From Maxim Magazine to Teaching Children with Learning Difficulties: Jamie Hooper

In this episode, Jamie Hooper shares his remarkable journey from the magazine industry to teaching math to students with learning differences. He emphasizes the undervalued role of classroom teachers, underlining the importance of mentorship and deep connections with students. Jamie's transition from the high-energy world of advertising and magazines, including his time at Maxim, takes a poignant turn as he describes a personal crisis in his 40s, leading him to prioritize family and venture into education.

Over the past 15 years, Jamie has dedicated himself to teaching math to students with dyslexia and language-based learning issues, incorporating strategies to build self-esteem and create an engaging learning environment. He also offers valuable advice for parents and emphasizes the impact of early intervention. This episode unveils the adaptability of skills across different fields, demonstrating how mastery can profoundly benefit students with learning differences.

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Episode Transcript

Jamie (00:00):
I would say the thing that has helped me, the thing
that I've always been good atthrough tons of failure, tons,
right.
But one thing I have neverfailed at is collecting mentors.
I mean, I just saw wherever Iwas at, somebody older than me,
more experienced than me.
Doing something that I wanted todo, I was never shy about

(00:22):
grabbing them and saying, canyou teach me please?

Intro (00:26):
Welcome to Everyday Masters, the show where we seek
to understand mastery.
People who have it, people whotry for it, people who struggle
with it, and how we all manifestit in our own lives.
Welcome to Everyday Masters.
Everyday Masters.
Everyday Masters.
Everyday Masters.
Everyday masters, everydaymasters.

Diamond (00:51):
Hello Maury.
How you doing, my friend?

Sterling (00:54):
Hi Craig.
I am, how am I doing?
Well it's funny because you andI just had a conversation a
little bit before recordingtoday where you really asked me
that.
You're like, how are you doing?
And what was strange for me is Iactually came up with the answer
of I'm too busy to answer thatquestion.

Diamond (01:10):
Well, it's better than having idle time.

Sterling (01:13):
I think for me in a, a way that's good because I've
spent a lot of time in my lifereally, self-involved on that.
Like, how am I, and spending alot of time like picking it
apart and dwelling on it.
So in some ways, I actuallythink it is progress, but then
there's the flip side of it oflike, no, you need to check in
and when a good friend is likechecking in on you.

(01:33):
So I think I'm, I'm, justcontinue to be in this new
chapter of life, which is a lotabout literal sort of production
and how to do that.
And it's, very stressful attimes.
It's also really cool'cause I'm,I'm having to face a lot of
stuff and learn new techniquesand.
All kinds of stuff.
So it's a mixed bag.
I think overall the shorteranswer is am well.

(01:54):
How are you?

Diamond (01:55):
Good.
I'm doing good.
the one thing I would say, Idon't know when people will
listen to this we hit amilestone with Everyday Masters
and we publish our 10th episode.
So we started in January 2023.
Yeah.

Sterling (02:09):
Fanfare?
Sound effects.

Diamond (02:12):
Fireworks, digital fireworks right now are
exploding.
and then I've, I've learnedrecently that most podcasts
people will burn out and washout around seven episodes.
So It's

Sterling (02:22):
Our audience burned out at seven.
I don't know, but

Diamond (02:24):
Yeah.
No, there's nobody here.
There's nobody here.
They, it still is just you andI.
Yeah.
No it's us, but by the way, ourguest is laughing behind the
screen there.
we have one listener today whohas to be here, that's for sure.
But, I'm feeling really proud ofthat.
it's, a fun endeavor.
I, realize that in making thepodcast and talking to Masters,
the idea of persevering, theidea of putting in your hours,

(02:47):
the idea of making mistakes toget better.
It's interesting that in doingthe podcast, I get to practice a
lot of the things that we learn,you know, week after we can talk
to these people.
That said, I'm super fired up tointroduce this episode's guest.
Jamie Hooper.
Jamie was a founding member ofthe Maxim magazine team.

(03:08):
And now is a master at teachingchildren with dyslexia and
language-based learningproblems.
Jamie and I worked together, Ican't even believe it.
It's like 20 years ago.
We worked together and then theguy went through this kind of
incredible pivot and he uses theword pivot and it'll be
interesting to hear him talkabout pivot then where he landed
and where his mastery.

(03:29):
Really settled on is somethingso fascinating'cause it's quite
far from where he started inmany respects and something I
know that we can all attach to.
And the guy is absolutely a,fantastic human being.
And without further ado, I amvery excited to introduce Jamie

(03:50):
Hooper.

Jamie (03:54):
Hello,

Sterling (03:55):
There he is.

Diamond (03:56):
Yay.

Jamie (03:58):
Contact.
I'm almost speechless.
Not quite.
Thank you.
Thank you for that intro, man.
Really I, so appreciate it.
And you know, it was 24 yearsago that we worked together in
the digital Hollywood space inthe early days.
You were absolutely the best andonly good thing that came out of
it, but I'll take it.
It was great

Diamond (04:18):
Jamie's one of these guys where every time I see him
that's like I can't believe Idon't see more of you always
feel like you're, you know, soclose.
But yet we don't talk that muchand but we can maintain the
closeness.
And so we put the podcast outand Jamie was one that responded
like a great friend that kind ofcame out of the woodwork and was
like, Hey man, this thing'ssuper cool.

(04:39):
And we started talking and thenthe conversation we realized,
wow, I cannot believe whereJamie's life and career and
passions have taken him.
And so the first thing, Jamie,is when you thought about being
on a podcast called Masters, didyou think?

Jamie (04:54):
Well, I listened.
First of all, I was, I think Iwas one of your very first
listeners in your, when it wasjust the two of you, episode
one.
It was me and Doritt who werelistening.

Diamond (05:05):
Right.
Okay.
It.

Jamie (05:06):
We called each other after.
We, were kvelling.
But so when I first heard it,first of all, I thought your
idea was wonderful because Ithink I just, I believe, and I
know it's at your core too, thatour society sort of overrates
mastery in too few things.
So we absolutely adore andMaury, no offense, but we adore
actors.

(05:27):
We, give them god-like status,you know, film directors,
musicians, you know, whatever.
And you guys are interested insomething very different.
And I, it just, it struck achord with me and it made me
actually really think aboutmyself.
What I do with my kids as aclassroom teacher is not seen by
people.
It's not something that'spresented to the public.

(05:48):
It's something that I do andfail a lot at.
And, you know, it's about theconnection with me and the kids,
and the kids with each other andabout their learning and
development and, I said, wow, Ilove talking about what I do,
and you and I'm every day, verymuch every day and over 15 years
I think have developed somemastery.

Sterling (06:07):
Jamie, I love how you said that, that there's sort of,
there's a privacy to what we'regetting out of.
It's what we don't see.
And there's all these thingsaround us that we're not seeing.
So we'll get to where you arenow, but let's rewind a little
bit.
You guys talked a little bitabout your past 24 years ago.
You and Craig were in thedigital space.
But tell us a little bit about,'cause I don't know you, I'm
Craig's raves about you, but Idon't really know.

(06:29):
He's told me a little bit aboutyour story, but maybe we can
kind of start connecting thedots of, a little bit of the
past that got you to where youare now.

Jamie (06:37):
Sure, what I was for the first 18 years of my, working
life from 1990 to 2008 wasreally like an old media
warrior.
I was in the magazine business,right?
So I moved to New York in 1990.
and I through, through two yearsof work in an ad agency.
It was a little bit, it was likeone of the old Mad Men aid ad

(06:58):
agencies, but way, you know,sort of passed into the
nineties.
There were a few of those guysstill limping around the office.
But it was kind of a new day.
my job was to place our clientsadvertising into the magazines.
We got to select the magazines,we heard the sales pitches, and
our team sort of decided whereto put the money.
And it was a cool job.
But over time I, I saw a lot ofpitches, two or three a day from

(07:20):
different magazine people, andsome of them were really good.
And it opened my eyes to a worldat magazine.
See, I like everybody else,thought to work at a magazine,
you had to be a writer andeditor.
Or someone who chose thegraphics and does, or the photos
and there's actually a wholeteam that goes out and sells the
advertising.
And so I was that guy.

