November 22, 2023 • 47 mins
Embark on a captivating journey with Hollywood feature film editor and director, Debra Neil-Fisher, as she opens up about her career on the "Everyday Masters" podcast. Debra reflects on her unique path, emphasizing natural talents honed through daily practice and perpetual learning.
Sterling & Diamond explore Debra's extensive credits, including her work on blockbuster films like "Fried Green Tomatoes," the Austin Powers series, and Fifty Shades movies. They delve into the nuanced nature of professional mastery and the intricacies of Debra's trajectory, navigating nepotism, and transitioning from assistant editor to feature film editor.
Discover Debra's creative process, insights into editing diverse projects, and her foray into directing. Uncover the underappreciated role of editors in filmmaking, and explore universal applications of Debra's creative perspective, emphasizing the importance of diverse viewpoints, simplicity, and focus in achieving success.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Debra (00:00):
I always say things have to earn their way in.
(00:02):
If you took everything out anddecided only the crucial things
could come in or be part of whatyou're working on, I often start
with the scene that way,especially if something's
already been cut.
I start with this idea of whatcould I just keep the simplest
form what has to be there?
Maury (00:17):
I love that.
Song (00:19):
Welcome to Everyday Masters, the show where we seek
to understand mastery.
People who have it, people whotry for it, people who struggle
with it, and how we all manifestit in our own lives.
Welcome to Everyday Masters.
Everyday Masters.
Everyday Masters.
Everyday Masters.
Everyday masters, everydaymasters.
Craig (00:44):
Hey everybody welcome to this episode of Everyday
Masters.
My name is Craig Diamond.
Maury (00:49):
What's up Craig?
I'm Maury Sterling.
And we're really glad you'rejoining us this week on our
show.
Craig (00:55):
This week we are really excited! She is a big time
Hollywood movie editor and weare talking about big feature
films all of the Hangover filmsand all of the 50 Shades films,
and a zillion films.
It's really, really interesting'cause as I approached her,
Maury.
She was pretty reluctant.
(01:16):
She was like, no, same old thingthat we're hearing with so many
people.
She's like, I just don't, I,there's so many people that are
better than me.
And I was just blown away by thefact that at this, resume and
the films that this guest hasworked on, I was like, wow I
cannot believe you could do whatyou do for that long.
Get recognized, be a part ofsuch successes and still, I'm
(01:38):
not exactly sure.
I I, I'm the person you need tobe talking to.
Maury (01:41):
Right.
Yeah.
Now we've run a lot with people.
That's sort of the attitude, andI mean, I certainly relate to
it.
I and I, I don't know, maybeIt'd be weird to maybe talk to
the person who's like, yes, I amthe king, but we'll see.
I don't know.
Craig (01:53):
Real quick, on a personal level what, what are you working
on these days with regard tomastery?
Where's your head at?
Maury (01:58):
Where is my head?
This week was a lot about sortof how I look at my life that,
what's the lens I'm using thisweek, which is a recurring theme
all the time thinking aboutthat.
But this week it felt very clearthat if I looked at my life
through the lens of what am Idoing today?
You know, the the old adage ofif I'm just staying in the
process and staying out ofresults.
I'm like, wow.
All right.
Cool.
I feel great about what I'mtrying to do each day and where
(02:20):
I'm applying my energy and howI'm to, how I'm trying to be in
my relationships, how I'm tryingto be as a dad, how I'm treat,
my body and health, how I'mtrying to treat work.
As soon as I started spinningoff and do where I am in my own
gradation of success versusfailure or moving the needle,
not moving the needle.
All the ways I think aboutthings, it started getting kind
of crappy pretty quickly.
(02:41):
And that was an, a reallyinteresting distinction to kind
of see the difference betweenthe two.
What about you?
Craig (02:47):
Mine was kind of a layup in the sense that know, we're
talking to Debra Neil-Fisher,and she's an editor.
I spent a lot of time editingthis podcast.
And so there was kind of an artimitating life kind of, what is
an editor, you know, an editoris, is trying to tell stories.
You know, An editor trying toget rid of not needed.
(03:09):
An editor is trying to take anaudience on a bit of a journey,
interesting to edit the thingthat has a master editor in it,
I guess is what I would say,which is kind of fun to
consider.
And then kind of feeling like,you know, Maury I, get feedback
from the guests on the showthat, that they really enjoy it.
And so, I do think you and I aregaining a bit of mastery in
(03:32):
making for a welcomingenvironment.
So here we have this personthat's a master in editing
feature films, working withthese A-list directors and
producers and stuff.
And you and I are able to havethis like really friendly, nice
conversation, which frankly Ithink she, some people are kind
of nervous to do it and I thinkyou and I are good at creating
an environment where peoplewanna be a part of this.
Maury (03:53):
And I like that too.
'cause that actually confirmskind of what I was thinking
about.
this week, let's stick with thattheme of which story are you
telling?
You know, are you, are youtelling the tragedy?
Are you telling the, not evenoptimistic, just sort of the
practicality one.
Like, which story are youtelling anyways?
Craig (04:06):
Alright, so without further ado, let's cut right to
it.
You get what I did right there.
See how I did that Let's cutright to the guest this week.
Debra Neil-Fisher.
Debra (04:21):
Hi, nice to see you guys.
Maury (04:23):
Thanks for
Debra (04:23):
I'm so happy that you invited me.
The truth is I really was kindof nervous about being invited
onto a podcast.
I haven't done one before, soI'm a little, uh, a little
worried, you know, a littlenervous.
Craig (04:34):
Well, don't, don't worry.
And that actually segues into afirst question we have.
So when you were asked to be ona podcast called Everyday
Masters, was that experiencelike for you?
Debra (04:45):
First I said, why me?
Of course, I was like, I'm notsure what I have mastery in.
And then um, when I reallyexamined it, I thought well, I
do get paid well to dosomething.
So there I am, probably a masterof something.
But then I went to the everydaypart of it and went well, let's
see, what do I do every daythat's Mastery?
Or is it just an everydayaverage master?
(05:08):
I'm like, where's the everydaycome in?
Just because that's part ofyour, your title.
And then I thought well, I am amaster probably almost every
day, but then I'm also learningevery day.
So you know, is mastery,continuing to learn.
Is that part of the mastery?
Craig (05:23):
Okay so let me kick things off here, because, by the
way, you are not alone in thatsentiment.
And, it's one of the things,Maury, I said to Debra when we
had a chat before the podcastis, it probably means you're
perfect for the podcast.
What we're starting to realizeis that, Mastery is a very
complicated word and like Craiglooking at Debra and looking at
(05:45):
what you've accomplished thatI'm about to talk about, it
seems obvious from the outside,of course you would be a master.
You've spent decades being aneditor and now a director, but
specifically decades editingsome blockbuster feature films,
right?
Debra (06:00):
Right.
Craig (06:01):
To the outside of that world, to a guy like Craig, of
course it would seem obviousthat this is a person with
mastery, and then what isfascinating is your first
thought is what could I possiblybe a master in?
That is a common experiencethat, we are hearing as we do
these interviews.
Debra (06:19):
I guess maybe what I think is, it's something that
comes natural to you and you,you think less of that, it's not
that big of a deal to you, andthat's probably what I think
mastery is, is something thatcomes natural to you that
you've, practiced and practicedand gotten better at you spent
more, you spent time at doingit.
It seems like that to me wouldbe what Mastery is.
Maury (06:39):
That's an interesting point though that, but that it
started with something that youare good at.
And because of that if somebodysays, Hey, you're good at, you
don't hear the compliment asmuch because it's like, well,
yeah, I just do that thing.
That's easy me.
For me, so I don't hear, extraon it.
Debra (06:53):
You take it for granted that you can do that thing, but
not everyone can.
It's something that noteverybody can do, and you have
different traits than I do, and,and we each have something we
can master.
Craig (07:03):
Okay, but that's all fine and dandy, folks, and our friend
Debra here, you might think thatDebra is an accountant, no knock
on accountants out there, orthat she sells life insurance at
a life insurance seminar, butguess what?
She doesn't.
Debra Neil-Fisher has been aHollywood feature film editor
for decades.
(07:23):
And, Maury's, Craig, don't readall of her credits." but I do
want to say, Debra, how manyfeatures like 35, 40 features?
Debra (07:32):
Yeah, at least.
Those are just the ones thatshow up on IMDB.
I have lists of others that I'veworked on.
Maury (07:37):
Wow.
Craig (07:37):
Right, but I need to say movies like Fried Green
Tomatoes, all the Austin Powersmovies, Saving Silverman,
Without a Paddle, the Hangoverseries, a lot of the comedies,
all the Fifty Shades.
There are women out thereshuddering right now because of
Debra Neil-Fisher.
All the Fifty Shades movies,right?
Debra (07:56):
Yeah.
Craig (07:56):
And a ton, ton more, and then you've become a director.
To us, you.
know, to me, this sounds really,really exciting.
And I also gotta say, I'm happyto introduce you to my friend
Maury.
Who's been an actor for 30years, right?
Who's been in a bunch of movies.
And it's interesting to sit herelike in this like movie
sandwich, having no place, me,like two sides of making a movie
(08:17):
or two sides of this content.
So I just want to say we'rethrilled that you're here,
Debra.
Could you first talk to us abouthow you got started?
How did you get into and createthis incredible career?
Debra (08:29):
Just to begin with, as a kid, I was always a painter and
always working in the art, inarts and visual style more than
verbal.
I'm not a that verbal of aperson, so I'm not a writer
director.
I'm an, editor, director.
Which means I take otherpeople's contents, other
people's words and, and put themeither visually or rearrange
them, whatever.
But I was always visual as akid.
(08:49):
And then I started, I took upphotography in high school and
started shooting photographs andphotojournalism and thought that
I wanted to do that as myprofession.
But then when I um, applied toschools, I got into USC Cinema
School and said, oh if I gotinto that school, I'm gonna go
ahead and try studying cinemaand, and really follow through
with that, so once I wentthrough cinema school at USC, I
(09:11):
got out and I was not surewhether I would be in camera
department because I lovedcamera or whether I would be in
editing or where I would end up,but camera, was a bit hard.
Back then, it was real heavyfilm cameras with film to load
and carry boxes, and I'm notthat big of a person.
So I thought, if you reallywanna be in camera, you're gonna
have to huff it and push hard todo that'cause it's just a
(09:33):
physical job.
And I decided that I might startan editorial, but also editing
is one of the main parts ofstorytelling and filmmaking.
You write the story, you shootthe story, and then you edit the
story.
And those are all three reallyimportant parts of the
storytelling process.
And so once I got intoeditorial, I realized that I was
a crucial part of thefilmmaking.
And it was really a great placefor me specifically to land in.
(09:56):
And then the talents that werenatural to me, which was, I've
always been somebody who's beenable to rearrange and rethink
things.
And that's the natural sort oftalent that sort of lends itself
well to editorial and materialand that exists and sort of
redoing it or figuring anotherway through it or just
reordering it.
And that out to be the key to mysuccess as an editor.
Craig (10:18):
How'd you get your start?
come out of USC.
I mean, and, you're a woman,does that play in?
Was that more difficult?
Debra (10:25):
Yeah.
Back in the day it was a littlebit harder to be a woman in the
industry.
Although, historically there area lot of female editors.
Not a lot, in general there weremore editors than there were in
other departments.
But um, when I first gotstarted, it's hard to get
started in the business, but I'mfrom LA and my father was a
dentist in the Valley and he hada lot of patients that were in
(10:46):
the industry.
I worked for him anyways, duringthe summer, so when I would go
to his office and worked after Igot out of college.
He would say, this is mydaughter.
She, She went to USC, she wantsto be a filmmaker.
And whoever was in and becausehe's dentist and he is, got them
held hostage.
And so it did meet quite a fewpeople that way.
Eventually I didn't get my firstjob that way.
And the first job was through afriend of mine who said uh, I, I
(11:07):
know, a producer coming to town.
He needs somebody on a set tohelp out a PA.
And I said, I'd do it.
So through that, I got my firstjob was an assistant at a
commercial editing company and Ispent a year at that company and
learned a lot there.
But basically when I was meetingpeople through my dad at the
chair, one of his friends andone of his patients was the head
(11:27):
of post-production at FoxStudios.
And so eventually that guy gotme into the union and got me
started in, in, editing.
Rather than non-union, which wasa big deal.
It's, it's really hard to getin, not just this business, but
in to get into the union and allthat.
back then, it was really hard toget into the union.
They had seniority lists androster lists and all that stuff.
(11:48):
So it was very difficult to getin.
