Episode 49: From Therapist to Widow: Cheryl Martin's Journey Through Grief

In this informative episode of "Every Widow Thing," Lacey , Whitney, Holly, and Keira speak with special guest Cheryl Martin, a retired grief therapist and recent widow. Together, they explore the complexities of grief, particularly the often-overlooked challenges of the second year after loss. Cheryl shares her personal journey of navigating widowhood and the insights she gained from her professional experience as a grief counselor.

Throughout the conversation, they discuss the importance of empathy, the need for ongoing support, and the reality of living with grief long after the initial loss. Cheryl offers valuable tools for coping, including the significance of allowing oneself to feel a range of emotions, the power of community, and the necessity of seeking help when needed.

Join us as we delve into the realities of grief, the importance of remembering our loved ones, and the ways we can support each other through this difficult journey. Whether you're a widow/widower, a friend, or someone looking to understand grief better, this episode is filled with compassion, wisdom, and hope.

Topics Covered:

• ​The challenges of the second year of grief
• ​The importance of empathy and support
• ​Tools for coping with loss
• ​The significance of remembering loved ones
• ​Finding the right therapist and support groups

Don't forget to like, subscribe, and share your thoughts in the comments!

• ​00:00:00 - Introduction and Guest Introduction: Introduction of Cheryl Martin, a retired grief therapist and widow.
• ​00:02:13 - Experiencing Grief as a Therapist vs. a Widow: Cheryl discusses her insights on grief after becoming a widow.
• ​00:04:15 - The Challenge of Second Year Grief: Discussion of the difficulties of the second year of grief.
• ​00:06:19 - The Marathon of Grief: Grief as an ongoing journey.
• ​00:08:39 - The Importance of Remembering Loved Ones: Significance of remembering deceased loved ones.
• ​00:10:11 - Navigating Conversations About Loss: How to approach conversations about deceased loved ones.
• ​00:12:07 - Therapist Tools for Grief: Using therapy background to navigate grief.
• ​00:13:26 - Allowing Grief Emotions to Surface: Importance of expressing all grief emotions.
• ​00:15:33 - Self-Care and Grief: The necessity of self-care during grieving.
• ​00:18:02 - Finding Support Groups: Benefits of joining support groups.
• ​00:21:43 - Choosing the Right Therapist: Advice on finding a suitable therapist.
• ​00:25:40 - The Goal of Therapy: Guiding individuals through their grief journey.
• ​00:28:38 - Books and Resources for Grief: Recommended resources for grief.
• ​00:30:10 - Grounding Techniques in Therapy: Grounding techniques related to EMDR and trauma.
• ​00:34:05 - Understanding Dissociation: Explanation of dissociation during trauma.
• ​00:39:13 - Reliving Trauma in Therapy: Discussion on reliving traumatic events in therapy.
• ​00:41:14 - Navigating Medical Conversations: Challenges of discussing trauma with medical professionals.
• ​00:45:02 - The Role of the Therapist in Grief: Therapist's role in holding space for clients' grief.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Our journey of new beginnings will always honor and rejoice
the past. This is every widow thing.
This is Laci with every widow thing.
And we're here today with Whitney, Holly and Kira.
And we have a special guest, Cheryl Martin.
Welcome, Cheryl, Welcome. Cheryl, Hi.
Glad to be here. We.

(00:20):
Are very glad to have you and I'm going to tell you in Full
disclosure, Cheryl Martin was a grief therapist lastly, but she
was also my grief therapist whenOliver died that first year
before she retired. I'm going to tell you a little
bit about her background and then we're just going to dive in
with some questions. Hope you're ready Cheryl.
I'm ready. Cheryl is a retired licensed
clinical social worker and most recently a grief therapist at my

(00:41):
healing place which is now called the Austin Center for
Grief and loss here in Austin, TX.
She earned her Master of scienceand social work with a focus on
children and families from the University of Texas in Austin.
She spent her entire professional career working in
social services. Prior to Graduate School, she
worked as a case worker in Aid to Families with Dependent
Children, Children and Food stamps, which is now called SNAP

(01:02):
Postgraduate School. She worked in a psychiatric
hospital with adolescents, a residential treatment Center for
latency age children who had been removed from their families
due to abuse and neglect, and finally as a grief counselor for
children and adults, which is how I know her.
She has experience with addiction and the devastation
the disease causes an addict as well As for an addicts family

(01:23):
and friends. She's lived in Central TX for 41
years and sadly she too is a widow.
Her husband Bruce of 52 years died in 2023.
So she's a fairly recent widow and can probably really help us
understand grief in a personal way as well.
She has a daughter, a son-in-lawand six year old granddaughter,
Luna, who's so precious and theyare the lights of her life so.

(01:47):
Welcome, Cheryl. Thank you so much for sharing
your story with us. We're excited.
Lacey has spoken so highly of you the whole time we've known
her. Yeah.
Just so glad you're here today and hopefully you can shed some
light on not necessarily my. Crazy stuff.
Divulge all of Lacey's secrets. How much time do we have you
had? A really good question.

(02:08):
When we were kind of discussing having you on the show, you came
up with a really good question. Well, I was just, I'm find it so
interesting because for so long you were giving therapy to
people with loss and now you area person that has suffered that
same loss. So I was just curious, what have
you noticed in your life as a widow that you didn't realize as

(02:31):
the therapist? OK.
And it's a really good question.Prior to being A and even when I
was as working as a grief therapist, I've had some pretty
significant grief at losses and things in my life.
So it's not unfamiliar with grief.
Since I've been a widow, I wouldn't say I've, it's changed
a lot in terms of what I would be doing with my clients or what

(02:53):
I feel about grief. However, now that I am a widow,
I obviously have more empathy ina different way for people
who've lost their spouses and are partners.
And so I would have some more insight into certain issues or
circumstances that they would bring up and maybe have a
different way to talk with them about it or deal with them.

(03:14):
And I'm thinking in particular of the second year grief, yes,
it is just not talked about enough.
And my clients, I had clients, not just widows, but other
clients as well who talked aboutbeing shocked and distressed
about the second year coming andfeeling worse in the first year.
And I, I didn't disbelieve them for a moment.

(03:37):
I mean, I listened to them. I heard what they said.
They couldn't describe it very well.
I just tried to be there for them.
And to be honest, I didn't quiteunderstand it either.
And now I have lived into the second year and I get it.
Like get it in the way when you walk in somebody else's shoes.
It's, it's a thing. It's a real thing.
And now I have an understanding of why I think it happens.

(03:58):
So that would be a different a difference.
Well, I would love to hear your answer.
What why we've talked about thata lot with the second year being
so much more difficult and we know what we've said, but I'd be
so curious to to hear your insight on that now.
Well, I have a metaphor for that.

