Episode 37 - Tony Stewart: Carrying the Tiger

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When a doctor's call on a lazy Sunday afternoon revealed that his wife Lynn had stage four lung cancer, Tony Stewart's world imploded. What followed was a six-year rollercoaster of clinical trials, spine surgeries, moments of hope and crushing setbacks as they navigated life with terminal illness. 

Throughout Lynn's cancer journey, Tony took on the role of dedicated caregiver, tracking treatments and attending appointments while attempting to maintain his own career. But beneath his composed project manager exterior, he was crumbling. It wasn't until a series of personal accidents culminated in an emotional breakdown that Tony finally admitted the truth, he couldn't do it alone. 

Tony speaks with remarkable candour about the reality of grief following Lynn's death. Despite their years of preparation and beautiful final conversations, the loss plunged him into an abyss of emotion that defied his expectations. "I will grieve Lynn for my entire life," he reflects. "The challenge is finding a way to live your new life even while you are still grieving."

The most controversial chapter of Tony's story emerged just months after Lynn's passing, when an unexpected connection with a woman named Cordelia blossomed into romance. Their relationship, founded on a shared understanding of loss, brought both healing and intense guilt. Tony describes the complex emotions of finding joy amid grief, and the judgment he faced from some friends who felt he had moved on "too soon."

What makes this conversation truly exceptional is Tony's willingness to reveal the messiness of the human experience. His journey challenges our cultural assumptions about grief timelines and reminds us that healing rarely follows a predictable path. Through his book "Carrying the Tiger" and conversations like this one, Tony offers a lifeline to others navigating similar terrain, particularly men, who often lack models for expressing grief openly.

Have you experienced grief that didn't follow the "expected" timeline? Share your story or grab a copy of "Carrying the Tiger" to continue this important conversation about love, loss, and finding your way forward.

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Visit Tony's website here

Purchase a copy of Carrying the Tiger

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Music Credit: Cody Martin - Sunrise (first 26 episodes) then custom made for me.

Disclaimer: The views, opinions, and stories shared on this podcast are personal to the host and guests and are not intended to serve as professional advice or guidance. They reflect individual experiences and perspectives. While we strive to provide valuable insights and support, listeners are encouraged to seek professional advice for their specific situations. The host and production team are not responsible for any actions taken based on the content of this podcast.

Episode Transcript

Trudie Marie (00:01):
Welcome to the Everyday Warriors podcast, the
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This podcast is aboutcelebrating everyday warriors,
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(00:26):
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(00:48):
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(01:11):
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If you're looking for aninspiring story of resilience,
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It is my memoir of hiking the1,000 kilometre Bibbulmun Track,

(03:04):
a journey that was as muchabout finding my way back to
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journey together.
Welcome to another episode ofthe Everyday Warriors podcast.
Today my guest is international.
He's calling in all the wayfrom New York, which is a 12
hour time difference for us.
So it's my morning, his evening, and this gentleman and I were

(03:49):
connected through anotherpodcast, the Life Shift podcast
with Matt Gilhooly, so just Iwant to give a shout out to Matt
for connecting us.
But I would like to welcome tothe podcast, tony.

Tony Stewart (04:01):
Thank you, trudy.
It's a real pleasure to be hereand I think it's great that you
shouted out to Matt Gilhoolyand the Life Shift, because it's
a wonderful podcast.

Trudie Marie (04:14):
It is a wonderful podcast, but we wouldn't be here
today if it wasn't for him, soI am extremely grateful for him
actually connecting us.
So your story starts back a fewyears ago now probably over 10
years ago and I'd love to hearhow your life was changed
literally in an instant.

Tony Stewart (04:31):
It was an instant it was September 28, 2014, when
my wife Lynn and I we'd beentogether about 29 years.
At that point, my wife Lynn hadnot been feeling right for five
or six months, mainlyindigestion, digestive issues,
things like that.
So her doctors had sent her toa whole round of specialists who

(04:54):
all looked from the bellybutton down based on the
symptoms that she was, havingfound nothing.
And then there was this littleknot of pain in the middle of
her back that slowly grew duringthat same period, which she
didn't pay much attention to itfirst until finally it got bad
enough that a friend said hey,you know my son is a
neurosurgeon and I know I'm aproud mother, but why don't you

(05:15):
go to him and ask him about thisback pain?
And so she did.
We were getting a littledesperate for months of not
finding anything.
He took an MRI of her spine andon Sunday afternoon and doctors
don't often work here onSundays, you know, other than
you know in hospitals and suchOn Sunday afternoon the phone
rang and it was our GP callingto tell Lynn that that scan

(05:41):
showed tumors in her lungs.
It wasn't even a scan of herlungs and in her spine, and what
we'd been chasing the wholetime turned out to be stage four
lung cancer that hadmetastasized to her spine and
that day our lives justcompletely turned upside down.

Trudie Marie (06:01):
That's devastating news to receive any day of the
week, but at home on a Sunday,like you said, the doctors
aren't working.
You know that something's notright if you're getting a call
from your doctor on a Sunday.
So what happened then?
Was Lynn able to receive anytreatment?
What happened from there?

Tony Stewart (06:21):
What happened from there was within the context of
having basically a fataldiagnosis.
We had incredibly good luck.
We were referred.
The GP, who was actually afriend of ours, referred us to
an oncologist that he knew.
We saw him a few days later andeventually not from him.

(06:41):
Through some twists and turns wefound our way to a clinical
trial at a major researchhospital near here where Lynn
was able to try a newimmunotherapy drug.
It was a new 10 years ago andit had spectacular success.
When you're living with anincurable stage four cancer as

(07:05):
we eventually learned, and ittook us months to internalize
this spectacular success isdefined as holding it down,
keeping it stable, preventing itfrom growing.
Unbelievable, hardly everhappens.
Success would be full remissionthe tumors disappear, you feel
like you don't have cancer.

(07:25):
That, of course, we were dyingfor that to happen.
It did not happen, but Lynnlived for about five more years
while those drugs held the lungcancer down.
During those same years, thecancer had so attacked her spine
that from the very beginning wehad to get intensive radiation

(07:47):
in her spine.
I mean, like the first thingthe oncologist that we went to
said was, yeah, we'll get totreating your lung cancer, but
right now we have to deal withthose tumors in your spine
because they're almost on top ofyour spinal cord and you could
be paralyzed within a matter ofweeks.
What are we going to do aboutthat?
And we scrambled.
It was like being on a rollercoaster tossed into a hurricane

(08:09):
Use whatever metaphor you want.
We scrambled to find treatmentfor that which ended up being
intensive radiation lifetime'sdose of radiation to those two
inches in her spine.
And then over the next sixyears, while the miracle drugs
were happily preventing the lungcancer from growing, we had.
Lynn had multiple issues in herspine, many operations, twists

(08:32):
and turns.
One of them went wrong.
She got sepsis, almost died,hospital delirium which is
something I hadn't known aboutwhich was scary as anything.
It was a real rollercoasterride for five or six years and I
should say all of this is inthe book I've written.
I did write a book about all ofthis sort of like yours.