So it nepotism.
Basically that's really what itwas.
But that's why when I meet youngfilmmakers and young people
starting out, I'm always likewhoever, you know, even if it's
just an acquaintance, keep atthem and call them you know,
your contact with them is whatthey remember and that's all you
really have.
So keep at it if you'reinterested in trying to get a
job in the business,'cause it'sall about people really.
(12:10):
So, I started at that commercialcompany And I knew that I wanted
to be an editor, but I startedout, you started as an
assistant, you know, so I wascutting sound effects.
And I was cutting, helping cutthe editor's work on things and
cutting commercials and allthat.
Then I started cutting, promoreels and a little bit longer
format stuff.
'cause I knew I really wanted toend up in dramatic format, but I
didn't, couldn't start there.
So I just started workingtowards that and eventually I
(12:33):
got a job cutting a promo fortwo producers and they said to
me um, we're gonna cut our nextmovie on video instead of film.
And we, and we see that you cancut on video.
And I said, yeah, I just learnedthese quarter inch decks.
I can control them.
We figured out how to use'em.
It was very rudimentary.
And they said we want somebodyto edit our film that way cause
we see it's the technology ofthe future.
(12:53):
And so I said, okay, I'd love todo that.
And they go, well you have toget the job first.
And I said, oh, okay.
So they introduced me to thedirector.
'cause the director hires theeditor on the on the pictures,
this person they're gonna workclosest with.
So when I was going to meet thisgentleman, whose name was Gil
Cates, he was head of the DGA atone point.
And so he knew everyone I knew.
(13:14):
So I had all these directors andpeople I knew call him and say
that I was worth meeting andthat I, he should hire me.
So the minute I walked in thedoor, he goes, you got the job.
If you tell people to quitcalling me.
Craig (13:24):
Nice, good.
Debra (13:25):
He said, no, seriously, sit down.
I'm gonna ask you one question.
Just one question.
If you can answer it correctly,you have the job.
And I said, okay.
He said, while we're shooting,when the producers come to you
and say, Hey Deb, can you showus some of the footage that you
know cut together that we'reworking on?
What are you gonna say to them?
I'm not showing'em anythinguntil you say it's okay.
And he goes, okay, you got thejob confidence thing that the
(13:49):
director really should be and isin charge of his film until he's
ready to show the, producers.
But if you don't know thatprotocol, It'd be a problem.
And plus they had introduced meto him, so they were worried
about it.
They were nervous.
He was nervous that I would bein cahoots with the producers.
And it's always about thoseallegiances that happen on the
set for the, for the directorand for the crew.
Who Right?
Maury (14:10):
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Absolutely.
Craig (14:12):
When you look at this, this body of work and, and
you're telling this storylooking back, was there a moment
along the way where, you werepinching yourself, maybe sitting
with a director, maybe it wasbeing a part of your first hit.
Debra (14:27):
I, I, think it's more about like really doing
something well, like I wasworking then.
Then I went on to work with JonAvnet and Jordan Kerner for
quite a few films, and Jon haddirected a film that was about
the Watts Riots before the WattsRiots happened again.
He was doing a historicalpicture about the Watts Riots
and I was cutting this film andJon said to me, Just take the
(14:48):
audio from that and take thepicture from that and, and I'll
come back in an hour and seewhat you can do with that just
to make that work.
And I had put them together andwith some music, and suddenly it
felt like I had elevated thematerial that he shot to another
level.
And the storytelling just becameso much better visually,
audio-wise.
And it was telling the story hehad wanted to tell, but in, in a
(15:09):
way that I had found on my own.
And I thought, that's what thisis about.
This is interesting.
To take something that's justface value and to put putting
them together in a way that madethings elevate to another level
and to tell a story.
That was a beautiful visualstory.
And so at that point I rememberthinking, this is, this is
really cool.
This is what I wanna do.
Craig (15:28):
That's beautiful.
Debra (15:29):
Something about it that was so wonderful.
And then I went on to win anaward, a Cable Ace Award, for
editing that film.
And then at the end of thatceremony, Jon came up to me and
said, I'm gonna do a feature atUniversal, it's called Fried
Green Tomatoes.
And I'd love you to edit that.
So we went on to begin my careeras a feature film editor, which
was great.
Maury (15:47):
How much is your experience or training or
practice as a painter?
Is it a conscious thing sort ofas you're putting the editing
together?
Could you feel like you were,how to ask this, like from
painting, do those two mix inyour mind as you're doing it?
Debra (16:00):
Kind of, it's an impressionistic um, medium.
I feel like film is veryimpressionistic obviously you
have audio to work with too.
You know, not just visuals, butwith the visuals.
You can tell so much of a storyjust by the order those visuals
go in, and so it's very similarand, and composition matters and
what's in the frame and theforeground background.
(16:21):
I think all of that came from mebeing, being very visual and,
and able to speak well visuallyinstead of verbally.
I was never a verbal kid.
It's a very interesting thing.
You meet people who are so goodwith their words and tell
stories well that way, butthat's not me.
I knew always that I could takeimages and the images together
in a certain order would tellthe story better.
(16:41):
Yes, it's related, I think, tothe painting.
'cause I developed that skillearly as a kid.
Craig (16:46):
What about like genre?
I remember like that firstAustin Powers movie.
I mean, that's one of thefunniest movies ever.
Do you think of yourself interms of a genre or do you think
of yourself in terms of, no, myjob is to help a director tell
whatever story it is.
Debra (17:01):
No, I really feel like I can do any genre, but you do get
pigeonholed.
But I don't mind beingpigeonholed as a comedy editor.
I enjoy comedy.
I was raised in a family thattold jokes all the time.
My dad's a dentist and he hadpeople, in the chair, and he was
always just telling them jokesthe whole time.
So I'm used to, in fact, I can'teven go to a doctor now unless
they're a funny doctor.
What's wrong with you?
(17:22):
You don't make jokes aboutwhat's going on here.
And That's just me and what mylife is like.
So I mean, once I got involvedin comedy, I mean, I like drama
too, and, and Fried GreenTomatoes is a dramatic film
also, and I don't mind doingthat.
I just like the everyday livingwith a comedy is so much fun and
to make people laugh, it's greatto make people laugh.
(17:42):
and I found that once we startedthe process of previewing and
seeing people laugh at just theway you've put something
together is so great.
Craig (17:49):
Oh, that must be fantastic.
Debra (17:52):
That's the way I'm pigeonholed as a director also,
but I don't mind it because Ilike, you know, making people
laugh and it's just fun to, towork in comedy.
It's just great.
It's a great way to spend yourday.
Maury (18:01):
As long as I've been in the business and it's been a
while now, I'm embarrassed tosay how long it's taken me to
appreciate the value.
Isn't even a strong enough wordof an editor that that piece of,
and I loved how you put it.
There was the writing, theshooting, and then the editing.
Finally after shadowing somedirectors and watching directors
cut in their heads and seeingthe value of that, but the way
(18:23):
you can change a story, elevatea story, yeah, I'm embarrassed
to admit it took me long toappreciate how amazing it is,
what a good editor can do.
Debra (18:31):
It's sadly such an underappreciated job in the film
industry.
They say, historically that theeditors were supposed to line up
with the directors and be in theDGA, but they decided to go with
IATSE.
Instead and be with theteamsters, which is a big
mistake because editors arestorytellers and they do, they
are the next phase of writers,directors, and editors make the
(18:51):
film.
You're right, it's a veryunderappreciated group of
storytellers.
Really.
Maury (18:56):
You can take bad footage, mediocre to bad footage, and
change it into something that'sa whole new vision.
Craig (19:03):
But what's fascinating, I think from the outside is like
Maury.
You show up to shoot a scene,and Debra might not start
working on that scene for monthsand months and months.
There's a lot of space inbetween when you work, and then
when you work.
Is that true?
Debra (19:19):
Sometimes it's the next day.
They shoot something, the nextday, I see it it's called
dailies.
They come to me and I startlooking at the footage.
you're right, it's not refineduntil months and months down the
road.
It's refined, and refined, andrefined, and refined.
Eventually becomes the scenethat it is or is not in the film
at all sometimes, that takes awhile, that process.
And it should take a while.
We should never, hurry theprocess either.
That's part of the problem, isthat sometimes these schedules
(19:41):
are so tight, you don't reallyhave time to really live with
the material And make it thebest that it can be.
And that's why, we start adding,getting into the point of first
there's the director's cut, andthen there's the producers, then
there's the studio.
You have to go through all thoselevels of people to react to it.
But maybe when it's a tightened,shortened schedule, it gets
hairy and crazy to just finish afilm.
Craig (20:00):
So what about that?
When you're in the midst of it,In a general sense, do you know
when you're working on somethinggood?
Debra (20:07):
Sometimes you have no idea, and sometimes you think
it's amazing.
Like It's, very difficult totell.
It's not some, it's like, it'slike Maury for you on set.
Like sometimes people think thisis the best stuff I've ever read
or I've worked on, and suddenlyit's nothing.
It becomes nothing.
And then other stuff that you,you know, work on and you, and
you didn't, you thought it waskind of good.
It When it becomes a whole andbecomes finished, it becomes
(20:28):
something better than it was onthe page.
And that's really why theindustry is so crazy because no
one can guess.
If we all could, we'd be sowealthy, you know?
Craig (20:36):
Right.
It's hard to make somethinggood.
Debra (20:38):
I mean, I just worked on Barbie and we knew that it was
an IP, but honestly did not knowhow many people would come
because it's really, is it forlittle girls?
No, not really.
Is it for older women?
Yes, probably.
But is it for girl, girls intheir twenties.
turned out there's something foreverybody in the film, which,
which added to,
Craig (20:57):
Wait, Wait, wait, wait, wait, hang on, newsflash.
Did you edit Barbie?
Debra (21:00):
Yeah, I worked in Barbie for nine weeks at the beginning
of this year.
Craig (21:03):
Are you kidding me?
That movie is so fantastic.
It is so great.
Congratulations!
Debra (21:08):
Thanks!
Craig (21:09):
That, is so exciting.
I didn't even know that.
that wasn't even on the page.
Debra (21:12):
No, It's not on the page.
Craig (21:13):
Oh, you're full of surprises.
Maury (21:14):
My wife works at Mattel she's going to be very excited.
That is a film that blows meaway, get a little tongue tied.
You said you were nervous alittle bit at the beginning of
this podcast.
I think it took me a littlewhile to realize, Debra, that
I'm a little nervous too,actually talking to you.
Just so you know, just so youknow.
Which is excitement.
That movie, that movie...
I never want to spoil a moviefor someone, but that was a
(21:34):
movie, which I think is atestament to it of really
wanting to, let everyone havetheir own experience with it.
Debra (21:40):
Yeah, for sure! That's why I say the reason it's so
successful, I believe, is'causethere's something there for
everybody.
There's a little something inthere that everyone can hook
onto.
It grew into its own thing, itjust became what it was.
And there's a, huge audience forit, which is amazing and in many
countries and many languages.
Craig (21:55):
Wait, so I got distracted when you said the Barbie word,
and then I blacked out, and Ididn't hear anything you said?
Because I'm not, I'm
Maury (22:02):
He does, he does this Debra every once in a while,
don't worry about it.
Craig (22:05):
I do blackout.
Hang on! What was your pointafter you said the Barbie word
and I blacked out?
Was it that you were saying youdidn't know how big it would be?
Debra (22:13):
At first surprise.
And then I went, oh, of course,once I, once I thought about it
for a second, I went, yes.
'cause we, even when we werepreviewing the film, people
would line up for hours ahead tosee, cause they wanted to see
it.
So it has a built-in audience,it has a built-in who wanna see,
they have it has the wanna see,but if you don't deliver on
wanna see, then no one's goingto keep coming.
So it actually delivers on thatlevel too.
(22:34):
yeah.
Craig (22:35):
That's exciting.
Maury (22:35):
I'd like to sidetrack a little bit, cause this is
something that I think we'retrying to, I always want to
remember to do.
And we've talked a little bitabout your painting because
we're going to have invite youto be on the podcast because we
know you as this, your resumesand editor is incredible, but
what I'm really interested toabout people are what are the
other things that influencethem, other hobbies, other
things where they've put in timeand effort, passions in their
(22:56):
lives that, maybe affect theirday job.
So I'm wondering if there'sthings like that, whether it's
the photography or the paintingyou keep doing.
Debra (23:04):
I was thinking of that, because I grew as growing up.
I did painting and I played thepiano, did music and all those
are really important to aneditor.
'cause you work in sound, youwork in pictures.