(04:20):
It's not scientific, but I'm a runner.
So I, my metaphor comes from, from running a lot.
But in the first year it, you know, of course, what I know and
believe is for one thing, we're in a lot of shock.
You know, we're not taking in everything.
There's all of the, the, the financials, all the business,

(04:41):
all the things that you're trying to take care of in the
beginning that just just you're just running on that you're not
even thinking, feeling that much.
And then and that takes a while to dissipate.
You know, it just comes to you alittle bit in layers of, of how
you're feeling. And so, so some of it's about
not totally taking it all in. So, and here's what I I will

(05:04):
say, this is my metaphor as a runner.
I feel like the first year is like a relay, like a Sprint.
It's like the first part in the leg of the relay.
We're doing everything I just said, you know, and then then
we're going through the the anniversaries, the holidays, the
birthdays, all of these things that just keep coming up one

(05:27):
after the other. And, and finally the big ending
of the year, the year and the big anniversary of the first
year. And, and the focus is, oh, I got
it through that as the leg. That was that relay.
I did it. Oh, now I've got to go to the
next relay. OK, but I can do that.
I can get there and keep going because I know at the end

(05:47):
there's because at the end of the first year, you know, it's
going to feel like some completion that I have done
this. And then I got to that end of
the year and the end of the relays and there was somebody
standing there saying why are you stopping?
The marathon starts now. And for me, it's the reality has
set in. It's not over.

(06:08):
I will do this again and again and again and and taking in the
magnitude of the loss is what I think happens in the second
year. And I and not having the support
anymore. Like people have now moved on
and they think that you have somehow moved on.

(06:29):
So you don't have the support. You're in, you're no longer in
shock. So you're fully in your new
normal and it fucking sucks. And then you don't have anyone
recognizing that anymore, which can be really isolating.
Absolutely, and that is a lot oftimes what brought people to
therapy because they didn't havethat anymore.

(06:51):
They did not have the people. That was another surprise for
many, many people was the peoplethey thought would be there just
consistently supporting them forever or not there.
It's. Clear, we just posted something
the other day to this and a lot of people commented that after
10713 years, I, I only started saying this post that I had seen

(07:13):
that they said he's, I still love him and he's still dead
because people think 13 years later, why are you still
grieving? Well, it doesn't mean that I
don't have good days or weeks ormonths or years even.
And it doesn't mean that there aren't things to look forward
to, but you're still caring and living with it.
And so there to your point, the marathon begins and it's a 13

(07:34):
year marathon 10/7 and in your case, the second year.
So I think I wanted people to see that post and to hear this
from you is that it's, it's something we live with and we
have to educate people that you're not over it.
You never will be over it. Absolutely.
And I, for a while I kept thinking, you know, there's no
talk about the second year it comes.

(07:54):
It's such a shock. And I was talking to a friend of
mine like maybe we need to writea book about.
This I was just thinking that. For you I will.
Cheryl, we. Said that you've had.
Station coming in. She had something she wanted to
do in her next phase of her life.
Well, there you go. Well, I didn't finish my stage.
And then? We said, but who wants to hear

(08:16):
that in the first year that it'sjust going to get worse the
second year? I know you don't.
Hear that trying to protect people, it's certainly in the
beginning, so true. The early months and that first
year you're trying to soften theblow of, you know, hey, look,
we're years out. We're doing fine.
But you don't want to be like that's we.

(08:36):
Just got it ready. Get ready, buckle up.
But they're for. I was just going to say, like I
tell people when they asked for advice, I'm like, check in on
them two years in. Three years in, I got at Toby's
memorial. People wrote little cards,
little postcards were handed outand someone sent me a postcard,

(08:58):
a note about Toby, a memory about Toby five years later.
And it meant so much to me. That's so kind of that person
because. People don't say their name
anymore, like, and because we don't talk so much about grief,
they don't want to say his name because they think it's going to

(09:20):
like what? I forgot that he died.
They think it's going to make you feel sad with her.
Like, wait a minute, my husband said, what are you talking
about? You know, so nobody says
anything. And that again, makes it so hard
for you because like Laci said, they're in my, I talk about, I
think about my husband at least once a day.

(09:41):
And that's also because I talkedto him and really feel like he's
still with us, helping me, you know, for other people to say
his name and give me an opportunity to to talk about him
is such such a gift. But nobody feels like they can
do. Just a misconception that they
think it's going to make you upset if they bring him up.
But to Holly's point, it can bring a little bit of joy to

(10:04):
your day to to realize, oh, maybe somebody else was thinking
about him and remembering him and sharing that with me.
I love hearing stories and last Toby's group of friends.
So Sunday will be 8 years since his death and I was just kind of
reminiscing about it even thoughI don't like I can't help but
not remember the date because itwas very tragic.

(10:26):
And last year I just remember his group of friends sent me.
They were all like had a group text that day and they sent me
some pictures later in the evening and I was like well why
didn't you put me on the text? I was like next time y'all do
that add me to the text. So they were like sharing all
these stories about him and I. Had a similar thing where Frank

(10:47):
played. We called it old man soccer.
It was like 40 and over soccer. And every year on the
anniversary of his death, the soccer team would get together
and have a beer at over at Deep Betty, which is what they used
to do after soccer games. And I would get these texts
like, you know, we had our yearly beer.

(11:08):
We talked about him and it's sort of like you.
I was like, hey, I want to come.I want to come to the the soccer
beer, you know? Where you go?
I mean, have you? I hadn't, I haven't been invited
yet. And maybe, you know, it's 10
years now. Maybe they're not doing it.
Maybe COVID put a hiccup in there.
Well, maybe you should. But maybe that was their space
to just swap soccer, soccer stories.

(11:29):
I don't know. I mean.
But still, if you just showed up30 minutes at towards the end.
Let me ask a question and Cherylhas having been a therapist, how
did that did that help you at all when you went through the
loss of your husband at all? I know you've had your own grief
journey before the loss of Bruce, but did it help you at

(11:51):
all because you had the tools inyour toolboxes?
Used to tell me to have my toolsready when I had to engage with
family. And because Holly and I often
say that certain people in our lives we've had to engage with
that. We've had to kind of put
boundaries around them. Did it help you to have that in
your arsenal? No doubt, no doubt.
I mean, just having the, the training that I had, the

(12:13):
learning that I had about grief,the, the, the people that I had
worked with, the things that I'dseen people go through and with
them, I, I just, it didn't make it easier.
In fact, it's been horrendous, as you all know.
I mean, the other griefs in my life, one of them I thought
nothing could be worse until my husband died and and then I

(12:35):
couldn't figure out why this wasso much worse than the other,
which had to do with my child was well, he was there with me
when he lost a person. I lost him.
There was at the end, I would tell people at the end of the
day, literally and figuratively,I'm alone in this grief.
But but no doubt that everythingthat I'd learned, that the being

(12:58):
the therapist helped me know, you know, what I was going
through, even though it was horrible, I still knew it wasn't
shocking to me. What tool would you say there's
lots of tools in the toolbox, but what tool knowing now having
gone through this type of grief,would you say has helped you the
most or something that we can give And if you need to think

(13:19):
about it, we can come back to it.
But just a tool for for the widows listening or the the
widowers. Wow, to think of what would be
the most it's really hard the but one thing that comes to my
mind and it and it kind of goes back to what y'all were just
talking about about coming to the second year and people have
expected you to be moving on or they're afraid to bring things

(13:39):
up. They don't want you to feel sad
again, even though that's you know, not what happens or if you
do, you've got the support rightis that it's so important to
seek and continue to find the people in your lives who are
there, the ones that you feel safe enough to say.
And it's hard when I know for mepersonally and grief to reach
out and say I need you, you know, but it's it's one of those

(14:02):
imperative things to help. So that would be a tool because
the support is so important. And if it can be with other
widows like like y'all have beenable to do, it's fantastic.
But one of the first things I would say, and I think people
might think it's interesting that I'm going to call this a
tool, but I just have allowed all of my grief emotions to have

(14:26):
their say. Every one of them, the anger,
the the sadness, the loneliness,the the longing, the
uncertainties, the fears that they have to have their say.
And when I say that, I mean, I've yelled at my husband for
leaving, you know, out of anger.I have.

