it
right. I felt like like the whole time
I'm in the process trying to process the trauma, I also felt
like I was failing at it. And so that was a whole other
like dual thing that was fighting inside me because every
(28:23):
time I would, he had me sitting and looking at a color chart and
it was a rainbow. And it was, I don't want to get
too far into it, but I would have to like, for instance, look
at the green layer of the rainbow chart and talk about
being trapped in the car and talk about catching on fire and
(28:43):
talk about that moment. And he made me repeat it over
and over and over and over. And the whole color chart would
turn brown. So crazy.
And he was like, if it turns brown, you have to stop.
You have to be able to still seethe color.
So we would just do it over and over.
(29:04):
And it kept turning brown for mebecause when I would talk about
these events, my whole vision would just kind of go black,
right? Right.
And it was cool in the way that it worked, but it was also not
easy. And then I was mad because he'd
be like, OK, let's switch to orange.
And like that orange was even worse.
Like I would start to tell the story and it would go brown
(29:24):
immediately. When I looked at orange, he's
like, OK, orange isn't good. Let's go back to let's go back
to green. What?
Your green does is I mean. Yeah, the fact that you lose
color. Everything just would go black.
And you can be impatient with a lot of the process too.
I mean, and DRI thought if I have to repeat this one more
(29:45):
time, I'm just so over like talking.
That I love that you brought that up and when I think about
repeating that experience, I really like to bring in Laura
Parnell's work, which is attachment based EMDR which and
is it OK if I name a little bit of what you said about the
trauma specific? Yeah, of course.
(30:06):
So we bring in resourcing. We, it's called installation of
resourcing into that memory. So if it feels like too much and
if you're going, if you're not able to stay with the green,
that tells me that you're going outside of your window of
tolerance, which I can explain in a minute, which is so useful.
I use it all the time, but we would install a nurturing,
(30:28):
protective and wise figure onto the scene of that memory for.
You. Oh.
Cool, I just got chilled. Right.
It is so powerful. She's brilliant and and we we
spend time picking who it is andwho needs to be there and
sometimes. It's an actual person.
Oh, I mean, some people have done, Mrs. Weasley from Harry
(30:50):
Potter. It is like the Sky's the limit.
It's like a grandmother who's passed.
It's like your child. It's like whoever, yes.
It is not about how do we desensitize, How do we get you
out of this memory? How do we make you feel better
as fast as possible? It's how do we resource and pay
attention to the intelligence ofyour body and what it's telling
(31:14):
you and me about what's needed because I'm not the expert in
that. You are.
You have all of the wisdom, everything you need within you
to heal it. I'm just along for the ride.
And I do just want to clarify and say that Doctor Vasquez was
great and did help me a great deal.
It wasn't like I was being tortured.
No, he was super kind and gentle.
(31:34):
It just when you were talking about how hard the bottom up
that kind of work is, it is no joke.
It's easier to just go in the therapist's office and bitch
about the election or your neighbors or it's easier to go
and do that kind of therapy thanwhat we're talking about where
you're actually reliving these like really horrific moments.
(31:55):
We're going to stop here and leteverybody take a breath.
This is going to be part one of our conversation with Katie.
Join us for Part 2, where she discusses some of the techniques
in an EMDR session, how to choose the right therapist, and
how EMDR can help people in grief.
Oh, and Kyra compares it to her gynecologist.
You're not going to want to missit.
(32:16):
Stay tuned.
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