(08:52):
It's based on the journals thatI took at the time, a thing
called Carrying the Tiger in mycase.
So the whole first part of thebook tells that story, the
twists and turns of what it waslike to learn to live with
cancer, but it goes on.

Trudie Marie (09:11):
Having being diagnosed with one form of
cancer is hard enough, but thento have it metastasize where
you're literally dealing withtwo aspects of the body, now
you've got it's like atwo-headed monster now and it's
hard enough for the patient.
Who's actually for Lynn,dealing with this issue of how
you know how she was going towork through this issue, but as
her husband, literally watchingthe love of your life like 29

(09:31):
years together, how was that foryou in this journey?

Tony Stewart (09:36):
It was really really, really hard, especially
at the beginning.
Now, I should say we startedout.
I at the time was in my late50s.
I had been a project manager onmany things.
I had made movies, I haddesigned software, I'd done a
lot of big projects, and so mypersonality was such that from

(09:58):
the very beginning, I saw thisas a project like another big
project.
I started Googling like crazyto learn about what the drugs
were, what the options were,what the terms meant, that the
doctors were saying to us, etc.
And that served as a hugedistraction for me.
It gave me something to do inbetween the doctor's

(10:21):
appointments and the twists andturns of treatment.
Lynn was a painter, an artistcompletely different personality
didn't behave that way at all,couldn't stand to Google these
things because she just keptreading about people dying from
what she had.
But for the whole first year,which was very much a roller
coaster ride with so many twistsand turns, I just kept saying

(10:45):
we just need to take the nextstep, we just need to figure out
what's the next step.
Here.
The big picture is imponderable.
It's impossible.
Let's not get focused on thatLike what do we do now, what do
we do tomorrow and I kept sayingto myself we can do this, we
can do this, we can do this.

(11:07):
I had a full-time job butluckily I was able to do a lot
of work from home and I hadextremely supportive colleagues
and although I was fairly wellplaced in that organization, I
didn't have anyone directlyreporting to me made my time
incredibly flexible.
So I was like working in thehospital room.
When I was there with Lynn, Iwas working in the middle of the
night at my desk, that kind ofthing and going to work and

(11:29):
going to many, many of theappointments with Lynn, because
you need a second person withyou.
It's hugely important whenyou're going to these kinds of
things to have someone elsethere taking notes, because you
the person with cancer in thiscase Lynn, the patient you've
got this huge emotional overlayand we would come back from
these meetings and disagreeabout what they had said and in

(11:51):
what order and what wasimportant, and I was consulting
the notes and things and Ididn't always know because I got
a lot of emotions going on too.
But anyway, I was hugelyinvolved.
I was there with her step bystep and I was getting more and
more tired.
We were communicating with ourfriends, and this is huge.
I want to just throw this inthere, because the story I'm

(12:12):
telling would sound like it wasthe two of us all on our own in
this little bubble.
But in fact we were very openwith our friends.
I was journaling about it in awebsite called caringbridgeorg
that we have here, channelingabout it in a place in a website
called caringbridgeorg that wehave here I don't know whether
it's international where you setup a like a Facebook kind of
thing, but you can make itprivate just for your friends
and we would post updates aboutwhat we were going through and

(12:34):
our friends could read it there.
So we were getting and theywould give us all kinds of
support back.
So we were getting that kind ofsupport.
But I was writing these postsand I did write most of the
posts and they eventually becamethe basis of my book.
I was writing these posts totell people about Lynn.
I hardly ever, when I look backat these things, when I was

(12:55):
doing the book and looked back10 years later, I realized I
hardly had written about myselfat all and during that year I
was getting strung out withexhaustion and fear and all of
these difficult emotions I washaving, that I wasn't letting
out with anyone until I startedto have a series of accidents
and one accident like unscrewingthe cap of not the radiator but

(13:19):
the water reservoir in the carwhen the thing was overheating
and any idiot would know thatthere was probably going to be
steam.
And I got second degree burnson my hand and had to go see a
specialist for weeks and wewondered whether I would need
skin grafts.
And then another time, when Iwas riding my bike in the hills
near here for exercise and Ikept going in the rain, it

(13:40):
started to pour and I didn'tstop.
I just kept saying to myselfyou can myself, you can do this,
you can do this, until Icrashed and broke three ribs and
had to be evacuated to a traumacenter.
And then I was on painkillersand Lynn was on painkillers and
it was becoming very hard for meto support her and I actually
had a kind of a breakdown.
It's just one day I justcollapsed on the bed when we

(14:03):
came back from a difficultappointment.
We still had our coats on and Istarted sobbing and I started
telling Lynn for the first timeafter 11 months of this how I
had been feeling the whole time.
I started saying I can't do thisanymore.
I feel like I've been draggingyou forward, doing all the
planning, talking you into goinginto things, talking you into

(14:24):
trying the immunotherapy becauseall of that was true.
She had been reluctant andscared and I was constantly
urging her and I hadn't beengetting help for myself and I
just couldn't do it anymore andI told her the things that had
been in my head that whole year.
I mean, like you go through ayear like this.
I'm thinking maybe it would bebetter if she died sooner rather

(14:51):
than later.
I mean, I'm doing everything Ican to help her stay alive.
I love this woman.
I do not want to lose her andI'm having these thoughts where
I can't let them out.
I didn't dare tell anyone.
I didn't dare tell her untilfinally I broke down and I
sobbed and I shared all of thatwith her and she was so
supportive and so wonderful.
She pulled me to her and shesaid she understood and then I
went and got help and in my casethat was a counselor.

Trudie Marie (15:14):
Look just inside of everything you've just said,
like what an ordeal and what ayear.
There are three things thatcome to me from what you've just
said, and the first was thatyou, when you first she first
got diagnosed, you saw it aslike a project.
Your logical, analytical mindand the way you processed for

(15:36):
work was I'm just going to takethis on like another work issue,
and I think that's reallyimportant to look at, as how
different people are affected bydifferent diagnoses or
different events in their life.
It depends on how you processinformation as to how you
respond to that.
So I found that veryinteresting.
Secondly, the website that youtalked about where you could

(15:59):
post details, and even thoughyou only posted details of what
was going on with Lynn, I lovethe idea of that in the sense
that your family and friendscould stay connected, keep
updated with what was going on,but you didn't have to repeat
that on a daily basis every timeyou see one of those friends.
The fact that they get that ina way, that's private and it's

(16:24):
detailed, but you don't have tokeep reliving the story over and
over again.
It's like you tell it onceeverybody is on the same page.
Everyone gets the same details.
I love that and I think thatthat should be into an
international standard that youcan just give information.
My my dad, is currently goingthrough some medical issues and

(16:44):
it's horrible having to repeatthat story all the time.
So just being able to not dealwith that like that, I think, is
amazing in itself, but I dofind it interesting that you
didn't share anything about howyou were coping and what was
going on with you and then thenthat obviously led to your
breakdown, and I think that's.

(17:05):
Another really important thingto highlight is that the partner
or the family member or whoeverit is going through this
experience with the patient alsoneeds to look after themselves
and take care of themselves,because this is a big deal for
them as much as it is a big dealfor the patient deal for them

(17:29):
as much as it is a big deal forthe patient.