(14:46):
I literally did that yesterday. Did you?
Yes, something was going on withmy child and I screamed and
prayed. Hey, can't scream back so that.
Makes it easy. Did you go into, did you
actually go to his ashes and scream or did you just scream
into the air? There was this, I was driving
around and there was a sunset, and sometimes I'll look at the
sunset and think of him and I think it's a great tool, even as

(15:09):
far out as I am. I'd love that you're bringing
this up. I'm trying to feel more things,
even this these many years later.
I'm trying to allow myself, especially the anger and the
disappointment, right? I'm trying to, instead of just,
I was kind of bootstrapping it for a long time for my kids and
I'm feeling like it's healthier now to kind of dig into some of

(15:32):
that, honestly, right? Well, PS can also make you shut
down too about it it the longer it goes on.
I remember Holly saying that in the at the beginning, she didn't
think about what other people said about anything.
She was just like doing her thing and you know, just getting
through the day as she always says.
That's her quote. But it's it as time.
It is a good one and as time goes on, people don't want you

(15:55):
to keep doing that. So I feel like I've internalized
and thank God I have them to to tell like even now, 13 years
later, I'm noticing things that happened with Ryder or whatever
family member or friend is it itbubbles up things that he's not
here. Your person Bruce is not here to
talk to. So and I love that you always

(16:17):
address the anger part. God knows I came to you enough
times with the the rage is so acute when your person who was a
good guy is gone and you see allof these horrible human beings
living in the world that you think why are they here and why
is this amazing soul not here and not because of me, just in

(16:38):
the world. Well, it's the unfairness,
right? It all feels so unfair.
Nobody asked for it, nobody wanted it, and yet we're having
to live with it. So yes, for me, the and, and
the, the way that I would allow the other feelings would be the,
you know, excuse me, the, the crying, just crying it out, just

(17:01):
being OK with the crying and thesadness.
But also, you know, other ways finding the people that you can
express these things with, not just yelling to the air.
You know what God or your husband and or the circumstance,
whatever the circumstance might have been and.
What does a therapist get? A therapist.

(17:21):
I did this, I wanted to, I wanted to say that I actually,
well, I actually, this has come later, it's recent, but one of
the things I did earlier on after about four or five months
was I joined a, a group support group for grief through Hospice
Boston. I can say that and, and I mean,

(17:46):
I did that early on because I that was probably the other
thing from coming from being a therapist is I know how helpful
that could be and or I assumed it was and clients.
Tell it one artist widow out there.
She's. Seriously, she hasn't.
Ever. Needed a qualified widow ever.
Well, how did you find that? Like if you, that was a question
that I think Whitney came up with when we were talking, is

(18:08):
that what do you look for when you're looking for a therapist
because a lot of people aren't having good luck out there
finding somebody. Well, that's a little bit
different than OK, let me start with the group because that was
a group therapy and and my husband was in home a Hospice
for three weeks. And so I knew of their programs
that they had and they had told me they have, you know, they had
group or individuals individual.And so I didn't really have to

(18:31):
look far for that. I just knew that I needed
something. I believe that I needed the to
the the shared experience with others.
And and Even so again, you're asking a really good in question
because I had also facilitated grief support groups.
So I was kind of snobby about how these people, these people

(18:54):
might run this group. And did you try to take over?
Only in my mind. Secretly, you're running it in
the back of your mind, yeah. Good girl.
That's funny because she is. I bet that happened.
Well, and for a couple of sessions it was an 8 week group.

(19:14):
I really had some struggles so but I decided not to quit right
away. That's part of it, you know,
just give it a little bit more time.
And we discovered that when I worked at my healing place,
which is now Austin Center for Grief and Loss, where some
people would come into a group and it was just not for them.
Some people, it was too soon. They needed more just

(19:36):
individuals to have all the timefor themselves.
I wait on you to start. The group like, how long had it
been for you? I was into the 5th end of the
fifth month start kind of the 6th and they had actually said,
you know, don't they don't really accept until you've been
grieving about the fourth month.And we used to say that at my
healing place too, you know, don't come into a group just

(19:56):
right away. It really is a lot.
So it but it ended up being a really great time for me.
It ended up being all widows andthen and some people left and
they ended up a core of four of us and we still meet up every
other this core women like us. You have to start a podcast.

(20:17):
For women, what were the. Age.
I mean, were you all around the same age?
Yes, we were it's interest. It's really interesting how it
just came together all had our husbands die within about a four
month period. It's just and it was just
random. It happened and so we too we we
still meet up every other Monday.
Oh, I love that. It was great as far as so that's

(20:38):
part of it. You know, you, you kind of give
it a time if it's, if it doesn'tfeel right.
I mean, but that's, it's also personal.
How much time do you want to give to something that doesn't
feel right? And, and if it's not right,
heavens, you're in grief. Do what you need to do to feel
better. It's leave the group and find
something else. It's even if you make I think 1
connection, right? I mean, you were fortunate
enough to create this group before.

(20:59):
It was what? If you just find one person in
that grief that you can walk with or have coffee with or vent
to each other, I think it's worth it to try.
If I had found something like that at the time, which I did
not, I would have definitely jumped in.
I couldn't find anything that was in young enough for me.
And you know, people with young kids and just I couldn't quite,

(21:23):
it didn't quite fit the profile for me until I met these ladies.
But I think that's wonderful that you you met people that
way. I think I would.
I mean, I think that's a great way for people and to find a
support group it. Really is.
If someone was going out there looking for a therapist, what
when they're going to interview them?
But what would you suggest they ask the therapist when they're
interviewing them? Well, before I answer that, I

(21:45):
just wanted to say something else about what you were talking
about finding maybe one person. And I'd also like just to point
out that sometimes just the group can be very helpful too.
I did not think I was going to want or even need to keep
meeting up with these women before I felt like I had, you
know, plenty of support, but I didn't want to say no to them.

(22:05):
And so I went the first time when we met up and I've been
doing it ever since because it has been really extraordinarily
helpful for me. But even just what you could
learn from the group now as far as individual, the one of the
first things I wanted to say about that is if somebody's just
starting fresh, definitely you'dwant to look for degrees and
certifications, right? What the therapist has and

(22:27):
special specialties, their specialty, because there's so
many modalities in therapy out there.
And it's not to say that someonein grief couldn't be helped by,
by someone who hadn't been trained in grief therapy.
I wouldn't recommend it. It's, it's just a different
thing. It's you know, you grief is not
a mental illness. You know it's a natural and

(22:48):
normal reaction to a loss and there is a diagnosis.
For the unresolved grief. Thing, it's not perpetual.
There is, but there is a, there is a, it's a disorder and it's
mostly for when you're just, you're just debilitated for a
long, long, long time. But we're not talking about
that. We're just talking about the
grief that is is normal and natural.