Sterling (07:40):
What, was it that turned you on about that?
What was it that, that you sawthose sales guys doing that made
you feel like, I want to dothat?

Jamie (07:48):
It's like, anything else.
I'm sure you went through thisand Craig went through this.
You know, when you're, you're atthe early stages of building
your career.
You're watching really closelyat other people, you know,

Sterling (07:58):
Yep.

Jamie (07:58):
And there's some good and a lot of bad, So, be honest, you
know I saw a lot of bad pitches.
Then there was something insideme that said, oh my God, I could
do better than that.
Meanwhile, the size of theDiamond on that person's finger
fur coat and the bespoke suitand the tie and everything else,
I was making$16,000 a year.
Okay.

(08:19):
So we had a lot of power.
I had no money.
Okay.
So there was a motivator there abig And and then I think more
importantly were the handful of,sales reps, that's what they
call'em, reptiles, sales reps,whatever.
There's a whole lingo in thebusiness, like every other
business.
So there were four or five thatI became actually very close

(08:39):
with and they took me undertheir wing and they were at
Entertainment Weekly.
One was at Food and Wine andthere was one at the New Yorker
who really liked me She told me,you know, if you want to get
into sales, you know, they'relooking to kind of get younger.
I mean, the average age of asalesperson at that time at the
New Yorker was probably 45.
At 23 I was a very young theyoungest, they had ever hired ad

(09:00):
salesperson at the New Yorkermagazine in New York.
And that was a great run.
I did that for five years.
My time there coincided with thetenure of Tina Brown, who was a
very famous editor of magazinesin New York.
She had turned around VanityFair.
She came in and completelyremade the New Yorker.
She was an absolute genius, itwas just phenomenal to work with
her and watch her do her thingand go out into the market and

(09:22):
get all kinds of new advertisersto support the magazine.
I did that for five years, andthen in 96, a guy I worked with
who was older than me, who waslike a mentor to me, had just
taken a new job at this newBritish magazine that was
launching in the United States,and it was called Maxim, and I
had no idea what that was.
I knew about Playboy, I knewabout GQ.

(09:44):
I knew that I didn't actuallyreally like any of those kind of
men's magazines.
And he said no, no, no, no.
no.
This is like completelydifferent.
This is like English and it'sfunny and it's like got pictures
of women in their underwear, butnobody's naked.
And you know, we need an addirector, you gotta come over.
And so I took so I said, sure.
That's great.
I really wanted somethingentrepreneurial.
I wanted to help start somethingand so I I was one of the very

(10:06):
few first employees of whatturned out to be a really
successful magazine.
I mean, right from the get-goMaxim just exploded into the
market and really kind of sawsomething that no one else did
at that time.
The idea of a men's magazine inthe publishing business had kind
of been written off.
It was kind of all dated.
It was all a little cheesy.
And it was, you know, I mean,heh, Hugh Hefner was cool in the

(10:27):
sixties, but not in 96.
So like, so there was a momentfor this sort of really body,
funny, crazy real life magazineto connect with men in their
twenties and thirties andyounger and a little older.
And the circulation just zoomedand it became a very big
business.
So I was there As the addirector for three years, and

(10:49):
then I got itchy.
I tend to get itchy after threeyear blocks, so I like, I wanna
try new things.
And I knew an investor in thiscompany called Wire Break, which
was based in Venice Beach andthey had this creative guy named
Craig Diamond, who I met.
And he, they made shows, it wasbasically a television network
for the internet and it wascalled Wire Break.

(11:09):
And it was way, way ahead of itstime.
There was a lot of funny stuffbeing made,

Diamond (11:13):
I gotta jump in real quick.
Hoop, which is.

Jamie (11:15):
Oh, to defend yourself.

Diamond (11:17):
Well, definitely to defend myself.
No, no Maury.
I was gonna tell you, I, Iremember it vividly because, you
know, the world was crackling atthat time.
It was kind of like the internetboom was in full effect.
I mean, this is like everybody'sgetting wealthy overnight kind
of thing.
Big dollars going into it.
And I had worked at Paramountand then the president of

(11:39):
Paramount was forming thiscompany and then, like, we got
our, MVP, right?
And there was this guy thatJamie Hooper, the guy from Maxim
Magazine, gonna come out NewYork and work with us.
And I remember like, oh shit.
Like we got, we j we have doneit.
You know, we got Jamie Hooperfrom Maxim, right?

Jamie (12:01):
Craig, you're making me sound like Alec Baldwin in, uh,
Glen Gary, Glen ross.

Sterling (12:06):
He started when he was 22.

Jamie (12:08):
Coffee for closers only.

Diamond (12:10):
he was Alex.
He walked in.
He is like, you see this watch?
I'm like, I don't have a watch.
And he's like, get a fuckingwatch Diamond.
No, but I was like, it was justsuch a, it was such a fun time.
'cause the dreams were sofricking big.
Like every day we were, Jamieand I laugh about it now in
hindsight, no dream was too big.
when we would go, to SanFrancisco and sit with Levi's

(12:32):
and try to explain what the hellwe were doing.
I mean, Just hilarious.

Jamie (12:38):
Yeah, and they wanted it.
The thing is they wanted it, butthen they had to ask the
question at the end of everymeeting.

Diamond (12:44):
Yeah.

Jamie (12:45):
Who's watching?
And we're like, it's a big idea.
It's a big idea.
You know, it's like, you know,it's a new thing we need, you
know, You know, It was just aninteresting moment where there
was so much crazy hype.
99, 2000, some of thesecompanies, not ours, but some of
our competitors were goingpublic and now we're suddenly
worth a hundred million dollarsworth$500 million.

(13:07):
They had no audience, they hadnothing.
And those stocks, of course,within a year and a half,
crashed and.
Wire Break crashed as well.
So then I went back to thecompany that published Maxim in
New York and they had launchedand I had helped a second
magazine that was a lot likeMaxim, it was called Stuff
Magazine.
And became the publisher of thatmagazine.
I was a pretty young publisher.

(13:28):
Maxim was a big magazine, andthere weren't many guys at that
time who were 30 years old and,being, the head publisher of the
magazine.
So that was a great experiencefor me.
And then within two years, theymoved me back to Maxim as the
group publisher of like thewhole brand.
Now, by this time in 2002, Maximwas a global brand.
And We were doing big super,Bowl parties, which I was

(13:49):
involved in.
There was a whole celebritycomponent.
did a TV show and NBC, it wasthe multimedia big, thing.
it was great.
And it was a wonderfulexperience for me and I loved
it.
So at this moment'07, this iswhere the pivot starts to,
starts to, happen and be, and bethought about, which is, I had
gotten married almost 10 yearsbefore I had two young children.

(14:11):
And because of the work I wasdoing, I was not seeing them.
Very much at all.
I was on the road, I had acircuit, I was like a road
warrior, and I had basically twoweeks out of every month, I was
in LA for at least four or fivedays.
Then I go up to San Francisco, Igo to Milwaukee for the beer,
Detroit for the cars, down toMiami for a party.
This was my circuit, you know, Iwas doing all the time.