Tony Stewart (17:30):
Yes, yes, to all three of the points that you
just made.
I think they're hugelyimportant.
And, like I said, lynn didn'trespond, didn't have the same
personality as me.
So while I'm doing all thisproject planning, she's living
with it.
But also, even if I hadn't beenthere, she never would have
been reacting the same way.
She wanted to readentertainment stories.
She wanted to readentertainment stories.
She wanted to read goodliterature.
She suddenly started wanting towatch much more TV than we had

(17:50):
ever watched, because we wouldcuddle together on the couch in
the evening.
She didn't like to watch TVuntil now, but now it was really
important just to shuteverything else out and have
time when she didn't have tothink about the cancer.
I do also want to shout out andsupport what you said.
That website is calledcaringbridgeorg and it must be
international.
All websites are international.

(18:11):
The additional huge benefit wasbecause all of our friends knew
what was happening.
Not only did they not ask aboutLynn's cancer, they talked
about other things.
The thing Lynn wanted most inthe world during that period was
to be able to have her life theway she'd always had it, which

(18:32):
meant, when she saw her friends,not to spend the whole
conversation talking about thetwists and turns of her cancer.
She wanted to be able to forgetthat she had cancer and, in
fact, was struggling and in factmaybe was severely weakened and
would spend the whole next dayin bed because of the effort it
took her, perhaps to go out toan event, but at the event

(18:53):
itself she wanted to be able tohave her life the way it always
had been, and this form ofcommunication made that possible
.
It was a huge gift.

Trudie Marie (19:04):
It is a huge gift because I think so many times,
when people get diagnosed withsomething that is terminal, that
people start behaving and Ithink it's almost natural human
instinct that you start behavinglike you don't know how to deal
with people.
You don't know what to say orwhat, how to say the right thing

(19:24):
, and I know that even just withmy post-traumatic stress
experience that people did notknow how to communicate because
they didn't want to say thewrong thing.
But people just want to livetheir lives, they want to be
normal, they want to be okay forthose, even if it's those micro
seconds or micro moments, thatthey want to still continue

(19:45):
living their life andexperiencing the joy in their
life, not focusing on thenegative.

Tony Stewart (19:51):
Absolutely.
This was huge for us.
That's sort of I call the firstpart of carrying the tiger
living with cancer.
But it's really learning tolive with cancer, learning to
enjoy your life, learning tohave life, learning to and in
fact it's thrust upon you whenyou have terminal diagnosis.
It's a truism but it's reallytrue.

(20:11):
You start appreciating theworld around you so much, every
little positive thing, everychance to have joy, every bud in
the spring, you know as theflowers come out.
All of that because you don'tknow if you're going to get
another season.
And I shouldn't speak foreveryone.
Everyone is different.

(20:31):
I know this has been true for alot of people I'm aware of and
it was very true for both of us.
I imagine that you could spiralinto a terrible depression and
not be able to enjoy anythingand that would be a very big
sadness because for us thesewere once we got past that
horrible first year, and Ishould say actually a part of
the second year was even worse.

(20:52):
But once we got past those parts, we had several years where
Lynn had rods in her back andher spine was no longer
collapsing and she wasn't goingto the hospital and we, the
tumors were being held down.
They weren't growing and theywere wonderful years.
We had grown closer togetherfrom going through all of this

(21:13):
and I thought we started out ina good place.
But we were just got you know,you're in the trenches together
and it really, really bonded usand we were enjoying every
minute all around us.
No, you don't actually gothrough every day, every minute,
thinking, oh my gosh, I have toenjoy this sunset because I
might not see another.
It's not that wild.

(21:34):
Of course.
You settle into your normallife and none of us can
appreciate every sunset thatintensely.
But those moments kept comingand kept coming and we just
loved those years.

Trudie Marie (21:47):
I love that, that you built this bond, that you
you already said you had such astrong bond after 29 years but
in those final years togetherthat it was so much closer and
stronger in that time.
You said that Lynn obviouslylived for six more years and you
had six more years of memoriesand experiences with her.
Was she stable that whole timeor towards the end did she start

(22:11):
to deteriorate?

Tony Stewart (22:13):
She started to deteriorate.
The last year was very, verydifficult and I had it's funny
when I was figuring out how totell this story in a book.
I had given a lot of space tothe first year and then to the
horrible events, hospital eventsthat were pretty horrible for
us.
That happened in the secondyear with the operation that

(22:33):
went wrong.
And then delirium we could do awhole episode about hospital
delirium that I had never heardof and it scares the hell out of
you when it happens to someoneyou love or even when it happens
to you.
It scared the hell out of Lynn.
She thought she was losing hermind.
It would never get it back.
So that's the first couple ofyears and I spend like a hundred
pages of the book going throughthat because that's what it

(22:54):
felt like.
Then we got three or four goodyears and then the, the miracle
drug, stopped working.
We, we all knew it wouldeventually stop, and we also.
It doesn't stop on a dime andyou keep hoping that you can
find a fix.
So first one tumor started togrow, but all the others were

(23:15):
still stable.
So they irradiated that onetumor.
It wasn't in her spine.
She couldn't have any moreradiation in her spine, but it
was nicely off in the corner ofher lung.
They radiated that one tumor.
They killed that one tumor.
You think, okay, great, maybewe got it, maybe the drug will
hold the others down, becausewhat happens is your cancer
mutates, just to explain this.
So the cells in that one tumorhad mutated enough that the drug

(23:37):
was no longer working on them.
But you hope that it was onlythat one tumor, that the
mutation didn't metastasize.
So then we went through a fewmonths of fear and checking and
it seemed that things were goingokay.
But then they got worse.
And then they got worse andthen she felt worse.
And then we finally had a setof scans where you go oh, my God
, now there's 20 tumors andthey're going into her bones.

(23:57):
And then you still we I keepsaying you, but everyone's
different but we, after fiveyears in which the miracle drugs
had worked, really hoped thatwe could find another miracle
drug, and the doctors wereoffering another clinical trial,
things like that.
So we tried that and it turnedout it didn't work.
But it takes months to findthat out, and meanwhile pain is

(24:20):
growing, et cetera, untileventually it got so bad that
she decided to stop treatmentand go for hospice.
That year was really horrible.
But when I wrote in the bookit's like I'm not going to do
another 100 pages of pain.
No way.
The readers just read that 100pages back.
I'm not doing that again.
So I compressed it into like 20pages.

(24:42):
So I compressed it into like 20pages.
But it was a year of steadilyincreasing pain and indignity
and fear and trying things andthen a month or two later
realizing they weren't working.
And this is what many, manypeople with stage four cancer go
through in their first year.
If you didn't, if we hadn't hadthe miracle drug, this is

(25:06):
probably what our first yearwould have been like.
It's like we're starting over.
We don't have a drug that'sholding this tumor down.
We tried some chemo.
It didn't work.
We tried a clinical trial andthen Lynn died.

Trudie Marie (25:15):
She died about 11 months after the tumor started
growing again and that's thatmust have been such an extremely
difficult time, because notonly is Lynn now in more pain
and life as she knows it isdeteriorating, but you're having
to watch her go through all ofthat at the same time.

(25:37):
How did you cope during thattime?