(23:08):
So if once you find somebody with their degrees and maybe
there's their specialty and their trainees, my first
response to this is to say, ask them anything that you think is
important to you. And a therapist ought to be open
and willing for that and give you at least enough answers to
what you're asking that you would feel comfortable and feel

(23:29):
like you've been heard by them. And if not, that might be your
first clue that this isn't whereyou want to be.
After that, again, you might askabout trainings they've had,
experiences they had, maybe whatbrought them to grieve
themselves, if you're interestedin that.
But I will say what I think mostly you're going to find
about whether it's the fit for you is not something you can

(23:50):
describe. It's just it's just a feeling
you're going to have. And and what I think is when it
with someone and you feel that you're comfortable with them,
you feel like you're being heardby them.
And what I mean by that, they may be responding to you with
ways that you get it, that they they've just heard what you've
said. Or if not, they're asking you

(24:11):
questions to help them understand it better or they're
just saying things that you knowthat they just got it.
That would be one way, I think that you would feel like you
were hurt. The other way would be just how
comforted you might feel becausewhat you're needing at this time
is. Lacey's crying.

(24:32):
Now I'm going to we. No, don't make the guests cry.
We need to get all. We need to squeeze all in and go
on a scoop. She's just so.
You're so good about not only listening to what the person
saying, but you were always so thorough.
You would circle back just like you did with Kira.
Well, I was going to say that there you, you ought to be able
to feel like there's some gentlemovement through through the

(24:54):
session too, that you're not just flailing out there and
being left to your own devices, that there's some way that
you're also being guided throughit.
It can be, but that still the therapist would be able to
somehow wrap that up, wrap you in in it some way and move you
through it. I think that's a great point.
When do you start to take on some of this on your own?

(25:15):
Well, everybody that goes to therapy has their own needs that
they need and, you know, but andif somebody needs to keep going,
that would be one thing for them.
I couldn't speak to that. But in answer to your question,
that's what I believe, yes, thatthat the goal would be that
somehow you would be helping guide them through this terrible
journey that they're on because there is light at the end of the
tunnel. And, and so, yes, I think that's

(25:39):
the goal. And I was always seeking the
tools. I would sometimes go and they
listened and that was great. And my feelings were validated
and that was great. But then I really was looking
for these tools that you were referring to, this toolbox that
I could then take home and implement to get myself through

(25:59):
to the next session. Or, you know, whenever I saw the
therapist again, you know, or things happen and it's night
time and you know, I wasn't, I didn't have the therapist on
speed dial. I didn't feel like I ever found
someone that gave me enough tools that I wasn't really
getting a guidebook. I was going in and I was sharing
my feelings and they were very understanding and supportive.

(26:22):
But I really like this idea of because I'm sort of a do it, you
know, do it myself. I type a, I want to be able to
fix it myself. I wanted to be able to fix my
situation, my family, my kids, heal everybody, and I had a hard
time finding a therapist that really had a comprehensive
toolbox, I guess. Well, I think we started with

(26:43):
the toolbox, and I don't think that I got past just being out
for the emotion part, which has brought all this other wonderful
conversation up, you know, And when I say these things, you're
probably going to go, well, yeah, I know that.
Well, I know that, but some of it just takes dedication, right,
and the repeat. But what I started with was just
being able to give voice to all these awful, awful feelings and

(27:06):
inside. But would you write?
Would you journal, or would you just let it?
You would just sit in it? How did you personally do that?
Both I write, I particularly like poetry and yes, so I write.
I don't just journal like peopletalk, even though through my
grief I have done a bit of that with, it's usually directed to

(27:27):
my husband, you know, and whatever has happened and
whatever is going on. And so yes, that is absolutely
when I done both of those things.
I have just been in the pits, inthe deep dark pit of despair, no
doubt, and hating it, but also allowing myself to be there, but

(27:47):
never not looking for that little light that's way up
there. Whether it's my family, my
friends that are there, you know, the sunshine that's come
out, those sorts of things. And there's usually people there
that are about ready to hand down a ladder to me, you know,
and I'm ready to come up. So that yes, the writing,
reading books on grief. I mean, I have been given a lot

(28:08):
of permission to be in grief just by some of the books.
I've had two things that have been amazing for me since, you
know, I've become a widow that Ididn't have before.
Even that I gave me a lot of permission.
There was some exercises and you.
Share those books. Absolutely.
That's a good idea. Absolutely.
Right this moment, I'm going to say I wrote it down on a

(28:29):
different paper. I didn't burn that paper.
Come back. To the books, yeah.
Well, we can also, you could share them with us and we can
post it on our social media. So the books and the reading and
again I mentioned I'm a runner. That's that's one of my tools.
I have not quit running. I have not quit.
We were running, but we were running to Mexico and to Hawaii.

(28:50):
I've had, I've had a friend, I've had a friend do that and
has, and, and I felt in the beginning like she was doing so
wonderful. And I was like, you know, just,
you know, and, and then she comes back from these trips to
Europe and everything and then suddenly that's where she is,
you know, and she said while I was gone, there was a bubble for
me and I and, and for some people that's important.

(29:12):
I mean, you can't, everybody hastheir own way.
I guess that's important to know.
Do you? Did you ever escape?
I didn't because I will tell youI didn't.
I want to leave the, the home. I didn't want to leave Bruce, my
husband. I just his presence is so
unbelievably strong there. And it's, it's not quite as
strong, but it's still there. And I found peace there in the

(29:34):
midst of all the agony. I felt peace there.
I, I did not feel like I wanted to go anywhere.
I really felt held there, but I I'm sure I had my ways of escape
runnings, probably somewhat of escape, you know, I get out.
There exercises. To.
Say. You're into it now though, so
that's good, kind of. What's interesting, I think we

(29:59):
escaped also because we had young children and I wanted to
take them and do fun things. So that was part of it, although
now I'm escaping by myself. I did both.
I took my kids on a lot of fun trips and then I also just
needed breaks for myself. But I was, I was avoiding.
I wasn't sitting in it like you have been.

(30:21):
I was avoiding for. Well, you know, I had the
luxury. That's for y'all out there
that's, you know, doing air. I'm doing air quotes because I
did not have a young child or children at home.
It's a whole different level of what you're dealing with and you
call it escape. You're taking care of your
children and trying to do what you think is going to also make

(30:42):
them get through this, right. You're their person to help them
get through it. And I don't even you know if
escape is a really, you know, accurate word for that.
I mean in your mind it may feel like that, but it's self.
Care that would probably make mefeel.
I also do have the tools, no therapist gave her tools to be
able to deal with the grief. Like because there are no rules

(31:04):
for this, we didn't get a manualthat told us how.
Right, dude, absolutely. Helped me by giving me those
tools so that I could didn't mean I didn't escape ever, but
it it made it less where I needed to do that because of the
things that you and one of the things you said to do is you
gave me a script. One day you said you're going to
go home and you're going to takea nap.
And I was like, I can do that. Like because we all had little

(31:27):
kids and it sounded so silly. Now I kind of laugh about it,
but it, it was true. I remember mission to go home
and take it. I was exhausted.
And so that was even a good toolfor the tool.
Absolutely, absolutely. Self-care.
We talk about self-care, but self-care is really individual.
It's like what? I mean, there's some things that
are universal, being sure that you're keeping up with your

(31:49):
physical body, right? What you're eating, getting some
rest and those sorts of things. The exercise if possible,
meditation if possible, but mostly it's about what makes you
feel more peaceful, what gives you some rest and if going with
your children was what they did that for you, or a nap in the
afternoon. Some things we don't give

(32:09):
ourselves permission for and somebody else.
Everyone's beating this all day.But yeah, for me, self-care just
has meant a million different things since our car accident.
And just trying to even have like a moment by myself before
the school day ended for the kids, you know, where I would
just sort of center myself before I had to pick them up

(32:31):
from school and start all the activities and everything kind
of started rolling again. And so, yeah, even something as
small as that, just taking a beat for yourself.
That's a tool you might not have.
Really, you might. I realized it.
But you had a tool I. Was teaching that multi tool
that you send your kid off to college with.
It has a little bit of everything.
Well, I have a few more on my list, but you're right, I can.