As a little kid, used torearrange the furniture all the
time.
In fact, I wanted to be aninterior designer.
I wanted to be somebody who,redid rooms and, and I love,
it's home, it's a hobby too.
(23:25):
It's, almost a problem.
I'm constantly redoing some partof our house visually because,
and I've known directors andother people in the business who
have that same talent.
It's something about redoingsomething or looking at
something from a differentperspective.
That's really helped my editingcareer a lot.
If, you look at, you can do itwith any, anything.
You can do it with your life.
You can do it with a room offurniture.
You can do it the pictures onthe, the words on the computer,
(23:48):
the pictures that you are inyour photo album.
It's the same thing.
It's looking at something from adifferent perspective you've
been looking at.
You could just take them out,throw'em on the floor in a
different order.
Put'em together and they would,they would be different.
And I think that helps youproceed, go forward and find
other ways through things.
And I think that's one of thethings you're talking about is
what in my life also helped mebecome a master at this?
Craig (24:11):
Hmm.
That's fascinating.
You know, one thing I wanted tosay, Maury, that, and Deb, I'd
love to have you riff on this alittle bit.
We had another guest that wassimilar, Deb, and I mentioned
this to you, that you also havea unique job.
And a unique skill set andunique mastery because it's not
telling your story.
It's like somebody elseupstream, whoever has a story
(24:34):
that has been hatched, and thenthey bring it to you.
And in a way, your job is tohelp them.
Tell their story.
Debra (24:42):
As an editor, I said before you work for the
director.
So in that case, as the, as theeditor of the film, you're
trying to help that directortell the story that they wanna
tell.
There's the writer who wrote thestory, but then the director
realizes it visually and thenyou take it with him and it
becomes another entity.
And so that all the, all thewhile you're working on a film,
you're helping somebody tell thestory they wanna tell.
(25:04):
It's not, it's not the version Iwant, I mean, I have an opinion
about what I think plays, but Ialways frame it within the, in
the idea of this is the storythey wanted to tell.
This is the story they had setout to tell and how to get that
across in a more succinct.
More interesting.
A better way of doing the samething they're trying to do.
Craig (25:22):
And how do you do that in the moment?
You might be master ofrearranging things, but in a
moment, how do I stay focused onhelping them tell their story
and not make this what I thinkthe scene should be, but what I
think they think it should be?
Debra (25:36):
Because what I, what I, often say is, what would we like
this to be like?
Sometimes you have to approachthe material as if you're
looking at it from theirperspective and you say to them,
okay, in a perfect world, whatwere you trying to communicate
here?
Then you go, oh, oh, I seeyou're trying to tell that
story.
Well, You're not exactly tellingthat story.
If we put these in this order,or if I use this voice first,
(25:57):
and then we use these images, orwe say titles here because we
need to know where we are.
Depends on what part of thestory you're telling or where
you're working.
Like for example, when you workon a story, the beginning, the
middle, and end.
Sometimes the setup is not quiteclear enough.
Sometimes it's the middle of themovie that gets a little
muddled, and sometimes it's theend.
You're not sending'em out withthe right message.
(26:18):
So you look at each section ofthe film and say, okay, how are
we gonna be able to tell thestory?
You wanna tell, but in a clear,easier way?
Or is the complication that.
you're trying to come across thepoint of the story?
Like, Is it complicated becauseyou want it to be that way and
that you're trying to get themconfused or send them that
direction?
(26:38):
'cause if I take my perspectiveon it, that's a different
perspective and that's where thedirector role comes in.
So if I'm gonna direct a film,I'm gonna take somebody's words
off a page and decide this isthe perspective I want to tell
the story from.
And then I have an editor helpme do that.
Once they see the footage, I'll,I'll say to them, oh, that's an
interesting way of saying thesame thing that I was gonna say.
(27:00):
And I've had directors say thatto me many times.
Oh, that's an interesting way.
Telling that joke.
I've never thought of tellingthat joke that way or, or
telling that story that way.
Craig (27:10):
You mentioned, one with Seth MacFarlane.
Tell us about the joke thing.
Debra (27:14):
I did, it was just when I first started working for him,
it, it often happens with peoplethat I work with.
They think that I'm coming in asa messenger with the studio
notes, so sometimes they thinkI'm coming in with an agenda.
But what the studio has figuredout, and most of the studio
people I work with have figuredout is that if they let me go in
on my own and just start sayingmy opinion it's worth showing
and the filmmakers areinterested in hearing it.
(27:36):
So when I sat down with SethMcFarlane, he was looking, he
goes, I think I just need tolook at these jokes a couple
times.
'cause I'm not sure how you cameup with these ideas.
Like he and his way had the onlyway to tell the joke was one
way.
And once I showed him anotherway to tell the same joke, he
was like, that's amazing.
I hadn't thought of that.
So it was very interesting tosit with somebody and I also
think it's very interesting tobe with comedians because they
(27:59):
do have a very strongperspective on the world.
But then once you show themanother way to say the joke,
they're like, oh, that's funnytoo.
You know, It's, it's interestingbecause you don't wanna upstage
anybody.
You're not there to upstageanybody either.
You're just there to show'em analternate and another way to, to
do the same joke.
It's very fun.
Maury (28:16):
I, that's sort of, I was thinking about, picking battles,
when do you, have you ever putyour foot down and said, no,
this is really it?
Debra (28:23):
It's not really my job to do that.
I'm there to show alternativesand give, give lots of options.
I call it options and show themoptions and say well, if that
isn't working for you, thenlet's try another version.
And sometimes those jokes don'twork.
You go to a preview and you seeit and it doesn't quite work.
You go, let's go back to thedrawing board and try it another
way.
What's interesting about workingwith Sacha Baron Cohen, who I
(28:43):
collaborate quite a bit with, isthat Sacha loves the comedy, the
science of comedy.
He loves to take all the datathat we find out at each of the
screenings and put the jokes upagainst each other and go the
time we played it with thiscrowd in this version, it got
the best score.
So let's take that joke version,put it with the next joke, which
was from this other screening,and we start piecing things
(29:06):
together from the best versionsthat he's decided because he's
very serious about the comedyand how it played in the room,
and he has somebody who sits inthe audience and judges the
jokes on a scale of one to five.
She writes a number down to asto how that joke played in that
room, then we take the datalater and look at it in the
editing room and put the filmtogether.
It's very interesting.
We call it comedy science.
It's really fun.
Craig (29:25):
And that's also really like a beautiful thing because
that's saying, you all in theediting room may have your fancy
ideas, but it's really how itplays.
It's, it's what makes peoplelaugh that will reign supreme in
your choices.
Let's not think what we think'sfunny.
It's what do they, what willgive them the best experience.
And we're going to put thattogether.
(29:46):
And that's, that's, cool.
I think that's super cool.
Debra (29:48):
It's really important.
So previewing process is veryimportant to comedies.
You can be arrogant about yourcomedy, but in the end, if
nobody's laughing at the joke.
Craig (29:55):
How funny is it?
Debra, when you're working on aproject, it's getting stressful,
the deadline's coming, andyou're blocked how do you find
your skills in unblocking andnavigating a tight situation?
Debra (30:10):
That's interesting because what I usually do, and
it'll come to trust, is to dosome, do a version of something.
Leave it alone.
Go home, go to bed, and wake upin, I usually wake up in the
middle of the night and then Ihave a, a revelation about how
to fix it, write it down, comeback to the office, fix it, and
then it's fixed.
It's something that comes to meand I trust that now first
you're like, oh, I don't know.
(30:30):
It makes you so anxious thatyou're not sure you're gonna be
able to solve a problem.
But honestly, there's always ananswer, and often it comes to me
at the time when your head, mymind is resting or, or not
focused on the problem.
That hard thing where you'rereally focused on something and
sometimes the answer isn'tcoming, mostly because you're so
focused on it.
So sometimes just letting it goor going for a walk or even
(30:51):
going to bed and waking up willhelp me solve a problem,
especially with somethingcreative like that.
Craig (30:55):
I was going to say real quick before we move off of this
incredible resume here, what areyour, what are the top three
things you're most proud of whenyou think that you've worked on?
Debra (31:03):
Let's see, well definitely Fried Green Tomatoes.
Probably Heatwave is up there atthe top too, but also, but I
would say I love the Hangover.
And the Hangover was such agreat film to be part of I mean,
it's, it's a classic forever.
Craig (31:16):
Hey, by the way, Debra, I do have some crossover.
I was at the actual bachelorparty that became the story.
There's our crossover rightthere.
Ture story folks.
I went on that, bachelor partywhere we lost the guy who was a
movie producer and that is theorigin of the movie.
That Debra edited.
So I was there at the beginning.
(31:37):
You were there at the end.
Maury (31:38):
That's a whole other podcast.
Craig (31:40):
Yeah.
Debra, you can interview me forthat podcast.
Maury (31:42):
Yeah, that's going to be, that's next, next week's
episode.
Debra.
I think it's hard.
It's hard for us to say, oh, I'ma master, right?
One, because I think there's anego thing there, but two,
because it also doesn't, maybethere are moments where we feel
mastery and we can see that andthe value, but then it's always
changing and growing and there'smore.
But I, I would think that maybeyou'd work with some people that
you would deem masters.
Debra (32:04):
Yeah, there's directors that I've worked with that I,
that I think are brilliantdirectors.
I've worked with a lot of reallyamazing people.
I worked with Jay Roach and, JonAvnet's amazing.
I worked with Todd Phillips.
He's very, very smart director.
They're just very, veryintelligent, sharp, people who
are constantly focused andworking and you learn so much
from working with the peoplelike that.
Craig (32:24):
What are the characteristics of those people?
Like what do they possess thatmakes that word fit for them?
Debra (32:30):
It's kind of individual, I think.
They are people who are focusedand they're very driven and all
of those characteristics, butthey're also creative,
interesting, people that aresome verbal, some visual, some
each have all their owndifferent traits.
And those sort of come out inthe films that some are
comedians, some aren't, and thatcomes out in their films.
You can see the style that theylean towards.
(32:52):
Jay Roach is funny because he'spolitical and he's a comedian
too.
He is funny and he has, so heis, he's often blending those
two things.
In his films or, or going onedirection or the other.
But you can see each of themhave their own styles and
that's, what makes them unique.
Maury (33:06):
Debra, you're starting to, starting to direct.
Is that new?
And if you always wanted to dothat, and I know sort of in
Hollywood, there's often the, Icame to do this thing, but I
ended up doing this thing and,we follow it as we go.
And that's why the stories hereare amazing.
Have you always wanted todirect?
Debra (33:22):
I have, I've always wanted to direct and I always
thought I've been so good athelping other people tell their
stories.
Is there a version of me doingthat on my own?
I really just wasn't given theopportunities and thought I have
to, now I have to make thatopportunity for myself.
And that is part of whatdirecting is, is making those
opportunities happen.
It's different than editing.
Editing.
You're hired to do something,directors have to go out there
(33:42):
and get the project, find it andmake it happen.
Find a producer to help you makeit happen, to find the money to
get it done.
And so it's a different kind ofskillset that I hadn't really
worked in.
But then in the last 10 years, Ilearned it.
And have done it and thenactually got a chance to direct
a film in 2020 in the middle ofthe pandemic, which is even
crazier.
We went to Oklahoma, which iseven weirder.
(34:03):
It was the election year and wewent to Oklahoma and shot a film
in 20 days with Eva Longoria andMatt Walsh.
It's called Unplugging, if youwanna see it on Hulu.
It's very funny.
a couple that go away for theweekend without their phones and
try to unplug and get back toeach other.
Craig (34:17):
Hahaha, I love it.
Debra (34:19):
And so I got the opportunity to direct that film
and it was so fun and so great,so I really wanna do it again.
But it is like a very specialopportunity to get, to be able
to do that in this townespecially.
It's just, it's a hard thingbecause there's a lot of
directors And there are a lot ofstorytellers out there who wanna
tell stories.
In a different way, it's hard toget those jobs, it's a difficult
thing to do, but I'm trying, I'mworking on it.
(34:41):
And plus for women, they'regiving us opportunities now,
which is great.
I have a lot more opportunitiesto be did before, so that's
helpful.
Craig (34:46):
Alright, so in your opinion, so now if we move away
from, from you as the master,which we think you are, which I
think you are.
We like to ask, do you thinkanybody can achieve mastery?
Is it mastery something thatpeople have in them innately?
Or is mastery something that canbe acquired?
Debra (35:05):
My opinion is that you start with something that you're
talented at, but I think itrequires hard work, which I
always say work begets more workso just keep working, and more
work will come your way.
