November 18, 2024 • 25 mins
In part 2, Lacey, Keira, and Whitney continue their conversation about EMDR therapy with Katie Cummings, a renowned trauma therapist with advanced training in Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR).
Katie discusses the different techniques used in an EMDR session, such as tapping and buzzers, and explains how triggers and targets are an important part of the process.
Katie gives listeners tips on what to look for when choosing a therapist and how EMDR can specifically help people who have suffered loss.
https://www.katiecummingslpc.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You found us. I'm glad you did, but I'm so
sorry you had to. The good news is we got you.
So come sit in our widow circle where trauma meets humor and we
remind you that you can not onlysurvive, but thrive.
This is every widow thing. We were getting so much great
information from EMDR specialistKatie Cummings that we had to
(00:22):
keep going. Welcome back to the
conversation. This is Part 2 When.
You were talking about how hard the bottom up that kind of work
is. It is no joke.
It's easier to just go in the therapist office and bitch about
the election or your neighbors or it's easier to go and do that
kind of therapy than what we're talking about where you're
(00:43):
actually reliving these like really horrific moment.
It's easy to fake it, like you just go in and talk about what
was bothering you that day and and never really dive down deep
into what the belief is around why that got you worked up so.
And I've even had therapists that couldn't figure that out
though either. So it was frustrating because
(01:03):
you felt like you were just going and paying for that hour
and it was just a dumping session.
I thought I could just talk to myself about that.
The one question that kept coming up to me when I sent
someone to you, I didn't realizeyou can do Zoom.
I thought, how cool is that? Because it used to be that you
had buzzers in your hands and then the eye movement thing with
the fingers bugged me so much that they removed that piece.
(01:27):
But when you said you could do it Zoom, how does that work
differently than being in person?
It's it's so the pandemic surprised me.
I thought for sure there's no way this is going to translate
over Zoom. But I mean, everyone's in
distress. I'll try and it works the same.
And now there are different systems of people who are like,
(01:48):
I love being in person, like we are all bonding mammals, right?
We we need and, and that's why sometimes talk therapy, even if
it doesn't feel like it's healing from the bottom up, it's
still like being with another person who is holding presents
for you can still be healing. For me, it was healing because I
got it out of my own head and atleast it was verbalized, which
(02:10):
helped me kind of put puzzle, the puzzle pieces together.
Yes, versus trying to do it we. Do it like a brain dump.
Yeah, you. Got to take it.
And get out of. It so how but yes the tap.
Tap on the desk. Do they?
So it is I mean and you can use bilateral stimulation anytime.
So therefore there are differentprograms for eye movement that
you can pop up on the on the Zoom call and the most popular
(02:32):
in my in my practice is tapping and and do you?
I have looked into tapping, but I don't, again, I feel like I'm
doing it wrong. So, but I've, I've watched
people do all the tapping and I love the idea of it.
And I do tap myself sometimes, yeah.
And I try to say some things andthen I'm like, what if I'm
telling my body the wrong thing?Like I shouldn't do this without
(02:55):
a professional body. Well, so, so there's EFT
tapping, which is you can searchit up on YouTube and there's
different acupressure points that you tap that can help what
we say down regulate your nervous system.
It's really just amping up your parasympathy.
There is something about that, that motion, that beat or
whatever on your, on your body, I don't know.
(03:17):
Well, so for from an EMDR perspective, when when we do
bilateral stimulation tapping for processing, it's right and
left. And you can do butterfly taps
where you just cross your hands over your chest and you tap
right, left, right, left. I'm not.
Going out like MVO, right? Or whichever version it's part.
(03:38):
Of why it works because it's, it's, it's almost like the CBT
stuff, right? Where it's like, put yourself in
the here and now versus in your head with that memory.
Or it's, it is absolutely tryingto stay present with the body so
you don't go into disassociation.
But it is, it's, it's so naturalfor us.
And that that's not the only wayyou can tap the sides of your
(03:59):
knees if you, if you want to tryit that way.
So I have some people who will go into stressful business
meetings and underneath the table, they're tapping right,
left on, on the sides of their knees or even your feet back and
forth. Yeah.
Well, if they're in a meeting, use that example and they're
tapping what? What does that do?
Just make them focus more on their body or like how do you
have a meeting and doing that too?
(04:20):
Or is that just prior I'm? Doing it right now Laci and I'm.
Thinking I'm gonna, I can see. It in your eyes.
I'm doing. It I'm so better.
Than others. You have no idea what's
happening under this signal. To be extremely technical, if
that's that what you want, yes. So in our autonomic nervous
system, we have two branches, the parasympathetic, which is
(04:42):
our brakes, our calming system and we have the sympathetic,
which is the gas that gets us moving and into a stress state.
And sometimes we need that rightto work out or engage like even
even right now, right? Like, we have a sympathetic
parasympathetic balance as we'retalking, and the bilateral
stimulation helps increase your parasympathetic signals in your
(05:06):
body. And when you think about it,
that's the way we sway a baby when we're trying to calm them
down right, left, right. Swaddling really tight.
And going back and forth right and balancing that right and
left or when we go for a walk and we feel better afterwards,
it's because we're balancing that right and left sides of our
bodies. And and so that is technically
(05:26):
why it's helpful. In a session, like one session
would be something like you justdid with Laci where she closes
her eyes and she's imagining theevent and what are those
feelings and it's talking her through the memory of it,
something like that. But in in another session, it
could be, are you telling, are you talking about the trauma
(05:49):
while you're tapping or is it all in one session?