Tony Stewart (25:40):
I think the most important thing to say is that
we had hope the whole time,based on the experiences we had
had five years earlier.
So the coping I had already putin place put in place.
Now I'm speaking like a projectmanager.
I had already gotten atherapist that I was talking to
regularly.
I had opened up more in theCaringBridge posts.

(26:01):
They had gotten much moreemotional and open.
I did not share about mybreakdown in CaringBridge posts.
They had gotten much moreemotional and open.
I did not share about mybreakdown in CaringBridge.
It's in the book, because thebook reveals all the things that
I was afraid to share.
But I was getting much moreemotional and open and that was
supporting me.
And of course, I was taking morecare of my body, my sleep, to
the extent that I could.
But the single most importantthing is that once again it felt

(26:26):
like, okay, we have a newproject here, we have a chance
of cracking it.
But meanwhile we didn't knowit's not like we know we're
heading towards Lynn's end.
No, we know that's coming, butmaybe it won't be this year.
Maybe we'll be able to findsomething that buys us another
couple of years.
We no longer thought we wouldget five more years.

(26:46):
It just didn't seem possible.
So I coped by going back intomy project manager mode, while
also having that much moresupport and being able to talk
to my therapist every week andlet out the feelings that I
absolutely could not bringmyself to share with anyone else
.

Trudie Marie (27:01):
I think that's really important too is that for
the listeners out there who arein that circumstance where they
have a loved one going througha medical issue, is to make sure
they do look after themselves,whether that's with some kind of
therapist, whether that's thesupport of friends or family,
but whatever form that takes isthat you get some care yourself

(27:24):
to make sure that you're okaygoing through all of this with
that person, with that loved one.

Tony Stewart (27:30):
Yes, I think that's huge and it's one of the
lessons of the book.
I tried to make sure I don'tdraw conclusions in the book
because it's based on thereal-time journals and I try to
tell the whole thing in thepresent tense, even though I
added so much more material thathadn't been on CaringBridge.
And I try to tell the wholething in the present tense even
though I added so much morematerial that hadn't been on
CaringBridge.
I thought I would tell it makeCarrying the Tiger like looking

(27:52):
over my shoulder You're lookingover my shoulder through all of
these years.
But I tried to put in it theinformation that would allow you
, the reader, to reach your ownconclusions and hopefully
realize look, here I have thebreakdown.
There I get the therapist.
Now things are going better forme.
I tried to put all of thoselife lessons in there without

(28:13):
having a narrator say and, bythe way, my conclusion after
going through this is you shouldget help.
There are many books that dothat.
I wanted mine to be like.
You're with me.

Trudie Marie (28:22):
And I love that that you're on this journey
together.

Tony Stewart (28:26):
Yes, and as you read it, you don't know where
it's going to go.
I mean, you know that she'lldie I'm not hiding that from
anyone, but you don't know thedetails.

Trudie Marie (28:35):
And I suppose that brings us to the next part of
your story is that obviously youknew that there would come a
time where Lynn would leave thisearthly plane, and that has
happened.
How were you then through thatprocess?
Because that's where the realgrief then starts, because now
you're living without your lovedone by your side.

Tony Stewart (28:59):
Yes, and I do want to talk about that a lot
actually.
But I also want to say thegrief starts earlier, but it
doesn't under.
There's a thing that I'm nowstudying.
I've been reading up on grief.
I'm taking a course to become acertified grief educator now,
because I found this wholeprocess of writing the book and

(29:21):
talking about it so healing forme and helpful for other people,
of writing the book and talkingabout it so healing for me and
helpful for other people.
And I've learned about thephrase anticipatory grief, which
is a very common phrase.
Any of your listeners who knowanything have read about grief
will have heard this phrase.
So you actually do startgrieving the minute you learn
that your life has changed andLynn is going to die.
I mean, I started grieving wayback when, but you suppress it.

(29:43):
You've got a lot to do.
It's there, but it's not there.
Then hospice was so beautifulfor us and we talked.
We talked openly.
It was a wonderful experience.
We were able to talk about herdying.
I mean, like what's it going tofeel like?
What do you think it's going tofeel?
Like we didn't have an answer,but we were talking to each
other about that and I can'tbelieve this is really happening
and you seem so alive.

(30:05):
How is it possible that you'regoing to die in the next few
weeks?
Those were amazingconversations.
So when she did die, I naivelythought that maybe the grief
that would follow would be onthe shallow side, would be, you
know, like I've been grievingfor years, and we said our
goodbyes and it was a beautiful,uncomplicated death.

(30:27):
And no, as anyone can tell you,you lose someone you deeply
love and you are plunged into anabyss, a maelstrom churning
seas, every metaphor you want.
The first few days I was inshock, as people usually are.
I now know and I really thought.

(30:49):
I actually, for several daysthought, oh, it's going to be
okay.
It's going to be okay becauseI've been grieving for so long.
And we said our goodbyes Look,the sun is shining.
Look, I got on my bike and rodearound Central Park for the
first time in six months.
Oh, that felt good.

(31:11):
And then, on about the third day, I woke up sobbing at four in
the morning and that is the waymy days were for weeks and weeks
after that and discovered Icouldn't get anything done.
I would start some householdtask like sweeping or vacuuming
or something, and two hourslater sweeping or vacuuming or
something, and two hours later,find the sweeper.
It's a brand called Swifferhere.
Find my Swiffer leaning againsta wall somewhere.

(31:31):
Because, you know, after fiveminutes of doing that, my head
turned to something else and Idid something else and then I
didn't finish that job.
The dishwasher is sitting openhalf unloaded.
Because I started that twohours ago.
I mean, I was really incapableof getting anything done, and
that's the first few weeks,although in my case, I was still

(31:52):
writing posts at night and this, I think, was huge.
It helped me in the long run,but it helped me in the short
run.
I should also add.
This was during COVID and wewere largely locked down.
Lynn died in early 2021.
So the vaccines were justcoming out.
The whole previous year, thehard year, had been during
intense COVID, when there wereno vaccines.
But I was very much in anisolated kind of bubble here.

(32:14):
I didn't have a lot ofin-person visitors still.
We were all very scared still.
But because I had gottenaddicted to writing those
journal posts and because myfriends our friends had been so
supportive in their responses, Istarted writing them again.
Two days after Lynn died.
I actually wrote a post thenight she died, saying she's
gone.

(32:34):
Now.
This is horribly sad.
It happened and I guess that'sthe end of the journal, because
this was called the Lynn CotullaCaringbridge Journal and Lynn
died, but in reality of courseit had become the Tony Stewart
Journal.
I just didn't acknowledge ityet, I didn't know it.
So two days later I found myselfwriting a post.
I couldn't not write it andthat helped me and it also

(32:58):
allows me to remember so clearlywhat those days were like,
because I was writing about themevery night or two.
So I'm plunged in.
It was horribly, horribly,horribly shattering, sad,
disorienting.
I do want to say one thing it'snot linear.
It's not like, oh, you getplunged in and then a week or
two later it gets a littlebetter, and a week or two later,

(33:19):
a little better, and you startsteadily going up no, no, no, no
, no.
After, like, the first few daysfelt good when I was in shock,
and then I'm plunged in, andthen a few days later I had a
day when, wow, I didn't cry thatmuch today, maybe this isn't
going to be so bad.
And then the next day it'shorrible and I can't stop crying
and I can't get anything doneagain and it was up and down and
up and down for a very longtime, I mean like a year.