And the more you work, the morehours you put in, the better
you'll get at whatever it isyou're trying to do.
And then I think it is true thatbased on the talent that you're
(35:26):
born with, but I also think thatyou're constantly learning from
others if you're not willing tolearn and keep learning and
being aware of what's going onaround you and seeing the, the
advances of your job and yourtechnique, your style,
whatever's happening in theworld that you're in, then
you're gonna be stuck and you'renot gonna continue to be a
master at what you I don't, Idon't believe that's possible.
Maury (35:46):
Do you have a film or something that you look towards
to be your muse or yourinspiration or?
Debra (35:52):
It depends on what I'm working on.
Like right now I'm trying todirect five different projects.
I have five different scriptsthat I'm juggling to get actors
on and financing for, and youknow, it's all that tough game
of, you have to be a produceralso.
But I work with producers forsure.
But each film then has its ownstyle and that I think it can
lean towards.
So I, I have specific stuff andeach project is that way too.
(36:14):
If I'm editing, then you areworking towards whatever that
director's thought that film issupposed to be like, or, they're
trying to make it similar to.
just hard to be general.
Maury (36:24):
Yeah.
that makes sense.
What you're doing will be acertain inspiration.
Of course.
Debra (36:27):
Yeah, exactly.
I could say I love the MartinScorsese films and I always
wanna make a film like that, sothat could be something, or, you
know, filmmakers that I like,but it's always, you know, or,
or various filmmakers that Ilike.
But yeah.
Maury (36:40):
Yeah.
Craig (36:41):
What we've learned from people listening to the podcast
is they love something they cantake away from it.
Into their own life.
And you've mentioned a couplethings here, but I'm wondering
do you see an application forall of us?
Debra (36:56):
I absolutely do.
I absolutely think that ifyou're, let's say you're helping
a friend through a problem or asituation, coming at it from a
different perspective becauseyou're not in, it always helps
solve the problem.
and I think that if everyone hasthe ability and it's not easy to
do, to step back and say in aperfect world, what would I want
this to be?
Or what, what I, what would Ireally?
hope this to be like?
(37:17):
Or to say if this was adifferent situation, what could
I, what could it be?
Or if I was to attack it from adifferent angle.
So it's always constantlylooking at things from a
different perspective, and thathelps to reach out to other
people that helps youcommunicate with other people
and say, hey, maybe you'll lookat my thing for me and help me
get through this problem or inlife, in or in work, or whatever
(37:38):
you're jammed up in.
And that is, the way that Ibring something to, each
situation is that not just lookat it from where you are, from
maybe from where you're sittingor from where you're sitting, it
really helps you get throughthings.
Craig (37:51):
And also, I mean, it's interesting.
I've done some editing.
I understand the basics ofediting is, they're different
components.
Like you said, there's differentshots and there's audio one and
two and three, and there's, thisand that and to deconstruct
something into its elements,look at it a different way, and
rebuild it.
Like, you're saying, can producea different result, like when we
(38:12):
all feel stuck in our lives, orstuck in a relationship, or
stuck in a career, if youdistill out the elements, look
at them, and rebuild them adifferent way, you're telling
the joke, in a way that thecomedian never thought of.
Debra (38:24):
Yeah.
I always say things have to earntheir way in.
If you took everything out anddecided only the crucial things
could come in or be part of whatyou're working on, I often start
with the scene that way,especially if something's
already been cut.
I start with this idea idea ideaof like, what could I just keep
the simplest form of it in what,what has to be there?
And then the added stuff, youstart to go maybe I like this.
(38:47):
You start to decipher why stuffis in.
So it really helps to take, tosay to something, just to keep
the, the most important thingin, not the junk, not the extra
stuff, you know?
Maury (38:57):
I love that.
Craig (38:58):
That does feel like a universal life strategy right
there.
What must be in, we cancomplicate everything by putting
too much in, can't we?
Maury (39:06):
You have the instinct sometimes that you need to blow
everything up too.
And there's a shakeup that'svaluable, but no, there's still
going to be some essentialpieces on which you hang.
Debra (39:15):
Go into your closet and just take out all the stuff
doesn't really matter and justpick a few things and start with
those.
You can do it with anything, anyroom, any place,
Craig (39:23):
Right?
Debra (39:23):
your own life.
You can just do it with thatstart over.
Maury (39:26):
That's great.
Craig (39:26):
George Carlin had that bit about stuff.
I always think about your stuff,our stuff, your stuff, my stuff,
all the stuff in the garage.
You can't let go of your stuff.
Debra (39:35):
That's what drives my family crazy.
'cause when I'm not editing, I'mdoing it around the house.
I'm always like editing thisdrawer, that closet, this piece
of this person's room, thatroom.
What can we redo in the house?
My husband drives him crazy.
Craig (39:46):
That's the way your brain works is to see something and
then see it a different way andbreak it down and build it back
up.
Now knowing you, that makessense to me.
Debra (39:55):
It never hurts.
It's the same elements.
They're still there.
That's what's hard to understandsometimes for the directors that
you work with, because when Iwork with the director, they
think once it's out, it's out.
No, that's not true at all.
It can come right back!
Craig (40:06):
Okay.
Last big question.
In your opinion, what are thethree keys to mastery?
Debra (40:12):
Okay, so the three keys to mastery are
what you know and love, and keeplearning others.
Craig (40:20):
Debra.
I think you're a master.
I think you didn't know it, butI think you are.
I applaud you for coming on.
I know you were somebody who'slike your work is about helping
somebody else, but you have sucha great smile and you, you
clearly have a great joy andhappiness about who you are, the
work you do, how you get tospend your time.
(40:40):
And It's.
just awesome to be a part of,you know, it's, you've made me
laugh.
I've laughed my ass off some ofthese movies.
Thank you the jokes.
On behalf of millions of peoplelaughing their ass off because
of you, we appreciate it becauseI love a good comedy and you are
great at this.
And I'm so happy to see yousmile when you talk about it
(41:03):
because you should.
I don't work in Hollywoodanymore.
I left a long time ago, but, I'mputting all of my positive mojo
right now that Maury Sterlingand Debra Neil-Fisher work
together.
I'm putting this together in myhead right now.
I'm making a project.
My powers of magic are fairlylow, but I do want you to know
if you feel something, that'swhat I'm doing right now.
(41:24):
I'm, putting it
Maury (41:25):
I don't know.
I, Debra, I don't
Craig (41:26):
Look, at these fingers.
Maury (41:27):
strange.
I don't know if I actually
Debra (41:28):
I'm buying.
It.
I'm buying.
It.
Feels good.
Maury (41:30):
I'll buy in too.
Debra (41:31):
Sounds great.
Maury (41:32):
Good.
Craig (41:32):
Debra, thank you so much for taking the time to be on
Everyday Masters.
We adore you.
Thank you for all the laughs,all the wonderful work.
How was it?
Was it like being in your dad'sdentist chair?
Debra (41:43):
No, not at all.
No, not at all.
It's great.
It's very enjoyable.
You got me relaxed really fast.
Thank you.
Craig (41:48):
And I hope to see you again, in person sometime soon.
Maury (41:51):
Thanks for making the time.
it was fantastic!
Debra (41:53):
Thank you so much.
Yeah, it's really fun.
I enjoy it a lot.
for having me on you guys!
Craig (42:02):
Okay.
Maury.
Debra Neil-Fisher my mind, clearmaster of editing feature films.
When I think about those films,I think about like the hangover
films and the Austin Powerfilms, I think about all the
laughs that she has deliveredand now really understanding how
she contributes and participatesall that kind of stuff, What a
(42:23):
cool thing.
And then, oh, by the way, shedrops.
Oh yeah.
And I, And I worked on Barbie,like wasn't even in the list of
things I was looking at.
Maury (42:32):
Yeah, no, I know and not to be argumentative, but to
argue with you uh, not evenreally argue with you.
Craig (42:38):
How not be me and against me?
Are you arguing against me orwith me?
If you're arguing with me,doesn't that mean you're not
arguing?
Maury (42:45):
I'm arguing against you.
Well, No, this thing of like,'cause'cause I think you have a
tendency to, to want to say yesmaster and I'm finding I have a
tendency to go well, but if theydon't say it, then, this concept
of what is, how can she not be?
But she also doesn't feel likeshe's there yet?
know, One of the last componentsof her three things about
mastery is it's that piece ofyou still stay curious and open
(43:09):
to learning.
Like you, you never arrive.
And I think we've talked aboutthat many, many times now of, so
from the outside we can go,yeah, come on.
Are you kidding me?
You're, this is, incredible.
But that internal thing of hereven being a little, like why,
why am I gonna do this podcastwith these two weird people?
I don't know.
Craig (43:26):
Speak for yourself.
Maury (43:26):
No, I, I was speaking for both of us.
Craig (43:28):
Okay.
My Wrapper-Upper, kind of likethe Eric Bailey interview.
I am realizing there are peoplethat have mastery.
In helping other people expressthemselves, like we met Eric
Bailey and he really sees hisrole as being somebody to remove
obstacles and free up an artist,a musician in that case to be as
creative as possible.
(43:49):
And then we meet Debra.
She is very much the same thing.
She is very much in service to,for the most part, she now has
been a director, but a lot ofher career has been helping
somebody else tell their story,that's a really neat thing to
think about.
She doesn't sit there saying,Hey, what do I think I want to
(44:10):
do in this moment?
She sits with the director andthese other folks and says, what
is your vision?
Tell me what you are trying tocommunicate.
She could sometimes say, Hey, Itried this a few different ways.
Which one helps you tell whatyou're trying to say?
But it's really in service tosomebody else.
And, I am struck by that there'sa huge humility and there's a
(44:32):
huge sense in knowing your spotin the bigger machine, if you
will, or the bigger production,which is like, my role here is
to help you do that.
So that, that's really mytakeaway and I'm, I find it
exciting that we've, it's comeup more than once in these
interviews.
What about you?
Maury (44:47):
I'm gonna go spiritual on it in the sense of, she talked
about editing her own, likerecreating and, redoing her
closets, her home.
She's in a kind of, in aconstant state of rearrangement.
And how that creates a lifecreates a different story and
how you can be, it was, therewas something to that, that
that's not what I do.
I sort of like to get everythingset and then leave it there.
(45:08):
I guess that really makes methink I'm, I'm thinking about in
sort of spiritual terms andmeaning like Who's my inner
editor, you know, that peopletalk about and who's editing my
life?
Do I have an editor who's tryingto really tell a great story?
Or do I have an editor who'strying to tell sort of an awful
story?
Taking that, viewpoint on and italso just from, I felt naive in
a way of re-app appreciating thenature of filmmaking and just
(45:31):
how important the editor is.
Assembling this massive amountof information into the story
that really works and, and sortof the science of filmmaking.
She was wonderful.
And just to come back to her,three components of mastery:
work hard, use what you know andlove and, keep learning from
others.
Just really simple and reallyclear, especially use what you
(45:52):
know and love, like start thereand then grow from that.
Craig (45:57):
I need to circle back and amplify that one idea.
'cause I think we did ask aboutsomething people could into
their own lives.
And I have thought about itsince meeting Debra and talking
to her is, when one is stuck,break the situation down to its
essential components.
Then add the things back in.
Add back in what must be backin.
(46:19):
And so, you know, you and I liketo talk spiritual life,
parenting career, whatever thatapproach when one is stuck does
feel like a high level way tohave a different perspective,
look it a different way, butjust add back the essential
elements first.
That is a, pretty cool life hackin a way from a, from a
(46:40):
Hollywood movie editor.
Maury (46:41):
Yup.
Craig (46:41):
All right, my brother.
Wonderful episode.
You're a wonderful human andyour hair is just, a phenomenon
of follicle ness.
I like that.
That's like your album coverright there.
Listeners, you can't see it, butit's just Maury's spiky hair
with a light that looks like asun, and I call it Hair Sun".
(47:02):
.All right, everybody, we willsee you next time on Everyday...
Maury (47:06):
Masters.
Craig (47:10):
Okay.
Uh, My stop.
Please stop coughing when No,you catching, you're ruining my
take.
Maury (47:16):
But are you catching that on the, are you catching that,
is that, I mean, is that, areyou catching that on the mic
when I cough?
Craig (47:21):
Yeah.
When you make noise outta yourbody and there's a microphone,
it catches it.
Yeah.
Maury (47:26):
Okay.
You go.
Craig (47:26):
Any, any noises coming outta your face hole?
Are you gonna get caught?
Maury (47:30):
Oh
Craig (47:31):
Yeah.