You do all of it. Good question.
So when when we set up a target,which flying would be a target
or my car accident would be a target, we set up the, the
specific memory. So I would say, OK, so bring me
back like bring me in your head,like tell me exactly where that
(06:09):
moment was, where it was the worst.
And most everyone has an answer.And then we ask what is your
belief about yourself and that memory, which is highlights that
maladaptive memory network and then how, which feelings are
coming up and, and how, how intense it is on a zero to 10.
(06:31):
And so there's a really specificformat that we go through for
every target. And so, and all we're looking is
for that, that number to decrease.
So, and, and sometimes that means that if someone's at an 8,
they only get to a 7.5 that day.But sometimes people hit a zero
(06:51):
like that. The most beautiful part about it
to me, I mean, it's so I'm obsessed with this model because
of, I've seen thousands of people find healing from it.
But is that we not only identifywhat the trauma is, but what the
belief is that you want instead.So instead of I'm not safe, it's
(07:12):
I'm OK, or I'm safe or I've got this.
And that's so the, that belief is what we call the negative
cognition. And we also find the positive
cognition at the same time and how true that is.
So it's clearing that target, but then moving over into the
safety aspect and that positive belief and how true it is.
(07:33):
And what's so cool about once it's at a zero, when you start
working on that positive cognition, someone could say,
well, I only believe that a three on a one to seven, I'm
like, OK, well, what's a three about?
And we start to work on the three.
And that's usually like a sliverthat's left.
And so once someone is a zero and then everything that
(07:53):
positive cognition is fully true, that's that's when I see
someone integrate and their their symptoms don't come back.
Our audience is an audience of grievers and they've suffered
loss. Do you have in your practice, do
you see a lot of clients that are dealing with a loss like
(08:16):
ours? Certainly, I mean EMDR is really
good to help with what happened and any thinking, feeling,
sensing as a part of that traumatic experience.
And then grief, as we know, is you see, stages, you see.
(08:41):
Well, it's a lifelong thing. Absolutely it is, but.
You can get it from A10 to A2. You can except for those moments
when it hits you like A10 and there's no, I don't think that
ever changes. That's the love coming back for
a minute, you know? And it also can be like I did
the EMDR and I was great for a long time, had no more.
(09:02):
I still don't have panic attacks.
Which is. A great thing I have anxiety,
but I don't have panic attacks because that's the thing that
healed the most which is the most debilitating.
You think you're going to die oryou're having a heart attack.
And at my age now, that can be athing.
So you're like, is that a panic attack or is that having good
health? Why is this doing this?
But I thought maybe now since there's a new attachment, it's
(09:24):
flying is the next thing. I was like, Oh my God, this is
ever going to end. But as Whitney said it, it's a
lifelong. Thing, the grief part of it is
for sure, but the trauma part, it sounds like you were saying
the airplane was a part. They were all targets, but they
had the same belief underneath of I'm not safe.
(09:44):
I'm only going to be safe if everything's perfect.
I'm only going to be safe if everything's clean.
I'm only going to be safe if I take a car instead of a plane.
It's the same belief. So she could have gone deeper
and then the airplane wouldn't have come.
Up or come back, or you could come back and address that
particular piece of it. Yeah, because just like with the
(10:05):
parts work, when I named the hurt part, the hurt part is the
one that holds the belief. And so when I when I work with
people who have been widowed or I have, I have a dear friend of
mine who just lost her five yearold son.
And I know, I know, I know. It's.
It has been and it's been. Unthinkable.
Yeah, yeah. I just love them so much and I'm
(10:26):
with them. And it is survivors guilt comes
up a lot, right? Like a belief is it's my fault
that I lived. And so that's a target.
And so anything that you can trace to belief can be a target
and someone can find the relief of desensitizing the charge or
(10:47):
the trigger around that. Does insurance typically cover
EMDR or it just varies? Good question.
It can the, you know, the trickything, there's a, there's a lot
happening politically with, withinsurance and, and, and
clinicians because the insurancecompanies will pay a fraction of
of what our market rate is. And so it is.
(11:09):
They will cover EMDR for sure. Like a lot of therapists, they
don't. They don't take insurance, Yeah.
And, and I think it and it's largely because our training is
so expensive and that is just the basic that doesn't include
EMDR training, advanced EMDR training, any of that.
(11:29):
And so I think that it is, it's really hard for therapists as a
whole to figure out how to make a living while also offering
people those benefits while alsomaking it accessible to to
everyone because everyone deserves mental health care.
And so it's a, it's in a sticky spot right now.
(11:50):
Does it work on children? Like what age?
Oh, yeah. Can you, You know, because we do
have some listeners with young children and they lost their
father and, you know, they're looking for help, you know,
anywhere they can get it. So I was just curious.
Yeah, you can do it on work withchildren for sure.
It's it's, it's certainly more complicated in that sense
(12:13):
because you you want to be so careful when you're working with
developing brains. And so I'd say that most
clinicians are on the cautious side and take it take more of a
play therapy approach. And, and I've seen effective MDR
in children. And there's just different,
different ways that we shift thework, for example.