(14:33):
so all day doing meetings allnight deep into the night,
partying with clients.
I justified all of this as workas what I need to do.
I think like a lot of people whoget very, deep in their careers,
a lot of things get reallyjustified as, oh, this is what I
have to do.
It's part of the job, And forme, part of that job was, doing

(14:54):
some things that were reallyunhealthy for my, body and my
spirit and my soul andultimately my marriage.
In'07 I really pulled back.
At I had to pull back and I tooka year off.
And I wanted to completelyreassess what it meant to do
meaningful work.
I thought there was a lot ofmeaning in the work I was doing
because I had teams, you know, Ihad a team of 45 people on each

(15:15):
of the businesses I was the bossof a subgroup and, the CEO of
the company.
And I absolutely loved, youknow, the teams that we had.
And there was a lot of verypositive vibes and a lot of
learning on all sides.
But ultimately I just, Icouldn't find enough meaning in
it to justify being away from myfamily that much and, doing what

(15:36):
I was doing to my body bypartying so much.
I was really starting to getpretty unhealthy, and so I had
to stop and then sort ofreassess.
I decided for myself, and Ichanged a lot of habits, and I
did some things, you know, forexample, I stopped eating meat
for two years.
I wanted to try that.
And I wanted to taketranscendental meditation
because I'd read a book byDavid.

Sterling (15:55):
Lynch.

Jamie (15:55):
thank you.
David Lynch wrote thisincredible book you know, about
the power and the driver ofcreativity that you get through
transcendental meditation.
And I said, man, I wanna trythat.
So I took the course.
So I spent months sort ofreassessing healing myself,
reconnecting with my wife andkids and getting much more
involved, you know, in theirlives and taking that time to do

(16:18):
that.

Diamond (16:19):
Yeah.
Sounds like one of theseincredible moments in one's
journey.
The dark night of the soul.
Soul the hitting bottom themidlife Life crisis All of these
moments That's where we Wherethe pivot It starts and um, We
start looking for more and We'vegot the courage to change right?

Jamie (16:38):
Now, meanwhile, just kind of stepping back, I was not
raised by parents who were thebusiness people.
They weren't, they wereeducators.
They were, my father was acollege professor at Temple
University, and my mother wasthe director of the nursery
school in our town and was kindof a celebrity in the town.
For good reason because everyonehad their kids with her and her
staff, and they, were reallyamazing people.

(17:00):
mean they, could have done a lotof things and they dedicated
their lives, lives to teachingand molding minds.
I mean were great and theyplayed obviously a teacher role,
you know, with me.
So I, it's not like I was notraised looking at people in
business and what they have todo.
I, was the first in my familyever to do something like that.
So I kind of went back to basicsin terms of like assessing who I

(17:21):
am as a person.
what are my values and what do Iwant to maybe contribute to the
world with my work?
I don't want that to sound like,you know, I don't know, too
highfalutin or whatever.
But that's like, it was reallyimportant to me at that moment
as I was about to turn 40, I washaving a little bit of a crisis
like we all do at that age.
so with a lot of support, youknow with from my, wife both

(17:46):
emotional and financial becauseI had done well for a magazine
publisher, but I hadn't donewell enough to just go out and
make no money.
So, you know, my wife and thisis something I had to reconcile
as well and just be very, youknow, candid about it was not,
easy initially to live with theidea that my wife was gonna

(18:06):
financially support me if I wasgoing to do a new career that
didn't make money.
And the career I had in mind wasto become a teacher.
That's really what I, that'sreally what I wanted to wanted
to explore.

Sterling (18:19):
the, desire to become a teacher come from your parents
how did that seed kind ofblossomed in you?

Jamie (18:24):
Well, there were, you know, there were a few sort of
inputs, right?
My background, which I've talkedabout as a child and, the
example that I observed growingup with my parents, right.
But my daughter, who's now 23was, now in school, in grade
school.
And I, there was some now that Iwas going to parent-teacher
conferences, and I was seeing,you know, homework and I was

(18:45):
seeing how school was going.
She went all the way through,you know, and graduated, and now
has graduated from college andis working and is doing great.
But in third and fourth gradeshe was experiencing some
learning issues and she and theteachers weren't really
understanding it, and I didn'tunderstand it either really,
because I had no background init.
Knew something was off.
so like many, parents who watchthe children experience some

(19:09):
struggle, you know, in school wegot outside help.
She got a tutor who was way morethan a tutor.
It was somebody who really whatit means to have a
language-based learningdisability.
So she didn't have dyslexia, mydaughter, but she had a sort of
an issue that is fairly commonwhere she can say the words that
she's reading, but because shehad some working memory issues
and reading is really conjuringimage of what you're reading.

(19:33):
So playing a movie in your ownmind from the words, that's what
reading really is, and that'swhat comprehension is, right?
So she was having somedifficulties with comprehension
and she started meeting twice aweek with this woman.
And I was allowed to observe oneor two of those sessions,
particularly at the beginning.
And I was absolutely blown awayat how this woman this amazing

(19:54):
professional understood mydaughter as a whole person.
That means from her emotional,even physically, and then how it
worked in the learning andability to read, I just found
really compelling.
I thought, wow, that is reallysome incredible work.
That's being done and some verydifficult work.
And she was so good at it.
So that was a factor that reallyhit me.

(20:17):
I said, this is a person who'sincredibly smart, professional,
but she's dedicated her life tohelping kids learn.
And so that had an effect on me.
And then I met another guy, adad from the school who was 10
years older than me he was whatI became a career changer.
My friend who I met was namedLance.
his job for 20 years was in thegarment center in New York.

(20:38):
He was in the fashion business.
He was the brand manager ofGlory of Vanderbilt plus size
jeans.
And this guy was good at hisjob, but totally miserable.
Like he just couldn't evenbelieve that this was his
contribution to the world.
Right?
So not that this bad job, a lotof people got it.
It's all worth it, you know, yougotta make a living, but not for
him.
So I met him at a party randomlyof parents from the school, and

(21:02):
I had heard, overheard him say,yeah, when I changed careers and
now I work at a middle school indowntown Manhattan and I teach
humanities.
I overheard him say that, andthen I kind of cornered him at
the party and I said, tell mehow you did what you did.
It was almost like a sales call,right?
I went into like mode of like,I'm gonna do some deep listening
here.
I wanna learn from this guy.

(21:22):
I want to, you know, I want toknow everything that he did and
how he did it, because I've beenthinking about this, but I have
no idea how to do it.
You know, he's such a menschbecause he took me through his
story and that he went to BankStreet College and graduated
there with a master's ineducation.
And this is how you getcertified.
And, you know, you can go andvisit schools.
He just opened up this whole newworld to me.

(21:43):
so then almost the next day,next few days, I went to Bank
Street, met with the admissionsdirector that he was friendly
with, met with her, and thenthat's when it all came together
because the, director ofadmissions at Bank Street
College, which is a really youknow, really fantastic graduate
School of Education in New YorkCity.
She said, what do you want todo?
And, you know, kind of like anidiot.

(22:03):
I said, well, I'm thinking likeyou know, I'd like to teach like
Salinger, you know, to like 11thgraders, you know, at a public
school, I want to like teachnovels.
And she goes, Jimmy, those jobsare all taken.
Nobody ever leaves those jobs.
Those are, that's easy.
She said, I said, oh okay.
Like, well, what?
I don't know.
What do you suggest?

(22:23):
And she goes, would you considerspecial education?
There are kids all over the citywho've been diagnosed with
different learning issues wedon't have enough teachers to
teach them.
Would you consider doing this?
And Bank Street is up on hundred16th Street.
At the time I was living down on84th Street.
I walked all the way home andthat was the moment where it

(22:44):
just clicked.
I was like, she's just giventhis to me.
Like that's what I'm gonna do.

Diamond (22:49):
Oh, I.
I love this.
So cool.
And I love the idea that we allhave these master designs and
what we’re gonna do and and thenthe world just shows up and
hands you actually the thing youshould be doing, so cool!

Jamie (23:03):
So I, enrolled and did the application, blah, blah,
blah.
Did two years there.
And it was a phenomenaleducation, not just to train to
be a teacher, but to understandmyself as a learner.
That's kind of the magic of whatthey do there.
They're, they are also studentcentric and they you, almost go
through this journey ofunderstanding yourself as a
learner so that you can be agreat teacher, right?