So if you think thoughts, theywon't get caught unless you.
Unless you put wind behind yourvocal cords.
Maury (47:37):
Okay.
Craig (47:38):
Cool?
We clear on that?
Copy.
(48:08):
Wait, I wanna show you somethingreal quick.
You're gonna find this fun.
What happens if I just take thisoff?
What Fan, fan, Fan, fan, fan,fan.
Feeling the doo, doo, doo, doo,doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo.
Okay, check it out.
I always say things have to earn their way in.
(00:02):
If you took everything out anddecided only the crucial things
could come in or be part of whatyou're working on, I often start
with the scene that way,especially if something's
already been cut.
I start with this idea of whatcould I just keep the simplest
form what has to be there?
Maury (00:17):
I love that.
Song (00:19):
Welcome to Everyday Masters, the show where we seek
to understand mastery.
People who have it, people whotry for it, people who struggle
with it, and how we all manifestit in our own lives.
Welcome to Everyday Masters.
Everyday Masters.
Everyday Masters.
Everyday Masters.
Everyday masters, everydaymasters.
Craig (00:44):
Hey everybody welcome to this episode of Everyday
Masters.
My name is Craig Diamond.
Maury (00:49):
What's up Craig?
I'm Maury Sterling.
And we're really glad you'rejoining us this week on our
show.
Craig (00:55):
This week we are really excited! She is a big time
Hollywood movie editor and weare talking about big feature
films all of the Hangover filmsand all of the 50 Shades films,
and a zillion films.
It's really, really interesting'cause as I approached her,
Maury.
She was pretty reluctant.
(01:16):
She was like, no, same old thingthat we're hearing with so many
people.
She's like, I just don't, I,there's so many people that are
better than me.
And I was just blown away by thefact that at this, resume and
the films that this guest hasworked on, I was like, wow I
cannot believe you could do whatyou do for that long.
Get recognized, be a part ofsuch successes and still, I'm
(01:38):
not exactly sure.
I I, I'm the person you need tobe talking to.
Maury (01:41):
Right.
Yeah.
Now we've run a lot with people.
That's sort of the attitude, andI mean, I certainly relate to
it.
I and I, I don't know, maybeIt'd be weird to maybe talk to
the person who's like, yes, I amthe king, but we'll see.
I don't know.
Craig (01:53):
Real quick, on a personal level what, what are you working
on these days with regard tomastery?
Where's your head at?
Maury (01:58):
Where is my head?
This week was a lot about sortof how I look at my life that,
what's the lens I'm using thisweek, which is a recurring theme
all the time thinking aboutthat.
But this week it felt very clearthat if I looked at my life
through the lens of what am Idoing today?
You know, the the old adage ofif I'm just staying in the
process and staying out ofresults.
I'm like, wow.
All right.
Cool.
I feel great about what I'mtrying to do each day and where
(02:20):
I'm applying my energy and howI'm to, how I'm trying to be in
my relationships, how I'm tryingto be as a dad, how I'm treat,
my body and health, how I'mtrying to treat work.
As soon as I started spinningoff and do where I am in my own
gradation of success versusfailure or moving the needle,
not moving the needle.
All the ways I think aboutthings, it started getting kind
of crappy pretty quickly.
(02:41):
And that was an, a reallyinteresting distinction to kind
of see the difference betweenthe two.
What about you?
Craig (02:47):
Mine was kind of a layup in the sense that know, we're
talking to Debra Neil-Fisher,and she's an editor.
I spent a lot of time editingthis podcast.
And so there was kind of an artimitating life kind of, what is
an editor, you know, an editoris, is trying to tell stories.
You know, An editor trying toget rid of not needed.
(03:09):
An editor is trying to take anaudience on a bit of a journey,
interesting to edit the thingthat has a master editor in it,
I guess is what I would say,which is kind of fun to
consider.
And then kind of feeling like,you know, Maury I, get feedback
from the guests on the showthat, that they really enjoy it.
And so, I do think you and I aregaining a bit of mastery in
(03:32):
making for a welcomingenvironment.
So here we have this personthat's a master in editing
feature films, working withthese A-list directors and
producers and stuff.
And you and I are able to havethis like really friendly, nice
conversation, which frankly Ithink she, some people are kind
of nervous to do it and I thinkyou and I are good at creating
an environment where peoplewanna be a part of this.
Maury (03:53):
And I like that too.
'cause that actually confirmskind of what I was thinking
about.
this week, let's stick with thattheme of which story are you
telling?
You know, are you, are youtelling the tragedy?
Are you telling the, not evenoptimistic, just sort of the
practicality one.
Like, which story are youtelling anyways?
Craig (04:06):
Alright, so without further ado, let's cut right to
it.
You get what I did right there.
See how I did that Let's cutright to the guest this week.
Debra Neil-Fisher.
Debra (04:21):
Hi, nice to see you guys.
Maury (04:23):
Thanks for
Debra (04:23):
I'm so happy that you invited me.
The truth is I really was kindof nervous about being invited
onto a podcast.
I haven't done one before, soI'm a little, uh, a little
worried, you know, a littlenervous.
Craig (04:34):
Well, don't, don't worry.
And that actually segues into afirst question we have.
So when you were asked to be ona podcast called Everyday
Masters, was that experiencelike for you?
Debra (04:45):
First I said, why me?
Of course, I was like, I'm notsure what I have mastery in.
And then um, when I reallyexamined it, I thought well, I
do get paid well to dosomething.
So there I am, probably a masterof something.
But then I went to the everydaypart of it and went well, let's
see, what do I do every daythat's Mastery?
Or is it just an everydayaverage master?
(05:08):
I'm like, where's the everydaycome in?
Just because that's part ofyour, your title.
And then I thought well, I am amaster probably almost every
day, but then I'm also learningevery day.
So you know, is mastery,continuing to learn.
Is that part of the mastery?
Craig (05:23):
Okay so let me kick things off here, because, by the
way, you are not alone in thatsentiment.
And, it's one of the things,Maury, I said to Debra when we
had a chat before the podcastis, it probably means you're
perfect for the podcast.
What we're starting to realizeis that, Mastery is a very
complicated word and like Craiglooking at Debra and looking at
(05:45):
what you've accomplished thatI'm about to talk about, it
seems obvious from the outside,of course you would be a master.
You've spent decades being aneditor and now a director, but
specifically decades editingsome blockbuster feature films,
right?
Debra (06:00):
Right.
Craig (06:01):
To the outside of that world, to a guy like Craig, of
course it would seem obviousthat this is a person with
mastery, and then what isfascinating is your first
thought is what could I possiblybe a master in?
That is a common experiencethat, we are hearing as we do
these interviews.
Debra (06:19):
I guess maybe what I think is, it's something that
comes natural to you and you,you think less of that, it's not
that big of a deal to you, andthat's probably what I think
mastery is, is something thatcomes natural to you that
you've, practiced and practicedand gotten better at you spent
more, you spent time at doingit.
It seems like that to me wouldbe what Mastery is.
Maury (06:39):
That's an interesting point though that, but that it
started with something that youare good at.
And because of that if somebodysays, Hey, you're good at, you
don't hear the compliment asmuch because it's like, well,
yeah, I just do that thing.
That's easy me.
For me, so I don't hear, extraon it.
Debra (06:53):
You take it for granted that you can do that thing, but
not everyone can.
It's something that noteverybody can do, and you have
different traits than I do, and,and we each have something we
can master.
Craig (07:03):
Okay, but that's all fine and dandy, folks, and our friend
Debra here, you might think thatDebra is an accountant, no knock
on accountants out there, orthat she sells life insurance at
a life insurance seminar, butguess what?
She doesn't.
Debra Neil-Fisher has been aHollywood feature film editor
for decades.
(07:23):
And, Maury's, Craig, don't readall of her credits." but I do
want to say, Debra, how manyfeatures like 35, 40 features?
Debra (07:32):
Yeah, at least.
Those are just the ones thatshow up on IMDB.
I have lists of others that I'veworked on.
Maury (07:37):
Wow.
Craig (07:37):
Right, but I need to say movies like Fried Green
Tomatoes, all the Austin Powersmovies, Saving Silverman,
Without a Paddle, the Hangoverseries, a lot of the comedies,
all the Fifty Shades.
There are women out thereshuddering right now because of
Debra Neil-Fisher.
All the Fifty Shades movies,right?
Debra (07:56):
Yeah.
Craig (07:56):
And a ton, ton more, and then you've become a director.
To us, you.
know, to me, this sounds really,really exciting.
And I also gotta say, I'm happyto introduce you to my friend
Maury.
Who's been an actor for 30years, right?
Who's been in a bunch of movies.
And it's interesting to sit herelike in this like movie
sandwich, having no place, me,like two sides of making a movie
(08:17):
or two sides of this content.
So I just want to say we'rethrilled that you're here,
Debra.
Could you first talk to us abouthow you got started?
How did you get into and createthis incredible career?
Debra (08:29):
Just to begin with, as a kid, I was always a painter and
always working in the art, inarts and visual style more than
verbal.
I'm not a that verbal of aperson, so I'm not a writer
director.
I'm an, editor, director.
Which means I take otherpeople's contents, other
people's words and, and put themeither visually or rearrange
them, whatever.
But I was always visual as akid.
(08:49):
And then I started, I took upphotography in high school and
started shooting photographs andphotojournalism and thought that
I wanted to do that as myprofession.
But then when I um, applied toschools, I got into USC Cinema
School and said, oh if I gotinto that school, I'm gonna go
ahead and try studying cinemaand, and really follow through
with that, so once I wentthrough cinema school at USC, I
(09:11):
got out and I was not surewhether I would be in camera
department because I lovedcamera or whether I would be in
editing or where I would end up,but camera, was a bit hard.
Back then, it was real heavyfilm cameras with film to load
and carry boxes, and I'm notthat big of a person.
So I thought, if you reallywanna be in camera, you're gonna
have to huff it and push hard todo that'cause it's just a
(09:33):
physical job.
And I decided that I might startan editorial, but also editing
is one of the main parts ofstorytelling and filmmaking.
You write the story, you shootthe story, and then you edit the
story.
And those are all three reallyimportant parts of the
storytelling process.
And so once I got intoeditorial, I realized that I was
a crucial part of thefilmmaking.
And it was really a great placefor me specifically to land in.
(09:56):
And then the talents that werenatural to me, which was, I've
always been somebody who's beenable to rearrange and rethink
things.
And that's the natural sort oftalent that sort of lends itself
well to editorial and materialand that exists and sort of
redoing it or figuring anotherway through it or just
reordering it.
And that out to be the key to mysuccess as an editor.
Craig (10:18):
How'd you get your start?
come out of USC.
I mean, and, you're a woman,does that play in?
Was that more difficult?
Debra (10:25):
Yeah.
Back in the day it was a littlebit harder to be a woman in the
industry.
Although, historically there area lot of female editors.
Not a lot, in general there weremore editors than there were in
other departments.
But um, when I first gotstarted, it's hard to get
started in the business, but I'mfrom LA and my father was a
dentist in the Valley and he hada lot of patients that were in
(10:46):
the industry.
I worked for him anyways, duringthe summer, so when I would go
to his office and worked after Igot out of college.
He would say, this is mydaughter.
She, She went to USC, she wantsto be a filmmaker.
And whoever was in and becausehe's dentist and he is, got them
held hostage.
And so it did meet quite a fewpeople that way.
Eventually I didn't get my firstjob that way.
And the first job was through afriend of mine who said uh, I, I
(11:07):
know, a producer coming to town.
He needs somebody on a set tohelp out a PA.
And I said, I'd do it.
So through that, I got my firstjob was an assistant at a
commercial editing company and Ispent a year at that company and
learned a lot there.
But basically when I was meetingpeople through my dad at the
chair, one of his friends andone of his patients was the head
(11:27):
of post-production at FoxStudios.
And so eventually that guy gotme into the union and got me
started in, in, editing.
Rather than non-union, which wasa big deal.
It's, it's really hard to getin, not just this business, but
in to get into the union and allthat.
back then, it was really hard toget into the union.
They had seniority lists androster lists and all that stuff.
(11:48):
So it was very difficult to getin.
So it nepotism.
Basically that's really what itwas.
But that's why when I meet youngfilmmakers and young people
starting out, I'm always likewhoever, you know, even if it's
just an acquaintance, keep atthem and call them you know,
your contact with them is whatthey remember and that's all you
really have.
So keep at it if you'reinterested in trying to get a
job in the business,'cause it'sall about people really.
(12:10):
So, I started at that commercialcompany And I knew that I wanted
to be an editor, but I startedout, you started as an
assistant, you know, so I wascutting sound effects.