(12:35):
So like if they're not able to access the memory and they're
like, you know, I really don't feel a lot around that all, even
though all the signs point to itbeing we both have.
Kids like that. OK, OK, our.
Youngest or my youngest and yourson who were four and six.
They pretend, they say they don't really remember.
(12:56):
And some. People go, I'm sure they don't
remember because they were 4:00 and 6:00 and you're like my. 12
year old said he didn't really remember stuff and I was like.
Yeah, it was. In their sentence, they'll.
Remember something like they'll remember something at the same
time frame that's so insignificant.
So you're like, I know you do protection, but you can't tell
(13:17):
them that because you don't like, you've got to be so
careful. Their nervous system is telling
you I'm not ready, right? And so so how do you work?
Around that, let's say you have a patient that you can tell
they're not ready. They do remember, but they
don't. Yeah, I think you, you, you
still work on improving the quality of their life.
(13:39):
So whichever ways they're willing to open up and try
different things and experiment or, and, and sometimes you'll be
able to see what the protector is and sometimes there are
several and maybe bring some mindfulness around that.
And as we know that going through different life events
(14:00):
brings up earlier stuff, right? And so maybe, you know, when I,
if I hadn't worked on that car accident and then my 13 year old
starts driving in three years, like I'd be maybe having a panic
attack thinking about him driving, right.
And so it's there's no exact science related to when someone
(14:22):
is ready, if they'll respond to it.
It's cracking the coconut, whichis one of one of my mentors said
of like you, you try one aspect,the coconut doesn't crack, you
try another. Like you just have to get really
creative. That's more of the artistic side
of of doing this work like if. We were going to look for
someone who does EMDR and you want the best one because this
(14:44):
is important. What would you look for?
I'm a little biased. I want to hear well your.
Expert opinion. Yeah.
Like when my friend is, my friend who lost her son is I
desperately need someone. Like, what do I do?
And I, I am looking for someone who does not consider themselves
(15:07):
the knower where they are in a power over stance, believing
that they're going to analyze and heal you and that it's up to
them. No way.
I think so. I think that there's a level of,
of knowing that it is absolutelya collaborative process that it
is power with, which is a huge thing that I'm just advocating
(15:28):
so much for now is that our culture's in a power over power
under dynamic and that is not going to get us anywhere.
It is absolutely power with and it's, and everyone deserves
basic decency and respect and kindness.
And, and I think that you can feel that when you're talking
with someone. So that's the first thing that I
look for. And, and, and truly when when
(15:49):
you're going into therapy with someone, the relationship and
your ability to build trust and rapport and safety is one of the
biggest indicators of any of it working, no matter which model
you choose, right. So then I would look for if
someone has done their own therapy.
I know plenty of people, plenty of clinicians who have never
done their own work, and I cannot imagine that's why I only
(16:12):
have. Women deliver my babies.
I don't, I mean nothing against male gynecologists, but I
wanted, I want someone who also has a Hoo ha.
Look at a Hoo ha. You're on to something.
I mean, yes. There's a saying you're not
wrong. You're not wrong.
Hilarious. No, I it makes perfect sense
because you've seen, like you said earlier, you've sat on both
(16:32):
sides, so you know what your client is going through and you
also know how beneficial the work can be.
Yeah, on a personal level. So it makes a huge difference.
Yeah, and I know. What I'm asking them to do
right? I know the price, the
exhaustion, the the feeling likeyou're zapped after a session
because you just did a big release and you you can't do
(16:57):
anything else for that day. I mean, there are some people
who have gone through extraordinary traumas and after
those release sessions, like they're pretty tired, right?
I came. Out of my first session, ETT.
Like in a daze. Yeah.
Like I didn't know where I was, what day it was, what the rest
(17:17):
of my day looked like. I was so out of it after those
sessions. It was bizarre.
You need a nap. Mine used to tell me to go take
a nap now and I literally would take it as a script.
Yeah. My script says I have to go take
a nap and I've been trying to like give that to myself even
now. And we're all so accomplishment
oriented in this society. I the other day I did, I don't
(17:38):
know why it just flew out of my mouth, but this one woman, I
could tell she was very big intowhat's your career and this and
that. And I was feeling judged.
And she said, well, what do you do?
And I said, as little as I can get away with.
I love it. I love that.
And this is the second time I'vesaid this to a person, but this
my friend that was sitting therecould not stop laughing and she
kept pressing. She said no really.
(17:59):
And I said no. I mean really, I am doing as
little as I can get away with. Let me tell you the shows I've
been watching because I felt judged and I thought I am not
having it and I get. Tired of explaining it.
I was literally just explaining it to someone the other day, a
friend who was just like, well, why haven't you like, done this,
(18:19):
this and this Yeah. And I'm like, look, I mean, I'm,
I have a fiance, I'm in a new partner, I have a new partner.
It's great. But I'm still raising my kids by
myself. I mean, I'm still like parenting
those 3 grieving children. I've still lost my husband.
I'm still carrying all that around.
I love my partner. He's super helpful.
But I think people think everything's all back to normal
(18:42):
you. Got a new person?
Everything's so easy for me now because I have Brendan and I'm
like, yeah, it's better. I mean, he's great, but it's a
lot of things haven't changed. And I think it's easier for
others to just assume because, well, first of all, everyone's
thinking about themselves 1st and that's natural.