(23:25):
So you can understand what kidsare really going through as
their big thing is the wholechild, and which I totally
bought into and I, do to thisday as a teacher, that we're not
just looking to see if a kid canmultiply fractions.
we're looking at what are sortof all the factors that go into
their ability and if it's realand often it, you know, we have

(23:48):
real disability andunderstanding the emotional
components that go into that.
Some of the environmentalfactors in the classroom.
Are there things that I could bedoing differently?
To foster a more comfortable or,more conducive learning
environment.
You know, all these things I'velearned over the years.
So that launched me in the, newcareer.

Diamond (24:06):
After the pivot, what have you really leaned into?
What have you been doing for thepast?
What, it's 10 ish years now,right?

Jamie (24:12):
It's been actually 15,

Diamond (24:13):
15, years.
Okay.
so for 15 years, what have youbeen doing?

Jamie (24:17):
I started in the'08,'09 school year.
I had been for seven years inthe classroom.
For the bulk of that five years.
I was the fourth grade teacherat a school in Manhattan that
worked with kids with a widerange of disabilities.
I always think about a studentand a kid really as strength
first.
Right?
Even if they have documentationthat's, say, they say they have

(24:38):
a disability, or even if thechild, let's say, is in a
wheelchair or has down syndromeor whatever it is, right?
We always think about thestrength first, right?
In this case, in this schoolwith these classes, as my, as a
fourth grade teacher, we had awide range of, ability and
disability within the classroom,and I absolutely love that
experience.
So I worked at that school forfive years, the last eight years

(24:58):
to go more specific, I was,basically help start, it's kinda
like the magazine business, youknow, it's sort of like the
kinds of things that I am drawnto are new propositions, right?
Blank pieces of paper that says,what if this school looked like
this?
And there was an extraordinarywoman in New York, her name is
Alana Ruske Kidd, and she thehead of the JCC Nursery school,

(25:20):
Jewish Community Center Nurseryschool, the Upper West side,
where my kids went.
And I knew her because I was aparent and she had a really high
pressure job.
Because when kids leave nurseryschool, I think Maury you're
experiencing this now.
You know, where are they gonnago to school?
Right?
And it's like, whoa.
And you sleepless nights forparents, et cetera.
She managed hundreds of parentsand a group of teachers to make

(25:43):
all of that happen, right?
She's really an amazing person.
In 2013, 14, she got an idea tosay if, we started a school that
is a Jewish day school, butspecifically for kids with
dyslexia and language-basedlearning problems, it doesn't
exist because the you, itdoesn't exist in the world.
Because in any classroom, youwill, across the country, you

(26:06):
will see maybe eight to 10% ofany classroom have kids with
specified learning problems.
It's not the majority, it's afairly small group.
So if you're talking about aJewish day school for that, it's
even smaller.
It really could only happen inNew York.
In New York, we have a vastocean, right, of very

(26:26):
academically rigorous of modernorthodox Jewish day schools.
and it's a dual languagecurriculum and it's very
challenging for the children.
If you have a dyslexic child inthat setting there, it's not
gonna be good.
And so our school started in'14-'15 24 kids and has gone
every year grown, grown.
grown.
We're first, second we startedfirst, second grade.

(26:49):
And then we end at eighth gradeand our kids graduate and they
usually go back to the schoolswhere they came from.
So what we do is we say if yourchild has dyslexia or
language-based learning issues,and you have what's called a
neuropsych evaluation, which isa three-day process, the child
goes through to assess, fullscale IQ, academic ability in

(27:09):
all of the subjects, et cetera,et cetera.
So that document we need to see,and if the profile is right for
our school, which they are, theyall are we welcome them into our
school.
We teach them differentlybecause we have a different
reading, writing, and mathcurricula.
We have super small class sizesand we all our teachers are
trained in how to work with kidswith dyslexia and language-based

(27:31):
learning problems.
So my role at the school when wefirst started, she said, Alana
said we need a math teacher forthe middle school.
And I was like, oh, man, really?
Because I, like I had alreadybeen hired as the fourth grade
teacher there when the schoolstarted.
Now math for me was like, not

Diamond (27:47):
I didn't know math.
would be involved in this.

Jamie (27:50):
Yeah.
Math.
I know.
Ah, I know.
In fact, your listeners are justgonna like, drop off now.
Oh, this is about math.
Like, no, I mean, it's not it'snot people's happy place.
Right.
But the thing is, like, mymentality is, yeah, bring it on
because it is such a source ofemotional stress for so many
students and adults.

(28:11):
It's actually a thing in ourculture where people brag about
being bad at math.
We all know, maybe it'sourselves.
Maybe the three of us say, youknow, I suck at math.
Like, I hated it.
I didn't get it.
I just, whatever.
And then there are some few thatlove it and they get it, and
that's fine.
I don't work with thosestudents.
I work with students that, forwhom math is not only a

(28:31):
difficult subject, but actuallyan existential threat.

Diamond (28:35):
Yeah.
I have been around a lot ofpeople now.
Most of whom have dyslexia.
It is just so.
So.
Difficult and painful, and Ifeel.
This same level.
level of frustration and kind ofterror when these kind of things
come up, it’s it’s really it’sreally difficult.

Jamie (28:56):
I cannot overstate this.
It is such a source of anxietyfor my students that I actually,
I'm not, I consider myself to benot just a content teacher, but
actually, I mean, there's a,there's sort of a a psychology
piece to, to the work that I dowith kids.
So, for example, when my kidscome into the room, They're very
agitated about, this is mathclass.

(29:17):
So one thing that I do, and I'velearned over the years, and I've
learned from many, amazingpeople who do this by through
observation and professionaldevelopment and all kinds of
things, and just failure for themost part.
You know, really just failureand just trying to do it better.
The next day when the kids walkin, I have a sheet on their desk
with maybe one or two problems,three problems that they

(29:41):
absolutely can do, and I knowthey can do it and there's not
gonna be any and they grab thepencil and they do it, and then
I take the paper and I say,amazing.
And then I give them yesterday'spapers, which I had gone through
and I've scrawled all over them.
Amazing job.
Way to go, you know, you gotthis, a big component of what

(30:01):
I'm doing in teaching in thissetting.
Is to continuously reinforceself-esteem and try to build it.
You know, that's just a big partbecause then it gets the brain
ready to take on a challengethat is difficult or annoying.

Diamond (30:15):
And, that one's like, give people victories.
Like

Jamie (30:18):
Yeah.

Diamond (30:18):
all need some victories.
You're

Jamie (30:20):
Yeah,

Diamond (30:20):
anxiety of, oh no, this is math.
I'm terrible at math.
And then, start people with, avictory, with a smile positive
reinforcement is just the wayyou gotta start.

Jamie (30:32):
It is.
And the thing is, now thismentality runs completely
counter to like historicalAmerican culture, right?
Where you gotta suffer, you haveto fail to be successful, right?
They always say in the techbusiness you, interview for a
job in so many industries, ifyou didn't fail, they won't even
hire you.
Right.

(30:52):
There's like a fetish aroundfailure.
I'm just telling you withchildren in the classroom, that
is not applicable whatsoever inmy experience.
I'm not saying you can neverfail, I'm saying you need to
build strength before thatchallenge comes.
And then when the challengecreates pushback or failure,
then they can fall back in theirmind and say, you know what?

(31:15):
I did that.
Now I can do this.
So it's a management, right?
It's not about no fail ever.
I just wanna really make thatclear because that's just, that
would be just manby pamby,right?
And the kids could smell it bythe way, right away.
They can smell BS on you thesecond they walk in the room.
Is this a straight shooter?
Is this somebody who reallywants to understand me?

(31:37):
You know, when we say kids arereally smart, that's what it
means.
Or the line kids teach useverything.
Is widely misunderstood, Thekids don't teach me anything
about math.
What they teach me is how toteach it better to them because
of the reaction I get.
You know?
In that way it's like almost anyteaching is almost like any
other performance art, you cantell from your audience how it's

(32:00):
going.

Diamond (32:01):
If I were to ask you on the topic of, mastery, thinking
about your career, thinkingabout your life, the story you
just told us, I mean, how wouldyou define your mastery today?