And I was cutting, helping cutthe editor's work on things and
cutting commercials and allthat.
Then I started cutting, promoreels and a little bit longer
format stuff.
'cause I knew I really wanted toend up in dramatic format, but I
didn't, couldn't start there.
So I just started workingtowards that and eventually I
(12:33):
got a job cutting a promo fortwo producers and they said to
me um, we're gonna cut our nextmovie on video instead of film.
And we, and we see that you cancut on video.
And I said, yeah, I just learnedthese quarter inch decks.
I can control them.
We figured out how to use'em.
It was very rudimentary.
And they said we want somebodyto edit our film that way cause
we see it's the technology ofthe future.
(12:53):
And so I said, okay, I'd love todo that.
And they go, well you have toget the job first.
And I said, oh, okay.
So they introduced me to thedirector.
'cause the director hires theeditor on the on the pictures,
this person they're gonna workclosest with.
So when I was going to meet thisgentleman, whose name was Gil
Cates, he was head of the DGA atone point.
And so he knew everyone I knew.
(13:14):
So I had all these directors andpeople I knew call him and say
that I was worth meeting andthat I, he should hire me.
So the minute I walked in thedoor, he goes, you got the job.
If you tell people to quitcalling me.
Craig (13:24):
Nice, good.
Debra (13:25):
He said, no, seriously, sit down.
I'm gonna ask you one question.
Just one question.
If you can answer it correctly,you have the job.
And I said, okay.
He said, while we're shooting,when the producers come to you
and say, Hey Deb, can you showus some of the footage that you
know cut together that we'reworking on?
What are you gonna say to them?
I'm not showing'em anythinguntil you say it's okay.
And he goes, okay, you got thejob confidence thing that the
(13:49):
director really should be and isin charge of his film until he's
ready to show the, producers.
But if you don't know thatprotocol, It'd be a problem.
And plus they had introduced meto him, so they were worried
about it.
They were nervous.
He was nervous that I would bein cahoots with the producers.
And it's always about thoseallegiances that happen on the
set for the, for the directorand for the crew.
Who Right?
Maury (14:10):
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Absolutely.
Craig (14:12):
When you look at this, this body of work and, and
you're telling this storylooking back, was there a moment
along the way where, you werepinching yourself, maybe sitting
with a director, maybe it wasbeing a part of your first hit.
Debra (14:27):
I, I, think it's more about like really doing
something well, like I wasworking then.
Then I went on to work with JonAvnet and Jordan Kerner for
quite a few films, and Jon haddirected a film that was about
the Watts Riots before the WattsRiots happened again.
He was doing a historicalpicture about the Watts Riots
and I was cutting this film andJon said to me, Just take the
(14:48):
audio from that and take thepicture from that and, and I'll
come back in an hour and seewhat you can do with that just
to make that work.
And I had put them together andwith some music, and suddenly it
felt like I had elevated thematerial that he shot to another
level.
And the storytelling just becameso much better visually,
audio-wise.
And it was telling the story hehad wanted to tell, but in, in a
(15:09):
way that I had found on my own.
And I thought, that's what thisis about.
This is interesting.
To take something that's justface value and to put putting
them together in a way that madethings elevate to another level
and to tell a story.
That was a beautiful visualstory.
And so at that point I rememberthinking, this is, this is
really cool.
This is what I wanna do.
Craig (15:28):
That's beautiful.
Debra (15:29):
Something about it that was so wonderful.
And then I went on to win anaward, a Cable Ace Award, for
editing that film.
And then at the end of thatceremony, Jon came up to me and
said, I'm gonna do a feature atUniversal, it's called Fried
Green Tomatoes.
And I'd love you to edit that.
So we went on to begin my careeras a feature film editor, which
was great.
Maury (15:47):
How much is your experience or training or
practice as a painter?
Is it a conscious thing sort ofas you're putting the editing
together?
Could you feel like you were,how to ask this, like from
painting, do those two mix inyour mind as you're doing it?
Debra (16:00):
Kind of, it's an impressionistic um, medium.
I feel like film is veryimpressionistic obviously you
have audio to work with too.
You know, not just visuals, butwith the visuals.
You can tell so much of a storyjust by the order those visuals
go in, and so it's very similarand, and composition matters and
what's in the frame and theforeground background.
(16:21):
I think all of that came from mebeing, being very visual and,
and able to speak well visuallyinstead of verbally.
I was never a verbal kid.
It's a very interesting thing.
You meet people who are so goodwith their words and tell
stories well that way, butthat's not me.
I knew always that I could takeimages and the images together
in a certain order would tellthe story better.
(16:41):
Yes, it's related, I think, tothe painting.
'cause I developed that skillearly as a kid.
Craig (16:46):
What about like genre?
I remember like that firstAustin Powers movie.
I mean, that's one of thefunniest movies ever.
Do you think of yourself interms of a genre or do you think
of yourself in terms of, no, myjob is to help a director tell
whatever story it is.
Debra (17:01):
No, I really feel like I can do any genre, but you do get
pigeonholed.
But I don't mind beingpigeonholed as a comedy editor.
I enjoy comedy.
I was raised in a family thattold jokes all the time.
My dad's a dentist and he hadpeople, in the chair, and he was
always just telling them jokesthe whole time.
So I'm used to, in fact, I can'teven go to a doctor now unless
they're a funny doctor.
What's wrong with you?
(17:22):
You don't make jokes aboutwhat's going on here.
And That's just me and what mylife is like.
So I mean, once I got involvedin comedy, I mean, I like drama
too, and, and Fried GreenTomatoes is a dramatic film
also, and I don't mind doingthat.
I just like the everyday livingwith a comedy is so much fun and
to make people laugh, it's greatto make people laugh.
(17:42):
and I found that once we startedthe process of previewing and
seeing people laugh at just theway you've put something
together is so great.
Craig (17:49):
Oh, that must be fantastic.
Debra (17:52):
That's the way I'm pigeonholed as a director also,
but I don't mind it because Ilike, you know, making people
laugh and it's just fun to, towork in comedy.
It's just great.
It's a great way to spend yourday.
Maury (18:01):
As long as I've been in the business and it's been a
while now, I'm embarrassed tosay how long it's taken me to
appreciate the value.
Isn't even a strong enough wordof an editor that that piece of,
and I loved how you put it.
There was the writing, theshooting, and then the editing.
Finally after shadowing somedirectors and watching directors
cut in their heads and seeingthe value of that, but the way
(18:23):
you can change a story, elevatea story, yeah, I'm embarrassed
to admit it took me long toappreciate how amazing it is,
what a good editor can do.
Debra (18:31):
It's sadly such an underappreciated job in the film
industry.
They say, historically that theeditors were supposed to line up
with the directors and be in theDGA, but they decided to go with
IATSE.
Instead and be with theteamsters, which is a big
mistake because editors arestorytellers and they do, they
are the next phase of writers,directors, and editors make the
(18:51):
film.
You're right, it's a veryunderappreciated group of
storytellers.
Really.
Maury (18:56):
You can take bad footage, mediocre to bad footage, and
change it into something that'sa whole new vision.
Craig (19:03):
But what's fascinating, I think from the outside is like
Maury.
You show up to shoot a scene,and Debra might not start
working on that scene for monthsand months and months.
There's a lot of space inbetween when you work, and then
when you work.
Is that true?
Debra (19:19):
Sometimes it's the next day.
They shoot something, the nextday, I see it it's called
dailies.
They come to me and I startlooking at the footage.
you're right, it's not refineduntil months and months down the
road.
It's refined, and refined, andrefined, and refined.
Eventually becomes the scenethat it is or is not in the film
at all sometimes, that takes awhile, that process.
And it should take a while.
We should never, hurry theprocess either.
That's part of the problem, isthat sometimes these schedules
(19:41):
are so tight, you don't reallyhave time to really live with
the material And make it thebest that it can be.
And that's why, we start adding,getting into the point of first
there's the director's cut, andthen there's the producers, then
there's the studio.
You have to go through all thoselevels of people to react to it.
But maybe when it's a tightened,shortened schedule, it gets
hairy and crazy to just finish afilm.
Craig (20:00):
So what about that?
When you're in the midst of it,In a general sense, do you know
when you're working on somethinggood?
Debra (20:07):
Sometimes you have no idea, and sometimes you think
it's amazing.
Like It's, very difficult totell.
It's not some, it's like, it'slike Maury for you on set.
Like sometimes people think thisis the best stuff I've ever read
or I've worked on, and suddenlyit's nothing.
It becomes nothing.
And then other stuff that you,you know, work on and you, and
you didn't, you thought it waskind of good.
It When it becomes a whole andbecomes finished, it becomes
(20:28):
something better than it was onthe page.
And that's really why theindustry is so crazy because no
one can guess.
If we all could, we'd be sowealthy, you know?
Craig (20:36):
Right.
It's hard to make somethinggood.
Debra (20:38):
I mean, I just worked on Barbie and we knew that it was
an IP, but honestly did not knowhow many people would come
because it's really, is it forlittle girls?
No, not really.
Is it for older women?
Yes, probably.
But is it for girl, girls intheir twenties.
turned out there's something foreverybody in the film, which,
which added to,
Craig (20:57):
Wait, Wait, wait, wait, wait, hang on, newsflash.
Did you edit Barbie?
Debra (21:00):
Yeah, I worked in Barbie for nine weeks at the beginning
of this year.
Craig (21:03):
Are you kidding me?
That movie is so fantastic.
It is so great.
Congratulations!
Debra (21:08):
Thanks!
Craig (21:09):
That, is so exciting.
I didn't even know that.
that wasn't even on the page.
Debra (21:12):
No, It's not on the page.
Craig (21:13):
Oh, you're full of surprises.
Maury (21:14):
My wife works at Mattel she's going to be very excited.
That is a film that blows meaway, get a little tongue tied.
You said you were nervous alittle bit at the beginning of
this podcast.
I think it took me a littlewhile to realize, Debra, that
I'm a little nervous too,actually talking to you.
Just so you know, just so youknow.
Which is excitement.
That movie, that movie...
I never want to spoil a moviefor someone, but that was a
(21:34):
movie, which I think is atestament to it of really
wanting to, let everyone havetheir own experience with it.
Debra (21:40):
Yeah, for sure! That's why I say the reason it's so
successful, I believe, is'causethere's something there for
everybody.
There's a little something inthere that everyone can hook
onto.
It grew into its own thing, itjust became what it was.
And there's a, huge audience forit, which is amazing and in many
countries and many languages.
Craig (21:55):
Wait, so I got distracted when you said the Barbie word,
and then I blacked out, and Ididn't hear anything you said?
Because I'm not, I'm
Maury (22:02):
He does, he does this Debra every once in a while,
don't worry about it.
Craig (22:05):
I do blackout.
Hang on! What was your pointafter you said the Barbie word
and I blacked out?
Was it that you were saying youdidn't know how big it would be?
Debra (22:13):
At first surprise.
And then I went, oh, of course,once I, once I thought about it
for a second, I went, yes.
'cause we, even when we werepreviewing the film, people
would line up for hours ahead tosee, cause they wanted to see
it.
So it has a built-in audience,it has a built-in who wanna see,
they have it has the wanna see,but if you don't deliver on
wanna see, then no one's goingto keep coming.
So it actually delivers on thatlevel too.
(22:34):
yeah.
Craig (22:35):
That's exciting.
Maury (22:35):
I'd like to sidetrack a little bit, cause this is
something that I think we'retrying to, I always want to
remember to do.
And we've talked a little bitabout your painting because
we're going to have invite youto be on the podcast because we
know you as this, your resumesand editor is incredible, but
what I'm really interested toabout people are what are the
other things that influencethem, other hobbies, other
things where they've put in timeand effort, passions in their
(22:56):
lives that, maybe affect theirday job.
So I'm wondering if there'sthings like that, whether it's
the photography or the paintingyou keep doing.
Debra (23:04):
I was thinking of that, because I grew as growing up.
I did painting and I played thepiano, did music and all those
are really important to aneditor.
'cause you work in sound, youwork in pictures.
As a little kid, used torearrange the furniture all the
time.
In fact, I wanted to be aninterior designer.
I wanted to be somebody who,redid rooms and, and I love,
it's home, it's a hobby too.
(23:25):
It's, almost a problem.
I'm constantly redoing some partof our house visually because,
and I've known directors andother people in the business who
have that same talent.
It's something about redoingsomething or looking at
something from a differentperspective.
That's really helped my editingcareer a lot.
If, you look at, you can do itwith any, anything.