But I get so tired of having to explain like, hey, I haven't
(19:05):
gotten to this, this and this because I'm still handling all
the finances for myself and my three kids, my three kids, all
the college tuitions, all the travel for them, all the this,
that, all the medical, all the things I'm still doing
everything for my family. And you just get tired of
explaining it. Yeah, sometimes you just want to
(19:25):
be like, yeah, I'm just, you know, binge watching the
Diplomat, you know? Well, in addition, you're.
Taking on him and his family situation, right?
So it's actually more. Work.
I found it was more work being with someone.
It is. At times it is because we're
blending. He has a teenage daughter.
We're blending our families. So yeah.
But, I mean, you just get tired of explaining like, hey, you
(19:47):
know, I went through a lot. I'm still going through a lot.
My kids are still going through a lot.
Not the same. I had someone the other night
say, oh, yeah, all these different kinds of grief.
And I know, you know, you lost Frank.
And now I sort of get it now that I'm an empty nester.
I was like wait. What?
Nope. I'm like.
(20:09):
It's like when someone says thatthey know what it's like to have
a child because they have a dog.Oh, they.
Say they're a golf widow. A golf widow.
I'm like, oh, that's so. Sad.
Always gracious about it, but I couldn't get over the like.
Now that I'm an empty nesting, Ikind of get what you went
through. I was like, OK.
That's why I've decided I'm not going to explain anymore because
and to come up with a thing that's kind of funny.
(20:32):
I thought I'm going to just say say what I as little as that I
can get away with because it wasn't telling her how much I'm
acknowledging she was this big time attorney and I was she was
still going to look at me that way and I could tell it's.
Not the. Stuff it's not.
The real It's funny how the greatest gift that has come from
all of this and the therapy in particular highlighted is what
(20:56):
is really important to me like the rest of it is such a waste
of time and energy. How much of my life did I waste
in my young years on things thatdid not matter.
So the real gift and things likethis that happen if you do the
work, grief work that we call it, is that you stop worrying
(21:17):
about what other people think. They're going to think what
they're going to think no matterwhat.
Well, that. Goes back to one of those
beliefs that can create a targetor whatever.
I'm not good enough or I'm not worthy.
And then you get a weird triggerwhere you don't go to parties
because you're afraid someone's and then you become but I now.
Look at someone like that and I'm like, how sad.
You know what? Like I'm analyzing that person
(21:39):
now. Like, well, what's her trauma
that she can only feel good about herself if she's bragging
about her law practice or whenever?
In your bag and just anybody that you like.
Dude, you need don't. Send me that one.
Meet my friend. Katie, it's like when?
(22:00):
We get hooked in someone elses experience, right, And I'm I'm
one thing that is is that I've just this whole year been
working towards is just as much as I can be in non judgement
because it's her protectors thatare showing up.
And so if I'm not in an analyzing way, but being like,
whoa, that didn't feel right. I feel like I just came up
against a protector and are my parts coming out to show to
(22:24):
prove myself or to to like use humor or whatever.
I use to try to navigate that. Social dynamics are so tricky,
but one thing that I really appreciate about this work it
it's so healing that I've noticed like over thousands of
times that there are three things that rise from people
(22:44):
clearing targets. People remember their wholeness,
they return to love and compassion all the whole time.
Like those are the three common denominators.
And it is so beautiful to see how we can all have a wide range
of beliefs and a ways of being in the world.
And it's these three things thatwe all return to as humans,
(23:08):
which is it's really beautiful. And you?
Well, I. Love what you said Katie, about
it's already it's I can see thatit's going to color how I handle
other people, even though I haven't ever done EMDR.
Just the idea of there are triggers that create a surge and
like, why did that? So I'm going to notice more
like, oh, this, I'm surging. Why?
(23:30):
What's the trigger? Why did I, Why is that bothering
me? Or why do I feel the need to
hurry up and fix instead of justlet them be sad, you know?
So I feel like I'm already gonnabe a better person, so thank
you, of course. And Richard Schwartz's work at
the IFS, the self therapy, he designed it so that people can
(23:51):
do it on their own. Yeah.
So any of his work is so helpfulbecause you can find the part
connected to this, Right? Right.
And then just be mindful of it so.
People could Google Richard Schwartz.
Yeah, watch inside out. Well, let me ask.
This is the, to me one of the most important.
Are you taking new clients and if so, how do they reach you?
So I have a website itskatiecummingslpc.com and I
(24:15):
have one or two spots right now and then a wait list if if
there's but. Put it on our socials so
everyone and at the end of in our notes for this episode so
that you can find her. Thank you.
This has been so I thank you foryour time.
I want to dive more into this. I want to hang.
Out all the time is what I want that.
Is so awesome. There's so many different ways
(24:37):
that you can go through this grief journey and we hope that
today we've shown you a couple because we touched on a couple
of different things all through EMDR.
But we're just hopeful that you can find something that works
for you. And if one thing doesn't work,
try something different because it depends on where you are in
your own trauma, what's going towork and what what you're ready
(25:00):
for, what your nervous system isready for.
And we also. Have our insider group?
Yes. We want to encourage you if you
are looking for a space to ask more questions or to connect
with other widows and widowers, we have a Facebook group called
Every Widow Thing Insiders. We would love for you to join
that and obviously we're available through social media.