Trudie Marie (33:42):
I think that that's underestimated too.
A lot of people think thatwhether it's grief, whether it's
trauma, like post-traumaticstress, it doesn't matter what
shape it comes in.
People seem to have this ideathat any kind of recovery is a
linear process.
You're just going to keep goingup and up and up.

(34:02):
But I look at it as life is aroller coaster.
Our heartbeat is the up anddown, there is the up and downs
and the plateaus in the middle,just like on the roller coaster,
and it's about riding throughthose, but inside the
acknowledgement of what you'reriding at that particular point

(34:23):
in time, of what you're writingat that particular point in time
.
So the good days acknowledgethose good days and enjoy the
moments of gratitude and joy andhappiness that you feel.
But then if the next day is asad day or a depressive day or
an angry day because many peopleforget about the anger that
comes with grief go through that.
That's okay to have that day.

(34:43):
And then if you have a day inbetween, that's a little bit, oh
well, it's neither happy norsad or angry, it's just hum ho,
that's okay too.
Like we have this unrealisticexpectation or idea of how life
should or shouldn't be.
But if we just understand that.
It's like the waves crashing.
It's just this ebb and flow oflife.

(35:05):
There are going to be ups anddowns and it's all part of the
process.

Tony Stewart (35:09):
I think that's really profound.
I think that's extremely trueand deep and meaningful.
I can't speak to PTSD and somany other kinds of trauma, but
I know, in terms of grief,there's also this unrealistic
expect, multiple unrealisticexpectations, oh my gosh.
But one of them is that youheal, that I mean, the process

(35:32):
is a kind of a ongoing healing,but you never stop grieving.
The challenge is to find a wayto, to be able to live your new
life even though you are stillgrieving.
I will grieve Lynn for myentire life.
I carry her in my heart.
I'm in another relationship now, doesn't matter.
Lynn is there.

(35:52):
I was with her for 35 years.
That's half my life.
That's more than half my life.
At this point.
You never stop grieving, butyou do hopefully slowly reach an
ability to control the grief,to have it be a manageable part
and to have the same memoriesthat made you sob at the
beginning, because you'll neverhave that experience again.

(36:14):
Now finally be like happy.
Oh yeah, you remember when wedid this thing together and it
was such a nice day.
Well, that it was such a niceday would make me sob for half
an hour, a few months after Lynndied.
But now, a year later like itwas such a nice day.
We had a wonderful relationshipand many experiences.

(36:34):
So you're on this non neverending journey to try and get
your life together, your newlife.
But the other huge misconceptionthat people have without
thinking about it is thatsomeone else's grief will be
like their grief.
And in fact, everything I justsaid is how my grief was and is,

(36:56):
and I think the goals are truefor everyone.
But now that I've been taking acourse and learning much more
about what grief is like forother people, I've discovered,
yeah, there really are peoplewho are able to cope just three
months out, even while grieving.
That's different fromsuppressing your grief and
trying to go back to your lifeand your job without dealing
with it, which just means it'sgoing to come and bite you and

(37:18):
haunt you and mess you up formonths or years.
But there are people who manageto look as if they've come back
to work after a few months andthey've got it together.
That's just their personality.
They're able to do it.
We as a society, certainly inAmerica, expect everyone to be
able to like come out of it inthree months, six months, nine

(37:41):
months, maybe a year at the mostoh my gosh, a year has passed
and you're still crying, oryou're still unable to go by
that place, go by that locationthat you had such a good time at
, or whatever.
It's still messing you up.
Yeah, a year is a blink in theeye.
I mean, my book stops two, twoand a half years after Lynn died
and my life keeps going, andeven at that point I hadn't,

(38:03):
like, finished grieving.
It's just that I needed to stopthe book at some point.
You can't.
I'm living my life, you know.
The book stops, my life keepsgoing.

Trudie Marie (38:13):
It's so true, and I think that those who actually
talk about oh what, you're stillgrieving, or ask those
questions or have nocomprehension are those that
haven't been through anythinglike that themselves.
I don't think it's until you'veactually experienced it in some
way, shape or form, whetherit's a grandparent, a parent, a

(38:34):
partner, a child, a fur baby,for all, like what is what?

Tony Stewart (38:39):
oh, totally, you can have huge grief over over
you pet.

Trudie Marie (38:44):
Yeah, it's a process of experience and it's
often, yeah, the words that comeout of like you should be over
it or it should be a certain way, comes from those people who
have yet to experience that kindof loss in this lifetime.

Tony Stewart (39:01):
I'll throw another phrase out.
It's a terrible thing to say.
Is at least Almost any responsethat starts with at least Well,

(39:21):
at least you had a lovely longlife together.
At least she begins with thephrase at least don't say it,
because everyone's grief istheir grief and it is their
biggest grief, and they do notwant to be compared to anyone
else.
They are going through hellright then.
Don't try and tell them they'renot or that their grief should
be less than someone else'sbecause of this ameliorating

(39:42):
factor.
That doesn't mean anything tothe person who is grieving.

Trudie Marie (39:47):
A hundred percent.
There are other ways of beinggrateful in a situation or
finding gratitude in moments,but often it's not in that
moment of absolute despair.
You find that at the end ofthat despair you then start to
look for the gratitudes toactually lift you back up.
But when you're in this, you'reright.
When you're in that slump ofthe roller coaster or you know

(40:10):
the bottom of the well, youdon't need to be told that sort
of thing, no.

Tony Stewart (40:16):
No, you just you kind of just want to be, let
alone you don't want people totry to fix it.
What I wanted most in thosefirst months was to be able to
talk about Lynn and to havepeople acknowledge that I had
gone through a big loss.
I was very, very lucky becauseI was writing these posts on

(40:40):
CaringBridge and I was able tosay what the day felt like and
how much I missed her and whatmy grief was like, and friends
would write comments back thatwere like gold to me.
Most of us don't have that.
I can't imagine it's justanyone else managing to be in a
spot where their beloved onedies and they're writing posts

(41:02):
that their friends read everyday or two.
It's just an accident of mypersonal journey that I had
gotten addicted to writing themin the years leading up to that
and it was a natural thing tokeep going and my friends were
reading them and were able tocommunicate back.
But I will say one of thethings that I really remember
vividly from that first fewweeks was I had friends in this

(41:25):
building I'm in an apartmentbuilding with multiple flats
Friends who invited me over oncea week for weeks after Lynn
died A lovely gesture to havedinner with them, and so the
first time I go there, lynn'splace at their table is empty.
We've been seeing them foryears.
Right, there's a.
The place she always sits isempty.
It's horribly sad.
I came back home sobbing and Irealized maybe after the second

(41:50):
or third week we weren't talkingabout Lynn.
We were all uncomfortabletalking about Lynn.
They were probably on eggshellslike what do I say?
I don't want to set Tony off.
And so the next time I went Isaid I'd like to talk about Lynn
.
Could we spend a few minutestalking about Lynn?
And we did.
And it was wonderful and it wasthe first time I came home

(42:12):
after that dinner that I didn'tsob and sob and sob right away,
because they helped me keep heralive.
You know that's what you want inthose first months and months,
as you're slowly coming to termswith the fact that she's not
alive, that she's not with youanymore, which of course is
setting you off all the time.
It's not like you don't knowthat, but I was looking for

(42:35):
everything I could do to hold onto her and not have to let her
go in an instant, and insteadthat next year or two was a year
of slowly, slowly letting go,not needing to talk about her as
much, eventually being willingto get rid of a lot of her
clothing.
The first few months, thishouse was full of medical

(42:56):
supplies and I couldn't get ridof them.
It was weeks before I was ableto get rid of the stacks of
adult diapers and things that wehad to have in the house.
I gave them to a charity thatcould use them, but at first I
couldn't touch anything.
But then, oh my gosh, herclothes in the closet.
Gosh, her clothes in the closet.