Jamie (32:10):
if I had to say the one thing, that I have mastery over
I really do think it's, it'steaching math to my students,
and I would say that in ageneral sense, but the way that
happens ironically is through atremendous amount of failure.
So I teach, for example, I teach45 minute classes.
The amount of prep that I do toteach six kids in one room for
45 minutes is sometimes 40minutes.

(32:34):
That's the amount of prep that Iwill do because I need to
individualize it.
I'm looking at their work verycarefully.
I'm looking at the, things thatthey're getting and I'm I'm,
also seeing some of the stuffthat they're not getting, and I
have sometimes I have tocompletely redo a lesson plan
for the day.
There's no like, okay, todaywe're on page 23.
Open your books.
It's not like that at all.

Diamond (32:52):
It's really interesting about failure.
You just, you just went on abouthow failure is the villain for
the student when it comes tomath.
But then you said a big part ofyou gaining your mastery and
teaching them math is in yourown trial and error, in your own
failing?

Jamie (33:08):
Yes.

Diamond (33:08):
That, that is wild.
You just were talking about howyou need to protect them from
their failures and give themvictories.
But the way you've gotten goodis in failing.

Jamie (33:17):
Yes.
No, but Craig and it's such agreat, it's, I mean, I really, I
appreciate you kind of surfacingthat because it's sort of
obvious, but I'm an adult.
I work with 12 year olds.
I've been through enough now toknow that failure is good, but
when you're 12 and you areexpected to do things that are,
let's face it, really unnaturalfor 11 and 12 year olds to sit

(33:40):
for 45 minutes, which I don'tever, I, my, I do lessons where
we get up, we do teamwork.
For example, to teachsubtracting decimals.
I do a store.
cause subtracting decimals ishard.
You know, you got like dimes andpennies, you got the dot
sometimes they don't really knowwhere the dot goes.
And then you got the ones andthe tens.
And I set up like a Barnes andNoble table.

(34:01):
And on post-it notes, I givethem all weird prices.
This is one of my bestactivities.
I've done it with the teachers.
I've taught this to many,teachers.
I, set up probably 15 books, lay'em all out, put all the desks
together to make one big table,lay the books out on post-it
notes, I'll write weird prices.
A dollar 23 1599$7 and 1 cents.

(34:23):
Right Now, here's the game.
All the books together, I don'teven know what they add up to,
but It's a lot.
So what I do is I give them$20,And I say, this is a game guys.
Whoever buys five books and getsthe closest to zero without
going under.
Wins a dollar.
Okay, you got that.

(34:43):
So they have to actually go doall the subtractions to figure
out how many, you know, howmany, which of the five books
they gotta do.
They're kind of talking, they'recompeting, they're doing what
they, they completely forgetthey're at school.
They're playing this crazy gamethat's totally doable for them
to do, but so engaging it playson the competitive spirit and,

(35:04):
it's really amazing.
So a kid will come, wait, I'munder, I'm negative 1 cent.
I'm like, you gotta do it again.
So that's when failure is fun,because that's the kind of
failure we're looking for, whichis to say, oh, darn it, you know
I gotta do this again.
That's a class.
I don't even speak for 45minutes.

Sterling (35:21):
One thing I'm hearing you say though, too, Jamie, is
in terms of the failure stuff,to go back a little bit, is it,
also sounded like you weresetting up a good structure to
be able to handle the failureso,

Jamie (35:31):
That's better way to put it.

Sterling (35:33):
So, so there's a, foundation there you're creating
an environment where you and astudent are just the way
failure, you know, the way ithits us is maybe it's a softer
landing, and just hearing youtalk through sort of the process
of, let me give you self-esteemfirst.
Right?
Because if you have failurewithout self-esteem, man, that's
just more low self-esteem.
Like you're, just in a crapcycle,

Jamie (35:54):
Completely.
And the thing is, one contextI'll put on this guys too is
that my school is not the firstschool that our kids go to.
In other words our kids that wehave at my school they've, had
to leave their previous schools.

Sterling (36:06):
Right,

Jamie (36:07):
They, their siblings stay because they're doing fine
academically.
This one kid.
And can you imagine?
I mean I, feel it and I, live itwith them, Even if they don't
know how much I do, feel it withthem.
Of the burden that thesechildren feel they're putting on
their own family.

(36:27):
I'm the one that had to be takenout of my school.
I'm the one who failed.
I'm, and then they walk into myclassroom and they go, what's
going on here?
I'm sure it's gonna be morefailure.
that's, the context for what Isaid before.
you said it so well.
Maury like setting up asituation to build a foundation
so that we can then experienceand persevere through

(36:50):
challenges.
Yeah, absolutely.
But there's a lot of work thatneeds to be done, you in that
area.
And it's not all psychology.
A lot of it's math working withnumbers, but You gotta do it in
such a way that the kids can gettheir hands on things.
I'm a big advocate for materialsmateriality.
The first week of my class, weactually don't pick up a pencil
really, or do much with penciland paper.

(37:10):
I introduce fractions, forexample, with balls of clay that
we make and smush onto a sheetthat has one hole.
We just make one hole and then Igive them a knife and I go cut
it in half.

Sterling (37:23):
All right.

Jamie (37:23):
now, most of them, they cut it right through the middle
one half.
It's great.
Sometimes they'll get a kidhe'll cut at the bottom and say,
oh, that's great learning,because that student actually
doesn't, they don't actuallyknow what the word half means
really.
So there's a lot of talk,there's a lot of manipulation of
materials, everything that wecan do to build towards number

(37:43):
system, which is really a set ofabstractions.
You know, what is inherent inthe squiggle of three that says
three?
Nothing.

Sterling (37:51):
Right.

Jamie (37:52):
We don't realize how much the symbolic system of math.
Is really abstract and eitherpeople get it in our education
system now in the United States,my belief we are we're, playing.
It's, just a big gamble.
It, there are kids that get it.
Kids don't get it.

Sterling (38:07):
Well That

Jamie (38:08):
okay.

Sterling (38:08):
yeah.
And that leads me to sort of aquestion we'd like to ask, which
is can anyone have mastery?
And maybe more specifically, doyou have an attitude with these
kids?
you go into it thinking that allof them are going to succeed?

Jamie (38:21):
Yeah, No, it's I'm really glad you asked that.
I, guard against thoughts likethat.
Sometimes you'll hear people ineducation say things like, all
children can succeed.
But that's a platitude I don'treally traffic in.
Like, I don't really, I don'teven think like that.
What, I think is, and I'll tellyou what I say to the kids.
I'm, sort of an honest brokerand it kind of surprises them.

(38:41):
By the way, I'm the only teacherthey got with a white beard
who's like an old guy.
My colleagues are half my age.
For the most part, they're, mycolleagues are incredibly
talented.
Well-meaning usually women inlate twenties or early thirties,
they, are like the engine thatmakes the whole thing go.
And it's really beautiful.
I'm a bit of an anomaly, right?
I'm older, I'm a career changer.

(39:02):
I did this weird business thingbefore blah, blah, blah.
So I think it gives me a bit ofa license to just be honest with
'em.
And there are two things that Isay, and sometimes it works.
And sometimes they're like,what?
Every day say.
Why do I have to do this?
Why do we have math, Why do Ihave to even learn algebra?
How to simplify an algebra,algebraic expression.
It's the most stupid thing.

(39:22):
Now, first of all I, actuallylove when they say that because
that indicates to me comfort,right?
Like they are, they feel free tokind of speak their mind, In
many classrooms, children arenot, don't feel safe enough to
speak their mind.
So I'm, I'm honored that theyactually say crap like that,
right?
So my answer is sometimestwofold, depending on the age of

(39:42):
the student.
When I've had older students,I'll say, what I'm interested in
is your future.
I'm very interested in thepresent, but I'm really
interested in preparing you forthe future.
And I gotta tell you guys, yougotta go to high school and
you're gonna go to college,okay?
And to get to that place, theseare some skills that you need to
know, and I'm trying to make itaccessible for you.