(25:22):
Just DMS. We want to help you move
forward. There is a way, there is light.
Keep going. We believe in you, we love you,
and we'll be back on another episode soon.
Bye bye.
You found us. I'm glad you did, but I'm so
sorry you had to. The good news is we got you.
So come sit in our widow circle where trauma meets humor and we
remind you that you can not onlysurvive, but thrive.
This is every widow thing. We were getting so much great
information from EMDR specialistKatie Cummings that we had to
(00:22):
keep going. Welcome back to the
conversation. This is Part 2 When.
You were talking about how hard the bottom up that kind of work
is. It is no joke.
It's easier to just go in the therapist office and bitch about
the election or your neighbors or it's easier to go and do that
kind of therapy than what we're talking about where you're
(00:43):
actually reliving these like really horrific moment.
It's easy to fake it, like you just go in and talk about what
was bothering you that day and and never really dive down deep
into what the belief is around why that got you worked up so.
And I've even had therapists that couldn't figure that out
though either. So it was frustrating because
(01:03):
you felt like you were just going and paying for that hour
and it was just a dumping session.
I thought I could just talk to myself about that.
The one question that kept coming up to me when I sent
someone to you, I didn't realizeyou can do Zoom.
I thought, how cool is that? Because it used to be that you
had buzzers in your hands and then the eye movement thing with
the fingers bugged me so much that they removed that piece.
(01:27):
But when you said you could do it Zoom, how does that work
differently than being in person?
It's it's so the pandemic surprised me.
I thought for sure there's no way this is going to translate
over Zoom. But I mean, everyone's in
distress. I'll try and it works the same.
And now there are different systems of people who are like,
(01:48):
I love being in person, like we are all bonding mammals, right?
We we need and, and that's why sometimes talk therapy, even if
it doesn't feel like it's healing from the bottom up, it's
still like being with another person who is holding presents
for you can still be healing. For me, it was healing because I
got it out of my own head and atleast it was verbalized, which
(02:10):
helped me kind of put puzzle, the puzzle pieces together.
Yes, versus trying to do it we. Do it like a brain dump.
Yeah, you. Got to take it.
And get out of. It so how but yes the tap.
Tap on the desk. Do they?
So it is I mean and you can use bilateral stimulation anytime.
So therefore there are differentprograms for eye movement that
you can pop up on the on the Zoom call and the most popular
(02:32):
in my in my practice is tapping and and do you?
I have looked into tapping, but I don't, again, I feel like I'm
doing it wrong. So, but I've, I've watched
people do all the tapping and I love the idea of it.
And I do tap myself sometimes, yeah.
And I try to say some things andthen I'm like, what if I'm
telling my body the wrong thing?Like I shouldn't do this without
(02:55):
a professional body. Well, so, so there's EFT
tapping, which is you can searchit up on YouTube and there's
different acupressure points that you tap that can help what
we say down regulate your nervous system.
It's really just amping up your parasympathy.
There is something about that, that motion, that beat or
whatever on your, on your body, I don't know.
(03:17):
Well, so for from an EMDR perspective, when when we do
bilateral stimulation tapping for processing, it's right and
left. And you can do butterfly taps
where you just cross your hands over your chest and you tap
right, left, right, left. I'm not.
Going out like MVO, right? Or whichever version it's part.
(03:38):
Of why it works because it's, it's, it's almost like the CBT
stuff, right? Where it's like, put yourself in
the here and now versus in your head with that memory.
Or it's, it is absolutely tryingto stay present with the body so
you don't go into disassociation.
But it is, it's, it's so naturalfor us.
And that that's not the only wayyou can tap the sides of your
(03:59):
knees if you, if you want to tryit that way.
So I have some people who will go into stressful business
meetings and underneath the table, they're tapping right,
left on, on the sides of their knees or even your feet back and
forth. Yeah.
Well, if they're in a meeting, use that example and they're
tapping what? What does that do?
Just make them focus more on their body or like how do you
have a meeting and doing that too?
(04:20):
Or is that just prior I'm? Doing it right now Laci and I'm.
Thinking I'm gonna, I can see. It in your eyes.
I'm doing. It I'm so better.
Than others. You have no idea what's
happening under this signal. To be extremely technical, if
that's that what you want, yes. So in our autonomic nervous
system, we have two branches, the parasympathetic, which is
(04:42):
our brakes, our calming system and we have the sympathetic,
which is the gas that gets us moving and into a stress state.
And sometimes we need that rightto work out or engage like even
even right now, right? Like, we have a sympathetic
parasympathetic balance as we'retalking, and the bilateral
stimulation helps increase your parasympathetic signals in your
(05:06):
body. And when you think about it,
that's the way we sway a baby when we're trying to calm them
down right, left, right. Swaddling really tight.
And going back and forth right and balancing that right and
left or when we go for a walk and we feel better afterwards,
it's because we're balancing that right and left sides of our
bodies. And and so that is technically
(05:26):
why it's helpful. In a session, like one session
would be something like you justdid with Laci where she closes
her eyes and she's imagining theevent and what are those
feelings and it's talking her through the memory of it,
something like that. But in in another session, it
could be, are you telling, are you talking about the trauma
(05:49):
while you're tapping or is it all in one session?