(43:22):
It was a solid year, at least,before I was willing to start
giving some of them away, and Istarted with things that were
very meaningful to her, thatother friends would want, like
her favorite scarves that werebeautiful, and so I put a
message out to all of ourfriends who frequently used to
comment on Lynn's beautifulscarves we would bring them back
.
We used to go to India and Asiaa lot, and one of the things
we'd bring back are theseamazing, wonderful scarves that
you could pick up for just a fewdollars there.

(43:42):
So I started giving those away,and my friends loved it because
they could now wear one ofLynn's scarves as kind of a
keepsake and that made me feelgood and that was the toe in the
door that allowed me to startgiving away more stuff.
But that took a few years but Iwas slowly working towards

(44:05):
being willing to let go of somany of the physical
manifestations of Lynn.
I kept a lot.
I don't want to get rid ofeverything, you know.
I want her all around me, butnot like when she lived here.

Trudie Marie (44:12):
And that's totally understandable.
I think that, yeah, like theother misconceptions about how
to grieve or how to deal withthe loss of a loved one is it's
okay to still have them around,in whatever shape that takes.
It might be one item, it mightbe many items, but there is a

(44:33):
process that you have to gothrough to get to that point.
And the other thing I want tokind of bring up now is and
you've mentioned it previouslyis that for many people dealing
with the loss of a loved one andyou're in that grief and you
don't know how to live lifewithout them, how do you then

(44:53):
move into that place where yousaid you're now in a new
relationship, like what was thatlike?

Tony Stewart (45:01):
That was horribly confusing and guilt ridden.
During hospice, lynn and I hadopen conversation, in fact a
beautiful conversation, in whichshe did say I want you to have
another girlfriend after I die.
Then she immediately shook herhead and said no, I don't want
you to have a girlfriend ever.
Then she said no, no, I do wantyou to have a girlfriend.

(45:24):
No, no, no, I don't ever wantyou to have a girlfriend.
And then finally, yeah, I'mwilling for you to have a
girlfriend.
I want you to have a girlfriendwhich encapsulates so much
wanting to hold on to me foreverbut also wanting me to be able
to have a life again.
I was only in my 60s, you knowthere's a lot of life ahead.
So she gave me that gift thatmany people do not have, this

(45:46):
explicit willingness.
But of course, we thought wewere talking about two, three,
four years down the line.
In fact, I had said in thatsame conversation she said what
do you think will happen to you?
And I said I had said in thatsame conversation she said what
do you think will happen to you?
And I said I'm going to beunbelievably sad for a year, two
years, I have no idea how long,but eventually.
Yeah, I hope to find someone,and that's when she said those
things.

(46:15):
Just two months after Lynn died,I sent an email.
I sent a lot of emails out toinvite people to a Zoom memorial
for her, which turned out to bea wonderful thing.
I highly recommend Zoommemorials.
We were in COVID then.
I didn't have a choice, but itturned out to be fantastic
because you can have so manypeople talking and they don't
all have to fly to the sameplace to be there.
And it was great of people,including a woman who was an

(46:39):
acquaintance that I actuallyhadn't seen in 40 or 50 years
since we were kids, but I hadbeen in touch.
I'd remained in touch with herfather, who lived and worked
near us all these years, andwhen his wife died, this woman's
stepmother, lynn and I, hadgone to their zoo memorial.
So I returned the favor.
Lynn died just a few monthslater.
I emailed the kids in thatfamily and their father to say I
loved the memorial you did.
I'm doing one for Lynn, eventhough you didn't know her.

(47:02):
You're welcome to join.
And she Cordelia is her namewrote me back an email.
Oh, she suggested a poem thatwe could use and I wrote her
back.
No, lynn, and I picked out apoem by EE Cummings.
It goes I carry your heart, Icarry it in my heart.
It's a lovely poem.
And she wrote back to me.
Oh, dear, dear Tony, that poemmeans a lot to me.

(47:26):
My husband and I had it read atour wedding and now he's just
told me he's leaving me after 32years of marriage.
And I wrote back to her oh myGod, you years of marriage.
And I wrote back to her oh myGod, you're going through deep
grief, just like I am.
And we started writing theseemails back and forth.
She didn't live in New York,she lived a thousand miles from
here.
We started writing these emailsback and forth about what it

(47:47):
was like to go through our dayhere.
I had stumbled onto someone whowas going through what I was
going through.
It's not exactly the same, butit's extremely similar when it's
not your choice to get divorcedand your husband says he's
leaving and it means that allyour dreams.
The thing about grief is thatit's very much based on the loss

(48:08):
of the future that you imaginedand hoped and dreamed for.

Trudie Marie (48:11):
A hundred percent and no one talks about that.

Tony Stewart (48:14):
Yes, so I've lost.
I had years to get used to this, but I've lost the future that
Lynn and I once hoped we wouldhave.
Cordelia had a month to getused to this and was losing the
future that she had thought shewas going to have.
So we connected over our griefand we started talking more.
And then we started talking onthe phone and then one day she

(48:35):
stopped me in the middle of asentence and said Tony, are you
feeling what I'm feeling BecauseI'm getting a big crush on you,
which was one of the bravestthings that anyone has ever said
to me.
I don't know if I would havehad the guts to ever say that to
a woman that I was feeling thatway about.
I'm a pretty shy person and Iadmitted that, yes, I am too.
And we started admitting that wewere getting attracted to each

(48:57):
other and at this point it'slike an inside out attraction.
You know, you imagine you'regoing to meet someone from
dating on a bar, from a sharedactivity, where you know them
and you see them and you'rephysically attracted.
And in this case I barely knewwhat she looked like.
I knew what her Facebook photoslooked like, but I was
attracted to the inner personand she had been asking me about

(49:19):
Lynn.
This is amazing.
The thing you want most in theworld when you're newly grieving
is for someone to ask you totalk about your late wife.
And Cordelia just instinctivelydid that.
She never took a grievingcourse, she just instinctively
did that.
Like, tell me about Lynn.
I want to know who you're doingall this grieving for.
And I would tell her storiesabout who Lynn was and what we

(49:41):
had gone through, and then Iwould start reading her
CaringBridge posts that I hadwritten so she could get a
feeling for what hospice hadbeen like.
So we're sharing all of thisand we really started to get
this huge attraction for eachother.
And she was coming to New Yorkin May because she has friends
in this part of America, and sowe agreed that we would get

(50:02):
together and it was pretty clearto us that we were going to go
to bed.
Lynn's memorial was in April.
I had her urn sitting on mydresser.
Cordelia came and we fell intobed.
I mean there was this hugephysical attraction.
Cordelia came and we fell intobed.
I mean there was this hugephysical attraction and suddenly

(50:24):
I'm in the middle of like beingin bed with her when I think,
oh my God, that's Lynn lookingat us and I'm talking quietly
and softly now.
But it was this horrible shockof guilt, shame, betrayal.
It doesn't matter that she hadgiven me permission, I felt like
I was betraying Lynn and worst,lynn and I hadn't been able to
have fun sex in years because ofthe physical changes.