(40:04):
But let's dig in because it'sjust our future together.
You know, that I say sometimesand it's rational and they
appreciate the straight talk.
And then sometimes I just haveto kind of because it, I get hit
with it every day.
Sometimes I just have to doubledown and make a more engaging
lesson that just becomes aexhaust fumes for them.
And they totally even forgetthat, that they said it in the

(40:26):
first place.
those are my two approaches,kind of selective, ignoring, and
then straight talk from the oldman, you know?

Diamond (40:33):
So Hoops.
are gonna be people listening tothis right now.
Now there's gonna be two obviouscategories here.
One are gonna be parents ofchildren with a disability.
By the way, I was one, and Iknow Nicole is open about her
own disability, and, this mightbe a two-parter.
One is.
For those of us that are parentsthat might have a kid and you're
wondering maybe they have adisability or maybe, you know,

(40:55):
that they have one.
One might be from a, master thatworks with children with
disabilities.
the one takeaway you, you'd likethem to think about?
So two is mastery in general.
Mastery in general mastery for,anybody?
What do you know from doing yourwork with these children that
all of us can apply to our ownlives, right?
Even if we're not in the worldof education.

Jamie (41:17):
All right, so I'll address the first one first.
Which is if someone is listeningand they think that their child,
and they know that their childis having difficulty in the
classroom, in their currentschool, right.
So every situation is different,and it's really important to say
that at the outset.
There are many, many variablesthat might go into a child
experiencing difficulty in theclassroom.

(41:39):
I think the first.
Is, and I don't want this tosound like banal, but when we
experience our childrenstruggling, it creates something
in us that becomes veryirrational, very quickly.
It's really agitating becauseit's so deeply personal When
you're a parent and every parentknows this, like you can't, you

(42:01):
cannot be prepared really to bea parent because when that child
comes out and grows up, they'reso much like you Of course.
And you're like, so you can'thelp but take their difficulties
personally.
Right??
So I would say first andforemost, take a deep breath,
There are people that willsurround your child who do care,
okay?
They might not be telling youwhat you want to hear, But I

(42:22):
will share, and I I don't liketo depend on things like this.
There's way too many educatorsthat say the research shows, but
I will say that it's prettyconclusive right now for
academic interventions withchildren.
In reading in particular, firstor second grade is actually
pretty late.
So don't ignore what you know,you see, okay?

(42:42):
if you are, seeing that yourchild, and you know, because you
probably read with your child inbed, I'm not saying make'em
read.
you know, Listen to the teacher,And by the way, it's development
is different for every kid.
So I wanna say this is reallyimportant, Is that not
everyone's gonna be, theacademic intensity that's
happening across this country inkindergarten and first grade, I
think is insane.
It's absolutely bonkers.

(43:04):
And I wish against all thingsthat it would just stop, We just
are so hyper competitive.
The absolutely child needs to bea genius by the time he's six.
I mean, it's crazy.
So depend on the developmentalnatural developmental sort of
stages.
Trust your kid.
You know, on some level.

(43:25):
So what I'm saying are differentthings all at once.
Like anything complicated isfull of contradictions, you have
to look early to see if thereare reading problems,
particularly in first and secondgrade, You have to be aware,
talk to your teachers carefully,stay calm, but at the same time
have perspective know that yourchild is, well cared for.

(43:45):
The, biggest criteria actuallyfor academic success and
actually career success later inlife is the number of books in
the house.
That's, a huge, that's it,

Sterling (43:54):
it's, it's gonna, it's

Jamie (43:55):
it's, not the teacher,

Sterling (43:56):
very happy to know that she's,

Jamie (43:58):
it's not the school.
If you think about it, childrenare, you know, they watch
carefully from the absolutesplit second they can and who
are, they watching most of thetime in the early years?
Us, the parents.
So we have more, a lot moreinfluence than we think.
so, I don't know.
I hope that's helpful.

Diamond (44:14):
That was brilliant.
so now tell me in a generalsense on the topic of being a
guy who has.
Had pretty specific focus on anarea of mastery in your life,
right?
Imagine somebody listening rightnow to learn violin, is trying
to learn French, wants to grow agarden.
who knows what somebody'sinterested in.

(44:35):
what have you learned aboutgaining mastery when you think
back

Jamie (44:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I wanna I've been thinking aboutthis quite a bit because I
listened to your show and I,want to try to maybe say
something, you know, beyondlike, you know, be okay with
failure, you know, that kind, Imean, of course.
Yes.
Yes.
I would say the thing that hashelped me, the thing that I've
always been good at through tonsof failure, right?
Tons, right.

(45:00):
But one thing I have neverfailed at is collecting mentors.
I mean, I just saw wherever Iwas at, somebody older than me,
more experienced than me.
doing something that I wanted todo, and I had no, I was never
shy about grabbing them andsaying, can you teach me please?

(45:21):
And by the way, every single oneof them said yes.
And when so far like it to helpme, even though there was
nothing in it for them really.
But I'm telling you, mentorcollection is like the most
important thing.
It's gotten me, it's gotten meeverywhere.
And I'm not talking about goingfrom ad director to group,
publisher to group this to CEO.

(45:42):
That's part of it.
It's known in the business worldthat you do that.
I'm talking about somethingreally different.
I'm talking about when youoverhear somebody, you can't be
shy.
When you overhear somebody at aparty talking about something
like really cool that's been onyour mind for like six months
and they're talking to somebodyelse, I didn't care if maybe I
was a little bit rude andbudding into the conversation

(46:04):
and cornering him for two hours.
I just, and that's me.
Like, only learn from people,you know, like I love reading
books and I read themvoraciously, but it's really for
entertainment.
You know?
My learning has come from moreexperienced, frankly, more

(46:25):
accomplished and smarter peoplewho have shared their, wisdom
with me and and have taken itand cherished it and, you know,
run with it.

Diamond (46:34):
You're

Sterling (46:34):
What

Diamond (46:35):
for the wire break days I, ex I feel that the title of
mentor is a little big for me,but I'm breathing into it.
I want you to know that.

Sterling (46:46):
as Mentor.
I wanted to reflect somethingback to you, Jamie, and, but
then also reject it if itdoesn't feel right.
'cause, I think this may beeither through curiosity or my
belief and I'm not sure whichone it is.
But what I feel like I heard inyour story too was,'cause this
excites me, and I think this isa point of the podcast for me,
is being able to access, takeone thing and then have it

(47:07):
translate into that other thing.
Not, what I think I heard inyour story from advertising how
to make people excited.
Like salesmanship, right?
Is about how, to get peopleinterested in a thing to give
them in, sales it's about cash,right?
Or, purchasing or numbers.
But you took that and you gavethat to these kids too, because

(47:27):
what I'm hearing in that is anhere's the challenge.
Here's the, Here's the, theseare the group of kids I'm
working with, but how do I getthem to be excited about this
thing?
How, how do I, How do I get theminterested and curious?
That is not the obvious path.
And that the people you werelistening to, the ones you were
attracted to, were like, okay,that's a bad sales pitch.

(47:47):
Yeah, that's a good sales pitch.
'cause that, that, that makes mewant to be a part of that.
And I, don't know if that feelstrue to you, but I, that was
something I heard and you tookit from this one medium and this
one marketplace and youAbsolutely.
And I just love how it connectedthen with your parents as well.
I.
So it kind of brought your roothistory into it, and you went

(48:08):
and did this one thing in lifeand it was these feelings and
your family and who you were andyour health.
But then you took that thingthat you were working with for a
long time and gave it in adifferent presentation.
Does that feel

Jamie (48:21):
Boy, I mean you just said it better than I do.
I mean, I actually, you've hiton.
The exact thing that I say topeople.
you're, at the dinner party andsome people you don't know and
they go, you know, like, what'syour story?
What do you do?
You know, and I, so I sometimesI will say exactly what you just
said, but a little, maybe, justa little, differently.