You do all of it. Good question.
So when when we set up a target,which flying would be a target
or my car accident would be a target, we set up the, the
specific memory. So I would say, OK, so bring me
back like bring me in your head,like tell me exactly where that
(06:09):
moment was, where it was the worst.
And most everyone has an answer.And then we ask what is your
belief about yourself and that memory, which is highlights that
maladaptive memory network and then how, which feelings are
coming up and, and how, how intense it is on a zero to 10.
(06:31):
And so there's a really specificformat that we go through for
every target. And so, and all we're looking is
for that, that number to decrease.
So, and, and sometimes that means that if someone's at an 8,
they only get to a 7.5 that day.But sometimes people hit a zero
(06:51):
like that. The most beautiful part about it
to me, I mean, it's so I'm obsessed with this model because
of, I've seen thousands of people find healing from it.
But is that we not only identifywhat the trauma is, but what the
belief is that you want instead.So instead of I'm not safe, it's
(07:12):
I'm OK, or I'm safe or I've got this.
And that's so the, that belief is what we call the negative
cognition. And we also find the positive
cognition at the same time and how true that is.
So it's clearing that target, but then moving over into the
safety aspect and that positive belief and how true it is.
(07:33):
And what's so cool about once it's at a zero, when you start
working on that positive cognition, someone could say,
well, I only believe that a three on a one to seven, I'm
like, OK, well, what's a three about?
And we start to work on the three.
And that's usually like a sliverthat's left.
And so once someone is a zero and then everything that
(07:53):
positive cognition is fully true, that's that's when I see
someone integrate and their their symptoms don't come back.
Our audience is an audience of grievers and they've suffered
loss. Do you have in your practice, do
you see a lot of clients that are dealing with a loss like
(08:16):
ours? Certainly, I mean EMDR is really
good to help with what happened and any thinking, feeling,
sensing as a part of that traumatic experience.
And then grief, as we know, is you see, stages, you see.
(08:41):
Well, it's a lifelong thing. Absolutely it is, but.
You can get it from A10 to A2. You can except for those moments
when it hits you like A10 and there's no, I don't think that
ever changes. That's the love coming back for
a minute, you know? And it also can be like I did
the EMDR and I was great for a long time, had no more.
(09:02):
I still don't have panic attacks.
Which is. A great thing I have anxiety,
but I don't have panic attacks because that's the thing that
healed the most which is the most debilitating.
You think you're going to die oryou're having a heart attack.
And at my age now, that can be athing.
So you're like, is that a panic attack or is that having good
health? Why is this doing this?
But I thought maybe now since there's a new attachment, it's
(09:24):
flying is the next thing. I was like, Oh my God, this is
ever going to end. But as Whitney said it, it's a
lifelong. Thing, the grief part of it is
for sure, but the trauma part, it sounds like you were saying
the airplane was a part. They were all targets, but they
had the same belief underneath of I'm not safe.
(09:44):
I'm only going to be safe if everything's perfect.
I'm only going to be safe if everything's clean.
I'm only going to be safe if I take a car instead of a plane.
It's the same belief. So she could have gone deeper
and then the airplane wouldn't have come.
Up or come back, or you could come back and address that
particular piece of it. Yeah, because just like with the
(10:05):
parts work, when I named the hurt part, the hurt part is the
one that holds the belief. And so when I when I work with
people who have been widowed or I have, I have a dear friend of
mine who just lost her five yearold son.
And I know, I know, I know. It's.
It has been and it's been. Unthinkable.
Yeah, yeah. I just love them so much and I'm
(10:26):
with them. And it is survivors guilt comes
up a lot, right? Like a belief is it's my fault
that I lived. And so that's a target.
And so anything that you can trace to belief can be a target
and someone can find the relief of desensitizing the charge or
(10:47):
the trigger around that. Does insurance typically cover
EMDR or it just varies? Good question.
It can the, you know, the trickything, there's a, there's a lot
happening politically with, withinsurance and, and, and
clinicians because the insurancecompanies will pay a fraction of
of what our market rate is. And so it is.
(11:09):
They will cover EMDR for sure. Like a lot of therapists, they
don't. They don't take insurance, Yeah.
And, and I think it and it's largely because our training is
so expensive and that is just the basic that doesn't include
EMDR training, advanced EMDR training, any of that.
(11:29):
And so I think that it is, it's really hard for therapists as a
whole to figure out how to make a living while also offering
people those benefits while alsomaking it accessible to to
everyone because everyone deserves mental health care.
And so it's a, it's in a sticky spot right now.
(11:50):
Does it work on children? Like what age?
Oh, yeah. Can you, You know, because we do
have some listeners with young children and they lost their
father and, you know, they're looking for help, you know,
anywhere they can get it. So I was just curious.
Yeah, you can do it on work withchildren for sure.
It's it's, it's certainly more complicated in that sense
(12:13):
because you you want to be so careful when you're working with
developing brains. And so I'd say that most
clinicians are on the cautious side and take it take more of a
play therapy approach. And, and I've seen effective MDR
in children. And there's just different,
different ways that we shift thework, for example.
(12:35):
So like if they're not able to access the memory and they're
like, you know, I really don't feel a lot around that all, even
though all the signs point to itbeing we both have.
Kids like that. OK, OK, our.
Youngest or my youngest and yourson who were four and six.