You can do it with your life.
You can do it with a room offurniture.
You can do it the pictures onthe, the words on the computer,
(23:48):
the pictures that you are inyour photo album.
It's the same thing.
It's looking at something from adifferent perspective you've
been looking at.
You could just take them out,throw'em on the floor in a
different order.
Put'em together and they would,they would be different.
And I think that helps youproceed, go forward and find
other ways through things.
And I think that's one of thethings you're talking about is
what in my life also helped mebecome a master at this?
Craig (24:11):
Hmm.
That's fascinating.
You know, one thing I wanted tosay, Maury, that, and Deb, I'd
love to have you riff on this alittle bit.
We had another guest that wassimilar, Deb, and I mentioned
this to you, that you also havea unique job.
And a unique skill set andunique mastery because it's not
telling your story.
It's like somebody elseupstream, whoever has a story
(24:34):
that has been hatched, and thenthey bring it to you.
And in a way, your job is tohelp them.
Tell their story.
Debra (24:42):
As an editor, I said before you work for the
director.
So in that case, as the, as theeditor of the film, you're
trying to help that directortell the story that they wanna
tell.
There's the writer who wrote thestory, but then the director
realizes it visually and thenyou take it with him and it
becomes another entity.
And so that all the, all thewhile you're working on a film,
you're helping somebody tell thestory they wanna tell.
(25:04):
It's not, it's not the version Iwant, I mean, I have an opinion
about what I think plays, but Ialways frame it within the, in
the idea of this is the storythey wanted to tell.
This is the story they had setout to tell and how to get that
across in a more succinct.
More interesting.
A better way of doing the samething they're trying to do.
Craig (25:22):
And how do you do that in the moment?
You might be master ofrearranging things, but in a
moment, how do I stay focused onhelping them tell their story
and not make this what I thinkthe scene should be, but what I
think they think it should be?
Debra (25:36):
Because what I, what I, often say is, what would we like
this to be like?
Sometimes you have to approachthe material as if you're
looking at it from theirperspective and you say to them,
okay, in a perfect world, whatwere you trying to communicate
here?
Then you go, oh, oh, I seeyou're trying to tell that
story.
Well, You're not exactly tellingthat story.
If we put these in this order,or if I use this voice first,
(25:57):
and then we use these images, orwe say titles here because we
need to know where we are.
Depends on what part of thestory you're telling or where
you're working.
Like for example, when you workon a story, the beginning, the
middle, and end.
Sometimes the setup is not quiteclear enough.
Sometimes it's the middle of themovie that gets a little
muddled, and sometimes it's theend.
You're not sending'em out withthe right message.
(26:18):
So you look at each section ofthe film and say, okay, how are
we gonna be able to tell thestory?
You wanna tell, but in a clear,easier way?
Or is the complication that.
you're trying to come across thepoint of the story?
Like, Is it complicated becauseyou want it to be that way and
that you're trying to get themconfused or send them that
direction?
(26:38):
'cause if I take my perspectiveon it, that's a different
perspective and that's where thedirector role comes in.
So if I'm gonna direct a film,I'm gonna take somebody's words
off a page and decide this isthe perspective I want to tell
the story from.
And then I have an editor helpme do that.
Once they see the footage, I'll,I'll say to them, oh, that's an
interesting way of saying thesame thing that I was gonna say.
(27:00):
And I've had directors say thatto me many times.
Oh, that's an interesting way.
Telling that joke.
I've never thought of tellingthat joke that way or, or
telling that story that way.
Craig (27:10):
You mentioned, one with Seth MacFarlane.
Tell us about the joke thing.
Debra (27:14):
I did, it was just when I first started working for him,
it, it often happens with peoplethat I work with.
They think that I'm coming in asa messenger with the studio
notes, so sometimes they thinkI'm coming in with an agenda.
But what the studio has figuredout, and most of the studio
people I work with have figuredout is that if they let me go in
on my own and just start sayingmy opinion it's worth showing
and the filmmakers areinterested in hearing it.
(27:36):
So when I sat down with SethMcFarlane, he was looking, he
goes, I think I just need tolook at these jokes a couple
times.
'cause I'm not sure how you cameup with these ideas.
Like he and his way had the onlyway to tell the joke was one
way.
And once I showed him anotherway to tell the same joke, he
was like, that's amazing.
I hadn't thought of that.
So it was very interesting tosit with somebody and I also
think it's very interesting tobe with comedians because they
(27:59):
do have a very strongperspective on the world.
But then once you show themanother way to say the joke,
they're like, oh, that's funnytoo.
You know, It's, it's interestingbecause you don't wanna upstage
anybody.
You're not there to upstageanybody either.
You're just there to show'em analternate and another way to, to
do the same joke.
It's very fun.
Maury (28:16):
I, that's sort of, I was thinking about, picking battles,
when do you, have you ever putyour foot down and said, no,
this is really it?
Debra (28:23):
It's not really my job to do that.
I'm there to show alternativesand give, give lots of options.
I call it options and show themoptions and say well, if that
isn't working for you, thenlet's try another version.
And sometimes those jokes don'twork.
You go to a preview and you seeit and it doesn't quite work.
You go, let's go back to thedrawing board and try it another
way.
What's interesting about workingwith Sacha Baron Cohen, who I
(28:43):
collaborate quite a bit with, isthat Sacha loves the comedy, the
science of comedy.
He loves to take all the datathat we find out at each of the
screenings and put the jokes upagainst each other and go the
time we played it with thiscrowd in this version, it got
the best score.
So let's take that joke version,put it with the next joke, which
was from this other screening,and we start piecing things
(29:06):
together from the best versionsthat he's decided because he's
very serious about the comedyand how it played in the room,
and he has somebody who sits inthe audience and judges the
jokes on a scale of one to five.
She writes a number down to asto how that joke played in that
room, then we take the datalater and look at it in the
editing room and put the filmtogether.
It's very interesting.
We call it comedy science.
It's really fun.
Craig (29:25):
And that's also really like a beautiful thing because
that's saying, you all in theediting room may have your fancy
ideas, but it's really how itplays.
It's, it's what makes peoplelaugh that will reign supreme in
your choices.
Let's not think what we think'sfunny.
It's what do they, what willgive them the best experience.
And we're going to put thattogether.
(29:46):
And that's, that's, cool.
I think that's super cool.
Debra (29:48):
It's really important.
So previewing process is veryimportant to comedies.
You can be arrogant about yourcomedy, but in the end, if
nobody's laughing at the joke.
Craig (29:55):
How funny is it?
Debra, when you're working on aproject, it's getting stressful,
the deadline's coming, andyou're blocked how do you find
your skills in unblocking andnavigating a tight situation?
Debra (30:10):
That's interesting because what I usually do, and
it'll come to trust, is to dosome, do a version of something.
Leave it alone.
Go home, go to bed, and wake upin, I usually wake up in the
middle of the night and then Ihave a, a revelation about how
to fix it, write it down, comeback to the office, fix it, and
then it's fixed.
It's something that comes to meand I trust that now first
you're like, oh, I don't know.
(30:30):
It makes you so anxious thatyou're not sure you're gonna be
able to solve a problem.
But honestly, there's always ananswer, and often it comes to me
at the time when your head, mymind is resting or, or not
focused on the problem.
That hard thing where you'rereally focused on something and
sometimes the answer isn'tcoming, mostly because you're so
focused on it.
So sometimes just letting it goor going for a walk or even
(30:51):
going to bed and waking up willhelp me solve a problem,
especially with somethingcreative like that.
Craig (30:55):
I was going to say real quick before we move off of this
incredible resume here, what areyour, what are the top three
things you're most proud of whenyou think that you've worked on?
Debra (31:03):
Let's see, well definitely Fried Green Tomatoes.
Probably Heatwave is up there atthe top too, but also, but I
would say I love the Hangover.
And the Hangover was such agreat film to be part of I mean,
it's, it's a classic forever.
Craig (31:16):
Hey, by the way, Debra, I do have some crossover.
I was at the actual bachelorparty that became the story.
There's our crossover rightthere.
Ture story folks.
I went on that, bachelor partywhere we lost the guy who was a
movie producer and that is theorigin of the movie.
That Debra edited.
So I was there at the beginning.
(31:37):
You were there at the end.
Maury (31:38):
That's a whole other podcast.
Craig (31:40):
Yeah.
Debra, you can interview me forthat podcast.
Maury (31:42):
Yeah, that's going to be, that's next, next week's
episode.
Debra.
I think it's hard.
It's hard for us to say, oh, I'ma master, right?
One, because I think there's anego thing there, but two,
because it also doesn't, maybethere are moments where we feel
mastery and we can see that andthe value, but then it's always
changing and growing and there'smore.
But I, I would think that maybeyou'd work with some people that
you would deem masters.
Debra (32:04):
Yeah, there's directors that I've worked with that I,
that I think are brilliantdirectors.
I've worked with a lot of reallyamazing people.
I worked with Jay Roach and, JonAvnet's amazing.
I worked with Todd Phillips.
He's very, very smart director.
They're just very, veryintelligent, sharp, people who
are constantly focused andworking and you learn so much
from working with the peoplelike that.
Craig (32:24):
What are the characteristics of those people?
Like what do they possess thatmakes that word fit for them?
Debra (32:30):
It's kind of individual, I think.
They are people who are focusedand they're very driven and all
of those characteristics, butthey're also creative,
interesting, people that aresome verbal, some visual, some
each have all their owndifferent traits.
And those sort of come out inthe films that some are
comedians, some aren't, and thatcomes out in their films.
You can see the style that theylean towards.
(32:52):
Jay Roach is funny because he'spolitical and he's a comedian
too.
He is funny and he has, so heis, he's often blending those
two things.
In his films or, or going onedirection or the other.
But you can see each of themhave their own styles and
that's, what makes them unique.
Maury (33:06):
Debra, you're starting to, starting to direct.
Is that new?
And if you always wanted to dothat, and I know sort of in
Hollywood, there's often the, Icame to do this thing, but I
ended up doing this thing and,we follow it as we go.
And that's why the stories hereare amazing.
Have you always wanted todirect?
Debra (33:22):
I have, I've always wanted to direct and I always
thought I've been so good athelping other people tell their
stories.
Is there a version of me doingthat on my own?
I really just wasn't given theopportunities and thought I have
to, now I have to make thatopportunity for myself.
And that is part of whatdirecting is, is making those
opportunities happen.
It's different than editing.
Editing.
You're hired to do something,directors have to go out there
(33:42):
and get the project, find it andmake it happen.
Find a producer to help you makeit happen, to find the money to
get it done.
And so it's a different kind ofskillset that I hadn't really
worked in.
But then in the last 10 years, Ilearned it.
And have done it and thenactually got a chance to direct
a film in 2020 in the middle ofthe pandemic, which is even
crazier.
We went to Oklahoma, which iseven weirder.
(34:03):
It was the election year and wewent to Oklahoma and shot a film
in 20 days with Eva Longoria andMatt Walsh.
It's called Unplugging, if youwanna see it on Hulu.
It's very funny.
a couple that go away for theweekend without their phones and
try to unplug and get back toeach other.
Craig (34:17):
Hahaha, I love it.
Debra (34:19):
And so I got the opportunity to direct that film
and it was so fun and so great,so I really wanna do it again.
But it is like a very specialopportunity to get, to be able
to do that in this townespecially.
It's just, it's a hard thingbecause there's a lot of
directors And there are a lot ofstorytellers out there who wanna
tell stories.
In a different way, it's hard toget those jobs, it's a difficult
thing to do, but I'm trying, I'mworking on it.
(34:41):
And plus for women, they'regiving us opportunities now,
which is great.
I have a lot more opportunitiesto be did before, so that's
helpful.
Craig (34:46):
Alright, so in your opinion, so now if we move away
from, from you as the master,which we think you are, which I
think you are.
We like to ask, do you thinkanybody can achieve mastery?
Is it mastery something thatpeople have in them innately?
Or is mastery something that canbe acquired?
Debra (35:05):
My opinion is that you start with something that you're
talented at, but I think itrequires hard work, which I
always say work begets more workso just keep working, and more
work will come your way.
And the more you work, the morehours you put in, the better
you'll get at whatever it isyou're trying to do.
And then I think it is true thatbased on the talent that you're
(35:26):
born with, but I also think thatyou're constantly learning from
others if you're not willing tolearn and keep learning and
being aware of what's going onaround you and seeing the, the
advances of your job and yourtechnique, your style,
whatever's happening in theworld that you're in, then
you're gonna be stuck and you'renot gonna continue to be a
master at what you I don't, Idon't believe that's possible.