(32:52):
Do my kids? But that was my multi tool, it
wasn't so great. It's what you could do then at
the time. You had another tool too, and we
had a guest on our show that wasan EMDR specialist and you had
recommended that to me. Something happened strange in
there too, in that one session, and I wanted you to address that
as well because I don't know if you guys, this is something I
don't think any of us have talked about or if any of our

(33:15):
audience members experienced it.I don't know if you remember,
but when I was doing a session with you I had a dissociation.
Disassociation. And you were.
And I said, I remember telling us that your head's really big
and you and your body was reallysmall and you were having me
walk through what happened that day.
He waited quite a while to ask me those questions because the

(33:38):
relationship had to be, you know, kind of secure.
And I felt safe. But I remember that happening.
And it's the weirdest. It was the best feeling.
And the I was floating As soon as you started asking me what
happened that day, I, I went outand I was up in the air and your
body looks weird. So what is?
What? Yeah, what was happening?
And how did you get me to? You can tell them how you got me

(34:00):
to come out of that spiral. Remember.
Oh, I did. You couldn't cut that out.
See, this reminded me what I did.
I'm like, what did I do? Well, I know what.
I would probably do now, but that was 13 years ago.
Well, yeah, she had an out of body experience because this was
too painful. She did not want to be there.

(34:22):
She. The mind is an amazing thing
that protecting you. Absolutely, absolutely.
She could. She, her mind was not prepared
to go back to that awful traumatic situation.
She was traumatized in that situation.
And so the body, she was being protected from that experience
again. And so she was going off and it

(34:43):
felt pretty good, but she didn'tneed to be out there.
It's really, it's really important for her to be
grounded. See, I mean, that's, that's
really literally and figuratively grounded because
she was, she was dissociating and we needed to get, I needed,
we needed it for you to come back and be in the moment.
And right there. It was too much.
And one way to do that is to have people be sure they, they,
they can feel their feet on the floor, you know, get their hands

(35:07):
feel in the moment to feel something solid.
And I had her hold a ball to geta ball and to be feeling that
ball and just be, get your, it'sreally about getting back in the
moment, not being out there, notbeing back in the experience
with Oliver, but to be in the moment and to breathe and to
breathe and to breathe. And so because she was

(35:28):
traumatized, then just regular talk therapy doesn't always work
with that. And, you know, there's, there's
certain ways that the circuits in the brain need to be rewired.
And that was the EMDR. You don't have that response at
all. Yeah, I mean, I have been
diagnosed with PTSD also and I also had the dissociating when I
did the EMTT, Dr. Vasquez where I was, I think I talked about

(35:50):
this in an earlier episode similar to EMDR, but I was
looking at a color rainbow. And when I would start to talk
about the car accident, he specifically specialized in
helping people that were in car accidents.
And when I would talk about thatmoment, the whole rainbow went
black. And he was really sweet because
I would start panicking. I'm like, I can't see the orange

(36:12):
anymore. And because I wanted to do it
right, to be healed. And he says as soon as it turns
black, look at my shirt. And he had like a Plaid shirt
on. And he would make me look at
him, like just look at his shirtand look at the pattern and be
like, what pattern do you see here?
And then I would restart all over again until I could hold

(36:33):
the color while talking about the car accident.
It was really fascinating actually.
And it and it really worked. It really helped me.
Ultimately I was able to hold onto the rainbow, get through the
story after like 50 times or something without that blackness
coming in a similar grounding. Yeah.
Did you guys do? Anything like that?

(36:55):
No, but I do have a question about reliving that car accident
or the death, whatever the situation, because Zach's
therapist did make him relive the car accident.
He was in the accident, I was not.
And I was telling another therapist friend that his
therapist was having him relive it.

(37:16):
And they were like shocked at that.
I mean, why do you want to relive it?
Obviously I've, I've gone over it in my head, but I wasn't in
the accident. And I don't know if you have an
answer to that. I don't exactly though I don't
know that I would in in my work and just the great therapy that
I was doing that I would think someone necessarily had to

(37:38):
relive it by talking about some people have a strong need to
talk about it, to share it. To express to me that my 11 year
old like my, you know, of courseI'm criticizing myself for
letting him go to this therapist.
And I mean, I never talked to him about it because I.
Therapist should have had you there at least.
He did. I mean, and I, I knew, but you

(38:01):
know, this was like, I'm like thinking, OK, this is what you
do. Right.
Because I had no experience. That was your son.
You said Zach was your son or isyour son?
So what was his his experience from that, do you know?
You know, I don't really know. He, I think he was so young and
he was going through the processbecause I was like, OK, we're

(38:21):
going to therapy. And he just did it.
And he never, you know, I would ask him, you know, do you feel
better? Do you want to go back?
And he would go back until one day he was like, I don't want to
go anymore. And I was like, OK, if you don't
feel like you need to go. But I haven't talked to him
about it in a really long time. The MDR specialist mentioned the

(38:43):
day that we had her, she said there that with particularly
kids, like Zach was injured as well, so it was doubly traumatic
for him. She said that there's some
people you don't go, you don't keep pushing like you.
There's a point which you know that you've gone too far and
then you have to pull back because it can re traumatize
somebody. Like I never understood why

(39:03):
someone needed to relive it. I don't know.
Well, like Kira, like why did why did you choose that therapy
and did it help you? So there were a few reasons I
ended up with Doctor Vasquez 1 was I was going to try EMDR that
Laci had suggested, but my therapist either wasn't doing it

(39:23):
anymore or she didn't have someone that was doing EMDR.
But she had gone to a lecture ofDoctor Vasquez and said, oh, I
think this person might help you.
Why don't you try this? I think for me it was the PTSDI
think for me it was reliving some of the moments in the car
accident, reliving, you know, when the EMT stood outside the

(39:47):
open window and I'm trapped in the car and they called in
Frank's death. So that's like how I I found out
he was dead while I'm still trapped in the car after I'd
caught on fire. So they were just things that
were sticking with me. I mean, it was a lot to take in.
And this was a few years after because of my circumstance,
everything was pushed out because I was in and out of

(40:09):
surgery for two years. Then I had a major relapse, had
sepsis. I must die again.
And I just went through so many physical things that were
traumatic, that all of the griefpart.
Got pushed out, but my therapistat one point thought that this
PTSD from the accident, you know, was interfering with kind

(40:30):
of my day-to-day and just, yeah,just it was causing a lot of
residual trauma for me and so that's why I went.
But I think, you know, he also explained to me this could
happen. This therapy is good for
anything, not just a massive caraccident, but even like an

(40:51):
unsettling phone call, like whenyou get the call that
something's happened or you know, the policeman shows up at
the door or whatever it is. Even if you weren't physically
in the car like I was and Frank died, just these little things
that you're replaying over and over and your nervous system is
reliving it and creating more trauma and stress in the body.