They pretend, they say they don't really remember.
(12:56):
And some. People go, I'm sure they don't
remember because they were 4:00 and 6:00 and you're like my. 12
year old said he didn't really remember stuff and I was like.
Yeah, it was. In their sentence, they'll.
Remember something like they'll remember something at the same
time frame that's so insignificant.
So you're like, I know you do protection, but you can't tell
(13:17):
them that because you don't like, you've got to be so
careful. Their nervous system is telling
you I'm not ready, right? And so so how do you work?
Around that, let's say you have a patient that you can tell
they're not ready. They do remember, but they
don't. Yeah, I think you, you, you
still work on improving the quality of their life.
(13:39):
So whichever ways they're willing to open up and try
different things and experiment or, and, and sometimes you'll be
able to see what the protector is and sometimes there are
several and maybe bring some mindfulness around that.
And as we know that going through different life events
(14:00):
brings up earlier stuff, right? And so maybe, you know, when I,
if I hadn't worked on that car accident and then my 13 year old
starts driving in three years, like I'd be maybe having a panic
attack thinking about him driving, right.
And so it's there's no exact science related to when someone
(14:22):
is ready, if they'll respond to it.
It's cracking the coconut, whichis one of one of my mentors said
of like you, you try one aspect,the coconut doesn't crack, you
try another. Like you just have to get really
creative. That's more of the artistic side
of of doing this work like if. We were going to look for
someone who does EMDR and you want the best one because this
(14:44):
is important. What would you look for?
I'm a little biased. I want to hear well your.
Expert opinion. Yeah.
Like when my friend is, my friend who lost her son is I
desperately need someone. Like, what do I do?
And I, I am looking for someone who does not consider themselves
(15:07):
the knower where they are in a power over stance, believing
that they're going to analyze and heal you and that it's up to
them. No way.
I think so. I think that there's a level of,
of knowing that it is absolutelya collaborative process that it
is power with, which is a huge thing that I'm just advocating
(15:28):
so much for now is that our culture's in a power over power
under dynamic and that is not going to get us anywhere.
It is absolutely power with and it's, and everyone deserves
basic decency and respect and kindness.
And, and I think that you can feel that when you're talking
with someone. So that's the first thing that I
look for. And, and, and truly when when
(15:49):
you're going into therapy with someone, the relationship and
your ability to build trust and rapport and safety is one of the
biggest indicators of any of it working, no matter which model
you choose, right. So then I would look for if
someone has done their own therapy.
I know plenty of people, plenty of clinicians who have never
done their own work, and I cannot imagine that's why I only
(16:12):
have. Women deliver my babies.
I don't, I mean nothing against male gynecologists, but I
wanted, I want someone who also has a Hoo ha.
Look at a Hoo ha. You're on to something.
I mean, yes. There's a saying you're not
wrong. You're not wrong.
Hilarious. No, I it makes perfect sense
because you've seen, like you said earlier, you've sat on both
(16:32):
sides, so you know what your client is going through and you
also know how beneficial the work can be.
Yeah, on a personal level. So it makes a huge difference.
Yeah, and I know. What I'm asking them to do
right? I know the price, the
exhaustion, the the feeling likeyou're zapped after a session
because you just did a big release and you you can't do
(16:57):
anything else for that day. I mean, there are some people
who have gone through extraordinary traumas and after
those release sessions, like they're pretty tired, right?
I came. Out of my first session, ETT.
Like in a daze. Yeah.
Like I didn't know where I was, what day it was, what the rest
(17:17):
of my day looked like. I was so out of it after those
sessions. It was bizarre.
You need a nap. Mine used to tell me to go take
a nap now and I literally would take it as a script.
Yeah. My script says I have to go take
a nap and I've been trying to like give that to myself even
now. And we're all so accomplishment
oriented in this society. I the other day I did, I don't
(17:38):
know why it just flew out of my mouth, but this one woman, I
could tell she was very big intowhat's your career and this and
that. And I was feeling judged.
And she said, well, what do you do?
And I said, as little as I can get away with.
I love it. I love that.
And this is the second time I'vesaid this to a person, but this
my friend that was sitting therecould not stop laughing and she
kept pressing. She said no really.
(17:59):
And I said no. I mean really, I am doing as
little as I can get away with. Let me tell you the shows I've
been watching because I felt judged and I thought I am not
having it and I get. Tired of explaining it.
I was literally just explaining it to someone the other day, a
friend who was just like, well, why haven't you like, done this,
(18:19):
this and this Yeah. And I'm like, look, I mean, I'm,
I have a fiance, I'm in a new partner, I have a new partner.
It's great. But I'm still raising my kids by
myself. I mean, I'm still like parenting
those 3 grieving children. I've still lost my husband.
I'm still carrying all that around.
I love my partner. He's super helpful.
But I think people think everything's all back to normal
(18:42):
you. Got a new person?
Everything's so easy for me now because I have Brendan and I'm
like, yeah, it's better. I mean, he's great, but it's a
lot of things haven't changed. And I think it's easier for
others to just assume because, well, first of all, everyone's
thinking about themselves 1st and that's natural.