(48:41):
I said, look, for 18 years inthe magazine business, I
basically walked into rooms ofdisinterested, hungover,
hostile, bored,

Sterling (48:52):
right.

Jamie (48:53):
irritated people, right?
I had to grab them with a levelof performance art that was
compelling and content that mettheir needs.
So how is that different fromwhat I do at my school?
It's exactly the same.

Sterling (49:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Jamie (49:10):
mean, I mean, you know, I don't know if they're hungover.
I hope they're not.
But it's basically the samementality as like, what is it?
What?
You know, and you gotta takethat what, and you gotta take
them and, you know, bring themnow.
And it's so similar in so manyways and you just completely
nailed it.
So I, really appreciate that.

Sterling (49:29):
Cool.
I was one of those kids who all,who had the mantra of, I hate
math.
Which, I loved how you talkedabout that too.
Like, that is just something wesay.
It's like a, script.
And I see, I really, in lifebeen paying attention a lot to
like, oh my God, I'm in ascript.
I'm in a societal script.
I am saying the thing I say atthis age, at this point, this
gender, this race, likewhatever, like, it's falling

(49:50):
into those traps.
And thank you because it's,it's, so much lately, my life
has been about sort of math andphysics.
Like I see it everywhere now ina way that, that's been fun.
And anyways,

Jamie (50:01):
Wow.

Sterling (50:02):
get personal about it.
Um.

Jamie (50:04):
Nice.

Sterling (50:05):
Yeah, no, it's cool.
Of sort of every action has anequal and opposite, especially
in relationship.
You know, if you push, it'sgonna come back.
If you're If I'm, resistant withmy son, I get resistance.
It's like if I'm hard, there's,he just ricochets right off of
me.
You know?
If

Jamie (50:20):
absolutely.
that in the child developmentgame, it's called escalation.
this past school year.
One of my favorites of all time,and she would come in and from,
from lunch, from a very verydifficult this, this class I
taught right after they were atlunch.
And lunch for her was actuallythe greatest terror because she
wanted so badly to make friendsand she kind of had one of those

(50:43):
personalities that was just verydifficult for other kids that
were 12 to really get with, andI could see this and it, you
know, so she would come in.
Smoke coming out of her ears.
So irritated, so annoyed.
And I, would take her aside eachtime and at the beginning, and
I'd say, I want you to breathewith me a little bit, and I want

(51:03):
you to know that, like, let'swork to do what we can to try to
sort of take a deep breath andcalm down.
Let's lower our shouldersbecause you're in a different
environment now.
And like you're totally seen,you know, like, we're gonna work
through this together.
And sometimes it worked,sometimes it didn't.
There's no magic, there'snothing magic, you know?
But I just know like she, shedid calm down and by the, and

(51:27):
she was also experiencing a lotof difficulty with the subject
of math, just specifically withnumbers and how they work in
operations and with fractionsand what a fraction even was,
and et cetera, et cetera.
But her parents told me, I mean,this is, this was a really
wonderful moment.
And we have really fantasticparents because when they, when
the students come to our school,most of our parents, if not all
really openly recognize thattheir children are seen for the

(51:49):
first time.
And appreciated.
And that's the first steptowards, you know, making
progress.
But they, the father said to meat the conference at the end of
the year, he said, our daughtercame home every night the last
two years before entering yourschool, and would scream and cry
and tear up her math homeworkand refuse to do anything.

(52:09):
Our house was turned upside downby the school experience and at
Shee.
He goes, I don't, he said,Jamie, I don't know what you're
doing, but that has not happenedonce.
And she's making progress.
She's doing the work.
Like, what do you do?
I go, well, you know, I said,it's all in her.
It's all in her, We just have tohave a little faith and, a lot

(52:30):
of patience.
And patience is not like mything.
This is the thing.
Like I'm, you know, like if youremember the story from the
media business, it, I wasn't theguy that sat there and you know,
took it very well.
You know, I didn't takedisappointment.
I didn't like being managed.
I didn't like being told what todo.
Craig remembers so like, youknow.

Diamond (52:52):
New York I mean,

Jamie (52:53):
Oh

Diamond (52:53):
Bing bad.
Boom.

Jamie (52:54):
my, my gingham shirts and my Paul Stewart suits, and I was
really, I was really, uh, I wasthe smartest guy in the room,
right.
So like, you know

Diamond (53:03):
except

Jamie (53:03):
insufferable, I'm sure at points except for Craigy.
So it was, I was really,impatient if, management was an
idiot, which of course they allwere, you know, I'm outta here,
you

Diamond (53:14):
Uhhuh

Jamie (53:14):
not saying I'm like some patient guy.
Like, I had to do tremendousamounts of work to remake my my
whole brain to, key into calmingmyself.
It was very hard, really hard.

Diamond (53:27):
hoops.

Jamie (53:28):
still, you know, not easy.

Diamond (53:30):
So.
I think I'm hearing somequalities of mastery that we're
hearing from your story.
one thing I've heard is be readyto fail, like the, like in you,
in what you're doing.
Part of it is trial and error.
We hear this a lot., I justheard one called patience,
right?
would you say that's a, that'sa, characteristic of mastery for
you to be patient?

Jamie (53:49):
I can only speak for myself because it doesn't come
to me naturally.

Diamond (53:52):
Yeah,

Jamie (53:53):
It's, that had to be a learned skill.
I don't know if most people haveto learn how to kind of just
wait and keep your mouth shut.
You know?
Like a lot of people do that.
They do that well.
Yeah.
I don't know.
You know what

Diamond (54:04):
yeah.
Then I heard

Jamie (54:06):
I didn't

Diamond (54:07):
mentorship having great mentors, right?

Jamie (54:11):
cultivating them.

Diamond (54:12):
cultivating mentors.

Jamie (54:13):
making them be your, yeah.

Diamond (54:15):
Yeah.

Jamie (54:16):
pretty aggressive,

Diamond (54:17):
Yeah.

Jamie (54:17):
paid off, you know, and they love it

Diamond (54:20):
so so hoops man.
I'm sure everybody that'lllisten to this will understand
why I love you so much.
I mean, you are, I mean thestory of the pivot is, is
hilarious and I by the way, thisis a really nice thing for us to
do together.
'cause I was there during Jamieone oh, during the gingham years
of you know, when we were doingthis thing and then, you know,

(54:43):
to, I always feel close to youat heart but to just realize the
past 15 years and just like hearthe master frankly, that you've
become at, teaching math tochildren with disabilities, had
a child with a disability.
The thought that there arepeople out there like you makes
us all happy.
I'm sure Maury as a parent of ayoung child to know there are

(55:05):
humans.
there waiting for them in theclassroom that exist like you
fricking incredible.
you and I, you have a lot ofrange, my friend.
I mean, we laugh about the sillystuff.
You go deep and, like, the factthat you're making a difference
like this is you could reallyfeel it.
I can feel it on the other side.

(55:26):
And I feel all your passioncoming, through here.
And, you know, as we come to theclose, you know, more, I'd love
to hear your, kind of partingshot to Jamie.
But Jamie, man I love youpieces.
I hope we get to see each other,you know, as much as we can
during the journey of our lives.
But thanks so much just forbeing you and being a great

(55:49):
friend.
And, you know I just think theworld of you.

Jamie (55:53):
Oh man, I love that.
Thank you so much.

Sterling (55:55):
Yeah I, I concur and I just met you.
I mean some of the things Iheard you early on in your
story, you talked about deeplistening and that, just adding
that word before listening tomake it deep listening, cause
that felt consistent againthroughout the whole story.
Like, you can only help thesekids if you can really hear
underneath.
The sort of noise of thefrustration that's on the

(56:17):
surface, you know and, samething I imagine in the ad
business, like, what's theheartbeat again?
You know, like there's, yougotta hear what they're really
asking, what they really want,and then how do you tap into
that?
But there was something aboutdeep listening that I feel like
would be a component of someonewho's really trying to have a
better solution, an accuratesolution.