(41:14):
I think it just depends on how your body is reacting.
Like I would get anxious when I would hear an ambulance, but it
wasn't to the point where I had to pull over and had a panic
attack. So I just kind of worked through
it myself. But it if it had been a
debilitating reaction, then that's when you go and get it

(41:34):
taken care of is kind of how I thought of it.
The hard thing for me too is whenever I would meet someone
new, and this was whether it wasa doctor's appointment or like
somebody, some parents at schoolor with the sport, the
activities. So I'm meeting new people all
the time that don't know my story.
You tell them what happened. I would try to craft it in a

(41:55):
very low key way because I'm kind of low key.
I'm not really like Whitney, Like my husband's dead.
I'd be like well. She says she has Widow turret.
My family's been through some things lately, so the kids are
XY and Z or I'm a little overloaded right now.
I would just be like real sly about it.
And then I mean, even if I just went in for like a mammogram and

(42:16):
I have this scar down the middleof my body, Oh, what happened
here? And then I would say, oh, I was
in a car accident. And then they would say, did
anyone die? That is horrible.
I just got tired of getting triggered all the time, right
and every and then they want to know all the gory details.

(42:36):
And it was funny because doing the podcast and telling my story
was kind of liberating and that I'm like, here's what happened
folks. For all of you out there
wondering, this is the horrible shit show that happened to me.
And my child was also in the caras well.
And so anyway, that was part of it too.
I was tired of having to just bere triggered and re traumatized

(42:58):
in everyday interactions. I would never say that to
somebody. I mean, that's the craziest
thing. And.
Especially even curious at curiosity.
I swear to God. But see, everybody wanted to
know. Dramatic scar down someone's
body. You, you know just by looking at
it that that was a horrifying, traumatic event.
How dare you? And you're getting a mammogram

(43:19):
as you're medical. People.
Like how weird is that? You're already in the
vulnerable. What did you say?
Did you ever say to somebody, everybody, I really don't want
to talk about that, or would youtry to play it off like, Oh no
big deal, you probably? Told him.
Because he's Ariana Pleaser. So I was raised to kind of like
be polite and get through it. I did have a, a General

(43:39):
practitioner that I went to see that was recommended to me
because I had so many health things going on.
And she was supposed to be amazing.
And I'm not faulting her. But when I went in from my first
visit, I was just explaining everything that happened.
She started sobbing in the appointment and I switched
doctors was like, I need somebody who's going to be like,

(44:01):
all right, Kira, I've got you like we're going to fix this.
We're going to take care of you.You're going to be OK.
Yes, you've lost your swinging. Yes, you, you know, had a head
injury. Yes, you your liver is destroyed
and you built broke everybody inyour body.
But I'm going to give you some supplements and you're going to
feel great, right? It's all about the supplement.
I just didn't need the doctor breaking down.
I mean, that was traumatizing too.

(44:22):
Yeah, there's, I'm going to jumpin because there's two.
There's just two points that I think are really important right
here. And one of them you both said
when you go to for this extra help, it's because your life is
being so impacted. You know, that it's hard to move
forward and to get on and and that's when you do look for what
else do I need here? And that's really important.

(44:43):
The other thing that you just said about the doctor is really
important too, which goes back to the question about finding a
therapist. It is someone you will feel like
whoever you are seeing is someone who can take your grief
and hold it. And by that I mean not fall
apart, not be terrified of your own grief, that they can be with

(45:06):
you in it and that, you know, inside we can feel a lot that we
are not we are not the ones thatare there to then be helped.
So that's another thing to look for when you're telling it is
that person being able to take whatever I'm giving them and
hold it for me and help me sort through it and get through it
without falling apart themselvesor being too getting too wrapped

(45:29):
up in it with their own emotions.
Right. So that was.
That's a really important point.So how does someone like like
Holly and and Pier 2, they both had kids that were in the car
accident. Like how do you know what helped
to give them? I think a lot depends on what
you're seeing with your children, right?
I mean, y'all, y'all know when your kids are really basically,

(45:50):
I mean, you did this with with Ryder.
You try to group and he just just didn't feel like he needed
it. I think some of the cues come
from your children and keeping the communication open with
them. I do know this was because I
know Lacey from then, and I knowthat she was very, very good
about keeping the communication open with Ryder.
You know, there's a balance, right?
There's a balance in protecting them, but also not because she's

(46:12):
having it away. Actually, a lot of trial and
error because I had three kids, all different ages, in and out
of all kinds of therapy. And I, I agree with you, you've
got to take the cues from your kid.
I feel like with Holly, you know, the minute your son says I
don't want to go back, that was for me.
That was it. OK, we're going to take a break

(46:33):
and then. Yeah, because if they don't want
it, they're not open to any helpthat they may be getting it.
It just doesn't work. Well, it's the same for us,
right? I mean, we get to a point
sometimes it's like, well, I'm done with this therapy or I
don't want it anymore. For whatever reasons.
You feel like you've been helped.
You don't feel like you've been helped.
You need a break. And the kids can be exactly the
same way. So I think, yeah, really

(46:53):
listening. Old mine, which I probably need
to have this conversation again,but when my older 1 was like, I
don't want to do that. I'm like, I'm not going to make
you do it. I said, but no, that in five
years, 10 years, you may need togo back.
And I told them I've seen many therapists in the last eight
years at different times and oneserved a purpose for earlier on,

(47:17):
and the one I saw just like a year ago served a different
purpose. That's right.
That's good guys. We're.
Running out of time and I, I want to kind of get back to your
story, Cheryl. We didn't really get any
background about you and Bruce and what you had to deal with
prior to his death. It wasn't a sudden death.

(47:38):
There's grief and, and caretaking and knowing that
there's an end coming versus just it ends.
I would love for you to share a little bit of your story story
with Bruce and then touch on that caretaker grief and how you
coped before he died. I don't mind at all because I
love to talk about Bruce, as y'all were all discussing

(47:59):
earlier. Well, he was diagnosed with
terminal prostate cancer eight years before he died.
So we lived eight years with that knowledge and not knowing
when it would come. And he was a very strong man, a
very determined man. And I will say he did not
require tons of caretaking. He was just that independent.

(48:20):
He had, we talked because we knew, we talked many hours about
quality versus quantity of life.And he was very clear what was
important to him. It was quantity.
Of course, he was, he was 65 when he was diagnosed.
So he had, you know, it lived a good time by that time.
So what I will say is it gave usa lot of opportunity for prep,

(48:42):
but you never can prepare, right?
In the end, it's it, it's, there's no preparing for what it
will be like. So as he went through the the
years, you know, things change. There would be, he'd have to
keep changing medicine. There was no cure, but there was
a way to manipulate hormones and, and keep him regulated and
to keep the cancer at Bay. But it was going to come one

(49:03):
day. When it finally came, I will say
that it was, it's going to be two years on the 3rd of March
that we heard he had six months.And in reality, it turned out to
be 6 weeks. So there was while we knew, how
can you know, right? And when it came, it came fast.

(49:23):
So I did not have a long time ofcare caretaking in the sense
we're talking about. Actually, the day that I called
the beginning of the last was ona Sunday.
And our granddaughter had spent the night with us the night
before and he had been mowing the yard the day before and, and
he had worked up until that point.
He was determined to keep his company going.