But I get so tired of having to explain like, hey, I haven't
(19:05):
gotten to this, this and this because I'm still handling all
the finances for myself and my three kids, my three kids, all
the college tuitions, all the travel for them, all the this,
that, all the medical, all the things I'm still doing
everything for my family. And you just get tired of
explaining it. Yeah, sometimes you just want to
(19:25):
be like, yeah, I'm just, you know, binge watching the
Diplomat, you know? Well, in addition, you're.
Taking on him and his family situation, right?
So it's actually more. Work.
I found it was more work being with someone.
It is. At times it is because we're
blending. He has a teenage daughter.
We're blending our families. So yeah.
But, I mean, you just get tired of explaining like, hey, you
(19:47):
know, I went through a lot. I'm still going through a lot.
My kids are still going through a lot.
Not the same. I had someone the other night
say, oh, yeah, all these different kinds of grief.
And I know, you know, you lost Frank.
And now I sort of get it now that I'm an empty nester.
I was like wait. What?
Nope. I'm like.
(20:09):
It's like when someone says thatthey know what it's like to have
a child because they have a dog.Oh, they.
Say they're a golf widow. A golf widow.
I'm like, oh, that's so. Sad.
Always gracious about it, but I couldn't get over the like.
Now that I'm an empty nesting, Ikind of get what you went
through. I was like, OK.
That's why I've decided I'm not going to explain anymore because
and to come up with a thing that's kind of funny.
(20:32):
I thought I'm going to just say say what I as little as that I
can get away with because it wasn't telling her how much I'm
acknowledging she was this big time attorney and I was she was
still going to look at me that way and I could tell it's.
Not the. Stuff it's not.
The real It's funny how the greatest gift that has come from
all of this and the therapy in particular highlighted is what
(20:56):
is really important to me like the rest of it is such a waste
of time and energy. How much of my life did I waste
in my young years on things thatdid not matter.
So the real gift and things likethis that happen if you do the
work, grief work that we call it, is that you stop worrying
(21:17):
about what other people think. They're going to think what
they're going to think no matterwhat.
Well, that. Goes back to one of those
beliefs that can create a targetor whatever.
I'm not good enough or I'm not worthy.
And then you get a weird triggerwhere you don't go to parties
because you're afraid someone's and then you become but I now.
Look at someone like that and I'm like, how sad.
You know what? Like I'm analyzing that person
(21:39):
now. Like, well, what's her trauma
that she can only feel good about herself if she's bragging
about her law practice or whenever?
In your bag and just anybody that you like.
Dude, you need don't. Send me that one.
Meet my friend. Katie, it's like when?
(22:00):
We get hooked in someone elses experience, right, And I'm I'm
one thing that is is that I've just this whole year been
working towards is just as much as I can be in non judgement
because it's her protectors thatare showing up.
And so if I'm not in an analyzing way, but being like,
whoa, that didn't feel right. I feel like I just came up
against a protector and are my parts coming out to show to
(22:24):
prove myself or to to like use humor or whatever.
I use to try to navigate that. Social dynamics are so tricky,
but one thing that I really appreciate about this work it
it's so healing that I've noticed like over thousands of
times that there are three things that rise from people
(22:44):
clearing targets. People remember their wholeness,
they return to love and compassion all the whole time.
Like those are the three common denominators.
And it is so beautiful to see how we can all have a wide range
of beliefs and a ways of being in the world.
And it's these three things thatwe all return to as humans,
(23:08):
which is it's really beautiful. And you?
Well, I. Love what you said Katie, about
it's already it's I can see thatit's going to color how I handle
other people, even though I haven't ever done EMDR.
Just the idea of there are triggers that create a surge and
like, why did that? So I'm going to notice more
like, oh, this, I'm surging. Why?
(23:30):
What's the trigger? Why did I, Why is that bothering
me? Or why do I feel the need to
hurry up and fix instead of justlet them be sad, you know?
So I feel like I'm already gonnabe a better person, so thank
you, of course. And Richard Schwartz's work at
the IFS, the self therapy, he designed it so that people can
(23:51):
do it on their own. Yeah.
So any of his work is so helpfulbecause you can find the part
connected to this, Right? Right.
And then just be mindful of it so.
People could Google Richard Schwartz.
Yeah, watch inside out. Well, let me ask.
This is the, to me one of the most important.
Are you taking new clients and if so, how do they reach you?
So I have a website itskatiecummingslpc.com and I
(24:15):
have one or two spots right now and then a wait list if if
there's but. Put it on our socials so
everyone and at the end of in our notes for this episode so
that you can find her. Thank you.
This has been so I thank you foryour time.
I want to dive more into this. I want to hang.
Out all the time is what I want that.
Is so awesome. There's so many different ways
(24:37):
that you can go through this grief journey and we hope that
today we've shown you a couple because we touched on a couple
of different things all through EMDR.
But we're just hopeful that you can find something that works
for you. And if one thing doesn't work,
try something different because it depends on where you are in
your own trauma, what's going towork and what what you're ready
(25:00):
for, what your nervous system isready for.
And we also. Have our insider group?
Yes. We want to encourage you if you
are looking for a space to ask more questions or to connect
with other widows and widowers, we have a Facebook group called
Every Widow Thing Insiders. We would love for you to join
that and obviously we're available through social media.
(25:22):
Just DMS. We want to help you move
forward. There is a way, there is light.
Keep going. We believe in you, we love you,
and we'll be back on another episode soon.
Bye bye.
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