(50:45):
We had sex, we had intimacy,but the whole other talk about
what you do with that.
It was very important to us tocontinue to be intimate, but
here I was sort of romping onthe bed in an uninhibited way
with a woman who didn't havethese physical issues and I
thought, oh my God, lynn iswatching me have more fun in bed

(51:06):
with Cordelia than I've hadwith Lynn in a long time, which
felt great for me.
I really missed it, but it wasthe worst betrayal.
So that's how our relationshipstarted, with these two layers A
deep intimate connection, thefact that it was too soon by any
measure, the fact that becauseof that intimate connection, I

(51:29):
felt like there was somethingthere that was so special that I
didn't want to let go of it andshe didn't want to let go of it
, even though we both knew we'reon the rebound.
This is crazy.
Probably this will flare andfade, but we kept going Then for
the next year and a half, andthe book covers this whole year
and a half because I think it'sreally important.

(51:51):
I went back and forth up anddown between feeling like this
is great, this is working, I cando this, and, oh my God, she's
driving me crazy, she's annoyingme.
She's not Lynn.
I mean, it took me a while andit was actually in the course of
journaling about it that Iwould reach the realization.
What's bothering me, when youcome down to it, is that she's

(52:13):
not Lynn.
When you come down to it isthat she's not Lynn.
All these things about Lynnthat I had fallen for Lynn, for
a sort of an ease in the world,a quick smile, a really light,
sharp sense of humor, thosearen't Cordelia's strengths.
She's a lovely person, ofcourse, she has a sense of humor
, but she didn't have Lynn'sstrengths, doesn't have Lynn's
strengths.
She's got different qualitiesthat were attracting me really

(52:35):
strongly, but every now and thenit's like the fact that she
didn't get a joke of mine or thefact that she was like in my
way in the kitchen.
I have a small kitchen.
It's easy to be in my way.
These would really piss me off.
And we then had to go throughthe ups and downs of that and
luckily she liked to call me outon it.

(52:56):
What's happening, tony?
You seem to be going.
This last few days you haven'tbeen nice to me.
What's going on?
Which is huge?
I mean, if she had had adifferent personality, we would
have broken up, because the factthat she asked me those
questions allowed me to realizewhat I was doing.
But it took years.

Trudie Marie (53:14):
I find that really interesting, just that whole
journey that you've justdescribed in the fact that it's
going through that process of,yeah, the grief and everything
that you're going through in theloss, and then you happen to
miraculously meet somebody elseand those feelings of guilt like
we are still human beings atthe core, regardless of what

(53:38):
emotion we're going through, andit's a natural instinct that
you would want to continue somekind of intimacy moving forward.
But then feeling that that guiltand shame of, especially with
your, when you're with somebodyfor like 35 years and you've
only known that person, you'veonly known how to be with that
person, you're comfortable withthat person and then all of a

(54:02):
sudden somebody's new there andit's a whole new nuance, it's a
whole new dance that you have tolearn the steps to and it's
okay, like there is nothing tosay that that's right or wrong
in that situation.
But then also the fact thatbecause of that 35 years with
somebody and they know you andyou know them, that anybody new

(54:24):
is like are they stepping intothis space, this void that needs
filling, or are they?
Am I creating something newwith them to experience life in
a different way that for thelast 35 years I haven't
experienced.
So now this is my time to livea new aspect in a new direction.
I can speak for that.
Like having been married twicebefore life with my ex-husband,

(54:47):
the father of my children, iscompletely different to the life
I'm experiencing with mycurrent husband now, and neither
of them are right or wrong.
But it's almost like when youget divorced it's kind of okay
to then go and be in anotherrelationship, like life
continues on, but when you losesomebody it's almost there's a

(55:10):
whole different feeling aroundthat as to whether or not you
should or shouldn't move on.

Tony Stewart (55:16):
Absolutely, and I didn't even mention that my
friends, Lynn's friends, splitinto two groups.
Now I will say they did notostracize me and I was writing
about Cordelia on CaringBridge.
Eventually it took me weeksfrom when that attraction

(55:36):
started before I admitted onCaringBridge that this was
happening, because this wascrazy and I didn't want people
to think I was abandoning Lynnand all the complications.
But the first time thatCordelia and I went in public to
an art opening where Lynn'spaintings were being shown,
there was a partialretrospective.
It was organized very quickly.
It was just that summer, likein July, and Lynn had died in

(55:58):
February and I had met Cordeliain person in May and I had
written about her.
So this was the first time we'dbeen in an event with.
Lynn's sister was there, Variousfriends were there and you
could absolutely see, likeLynn's sister, who I'm
reasonably close with now, butthat was a horrible time for her
, Like Lynn's sister, who I'mreasonably close with now, but
that was a horrible time for her, and she was like looking

(56:19):
daggers at us across the roomand wouldn't come near us and
turned her cheek away when Itried to kiss her.
I mean, I wasn't going to kissher on the lips, but you know,
like barely let me kiss the sideof her jaw and then got away
from me as quickly as she could,and but also you can really
understand that that's her ownsister that I'm not with, but
even some of my artist friendsit's like they really didn't

(56:41):
like this.
But luckily one of the husbandsin one of those couples where I
knew that his wife was feelingreally uncomfortable, he took me
aside and said Tony, it's justtoo soon, Meaning you just need
to give it time, it will allwork out.
Don't worry it time, it willall work out.
Don't worry about Monica, itwill all work out.
And he was right.

(57:02):
And Monica and Bob remain verydear friends now and Cordy and I
have been over, had dinner withthem many times in the years
since then.
But that first year a lot ofour friends had trouble because
the you know what the hell areyou doing?
As if she, as if Lynn werestill alive, as if Lynn were
still alive and I were cheatingon her.

Trudie Marie (57:22):
And I think that that's the hardest part in
realizing that is that it hasnothing to do with you and it
has nothing to do with Cordeliaand that relationship.
It has to do with the fact thatthat presence of Cordelia alone
is a reflection that Lynn is nolonger around and people are

(57:44):
caught up in their own grief ofthat's not Lynn and I'm not okay
with her not being around andthat's an automatic reaction
that it has nothing to do withyou and the relationship and
everything to do with them andtheir loss and the way they're
processing the grief, becauseCordelia being on the scene

(58:06):
means it's a fact that Lynn isno longer with us and life has
changed and people resist thatchange.