(49:45):
He was a tough guy. He was a very tough guy.
He was a very tough guy. I mean, he wasn't feeling well
and things have been happening for a couple of months that was
giving me a cue that maybe, but he would then rally, you know,
and be back to work. So he would mow the yard.
So on that Sunday, I knew something was off more than
usual. All of a sudden he was in so

(50:05):
much pain, he couldn't walk across the living room.
And I thought he's probably having a heart attack because he
kept talking about how much it hurt here.
So we called the ambulance. My granddaughter was there, so
she was seeing that. But even that wasn't horrible,
horrible. I mean, he didn't pass out.
He wasn't bleeding. You know, there was.
There was a lot of things that made it not so traumatizing for

(50:25):
her, even though she still talksabout that she's sick.
She was 4 then and she still talked about ambulance taking
him to heaven. That's what she imagined.
So even though she did see him before he died once.
So anyway, of course, when he got to the hospital, he was, we
were told wasn't his heart, wasn't his lungs.

(50:46):
And in fact, it was really the cancer, the cancer there.
There was just nothing else to do.
And they then right then suggested Hospice.
So in, you know, we had this whole time that we knew it was
coming and then all of a sudden it was here and there was just
no prep for that. And I was terrified, to tell you
all the truth. I was terrified.
And he was too, because he did not.

(51:06):
None of us want this, but he really did not want to be in our
home in a hospital bed, unable to take care of himself with me
taking care of him. It was the thing he really, we
both had hoped he was having a heart attack, to tell you the
truth, as awful as that can sound.
And, and it was, it was an awfulthought, except that both of us
were terrified about this. But, and I'll also say you

(51:27):
mentioned about there was just ashroud always right?
We know it's coming. But it's not in the moment, it's
not in pushing it back a little bit.
Well, for me, it was very important for him to not go
forward because really I would so sometimes think, think about
that, what would this be like? Well, I couldn't really know,
but also I knew the time was limited.
So I really tried to stay in theday, which going back to what

(51:49):
you said, just get through the day one day at a time.
And to realize in that day that he was still alive and we were
still together. And I really worked at that.
And that is another tool for grief.
It is if I go out here and thinkabout the rest of my life
without bruise, I can't do it. It's like, how do I do that?
How do I live that? I can do a day, I can do an
hour, you know, So that's another tool.

(52:10):
So that's what I worked really hard on.
And so the last three weeks of his life, he did get to the
point that he did not want to get to that.
I was terrified of keeping aheadof the pain was the worst part.
It was horrendous. I will say that for anybody out
there that knows the pain that someone can be in at the end of

(52:30):
this and trying to keep ahead ofit and having to keep calling
and calling. Can we have more meds?
Can we have more meds? I didn't sleep.
I lost probably 10 lbs in three weeks.
I didn't eat, you know, I was constantly having to tend to him
every few hours and people kept wanting to come help and I knew
that he wouldn't want people there.
And so I kept saying no until one day one of my friends with

(52:55):
my friend from Maine, she'd beensaying, I'll be there.
You just caught you tell me. And I'd like I was trying to
protect him. And then I just knew.
I, I told her, I need you. And I also knew she was the only
person probably he would be allowing that because they had a
special bond themselves together.
I mean, he was at her Valentine cards.
I mean, they, they, they've had a very special bond.

(53:17):
So she was in Maine. I called her about noon on
Monday and she came in at midnight and I really don't know
how I would have done it that last week without her.
I mean, so many things happened.I could go on and on.
Things that were horrible but made us laugh, you know, and you
know that all that horrible stuff and then we're dying
laughing. There's.
So much just like many moments of humor in those traumatic

(53:42):
moments, because it's really that's what code.
Exactly and and it's not easy but there but it is easy.
I mean, y'all get it. But in fact, back one of the
Hospice nurses when she was first there said to me there
will be blessings in this and like yeah, right, lady, what are
you talking about? How's there going to be any
blessing that to me? And actually I will say that in

(54:05):
the end it was a blessing. I was very grateful.
And then not everybody getting many people don't get this many
people. Y'all didn't get this To be
there when he took his last breath and to be there and it
was hard. I was scared, I was exhausted, I
was worried. And yet it was one of the
greatest gifts that I could have.

(54:26):
I mean, this was a man I'd started dating when I was 16
with. I've been with him for 56 years.
So, you know, as a kid and then to see him out and it's one
reason why I couldn't leave my home.
I, I was so scared that he was going, his death there was going
to taint this place. To be honest, that was one
reason why I was really scared because we, we had moved in the

(54:47):
last 10 months because he was trying to downsize and get me
into a place that would be because that's another thing you
can do if you know, right? And that was what he wanted to
do. It was turned out to be such a
lovely little place and we both enjoyed it for a few months
there together. I was so afraid his death was
going to taint it. You know, the emotions, what my
memories would be. It's been nothing like that.

(55:08):
I felt like when he died, all heleft was love.
That's all he left was thrive. And it's and it's why I could
not leave. I really felt like he was there.
And I you're talking about that in the beginning.
Interesting how everybody's thing is different.
Like some of us wanted to escapebecause it's too heavy.

(55:30):
Whitney is the only one that's moved.
She, well, they just moved here and in the house.
And so she's moved. This is a house that her husband
didn't live in. Yeah.
None of the other three of us have moved.
And so I've thought about Whitney a lot in that situation,
Like, would I like it? Would it be nice to have
something new that I don't have him there?
And then part of me is like, do I want to leave the memories

(55:52):
that I have because it's something years I don't.
Know I heard something or read something.
It's like, don't forget the soleis portable.
And so I really believed I'm notleaving him.
He's going with me. And honestly, the downsizing,
the same type of situation. It was too much house.
We needed to get closer to my children's after school life and

(56:14):
we were kind of far away from that.
So it worked out. But I do want to ask you because
I I also believe the blessings and the trauma, some of the most
horrible things in your life, also become the most magical.
It's such a strange thing. But if you can hold on to that,
that is an amazing gift. Would you like to share

(56:35):
something that you get from Bruce?
I just always love to hear thosestories.
I've. Had a lot of signs.
I've had a lot of signs. I'll tell you the most.
Whitney loves the signs. I love the sign.
Well, and I would say there's a lot Bruce had a Bruce had a
thing about crows and for some reason they were a spiritual
animal to him. I had he was a thing about
crows, not butterflies. No, not but no crows.

(56:56):
He he, he just attached to crows.
He loved crows and he felt like there was something very
spiritual. So I said it was a spiritual
animal. And after he died I found notes
that he had left around and one of them had to do with me
listening for the crows and thatevery time I heard a crow it
would be him telling me I he loves me.

(57:17):
I have had literally crows. Y'all don't have enough time.
It's not been at the. House, I have to be the skeptic.
Well, let me tell you, well, I could tell you several and you
might not be a skeptic anymore. You have to be open, right?
And so it was really his business.

(57:38):
But I did the book work and all that for 33 years.
He was an electrical contractor.And so one of the things I had
to do in the year after he died was close out the company and do
all of that, which took time. And I was back at the CPA's
office several times. They had been with us for years.
It was a small company, that same people there and and they
knew us and they knew when Brucewas had cancer and treatments

(57:58):
and all that. And, and so every time I'd go
in, that was very emotional. But when I went in for the
final, final time, and I knew itwas the final time, it was the
final closing out, I knew that Iwas just going to really
struggle to hold it together. And I really started to cry.
And of course, nobody knows whatto do, right.
You know, like they're like looking at you like don't do
that, don't do that. Yeah, they try to say don't do

(58:19):
that, don't do that. And so all I wanted to do was to
crawl up in the corner into a fetal positioning and baw my
eyes out because this had been his baby.
But I thought, OK, I'm going to walk out of here.
I'm going to get in my car and Ican cry all I want.
So I walk out and I've taken 3 steps and I hear it.
Ah. Crawl.
Crow and I look up and there is a crow on an electrical pole.