(56:37):
I thought that piece of it, of,you know, a lot of this came
from listening to your owndaughter too, that personal
piece of it where allowing ourown lives to really, this seems
so stupid to say, but allowingyour own problems to be the
invitations to something biggerand better.
Like really, you know, that thething in your life that's right
in front of you and that youcare so much about, Shift the
mind, you said, and then, Imean, I want Craig covered a

(56:59):
lot.
Books.
Books.
Books and books.
And meditation.
Meditation was a part of that, apart of that shift.
So maybe we've covered it, butif we had to ask you what you
think are like three componentsof mastery, what would you say?

Jamie (57:13):
I'm pulling from what you guys said.
I mean, I, you know, becauseyour synopsis of our discussion
has been is so on point.
I mean, I, first of all,perseverance in all its forms.
I think also keeping an eye onwhere you want to be while
you're zigzagging all over theplace is, really important.
I think that applies to allendeavors that require mastery,

(57:36):
I'll say specifically inteaching I know, and it never
fails the amount that I preparefor each minute of teaching the
ratio.
In other words, the most prep,it goes great.
The more, the deeper I go on thepreparation, then the thing
sings.
In that way it's like a lot of,and I, Maria, I'm assuming that

(57:59):
you know, that you identify withthis as an actor.
Like I think about, you knowthe, there's a component of
acting to what we do.
Right, because it's not justreciting lines.
It's about truly feeling anddrawing upon your experience to
share with people so that theyconnect with it.
And when that happens, anycontent can be taught and

(58:21):
learned,

Sterling (58:21):
Mm-Hmm.

Jamie (58:22):
then the kids become Masters because they trust you.
you are pulling from all theseresources and background and
kinds of things that you livedin your life and you're
presenting it to them in a waythat makes sense to them.
So I think it's a sort of a deeplistening, but also deep
intuitiveness about About thepeople you're working with.

Sterling (58:45):
Yeah.
Awesome.

Diamond (58:46):
Mr.
Hooper, you are a gem, myfriend.
Thank you so much for taking thetime to be on Everyday Masters,
and thank you for all the workthat you're doing with the kids
out there.
We, will talk soon.
I love you very much.
Thanks so much for being here.

Jamie (59:04):
All right.

Sterling (59:06):
Such a pleasure.
Thanks, Jamie.
And now, it's time for theWrapper Upper.

Diamond (59:13):
Pretty cool dude.
Huh?

Sterling (59:14):
So cool.
So cool.
what a great human I mean,amazing story obvious for the
pivots to go from this sort ofoutward, this direction of
advertising and money andpartying and all that goes with
that world and, and not beingwith your family and sort of
that lifestyle to such a shiftin terms of what he's doing now.

(59:34):
And I just love, those storiesin general, but just a wonderful
guy.
And what he's doing now.
And like you said, that there'ssomebody out there.
You guys both hit his, like anew-ish parent with a three and
a half year old, knowing thatthere are people out there who
are trying to problem solve inthat way.
I, wrote down, I made a notelistening to him, which was my
new version maybe of if I wereto define mastery today.

(59:58):
Elegant problem solving becauseit's it's more than just the
problem solving.
It's, it, there's this elevatedway of doing it that takes it to
a new level.
That, I guess one thing thatreally came up, you know, in
listening to him, we didn't usethat word, but it's compassion
too.
You know, it's really it throughthe patience and the meditation
and the deep listening, theydidn't use that word, but it's

(01:00:20):
compassion to how we handlesense of compassion.
His, level of thought towardswhat?
Pointing at them saying You're aproblem.
And these little beings and whatthey're just the, impact of
that, and we all know as adults,kind of how much work many of us
are doing to kind of undo thatkind of stuff, to unlearn these

(01:00:40):
horrible stories.
We start telling ourselves, youknow, these habits we fall into
to cope with things that arehard for us.
So the fact he's just got thissense of like, how amazing it is
for those kids to walk into thatclassroom and be in a space
where, guess is whether it'shere or wherever, something good
is gonna happen, even if theydon't fix the math problem

(01:01:01):
they're gonna leave with.
But that guy had something thatmade me feel like Maybe it is
never math, but it's somethingelse that they have that they
attach to, that they solve aproblem somewhere else.
Anyways he was just great.

Diamond (01:01:15):
Yeah.
And Before I jump into myWrapper-Upper, like you he's a
guy like you.
I remember meeting him.
He's just like, he has that, youknow he's, got, what I want.
You know what I mean?
He always did.
He always did.
He has, this smile, he has thisintellect.
He has this attraction, thischarisma, this heart, you know,

(01:01:39):
this, like, he's got a sillinessand a depth.
he's a killer guy.
He's a killer guy, and, like yousaid, I mean, His pivot is,
fascinating.
Just'cause I think everyone gotthat.
But I mean, the guy was arockstar.
It, was a rockstar in the firstpart of his life.
And to want more, go after moreand be doing what he's doing.

(01:02:03):
I mean this is a guy that couldeven be running big companies
that's spending his timepreparing how to be clever and
creative, to activate a child

Sterling (01:02:13):
Mm-Hmm.

Diamond (01:02:14):
on something they don't wanna do that

Sterling (01:02:16):
Yeah.

Diamond (01:02:17):
You And you think,

Sterling (01:02:18):
yep yep,

Diamond (01:02:19):
that's an interesting guy.

Sterling (01:02:22):
yep.

Diamond (01:02:23):
In terms of my actual wrap up are the things I wrote
down.
I, love this.
He said don't ignore what youknow, you see.
I was like, shit.
That's, a big, that's a big linebecause I, heard that being like
It's hard to face realitysometimes.
It's hard to face the truth inmyself, in, in the world around

(01:02:43):
me.
Don't ignore what, you know, yousee is like, get out of denial,
get out of the fantasy take someaction.
You know?
So I, I, I thought that was abig line.

Sterling (01:02:54):
well, if I may jump on that too.
'cause he, kind of separatedthem.
He was like, trust your kid, butalso don't ignore what you see.
I guess what I heard in both ofthose was trust, like, trust
your kid and trust yourself.

Diamond (01:03:05):
And then I liked, I liked, this one where he said
like, it seemed like the door,doorway.
He says, I see every child.
And I was thinking, this isuniversal.
Is start with a strength, startwith a start, with a strength.

Sterling (01:03:16):
Yep.

Diamond (01:03:17):
he also started with a victory.
And you think about, all the,things we try to do.
You start with a strength.
Start with a victory,

Sterling (01:03:25):
well I, I'm, I'm I'm ponying on everything you're
saying but I think in a way that

Diamond (01:03:30):
Stop stealing my shit.
Go.

Sterling (01:03:32):
I'm not stealing it.
I'm Well, I do, I steal it andthen I make it better, but,
well, no, but I feel likethat's, that helped articulate
to me too, like part of what Iwould hope to do with the
podcast is for anybody who'slistening, like find Yeah, it's
been, find your strengths.
Like there's all this pressureput on success and what it's
gotta look like, but it may, atthe cost of you may already have
those things build off that.

(01:03:53):
So Yeah.
I really, that too.

Diamond (01:03:56):
And, by the way how, fricking funny was it when he,
draws the correlation betweenthe, the hungover pe people in
the ad world, the disinterested,hungover people that don't want
to hear what he has to say andthe kids he walks into about the
same That's, a very, that's avery funny parallel that he
draws there.
That's hilarious.

Sterling (01:04:16):
yep.

Diamond (01:04:17):
Alrightyy, dude.
Well, I love you.
Great episode with Jamie Hooper,who,

Sterling (01:04:23):
everybody.

Diamond (01:04:23):
Jamie Hooper, a master at teaching math to

Sterling (01:04:27):
Yep.

Diamond (01:04:27):
children with Disabilities.
Incredible dude.
And you're an incredible dude.
And we will see you next time onevery day.

Sterling (01:04:34):
Masters.