Maury (35:46):
Do you have a film or something that you look towards
to be your muse or yourinspiration or?
Debra (35:52):
It depends on what I'm working on.
Like right now I'm trying todirect five different projects.
I have five different scriptsthat I'm juggling to get actors
on and financing for, and youknow, it's all that tough game
of, you have to be a produceralso.
But I work with producers forsure.
But each film then has its ownstyle and that I think it can
lean towards.
So I, I have specific stuff andeach project is that way too.
(36:14):
If I'm editing, then you areworking towards whatever that
director's thought that film issupposed to be like, or, they're
trying to make it similar to.
just hard to be general.
Maury (36:24):
Yeah.
that makes sense.
What you're doing will be acertain inspiration.
Of course.
Debra (36:27):
Yeah, exactly.
I could say I love the MartinScorsese films and I always
wanna make a film like that, sothat could be something, or, you
know, filmmakers that I like,but it's always, you know, or,
or various filmmakers that Ilike.
But yeah.
Maury (36:40):
Yeah.
Craig (36:41):
What we've learned from people listening to the podcast
is they love something they cantake away from it.
Into their own life.
And you've mentioned a couplethings here, but I'm wondering
do you see an application forall of us?
Debra (36:56):
I absolutely do.
I absolutely think that ifyou're, let's say you're helping
a friend through a problem or asituation, coming at it from a
different perspective becauseyou're not in, it always helps
solve the problem.
and I think that if everyone hasthe ability and it's not easy to
do, to step back and say in aperfect world, what would I want
this to be?
Or what, what I, what would Ireally?
hope this to be like?
(37:17):
Or to say if this was adifferent situation, what could
I, what could it be?
Or if I was to attack it from adifferent angle.
So it's always constantlylooking at things from a
different perspective, and thathelps to reach out to other
people that helps youcommunicate with other people
and say, hey, maybe you'll lookat my thing for me and help me
get through this problem or inlife, in or in work, or whatever
(37:38):
you're jammed up in.
And that is, the way that Ibring something to, each
situation is that not just lookat it from where you are, from
maybe from where you're sittingor from where you're sitting, it
really helps you get throughthings.
Craig (37:51):
And also, I mean, it's interesting.
I've done some editing.
I understand the basics ofediting is, they're different
components.
Like you said, there's differentshots and there's audio one and
two and three, and there's, thisand that and to deconstruct
something into its elements,look at it a different way, and
rebuild it.
Like, you're saying, can producea different result, like when we
(38:12):
all feel stuck in our lives, orstuck in a relationship, or
stuck in a career, if youdistill out the elements, look
at them, and rebuild them adifferent way, you're telling
the joke, in a way that thecomedian never thought of.
Debra (38:24):
Yeah.
I always say things have to earntheir way in.
If you took everything out anddecided only the crucial things
could come in or be part of whatyou're working on, I often start
with the scene that way,especially if something's
already been cut.
I start with this idea idea ideaof like, what could I just keep
the simplest form of it in what,what has to be there?
And then the added stuff, youstart to go maybe I like this.
(38:47):
You start to decipher why stuffis in.
So it really helps to take, tosay to something, just to keep
the, the most important thingin, not the junk, not the extra
stuff, you know?
Maury (38:57):
I love that.
Craig (38:58):
That does feel like a universal life strategy right
there.
What must be in, we cancomplicate everything by putting
too much in, can't we?
Maury (39:06):
You have the instinct sometimes that you need to blow
everything up too.
And there's a shakeup that'svaluable, but no, there's still
going to be some essentialpieces on which you hang.
Debra (39:15):
Go into your closet and just take out all the stuff
doesn't really matter and justpick a few things and start with
those.
You can do it with anything, anyroom, any place,
Craig (39:23):
Right?
Debra (39:23):
your own life.
You can just do it with thatstart over.
Maury (39:26):
That's great.
Craig (39:26):
George Carlin had that bit about stuff.
I always think about your stuff,our stuff, your stuff, my stuff,
all the stuff in the garage.
You can't let go of your stuff.
Debra (39:35):
That's what drives my family crazy.
'cause when I'm not editing, I'mdoing it around the house.
I'm always like editing thisdrawer, that closet, this piece
of this person's room, thatroom.
What can we redo in the house?
My husband drives him crazy.
Craig (39:46):
That's the way your brain works is to see something and
then see it a different way andbreak it down and build it back
up.
Now knowing you, that makessense to me.
Debra (39:55):
It never hurts.
It's the same elements.
They're still there.
That's what's hard to understandsometimes for the directors that
you work with, because when Iwork with the director, they
think once it's out, it's out.
No, that's not true at all.
It can come right back!
Craig (40:06):
Okay.
Last big question.
In your opinion, what are thethree keys to mastery?
Debra (40:12):
Okay, so the three keys to mastery are
what you know and love, and keeplearning others.
Craig (40:20):
Debra.
I think you're a master.
I think you didn't know it, butI think you are.
I applaud you for coming on.
I know you were somebody who'slike your work is about helping
somebody else, but you have sucha great smile and you, you
clearly have a great joy andhappiness about who you are, the
work you do, how you get tospend your time.
(40:40):
And It's.
just awesome to be a part of,you know, it's, you've made me
laugh.
I've laughed my ass off some ofthese movies.
Thank you the jokes.
On behalf of millions of peoplelaughing their ass off because
of you, we appreciate it becauseI love a good comedy and you are
great at this.
And I'm so happy to see yousmile when you talk about it
(41:03):
because you should.
I don't work in Hollywoodanymore.
I left a long time ago, but, I'mputting all of my positive mojo
right now that Maury Sterlingand Debra Neil-Fisher work
together.
I'm putting this together in myhead right now.
I'm making a project.
My powers of magic are fairlylow, but I do want you to know
if you feel something, that'swhat I'm doing right now.
(41:24):
I'm, putting it
Maury (41:25):
I don't know.
I, Debra, I don't
Craig (41:26):
Look, at these fingers.
Maury (41:27):
strange.
I don't know if I actually
Debra (41:28):
I'm buying.
It.
I'm buying.
It.
Feels good.
Maury (41:30):
I'll buy in too.
Debra (41:31):
Sounds great.
Maury (41:32):
Good.
Craig (41:32):
Debra, thank you so much for taking the time to be on
Everyday Masters.
We adore you.
Thank you for all the laughs,all the wonderful work.
How was it?
Was it like being in your dad'sdentist chair?
Debra (41:43):
No, not at all.
No, not at all.
It's great.
It's very enjoyable.
You got me relaxed really fast.
Thank you.
Craig (41:48):
And I hope to see you again, in person sometime soon.
Maury (41:51):
Thanks for making the time.
it was fantastic!
Debra (41:53):
Thank you so much.
Yeah, it's really fun.
I enjoy it a lot.
for having me on you guys!
Craig (42:02):
Okay.
Maury.
Debra Neil-Fisher my mind, clearmaster of editing feature films.
When I think about those films,I think about like the hangover
films and the Austin Powerfilms, I think about all the
laughs that she has deliveredand now really understanding how
she contributes and participatesall that kind of stuff, What a
(42:23):
cool thing.
And then, oh, by the way, shedrops.
Oh yeah.
And I, And I worked on Barbie,like wasn't even in the list of
things I was looking at.
Maury (42:32):
Yeah, no, I know and not to be argumentative, but to
argue with you uh, not evenreally argue with you.
Craig (42:38):
How not be me and against me?
Are you arguing against me orwith me?
If you're arguing with me,doesn't that mean you're not
arguing?
Maury (42:45):
I'm arguing against you.
Well, No, this thing of like,'cause'cause I think you have a
tendency to, to want to say yesmaster and I'm finding I have a
tendency to go well, but if theydon't say it, then, this concept
of what is, how can she not be?
But she also doesn't feel likeshe's there yet?
know, One of the last componentsof her three things about
mastery is it's that piece ofyou still stay curious and open
(43:09):
to learning.
Like you, you never arrive.
And I think we've talked aboutthat many, many times now of, so
from the outside we can go,yeah, come on.
Are you kidding me?
You're, this is, incredible.
But that internal thing of hereven being a little, like why,
why am I gonna do this podcastwith these two weird people?
I don't know.
Craig (43:26):
Speak for yourself.
Maury (43:26):
No, I, I was speaking for both of us.
Craig (43:28):
Okay.
My Wrapper-Upper, kind of likethe Eric Bailey interview.
I am realizing there are peoplethat have mastery.
In helping other people expressthemselves, like we met Eric
Bailey and he really sees hisrole as being somebody to remove
obstacles and free up an artist,a musician in that case to be as
creative as possible.
(43:49):
And then we meet Debra.
She is very much the same thing.
She is very much in service to,for the most part, she now has
been a director, but a lot ofher career has been helping
somebody else tell their story,that's a really neat thing to
think about.
She doesn't sit there saying,Hey, what do I think I want to
(44:10):
do in this moment?
She sits with the director andthese other folks and says, what
is your vision?
Tell me what you are trying tocommunicate.
She could sometimes say, Hey, Itried this a few different ways.
Which one helps you tell whatyou're trying to say?
But it's really in service tosomebody else.
And, I am struck by that there'sa huge humility and there's a
(44:32):
huge sense in knowing your spotin the bigger machine, if you
will, or the bigger production,which is like, my role here is
to help you do that.
So that, that's really mytakeaway and I'm, I find it
exciting that we've, it's comeup more than once in these
interviews.
What about you?
Maury (44:47):
I'm gonna go spiritual on it in the sense of, she talked
about editing her own, likerecreating and, redoing her
closets, her home.
She's in a kind of, in aconstant state of rearrangement.
And how that creates a lifecreates a different story and
how you can be, it was, therewas something to that, that
that's not what I do.
I sort of like to get everythingset and then leave it there.
(45:08):
I guess that really makes methink I'm, I'm thinking about in
sort of spiritual terms andmeaning like Who's my inner
editor, you know, that peopletalk about and who's editing my
life?
Do I have an editor who's tryingto really tell a great story?
Or do I have an editor who'strying to tell sort of an awful
story?
Taking that, viewpoint on and italso just from, I felt naive in
a way of re-app appreciating thenature of filmmaking and just
(45:31):
how important the editor is.
Assembling this massive amountof information into the story
that really works and, and sortof the science of filmmaking.
She was wonderful.
And just to come back to her,three components of mastery:
work hard, use what you know andlove and, keep learning from
others.
Just really simple and reallyclear, especially use what you
(45:52):
know and love, like start thereand then grow from that.
Craig (45:57):
I need to circle back and amplify that one idea.
'cause I think we did ask aboutsomething people could into
their own lives.
And I have thought about itsince meeting Debra and talking
to her is, when one is stuck,break the situation down to its
essential components.
Then add the things back in.
Add back in what must be backin.
(46:19):
And so, you know, you and I liketo talk spiritual life,
parenting career, whatever thatapproach when one is stuck does
feel like a high level way tohave a different perspective,
look it a different way, butjust add back the essential
elements first.
That is a, pretty cool life hackin a way from a, from a
(46:40):
Hollywood movie editor.
Maury (46:41):
Yup.
Craig (46:41):
All right, my brother.
Wonderful episode.
You're a wonderful human andyour hair is just, a phenomenon
of follicle ness.
I like that.
That's like your album coverright there.
Listeners, you can't see it, butit's just Maury's spiky hair
with a light that looks like asun, and I call it Hair Sun".
(47:02):
.All right, everybody, we willsee you next time on Everyday...
Maury (47:06):
Masters.
Craig (47:10):
Okay.
Uh, My stop.
Please stop coughing when No,you catching, you're ruining my
take.
Maury (47:16):
But are you catching that on the, are you catching that,
is that, I mean, is that, areyou catching that on the mic
when I cough?
Craig (47:21):
Yeah.
When you make noise outta yourbody and there's a microphone,
it catches it.
Yeah.
Maury (47:26):
Okay.
You go.
Craig (47:26):
Any, any noises coming outta your face hole?
Are you gonna get caught?
Maury (47:30):
Oh
Craig (47:31):
Yeah.
So if you think thoughts, theywon't get caught unless you.
Unless you put wind behind yourvocal cords.
Maury (47:37):
Okay.
Craig (47:38):
Cool?
We clear on that?
Copy.
(48:08):
Wait, I wanna show you somethingreal quick.
You're gonna find this fun.
What happens if I just take thisoff?
What Fan, fan, Fan, fan, fan,fan.
Feeling the doo, doo, doo, doo,doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo.
Okay, check it out.
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