(58:45):
He's funny. Oh, he's funny, so funny.
I have another one and I'm like,you're here, you're here.
Thank you. It's in the middle of town on
1st St. so not near my house. But I will tell you another one
that is a little bit more indirect.
On my birthday last year, I keptwanting to see him.
I tell him, you know, I want to sign, I want to see you.

(59:06):
Let me know it's my birthday. So my whole birthday goes,
there's no sign, no bruise, no nothing. 9:00 That night, I'm
not even thinking about it anymore, and I get a text.
He used to work for a lot of marinas out at the lake, doing
the electrical work or the building, whatever.
They did that. And he was really close to the
managers or the owners of a lot of these marinas.
So my phone, I had a text and I look at it and there's a text

(59:28):
from one of the Marina operatorsthat I hadn't heard from over a
year before. I hadn't heard from this guy.
And there's a text from him like, OK, And he I opened it up
and he said, I just hope you're he said, I hope you're OK.
I want you to know that today wehad an electrical problem on the
Marina. And Bruce would be laughing at
me right now so hard because allI've done is walk around talking

(59:51):
about how much I miss him. I'm like, Oh my gosh, there's my
sign. He and I'd read him, told him.
I said, Roland, you are the conduit that on my birthday, I
wanted something. You had it.
You brought it to me. Now, how do you?
How do you? Get really you know though and I
could tell you many more. I'm even laughing because I'm

(01:00:12):
I'm imagining Bruce is like, look, honey, I know it's your
birthday, but we got an electrical problem over here
that I got, so I will give you your sign.
Later, you know. Look at crows, we're all busy.
Well, and and Roland wouldn't know to listen for the crow,
right? Well, on the I was running on
the trail one day. He had a company truck.
He told me before he died, get rid of that right away or

(01:00:35):
banking payments on if the insurance is out of this world,
get rid of it. Well, of course I couldn't, you
know, like it sat in the driveway.
But after about four months, I was thinking I am making
payments every month and then insurance is really high.
So maybe I need to think about it.
So it's running where I do my best thinking and I I just was
mulling it over. I don't know it should I do
this? Should I not?

(01:00:56):
And I was almost at the end of my run and I'm like, babe, what
should I do? You want the.
Crow row flew. Right.
I'm not kidding you, I don't. Ever see?
Crows do. You over.
It flew right over my head, landed on a limb right beside
while I was running it stopped me.
I stopped and I said babe, it sat there.

(01:01:17):
I mean and now granted it was heating.
Saw the truck. Yeah, it was.
It didn't even make a noise. It just sat there and I'm like,
OK, yeah. So did you saw the truck?
I did, yeah. I sold the truck.
And I will tell you one of the books that was really helpful
for me was just a daily reader. And it was really great for me.

(01:01:39):
Just had a little quote and thena little writing and then a
bottom quote. One of them was about the woman
who did the book. She had a teenage daughter die
in a in a boating accident or something.
And you didn't really know it wasn't about her story, But
every once in a while it got brought up and she was talking
about the day she thought she had a sign.
And she was sitting at the tabletalking about it with her.

(01:02:00):
She had another son or two children and talking about, oh,
is this a sign? You know?
And her son said, mom, why don'tyou just accept it as a gift?
Yeah. And I decided that day, that's
what I'm doing. And I've been open to whatever
comes along and as a gift. Why?
Wouldn't you believe it? I think for me, just to be

(01:02:21):
devil's advocate. No, Kyra, it's.
It's a fear of disappointment. It's a fear of disappointment
and feeling like maybe they're not, like, looking over you and
maybe they're not really connected anymore.
And, you know, since I met Whitney, I have been trying to
be more open for the signs. But I've actually gone through a

(01:02:42):
really hard week with two of my children.
And I was praying to Frank. And he's just like, not around
radio science. Or that's how it feels.
Right. Well, you know, and for me it's
wonderful, but if, you know, everybody's different.
I just can't say that enough. What works for me won't work for
somebody else. It's, you know, I, I do believe

(01:03:03):
in God and I don't not like somebody sitting up there on a
cloud, but in everything, the creator, the creation in the
trees, in the, in the pebbles that I walk on.
And if Bruce is with God, then Bruce is everywhere in my
opinion. And so why not in a crow?
Creator he's. The creator.
So if you're creative, he can come to you in the most.

(01:03:24):
And I have to say, Whitney got me to really thinking about
signs. I'd I'd always look for them,
but they weren't so obvious. And then a guy cut me off
yesterday, second time NGB on the license plate.
And I thought, how hilarious is this?
Because I was really irritated And that kind of calmed me down
immediately because I thought heknows life's been hard lately.

(01:03:46):
I do think they're there, but I think it's also so for me, it's
a God thing too. And I have to remember he's
creative. He's a creator, by the way.
All right, we're. Going to throw here Frank, Throw
her a bone. Throw her a oh she's going to
spine the bone. It's probably going to be a bone
now, yeah. But be open to it.

(01:04:06):
Well, that said, I think we're probably getting time to where
we have to I. Say one loud.
Have one more thing to ask you. OK, I want, I really think this
is an important thing to say foreveryone out there too,
especially people that are new to this.
A tool is breathing, breathing. People in grief stop breathing.

(01:04:28):
They do not breathe. And it is imperative.
You're talking about the centralnervous system.
It helps get back there, the deep breathing from the
diaphragm and, and it has to be intentional.
I mean, have to be intentional and think about it.
It's a tool. It's a relative for about 5
years. Lacing nose.
When she met me. Wanted to end on a really kind
of fun note because I was lucky enough and I felt privileged

(01:04:51):
that you invited me to your vow renewal.
And it was. I saw a different side to you.
I saw you with Bruce because youwere your most.
I hate the word authentic. It sounds like the buzzword of
the century, but but it's true. And I'm sorry I'm making you
cry, but people should know who he is.
It just became imperative. In fact, he was the one that

(01:05:13):
brought it up. It was in January of that year
he brought it up. He said I want us to do that
now. I want us to do it now.
And so we had the 1st of April and then he died the next April
and it was amazing it. Had to be fun to do that because
at a funeral it's a different kind of gathering, obviously,
for your friends, but you got todo this with your friends and

(01:05:33):
family and get to do something that was happy at a time that
was really hard, I'm sure. So I just thought it was such a
magical day. I came away there with some of
the coolest and I didn't know anybody there, not a soul, and
everybody made me feel welcome. This has been so amazing and we
appreciate it so much. So, so much.

(01:05:54):
Talk to you all day. Wisdom, I know, and it's so
helpful for us and for all of our listeners to thank you for
being here. It's not easy to talk about
these things. Thank you for having me.
Honestly, I feel very honored but humbled because I learned
from you too. I want you to know that we're,
we're walking this path together.
I don't care if it's been 13 years or 13 days, right?

(01:06:16):
We we're walking it. So thank you all.
I'm not running it, Cheryl. Just walking.
We're just walking. You're running.