Tony Stewart (58:14):
I think that's really insightful, what you just
said, and I hadn't realized it.
I've thought about this a lotin the last few years without
ever realizing it quite that way, and I completely agree with
you, of course.
Of course I do know I've heardin my grief course that when
people try to minimize bycomparing a loss so oh, your

(58:38):
loss isn't so bad, that was onlyyour, whatever your aunt, I
just lost my wife.
Where?
To an outsider?
If you want to do this sort ofbalancing, I get where that's
coming from.
But what it really means istheir grief for their wife has
not been witnessed enough andthey want to say I'm not done

(58:59):
grieving for my wife, so I don'twant to give you the space to
grieve for this person.
It's so much about their ownpersonal grief.
And in this case, what I hadn'tthought of is, of course Monica
was grieving Lynn.
She was very close to Lynn andLynn wasn't there and I was
rubbing her nose in it, so tospeak, by bringing a different
person.
Would have been much better ifI'd shown up alone, because then

(59:22):
Monica and I would be on thesame page looking at the empty
spot that Lynn should bestanding in.
But instead I bring this person.
I appear to be happy.
Monica doesn't know, didn'tknow what I was going through
and how complicated it was forme.

Trudie Marie (59:44):
She just sees it as if I've turned the page like
oh wow, Tony's moving on, howdare he.
And everybody has their ownjourney and no two journeys are
ever alike.
Yes, you're both dealing withloss, but loss comes in and the
feelings that come with thatcome in so many different forms
for every single individual andpeople.
I don't like to say should theword should should be eliminated
from the vocabulary of humanity, but people, if people would

(01:00:04):
could only be more understandingthat whatever grief journey
they're on, or whatever journeythey're on in life in general,
it's their journey and it's notright or wrong that somebody
else is on their journey and howthey experience life.
Take what you can, share whatyou can, and if you don't like

(01:00:26):
it, leave it.
It doesn't matter.
At the end of the day, yes, yes, words of wisdom.
Trudy, I'm going to have tostart listening to more of your
episodes because I think thatyou such a beautiful, vulnerable
, generous story that for manypeople, like women and I speak

(01:01:03):
this as a woman that we arequite nurturing, quite talkative
, quite supportive of oneanother going through these
moments of incredible pain andsuffering through our life.
But for most men there seems tobe this shield or this wall that
you don't do that, and the factthat you were able to write

(01:01:25):
about it, the fact that you wereable to talk about it and now
produce a book about it, is likeyou are the avenue and the
light for so many men movingforward that it is okay to feel
all these things in whateverpart of the journey you're going
through and whatever howeverthat loss looks whether it's the

(01:01:45):
loss of a wife, a loss of achild, a loss of a parent or,
whatever the case may be, a bestfriend like I know now that my
dad lost somebody actually sawsomebody die next to him in a
work situation more thanprobably 40 years ago now but my
dad still carries that griefbecause he was never able to

(01:02:07):
process it in the way we processthings today, because we never
talked about it, and I thinkthat that's where your book and
your writing and who you are asa human being is that you are
giving a light to men inparticular going through this
process.
That that's your new purpose.
That that's why you experiencedwhat you did with Lynn is to

(01:02:30):
give men a space that it's okayto feel all the feelings.

Tony Stewart (01:02:37):
I think that's kind of wonderful.
In writing the book I wasn'tthinking about gender, I would
say.
I wrote Carrying the Tigerspecifically to do everything
you just said, to reveal what ithad been like for me, what my
feelings had been like, whathappened as a result good and
bad and eventually I think it'sall good in the end.

(01:03:00):
I think my, my, my journey, mystory, is one in which, having
stumbled into so many rightthings not because I'm a genius,
not because I'm a therapist,but because I had the good luck
and instinct or whatever I thinka lot of it is luck to go down
that path, to start writingCaring Bridge and then
eventually to get teased intobeing more emotional, being more
revealing about my emotions allof that I wanted to reveal how

(01:03:24):
helpful that had been for me, aswell as what the obstacles were
that came up and what it waslike to try and deal with them.
And it never occurred to meuntil after I published the book
that the fact that I'm a mandoing this is a whole other
layer on top of it, because itis really unusual, Almost all of

(01:03:46):
these stories are told by women, to the extent that they're
told at all.

Trudie Marie (01:03:50):
I tend to agree and I think that that's the
incredible part of your story.
So I will definitely have allthe links to your book and to
your website and I think for anyof the listeners out there who
have men in their life who arestruggling with grief, then go
buy a copy of Tony's book andjust find a way that the men in

(01:04:12):
your life can cope through thisyou know, incredible journey of
whatever they're going through.

Tony Stewart (01:04:19):
I hope so.
The book is called Carrying theTiger.
My personal website isTonyStewartAuthorcom.
It's in wide distribution.
You can get it on Amazonworldwide.
It's available everywhere, atleast that a US-based author is
able to make a book available,and I should say it is available
as an e-book and also as anaudio book.

(01:04:41):
So it's on Spotify and Audibleand Carrying the Tiger.
If you search for it, you canfind it.

Trudie Marie (01:04:47):
And I'm sure because my podcast is listened
internationally, so I'm surethat no matter where you are in
the world, you will be able tofind a copy.
Thank you so much forgenerously giving your time and
sharing your story with me.
I am forever grateful for Mattconnecting us, because I think
today has just been a wonderful,evocative story of going

(01:05:11):
through the world of grief.

Tony Stewart (01:05:14):
And you're very welcome and I completely agree
what a great conversation, whata great time we've had.
Thanks, matt.
I wonder if you'll listen.
We love you.

Trudie Marie (01:05:26):
And I always love to finish the podcast episode by
asking what is the one thingyou are most grateful for today?

Tony Stewart (01:05:45):
today Most grateful for.
I'm grateful to be alive andit's funny because I never would
have imagined I would say thatbut having been with someone who
died, the simple fact that I'mhere, that I'm able to enjoy yes
, I'm grateful for Cordelia, I'mgrateful for my cats, I'm
grateful for nature, I'mgrateful for the sunset and the
flowers and actually I'm intowild things too, not just
flowers.
I'm grateful for all of that,but the core of it is I'm able

(01:06:09):
to still be here and have thislife for a while longer.
And if I can help people withmy book and these podcasts, I'm
grateful for that too, becauseit gives a purpose to my life.
But simply being here, when Isee how it will end, it will end
for all of us.
It has ended for people we love.

Trudie Marie (01:06:32):
I'm grateful to still be here.
Thank you for tuning in to theEveryday Warriors podcast.
If you have an idea for afuture episode or a story you'd
like to share yourself, thenplease reach out and message me,
as I am always up for real, rawand authentic conversations
with other Everyday Warriors.
Also, be sure to subscribe sothat you can download all the

(01:06:57):
latest episodes as they arepublished, and spread the word
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too.
If you're sharing on socialmedia, please be sure to tag me
so that I can personallyacknowledge you.
I'm always open to commentabout how these episodes have
resonated with you, the listener.
And remember lead with love asyou live this one wild and

(01:07:20):
precious life.